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actuallyliam
April 19th, 2011, 08:08 AM
Wow these are some weak stargates it was shot once. We've seen the Milkyway and Pegasus gates withstand Volcanoes, suns, McKay, being shot, being blown up. etc.

And they take these gates out in one shot, I think the ancients might be buying some fake knock-offs. Seriously are these gates even made of the same material. Maybe sub-par material is why they don't work long distances.

Flibby
April 19th, 2011, 08:29 AM
Considering how many of those things they'd have to have produced to seed the universe, it would make sense that they would make them with a lesser material. (remember the scene in the seed ship where we see a bunch of them?)
Even if they only put a dozen or so in each galaxy along a cosmically straight line through the Universe, that would still be several times more gates than just seeding a whole galaxy.

I believe the MW and Pegasus gates were to to have a naquadah composition, which is what makes them so absurdly robust, nigh indestructible, and great superconductors.
It seems the Universe gates don't have that naquadah composition; the lesser superconductivity explains their shorter range, as you said.

Mister Oragahn
April 19th, 2011, 08:33 AM
Plastic stargates.
Above all, the problem is that there's no guarantee that the ships would have enough naqahdah on board. We don't even know where it really comes from, and perhaps the seed ships stop at some asteroid belts and other planets and grab some metals there, which will make their stargates inferior to those built out of naqahdah and perhaps SF "neutronium".

Mr Evil 37
April 19th, 2011, 08:47 AM
Wow these are some weak stargates it was shot once. We've seen the Milkyway and Pegasus gates withstand Volcanoes, suns, McKay, being shot, being blown up. etc..

You answered your own question here. The Milky Way and Pegasus gates can survive all those things, but the gates in the Destiny network are prototypes; far older than both the Milky Way and Pegasus networks. It makes sense for them to be made out of a weaker material. Plus the Ancients may not have discovered/manufactured naquada by the time the seed ships were launched.

The Destiny
April 19th, 2011, 08:55 AM
The drones weapons also seem to be incredibly powerful focussed energy weapons. They wouldn't blow vast craters in the ground with every hit but their power is focussed in short bursts. The destiny's shields can withstand the pressures, magnetic fields, heat etc. of a star, yet prolonged fire from drones will cause the shields to fail. I don't find it that odd that the direct hit of the drone broke the gate ( which looked pretty cool and it was shocking to see a gate being broken after 17 seasons of stargate ).

Add to this that the seedships will have to use whatever material they can find. Naquadah ( if the Ancients already knew it existed ) would probably be the material seedships prefer to use to make gates, but I can imagine they'd settle for less. After all, how often would you expect people to shoot at a gate with energyweapons that can pierce the hull of a ship with ease ( like the poor Ursini ships, poor buggers.. ). It's like firing anti-tank weaponry at a bike. It doesn't happen that often, no need to put armoured plating on :)

Mr Evil 37
April 19th, 2011, 09:10 AM
Seeing the gate broken is pretty metaphorical, isn't it? Since we just got the news that the Stargate franchise is, for now, dead :(

Flibby
April 19th, 2011, 09:20 AM
The drones weapons also seem to be incredibly powerful focussed energy weapons. They wouldn't blow vast craters in the ground with every hit but their power is focussed in short bursts. The destiny's shields can withstand the pressures, magnetic fields, heat etc. of a star, yet prolonged fire from drones will cause the shields to fail. I don't find it that odd that the direct hit of the drone broke the gate ( which looked pretty cool and it was shocking to see a gate being broken after 17 seasons of stargate ).

Add to this that the seedships will have to use whatever material they can find. Naquadah ( if the Ancients already knew it existed ) would probably be the material seedships prefer to use to make gates, but I can imagine they'd settle for less. After all, how often would you expect people to shoot at a gate with energyweapons that can pierce the hull of a ship with ease ( like the poor Ursini ships, poor buggers.. ). It's like firing anti-tank weaponry at a bike. It doesn't happen that often, no need to put armoured plating on :)


I definitely wouldn't say that the drones' energy weapons are any better than any other we've seen. In fact, I'd say that they're much weaker, given several factors:
The drones are tiny
It takes a huge number of those drones to do real damage to Destiny.
Destiny is the oldest Ancient ship, in fact, the only non-Lantean ship we've ever seen. Star-diving not withstanding, it would presumably have the weakest shields and physical integrity.

