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Nemises
April 19th, 2011, 08:39 PM
Seemed harsh considering the fact that he never made it to Novus and was stuck all alone in the ship.

Pharaoh Atem
April 19th, 2011, 08:46 PM
Seemed harsh considering the fact that he never made it to Novus and was stuck all alone in the ship.

and lived and died assuming he killed all 70 something people on the ship including Eli. and that holo mandy was also lost with the ship

Nemises
April 19th, 2011, 08:49 PM
and lived and died assuming he killed all 70 something people on the ship including Eli. and that holo mandy was also lost with the ship

He was alone on the ship and the crew used the stargate. He killed no one.

Pharaoh Atem
April 19th, 2011, 08:51 PM
He was alone on the ship and the crew used the stargate. He killed no one.

but he used the stones and check in to see how many made it to earth and found out only telford made it.

Replicator Todd
April 19th, 2011, 08:55 PM
He was alone on the ship and the crew used the stargate. He killed no one.

But do we really know what the other Rush did? He could of tampered with the system when the "other" Destiny dialed Earth.

jelgate
April 19th, 2011, 09:05 PM
Considering the harm he caused to Destiny its not surprising some disliked him.

Shylodog
April 19th, 2011, 09:06 PM
Considering the harm he caused to Destiny its not surprising some disliked him.

What harm did he cause?

Nemises
April 19th, 2011, 09:06 PM
but he used the stones and check in to see how many made it to earth and found out only telford made it.

Yes.

So how did he kill anyone then ? It wasn't his fault and he even warned them about the dangers of dialing while in a star. Infact eli and telford share the blame for the whole incident.

Pharaoh Atem
April 19th, 2011, 09:06 PM
Considering the harm he caused to Destiny its not surprising some disliked him.

and shoving the 'mission' down everyone's throats

D Toccs
April 19th, 2011, 09:08 PM
Seemed harsh considering the fact that he never made it to Novus and was stuck all alone in the ship.

Seems entirely justified considering how much an @$$hole Rush had been to entire crew.

jelgate
April 19th, 2011, 09:08 PM
What harm did he cause?

Killed Riley among many other things

Shylodog
April 19th, 2011, 09:13 PM
Killed Riley among many other things

Didn't Young kill Riley?

Ok, I get it, he's being held responsible for Riley's death.

Pharaoh Atem
April 19th, 2011, 09:15 PM
Didn't Young kill Riley?

Ok, I get it, he's being held responsible for Riley's death.

Franklin told rush that the planet was dangerous and instead of rush telling scott to aboard the mission he just told him to be careful during entry thus losing Riley and a shuttle

Shylodog
April 19th, 2011, 09:17 PM
Franklin told rush that the planet was dangerous and instead of rush telling scott to aboard the mission he just told him to be careful during entry thus losing Riley and a shuttle

I got that as I was writing. I just didn't expand upon my epiphany.

Nemises
April 19th, 2011, 09:21 PM
Luckily half the descendants were somewhat wise and didn't label him as a demon.

dgh64
April 20th, 2011, 12:57 AM
and lived and died assuming he killed all 70 something people on the ship including Eli. and that holo mandy was also lost with the ship

Ummm the holo mandy wasn't put into the ship's computer until later.

Here's what I think happened. The descendants of the original crew learned from the kino footage. Probably someone on the kino said something about Rush, and blamed the situation on him. Over generations, this got blown out of proportion -- this can happen even if you have the original recording to look at, you can still be influenced by your parents' views and something like this can build over time.

david112
April 20th, 2011, 02:15 AM
Agreed. That's probably why when the settlers met him they didn't immediatly accept him, they still held on to their preconceptions even when they were clearly wrong.

morrismike
April 20th, 2011, 04:15 AM
and lived and died assuming he killed all 70 something people on the ship including Eli. and that holo mandy was also lost with the ship
Very possible he sabotogued the gate to sent them there. There is a reason our Greer had him under armed guard during preps to gate home.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 20th, 2011, 05:34 AM
Morris,

Right, so how and why would he kill the entire crew (the crew he needed to continue the "mission") in order to make a point? This was Telford and Eli's screw up.

