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Ser Scot A Ellison
April 22nd, 2011, 12:42 PM
Okay, with the video clip we are treated to it is established that some decades after the survivors of Destiny arrive on Novus Young is still the "Leader" of the group. I'm curious to see if they set up some democratic system for selecting leaders or if he maintained his control based upon his commission and his original appointment as the commander of the Icarus Base.

What does everyone think. Once they were perminantly stranded on Novus with no hope of return to Earth or communication with Earth is it time to form a more normal government for those who are living there?

tomstone
April 22nd, 2011, 12:52 PM
Okay, with the video clip we are treated to it is established that some decades after the survivors of Destiny arrive on Novus Young is still the "Leader" of the group. I'm curious to see if they set up some democratic system for selecting leaders or if he maintained his control based upon his commission and his original appointment as the commander of the Icarus Base.

What does everyone think. Once they were perminantly stranded on Novus with no hope of return to Earth or communication with Earth is it time to form a more normal government for those who are living there?

Young seemed pretty old in that recording, so they probably thought of his replacement near his death. It maybe that they appointed Youngs Kid as his Followup. That would explain why the scientists did not accept it and build their own Goverment where People get selected by choice, not by heritance.

traylormatt
April 22nd, 2011, 01:03 PM
Young seemed pretty old in that recording, so they probably thought of his replacement near his death. It maybe that they appointed Youngs Kid as his Followup. That would explain why the scientists did not accept it and build their own Goverment where People get selected by choice, not by heritance.

I doubt they would have put Young's children in power. that is not how the military works nor is it how the US works so I doubt anyone would have gone for that unless he was proven to be a very good leader somehow.

I personally believe they may have established some kind of high council type scenario. things will be elected on and though Young may be the head of it, most things will be put down to a vote of sorts between those that already seem to have a say in the current Dynamic. Wray, Eli, Chloe, Matt, TJ, Greer, Voulker, Brody and who ever else. Maybe not so many, but you get my meaning. A high council of sorts.

tomstone
April 22nd, 2011, 01:19 PM
I doubt they would have put Young's children in power. that is not how the military works nor is it how the US works so I doubt anyone would have gone for that unless he was proven to be a very good leader somehow.

I personally believe they may have established some kind of high council type scenario. things will be elected on and though Young may be the head of it, most things will be put down to a vote of sorts between those that already seem to have a say in the current Dynamic. Wray, Eli, Chloe, Matt, TJ, Greer, Voulker, Brody and who ever else. Maybe not so many, but you get my meaning. A high council of sorts.

Then why where there 2 Goverments if they all worked together?

spaceship
April 22nd, 2011, 01:32 PM
Do you really need a government with 80 people?

s09119
April 22nd, 2011, 01:48 PM
Do you really need a government with 80 people?

Yes.

And the caption said it was the 14th election he was speaking at, didn't it? That would imply they had a functioning democracy in which a majority continually elected Young as their leader.

Shylodog
April 22nd, 2011, 02:30 PM
Yes.

And the caption said it was the 14th election he was speaking at, didn't it? That would imply they had a functioning democracy in which a majority continually elected Young as their leader.

Caption? I missed something. Time to watch it again...

The Destiny
April 22nd, 2011, 02:31 PM
There was a caption? I dont remember a caption.


I think it would be a meritocracy; appointed because of merit, not by birth, power or your old military rank. The best leader simply gets the job.

Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble
April 22nd, 2011, 02:36 PM
He was the best man for the job.

The Destiny
April 22nd, 2011, 02:45 PM
He was the best man for the job.

It took him about a season, but yeah, he was most likely the best man for the job and just continued to be their leader after leaving destiny where he was appointed leader ( by the military ).

traylormatt
April 22nd, 2011, 02:59 PM
Then why where there 2 Goverments if they all worked together?
Because maybe a massive divide became apparent. not just "I think we should dedicate more time to building new houses" "well I think we should dedicate more time to improving our power sources" or what ever.

they may have been arguing over something more to do with core values. There could be any number of reasons.

and I think you do need a government of sorts with 80 people or a few hundred, but I can not imagine it being any kind of government like we have today. Something much simpler where every person truly does have a voice but there are those that simply run the situations they get given.