Also, don't forget the point they've made a few times about stargates exploding. If the universe gates weren't made of a much weaker, less volatile material, the one that got shot would have ****in' exploded if it got hit by a blast powerful enough to do what it did, not just take out a chunk of it.



Seeing the gate broken is pretty metaphorical, isn't it? Since we just got the news that the Stargate franchise is, for now, dead :(
It's not dead, it's just on an indefinite leave of absence.

Steelbox
April 19th, 2011, 09:53 AM
Obviously they are not entirely made out of Naquadah. Just a little part on its pedestal that generates the wormhole is actually Naquadah or another variant of superconductor. And for the first time it is good to visualize the inner parts of a Stargate.

The Destiny
April 19th, 2011, 10:28 AM
I definitely wouldn't say that the drones' energy weapons are any better than any other we've seen. In fact, I'd say that they're much weaker, given several factors:
The drones are tiny
It takes a huge number of those drones to do real damage to Destiny.
Destiny is the oldest Ancient ship, in fact, the only non-Lantean ship we've ever seen. Star-diving not withstanding, it would presumably have the weakest shields and physical integrity.

Size isn't everything ;) The daedalus class ships are very small too compared to Hive-ships and Ori ships, but they still take them down.

Would you imagine Wraith darts or Goa'uld death gliders would take down Destiny's shields with lesser numbers? The weapons on the drones seem pretty powerful. It took them 1 pass to turn the Ursini ships into scrap metal and only a few moments to destroy the seedship. It took only half of the drones that attacked destiny in Resurgence/Deliverance to destroy 2 out of 3 of the blue aliens' ships, ships against which destiny struggled on their encounter. Destiny's main weapon didn't seem to be doing a lot. The drones blew those ships apart within minutes.

Diving into a star would require immensely strong shields or it'd be squashed by the forces of the star, or torn apart by solar winds etc. It's not like it's a "factor million sunscreen" shield that protects against stars but nothing else :) and I can't imagine more modern ships like ancient or asgard ships to dive into a star or swoop across it without their shields collapsing. The Daedalus struggled in Daedalus variations on a distance of a million miles, however those shields were really weakened. However in "Echoes" in SGA season 3 they had a ZPM and only blocked the mass ejection ( instead of the star compressing on them from all sides ) but barely made it as the hull integrity was compromised and the shield was close to collapsing. From this I can assume the destiny's shields are at least as strong as the asgard shields, yet the drones manage to make the shields collapse very fast.

Greenfire32
April 19th, 2011, 11:58 AM
When you build a gate with the sole purpose of one day dismantling it and replacing it with a more durable model, you don't make it out of the toughest stuff in the universe.

kirmit
April 19th, 2011, 01:07 PM
For anyone that wants a reminder.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/kirmit/brokengate.jpg

Major_Griff
April 19th, 2011, 01:54 PM
I'm willing to buy it since these are supposedly the earliest gates, but it was a hard pill to swallow, especially since these gates are so old and if they were that fragile, would they even still be there. But w/e I'll look the other way.

Mr Evil 37
April 19th, 2011, 01:59 PM
I'm willing to buy it since these are supposedly the earliest gates, but it was a hard pill to swallow, especially since these gates are so old and if they were that fragile, would they even still be there. But w/e I'll look the other way.

Not fragile as in old; fragile because they are prototypes and not built to with stand the kind of stuff the later gates are.

Major_Griff
April 19th, 2011, 02:02 PM
Not fragile as in old; fragile because they are prototypes and not built to with stand the kind of stuff the later gates are.

My point was that if they were that easy to take out would they have lasted for the thousands of years or however far ahead the seed ships are. If that little hit would take it out than any number of things should have destroyed most of these gates in the thousands of years they've been there.

thekillman
April 19th, 2011, 02:02 PM
a gate can absorb insane weaponsfire. but those were MW gates. PG gates seem less durable. Universe gate even less than that. given that the gates have the purpose of exploration, there's no need for high-quality super gates

Mr Evil 37
April 19th, 2011, 02:05 PM
Remember that it was a directed energy blast from a piece of alien technology that took out a small section of the gate; not your average rock slide. I doubt many natural hazards could damage a gate, aside from the huge disasters, obviously, despite them being weaker than MW gates.

greenguywithlasereye
April 19th, 2011, 02:15 PM
for some reason i thought the drone rammed the gate [not just destroying it from firing]. will have to re-watch.

tomaso88
April 19th, 2011, 02:21 PM
Well I was saying the same thing in another thread but now I have just realised that the tollan made there own gate and that was destroyed easy enough by the Goa'uld although we don't see it get destroyed we know the SGC couldn't dial it which means it probably was.

