Novus...the Ontological (bootstrap) Paradox

[navyguy3185]

I have seen much debate in this forum about this Paradox of sorts. I have stated before that Novus is a bootstrap paradox. There is no ALTERNATE timeline...The timeline that we have only loops back upon itself. If there was an alternate timeline created, we would have no Col. Telford in the timeline we follow in our story.
When Destiny dropped out of FTL. The solar flare had to have happened in the few second interval between when he went through and when everyone else did, or else they would have all ended up back on earth.

2000 years ago Novas ALWAYS get founded....technology develops the same as it does in any other brand new culture with the exception of the knowledge they already had. When they rushed through the gate there is no indication that they had anything more than a kino and the clothes on their back. So.....they develop their civilization the best that they can, and the leave it to their descendants when they die off. Just like us, they went from almost primitive to technological epicenter in 2 millennia. The drones COULD have been built by the Novasians....just not the founders (destiny's crew). Just because a couple young adults that were born in the expedition camps never have seen a drone, doesn't mean their people didn't build them...
Ok...moving on...2000 years ago Novas founded.....life goes on....2000 years later Destiny enters the galaxy, wants to try to dial home in the sun, tries, and fails....Telford goes through the gate, goes back home....solar flare happens...the rest of the crew does the same and gets thrust back 2 millennia, thus completing the loop....while destiny itself only gets thrown back 12 hours....meeting itself close to the moment where it was destroyed.

Destiny did not create an alternate timeline.....but only brought itself back to the point where time could move forward again....

[LtColCarter]

I think I agree with Captain Janeway...all of this time travel stuff gives me a headache!

[D Toccs]

That's not how time travel works in Stargate.

In Stragate, every time that a time traveler changes history, they create a new timeline which replaces the old one. Examples include 2010, Moebius parts 1 and 2, Before I Sleep, The Last Man and Continuum.
It doesn't matter what kind of theory you subscribe to re: time travel in the real world, in Stargate that is how it works.

If there was an alternate timeline created, we would have no Col. Telford in the timeline we follow in our story.

That statement makes absolutely no sense.

[Rylor]

I guess it depends on your definition of "alternate timeline" and your point of view.

a) The "original" timeline

In this timeline, Novus never existed and Destiny established a wormhole back to Earth. The ship, Rush and Telford traveled back 12 hours in time and the rest of the crew 2000 years into the past. At that moment, this timeline ceased to exist (at least from the viewpoint of all people involved in the time travel, because they become part of the new timeline).

b) The "altered" timeline

In this timeline, Destiny never attempted to dial Earth, because Rush from the original timeline warned them about the danger. For this Destiny and her crew, Novus always existed, because this timeline was formed through the same action which led to the foundation of Novus.

Of course, in the end, there are still logical problems. No timeline can exist without the other, (b) is formed through a), and a always leads to b)), so in some form, they both exist. But in the end, they all end up in timeline b). Timeline a) may continue to exist somehow, but there is no Destiny (after the time travel) and no Novus.

Time travel gives me a headache as well

[The_Asgard_live]

That's not how time travel works in Stargate.

In Stragate, every time that a time traveler changes history, they create a new timeline which replaces the old one. Examples include 2010, Moebius parts 1 and 2, Before I Sleep, The Last Man and Continuum.
It doesn't matter what kind of theory you subscribe to re: time travel in the real world, in Stargate that is how it works.

I agree. Isn't timeline really just shorthand for, 'timeline of events'? Change the events, you've created an alternate timeline, no?
What is interesting about this alternate timeline is that it seemingly changes nothing in human (milkway or other near by galaxy) history at all. UNTIL Destiny meets the settlers (well technically until destiny meets the other destiny and they salvage supplies).

[LtColCarter]

I agree with what you're talking about with the time travel aspect. Then how does one explain that Destiny's crew from today...meets their descendants from a colony they spawned 2000 years earlier?

