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onik
April 20th, 2011, 04:19 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but they were weeks away from Novas in this episode and even if months away from their location in Twin Destinies, the fact they went back 2000 years means a gate existed for them to go back to. What am I missing?

Archetype
April 20th, 2011, 04:57 AM
I don't think you're missing anything. This establishes that stargates have been planted by seedships in this galaxy at least 2000 years prior to Destiny's arrival. I don't believe that contradicts anything previously stated on the show.

If you're referring to Eli's explanation that they wound up on Novus because "there wasn't a gate there 2000 years ago", he was talking about the gate on board Destiny. I believe what he meant was, the wormhole was redirected to Novus instead of looping back to Destiny because Destiny's gate wasn't there 2000 years ago.

Jedi_Master_Bra'tac
April 20th, 2011, 05:04 AM
It probably wasn't exactly 2000 years

SaberBlade
April 20th, 2011, 05:34 AM
When ever a Stargate is used to go back in time, the wormhole double backs on itself and you arrive where you left from just in a different time. So if you left from Earth in the 2,011 and travelled back in time 2,000 years, you should come through the wormhole in the year 0,011 on Earth.

Because Destiny wasn't in that region of space 2,000 years ago, when the wormhole double backed it couldn't reconnect to itself so it connected with another gate close by. That's why it was said "there was no Stargate here 2,000 years ago".

It is however possible that there were no Stargates there 2,000 years ago and that the same effect of the gate appearing then shimmering away happened as in the episode "1969". If this was the case, they are lucky they didn't wind up in connect to themselves, arrive on Destiny then have the Destiny disappear. However the effect of time travel using a Stargate, while mostly consistent is changed for plot purposes.

traylormatt
April 20th, 2011, 07:02 AM
I can see there being a gate there 2,000 years before Destiny arrived. Only if Destiny has been traveling for millions of years. If the seed ships are just a little bit faster than Destiny then over the space of millions of years the seed ships could pull a few thousand years ahead.

Two brothers leave their house at the same time. They both are driving to the shops but one is in a people carrier and the other is in a smaller sports car. They are not going to arrive at the shops at the same time. The smaller sports car will get there first.

If the seed ships are x amount faster than Destiny every year say, multiply that over millions of years and you have a few thousand year cushion. We saw the ruins on that one planet that had a Stargate. We don't know if the seed ships would have been programmed to plant a gate on a planet that already has intelligent life, personally id say they wouldn't (though this could have been how the blue aliens found out about Destiny) so if something evolved after the gates got there then it must have been some time between building a society and it becoming ruins.

Puddle-Jumper
April 20th, 2011, 07:19 AM
I don't think you're missing anything. This establishes that stargates have been planted by seedships in this galaxy at least 2000 years prior to Destiny's arrival. I don't believe that contradicts anything previously stated on the show.

It doesn't contradict anything, 2000 years may just be a bit longer then what we might have been expecting.. but then again 2000 years in the grand scheme of things... given how long Destiny has been running.... isn't really that much

Nth Chevron
April 20th, 2011, 07:52 AM
I dont think any of us actually imagined he Seed ships to be so far ahead of Destiny.

But if thats true then doesnt it mean any information about an area received from the Seeder ships is null and void as soon as they read it/find it.

Which explains no knowledge of the Blues/Ursini/Drones, now we know this (but no season 3 :'( ) i would find it more scary if the Seed ships reported on a space fairing people, in 2000 years they could be a much bigger threat or maybe more peaceful..

N.C

Puddle-Jumper
April 20th, 2011, 09:05 AM
Thats a good point about the seed ships and the drones, the timeline fits. which is EXTREMELY odd for something in stargate....

Shadow_7
April 20th, 2011, 09:21 AM
Of course would the older model ships (seed ships) have the faster engines? Granted that Destiny seems predestined to stop a lot. More so with Rush pushing buttons. But perhaps some benevolent aliens (faith planet) might have restored them to factory condition and they took the lead. Or perhaps a faster scout seed ship to plant one gate per galaxy just to test the waters. And let the other seed ships know if it's worth the effort.