Nth Chevron
April 19th, 2011, 02:39 PM
It could also have something to do with the gate being active at the time, maybe a small overload in a gate segment?

As we saw in 'Awakening' the MK1 gates seemed to be made of segments and not whole chunks of Naquadah.

N.C

Kanten
April 19th, 2011, 03:03 PM
My point was that if they were that easy to take out would they have lasted for the thousands of years or however far ahead the seed ships are. If that little hit would take it out than any number of things should have destroyed most of these gates in the thousands of years they've been there.

Maybe that's the reason why the crew tends to find at most two operating gates within range of the ship at a given time? Wouldn't be misguided to presume that there were a lot more gates out there before.

Also the elements, in most cases, likely pale in comparison to a direct hit from an high-impact energy weapon.

garhkal
April 19th, 2011, 04:43 PM
Wow these are some weak stargates it was shot once. We've seen the Milkyway and Pegasus gates withstand Volcanoes, suns, McKay, being shot, being blown up. etc.

And they take these gates out in one shot, I think the ancients might be buying some fake knock-offs. Seriously are these gates even made of the same material. Maybe sub-par material is why they don't work long distances.

Lets see. the one in 100 days was buried from a near direct hit. The one on the volcano planet melted. Several blew up... So they are not all that..




Seeing the gate broken is pretty metaphorical, isn't it? Since we just got the news that the Stargate franchise is, for now, dead



A subtle irony!


It could also have something to do with the gate being active at the time, maybe a small overload in a gate segment?

That is a good point. WE did see the one in Season 6 SG1 blow up cause of an active gate oveloading it. Same with the one in Lost tribe 2 parter.

qingdom
April 19th, 2011, 06:46 PM
Speaking of the seeder ships, right.... has there ever been a mention that there are still ships seeding the Pegasus and/or Milky Way galaxies?

From my recollection of Baal's solar flare lab, the Milky Way is still ever growing with countless numbers of stars in the outer perimeter. No mention if they had gates or that there were satellites that lit up near them... just the center ones.

JeffKnight
April 19th, 2011, 07:51 PM
I agree with what has been previously stated about the Universe gates. The Ancients obviously intended to follow up on Destiny but never did; and I assume that they built the seeder ships to take into account that they might not have a stream of high-quality materials to deal with, which would mean sacrificing quality in order to ensure that gates could be built and deployed out of what they found. Then there is the fact that the MW may have originally had Universe-type stargates before they got upgraded to version 1.0; just as Pegasus may have started with 1.0 gates when Atlantis arrived, but were later upgraded to the 2.0 model...

Replicator Todd
April 19th, 2011, 09:01 PM
I've always seen this gates in SGU as some type of early prototype. But it was so cool seeing the piece of the gate destroyed!

Never seen that before!

thekillman
April 20th, 2011, 12:20 AM
i was wondering if it had anything to do with naquahdah.

no not that.


naquahdah is the building block of all advanced technology. yet in a ship battle, a hyperdrive always fails first, despite the fact that it has been built to withstand megatons of energy pumped into it.


the same with any advanced piece of tech. energy weapons do miracles, but against something as stupid as a piece of armor or *agh* soil, they're just mild, useless impacts.

could it be that whatever energy present in the plasma bolt -not thermal since it would have to cause nuclear-level explosions- affects naquahdah only?


which isn't as strange as it sounds since Naquahdah by any modern standard can't exist, even if it had a double magic number. the size of the atom would -by quantum physics- simply rip itself apart into protons and neutrons.

so whatever exotic forces present in naquahdah, which also give it it's insane energy density -also not possible by any standard- might be affected by whatever exotic energies are present in the plasma bolt.


a whole slew of technical information later, this is essentially the end result:


Plasma bolt + advanced tech = miracles
plasma bolt + normal tech = useless.

