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GateWorld
April 18th, 2011, 07:55 AM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/sanctuary/s3/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/into-the-black-160x120.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">SANCTUARY SEASON THREE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/sanctuary/s3/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">INTO THE BLACK</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 320</FONT>
<DIV STYLE="margin-top:10px; padding:0;">The Sanctuary receives alarming news that a large group of Abnormals has been spotted at the entrance to a cave in South Dakota. Magnus knows immediately that this is the first wave of Abnormals surfacing from Hollow Earth. <I>(SPACE)</I></DIV>
<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/sanctuary/s3/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

ann_sgcfan
June 20th, 2011, 08:29 PM
It was a good episode. I was hoping John would mention his JTR alter ego and that was part of the reason he wanted to go back and clean up his past, but alas no mention of it. I’m hoping Garris is not part of the global domination plan. Hopefully he was able to protect Kate. It will be interesting to see what happens in s4…. Hopefully they allow Helen to play around in the 1800s for a couple of episodes before they hit the reset button.

suse
June 20th, 2011, 08:58 PM
Oh, that last image was wonderful. I cannot wait til October! :D

There were a few things I didn't like.
- I didn't buy Helen dismissing John like that. I'm assuming last week was the setup for that, but after that look in Haunted I'm not sure I buy it. I can totally believe John wanting to stop the source blood injection. I can see Helen's point too.
- I thought the fight was stupid. Will actually thought he would be able to take on that guy? Really??? Then again, he didn't have much choice, running didn't work :P

Thoughts:
-Thousands of abnormals coming out of Hollow Earth. Bet they had no idea Worth was just using them and they will cease to exist if he manages to change time.
-Liked the new immigrants accepting stuff from Biggie and not Kate. And him telling her growing horns would help. LOL
-The scene with Kate and the Stone Guy was sweet.
-The look Helen gave John when she took his arm to access Hollow Earth was hilarious.
-Me no likey Henry with the fuller beard.

More later, it's too late tonight. :)

Rocky89
June 20th, 2011, 09:07 PM
http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae118/Rocky89_05/Helen_claps-5.gif Not that was a whopping ending, I thought last season was big, but, damn, this took it to a whole new level. ;)

This was a great episode, very well done in terms of story, acting, directing and effects. It's episodes like this that really make you see how vital the Sanctuary network is, and how the military needs to handle the abnormals the way they see fit. ;) It was good to see Fallen again, and I believe she was actually trying to help the team. I loved the Helen and John scenes, Amanda and Chris both put very good emotions into them, and I loved that Helen gave John a verbal smackdown. ;) I can't believe that John would allow Adam to live after what he's done, but John's heart was in the right place, it was for Helen. :) I can't believe Helen said "... bed me in another lifetime." :p I always enjoy seeing them team up together because they bring something special to the screen, and that one scene when John found Gregory's walking stick, and how he wanted to comfort Helen, but she didn't let him, that was a touching moment, and you could tell John wanted to help her. I liked hearing them bicker back and forth, and I liked how John didn't want to leave Helen alone in that cave. :)

The B story was also cool, and I'm glad we saw Tom McBeath in a military role, he does that well. It was nice to see Kate trying to make an effort to help the abnormals from Hollow Earth, and I hope that guy she was talking to, and gave her that stone, doesn't come back to hurt her. I actually laughed a little at Will trying to fight that wrestling dude, and I was glad to finally see someone else get whumped than poor Helen all the time. :( :p I thought it was very "Will" of Will to figure out that it was a diversion for that army of abnormals, and seeing them all on the screen... that can't be good. :p Oh, and I wished we could have seen Biggie and that wrestling dude fight more. ;) Just one thing, when they took hostages, we saw Biggie and some other dude, where was Kate?

The final scene with Helen, John and Adam was amazing, and even after Adam ran through the gateway, I didn't expect Helen to go after him. I thought it was brave of John to use the creature inside him to build up more power. :) The explosion, and seeing the abnormals on the screen with Will and Henry looking at them, and the end with Helen back time was just an amazing way to end the season, and it really makes you wonder how the hell they'll get out of it. ;) Looks like it's up to Helen to save the day. :D

Overall, an excellent episode, and it was a fitting end to a great season. :)

BRING ON SEASON 4!!! ;)

Rocky89
June 20th, 2011, 09:21 PM
Oh, that last image was wonderful. I cannot wait til October! :D

There were a few things I didn't like.
- I didn't buy Helen dismissing John like that. I'm assuming last week was the setup for that, but after that look in Haunted I'm not sure I buy it. I can totally believe John wanting to stop the source blood injection. I can see Helen's point too.
- I thought the fight was stupid. Will actually thought he would be able to take on that guy? Really??? Then again, he didn't have much choice, running didn't work :P

Thoughts:
-Thousands of abnormals coming out of Hollow Earth. Bet they had no idea Worth was just using them and they will cease to exist if he manages to change time.
-Liked the new immigrants accepting stuff from Biggie and not Kate. And him telling her growing horns would help. LOL
-The scene with Kate and the Stone Guy was sweet.
-The look Helen gave John when she took his arm to access Hollow Earth was hilarious.
-Me no likey Henry with the fuller beard.

More later, it's too late tonight. :)


Good points. ;) I also thought a little about OOTB when Helen was dismissing John, and I saw a little hurt in his eyes when she said they couldn't be together. I would like to see them together. :) John's heart may have been in the right place, but like Helen said, billions of lives would have been altered, and without Helen and the team to clean so much mess throught the years, the would could have been a worse place. I thought the Will fight was kinda funny, cause we knew he'd never win, and he actually thought he could. :p

I also laughed at Helen's look to John before going to Hollow Earth, and I don't like Henry with a beard like that either, it needs to go fast. :p

SamJackShipper93
June 20th, 2011, 10:05 PM
*sigh* This episode just took my little shippy heart, threw it on the ground and smashed it into a million tiny pieces. :( :( :(

But still, I'm intrigued to see what's going to happen to Magnus in the past, and what happened to John . . . period. :)

Bring on Season 4! :)

ann_sgcfan
June 20th, 2011, 10:15 PM
While I’m not a huge J/H shipper … I wish they could have added another dramatic scene between Helen and John. John has clearly wondered what his life would have been like had they never experimented with the source blood. I sooooo wanted him to further explain all the nightmares he has to live with due to the creature that birthed the JtR alter ego, but sadly he didn’t. I think if they could have had that discussion, she would have softened on her resolve & understood why he allowed Adam to live. Over the last century she has been making headway in the medical and scientific field while he, with the creature in control, has seen far too many deaths.