SaberBlade
April 20th, 2011, 05:38 AM
I don't believe there was hatred for Rush, just the stories of Destiny's crew and their relationship with Rush got twisted. He basically became the Boogieman of those who decided to follow Young. The fact Rush was considered a religious icon of sorts shows he was more revered for being correct about staying on the ship, possibly still being there and coming to find them. Shows that they respected Rush enough to believe he'd come for them.

KEK
April 20th, 2011, 05:47 AM
Young has authoritarian tendencies. It would make sense for him to invent, or at least nurture a dogma to help re-enforce his rule. I don't think the vilification of Rush would have done him any harm at all, well not with his followers anyway...

sholva1
April 20th, 2011, 06:17 AM
What harm did he cause?

you remember the whole trapping them on the other side of the universe part right ?

Artemis-Neith
April 20th, 2011, 06:59 AM
you remember the whole trapping them on the other side of the universe part right ?

I just choose you, cos you're the last one who wrote something like this.

I guess, there's no question about the fact that Rush is responsible for stranding the people onboard Destiny.

But, there's a difference between being responsible for causing the death of someone (Riley), and killing people just because it's funny to do? No? The difference is did he intend to kill someone? And a not unimportant question is, did the writers wanted Rush intentionally kill all the people, or not. I think, it's not.

And as mentioned before, Rush wasn't responsible for Eli's failed experiment, he tried to save the people, after the wormhole gets instable (after Telford was through to earth), and did not try to kill them deliberately, or send them deliberately, just because it's so funny to do so, to some random planet into a different timeline.

I got it, some of you think, it's exactly that. But, you'll never convince me, and I'll never convince you, be it.

jelgate
April 20th, 2011, 08:01 AM
I just choose you, cos you're the last one who wrote something like this.

I guess, there's no question about the fact that Rush is responsible for stranding the people onboard Destiny.

But, there's a difference between being responsible for causing the death of someone (Riley), and killing people just because it's funny to do? No? The difference is did he intend to kill someone? And a not unimportant question is, did the writers wanted Rush intentionally kill all the people, or not. I think, it's not.

And as mentioned before, Rush wasn't responsible for Eli's failed experiment, he tried to save the people, after the wormhole gets instable (after Telford was through to earth), and did not try to kill them deliberately, or send them deliberately, just because it's so funny to do so, to some random planet into a different timeline.

I got it, some of you think, it's exactly that. But, you'll never convince me, and I'll never convince you, be it.

On the contrary. I definitly support that. Rush was not responsible for the issue of Twin Destinies but the problems he caused in the two years on Destiny does bring some bad blood.

Shylodog
April 20th, 2011, 08:02 AM
you remember the whole trapping them on the other side of the universe part right ?

You didn't read further down the thread before you posted. I figured it out.

carmencatalina
April 20th, 2011, 10:36 AM
There seemed to be some people that thought he was a "demon", but the elder also said that there were those among the Futurans that "worshiped him like a god".

So it seems that, even in the past/future, there was a difference of opinion on Dr. Rush! (Much like there is here on Gateworld, which to me indicates that he is a fabulous character.)

kimmyg
April 20th, 2011, 12:59 PM
Here's something interesting from the transcript of Twin Destinies - I've been trying to figure out what Rush did since watching the show.

ALT-RUSH: The wormhole was unstable.

TELFORD: I'm talking about what really happened.

ALT-RUSH: Their blood is on your hands, not mine.

TELFORD (yelling): They would have all made it home but you did something!

(He pokes his finger repeatedly onto Rush's chest as he speaks.)

ALT-RUSH (also yelling): I was trying to buy them some time!

He was trying to buy them some time ... to do what? I thought he was trying to get the wormhole stable so they could get through to earth not buy them time. So what was Rush doing? Did he somehow figure out how to shift the wormhole closer to a solar flare hoping it would loop back onto Destiny thereby convincing people they couldn't get home?

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 20th, 2011, 01:03 PM
There seemed to be some people that thought he was a "demon", but the elder also said that there were those among the Futurans that "worshiped him like a god".