Egle01
April 20th, 2011, 02:22 AM
Seeing the gate broken is pretty metaphorical, isn't it? Since we just got the news that the Stargate franchise is, for now, dead :(Only that unlike seeing the broken gate, news about the end of SG franchise wasn't cool at all. :(

qingdom
April 20th, 2011, 04:50 AM
Not all gates are created with the same material. Back in SG-1, Orlin created a single person stargate using like microwave parts and copper coils in that one episode on Earth where he first meets Sam.

The Ori Supergate was constructed using a different design... like 244 pieces/pods to form a circle, using the same fundamental circular ring design.

Then, there were the Nox who can harness some magic power and just create an event horizon without dialing or the kawoosh... Figuring all they would need is a gate that has stored power and dialing capabilities and instantaneous wormhole without the kawoosh.


Either that or we have some biiiiiiiiig plotholes unanswered. ::still connecting the dots::

Shylodog
April 20th, 2011, 07:22 AM
...
naquahdah is the building block of all advanced technology. yet in a ship battle, a hyperdrive always fails first, despite the fact that it has been built to withstand megatons of energy pumped into it.

...

This part bugged me a little bit. Naquadah is the building block for stargates and Goa'uld technology. Neutronium is the building block for Asgard. They never said that all Ancient tech is based on Naquadah, just the Ancient-built stargates.

SaberBlade
April 20th, 2011, 07:34 AM
naquahdah is the building block of all advanced technology. yet in a ship battle, a hyperdrive always fails first, despite the fact that it has been built to withstand megatons of energy pumped into it..

Not to sound insensitive, but Nuclear Reactors are also designed to withstand and pump out huge amounts of energy and are designed to be as save as possible, but look at Japan after the recent Earthquakes. Stick something that has an equal, if not more power on a ship and start firing at it, no surprise it goes offline or is easily damaged.


Speaking of the seeder ships, right.... has there ever been a mention that there are still ships seeding the Pegasus and/or Milky Way galaxies?


Presumably, if the same Seeder ships seeded Milky Way and Pegasus, they'd be long gone from those galaxies after 50 million years. The Ancients more than likely replaced all First Generation gates with Second Generations when they decided to expand and properly settle in the Milky Way. When they went to Pegasus, created the Third Generation gates and reseeded them. They may have also replaced all First Generation gates in Ida or the Asgard could have done it themselves after meeting the Ancients.

garhkal
April 20th, 2011, 07:59 PM
Plus who's to say someone else was not making more..

Meshakhad
April 21st, 2011, 02:52 PM
I love how you listed McKay as one of the things Stargates have survived.

actuallyliam
April 21st, 2011, 09:48 PM
I love how you listed McKay as one of the things Stargates have survived.

SGA humor is the best.

P.S. I think we can assume that the galaxy Ida, has Gates as-well. Because the Asgard lived there. They're part of the four great races. I though Naquadah was a highly abundant ore. Isn't it on most planets just higher amounts or easily accessible in some. So we would think Asteroids would have even higher still.

Quetzocoetl
April 22nd, 2011, 10:52 AM
Lets see. the one in 100 days was buried from a near direct hit. The one on the volcano planet melted. Several blew up... So they are not all that..



.

Did the one on the volcano planet melt? I was under the assumption that it was just sealed by the cooling lava.
Besides, we've seen Milky Way Stargates survive 2 planet destroying explosions, one via a chain reaction on a naquadah rich planet, and one via a naquadah enhanced warhead that was potent enough to engulf the entire planet in flames. The only time any gate exploded was when it was overloaded, never when it was hit by an external force.

spaceship
April 22nd, 2011, 01:42 PM
Space gates must go through some awful ****. Getting hit by meteors and constantly being bombarded by cosmic radiation. So yeah they are pretty tough.

SaberBlade
April 22nd, 2011, 03:59 PM
SGA humor is the best.

P.S. I think we can assume that the galaxy Ida, has Gates as-well. Because the Asgard lived there. They're part of the four great races. I though Naquadah was a highly abundant ore. Isn't it on most planets just higher amounts or easily accessible in some. So we would think Asteroids would have even higher still.