While I know Adam planned to go back in time after they injected the Source Blood. I would love to see them go back to a time before the SB was injected. Only to see Helen struggle with a decision of injecting John with the SB knowing all that he will see and become because of it. It would be fun to see that inner turmoil for Helen and especially if she could see John’s innocence again. To remember the man she fell in love with ... would she still make the same choices?

tomstone
June 21st, 2011, 12:40 AM
I loved the Episode. It was everything I was hoping for after this Season, after all this is the one that made me interrested in Sanctuary in the first place.

Hearing Helen talk about all that technical stuff made my heart go faster, I just miss hearing her talk about all that science stuff.

I love Henry with his beard, it goes well with his Werewolf character. Also I think he looks really hot with it.

Chelle DB
June 21st, 2011, 03:50 AM
Oh wow...that was amazing...blew me away yet again!
Was slightly bored with the abnormals from Praxis...actually, really bored with the big fella with the tatts...impress me he did not...but loved Kate and the little guy...so cute!! :)
I love how John still carries a torch for Helen...he really wants to make it better and have the life he dreamed of with her...that's just so...awwww. And the look on Helen's face when he revealed that...it was like yes, she wants it too but no way will she allow herself to be hurt again like she had in the past. I hope that deep down she still carries her own torch for John.
Was surprised that Helen went through the rift...am wondering if she & Adam will be subjected to the radiation again?
Am still amazed that the real world still doubt Helen & the Sanctuary to be able to handle things...why they need to bring out the big guns and take over....oh wait...kinda like real life isn't it....silly me. :P
I want Adam Worth dealt with once and for all...I want John to be ok, I want Helen to kick more butt, I want Kate and the Praxis fella to make jewellery together :P, I want to see Tesla again, I want more!!!!!!!
So when does season 4 start?? :P
Brilliant episode...I just can't understand how they haven't picked up more awards...this show has proven itself time and time again...barring a couple of dud eps in the beginning of season 3.5. :)

Skydiver
June 21st, 2011, 04:26 AM
I do think the Edge stuff was forced....well, I'm pretty sure it was. I'm sure having the wrestler guest was a 'request' from skiffy, and so they needed a plot that he fit into. Wasn't horrible, but also seemed kinda scattered. If they had an inkling that the abbys were restless, why leave them to meet and run free? why not separate them? why weren't they on the sanctuary grounds to begin with? why bring them into the middle of a city when they could have set up the tent city closer to the 'middle of nowhere' they emerged from?

Yes, will trying to fight the abby?????

In one way Helen's dismissal was expected, she likely still remembers her dreams from the tank, in another way...it is not wise to tell someone like JOhn 'by the way, once we're done with this mission you can frak off cause i'm through with you'. You don't tip off the psychopath.

of course, I do think it was set up for her 1800 adventures....namely the likelyhood of her running into John's past self (he and she and the rest exist in the past)

I do think we'll start out s4 with a dramatic change of the future....adam's presence will have changed a few things, then magnus will have to rechange them...and she'll be the only one to remember what she changed.

With the Lotus Defense guys....there seems to be something else going on. Because all of a sudden Magnus' strangle hold on abnormals is gone? after a century all of a sudden she's no longer the boss? Makes me wonder if Adam changed a few things already.

Anyone other than me kinda intrigued by them maybe resetting the 'long standing relationships' that got the sanctuary folks almost carte blanche to do anything into them being more secretive and having to 'hide' from all sides?

that or it may change to a world like Henry suggested....abnormals being part of the world for years and living openly instead of hiding.

lots of potential for s4.

Julian
June 21st, 2011, 05:24 AM
^I felt like there was lots of potential for S3 with the 20 ep order, but really I still feel that since Pax Romana this season has fallen flat, and this episode proves it.

It wasn't a bad episode, but I think it lacked action and some level of believability. I was also thoroughly disappointed that Praxis was destroyed without them even having the chance to explore it.

Spimman
June 21st, 2011, 06:40 AM
Anyone other than me kinda intrigued by them maybe resetting the 'long standing relationships' that got the sanctuary folks almost carte blanche to do anything into them being more secretive and having to 'hide' from all sides?

that or it may change to a world like Henry suggested....abnormals being part of the world for years and living openly instead of hiding.

lots of potential for s4.

If hollow earth had come above a hundred years ago and tried to blend their society with human society it might have worked, but with Praxia gone it seems unlikely to really work.

Wonder what the abnormal population (sentient) is in Hollow Earth?

Galileo_Galilee
June 21st, 2011, 09:08 AM
You know, I hope this has larger ramifications and they just don't resolve things up and forget it.

Having thousands of monsters come up from out of the blue is going to have a huge effect on humanity.

I'd like to see that explored, but I don't think it would.

It looks like those people who kidnapped Helen's daughter did actually foresee this thing happening.

llp
June 21st, 2011, 10:17 AM
Some opinions on E20 - first of all, that' all, I wanted another hour or so....loved the episode and wished it lasted longer. Leaves it open for so much in S4.

First, Helen is still pissed at John, what else is new. The love/hate relationship is larger than life and I love it. Does she mean she never wants to see him again....no, well yes, but no! Remember, when she comes back, and she will, then life will be different in little ways. And, she will be the only one to remember how it was. Now that would be weird. She could have a toned down John. And, she still has to find a way back people....have you thought about that! The device was basically a one way trip. There isn't one on the othe side and only one person really knows how to build it. Plus all the power it needs! Offers up a lot of possibilities. Plus a big desire to see S4.

Kate and the jewelry maker..... well, we haven't seen Kate for awhile. Maybe he is hiding her to protect her. He does have a crush. So we will have to wait and see. They gave us no clues except that she was no where to be seen. They had 2 soldiers and the big guy.

The destruction of the city - remember, if Helen somehow manages to change the time line, the city would be saved as well as her father and everyone else. No need to come up to the surface, no need for the UN and a very confused staff wondering what is going on!