So it seems that, even in the past/future, there was a difference of opinion on Dr. Rush! (Much like there is here on Gateworld, which to me indicates that he is a fabulous character.)yes, and we've (maybe yet to see) how the Futurans (It's a FONT! LOL) viewed Young - perhaps they had sections of the population that viewed him in unflattering light as well. I think the point is that all the differences in the "sides" haven't changed much, even over 1000's of years, it's "Divided" written large

blueray
April 20th, 2011, 01:11 PM
i definitely don't blame alt-rush for what happened. he said for the beginning that he was against it, but was okay if people stayed to help him with destiny (which they were going too) the wormwhole was unstable and telford was the only one that made it through before it became unstable. at the time it seemed that if the rest of the crew stayed on destiny they all would have died, so rush ordered them through the gate. they went and instead of dying got stuck on a planet in the past. which wasn't remotely rush's fault.

as for riley rush didn't intend to kill him. sure he knew the planet was dangerous, but he didn't listen to franklin on how dangerous. and he did warn scott (sure a little late, but at least he did that). as for riley's actual death it was simply an accident.

as for stranding them on the ship rush was just trying to save them but yeah he should have sent them to earth or just another planet in the milkyway. so yeah i can see why the crew blames him for that.

my guess is as time went on the blame about various things he had done on destiny (such as lie about the bridge) led to the hatred for him as generations went on.

Shai Hulud
April 20th, 2011, 01:16 PM
Rush was the reason for the Icarus Base personel being on the Destiny in the first place. That was bound to leave an underlying, simmering resentment of the man for many of the crew?

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 20th, 2011, 02:00 PM
Shai,


Rush was the reason for the Icarus Base personel being on the Destiny in the first place. That was bound to leave an underlying, simmering resentment of the man for many of the crew?

So, when the people of Novus are killed in the Supervolcano explosion two thousand years after they ended up on Novus it's Rush's fault and responsiblity?

Kaiphantom
April 20th, 2011, 03:33 PM
Killed Riley among many other things

No, he didn't kill Riley. You know this. Please don't repeat a lie over and over again; it makes you look bad. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: there are plenty of things you can knock Rush for, that you don't need to focus on this. It makes you look like Trump, focusing on Obama's birth certificate when there are better issues to address.

Edit: And I'll add that there are apparently people who have a pathological need to hate and demonize Rush. Everything must be his fault somehow. :P

morrismike
April 20th, 2011, 03:43 PM
Morris,

Right, so how and why would he kill the entire crew (the crew he needed to continue the "mission") in order to make a point? This was Telford and Eli's screw up.
Who said he wanted to kill anybody. He probably tried to get cute and prevent a connection.

Puddle-Jumper
April 20th, 2011, 03:46 PM
I don't believe there was hatred for Rush, just the stories of Destiny's crew and their relationship with Rush got twisted. He basically became the Boogieman of those who decided to follow Young. The fact Rush was considered a religious icon of sorts shows he was more revered for being correct about staying on the ship, possibly still being there and coming to find them. Shows that they respected Rush enough to believe he'd come for them.

Exactly

Nth Chevron
April 20th, 2011, 03:49 PM
Young - perhaps they had sections of the population that viewed him in unflattering light

I believe if you watch next weeks promo that there is a statue of Young just as the shuttle sets down, in his characteristic pose of hands behind his back, feet a shoulder width apart standing tall.

I cant remember what the stance is called but i am sure that looks like him, even tho its a 3 second glimpse.

N.C

Kaiphantom
April 20th, 2011, 07:43 PM
Who said he wanted to kill anybody. He probably tried to get cute and prevent a connection.

So, you support accusations without any evidence? Do you not see the problem with doing something like that?

D Toccs
April 20th, 2011, 08:08 PM
So, when the people of Novus are killed in the Supervolcano explosion two thousand years after they ended up on Novus it's Rush's fault and responsiblity?

No, but by that time he had been deified as a "demon", so no one is actually blaming the man Rush for the volcano, they are blaming the Demon.

As to the original crew's hatred of him, it's perfectly reasonable. He is responsible for stranding them on Destiny in the first place and he lied to them and manipulated them every step of the way, it was obvious they already disliked him when before the dial out he started his speech with, "my friends" and was met with a cold silence.

Once on Novus, no one actually blamed Rush for the wormhole, Eli flat out states that many of the crew placed the blame for the wormhole on the Alt. Eli.
However they still disliked Rush and the fact that they wouldn't have been on Destiny to get stranded on Novus in the first place, if Rush had just let Riley dial Earth . . . well that is not really going to lead to a favorable image of the man.

