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View Full Version : How would Alt Camile contributed to Novus's gene pool?



ckwongau
April 20th, 2011, 05:43 PM
Let's get this question out of the way first.

Considering the negative reaction from rumor last season about Amanda may use Camile's body for sex.
Let's be sensitive about the subject,discuss this as respectable as possible , i will try not to offend any people.

I can't imagine Alt Camie grew old without any children .

Without changing her life style or touching anybody .
She could ask for a test tube of sperm donation , and impregnant herself.

Many Women on earth did it with forzen sperm, without many technolgies , Camile just get the fresh sample.

So without touching anybody or change her life style , Camile can stiull have children.

I am sure there are other possibilities , but it will probably offend many people.

Can you think of any other way without offending people.?

blueray
April 20th, 2011, 05:50 PM
as it has been discussed in other threads, just because she is a lesbian doesn't mean that she can't have children or do whats necessary for the start of a civilization.

Nth Chevron
April 20th, 2011, 06:26 PM
There were no women for her and unfortunately James was either straight edge or on top of Eli so she just went for the next best thing.

N.C

blazingfire
April 20th, 2011, 07:05 PM
There were no women for her and unfortunately James was either straight edge or on top of Eli so she just went for the next best thing.

N.C

There could have been other lesbian/bi women among the 80 plus people, who knows? After egg donation, maybe she settled in with one of them?

Major_Griff
April 20th, 2011, 07:10 PM
Is it really that hard to imagine that she took one for the team?

Gollumpus
April 20th, 2011, 07:20 PM
Considering that the crew arrived on "Novus" with even less gear than that which they had when they arrived on Destiny, I wouldn't put any store in thoughts of some hi-tech method of impregnation of any woman on that planet.

Otherwise, this is a pointless thread, smacking of children having a giggle about something they think is "dirty". Wray appeared to have no problems what-so-ever when she was presented with the news of having descendants. As a matter of fact she seemed to be elated. I think she and whoever the father(s) of her child(ren) managed to get the desired results, and they did it with a lot more maturity than a number of people are showing on these forums.

regards,
G.

Ekras
April 20th, 2011, 07:30 PM
I thought the thread had stayed pretty clean and respectful....

Good point OP!

tomstone
April 20th, 2011, 07:36 PM
Is it really that hard to imagine that she took one for the team?

I agree. I would do it if it would benefit the big picture, but otherwise no thanks.

kimmyg
April 20th, 2011, 09:03 PM
I stated this in Eli's kids thread:

I suspect if Wray did have children, they wouldn't use a turkey baster as some have suggested. I suspect she'd choose her partner on how best to serve her desire for continued power/control/influence within the group. She's very astute politically and would choose someone 'influential' to make her prodigy's heritage "important" to the bigger picture. She told Young at one point he doesn't creep her out as much as he used to. I think she'd see him as a natural choice. He's tough, respected (by most), already maintains a position of power and she's seen his softer side on occasion.

Pharaoh Atem
April 20th, 2011, 09:25 PM
as it has been discussed in other threads, just because she is a lesbian doesn't mean that she can't have children or do whats necessary for the start of a civilization.

she could be BI for all we know.

tomstone
April 20th, 2011, 11:31 PM
There is alot of bad experiences in that particular topic in many People, thats why its usually something you should not mention. As for me, I just wanted to contribute that from my point of view that I could do it, but certainly not enjoy it and I guess the same would go for Camile.

thekillman
April 20th, 2011, 11:46 PM
all human beings have a desire to procreate, and it's obvious that it exists with straight AND gay couples.


it's also rather obvious that Wray, among the dozens of children, simply couldn't resist that aspect of her human nature.

it's very possible that she enjoyed it. it's also very possible that she at times regretted her choice.

D Toccs
April 20th, 2011, 11:53 PM
There is alot of bad experiences in that particular topic in many People, thats why its usually something you should not mention.

Wise words.

To be honest, I don't really understand how Wray having descendants became such an issue that there are so many threads about it.
Wray herself certainly didn't seem to be bothered by it. The episode itself didn't give any indication that it was a concern for anybody.
It's obvious how she got the children, who she did it with and whether or not she enjoyed it are really none of our concern at all.

I think the only people who even care about it are the same sort of people who were bothered by the fact that she was a lesbian in the first place.

The_Asgard_live
April 21st, 2011, 12:25 AM
Wise words.

To be honest, I don't really understand how Wray having descendants became such an issue that there are so many threads about it.
Wray herself certainly didn't seem to be bothered by it. The episode itself didn't give any indication that it was a concern for anybody.
It's obvious how she got the children, who she did it with and whether or not she enjoyed it are really none of our concern at all.

I think the only people who even care about it are the same sort of people who were bothered by the fact that she was a lesbian in the first place.

I don't think that is the case. I think this is the first time her lesbianism has been interesting...

That she is involved in a stable relationship with another woman, boooring.

That she makes the kissy face with her girlfriend, handled with all the tact and romance of something you'd see on the Lifetime Network. Snooze fest. If you want that, better pure plays abound.

The oh so controversial episode where she is trapped in a crippled body, how will the lesbian couple cope? eye rolls...

80 people populate an entire civilization and at least one gay character apparently had to have heterosexual relations with MULTIPLE partners? Now that is an interesting dilemma that only a sci-fi show gets you to thinking about.

I am a man, so the situation is different, however, without projecting my sexuality onto everyone else... I could not take one for the team. To quote Archer... "Its a catch-22, the amount of alcohol I would need would literally kill me...".

Whats makes it even more interesting to me is seemingly, some of the PC people here seem to think its trivial for a homosexual to just have heterosexual sex and vice versa. One is even arguing they would like it.

As far as whether Wray herself felt bothered by it... is that a problem with the writing? How much thought do we really think they put into it? Remember Atlantis's irresistible? It was essentially a rape drug (a point not difficult to argue), but it was written playfully...

I thought this show wasn't suppose to be written that way?

D Toccs
April 21st, 2011, 12:32 AM
Whats makes it even more interesting to me is seemingly, some of the PC people here seem to think its trivial for a homosexual to just have heterosexual sex and vice versa. One is even arguing they would like it.