[Choo1701]

I agree with what you're talking about with the time travel aspect. Then how does one explain that Destiny's crew from today...meets their descendants from a colony they spawned 2000 years earlier?

Easy: the way Stargate ALWAYS explains this stuff:

Spoiler:

MAGNETS!

Spoiler:

although if you were doing it the Doctor Who way, techically dialing inside a star turns said star into a big firey ball of 'wibbly woobly timey whimey'. But thats another, completly different universe! (Ah nerdom)

[LtColCarter]

Easy: the way Stargate ALWAYS explains this stuff:

Spoiler:

MAGNETS!

Spoiler:

although if you were doing it the Doctor Who way, techically dialing inside a star turns said star into a big firey ball of 'wibbly woobly timey whimey'. But thats another, completly different universe! (Ah nerdom)

Not helpful, but funny!

[Trinary]

Bootstrap? It's more like a magic paradox. Incomplete and unexplained. How the destiny from -12 hours universe suddenly crossover into this universe. So in this universe timeline, the existing crews who missing was dead around 1900 years ago. The only crew left was Telford on Earth. That's mean the original main characters already dead, the original destiny already destroyed and the show should be ended.

No wonder SGU got canceled by Syfy, the time travel or timeline getting mess up like the Lost series. I think the same reason Lost got canceled by the channel. The SGU show might still be on if the current living destiny crews realized they were from the -12 hour universe and try to get back to the timeline and resume their journey or find a way back to their -12 hours Earth.

[LtColCarter]

Bootstrap? It's more like a magic paradox. Incomplete and unexplained. How the destiny from -12 hours universe suddenly crossover into this universe. So in this universe timeline, the existing crews who missing was dead around 1900 years ago. The only crew left was Telford on Earth. That's mean the original main characters already dead, the original destiny already destroyed and the show should be ended.

No wonder SGU got canceled by Syfy, the time travel or timeline getting mess up like the Lost series. I think the same reason Lost got canceled by the channel. The show might still be on if the current living destiny crews realized they were from the -12 hour universe and try to get back to the timeline and resume their journey or find a way back to their -12 hours Earth.

Really?

[Choo1701]

... I think the same reason Lost got canceled by the channel.

Lost didn't get cancelled, the network set out how many season the show would get during season 3.

Which the writers were fine with because like you said, the show was wandering all over the place!

[Major_Griff]

That's not how time travel works in Stargate.

In Stragate, every time that a time traveler changes history, they create a new timeline which replaces the old one. Examples include 2010, Moebius parts 1 and 2, Before I Sleep, The Last Man and Continuum.
It doesn't matter what kind of theory you subscribe to re: time travel in the real world, in Stargate that is how it works.



That statement makes absolutely no sense.

That is how time travel worked in the first Stargate time travel story "1969". SG has never been consistent with time travel.

[The Destiny]

Noone is consistent with timetravel. Timetravel is Doctor who's biggest plot device.


However this matter is simple. In fact it made perfect sense to me. I carefully laid out the timeline of events in the "Twin destinies" discussion. In many timetravel stories you have the "real" ( everything is relative ) timeline, then they go back in time, change stuff and cause an "alternate timeline" to be created.


Anyway, here is the sequence of events and it's frankly pretty logical, you just need a handful of logical assumptions of at which point the ship jumped back in time 12 hours etc.

- Destiny dives into sun
- Destiny dials Earth. At this exact moment they dial the entire ship is taken 12 hours back in time. Telford steps through and arrives on Earth, "12 hours ago" , at a moment in time before Destiny had actually arrived at the star. I gave evidence for Telford being 12 hours back in time as well in the Twin destinies discussion.
- Before anyone else steps through, the wormhole becomes unstable and due to extreme solar flare activity of dailing inside a star the wormhole rips through time and loops back unto itself 2000 years ago ( this is either an inconsistency, or just something new ( it's not like we've dialed inside a star often ) of a wormhole changing it's trajectory AFTER it's already connected for a few seconds ) There was no destiny there 2000 years ago, so instead it connects to Novus.
- Destiny crew step through ( after Telford ) and end up on Novus.