We don't really know much about the seed ships at this point. Aside from one broken one that might only be one of many different types. Gatherers, Makers, Planters, and whatever other specialization(s).

Of course if they're that diversified, there would have to be many hundreds of them out there. If only to survive the attrition factor. Or for spare parts on a rainy day. To meet up one day and form Voltron... Oh wait, wrong series...

zainea13
April 20th, 2011, 12:43 PM
Also, in continuum, they gated to a different planet in the past. Totally can happen. The wormhole just has to be bent out of its standard flow. This happens from massive gravitational pull, according to the show.

SaberBlade
April 20th, 2011, 01:04 PM
Also, in continuum, they gated to a different planet in the past. Totally can happen. The wormhole just has to be bent out of its standard flow. This happens from massive gravitational pull, according to the show.

We don't know for sure he gated to a different planet. All we know is an appropriate solar was found and Mitchell went through the Gate. If it followed normal time travel rules (of sort) that we've seen happen before, Mitchell should have found himself back on the planet he left. This would have given him 10 years to find a way back to Earth. We also never saw Baal going back, so he should have also arrived in the past on the planet he original left. For the purpose of storytelling, we don't get to see what really happened.

Telford going back in time and arriving on Earth, or even the Descendants going back in time and arriving on another planet was a change to how we've seen time travel done before simply because these episodes wouldn't have worked without the changes. Tney should have looped back, arrived back on Destiny and like the episode "1969", time would have changed around them and they'd be dead in space because the ship wasn't there 2,000 years ago. Telford in theory should have arrived back on Destiny 12 hours earlier assuming that his Destiny and Destiny 12 hours earlier were in the same Point of Origin area so the gate would have connected to itself, he'd come through safe. If not, he too should have found himself floating in space dead.

Nth Chevron
April 20th, 2011, 04:13 PM
I think its safe to say that the solar flares that make the gate do a 180 and a flare that just warps the wormhole for time travel but still ends up at the intended location have different characteristics.

N.C

erotavlas
April 20th, 2011, 04:42 PM
It is however possible that there were no Stargates there 2,000 years ago and that the same effect of the gate appearing then shimmering away happened as in the episode "1969". If this was the case, they are lucky they didn't wind up in connect to themselves, arrive on Destiny then have the Destiny disappear. However the effect of time travel using a Stargate, while mostly consistent is changed for plot purposes.

If that were the case then their decendants would have witnessed a seed ship plant the stargate on Novus at a later time, which would have been cool to see.

FrodoFraggins
April 20th, 2011, 05:59 PM
What about the SG-1 episode "1969" where they went back in time to a location that had no stargate. The gate dematerialized after they arrived. Seemed pretty hokey to me.

blueray
April 20th, 2011, 06:06 PM
i think that the reason why the crew were sent to novus was because as said the flair would have sent them back to destiny but since it wasn't there 2000 years prior the wormhole jumped to the nearest stargate which was on novus.

telford went through the gate before it got unstable so he ended up on earth safe, except since destiny was sent back in time, he ended up in our reality where the crew hadn't attempt to use the stargate yet.

blueray
April 20th, 2011, 06:09 PM
What about the SG-1 episode "1969" where they went back in time to a location that had no stargate. The gate dematerialized after they arrived. Seemed pretty hokey to me.

yeah as much as i love that episode that bothers me. it doesn't make sense that they would end up in the gate room except for a plot reason. i think what they should have done is have them start where the gate is and be taken away by the government. then have them trying to get back to the gate.

D Toccs
April 20th, 2011, 06:16 PM
What about the SG-1 episode "1969" where they went back in time to a location that had no stargate. The gate dematerialized after they arrived. Seemed pretty hokey to me.