Ida does have gates, as when Jack first went there he came through a "second generation" (SG1) gate. At the time, they wouldn't have been thinking about new design for the gates so it makes sense they'd just reuse the prop used for offworld locations. From within the context of the show, there was about 47 million years (give or take) between the creation of Milky Way gates and Pegasus Gates (third generation) so it would make sense that they'd use the Milky Way gates in other galaxies.

Nth Chevron
April 22nd, 2011, 04:31 PM
In all fairness, we dont know that Ida had been seeded with MK2 gates, the Ancients could have just gifted the Asgard with one after they made contact and joined the Great Alliance

N.C

garhkal
April 23rd, 2011, 12:04 AM
Did the one on the volcano planet melt? I was under the assumption that it was just sealed by the cooling lava.
Besides, we've seen Milky Way Stargates survive 2 planet destroying explosions, one via a chain reaction on a naquadah rich planet, and one via a naquadah enhanced warhead that was potent enough to engulf the entire planet in flames. The only time any gate exploded was when it was overloaded, never when it was hit by an external force.

Which eps were those? If the 2nd was beachhead.. remember that was also protected by the Prior/ori.

Nth Chevron
April 23rd, 2011, 08:26 PM
No he means SGA 2x19 Inferno.

The gate was active for maybe 5 seconds after it got swallowed, allowing some to impact the Atlantis shield before the wormhole disconnected and subsequent redials failed, implying the gate was consumed.

N.C

Rylor
April 24th, 2011, 03:25 AM
No he means SGA 2x19 Inferno.

The gate was active for maybe 5 seconds after it got swallowed, allowing some to impact the Atlantis shield before the wormhole disconnected and subsequent redials failed, implying the gate was consumed.

N.C

Or, at the very least, that the lava was dense enough to effectively bury the gate.

garhkal
April 24th, 2011, 02:54 PM
I'm thinking it was melted.

tinerin
April 24th, 2011, 03:37 PM
Lava isn't even really that hot though (most active volcanos on Earth are around 750-950 Celsius). Even us humans now have the ability to build things that could withstand those temperatures; it is just very expensive and has very few practical purposes. A space shuttle has to endure higher temperatures during atmospheric reentry (around 1600 Celsius).

Duneknight
April 24th, 2011, 03:48 PM
considering how geography changes drastically over the centuries, its kinda dumb to use weak gates like these.

Nth Chevron
April 25th, 2011, 12:09 PM
How so?

Considering there was no crew for the majority of Destiny's life, why would she need the gates?

N.C

Steelbox
April 25th, 2011, 01:17 PM
No he means SGA 2x19 Inferno.

The gate was active for maybe 5 seconds after it got swallowed, allowing some to impact the Atlantis shield before the wormhole disconnected and subsequent redials failed, implying the gate was consumed.

N.C
No just blocking any connection attempts. It was inside a Sun and wasn't consumed.

Nth Chevron
April 25th, 2011, 01:26 PM
No just blocking any connection attempts. It was inside a Sun and wasn't consumed.

Huh?

N.C

Steelbox
April 25th, 2011, 01:30 PM
Did you noticed the quote i did? Because my post makes perfect sense... at least to me. :P
Rylor said it to.

garhkal
April 25th, 2011, 04:12 PM
Lava isn't even really that hot though (most active volcanos on Earth are around 750-950 Celsius). Even us humans now have the ability to build things that could withstand those temperatures; it is just very expensive and has very few practical purposes. A space shuttle has to endure higher temperatures during atmospheric reentry (around 1600 Celsius).

Never knew that.

Nth Chevron
April 25th, 2011, 05:00 PM
Well the MK2 gates were made of Naquadah, and we see in SG1 season 7 that they use magma flows to refine the Naquadah into ship building grade.

So would say Naquadah becomes softer if not molten at that temp.

N.C

tinerin
April 25th, 2011, 05:19 PM
It's possible that naturally occuring naquadah is similar to uranium, where the raw ore that you mine can be less than 1% of the actual element. Melting away the impurities could just be part of the process of refining the raw naquadah ore into weapons grade naquadah? It might not necessarily be the only way to refine naquadah but it could get the job done without having to give your slaves access to advanced technology.

garhkal
April 26th, 2011, 04:43 PM
Well the MK2 gates were made of Naquadah, and we see in SG1 season 7 that they use magma flows to refine the Naquadah into ship building grade.

N.C

Which ep?? I don't remember seeing any lava flows?