For instance, they probably wont be needing a chancellor of the exchequer any time soon or any government officials to deal with pensions. But they may still just nead leaders so they all work towards a common goal, and it may have been those goals that people eventually divided on.

s09119
April 22nd, 2011, 03:53 PM
Caption? I missed something. Time to watch it again...

Watch the episode with subtitles on.

morrismike
April 22nd, 2011, 04:00 PM
Young seemed pretty old in that recording, so they probably thought of his replacement near his death. It maybe that they appointed Youngs Kid as his Followup. That would explain why the scientists did not accept it and build their own Goverment where People get selected by choice, not by heritance.
I doubt the division was science vs. everyone else.

The Destiny
April 22nd, 2011, 04:29 PM
Watch the episode with subtitles on.

it isn't in the actual show, just in the subtitles? Either the subtitle guy made it up or something or he was told to add it.

Nth Chevron
April 22nd, 2011, 04:29 PM
Speaking of Brody;

http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=148&pos=227

I knew i'd heard that voice before :)

N.C

Ingsoc
April 23rd, 2011, 03:25 AM
And the caption said it was the 14th election he was speaking at, didn't it? That would imply they had a functioning democracy in which a majority continually elected Young as their leader.

Base on the fact that a group had decide to abandon the main group and form their own government and the fact that apparently Young manage to won 14 elections in a row (!!!) I would put much faith in the fairness of those "elections".

morrismike
April 23rd, 2011, 04:43 AM
Any time you have more than 2 people in an organization they'll be divisions. Google up the parable of the ant and the grasshopper to see what likely happened.

The most likely source of conflict was a portion of the population would be working their asses off providing and another portion wasn't. Look at America, 45% of households pay no federal tax outside of fica/medicade and those people elect folks that try and push that 45% to nearly 100%.

D Toccs
April 23rd, 2011, 05:07 AM
Then why where there 2 Goverments if they all worked together?

There weren't two governments until the split occurred.

I would say that the original crew probably had a fairly communal society. Probably similar to the dynamic they had on the ship, only with more freedom for the redshirts. Each person would contribute in whatever way they could with all produce going to the group. It would realistically be the only way such a small group could thrive under the circumstances.
Young was probably "the leader" but most decisions would be made by a council of sorts as Taylormatt said.

Once the split happened and the original crew and their immediate descendants passed away and the two societies began to grow, prosper and become fully fledged civilizations the type of government probably changed to suit the new situation. We don't know what governmental system was employed by either nation on Novus in the present day.

Hopefully we will learn more next episode.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 23rd, 2011, 07:22 AM
I'm more curious in light of the debates from last year whether those who supported Young's authority, without question, would say his authority continues on Novus? If not, why not?

traylormatt
April 23rd, 2011, 07:58 AM
I'm more curious in light of the debates from last year whether those who supported Young's authority, without question, would say his authority continues on Novus? If not, why not?

My apologies, I did not read those debates. Do you mean gateworlders not questioning or do you mean the crew on Destiny not questioning Young now they are on Novus?

qingdom
April 23rd, 2011, 08:02 AM
I'm quite interested which of the two groups had control of the gate.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 23rd, 2011, 08:07 AM
Traylor,

Gatworlders. Many maintained Young was the man because Earth had left him in charge. That elections are wrong because they are all under military authority. I wondered if that would still be true on Novus and for those who Young selected to suceed him.