That was the very first instance of time travel in SG, so it's probably just that the rules hadn't been established by the writers yet. It does bother me a little, but I'm willing to forgive little things like that while the writers were still finding their footing.

Ziel
April 20th, 2011, 06:22 PM
When ever a Stargate is used to go back in time, the wormhole double backs on itself and you arrive where you left from just in a different time. So if you left from Earth in the 2,011 and travelled back in time 2,000 years, you should come through the wormhole in the year 0,011 on Earth.

Because Destiny wasn't in that region of space 2,000 years ago, when the wormhole double backed it couldn't reconnect to itself so it connected with another gate close by. That's why it was said "there was no Stargate here 2,000 years ago".

It is however possible that there were no Stargates there 2,000 years ago and that the same effect of the gate appearing then shimmering away happened as in the episode "1969". If this was the case, they are lucky they didn't wind up in connect to themselves, arrive on Destiny then have the Destiny disappear. However the effect of time travel using a Stargate, while mostly consistent is changed for plot purposes.

But if they arrived on the planet and saw the Gate disappear I think that they may have found it interesting enough to note in Kino footage etc. Also no Gate means they wouldn't have been able to gate travel.

I can see there being a gate there 2,000 years before Destiny arrived. Only if Destiny has been traveling for millions of years. If the seed ships are just a little bit faster than Destiny then over the space of millions of years the seed ships could pull a few thousand years ahead.

Two brothers leave their house at the same time. They both are driving to the shops but one is in a people carrier and the other is in a smaller sports car. They are not going to arrive at the shops at the same time. The smaller sports car will get there first.

If the seed ships are x amount faster than Destiny every year say, multiply that over millions of years and you have a few thousand year cushion. We saw the ruins on that one planet that had a Stargate. We don't know if the seed ships would have been programmed to plant a gate on a planet that already has intelligent life, personally id say they wouldn't (though this could have been how the blue aliens found out about Destiny) so if something evolved after the gates got there then it must have been some time between building a society and it becoming ruins.
Wait so are you saying that you think that the Seed ships are faster than Destiny?


Of course would the older model ships (seed ships) have the faster engines? Granted that Destiny seems predestined to stop a lot. More so with Rush pushing buttons.
Yes Destiny has to stop to gate to planets and gather supplies, but the Seed ships need to stop to, I assume, gather material to build Gates, assemble Gates (although this may be done in FTL) and then drop off the Gates on the proper worlds.


What about the SG-1 episode "1969" where they went back in time to a location that had no stargate. The gate dematerialized after they arrived. Seemed pretty hokey to me.

So ''Hokey'' that TPTB changed they're minds halfway through ''1969''.

Nth Chevron
April 20th, 2011, 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by Shadow_7
Of course would the older model ships (seed ships) have the faster engines? Granted that Destiny seems predestined to stop a lot. More so with Rush pushing buttons.
Yes Destiny has to stop to gate to planets and gather supplies, but the Seed ships need to stop to, I assume, gather material to build Gates, assemble Gates (although this may be done in FTL) and then drop off the Gates on the proper worlds.

This is where my theory of leapfrog comes into more light imo.

1 Seed ship stops in one galaxy and fills it with gates, whilst the next Seed ship stops in the next and gathers resources to build the gates, #1 finishes seeding and heads to galaxy 3 leaving #2 to Seed galaxy 2 and Seed #3 has finished its Seed of the galaxy before 1 and heads of to galaxy 3 to begin harvesting.

N.C

Shylodog
April 20th, 2011, 06:28 PM
Wait so are you saying that you think that the Seed ships are faster than Destiny?

I would say they have to be faster than Destiny, simply because they have to routinely stop to gather materials and plant gates. But that's just my opinion.

Nth Chevron
April 20th, 2011, 06:28 PM
Also dont forget were talking about an indeterminate amount of Seed ships ahead of Destiny.

N.C

Ekras
April 20th, 2011, 07:18 PM
What about the SG-1 episode "1969" where they went back in time to a location that had no stargate. The gate dematerialized after they arrived. Seemed pretty hokey to me.