That is a great point.

traylormatt
April 21st, 2011, 02:19 AM
Though I fully agree that ones sexual orientation is not a choice and they are born how they are and absolutely perfect regardless of if they like men, women or both. I would still say that the act of sexual interaction does not necessarily determine ones orientation.

Look at ancient civilizations. Perfectly normal for younger boys to engage with older respected men. Sometimes even seen as a sign of respect towards the older man if they were a teacher who is imparting knowledge. For any people in ancient greece and rome, having intimate relations was much more common between two men than a man and a woman. This nature obviously changed over time, and unfortunately, same sex relations becoming disgusting to some people, and very wrongly so.

For someone like Wray, I can imagine at the very least she would be able to comfortably had sex with a male she cares about and respects, like many of the crew members on Destiny, especially after another few years. Would she enjoy it? who knows, though many lesbians would be disgusted at the though of having sex with a man, some would not be disgusted and could enjoy it. We do not know what her characters views are this topic are.

She does not seem like a person that hates men, nor does she seem uncomfortable around them. She may never truely love any of them but she could love and care for them in a different way.

I think that for her to decide to do this would be a very big step that she would have to take, but her character seems to be the kind that could take it with maturity and a clear mind.

We still don't know several other factors regarding her sexuality. We do not know if she is homosexual or bisexual, we don't know if she has ever had sex with a man in her past. For all the audience could know, her current lesbian relationship could e her very first lesbian relationship and up until then she had only heterosexual relationships.

The point it, we don't know.

The_Asgard_live
April 21st, 2011, 03:07 AM
Though I fully agree that ones sexual orientation is not a choice and they are born how they are and absolutely perfect regardless of if they like men, women or both. I would still say that the act of sexual interaction does not necessarily determine ones orientation.

I'd say that 'everyone being absolutely perfect' is perhaps overstating the case.


For any people in ancient greece and rome, having intimate relations was much more common between two men than a man and a woman.

Much more out in the open, sure, much more common than between a man and a woman? I'd need stats on that.


This nature obviously changed over time, and unfortunately, same sex relations becoming disgusting to some people, and very wrongly so.

Why unfortunately and very wrong? What if the sexual orientation born to you is such that you find the idea of engaging in relations with the same sex to be anything from uncomfortable to disgusting? Do you not afford them the same "absolutely perfect regardless..." status?


For someone like Wray, I can imagine at the very least she would be able to comfortably had sex with a male she cares about and respects, like many of the crew members on Destiny, especially after another few years.

Why do you believe that having sex with someone outside of your orientation is so trivial? And in this case, we aren't talking just once, we are likely talking many times with multiple partners. I've seen the theme repeated here. That sex is somehow this other unrelated thing to orientation. Let me ask you this, trying to remain as G rated as possible. If sex is simply a mechanical matter that people can do and probably enjoy despite their preferences, could you engage in consensual relations with your mother or sister? Its not really so trivial to just turn sex into a mechanical thing that feels good and you can do with just anyone...


She does not seem like a person that hates men, nor does she seem uncomfortable around them. She may never truely love any of them but she could love and care for them in a different way.

Its not a question of 'hating' anyone.


The point it, we don't know.

You are right, we don't know. She could be a bi-sexual. And if thats the case then the writers have copped out. No dark hip edgy points scored. Wouldn't that literally make Wray's sexuality 'deus ex machina'? Or am I using that wrong?

Nth Chevron
April 21st, 2011, 03:26 AM
"Its a catch-22, the amount of alcohol I would need would literally kill me...".

They didnt have Alcohol, your point is invalid :P

N.C

traylormatt
April 21st, 2011, 03:58 AM
I'd say that 'everyone being absolutely perfect' is perhaps overstating the case.

Much more out in the open, sure, much more common than between a man and a woman? I'd need stats on that.

Why unfortunately and very wrong? What if the sexual orientation born to you is such that you find the idea of engaging in relations with the same sex to be anything from uncomfortable to disgusting? Do you not afford them the same "absolutely perfect regardless..." status?

Why do you believe that having sex with someone outside of your orientation is so trivial? And in this case, we aren't talking just once, we are likely talking many times with multiple partners. I've seen the theme repeated here. That sex is somehow this other unrelated thing to orientation. Let me ask you this, trying to remain as G rated as possible. If sex is simply a mechanical matter that people can do and probably enjoy despite their preferences, could you engage in consensual relations with your mother or sister? Its not really so trivial to just turn sex into a mechanical thing that feels good and you can do with just anyone...

Its not a question of 'hating' anyone.

You are right, we don't know. She could be a bi-sexual. And if thats the case then the writers have copped out. No dark hip edgy points scored. Wouldn't that literally make Wray's sexuality 'deus ex machina'? Or am I using that wrong?

also trying to keep it PG. With the ancient civilisations, all I can tell you is a documentary I watched on the history channel where it discussed the sexual orientation or men in either ancient civilisations (now i can't remember if it was rome or greece" but when the men would get married, they would be so uncomfortable sleeping with their new wives, a way to overcome it was to shave the womans head and bring the man from where he was with his male friends to where she was, and have sex with her in a darkened room, mimicing the actions he would do with a male, until he was more comfortable with her. How accurate that is, you would have to contact the history channel.

I think that anyone's choice of sexual orientation is fine. Some do find it disgusting the thought of same sex relations and some find opposite sex relations disgusting. which also goes into your next point. What I was meaning was the persecution of people for same sex relationships was bad and in my opinion very wrong. People are entitled to believe that same sex relations is wrong, it is perfectly in their right to, but when it lead to killings and people hiding who they are, then that is wrong, as i believe most people would agree. I am certainly not intending to trivialise the the point of her having sex with someone of the opposite sex. I did not trivialise it. You can read into how you wish, i did not say "hey she can just do it, she'll probably find it fun" no, I said she may not enjoy it, I don't know. But i said I can imagine that if she found someone she is comfortable with, she may be able to engage in these activities in order to preserve their culture. That is all. I also said that for her to decide to do this would be a very big step and if she were to take it she would take it with maturity and a clear mind. Meaning she would not be pressured into it and only do it if she felt comfortable. so please, if you wish to claim I am trivializing something, please read the entire post and don't just reply to which parts you think you can attack on. If I have already explained myself in the original post, I do not expect I should have to again.