Gollumpus
April 20th, 2011, 08:14 PM
Yay, we're back to the whole "who hates Rush and what is he responsible for?" content. I suspect there's a spot or two that horse which hasn't been kicked, maybe. :P


So, when the people of Novus are killed in the Supervolcano explosion two thousand years after they ended up on Novus it's Rush's fault and responsiblity?

Arguably, the answer is yes. It was Rush who chose (correctly) not to send the Icarus base personnel back to Earth. It was also Rush who chose to send them to the destination of the gate address which resulted in them all winding up on Destiny. If they did not wind up on Destiny then they would not have been around to found the colony on Novus, which was wiped out by the volcano.

regards,
G.

D Toccs
April 20th, 2011, 08:25 PM
It was Rush who chose (correctly) not to send the Icarus base personnel back to Earth.

In no way was that correct decision. Rush's decision to not dial Earth but dial the 9th Chevron was purely for his own selfish reasons. He practically admits as much to Eli when he asks for his help.
Eli says, "are you kidding we have to get out here." and Rush responds with, "Do you know how long it took to find this planet, the properties are unique, we may never get another chance."

Rush can talk all he wants about "blast waves going through the gate to Earth" but the fact is he did it because he was scared that he would never get another chance to try.

If Rush had let Riley dial Earth, the base personnel would not have had to stand around waiting while Young went to get Scott, if Earth had been dialed, the evacuation would have started instantly and everybody would have already been through the gate well before the planet exploded and any potential blast wave occurred.

The conversation between Rush and Eli I quoted word for word above is proof that Rush dialed the 9th chevron for his own reasons.

Gollumpus
April 20th, 2011, 08:30 PM
Correction, chum. It was a correct decision to NOT dial Earth. They could have gone to any number of other planets which were uninhabited and able to support human life for the time it would take to get rescued or otherwise gate back to Earth.

The incorrect (some might say selfish) decision was to dial up the address which resulted in them winding up on Destiny. :)

regards,
G.

D Toccs
April 20th, 2011, 08:38 PM
I can agree with that. You're right that any other planet could have been dialed.

I still think that dialing Earth would have been perfectly safe, even if there was a "blast wave", it's just a simple mater of the last person through uttering 3 little words , "close the Iris"

garhkal
April 20th, 2011, 08:48 PM
Franklin told rush that the planet was dangerous and instead of rush telling scott to aboard the mission he just told him to be careful during entry thus losing Riley and a shuttle

He gave scott info. Scott was the one who could have turned back. to get more.. So technically Scott is also to blame.


He was trying to buy them some time ... to do what? I thought he was trying to get the wormhole stable so they could get through to earth not buy them time. So what was Rush doing? Did he somehow figure out how to shift the wormhole closer to a solar flare hoping it would loop back onto Destiny thereby convincing people they couldn't get home?

It seems we will never know now.


I cant remember what the stance is called but i am sure that looks like him, even tho its a 3 second glimpse.

Parade Rest


Arguably, the answer is yes. It was Rush who chose (correctly) not to send the Icarus base personnel back to Earth. It was also Rush who chose to send them to the destination of the gate address which resulted in them all winding up on Destiny. If they did not wind up on Destiny then they would not have been around to found the colony on Novus, which was wiped out by the volcano.

And they would have had none of the blame for deciding to go through the unstable wormhole, thereby goign back in time to another planet.. NOR from using the gate to get off that planet before said supervolcano errupted..??


I still think that dialing Earth would have been perfectly safe, even if there was a "blast wave", it's just a simple mater of the last person through uttering 3 little words , "close the Iris"

And what if the wave came before the last one made it??

jelgate
April 20th, 2011, 08:56 PM
He gave scott info. Scott was the one who could have turned back. to get more.. So technically Scott is also to blame.

He gave Scott some vague information. Hardly everything he knew about the danger. It wasn't his place to make the decision.

D Toccs
April 20th, 2011, 09:00 PM
And what if the wave came before the last one made it??

As I already established, I don't believe a word of Rush's "blast wave" speech. It was just his attempt to justify why he had not dialed Earth.

No blast wave came through the wormhole once they got to Destiny.

Gollumpus
April 20th, 2011, 09:18 PM
And they would have had none of the blame for deciding to go through the unstable wormhole, thereby goign back in time to another planet.. NOR from using the gate to get off that planet before said supervolcano errupted..??