There ya go, that is all there is to it. I find it very straightforward.

[D Toccs]

That is how time travel worked in the first Stargate time travel story "1969". SG has never been consistent with time travel.

No, 1969 is the only Stargate time travel story to not feature the creation of a new timeline. 1969 was a stable time loop.

Every other time travel story in Stargate has created a new "alternate" time line which replaced the one that came before it.

I first wrote this in a thread in the Twin Destinies discussion, but I'll put it here as well. This is a breakdown of how the timelines and time travel have worked in Stargate so far.


Timleine #1 = Events of SG1 seasons 1-4. Earth makes alliance with the Aschen. The Aschen defeat the Goa'uld, begin sterilizing Earth. In 2010 O'Niell sends a message back in time to prevent contact with the Aschen.
Timeline #2 = Events of SG1 seasons 1-7. Atlanist Expedition arrive in Pegasus, Atlantis' shields fail, the city is destroyed. Weir travels back in time.
Timeline #3 = Events of SG1 seasons 1-8, SGA season 1. SG1 travel back to Ancient Egypt to steal a ZPM. They get stranded there and incite the rebellon against RA. Ra leaves Earth taking the stargate with him.
Timeline #4 = Stargate Program never existed. Government eventually finds SG1's tape from Ancient Egypt and uncover the second gate. Mission to Chulak, O'Niell, Carter and Teal'c travel to Ancient Egypt and meet Daniel Jackson from timeline #3. The incite the rebellion and succeed, Ra leaves Earth without taking the gate.
Timeline #5 = Events of SG1 seasons 1-10, AoT, SGA seasons 1-4. Sheppard gets sent 49,000 years into the future. Michael conquers the Pegasus Galaxy, Earth abandons Atlantis. McKay creates his hologram to get Sheppard back from the future. McKay's plan works, Sheppard is sent back in time.
Timeline #6 = Events of SG1 seasons 1-10, AoT, SGA seaons 1-4. Baal travels back in time and sinks the Achilles and stargate in the 1930's.
Timeline #7 = Stargate Program never existed. Baal conquers the Milky Way Galaxy. Mitchell, Carter and Jackson from timeline #6 get shifted into this timeline. They access Baal's time machine and Mitchell travels back in time and kills Baal saving the Achilles.
Timeline #8 = Events of SG1 seasons 1-10, AoT, Contiuum, SGA seasons 1-5, SGU season 1.0. The Destiny crew become stranded on the planet due to unstable wormhole. The crew get killed by the Squigglers, Rush and a Kino with the recorded events go through the unstable wormhole and are sent back in time.
Timeline #9 = Events of SG1 seasons 1-10, AoT, Contiuum, SGA seasons 1-5, SGU season 1.0. The Destiny crew find the Kino and watch the recording. The crew begins dying from the parasite in the water supply. A team is sent to the planet and are killed by the Squigglers. Scott records instructions on a Kino and sends it through the unstable wormhole and back in time.
Timeline #10 = Events of SG1 seasons 1-10, AoT, Contiuum, SGA seasons 1-5, SGU seasons 1-2.0. The Destiny crew enact a plan to dial Earth while inside a star. A solar flare cause the wormhole to become unstable and the Ship along with Telford and Rush are sent back in time by 12 hours and the rest of the crew back 2000 years.
Timeline #11 = Events of SG1 seasons 1-10, AoT, Contiuum, SGA seasons 1-5, SGU seasons 1-2.

[The Destiny]

Following on D Toccs, in this case the "real timeline" is the one where Destiny dives into the sun and they dial Earth. The ship then pops back in time but the timeline still continues, just without a destiny. The moment to where the destiny goes back is the alternate timeline. So the timeline we're following in SGU right now is the alternate: it's a timeline that was changed due to timetravel and replaced the old one.