You are right, it is not about hating any one. I was pointing out that she can be comfortable with men, she seems to be able to generate close and strong bonds with them. With these bonds she may be able to create caring and loving ones that could make her comfortable enough, given time, to be able to engage in sex with some of them. In the same way the heterosexual women will not just have sex with every single man from Destiny, but they might be willing to sleep with more men than they would have usually done back on Earth, for the conservation of their people there. This is again not to say they would sleep with EVERYONE but simply those they feel comfortable with. I do not know though. I know that if i were to engage in homosexual relations with another man because it could somehow benefit everyone preserve mankind. I would only be able to do it if I had a very close connection to them on a personal level, beyond anything physical. I would not see myself ever falling in love with a man or finding them as sexually attractive as a woman, but if it were to benefit the future of our people, I would certainly feel better going into it if I cared about the person. This could be how Wray would feel. She may never feel massively attracted to the person but can care about them on a personal level which can make her attracted to them in a different way. Not raw animal magnetism, but a loving caring bond and desire to have children leading to her thinking having children with that particular person(s) would be her preferred choice.
Which is also suggests that once again I am not trivialising sex as a mechanical thing like you suggested, which you would know if you responded to the entire post, I said she would need to have a close connection to the male members to engage in this activity with.

So please do not think I am trivializing something like this like you suggested with the mother daughter thing. I said nothing in my post to suggest that is was mechanical. Anything that may have seemed that way was certainly then clarified later in the post. It is easy to take something and make it into what you want it to be.

traylormatt
April 21st, 2011, 03:58 AM
They didnt have Alcohol, your point is invalid :P

N.C

Brody will knock up something in no time at all.

The_Asgard_live
April 21st, 2011, 04:40 AM
also trying to keep it PG. With the ancient civilisations, all I can tell you is a documentary I watched on the history channel where it discussed the sexual orientation or men in either ancient civilisations (now i can't remember if it was rome or greece" but when the men would get married, they would be so uncomfortable sleeping with their new wives, a way to overcome it was to shave the womans head and bring the man from where he was with his male friends to where she was, and have sex with her in a darkened room, mimicing the actions he would do with a male, until he was more comfortable with her. How accurate that is, you would have to contact the history channel.

I think that anyone's choice of sexual orientation is fine. Some do find it disgusting the thought of same sex relations and some find opposite sex relations disgusting. which also goes into your next point. What I was meaning was the persecution of people for same sex relationships was bad and in my opinion very wrong. People are entitled to believe that same sex relations is wrong, it is perfectly in their right to, but when it lead to killings and people hiding who they are, then that is wrong, as i believe most people would agree. I am certainly not intending to trivialise the the point of her having sex with someone of the opposite sex. I did not trivialise it. You can read into how you wish, i did not say "hey she can just do it, she'll probably find it fun" no, I said she may not enjoy it, I don't know. But i said I can imagine that if she found someone she is comfortable with, she may be able to engage in these activities in order to preserve their culture. That is all. I also said that for her to decide to do this would be a very big step and if she were to take it she would take it with maturity and a clear mind. Meaning she would not be pressured into it and only do it if she felt comfortable. so please, if you wish to claim I am trivializing something, please read the entire post and don't just reply to which parts you think you can attack on. If I have already explained myself in the original post, I do not expect I should have to again.

You are right, it is not about hating any one. I was pointing out that she can be comfortable with men, she seems to be able to generate close and strong bonds with them. With these bonds she may be able to create caring and loving ones that could make her comfortable enough, given time, to be able to engage in sex with some of them. In the same way the heterosexual women will not just have sex with every single man from Destiny, but they might be willing to sleep with more men than they would have usually done back on Earth, for the conservation of their people there. This is again not to say they would sleep with EVERYONE but simply those they feel comfortable with. I do not know though. I know that if i were to engage in homosexual relations with another man because it could somehow benefit everyone preserve mankind. I would only be able to do it if I had a very close connection to them on a personal level, beyond anything physical. I would not see myself ever falling in love with a man or finding them as sexually attractive as a woman, but if it were to benefit the future of our people, I would certainly feel better going into it if I cared about the person. This could be how Wray would feel. She may never feel massively attracted to the person but can care about them on a personal level which can make her attracted to them in a different way. Not raw animal magnetism, but a loving caring bond and desire to have children leading to her thinking having children with that particular person(s) would be her preferred choice.
Which is also suggests that once again I am not trivialising sex as a mechanical thing like you suggested, which you would know if you responded to the entire post, I said she would need to have a close connection to the male members to engage in this activity with.

So please do not think I am trivializing something like this like you suggested with the mother daughter thing. I said nothing in my post to suggest that is was mechanical. Anything that may have seemed that way was certainly then clarified later in the post. It is easy to take something and make it into what you want it to be.

Now now, its so easy for one to get their feathers ruffled. First, I wasn't attack anything other than what I believed to be your reasoning. Certainly not you. I left your whole post intact this time (something I normally wouldn't do as it just seems bulky to me). I pick what I like to respond to and don't have any intention of taking things out of context.


So please do not think I am trivializing something like this like you suggested with the mother daughter thing. I said nothing in my post to suggest that is was mechanical.

Of what you said, this to me suggested that...


Though I fully agree that ones sexual orientation is not a choice and they are born how they are and absolutely perfect regardless of if they like men, women or both. I would still say that the act of sexual interaction does not necessarily determine ones orientation.

You appear, at least to me, to be making a distinction between the act (mechanical interaction) and the orientation (everything else).
Additionally, you said,


For someone like Wray, I can imagine at the very least she would be able to comfortably had sex with a male she cares about and respects, like many of the crew members on Destiny, especially after another few years. Would she enjoy it? who knows, though many lesbians would be disgusted at the though of having sex with a man, some would not be disgusted and could enjoy it. We do not know what her characters views are this topic are.