Anyone remember the end of S10 of SG1....only one person knows the truth (and all the viewers of course)! If they play it right, this could go on for 2 episodes into S4. But remember, they only have 13 episodes this season.

As for poor John. If Helen changes the time line, then he wouldn't have changed putting their status back to what it was before he pulled in all that electricity. Does she want to not see him again....I think she will see him back in time and see the sweet sides of him again and fall in love again....not that she ever completely fell out of love with him. Good, bad or indifferent - you never forget your first real love!

kes
June 21st, 2011, 10:39 AM
I loved it!
Sure I can nitpick the hell out of it starting with the fact that they didnt just time travel they also moved geographically (sp):S ...but this was exactly what I wanted. Except maybe Magnus saying she never wanted to see Druitt again. I like Druitt and even with the whole dream thing she did sleep in his arms quite recently!
But I sort of understand, his reasons were selfish. If he really loves her, he wouldn't want to erase who she is now.
I loved all the scenes between them thou. :D Well except after the shock thing, she barely looks at him. Not even "Are you alright?"
I hope they dont just solve this in the 1st ep and I hope we have some Magnus/Magnus scenes. If they pull a: "Oh she's out of town" I'll be pissed!

Also Magnus took info from Worth laptop. So Tesla probably as everything he needs to go get her.

I didnt mind the wrestler, he was alright. VFX were crap on the big troll like creature. Hell the dude with the water and AD werent even looking at him *sigh*
Loved Will runing away. And after getting his butt handed to him saying something like: "I have him" LOL Yeh, right.

Need to watch it another million times...is it Set/Out yet? At least Comic Con is coming up. Hope we get some sweet spoilers out of that.


EDIT: Oh sort of a side note. I wished it was 16 instead of 13. Enough room to explore certain topics and still have stand alones. Afraid with 13 they are just going to close this story line in 1 ep and do stand alones till near the end. This season would have been amazing without One Night and Wingman.

Egle01
June 21st, 2011, 11:46 AM
I loved it!
Sure I can nitpick the hell out of it starting with the fact that they didnt just time travel they also moved geographically (sp):S
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/Egle01/Varia/timetravelimpossible.jpg

:P

To my own surprise, I really loved this episode! Haven't been very thrilled with season 3 in general, but now I can't wait for S4.

prsweety
June 21st, 2011, 02:05 PM
Wow...i could not have said it better myself... I felt the same way....Great Ep....but going from laying in his arms, him helping them get to hollow earth, to then saying what she did....to me, i think she was trying to convince herself otherwise....NOT HELPING.....those two have so much story possibilities....she and John are not through at all.... :)




I loved it!
Sure I can nitpick the hell out of it starting with the fact that they didnt just time travel they also moved geographically (sp):S ...but this was exactly what I wanted. Except maybe Magnus saying she never wanted to see Druitt again. I like Druitt and even with the whole dream thing she did sleep in his arms quite recently!
But I sort of understand, his reasons were selfish. If he really loves her, he wouldn't want to erase who she is now.
I loved all the scenes between them thou. :D Well except after the shock thing, she barely looks at him. Not even "Are you alright?"
I hope they dont just solve this in the 1st ep and I hope we have some Magnus/Magnus scenes. If they pull a: "Oh she's out of town" I'll be pissed!

Also Magnus took info from Worth laptop. So Tesla probably as everything he needs to go get her.

I didnt mind the wrestler, he was alright. VFX were crap on the big troll like creature. Hell the dude with the water and AD werent even looking at him *sigh*
Loved Will runing away. And after getting his butt handed to him saying something like: "I have him" LOL Yeh, right.

Need to watch it another million times...is it Set/Out yet? At least Comic Con is coming up. Hope we get some sweet spoilers out of that.


EDIT: Oh sort of a side note. I wished it was 16 instead of 13. Enough room to explore certain topics and still have stand alones. Afraid with 13 they are just going to close this story line in 1 ep and do stand alones till near the end. This season would have been amazing without One Night and Wingman.

kes
June 21st, 2011, 02:18 PM
I love his reaction to her: "in order to bed me in some other timeline" is priceless. Its sort of like a "well no, yes...ah. Frak" all in one look :D

Dutchess
June 21st, 2011, 02:49 PM
GREAT episode!!! The last few episodes truly took the show to another level of excitement. Could you imagine the ramifications of all those abnormals surfacing from hollow earth? I could just imagine how season 4 would be. Let's see. In the future I invision:
1. There can be a real war between the surface dwellers and those from Hollow Earth. It would be PERFECT if the humans on earth don't learn about abnormals because I tend to lose interest in shows when big secrets like that is disclosed. A war between abnormals would be awesome!!!
2. Helen might rewrite history and Adam may never exist and the whole Hollow- Earth- being- destroyed- and- the- residence- threatening- the- surface- may- never- happen. Sanctuary has a knack for just letting great storylines die like that.
I really hope they go through with the great ending of season 3. Oh! and I hope they show more of Helen and John! I LOVED THAT!!! I want Helen to really chose for good- keep John around or dismiss him for good. I hope it's the former. I can't wait for season 4!!!!!!!

majorsal
June 21st, 2011, 03:14 PM
i'm going to reply without reading other's thoughts first.


randomness...


i *loved* the look on helen's face when she took john's arm in the elevator!! :p

i felt sorry for wil when he was running away from wrestler dude. :p (((wil)))

loved seeing biggie to the rescue!! :)

a friend said about the cliff hanger and the wow'ness of it, and... i was thinking it was going to be that we'd see ashley. :/ :p

why is helen so almost anti john suddenly? i know why she's ticked, but it just seems so sudden that she's *this* ticked. it's like it's a hold-over from her john anger from the previous ep.

i wasn't too thrilled with the abnormals being all demandy and such (i was saying, 'you don't like it here, go back home then!), but the end revealed it was just part of their plan.