Correct!! Now you're getting it. Rush would be absolved of so many sins if he had not set the machinery in motion which landed all those people on Destiny in the first place.

regards,
G.

Shylodog
April 20th, 2011, 09:35 PM
No blast wave came through the wormhole once they got to Destiny.

Actually it did, as it launched Young across the gate room. It just wasn't nearly as big as Rush said it could be.

D Toccs
April 20th, 2011, 09:40 PM
Actually it did, as it launched Young across the gate room. It just wasn't nearly as big as Rush said it could be.

That wasn't a blast wave, Young exited the wormhole at the same speed and angle that he entered it. We he entered the wormhole he was being thrown through the air by the explosion.

If the blast wave itself had gone through the gate, then the people in immediate vicinity of the gate would have all been thrown forward off their feet.
Instead they all stood or sat there while Young flew over the top of them.

Shylodog
April 20th, 2011, 09:43 PM
That wasn't a blast wave, Young exited the wormhole at the same speed and angle that he entered it. We he entered the wormhole he was being thrown through the air by the explosion.

If the blast wave itself had gone through the gate, then the people in immediate vicinity of the gate would have all been thrown forward off their feet.
Instead they all stood or sat there while Young flew over the top of them.

Good point. I stand corrected, Sir.

Shai Hulud
April 21st, 2011, 01:01 AM
He gave Scott some vague information. Hardly everything he knew about the danger. It wasn't his place to make the decision.

It's not a pilot's place to make decisions about the flight he is undertaking? You come out with some right royal wibble but that takes the biscuit chappie.

D Toccs
April 21st, 2011, 01:09 AM
It's not a pilot's place to make decisions about the flight he is undertaking? You come out with some right royal wibble but that takes the biscuit chappie.

You've completely misunderstood his comment.

morrismike
April 21st, 2011, 04:05 AM
He gave Scott some vague information. Hardly everything he knew about the danger. It wasn't his place to make the decision.
+1

jelgate
April 21st, 2011, 06:48 AM
It's not a pilot's place to make decisions about the flight he is undertaking? You come out with some right royal wibble but that takes the biscuit chappie.

Leave the personal atracks out of it. The decision context was about Rush.

Kaiphantom
April 21st, 2011, 07:28 AM
Leave the personal atracks out of it. The decision context was about Rush.

You still have me blocked, which some might see as another childish move, but do we care? Not really. The points still stand: you want to blame Rush for everything. Young who had his hand on Riley? Or Scott who was flying the shuttle? Nope. That's some pretty strong cognitive dissonance you have going on. You even wanted to deny the existence of a third docking slip on Destiny despite getting photograph evidence pointing out all three.

So yeah, you're mind is pretty much made up, and won't be changed no matter what. Everyone else on Earth could come out against you, and God himself could come down and tell you that you're wrong, but it wouldn't matter. So, I don't care if you don't see my posts; everyone else can, and they can make up their minds for themselves, whether they want to side with someone whose mind is so closed, they'll disregard photographic evidence from the show itself in favor of their own viewpoint.

As I said before, you can knock Rush for some things, but this ain't one, sorry.

Trinary
April 21st, 2011, 07:30 AM
In the 2nd half of this episode, those Novusians prophecies begin to take shape. I hope to see on the next episode Rush is actually help them and the alt Rush that supposed to be death in the star are return in form of part human and part of metal exoskeleton and bring with him a fleet of drones attacking the destiny.

That would fit the prophecy that Rush help them and Rush (alt) also the evil that haunted the Novusians. Then, I would be satisfied to know that the alt Rush was the one who made the drones.

Btw, it just my wish if the writer take this path.

garhkal
April 21st, 2011, 04:14 PM
Correct!! Now you're getting it. Rush would be absolved of so many sins if he had not set the machinery in motion which landed all those people on Destiny in the first place.

regards,
G.

So no matter what. ALL things are rushes fault. Regardless of why/how/who chooses..
Just cause rush stranded them.

jelgate
April 21st, 2011, 05:12 PM
So no matter what. ALL things are rushes fault. Regardless of why/how/who chooses..
Just cause rush stranded them.