At the 'very least' (meaning at minimum) Wray, a lesbian would be able to have sex comfortably with someone of the opposite sex if she cared and respected them, given enough time? Even though you went on to say many would find it disgusting, some might enjoy it? Isn't a lesbian that enjoys heterosexual sex at a minimum bi, or full on hetero? and vice versa? The concept of finding any enjoyment in same sex relations and still not being gay is something new to me. I haven't really seen it argued until this episode. To me, it would be akin to saying to a homosexual.. "If you haven't had sex with the opposite sex, how do you know you wouldn't like it". To me that seems rude.

As far as who she feels comfortable with/respects, that may not be an option. They have to plan out their pairings, not necessarily their preferences (at least for breeding purposes)

So, in short, I responded to your whole post, only quoted part of it. Its a waste to argue about what you did or didn't say. If you say you didn't mean it the way I took it, thats fine, apologies. Maybe I clarified why I took it that way, maybe not (also take into account, there are others that seem to be arguing something similar).

traylormatt
April 21st, 2011, 04:52 AM
Now now, its so easy for one to get their feathers ruffled. First, I wasn't attack anything other than what I believed to be your reasoning. Certainly not you. I left your whole post intact this time (something I normally wouldn't do as it just seems bulky to me). I pick what I like to respond to and don't have any intention of taking things out of context.

Of what you said, this to me suggested that...

You appear, at least to me, to be making a distinction between the act (mechanical interaction) and the orientation (everything else).
Additionally, you said,

At the 'very least' (meaning at minimum) Wray, a lesbian would be able to have sex comfortably with someone of the opposite sex if she cared and respected them, given enough time? Even though you went on to say many would find it disgusting, some might enjoy it? Isn't a lesbian that enjoys heterosexual sex at a minimum bi, or full on hetero? and vice versa? The concept of finding any enjoyment in same sex relations and still not being gay is something new to me. I haven't really seen it argued until this episode. To me, it would be akin to saying to a homosexual.. "If you haven't had sex with the opposite sex, how do you know you wouldn't like it". To me that seems rude.

As far as who she feels comfortable with/respects, that may not be an option. They have to plan out their pairings, not necessarily their preferences (at least for breeding purposes)

So, in short, I responded to your whole post, only quoted part of it. Its a waste to argue about what you did or didn't say. If you say you didn't mean it the way I took it, thats fine, apologies. Maybe I clarified why I took it that way, maybe not (also take into account, there are others that seem to be arguing something similar).

Regarding the sexual orientation, I believe that for the purposes of this episode and their situation, her having sex with a man would not change her orientation as what she is, which we don't know yet as it has not been fully explored. But I certainly did not mean to make it into anything mechanical. Which is why I later went on to say it would be a very big decision for her.

When I said someone like Wray, I was not meaning her as a lesbian, I was meaning her personality. She seems very logical and works through things step by step. As such I can see her willing to do something she may not enjoy for the good of preservation, but only if she were willing to. I meant she could possibly enjoy it. We do not know if she would or wouldn't. Yes of course she may hate it and I would imagine that most lesbians would not enjoy sex with a man. But I simply meant that there is a chance she could, I didn't say she would, I said I do not know. Maybe she does not know either.

As for your comment about it not being an option. That seems a little weird. I don't think they would simply be breeding, she, and all of the crew, would have an option surely. Obviously if they had all agreed to purely have sex for the sake of breeding, thus taking all emotion out of it and it truly being something mechanical, then possibly, but I find it very hard to think that they could completely separate the action with the emotion. But hey, they may be able to, I have never been in that situation.

And you have clarified why you took it that way now. And I understand that other people are discussing it, and I know sometimes I reply to everything as a whole rather than just individual things, generalizing the sentiments of what others have said into just one reply.

Also I think I haven't really put forward that the reason I say "I don't know" is that no one knows. Not just for Wray's position but for anyones. If there was a homosexual person to reply and say "I can tell you that she would certainly not be willing to do that.." they would be wrong, as they are not her. In the same way if another homosexual person said "I can tell you she definitely would do that, I would" they would also be wrong as they are not her. She may end up sleeping with a man, or falling in love with a man and discovering that she can love a man like she loves a woman. We may find she has always been bi, as I said earlier, her current relationship could be her first ever homosexual one and before it she thought she was heterosexual. People are constantly discovering themselves and unless someone out there IS the fictional character Wray, then they really can't say her feeling on it, regardless of their personal orientation or what they have experienced. they can have a perfectly educated guess, but it would still only be a guess but probably better than many others regarding the topic.

The_Asgard_live
April 21st, 2011, 05:10 AM
Regarding the sexual orientation, I believe that for the purposes of this episode and their situation, her having sex with a man would not change her orientation as what she is, which we don't know yet as it has not been fully explored. But I certainly did not mean to make it into anything mechanical. Which is why I later went on to say it would be a very big decision for her.

Ah, to clarify my thinking. I don't think the act of having sex with a man changes her orientation either. I think the act of having sex with a man and enjoying it calls into question what her true sexuality even is. Lets be honest, even if she did decide to 'take one for the team' so to speak, it would quite likely be traumatic for all involved. On her part it might involve crying or a general appearance of repulsion and from the guys point of view it might feel like he was raping her.


When I said someone like Wray, I was not meaning her as a lesbian, I was meaning her personality. She seems very logical and works through things step by step. As such I can see her willing to do something she may not enjoy for the good of preservation, but only if she were willing to. I meant she could possibly enjoy it. We do not know if she would or wouldn't. Yes of course she may hate it and I would imagine that most lesbians would not enjoy sex with a man. But I simply meant that there is a chance she could, I didn't say she would, I said I do not know. Maybe she does not know either.

As for your comment about it not being an option. That seems a little weird. I don't think they would simply be breeding, she, and all of the crew, would have an option surely. Obviously if they had all agreed to purely have sex for the sake of breeding, thus taking all emotion out of it and it truly being something mechanical, then possibly, but I find it very hard to think that they could completely separate the action with the emotion. But hey, they may be able to, I have never been in that situation.