HUGE ramifications on what's going to happen to the abnormals and the sanctuary network, with thousands of abnormals surfacing now. (got some stargate program vibes too :p)

now, the end... oh noooo... :p so helen's back in victorian england... this is going to be VERY interesting!! :p


all in all, a good ep, and set up some *big* things to happen for/in season 4! :D

majorsal
June 21st, 2011, 03:17 PM
It was a good episode. I was hoping John would mention his JTR alter ego and that was part of the reason he wanted to go back and clean up his past, but alas no mention of it. I’m hoping Garris is not part of the global domination plan. Hopefully he was able to protect Kate. It will be interesting to see what happens in s4…. Hopefully they allow Helen to play around in the 1800s for a couple of episodes before they hit the reset button.

i'd have preferred john's number one motivation for wanting to go back in time, was to bring about a way of getting ashley back. i'm also thinking that wouldn't have ticked helen off so much.

i have more ideas on what's happening with helen and john, but it's about season 4 and spoilers, so i'll just comment in the other thread.

majorsal
June 21st, 2011, 03:22 PM
The B story was also cool, and I'm glad we saw Tom McBeath in a military role, he does that well.

it was lovely to see tom (maybourne)!! :D

~i keep picking actors to play helen's dad, so i've added him to the list. number one on the list is the guy that played bra'tac.~

majorsal
June 21st, 2011, 03:24 PM
*sigh* This episode just took my little shippy heart, threw it on the ground and smashed it into a million tiny pieces. :( :( :(



don't take helen's words to john to heart! she's just overwhelmed, and don't forget the loving things she's said to him before. *hugs a shipper*

majorsal
June 21st, 2011, 03:26 PM
I love Henry with his beard, it goes well with his Werewolf character. Also I think he looks really hot with it.

i like hairy guys too. :p

majorsal
June 21st, 2011, 03:28 PM
Was surprised that Helen went through the rift...am wondering if she & Adam will be subjected to the radiation again?


that crossed my mind too. :S :p

majorsal
June 21st, 2011, 03:32 PM
If hollow earth had come above a hundred years ago and tried to blend their society with human society it might have worked, but with Praxia gone it seems unlikely to really work.

Wonder what the abnormal population (sentient) is in Hollow Earth?

if nothing is reset, just how and where will these abnormals be? could we actually just give them a state (and not one of the desert ones, that no one wants :p)

majorsal
June 21st, 2011, 03:33 PM
You know, I hope this has larger ramifications and they just don't resolve things up and forget it.

Having thousands of monsters come up from out of the blue is going to have a huge effect on humanity.

I'd like to see that explored, but I don't think it would.

It looks like those people who kidnapped Helen's daughter did actually foresee this thing happening.

what do you mean?

majorsal
June 21st, 2011, 03:36 PM
And, she still has to find a way back people....have you thought about that! The device was basically a one way trip. There isn't one on the othe side and only one person really knows how to build it. Plus all the power it needs! Offers up a lot of possibilities. Plus a big desire to see S4.



woah, i didn't think about that. poor helen!! :eek: :p

majorsal
June 21st, 2011, 03:43 PM
Wow...i could not have said it better myself... I felt the same way....Great Ep....but going from laying in his arms, him helping them get to hollow earth, to then saying what she did....to me, i think she was trying to convince herself otherwise....NOT HELPING.....those two have so much story possibilities....she and John are not through at all.... :)

you know, i'm not a shipper of them (not anti though), but i just felt this was too sudden a shift for helen to be this angry and against him, so...

spoilers for s4-
i'm thinking this is a set up for helen to have a lover in s4. i think they wanted to show the viewers that helen wants and needs to be with someone else, so they're giving us the reasons now...

and this reminds me of the sam/jack stuff that happened with the sudden appearance and 'need' for a boyfriend for sam in s7, and the crappy reasons for that happening too. first it was love, love, need, want, then doubts, wants for a life... SET UP for reasoning sam's boyfriend.

this just might be the same thing happening with helen and a helen/other relationship coming up in s4.

Dutchess
June 21st, 2011, 04:10 PM
what do you mean?
I thought about this too. The Kabal was afraid of abnormals taking over. (Just playing devil's advocate;)) maybe if the Kabal succeeded, they would have had this under control? Hm....:D:confused::rolleyes:

majorsal
June 21st, 2011, 04:54 PM
what did john say to helen, just after the electricity stopped and just before helen went through the time thingie?

Kilgharrah
June 21st, 2011, 05:11 PM
Let's say, this is not what I was waiting for. A boring episode. Little action and even less thrill. After all these awesome episode we end up with this crappy end??!!!! This season was the best, but now this finale ruined it. 'Kali' was a much better finale.

The only part I liked was the ending. Helen in the past. I love those past stuff and victorian England. Awesome stuff about the invasion. The only problem is that if they managed to make the world live with abnormals, then there'll be no use for the sanctuary.

Good to see Edge. Looks like he's gonna go into acting now that he's not a wrestler anymore. His performance was so good for an unexperienced actor. His character was cool.

Felt sorry for Fallon. She had potential. How many cat eyed persons are there???!!!!

Didn't like the scenes of Kate and that guy.

Since I hate Will, I liked the scene when he was fighting Edge.

FINALLY Adam did it. I was getting annoyed with his losses. He was killing people AND failing. It's not like he was succeeding. Now that he succeeded, he'll stop these crazy experiments.

If the world accept the abnormals, then there'll be no use for the sanctuary except for dangerous abnormals. I think time travel will make new uses for the sanctuary.

IMO, this would have been better if it was a two part episode. One would be dealing with the hostages and Kate and Biggie overhearing about the invasion and not being able to tell the others and when finally escaping it's too late coz the invasion began. The second would be at the same time as the first, but showing Druitt, Helen and Worth and the timee travel stuff in addition to Will and Henry finding out about the invasion in time without Kate and Biggie's help and telling Dr. Lee and it end with the same ending scene. Of course that's whisful thinking. What is done is done.

Still, the ending was awesome, I admit it. Can't wait for season 4. Just 3 months.

One Question: How exactly did Druitt betray Helen? I didn't understand that part.