Duneknight
April 23rd, 2011, 08:24 AM
The political division is still there for 2000 years, must be because of other deeper issues than ones started by the destiny crew. Who knows what. They are so different from us in their understanding of things. They dont seem to have christians or any religious among them. Why is that? Did they know of Earth? Did they have a terrorist groups or armies who worship Rush? Rush being a messiah figure could have pushed some into doing bad things.

traylormatt
April 23rd, 2011, 08:28 AM
Well undoubtedly Young should have stayed as leader whilst still on Destiny especially considering the threat of attack. Once on Novus I believe they would appoint him as leader because he is the only one really with experience leading both civilians and military. Looking forward to hopefully learning some more about their tie on Novus.

D Toccs
April 23rd, 2011, 04:22 PM
I'm quite interested which of the two groups had control of the gate.

Given that the entire offworld settlement was made up of Tenarans, it would be pretty safe to conclude that they had control of the gate.


The political division is still there for 2000 years, must be because of other deeper issues than ones started by the destiny crew. Who knows what. They are so different from us in their understanding of things. They dont seem to have christians or any religious among them. Why is that? Did they know of Earth? Did they have a terrorist groups or armies who worship Rush? Rush being a messiah figure could have pushed some into doing bad things.

Probably very similar to the Bedrosian and Optrican situation on P2X-416 in SG1 season 3 episode 19 New Ground.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 25th, 2011, 05:34 AM
traylor,


Well undoubtedly Young should have stayed as leader whilst still on Destiny especially considering the threat of attack. Once on Novus I believe they would appoint him as leader because he is the only one really with experience leading both civilians and military. Looking forward to hopefully learning some more about their tie on Novus.

Probably true. My question is more to those who insisted the civilians on the ship had no basis for their attempt to put the military in a subordinate position in "Divided". I'm curious to discover whether they would hold to that position once they've been trapped on Novus?

Gollumpus
April 25th, 2011, 11:24 AM
Should the military be in charge, should the civilians be in charge, I say the Novans should be in charge.

They would have come to accept that the chances were pretty slim that they would ever see Earth again, so they would have to dig in for the long haul, something which would include setting up some form of governance. I don't believe Young would become a dictator in the new society. I believe he is too principled to hold such a position. He would likely remain as the de facto leader of the military, but I suspect that he would retire to become a private citizen. The skills Young acquired getting to his rank would be very valuable to the settlement and he would likely be a voice which was sought out to support one position or another in any debate.

I don't think it's surprising that Young was the leader at some point during the rest of his life, that being said, for all we know that might have been the first election he ever won.


regards,
G.

Shylodog
April 25th, 2011, 11:42 AM
It's important to note that during his speech, Young was not condemning a split in the group. He was however making it clear that even divided like that, they all needed to work together to be able to survive.

traylormatt
April 25th, 2011, 11:44 AM
Ser,

I think when they are all on Novus we will see a change in their duties. I really hope they become more unified in their efforts. No more of this military is in charge and civillians are kept kind of thing. When they went to that planet that the planet builders built (that was a ridiculous way to write that, the planet in faith was it?) any way, that planet, the military seemed to still tell people what to do which seemed wrong. I think there wil be some of that to start with, but when they eventually see that they are truly alone, it will stop to a degree and then people will all fall into their roles of what they are good at.

I thikn we will find that the usual leaders will still be the leaders though.

traylormatt
April 25th, 2011, 11:47 AM
Also, is there really going to be a "military" by any real definition of the word, on Novus? What point would there actually be in the early days? Once the population grew they may need a kind of police, but still no military.

Nth Chevron
April 25th, 2011, 11:52 AM
Actually all you saw the military telling the civvies, in Faith, was how to construct basic shelters and a basic camp, and then when it was time to go.

There was pretty much no camera time for the in-between parts, the only few snippets we did see was a football match (Soccer for some of you), Dr Caine sitting in the middle of nowhere on a quiet stream and Scott apologized for happening upon him.

Other than that i would suspect, due to the recent attempted mutiny, that Scoot would have kept the military orders to a minimum and just let them interact on a more basic sentient level.

N.C