Again, to clarify my thinking... I am assuming that each women would need to have like 3-5 children with 3-5 different men (this has nothing to do with who they love). Which means multiple sexing with multiple men. I assume figuring out who should be the 3-5 men is something that would almost literally need to be mapped out with pen and paper. Like a literal breeding schedule of the first few generations. You breed with these 3-5, then your children breed with those.. etc. The only way she gets lucky and gets to chose those she loves/respects is if they decide because she is 'taking one for the team' she should get her choice of the 3-5. But other than that, its out of necessity not preference.


And you have clarified why you took it that way now. And I understand that other people are discussing it, and I know sometimes I reply to everything as a whole rather than just individual things, generalizing the sentiments of what others have said into just one reply.
Got nothing, just quoted it! :)

traylormatt
April 21st, 2011, 05:23 AM
Asgard,

I completely get your thinking and I agree. For it to work they would have to map it out pretty carefully. I was just meaning in the context of the discussion. For it to be a viable way of reproduction in the future, they would have to discuss who would need to reproduce with who. And I agree that perhaps as it could be seen as more traumatic for her, she may be able to chose who she would partner with. This is why, regarding the "take one for the team" I think she would be able to enjoy it (when I say enjoy i mean, be less repulsed by or more comfortable about it) with someone that she genuinely cares about beyond the idea of simple reproduction. This is not to say she would be all "oh baby. now THAT is what I have been missing. mama wants some more sugar" but rather she would care about them and engage in a loving act with someone she loves or multiple people she loves and who love her or deeply care and most importantly respect her (loves in one way or another). I don't mean respect as in everyone who has ever slept with another person deeply cares and respects them, because we all know that is simply not true. But I think with these very educated and seemingly respectful people, they would be understanding of her situation and not pressure her into anything (or anyone for that matter) but that she would feel more comfortable with a man who she knows not only cares about her but also respects her.

Naquadah_nut
April 21st, 2011, 06:06 AM
To settle this, My Best friend is a lesbian and my other friend runs the LGBTQ at my university, so i put it to a vote, how many women and gay men, would have hetrosexual sex for the means of procreating a new civilization, i even went as far as saying they would raise the child together so in essence would be a couple.
End Result......All of them said that their sexual orientation was not an issue when it was survival of the human race, they would gladly have and raise children, as there is nothing stopping them from not feeling a sexual connection to other parent, and most said they would even possibly pick a gay man/ lesbian to do it with, so there was no actual attraction on any side. so in conclusion....not a problem, this is what must be done to keep the human race going.

The_Asgard_live
April 21st, 2011, 06:27 AM
To settle this, My Best friend is a lesbian and my other friend runs the LGBTQ at my university, so i put it to a vote, how many women and gay men, would have hetrosexual sex for the means of procreating a new civilization, i even went as far as saying they would raise the child together so in essence would be a couple.

Far from settling anything (for anyone other than the group polled), however interesting nonetheless!


End Result......All of them said that their sexual orientation was not an issue when it was survival of the human race, they would gladly have and raise children, as there is nothing stopping them from not feeling a sexual connection to other parent,

Isn't homosexuality the 'nothing stopping them' from not feeling a sexual connection? How do you feel a sexual connection with someone you aren't sexually oriented to feel a sexual connection with. Though there are a lot of negatives in what you said, but I think I am reading it right.


and most said they would even possibly pick a gay man/ lesbian to do it with, so there was no actual attraction on any side.

Why would for their side (the LBQUITET whatever side) this even be an issue? How can a homosexual be sexually attracted to someone of the other gender and still be a homosexual? Its beyond weird to me. That literally is incompatible with being a homosexual.

D Toccs
April 21st, 2011, 06:30 AM
To settle this, My Best friend is a lesbian and my other friend runs the LGBTQ at my university, so i put it to a vote, how many women and gay men, would have hetrosexual sex for the means of procreating a new civilization, i even went as far as saying they would raise the child together so in essence would be a couple.
End Result......All of them said that their sexual orientation was not an issue when it was survival of the human race, they would gladly have and raise children, as there is nothing stopping them from not feeling a sexual connection to other parent, and most said they would even possibly pick a gay man/ lesbian to do it with, so there was no actual attraction on any side. so in conclusion....not a problem, this is what must be done to keep the human race going.

I don't believe a word of this.

To clarify, I believe that for some gay/lesbian people, heterosexual sex for the sake of humanity may be acceptable, but for others it would not be, it is all up to the individual.

What I don't believe, is that you actually went out an "surveyed" a group of gay/lesbian people in order to come up with these "results".
I am also dubious of anyone who would start the conversation with "my best friend is a lesbian so . ."

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 21st, 2011, 06:40 AM
as it has been discussed in other threads, just because she is a lesbian doesn't mean that she can't have children or do whats necessary for the start of a civilization.

I loved Wray's simple delight at the idea that all of those children were her descendants and yes, simply being a lesbian doesn't deprive her of the ability to have children


...

Otherwise, this is a pointless thread, smacking of children having a giggle about something they think is "dirty". ..It always makes me a little sad to realize just how many childish people there are. And gives me hope to know that not everyone is that way.

<Mod snip.Clearing response to a deleted post.>

traylormatt
April 21st, 2011, 06:52 AM
To settle this, My Best friend is a lesbian and my other friend runs the LGBTQ at my university, so i put it to a vote, how many women and gay men, would have hetrosexual sex for the means of procreating a new civilization, i even went as far as saying they would raise the child together so in essence would be a couple.
End Result......All of them said that their sexual orientation was not an issue when it was survival of the human race, they would gladly have and raise children, as there is nothing stopping them from not feeling a sexual connection to other parent, and most said they would even possibly pick a gay man/ lesbian to do it with, so there was no actual attraction on any side. so in conclusion....not a problem, this is what must be done to keep the human race going.

there is certainly no settling going on here. I could claim my best friend is who ever and they know x y an z. As I said in a previous post, it doesn't matter if you happen to know every other homosexual or bi or any other orientation person on the planet, that would still not mean you know what Wray would do and how she would feel.