Skydiver
June 21st, 2011, 06:37 PM
I too had thoughts about the cabal and how they may be behind it all...since they had the 'abnormals must be caged' attitude, same as gen villanova.

i'm thinking whomever this power is that's put Lotus in place, they're backed by the cabal

the fifth man
June 21st, 2011, 06:42 PM
This was a pretty good season finale. After that ending, it should be very interesting to see what happens next. This goes for Helen in the past, and for everyone else in the present.

meredithchandler73
June 21st, 2011, 08:59 PM
I didn't take any notes while watching the episode earlier today, so initial impressions:

--LOVE THIS EPISODE! I'm sure there are things to nitpick, but for now all I can think about are the awesome things - mainly John and Helen.
--The Helen/John interaction was so fabulous. It is interesting to see that Helen was so absolutely sure she and John didn't belong together in the dreamworld in Out of the Blue and then to see how resolutely she rebuffs him here. Granted, John's intentions here were truly amazing: he wanted to rewrite history so that they could have been together. Of course, Helen could see the wide-reaching ramifications of that and wouldn't be a party to that. I seriously jumped out of my seat when she said the line about John erasing the last 100 years to bed her in some alternate timeline. Wow!!! It's such a crazy, romantic notion to change history/change the world for love. And yet, Helen's point of view was such an interesting one: he must not think much of the present day Helen Magnus to want to go back and undo everything.
--I've been wondering what is going on with John, his blood lust and the energy being. He took back the energy creature in Haunted (season 2). We don't see John again until For King & Country where he has been drugging himself or something (I think he called it "'local fare to cure the soul") in Cambodia trying to keep from feeling anything. Helen brings him back to the Sanctuary and it seems like John is in control of himself. In all the following episodes we don't see him out of control and murdering people. It is only at the end of Pax Romana that you think maybe the Ripper has returned (John covered with blood, about to exact revenge on Adam), but those actions might not have been influenced by the energy being either. Has John somehow tamed the energy being? Was something he did/tried in Cambodia keeping the energy being from influencing his actions? Has the energy being fallen in love with Helen, too?!?!? (Why not? Who doesn't love Helen?)
--The shippers out there may hate me, but I honestly do think Helen doesn't believe she and John belong together. She loved him - there is no doubt about that. But after everything that has happened, I don't think she can see them together. As for that moment in For King & Country when she lay down and put his arm around her - I don't think that was about wanting to be together in the present. I think she was vulnerable at that moment and wanted comfort. And she had this opportunity to lie in his arms, remembering how much she loved him once - and there would be no ramifications here because he was unconscious and would never know. However, even believing Helen doesn't think they are meant to be together, Helen's comment about never wanting to see John again may have just been said in the heat of the moment.
--Love how John offered Helen his arm in the elevator and her look as she took it. Priceless!
--I have to believe that Garris (the abnormal that Kate became friends with) is helping/hiding Kate in the abnormal camp. Had a fleeting thought about a sort of Die Hard situation - with Kate trying to beat the bad guys while (practically) alone.

I CAN'T WAIT FOR SEASON 4 AND TO SEE HOW THEY GET OUT OF THIS!!! Also, super excited about Helen in Victorian England. So many possibilities!!!

dee
June 21st, 2011, 11:58 PM
In comes Tesla and Henry. Tesla and Henry will most likely make a device from the information that Helen sent John back with. If Helen really dosent want to see John again this could be a way of getting Chris out of the series? please tell me Im wrong people. People do dumb things when it comes to love and John's just human. Beard or no beard for Henry, hmm, how about lamb chops? And why did the armed guards saved Will and just leave Biggy there like that? that was just wrong on all levels, they could have taken him to even if he wanted to stay and pound that guy into the ground. The military has another agenda for the abnormals that their not letting Helen know about and its not good.

Demoniser
June 22nd, 2011, 03:00 AM
Funky episode.

- Maybourne!
- Praxis :o surely this can't be permanent? I bet it gets reset, although it would be interesting if it didn't
- Druitt does have some good left in him, definitely the Darth Vader character.
- New abnormals, you know that giant/troll looking one was introduced because it would look good in a fight.
- Interesting cliffhanger, time travel, invasion.

The season has been pretty decent overall, although i don't think it has been spectacular. Will have to tune in to season 4.

kes
June 22nd, 2011, 03:22 AM
you know, i'm not a shipper of them (not anti though), but i just felt this was too sudden a shift for helen to be this angry and against him, so...

spoilers for s4-
i'm thinking this is a set up for helen to have a lover in s4. i think they wanted to show the viewers that helen wants and needs to be with someone else, so they're giving us the reasons now...

and this reminds me of the sam/jack stuff that happened with the sudden appearance and 'need' for a boyfriend for sam in s7, and the crappy reasons for that happening too. first it was love, love, need, want, then doubts, wants for a life... SET UP for reasoning sam's boyfriend.

this just might be the same thing happening with helen and a helen/other relationship coming up in s4. I dont think so, because AT asked for some romance when they were preping S04. They had already finished S03. And I'm also thinking its just some dude and it will be 1 ep and done with it.




One Question: How exactly did Druitt betray Helen? I didn't understand that part. Well he let Adam live and go free again. And wrote a msg giving the idea he had taken care of it. Giving back the CI but after Adam copied it. And that stuff he's pretty dangerous. Not to mention he would risk millions of lives and erase who she is today for his own personal gain.
---------------
Druitt follows what Adam told him. That he's a dog on a leash for Magnus. But he really can't complain. He let Adam go with 1900 something, took him out of the Sanctuary and then let him loose (sp) again.

Skydiver
June 22nd, 2011, 04:10 AM
a note i found while transcribing....druitt let adam live the first time. they had some sort of 'arrangement/bargain/deal'.
then he does the second time and then is confronted with the chaos he helped create.

druitt has been adam's patsy for years...adam outsmarted jack the ripper :)'

now magnus has gone back to stop him, and may be trapped in the past, and she's going to have to deal with stopping/killing a man based on his future crimes, what she knows he'll do...and do this in the face of a timeline he's trying to change.

kes
June 22nd, 2011, 06:45 AM
a note i found while transcribing....druitt let adam live the first time. they had some sort of 'arrangement/bargain/deal'.
then he does the second time and then is confronted with the chaos he helped create.

druitt has been adam's patsy for years...adam outsmarted jack the ripper :)'

now magnus has gone back to stop him, and may be trapped in the past, and she's going to have to deal with stopping/killing a man based on his future crimes, what she knows he'll do...and do this in the face of a timeline he's trying to change.
The 1st time I understand. What Adam said was true so it worked for Druitt. He was almost dead, how was he suppose to know that he'd end up in Hollow Earth. But he totaly fell for it when he took him to Hollow Earth and then again when he let him live. What I find strange is the 3rd time. Why would he believe Adam would go back to when he wanted? And would take him along?
----------
It would be cool if they explore the fact that Magnus must kill future Adam. If she meets the others, and I'm guessing yes, how will they see that? Plus in doing so she's also sacraficing (sp) his daughter. I hope they play with that.
It would be cool if the lab fire that Watson metions in FKaC was started Magnus.