Not all things but a vast quanity of problems can be traced back to Rush in the way he manipulate people and events

Replicator Todd
April 21st, 2011, 06:21 PM
Not all things but a vast quanity of problems can be traced back to Rush in the way he manipulate people and events

Hehe, Rush is awesome that way! :p

morrismike
April 21st, 2011, 06:21 PM
Not all things but a vast quanity of problems can be traced back to Rush in the way he manipulate people and events
+1000

Duneknight
April 21st, 2011, 06:58 PM
Rush instead of dialing another planet, dialled a ship that was galaxies away and unable to support life for long. That should always haunt him and the writers for not coming up with a better dramatic reason to gate to destiny.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 22nd, 2011, 05:35 AM
jelgate,


Not all things but a vast quanity of problems can be traced back to Rush in the way he manipulate people and events

Those who believe Rush is a total demon and is responsible for all ills that befall the Destiny and her crew need to read up on the doctrine of "The interevening third party".

jelgate
April 22nd, 2011, 07:39 AM
jelgate,



Those who believe Rush is a total demon and is responsible for all ills that befall the Destiny and her crew need to read up on the doctrine of "The interevening third party".

I never said all just a significant portion of problems. History has a tendency to judge a person based on their bigger acts. And on the majority Rush has had the tendency to mantipulate to his advantage

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 22nd, 2011, 07:44 AM
Jelgate,

That doesn't change the analysis regarding blaming Rush for things he had no ability to prevent or that were largely caused by the actions of others.

jelgate
April 22nd, 2011, 07:50 AM
Jelgate,

That doesn't change the analysis regarding blaming Rush for things he had no ability to prevent or that were largely caused by the actions of others.

True but I don't recall examples or that scenario in this thread thouigh they do exist

D Toccs
April 22nd, 2011, 07:54 AM
I always see dealing with Rush as just like dealing with Baal or Todd, they might help out but they always have their own agenda.
The only difference is that no one ever had the illusion that Baal or Todd were actually on their side.

Sure Rush can't be specifically blamed for everything bad that happens. But he certainly hasn't done anything worthy of being looked upon in a favorable light.

Nth Chevron
April 22nd, 2011, 08:23 AM
I wouldnt go that far about Rush, i would more say he had been jaded to his fellow humans because of treatment in the past, we saw in 'Air' that no one really liked the guy.

He was like Spencer in a way but more mentally stable and unstable at the same time.

Add to the mix his wife dying whilst he was away and buried in his work, being left for dead, not really having a single close friend since we've known the man.

I know some of the hardships he has endured are directly his causing but you can see how constant treatment of that sort could make some one less than inclined to follow the flock.

N.C

garhkal
April 22nd, 2011, 11:53 PM
I always see dealing with Rush as just like dealing with Baal or Todd, they might help out but they always have their own agenda.
The only difference is that no one ever had the illusion that Baal or Todd were actually on their side.

Sure Rush can't be specifically blamed for everything bad that happens. But he certainly hasn't done anything worthy of being looked upon in a favorable light.

Hows about being the one who got the Destiny back from the LA?

morrismike
April 23rd, 2011, 04:27 AM
Hows about being the one who got the Destiny back from the LA?
Wasn't he the one that sent them to Destiny?

D Toccs
April 23rd, 2011, 04:32 AM
Hows about being the one who got the Destiny back from the LA?

Using Telford's plan and fully prepared to sacrifice Scott, Greer, Wray and a few other crew members to do it. And yeah, Rush was the one who made it possible for the LA to be on Destiny in the first place.
He did it to save himself and the ship, saving the crew was just an added bonus.

But you're right and no matter his motivations, he was indeed the one who stopped the LA incursion.

morrismike
April 23rd, 2011, 04:44 AM
Using Telford's plan and fully prepared to sacrifice Scott, Greer, Wray and a few other crew members to do it. And yeah, Rush was the one who made it possible for the LA to be on Destiny in the first place.
He did it to save himself and the ship, saving the crew was just an added bonus.

But you're right and no matter his motivations, he was indeed the one who stopped the LA incursion. Had he botched the dialing to destiny, LA never makes it to the ship. You can't have it both ways.

D Toccs
April 23rd, 2011, 04:51 AM
Had he botched the dialing to destiny, LA never makes it to the ship. You can't have it both ways.