KEK
April 21st, 2011, 06:58 AM
she could be BI for all we know.

Good point. I don't believe she's actually ever talked about her sexuality, or that there's ever been any indication that she isn't bisexual.

jsonitsac
April 21st, 2011, 10:08 AM
One thing that we've got to remember is that in terms of establishing a long term population of humans is that fertile women are more important than men. Remember, a woman can only have on baby at a time but a man can impregnate multiple women. You would need, at least for the first few generations, more girls than boys. Until you can reach some kind of "magic number" where monogamy will be sustainable. In short, as a fertile female Wray would have been too valuable not to have had a baby.

This does mean that there will be some degree of inbreeding probably occurred, at least in the early generations of the Novus population. The term for this is called Pedigree Collapse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_collapse).

Gollumpus
April 21st, 2011, 12:48 PM
So much concern over one character who has a sexual orientation which is different from the rest of the folks. How much thought are people putting towards the problems involved in having multiple pairings?

As I've noted elsewhere, some folks seem to think that there would be some set pairs (like Young/TJ, Scott/Chloe, Greer/Park) while everyone else is off doing it like monkeys. What sort of societal problems are they going to have due to petty jealousies? What about some folks being a logical pairing but they have a strong distaste or even mild hate for each other? What if the respective fathers all dislike one another? Can you imagine birthday parties for TJ if she had children by Young and Varro? And what if Rush and Telford had made it through the gate and they each sired a child with TJ? Even better, what if Greer, Rush and Telford were all fathers of children with Park? Would Greer's kid beat up on Telford's kid? Would Rush Jr. hate Greer Jr. and Telford Jr.? It could doom their society...

regards,
G.

The_Asgard_live
April 21st, 2011, 02:00 PM
So much concern over one character who has a sexual orientation which is different from the rest of the folks. How much thought are people putting towards the problems involved in having multiple pairings?

So much concern over others concerns...

To be honest with you, the first thing to pop into my head when they introduced the society was... that it wasn't enough for the writers to introduce a new love triangle every other week (which the crew manages to survive without anyone killing anyone else), now they introduce a whole society based on "who is frakking multiple whos" pentagons!. Second thought on the subject even before Wray was... gee I hope they don't have relations with their descendants, that is really going to ruin the episode for me.

Gollumpus
April 21st, 2011, 04:26 PM
So much concern over others concerns...

Meh, I'm just a caring kind of guy. :P


To be honest with you, the first thing to pop into my head when they introduced the society was... that it wasn't enough for the writers to introduce a new love triangle every other week (which the crew manages to survive without anyone killing anyone else), now they introduce a whole society based on "who is frakking multiple whos" pentagons!. Second thought on the subject even before Wray was... gee I hope they don't have relations with their descendants, that is really going to ruin the episode for me.

The ancestors meeting their descendants type of story is fairly commonplace. In 50/50 hindsight it makes perfect sense for the writers to have introduced this story. When the hoped for evacuation from Destiny to Earth occurred, the sun's activity affected the stargate in a manner which we have already seen from previous story lines. I guess we should have been expecting something like this for a while. It's also pretty obvious that the writers would address the who begat who and so on since relationships between characters is a major theme of SGU, which is why they were doing those relationship type of story lines.

That so much attention is being paid to one specific character's potential interactions, based solely upon her sexual orientation, does so much discredit to so many people. There are larger issues of procreation in that story, involving ALL of the people from Destiny. To focus on just one is just plain silly, perhaps even juvenile.

As far as there being ancestor/descendant relationships, who cares? The story in that regard is not should it happen at all, but rather why should it happen if it does happen? There's been around 2,000 years of gene pool mixing in that group so there'd be no biological reason why it shouldn't happen. The question would be, what sort of relationship would develop so quickly that one of the descendants would want to have sex with one of Destiny's crew? I don't think they were going to be around long enough for such relationships to develop. Thinking solely about sexual relations, I think it's pretty easy to see why *some* (many/most?) members of the crew might want to stay with the descendants due to the ratio of male to females.

regards,
G.

The_Asgard_live
April 21st, 2011, 04:56 PM
That so much attention is being paid to one specific character's potential interactions, based solely upon her sexual orientation, does so much discredit to so many people. There are larger issues of procreation in that story, involving ALL of the people from Destiny. To focus on just one is just plain silly, perhaps even juvenile.

I am not sure how discredit, silly or juvenile factor into it. How do you quantify "so much attention"? Maybe it just seems that way to you. Based on your posts on the subject, if I was a betting man, I would wager you would think that almost no attention at all should be paid to it. By comparison, I believe at least 3 or 4 threads have been created/deleted to speculate on the significance of purple fruit.

I don't know about you, but I tire of who is having sex with who on Destiny. That they would increase the amount of sex and partners to form a society to me is par for the course with Destiny's crew. How Wray has to deal with it and the interesting/bizarre things people say on the subject are far more interesting, at least to me.


As far as there being ancestor/descendant relationships, who cares?

It was a bit of snark on my part about the amount of time spent on relationships/relations on the show. Not meant to be dissected literally. Is there any technical reason why they can't have relations with their ancestors... I guess not. But some of them look like the crew and to me it would be creepy.

ckwongau
April 21st, 2011, 06:36 PM
To settle this, My Best friend is a lesbian and my other friend runs the LGBTQ at my university, so i put it to a vote, how many women and gay men, would have hetrosexual sex for the means of procreating a new civilization, i even went as far as saying they would raise the child together so in essence would be a couple.
End Result......All of them said that their sexual orientation was not an issue when it was survival of the human race, they would gladly have and raise children, as there is nothing stopping them from not feeling a sexual connection to other parent, and most said they would even possibly pick a gay man/ lesbian to do it with, so there was no actual attraction on any side. so in conclusion....not a problem, this is what must be done to keep the human race going.

Why do people assume Alt Camile needed to have sex with men to have children, as i put it in the beginning of the thread.
All Alt Camile needed was a few test tube of fresh sperm., and she can finish the job herself .without the need to touch anybody else.
Just like many women who purchase frozen sperm on Earth.