Galileo_Galilee
June 22nd, 2011, 09:12 AM
Plus Druitt is Jack The Ripper thanks to that parasite in him. Which he has now unleashed again on the world.

Huaracocha
June 22nd, 2011, 06:39 PM
Great episode nice to see Sanctuary back on track after a couple of slow episodes. Shame we have to wait so long for the next one now :|

I'm not sure we need to worry too much about how they deal with the fallout from abnormal invasion, Worth's destruction of Praxis etc. None of that will necessarily happen now as he and Helen have entered a different timeline. So many interesting possibilities..

Will Helen run into herself? Into 2 versions of Worth and kill them both? (depending on how they interpret time travel for the show I guess). Will she run into John and help him get control of the monster earlier in his life? Warn Dr Watson or Nigel about possible impending dooms?

Really anything is possible now although the suspicion is they'll come up with a reset switch of some kind to take us back to just before Alan set off his time field in 'our' timeline and prevent it. One plausible such scenario would be for Helen to kill Worth and herself before they can interfere drastically with the timeline, at the same time leaving a time capsule for her other self to retrieve just in time to stop worth in the present day. I doubt they'd use something so dull as a plot device though.

As to the Helen-John love/hate thing I didn't see Helen as being unreasonable at all. Apart from altruistic reasons; that he was willing to put the whole world at risk for his selfish ends which is bad enough, his plan is to take away her source blood i.e. immortality. I'd be pretty annoyed at someone wanting to take away immortality from me and I haven't even tasted it to miss it. Sure there's the whole jaded, lived too long angle etc but don't try and convince me at least part of her doesn't enjoy everlasting youth! ;)

jckfan55
June 22nd, 2011, 06:45 PM
I enjoyed the episode.

I may be reading things into the exchange btw John & Helen, but on first viewing I thought Helen was revealing her hurt when she said something like "if who I am now means so little to you that you'd erase it" even though she was also saying "it would never work."

I think she may have been trying to convince herself to give up on John after the dream world thing.

I'm a bit wary of how this story will be resolved, but heck, Damien's pulled it off before, I'm fairly confident he will again.

Skydiver
June 22nd, 2011, 07:49 PM
well, if she kills him in the past he'll never exist in the future, however, their tracking down of Worth is what led to the Five getting the immunities they had, so killing Adam before his little terrorist act would undo that.

she has to kill the present worth and dispose of him in such a way that no one knows who he is.

Skydiver
June 22nd, 2011, 08:11 PM
The transcript is done
http://www.jackfic.net/emeraldcity/sanctuarytranscripts/intotheblack.htm

as always, use, share, enjoy, just don't repost without permission.

also, the Factuary is up to date
http://www.jackfic.net/emeraldcity/sanctuarytranscripts/factuary.html

A list of who's who and what's what.

Huaracocha
June 22nd, 2011, 08:41 PM
well, if she kills him in the past he'll never exist in the future, however, their tracking down of Worth is what led to the Five getting the immunities they had, so killing Adam before his little terrorist act would undo that.

she has to kill the present worth and dispose of him in such a way that no one knows who he is.

They've travelled back to a point in time after they injected the Source blood though, no? Which reminds me of an unrelated thought I had.. if I was Will or Kate or anyone else in the know and not one of the Five I would have been straight down to the Vampire place they blew up immediately after looking for some Source blood to see what little powers I could tap into!

Chelle DB
June 22nd, 2011, 09:35 PM
As for poor John. If Helen changes the time line, then he wouldn't have changed putting their status back to what it was before he pulled in all that electricity. Does she want to not see him again....I think she will see him back in time and see the sweet sides of him again and fall in love again....not that she ever completely fell out of love with him. Good, bad or indifferent - you never forget your first real love!
Totally agreed. I don't believe that Helen is or ever will be over John...I think that's one of the reasons she acted like she did...she can't help but always feel something for him despite of all that has happened in the past...and even in the present.

I love his reaction to her: "in order to bed me in some other timeline" is priceless. Its sort of like a "well no, yes...ah. Frak" all in one look :D
That was what made me think she said things out of frustation and anger rather than from the heart. But I thought John's look was more of "what? No...but of course I want to bed you but that's not the real or only reason"...John loves her...many men do but I think those two will always be connected...I guess once you've had a relationship like theirs that has spanded all those years, how can one just switch it off.

i *loved* the look on helen's face when she took john's arm in the elevator!!
Yep...cute! :P It's the same I look I give my hubby when he drags me away from my computer to help him lift something off the truck or cook dinner...totally can read her mind in that snapshot! :P

don't take helen's words to john to heart! she's just overwhelmed, and don't forget the loving things she's said to him before. *hugs a shipper*
And the whle Cambodia thing...I definitely think she said what she said in a defensive manner...to protect herself to not get caught up in his charms. :)


I thought about this too. The Kabal was afraid of abnormals taking over. (Just playing devil's advocate;)) maybe if the Kabal succeeded, they would have had this under control? Hm....:D:confused::rolleyes:

I too had thoughts about the cabal and how they may be behind it all...since they had the 'abnormals must be caged' attitude, same as gen villanova.
i'm thinking whomever this power is that's put Lotus in place, they're backed by the cabal
The Cabal certainly came to my attention too but then I was thinking...would the Cabal have known about Hollow Earth?? I'm wondering if this is a good opportunity to bring the Cabal back.