I'm not "having it both ways". I said, yes Rush was the one who made it possible for the LA to get to Destiny in the first place. But that doesn't change the fact that he was still the one responsible for stopping their incursion as Garkhal said.
Do I think that it absolves him? No I don't, but it doesn't change the facts.

garhkal
April 23rd, 2011, 05:26 PM
But they wouldn't have even known as much as they did if anything had telford not gotten them all that intel.

morrismike
April 23rd, 2011, 06:54 PM
But they wouldn't have even known as much as they did if anything had telford not gotten them all that intel.
Telford was brainwashed. Rush was saving his own hide.

D Toccs
April 23rd, 2011, 07:29 PM
But they wouldn't have even known as much as they did if anything had telford not gotten them all that intel.

The Lucian Alliance dialing in to Destiny is not something that I hold Rush responsible for. He was being held at gunpoint, Telford had already given the LA all they needed they would have figured it out on their own sooner or later and the stone connection should have been pulled the minute Rush was captured it was Young's decision not too.
The entire situation was messed up, Rush's actions in that situation were not malicious.

But I do not feel that the actions of stopping the LA incursion in any way absolve him of or make up for all the actions he has taken that were malicious and selfish.

Gollumpus
April 23rd, 2011, 09:05 PM
So no matter what. ALL things are rushes fault. Regardless of why/how/who chooses..
Just cause rush stranded them.

Of course not.

Did Rush cause the injuries which Senator Armstrong sustained in the LA attack? No. Did Rush place him in a position where he could not expect to find proper medical attention such that he was doomed to die anyways? Yes.

Did Sgt. Spencer have a medical condition prior to Being on Destiny? Yes. Was being stranded on Destiny a contributing factor in his suicide? Yes.

Is Rush responsible for Franklin sitting in the big chair? Not directly. I believe Rush knew his target and figured there was a good chance he could manipulate Franklin into sitting. Franklin could have refrained from doing so, however, Rush made sure that the temptation was present, provided easy access, and also a certain amount of verbal prompting to the group.

Was Rush 100% responsible for all the factors which led to Riley's death? No. Maybe Scott could have piloted a bit better (assuming he had better information to work with). Perhaps Young should have let Riley die a slow and painful death all alone on that planet rather than put him out of his misery. None of those things really matter because if they were not routed to Destiny by a choice made by Rush then they could not have happened, at least not in the context which they did.

Are all things Rush's fault? Of course not. We may as well say that it was his parents' fault for giving birth to him, or for the Allied side winning World War Two, or perhaps God since he supposedly made Adam and Eve etc....

Rush is responsible for placing the pieces on the board. How each piece moves is up to them (even the pices which Rush influences), but a contributing factor in each choice made in any situation on Destiny has to come back to that first choice made by Rush.


regards,
G.

garhkal
April 24th, 2011, 02:54 PM
I'll give you that.

Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble
April 25th, 2011, 07:07 AM
I thought Young and Rush had put their differences aside after the greater good. He even stood next to Rush when was making his speech and was willing to stay behind with him. I don't understand why he would willing let people view him as a 'demon' or even as a bad guy.

Eli had his equations checked back on Earth and they saw no problem so not entirely Eli's fault.

If any thing Telford should get the blame for telling them to go through the gate. He even said he had a good mind to force them through the gate. With his past experience with being brain washed he is the perfect candidate for being a 'demon' :p.

Gollumpus
April 25th, 2011, 10:26 AM
I thought Young and Rush had put their differences aside after the greater good. He even stood next to Rush when was making his speech and was willing to stay behind with him. I don't understand why he would willing let people view him as a 'demon' or even as a bad guy.

Rush would get demonized by the descendants merely because of word of mouth.

First, he was not there to "defend" himself, or in any way alter people's opinions about him. Since folks would talk about Rush as "the guy who stranded us here" and also just how miserable he could be to get along with, he would start off being a negative personality in the minds of the first generations of kids.

Second, it's the old thing of how ideas change over time, distance and people's memories. Over a number of generations (long after the original crew were dead) Rush would become the "boogeyman" used to scare children, or as a curse word, perhaps even as the "devil" assuming there was some sort of organized religion.

regards,
G.

garhkal
April 25th, 2011, 04:11 PM
True, he would not have had the chance to defend himself. BUT i like the thought that telford would be a better candidate for "demon:"

jelgate
April 25th, 2011, 04:22 PM
True, he would not have had the chance to defend himself. BUT i like the thought that telford would be a better candidate for "demon:"

Why? Telford has always had the best intetions for the welfare of the crew

Nth Chevron
April 25th, 2011, 04:35 PM
The road to hell is paved with them.

