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nahuatl
April 19th, 2011, 06:14 PM
First off hello everyone!!

The Destiny is billions of light years away from earth, closer to the beginnings of the universe right? And the beginning of the universe is where the message/structure is located and that is where the Destiny is headed. Therefore the destiny is billions of years in the past? Can someone clear this up for me?

And if that is the case, then the people of Novus could eventually evolve into the ancients themselves in another temporal paradox. Am I making any sense?

darkthunder84
April 19th, 2011, 07:10 PM
The Destiny is billions of light years away from Earth. But the ship is in our time, following along the exact same timeline as our own (except for the whole secret government Stargate program).

The "Big Bang" as we know it, happened billions of years in the past. That doesn't mean that the "message" or whatever the Destiny is looking for, is in the past. The "message" could've been around this entire time, but we've simply not had anyone near enough to pick it up. Destiny is trying to fulfill that mission.

D Toccs
April 19th, 2011, 07:22 PM
You're understanding of Space/Time is very flawed. I tried writing an explanation for you, but it was a massive wall of text so the best I can say is, if you really want to understand more I would recommend spending some time looking it up.

To answer your questions as simply as possible :
- There is no single point in space that is "the beginning of the universe".
- Things that a billions of light years away are not billions of years in the past.

solarhelios
April 19th, 2011, 09:18 PM
light years is a term of distance, not time

thekillman
April 19th, 2011, 11:04 PM
- Things that a billions of light years away are not billions of years in the past.

no no no no.


when we look into space, we see things as they were. in that case, something a lightyear away is a year in the past.

thus a billion lighyears is a billion years in the past.


HOWEVER.


Destiny has travelled a few billion lightyears.


if we were to look -from earth- at Destiny, we wouldn't see it.

if Destiny looks at us -using RL equipment-, it would see a galaxy in formation.


because Destiny travelled a billion lightyears in FTL, it by definition travelled through time. every time it goes into FTL it travels through time.

any ship going faster than light through whatever means goes back in time.

not ACTUAL time. if we were to build a billion clocks, spaced them across the space between us and destiny, and could use stargates to check upon them, all of them would display the same time.

but if we were to look at them from earth, using real methods, we would see in the past.


because light can not travel faster than the speed of light.

darkthunder84
April 20th, 2011, 02:23 AM
because Destiny travelled a billion lightyears in FTL, it by definition travelled through time. every time it goes into FTL it travels through time.

any ship going faster than light through whatever means goes back in time.

because light can not travel faster than the speed of light.

Your forgetting the concept of "Subspace", which is where ships like the Destiny travel, when they are "in effect" travelling faster than light. Subspace allows them to travel faster than light, without the meddling time dialation effect. Ships approaching the speed of light, travels in "normal time" for everyone aboard the ship. However, time around the ship passes more quickly, and a simple trip at 0.999 Light speed for 10 minutes, could result in a time dialation effect of YEARS. 10 minutes passes for the crew, but the entire galaxy around the ship moves forward several years. Obviously, no object can travel faster than light in normal space, which is why sci-fi often resorts to the concept of Subspace, which functions different from Normal space.

Nth Chevron
April 20th, 2011, 02:28 AM
Incorrect.

Destiny's FTL drive does NOT access subspace to achieve its FTL speed.

We dont know how Destiny's propulsion gets the ship to that speed without entering subspace and not suffer any relativistic effects.

N.C

darkthunder84
April 20th, 2011, 02:47 AM
Incorrect.

Destiny's FTL drive does NOT access subspace to achieve its FTL speed.

We dont know how Destiny's propulsion gets the ship to that speed without entering subspace and not suffer any relativistic effects.

N.C

When did they say that Destiny's FTL drive doesn't access subspace? Seems a bit odd if they've travelled possibly thousands of lightyears (and normal years) into the past/future, and still able to connect with Earth TODAY using the communication stones.

Trinary
April 20th, 2011, 02:49 AM
Gate travel itself is faster than light speed. I guess, FTL is similar to the gate travel. Mass cannot travel faster than light without blowing up. Instead of blown up into a random particles pattern, it's better convert the mass into controlled energy pattern. So, you could re-construct the mass when it travel slower than the speed if light.