a note i found while transcribing....druitt let adam live the first time. they had some sort of 'arrangement/bargain/deal'.
now magnus has gone back to stop him, and may be trapped in the past, and she's going to have to deal with stopping/killing a man based on his future crimes, what she knows he'll do...and do this in the face of a timeline he's trying to change.
well, if she kills him in the past he'll never exist in the future, however, their tracking down of Worth is what led to the Five getting the immunities they had, so killing Adam before his little terrorist act would undo that.
she has to kill the present worth and dispose of him in such a way that no one knows who he is.
I thought John just let Adam go the first time and that he was presumed to have drowned...did John always know that Adam survived the first time?
With regard to the whole going back in time...Helen can't change the past...the whole grandfather paradox will come into play...will this mean Ashley's future will be altered? Will Will's future be altered...come to think of it...everyone's future could be dramatically altered. Helen's gonna have to play it very carefully so as to not upset the current timeline...which I guess now with her back in the 1800's has already changed it.
I wonder, if Helen is indeed trapped in the past, could it be that when we see the Sanctuary back in the present time, Helen will have re lived all those years again and will in fact now be...let me do the math...160 + going back to 1898...so add that to 2011 which is 113...160 + 113...ouch...273 years old...wicked. :) Gee I hope I did that math right. :P
But the if she lived all those years again, would she have let Ashley go again?? Would she have had to make the same decisions and choices she had to in the other timeline?? Oi! :)

Skydiver
June 23rd, 2011, 04:38 AM
They've travelled back to a point in time after they injected the Source blood though, no? Which reminds me of an unrelated thought I had.. if I was Will or Kate or anyone else in the know and not one of the Five I would have been straight down to the Vampire place they blew up immediately after looking for some Source blood to see what little powers I could tap into!
maybe not.

for king and country, the Five got their 'govt turning a blind eye' arrangement from the mission to track adam down. she kills adam before he tries to kill all of london, then that won't happen.

__

Prime Minister: Well, of course, in and of itself, that is, uh, odd. But no, I was thinking more of your work with strange and dangerous creatures. Abnormals, I believe you call them. You see, we know all about your father's Sanctuary, and you taking up his mantle.

Magnus: Prime Minister, I'm afraid you've been misinformed. I really don't understand--

Prime Minister: Oh, excuse me. That'll be the others. Nigel Griffin... Invisible man. Doctor James Watson, Detective supreme, and Nikola Tesla, vampire, genius, and Montague John Druitt... Menace to society. So... Down to business? You see, we've known about you and your colleagues for some time, and we've given you your head because we thought the day would come when the five of you might prove useful.

Druitt: Well, I'm flattered.

Prime Minister: That day is here. I'm proud to offer you now the opportunity to serve your country.

Tesla: I'm Serbian.

Watson: Just ignore him.

Magnus: Why are you here, exactly?

Prime Minister: You are aware of a gentleman called Adam Worth?

Nigel: You mean the pipsqueak from school?

Prime Minister: Well, once, perhaps, but now a genius mind warped by rage and mania, and, I might add, quite a headache for our secret service bureau.

Druitt: A man after my own heart.

Tesla: And I would dispute the term "genius."

Magnus: Yes, we did know Adam years ago, but we've not seen him since then. What's he done?

Prime Minister: Well, our service agents tell us that Mr. Worth has amassed the funds and the technology to enact a great and dangerous crime upon this city.

Magnus: Which is?

Prime Minister: A rather deadly toxin has been stolen, and a great many Britons may die as a result.

Nigel: Well, surely the crown has a means of stopping him?

Prime Minister: Well, I'm afraid Mr. Worth's organization has grown roots deep inside British society, and, I am sorry to say, deep inside my government, too.

Magnus: You need a group of independent agents.

Tesla: With special talents.

Watson: Who are acquainted with his past.

Magnus: How certain are you of this threat?

Prime Minister: The stakes could not be higher.

__

Magnus: This comes from the King himself?

Prime Minister: His majesty's orders were quite specific.

Druitt: Well, Victoria was wrong about him. Old Edward certainly does have a backbone.

Watson: Surely you must have misheard.

Nigel: Sounds like we've been hired for a job.

Druitt: Like a theatre troupe.

Tesla: Kill Worth just because his lordship says so?

Watson: He's not a lord, he's a King. And, no. Go to hell, Mr. Prime minister.

Druitt: Seconded.

Nigel: Right, do it yourself, you lazy squids.

Magnus: Indeed. We are not assassins. Not for political gain, at least.

Druitt: Darling.

Prime Minister: Pity. Undertaking this project would be in your best interests.

Nigel: How do you figure that?

Prime Minister: Let me be frank. Some of you are criminals. Mr. Druitt here is very badly wanted down at Scotland Yard, and Mr. Tesla, although a foreign national, is facing several charges on illegal acts pertaining to the misuse of electricity.

Tesla: My work is illegal?

Prime Minister: It needn't be, and much the same thing pertains to you, Miss Magnus.

Magnus: Doctor Magnus... And I've committed no crimes.

Prime Minister: Not exactly, no, but you do carry on your father's work in the dark of night. The King could change all that for you.

Watson: Sorry... Are you bribing us?

Prime Minister: There are tremendous benefits in bringing to an early conclusion this Worth affair. Benefits for you all. A full and unofficial pardon, for you, Mr. Druitt, and the same for your indiscretions, Mr. Griffin. provided no more banks are pilfered from, of course.

Nigel: Well, a man has to make a living, doesn't he?

Prime Minister: And as for your endeavors, doctors Watson and Magnus, full financial and governmental support for your Sanctuary. Also unofficial, naturally, but stalwart nevertheless. I'm sure you can see how your all-important work would flourish under our protective wing.

Druitt: And if Mr. Worth does not come quietly?

Prime Minister: I'll leave you to talk about all this amongst yourselves at your leisure, although the King would appreciate a firm answer by tomorrow morning, please. Thank you for your time. I shall convey
your respects to the King.

---

Skydiver
June 23rd, 2011, 04:39 AM
I also had the same thought about the source blood. I'd be searching the ruins, not just for that, but to make sure that no sleeping vamps survived.

kes
June 23rd, 2011, 05:39 AM
She can't change anything and I dont think she'll try. But the fact that she's there immediately changes things. I love time travel stories, when they are done right.
Her mission: Kill or bring back with her, Adam Worth from her time.
I really believe Tesla will save the day, well.. get Magnus back. Its the perfect story for a Tesla hero :D

meredithchandler73
June 23rd, 2011, 07:08 AM
maybe not.

for king and country, the Five got their 'govt turning a blind eye' arrangement from the mission to track adam down. she kills adam before he tries to kill all of london, then that won't happen.