The point i am trying to make is Alt Camile doesn't have to compromise her belief or life style , just to have children.
But whatever choice Alt Camile make , it was her choice, we should respect it .But we should not make assumption about how she needed change her life style or belief for having children.
There was nothing wrong with her life style, and there wasn't need to change it .She can have children without changing anything about her.


But the reason i started this thread is to let people openly talk about the Alt Camile situation , instead of making dirty asssumption or judgment in their head, if we discusss it like Adult , at least we can get it out of our system.

Gollumpus
April 22nd, 2011, 08:44 AM
I am not sure how discredit, silly or juvenile factor into it. How do you quantify "so much attention"? Maybe it just seems that way to you. Based on your posts on the subject, if I was a betting man, I would wager you would think that almost no attention at all should be paid to it. By comparison, I believe at least 3 or 4 threads have been created/deleted to speculate on the significance of purple fruit.

I don't know about you, but I tire of who is having sex with who on Destiny. That they would increase the amount of sex and partners to form a society to me is par for the course with Destiny's crew. How Wray has to deal with it and the interesting/bizarre things people say on the subject are far more interesting, at least to me.


It's not what is being said on the subject, it's the tone of some of what is being said. Maybe I just expect more from people. And while humour is something which I personally like to inject into conversation when-ever possible (and appropriate), I reserve the right to criticize others for what I feel is inappropriate or misplaced levity. Others should feel free to do the same to me. :)

It's not just a question of "does Wray lie back and think of Novus or impregnate herself with sperm from a test tube?" (something which I'm pretty sure they do not have), this is a question which applies to every woman on that planet. Just because TJ or Chloe or Park or James etc are heterosexual (or at least we have seen that they are quite willing to have sexual intercourse) does not mean that they would be any more willing to "lie back and think of Novus" with any guy other than their current significant other. Wray's sexual orientation is used as a means for us to start talking about the subject, but we are supposed to take that next step and apply what we talk about to the group as a whole. However, talk mostly just stops with discussions of "what would Wray do?" and we neglect the rest of the group except for some discussion of whether TJ would have a child by Varro.

I think there should be lots of attention given to this subject as it would have an effect in determining major aspects of how the Novan (Novusian?) society would develop (you lost that nickle). If you were tired of who was having sex with who on Destiny you'd really be bored with events on Novus. The basic issues of survival in early Novan society would be: food, water, shelter, sex, and any other things needed to exist. Who is sleeping with who would be of great importance, so much so you'd be even more tired of it than you are now. Might a Novan twist on the old saying, "Have sex for love, but marry for money" become "Marry for love, but have sex for genes"? Might such a thing become commonplace in Novan society? You can marry someone, you just can't have children with them? Why should we assume that after X number of generations would revert to how we as a society operate?

Do we need 3 or 4 threads all saying pretty much the same thing? No. Having three or four threads (or more) which examine different aspects of the various questions could be very interesting, assuming they got past what Wray thinks about when she is lying down or to what uses she would put her favourite cup.

regards,
G.

PS - might this all be some kind of plot by those Bene Gesserit witches to breed a Kwisatz Haderach?

The_Asgard_live
April 22nd, 2011, 09:03 AM
It's not what is being said on the subject, it's the tone of some of what is being said. Maybe I just expect more from people. And while humour is something which I personally like to inject into conversation when-ever possible (and appropriate), I reserve the right to criticize others for what I feel is inappropriate or misplaced levity. Others should feel free to do the same to me. :)

One man's Louis CK is another man's carrot top.


It's not just a question of "does Wray lie back and think of Novus or impregnate herself with sperm from a test tube?" (something which I'm pretty sure they do not have), this is a question which applies to every woman on that planet. Just because TJ or Chloe or Park or James etc are heterosexual (or at least we have seen that they are quite willing to have sexual intercourse) does not mean that they would be any more willing to "lie back and think of Novus" with any guy other than their current significant other. Wray's sexual orientation is used as a means for us to start talking about the subject, but we are supposed to take that next step and apply what we talk about to the group as a whole. However, talk mostly just stops with discussions of "what would Wray do?" and we neglect the rest of the group except for some discussion of whether TJ would have a child by Varro.

You are of course right that the other women on the planet are also going to have a hard time with the idea of being baby machines (most likely). It is also worthy of a discussion, but I still maintain that Wray's case is more interesting and obviously more controversial.


The basic issues of survival in early Novan society would be: food, water, shelter, sex, and any other things needed to exist. Who is sleeping with who would be of great importance, so much so you'd be even more tired of it than you are now. Might a Novan twist on the old saying, "Have sex for love, but marry for money" become "Marry for love, but have sex for genes"? Might such a thing become commonplace in Novan society? You can marry someone, you just can't have children with them? Why should we assume that after X number of generations would revert to how we as a society operate?

To be honest, the most interesting aspect of the episode to me is how far a society founded by scientists possessing current (and very advanced) knowledge could advance. Wray is a distant second.


PS - might this all be some kind of plot by those Bene Gesserit witches to breed a Kwisatz Haderach?

Fear is the mind killer.

Gollumpus
April 22nd, 2011, 09:40 AM
One man's Louis CK is another man's carrot top.

Carrot Top? Meh, he needs to loosen up on stage...


You are of course right that the other women on the planet are also going to have a hard time with the idea of being baby machines (most likely). It is also worthy of a discussion, but I still maintain that Wray's case is more interesting and obviously more controversial.

It is interesting and controversial to me only as a side note to the larger issue of how the breeding program will affect Novan culture. Obviously "other Wray" had children. Apparently "our Wray" does not seem to have any problem with that, perhaps since it was not her who had to make that decision but her other self. Would "our Wray" come to the same decisions? The larger issue of how the breeding program will affect Novan culture is by far the more interesting issue.


To be honest, the most interesting aspect of the episode to me is how far a society founded by scientists possessing current (and very advanced) knowledge could advance. Wray is a distant second.

Current (and very advanced) knowledge but without the tools to apply a lot (most?) of that knowledge, yes.

regards,
G.