The rules not applied to the creature that already able to travel faster than light. As Prot said in K-PAX. :)

Nth Chevron
April 20th, 2011, 02:52 AM
When did they say that Destiny's FTL drive doesn't access subspace? Seems a bit odd if they've travelled possibly thousands of lightyears (and normal years) into the past/future, and still able to connect with Earth TODAY using the communication stones.

I believe it was 'Air'

Rush says something like, "Faster than light, but not through hyperspace."

Hyperspace is subspace :)

Also considering you cant see planets and stars when in subspace, and you can when Destiny is in FTL, its not a unreasonable hypothesis

N.C

darkthunder84
April 20th, 2011, 03:04 AM
I believe it was 'Air'

Rush says something like, "Faster than light, but not through hyperspace."

Hyperspace is subspace :)

Also considering you cant see planets and stars when in subspace, and you can when Destiny is in FTL, its not a unreasonable hypothesis

N.C

Hyperspace is NOT Subspace. They might call it a "Hyperdrive" on ships like the Daedalus, but the ship certainly travels through subspace. Most notable reference being "McKay and Mrs Miller" where Sam (Carter) specifically says that the Daedalus is travelling through subspace.

The part about saying the ship is "In FTL" sounds so wrong anyways. You either travel FTL (faster than light), or slower than light (sublight). Maximum sublight is still well below 0.999 lightspeed, or else ships would be subjected to time dialation effects (as explained above).

gaguhan.galore
April 20th, 2011, 03:07 AM
And if that is the case, then the people of Novus could eventually evolve into the ancients themselves in another temporal paradox. Am I making any sense?
take the concept a little further (destineers themselves into ancients thrown back to the beginning of time or some similar train of thought) and this could be that greatest discovery mankind has ever known since the stargate itself.

and also the cheesiest.

Jedi_Master_Bra'tac
April 20th, 2011, 03:12 AM
First off hello everyone!!

The Destiny is billions of light years away from earth, closer to the beginnings of the universe right? And the beginning of the universe is where the message/structure is located and that is where the Destiny is headed. Therefore the destiny is billions of years in the past? Can someone clear this up for me?

And if that is the case, then the people of Novus could eventually evolve into the ancients themselves in another temporal paradox. Am I making any sense?

Without getting into relativity and sub/hyperspace....

When you look at something that's a million light years away, you see it as it was a million years ago. This is because the light it emitted has taken a million years to reach your eyes. The Destiny is a billion light years away, but it's not in the past, it'll just take a billion years for the light Destiny emits to reach the Earth. If people had epic telescopes in a billion or so years, they'd be able to see the Destiny as it is now.

ipfnd
April 20th, 2011, 04:15 AM
Ouch, my head!!!!

Nth Chevron
April 20th, 2011, 05:34 AM
Hyperspace is NOT Subspace. They might call it a "Hyperdrive" on ships like the Daedalus, but the ship certainly travels through subspace. Most notable reference being "McKay and Mrs Miller" where Sam (Carter) specifically says that the Daedalus is travelling through subspace.

The part about saying the ship is "In FTL" sounds so wrong anyways. You either travel FTL (faster than light), or slower than light (sublight). Maximum sublight is still well below 0.999 lightspeed, or else ships would be subjected to time dialation effects (as explained above).

Stargate Atlantis, 'Millers Crossing' - When the 2 Mckays are talking to Sam on a 304 in hyperspace, Sam mentions subspace which Jeanie then says "so subspace exists" Carters reply is then "your flying through it" with the ship being in hyperspace at the time its implication is that the hyperdrive is a device which allows travel through subspace at far greater speeds than non subspace from what we were aware of at the time.

I would hazard a guess that subspace is called hyperspace because the hyperdrive and the subspace it allows you to access are colloquially linked by design and function

N.C

spaceship
April 20th, 2011, 09:46 AM
What about hyperlinks? Do those have anything to do with hyperspace or is it all just hyperbole?

blueray
April 20th, 2011, 11:58 AM
Without getting into relativity and sub/hyperspace....