Actually the gate-ROOM dematerialized. Essentially reality shifted. It was the very first time-travel episode and they were still making the rules. I throw it in the same pile as 3-shots with a Zat disintegrates.

garhkal
April 20th, 2011, 08:34 PM
It is however possible that there were no Stargates there 2,000 years ago and that the same effect of the gate appearing then shimmering away happened as in the episode "1969". If this was the case, they are lucky they didn't wind up in connect to themselves, arrive on Destiny then have the Destiny disappear. However the effect of time travel using a Stargate, while mostly consistent is changed for plot purposes.

That is a good catch.. 1969 did show them coming through a gate which soon vanished...

BadOnion
April 20th, 2011, 10:55 PM
How did they get back in 1969 then? I forget.

thekillman
April 20th, 2011, 11:24 PM
they pulled the gate out of storage.



However the effect of time travel using a Stargate, while mostly consistent is changed for plot purposes.

given the nature and circumstances of time travel with gate's, they're very very lucky that these kind of things happen, in stead of gates blowing up or so.

DigiFluid
April 20th, 2011, 11:25 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but they were weeks away from Novas in this episode and even if months away from their location in Twin Destinies, the fact they went back 2000 years means a gate existed for them to go back to. What am I missing?
That's a really interesting thought, I don't know how I missed it.

Presumably, then, the Ancients spent more than a single generation working on the Destiny project (as stated in Twin Destinies), but rather spent two THOUSAND years working on it :eek:

k1037
April 20th, 2011, 11:44 PM
Even if the Seed ships and Destiny are the same speed, Destiny could easily fall behind.

If they were launched a year before Destiny, stop at more or less the same rate as Destiny does, yet only have to recharge once for every 5 or 10 times Destiny does (they have impressive energy reserves, apparently), they could easily gain a lead of an hour or two every year. Over a million years... that adds up.

EDIT: Did some quickie math. It would need to be about 10 hours a year. Which means the Seed ships would only need to be about 3 seconds faster each hour - it's like going 60.01 mph instead of 60 mph. I imagine the Seed ships would manage that just by being smaller.

thekillman
April 20th, 2011, 11:49 PM
Presumably, then, the Ancients spent more than a single generation working on the Destiny project (as stated in Twin Destinies), but rather spent two THOUSAND years working on it

actually no.


the Seed Ships outnumber Destiny. this means that the Seed Ships work faster than Destiny, thus outrun it.

also Destiny drifted at least once through the Void for an uncertain amount of time inbetween galaxies (Sabotage: "the ship made it barely last time, falling just short")

DigiFluid
April 20th, 2011, 11:52 PM
Also good points. Not entirely concrete (who's to say that the seed ships charge up any more efficiently than Destiny at this point?), but good points nonetheless.

k1037
April 20th, 2011, 11:54 PM
actually no.


the Seed Ships outnumber Destiny. this means that the Seed Ships work faster than Destiny, thus outrun it.

also Destiny drifted at least once through the Void for an uncertain amount of time inbetween galaxies (Sabotage: "the ship made it barely last time, falling just short")

Good point. That drift alone could easily account for thousands of years.

k1037
April 21st, 2011, 12:03 AM
Also good points. Not entirely concrete (who's to say that the seed ships charge up any more efficiently than Destiny at this point?), but good points nonetheless.

It's more the act of stopping.

If someone has a 10-gallon gas tank and someone else has a 100-gallon gas tank, filling the 100 once will take as long as filling the 10 ten times. But the act of finding an off-ramp, rolling into a gas station, swiping your card, etc. - the person with the 100 tank would only need to do that once. Likewise, the Seed ships wouldn't have to find appropriate stars (Destiny seems to be able to handle yellow dwarfs, but hasn't gone near the much more beastly blue variety, nor red giants), drop into an appropriate approach/escape path, etc.