PS - so who is going to sire the Harkonnen line?

Nth Chevron
April 22nd, 2011, 04:39 PM
Lets just hope there's no Freddy Krueger adaptation with someone walking around with 5 Gom' jabbar's on each hand ...

N.C

GKVector
April 22nd, 2011, 10:14 PM
Remember, a woman can only have on baby at a time but a man can impregnate multiple women. You would need, at least for the first few generations, more girls than boys. Until you can reach some kind of "magic number" where monogamy will be sustainable. In short, as a fertile female Wray would have been too valuable not to have had a baby.

This does mean that there will be some degree of inbreeding probably occurred, at least in the early generations of the Novus population. The term for this is called Pedigree Collapse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_collapse).

Biology and genetics are not my strong points by any means, but I believe that in order to diversify a genetic pool as small as this (80 people), they'd have to pair virtually every male with every female in the first generation, at least as far as practical. And with a scientific community, they'd know that and take steps.

morrismike
April 23rd, 2011, 04:37 AM
Biology and genetics are not my strong points by any means, but I believe that in order to diversify a genetic pool as small as this (80 people), they'd have to pair virtually every male with every female in the first generation, at least as far as practical. And with a scientific community, they'd know that and take steps.

no
no
no

If relations occur with people further seperated than 2nd cousins, then everything will be OK. If there is only 15 females then the next generation should have at least 30 females. When those 30 female are available there are still 60 males of the original crew available plus at least 30 young men. For a while it would suck being a young man looking for a wife but thems the breaks. There should not even be difficulties avoiding blood relations (let alone 2nd cousins). The real issue is encouraging those with good genes to have more kids and those with bad genes (dumb kids, nearsighted kid, sickly, etc.) to stop or at least switch partners. In a society with no money, adequate food and water, male providers, etc. the families would be a couple and have 5 or 6 children. Societal pressure will keep incest under control. It would also be a safe bet those 80 folks contain about 60% of the diversity in the entire species, good lord the average IQ of these folks is well above 100 and I seriously doubt there is the human refuse mucking up the gene pool like we have on earth.

eonflux
April 24th, 2011, 12:44 AM
all human beings have a desire to procreate, and it's obvious that it exists with straight AND gay couples.

I dont know where you get your insight from but this is just not true.

Anyway I think she did everything to help get the settlement going. Looking at her nature in SGU she is like that.

morrismike
April 24th, 2011, 04:14 AM
I dont know where you get your insight from but this is just not true.

Anyway I think she did everything to help get the settlement going. Looking at her nature in SGU she is like that.

millions of gay people have kids, some even resort to adoption to obtain
Having kids is hardwired into women just like making them is hardwired into men. We all choose to engage in whatever type of relationships trip our trigger but the birds and the bees rules all.

thekillman
April 24th, 2011, 09:21 AM
simple fact:

if being gay is natural

it has to be genetic

if it's genetic, homosexuals would've had to procreate to pass it on


ergo homosexuals can procreate.



it's just that in modern times, there's a homophobia (no denying it) where men and women alike have problems with even implied homosexuality.


2000+ years ago in greece, it was accepted as a natural extension of friendship. it's just that the phobia today makes many aspects of it hard to imagine for many people because they chose not to think about it

Naquadah_nut
April 24th, 2011, 10:27 AM
The reason i started my post with my best friend is a lesbian is because she was the first person i asked, and then my other friend is the president of the LGBTQ (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual,Transexual, Queer) society. which has a very large number of members, from all ages, races, degrees of homosexuality and genders, it contains gay men, women, trans gender individuals, bi sexuals, and when i asked they all were unanimus in the fact they would procreate to continue the human race, even if it meant engaging in sexual intercourse, but that isnt to say it is theyre preferred method of conception, if some form of IVF or turkey baster technique was viable, id imagine they would choose that over it, i just asked about sex. im also at the university of bradford, this is one of the most international schools in the UK, with students from over 150 countries across all continents, and this society contained representatives from a large proportion of these counties and every continent around the world ( apart from antarctica) so it was a very large sample group

morrismike
April 24th, 2011, 12:06 PM
The reason i started my post with my best friend is a lesbian is because she was the first person i asked, and then my other friend is the president of the LGBTQ (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual,Transexual, Queer) society. which has a very large number of members, from all ages, races, degrees of homosexuality and genders, it contains gay men, women, trans gender individuals, bi sexuals, and when i asked they all were unanimus in the fact they would procreate to continue the human race, even if it meant engaging in sexual intercourse, but that isnt to say it is theyre preferred method of conception, if some form of IVF or turkey baster technique was viable, id imagine they would choose that over it, i just asked about sex. im also at the university of bradford, this is one of the most international schools in the UK, with students from over 150 countries across all continents, and this society contained representatives from a large proportion of these counties and every continent around the world ( apart from antarctica) so it was a very large sample group

Your friend was likely very insulted by that question.

Naquadah_nut
April 24th, 2011, 05:21 PM
actually she is a fan of the show and knew why i was asking, and far from being offended they thought of it as a thinking/ whatif exercise, and surprised themselves by what they would likely do to help the human race survive, cos as they put it, this is it! 80 people and u want to make as varied a gene pool as possible to avoid interbreeding and u need to pass your knowledge on to the next generation of people to help them survive, what better that having a son/daughter to teach.

Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble
April 24th, 2011, 06:19 PM
We don't know how but we just know she does.

morbosfist
April 24th, 2011, 07:42 PM
We don't know if she does for sure. She could have just passed on the name and language. It's more than likely that she did, given the situation, but you can't really say for sure.

thekillman
April 25th, 2011, 01:59 AM
Your friend was likely very insulted by that question.

actually i doubt that. wouldn't it be selfish beyond measure if they didn't. people have done horrible acts in the past to continue the existence of mankind. it might be horrible to them, but that makes them either heroes or the people who did what was necessary.

Naquadah_nut
April 26th, 2011, 10:56 AM
problem solved, she stayed single, didnt have kids (selfish) and died very old, but with amazingly young eyes and voice :D