And i think Telford only seemed to have the crew at heart for an eventual mutiny against Young

N.C

jelgate
April 25th, 2011, 04:37 PM
The road to hell is paved with them.

And i think Telford only seemed to have the crew at heart for an eventual mutiny against Young

N.C
True but that is largely irrelvent. Unbrainwashed Telford has never tried to harm the crew so thier is no reason to spread a dislike of him on Novious

Nth Chevron
April 25th, 2011, 04:58 PM
yes but we saw him headbutt with Young a couple of times over command decisions when he wasnt consulted.

I always felt he was trying to worm the crew on his side because if it came to another hostile takeover, Young would only have his hardcore of friends (Eli, Scott, Greer, T.J)

And Telford would be able to sow enough doubt in the minds of the lower ranks to maybe poach some.

Its just how i've seen him acting the most when he was among Destiny.

Like going over Youngs head with a list of LA that should stay, resulting in the Simeon situation

N.C

jelgate
April 25th, 2011, 05:01 PM
yes but we saw him headbutt with Young a couple of times over command decisions when he wasnt consulted.

I always felt he was trying to worm the crew on his side because if it came to another hostile takeover, Young would only have his hardcore of friends (Eli, Scott, Greer, T.J)

And Telford would be able to sow enough doubt in the minds of the lower ranks to maybe poach some.

Its just how i've seen him acting the most when he was among Destiny.

Like going over Youngs head with a list of LA that should stay, resulting in the Simeon situation

N.C

Minor disagreements with Young doesn't seem enough justification to make Telford out to be a villian in comparassion to Rush who has actually mantipulated people to get what he wants. Telford has always stayed inside the chain of command. As for the rest it seems irrelvent to the conversation as random speculation.

Nth Chevron
April 25th, 2011, 05:02 PM
True, but from what weve seen Rush do, i could see Telford making the same moves, just 1000x more subtly

N.C

jelgate
April 25th, 2011, 05:05 PM
And I just don't see that. Telford has never given any indication to put his life above the crew like Rush. And that is the primary motivation for him being a demon on Novious

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 26th, 2011, 08:26 AM
Rush would get demonized by the descendants merely because of word of mouth.

First, he was not there to "defend" himself, or in any way alter people's opinions about him. Since folks would talk about Rush as "the guy who stranded us here" and also just how miserable he could be to get along with, he would start off being a negative personality in the minds of the first generations of kids.

Second, it's the old thing of how ideas change over time, distance and people's memories. Over a number of generations (long after the original crew were dead) Rush would become the "boogeyman" used to scare children, or as a curse word, perhaps even as the "devil" assuming there was some sort of organized religion.

regards,
G.

agreed on both points

using the thread to nitpick over all the things he did or didn't do (and what he's done is enough) isn't so much the point as what happens over 2000 years. In the long run, Rush's beliefs and actions didn't fare too well

garhkal
April 26th, 2011, 04:47 PM
Like going over Youngs head with a list of LA that should stay, resulting in the Simeon situation

N.C

True. Telford did go behind his back..


Minor disagreements with Young doesn't seem enough justification to make Telford out to be a villian in comparassion to Rush who has actually mantipulated people to get what he wants. Telford has always stayed inside the chain of command. As for the rest it seems irrelvent to the conversation as random speculation.

Lets see. He overrode young in earth (heck tried to assume command, something i can;t remember them ever corroborating). He went behind his back with his wife. He went behind his back with the LA people... I fail to see how that is using the chain of command.
As to villian.. what of his comment of "Forcing you to all go home"?

jelgate
April 26th, 2011, 05:28 PM
True. Telford did go behind his back..



Lets see. He overrode young in earth (heck tried to assume command, something i can;t remember them ever corroborating). He went behind his back with his wife. He went behind his back with the LA people... I fail to see how that is using the chain of command.
As to villian.. what of his comment of "Forcing you to all go home"?

As I said in a previous comment before non-brainwashed Telford. Most of the crew won't blame him for things he couldn't control