Ultimately, I think this was an oversight on the part of the writers (picked up by a clever fan), but one which does have plausible explanations and falls just short of a plot hole.

Archetype
April 21st, 2011, 04:28 AM
On the subject of the connection between time travel and gates connecting back on themselves, we seem to be forgetting The Last Man episode of Atlantis. Sheppard is traveling back to Atlantis when he is sent 48,000 years into the future. Definitely no looping back in that one.

http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/The_Last_Man

tomaso88
April 21st, 2011, 04:38 AM
On the subject of the connection between time travel and gates connecting back on themselves, we seem to be forgetting The Last Man episode of Atlantis. Sheppard is traveling back to Atlantis when he is sent 48,000 years into the future. Definitely no looping back in that one.

http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/The_Last_Man
yes and also in stargate continuum I think this was a really silly mistake they did but stargate always has silly mistakes like this through the series but who cares is all fiction anyway

Shadow_7
April 21st, 2011, 04:40 AM
What "work" does Destiny do though? It "travels", and stores data, and that's about it. The seed ships manufacture and collect materials and other things. Destiny just lugs along enjoying the view. It doen't need massive power reserves as it doesn't manufacture anything. It doesn't even need to slow down or even stop, except to refuel. Baring some yet to be mentioned quirk on the drives that requires rest / tachyon sweep. And the rest stop aspect of letting the crew get out and stretch their legs.

Ziel
April 21st, 2011, 04:45 AM
On the subject of the connection between time travel and gates connecting back on themselves, we seem to be forgetting The Last Man episode of Atlantis. Sheppard is traveling back to Atlantis when he is sent 48,000 years into the future. Definitely no looping back in that one.

http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/The_Last_Man

I was under the impression that Sheppard managed to make it to Atlantis was because the solar flare activity was in Atlantis's sun

tomaso88
April 21st, 2011, 04:48 AM
I was under the impression that Sheppard managed to make it to Atlantis was because the solar flare activity was in Atlantis's sun
are you sure it was atlantis's sun? cause i always thought it was the planets sun and if it was atlantis's sun wouldn't of he still be sent back to the planet since it does a loop

tomaso88
April 21st, 2011, 04:51 AM
I would also like to mention the this issue happened in Stargate Universe episode "Time",

garhkal
April 21st, 2011, 04:12 PM
Good point. That drift alone could easily account for thousands of years.

Heck more most likely.


What "work" does Destiny do though? It "travels", and stores data, and that's about it. The seed ships manufacture and collect materials and other things. Destiny just lugs along enjoying the view. It doen't need massive power reserves as it doesn't manufacture anything. It doesn't even need to slow down or even stop, except to refuel. Baring some yet to be mentioned quirk on the drives that requires rest / tachyon sweep. And the rest stop aspect of letting the crew get out and stretch their legs.

It probably automates dropping out to check each seeded planet..

GoodSmeagol
April 21st, 2011, 06:38 PM
*Ok, so I posted this after reading the first page, shoulda read the second.

Everyone is forgetting one very important thing about the speed of Destiny/Seeder Ships....

Destiny's drives are damaged, and it spent thousands of years drifting between galaxies, as stated in "Sabotage".

2k years is a blink of an eye.

I also hold the leapfrog model of seeder ships moving ahead of Destiny, as most plausible.

Shadow_7
April 21st, 2011, 09:08 PM
I believe they said that it "barely" made the last couple of jumps. Not drifted for decades and centuries to make the jumps. With various delays, 3 weeks in sabotage, 4 weeks in faith, ..... dropping out often once on the bridge, for a 4 hour delay per drop. But not 2,000 years worth (yet). And given the SIZE of Destiny it should in theory be able to run circles around the seed ships in terms of raw power / speed. But probably needs to refuel more often as well.

I guess they were lucky to rematerialize on a planet. Since they didn't loop, nor jump to the "closest" gate. (or furthest)

Nth Chevron
April 22nd, 2011, 05:21 AM
Destiny had a naff FTL module for god knows how long, slowing speed and dragging down efficency which means less maximum time possible in FTL, more recharges, even more recharges when the power reserve containment hit 40% of maximum capacity.