When you look at something that's a million light years away, you see it as it was a million years ago. This is because the light it emitted has taken a million years to reach your eyes. The Destiny is a billion light years away, but it's not in the past, it'll just take a billion years for the light Destiny emits to reach the Earth. If people had epic telescopes in a billion or so years, they'd be able to see the Destiny as it is now.

that is how i understand it.

destiny isn't in the past, seeing as they talk to earth in real time using the stones. but destiny is billions of light years away, so if someone could see it from earth, it would be where it was a billion years ago, as that is how long it will take the light to get there.

as for the novus people they were sent back in time 2,000 years so they are 2000 years more evolved then we are, but we are all currently in the present.

and yes hyperlinks sends us through hyperspace ;)

D Toccs
April 20th, 2011, 04:53 PM
when we look into space, we see things as they were. in that case, something a lightyear away is a year in the past.

thus a billion lighyears is a billion years in the past.

You're incorrect.
Yes when we see the light from something a billion light years away, we are seeing light from a billion years ago. However the object itself is not in the past.
Light years is a measure of distance not time.


Destiny has travelled a few billion lightyears.


if we were to look -from earth- at Destiny, we wouldn't see it.

if Destiny looks at us -using RL equipment-, it would see a galaxy in formation.


because Destiny travelled a billion lightyears in FTL, it by definition travelled through time. every time it goes into FTL it travels through time.

Again, just because they are so far away that if they were to look at the MW Galaxy it would still be forming, does not mean they are at the point in time when the MW Galaxy was forming.


any ship going faster than light through whatever means goes back in time.

I know where you're going with this, but I'm afraid you have it backwards.

It's been a while since physics class, but I'll try and get this right. If you had a spaceship capable of going 0.999 c, and you flew from Earth to Alpha Centauri and back, for you the round trip would take a little over 4 months, but on Earth 8 years would have passed. So you would have effectively traveled into the future.

There is no theory that I am aware of about using light speed to travel backwards in time. Sure if you went far enough you could observe light from the past, but you would not have traveled backwards in time to do that.

erotavlas
April 20th, 2011, 06:55 PM
You're incorrect.
Yes when we see the light from something a billion light years away, we are seeing light from a billion years ago. However the object itself is not in the past.
Light years is a measure of distance not time.



Again, just because they are so far away that if they were to look at the MW Galaxy it would still be forming, does not mean they are at the point in time when the MW Galaxy was forming.



I know where you're going with this, but I'm afraid you have it backwards.

It's been a while since physics class, but I'll try and get this right. If you had a spaceship capable of going 0.999 c, and you flew from Earth to Alpha Centauri and back, for you the round trip would take a little over 4 months, but on Earth 8 years would have passed. So you would have effectively traveled into the future.


The points of 'D Toccs' are correct. As you approach the speed of light in normal space, time slows down for you (as observed by someone outside your frame of reference) so when you stop moving more time has passed outside your frame of reference than has passed from within it.

In order to overcome this I guess the concept of hyperspace was developed in order to allow faster than light speed without messing with the effects of relativity. In essence you are no longer travelling through normal space time, but through a shortcut in a higher dimension(s), bypassing normal spacetime altogether.

Since the Destiny uses such a mode of transportation, it bypasses the effects of relativity and time does not slow down for the ship or its crew.


First off hello everyone!!

The Destiny is billions of light years away from earth, closer to the beginnings of the universe right? And the beginning of the universe is where the message/structure is located and that is where the Destiny is headed. Therefore the destiny is billions of years in the past? Can someone clear this up for me?

And if that is the case, then the people of Novus could eventually evolve into the ancients themselves in another temporal paradox. Am I making any sense?

The people of Novus are only about 2000 years more evolved than the Destiny crew and other humans on Earth. They could only evolve into Ancient like beings if they discovered a means to ascend themselves, like intoducing some genetic anomaly which accelerated their evolution throughout that time.