If the Seed ships were never damaged then their speed could have easy been faster than Destiny's through FTL, and with there being more Seed ships than Destiny, they have the advantage of Destiny being slower than she should be for untold number of years, even if it was 1 galaxy faster than usual, after all these years your looking at a phenomenal gap by now.

N.C

onik
April 22nd, 2011, 05:43 AM
Yes, that was my understanding as well. Barely made it. But that would be a good source of a delay. The seed ships must also delay in order to deposit the gates, since it seems they wouldn't have beaming technology. Do they do it with some kind of NASA-like airbag ball that bounces down to the surface of a planet, then a few repair bots set it up and dial it to test it, then come back through to the seed ship, which then continues on it's way?

Anyway, it seems a waste of resources for the Ancients to launch many more than two seed ships down the same narrow corridor, so either the one that deposited the Novas gate was 2000 years or so ahead, or Destiny was delayed and the seed ship that the Ursini were in possession of was launched after Destiny. Obviously this seems wrong, but it raises the question how far would the Ursini have doubled back or for how long did they stall that seed ship? 2000 years for them to be on-board and not have accomplished much also seems strange, even though I realize they had hibernation pods.

I just wish SGU could have gone on longer so they could have explored these things more. It would have been interesting, as someone else said, if the crew got stuck on Novas and then a seed ship came along and we got to see just how gates were deposited...even if it was a redundant gate, due to the first seed ship gate becoming inactive.

C'est la vie

garhkal
April 22nd, 2011, 11:51 PM
Lets say each galaxy it 'limps from' it adds a dozen years.... even if it was only 50 galaxies that is 600 years ahead. Thats assuming it was launched at the same time.

onik
April 23rd, 2011, 08:11 AM
Many of you have pointed out that Destiny could have been delayed. Agreed, and we really don't have enough information to know if some of this is what the writers intended, it's a plot hole of some sort, or I'm just two fries short of a happy meal wacko! :jack_new_anime05:

In any case, it seems to me that the following is true:

1) the seed ship that we already have encountered is not responsible for the gates ahead, since it seems the Ursini derailed it from it's mission, therefore a minimum of two exist heading down this corridor of space

2) seed ships have all the same problems that Destiny has; super old, rechargeable, need to cross the void, can be interfered with, etc.

3) seed ships have additional potential for delays due to depositing gates and being more susceptible to being noticed and diverted as a result

3) Destiny may be able to pick up transmissions from the seed ships

4) seed ships were designed to allow Destiny to dock with them

5) seed ships are permanently automated and unmanned

6) Destiny was automated with the intent of being manned


It's logical the Ancients launched the seed ships ahead of Destiny with some kind of gap and that the countdown clock is possibly responsible (in part) for maintaining that gap and if Destiny catches up it could dock (if needed) while waiting.

Obviously it's possibly for Destiny to get delayed and fall behind. As many have said, even 2,000 years over hundreds of thousands or even millions is a minor variation. However, we seem to have two markers now (vague markers, granted). The seed ship the Ursini were aboard and the one that deposited the Novas gate. It seems unlikely the Ursini seed ship was the one that deposited the Novas gate.

So to me it seems you can't have it both ways.

- Seed ship 2,000 years ahead of Destiny
- Destiny delayed to account for large gap
- Ursini seed ship close enough to Destiny for it to catch up

:jack_new_anime05:

Nth Chevron
April 23rd, 2011, 11:47 AM
Or, considering the amount of battle damage Destiny suffered, it might have just dropped out in the middle of a void to let repair dog-bot bring some key systems back online before continuing.

We still dont know how Destiny took the walloping she did when we first got there.

N.C

garhkal
April 23rd, 2011, 05:31 PM
Which to me is a massive pity. It would have been awesome to see the earlier fights..