Aha - but if the Five kill Adam in the past (the one that is supposed to be in the past), there is no Hollow Earth storyline at all. I mean, maybe Gregory still ends up in Hollow Earth and tries to get a message to Helen, but so much of getting there did involve Adam. He sent the creepy albino creatures to get the knowledge from Will's mind, which they wouldnt have retrieved without the device our guys got from them. And that was just leading them to the map. Adam was the first to mention keystones and how they would lead to Hollow Earth.

It seems to me that Helen's goal is to stop PresentDayAdam from doing ANYTHING in the past which might alter history.

I think it was very smart of the writers to make the time travel to 1898 - after The Five came into being and after Helen discovered that John was Jack The Ripper. I know all the shippers out there wish there could be a glimpse of the happy times for John and Helen. (I wouldn't mind seeing that as well.) But this story takes the possibility of John's "do over" out of the equation. It will be fascinating to see who Helen meets in the past and how they interact.

Some wishes for season 4:
--I do enjoy the fact that they let bad things happen in the world of Sanctuary (like killing off Ashley). But I do hope there is a bit of a reset and that Praxis can be saved. I really wanted to see more of Helen and Ranna together. Also, I don't want Gregory Magnus to be dead. Or at least, not to die before Helen can see him again.
--And while I personally don't think Helen's vehement rejection of John is setting up for some kind of love interest for Helen, I still wouldn't mind one for her.

Huaracocha
June 23rd, 2011, 10:45 AM
Well we don't know whether they're enacting 'traditional' time travel - where there will be 2 versions of Helen & Adam now in 1898 or some version of 'Quantum Leap' type time travel where they have effectively transported their consciousness into their old selves. The latter would make sense of the shift from Hollow Earth to London but that's by the by. How they choose to go on this informs what they can / can't do with the story.

The nature of the Butterfly Effect means that we can't assume anything about the future / present based on what Helen does in the past. It's not necessarily as simple as x causes y therefore z e.g. if she kills 1898 Adam no Hollow Earth storyline in the future. A far less drastic action could have equally far-ranging ramifications, then again such a drastic action could be compensated by other means and still arrive at very similar results.

It's certainly got legs! I just hope there's more effort / thought put into how they play it out and rationalise it than there was in the Carentan episode where, for me at least, their efforts at interpreting timelines and time travel conunundrums fell rather short.

Skydiver
June 23rd, 2011, 11:25 AM
For all we know Helen kills Adam and then goes to a future that isn't right and she tries to go back and fix that. And that's the season four arc.

Huaracocha
June 23rd, 2011, 12:28 PM
The more I think about it, the more I feel that either they're going to use the only one Helen / Adam mode of time travel or our Helen is going to die somewhere in this time travel process. Otherwise we'd face the tricky scenario of 2 Helens going forward in the present day timeline!

ann_sgcfan
June 23rd, 2011, 03:03 PM
At the end of the episode, Helen enters the 1800's wearing her present day clothing... so I'm assuming by this there are now two Helen's in the 1800's.

Given Helen's stoic stance of not changing the past for fear of what it will change in the future ... Just the fact that she is there changes the future. Therefore, I'm hoping it's more than a cat/mouse game through history between present day Helen/ Adam before they push the reset button. Given her physician side to help save lives, I would like to see her wrestle with saving someone, knowing she has the ability to do it vs. letting them die... whether she follows through or not ... just seeing the dilemma would be interesting insight to the character.

Having Henry and Tesla working together on Adam's machine - I'm betting they will be able to figure out how to bring Helen back. LOL or go back to the past to bring her home ... but having Future Tesla in the past is a scary thought :P

Huaracocha
June 23rd, 2011, 03:34 PM
At the end of the episode, Helen enters the 1800's wearing her present day clothing... so I'm assuming by this there are now two Helen's in the 1800's.

Excellent point!

Rocky89
June 23rd, 2011, 03:51 PM
Plus Druitt is Jack The Ripper thanks to that parasite in him. Which he has now unleashed again on the world.

I hope that Helen will undo that along with whatever she does to fix what Adam is up to. I hope we don't lose this nicer John, for us and Helen.


Great episode nice to see Sanctuary back on track after a couple of slow episodes. Shame we have to wait so long for the next one now :|

I'm not sure we need to worry too much about how they deal with the fallout from abnormal invasion, Worth's destruction of Praxis etc. None of that will necessarily happen now as he and Helen have entered a different timeline. So many interesting possibilities..

Will Helen run into herself? Into 2 versions of Worth and kill them both? (depending on how they interpret time travel for the show I guess). Will she run into John and help him get control of the monster earlier in his life? Warn Dr Watson or Nigel about possible impending dooms?

Really anything is possible now although the suspicion is they'll come up with a reset switch of some kind to take us back to just before Alan set off his time field in 'our' timeline and prevent it. One plausible such scenario would be for Helen to kill Worth and herself before they can interfere drastically with the timeline, at the same time leaving a time capsule for her other self to retrieve just in time to stop worth in the present day. I doubt they'd use something so dull as a plot device though.

As to the Helen-John love/hate thing I didn't see Helen as being unreasonable at all. Apart from altruistic reasons; that he was willing to put the whole world at risk for his selfish ends which is bad enough, his plan is to take away her source blood i.e. immortality. I'd be pretty annoyed at someone wanting to take away immortality from me and I haven't even tasted it to miss it. Sure there's the whole jaded, lived too long angle etc but don't try and convince me at least part of her doesn't enjoy everlasting youth! ;)

I'd really like to see Helen run into herself in the past, I love when characters meet their doubles, I don't know why, I just do. ;) This kinda reminds me of the S4 premiere of Star Trek: Enterprise, when they go back to WW2, and Archer and the crew have to fix the timeline. ;)


I enjoyed the episode.

I may be reading things into the exchange btw John & Helen, but on first viewing I thought Helen was revealing her hurt when she said something like "if who I am now means so little to you that you'd erase it" even though she was also saying "it would never work."

I think she may have been trying to convince herself to give up on John after the dream world thing.

I'm a bit wary of how this story will be resolved, but heck, Damien's pulled it off before, I'm fairly confident he will again.

She had a point, he was going to alter probably the whole world, and there's no telling that even if it worked that they'd still be able to be together in an AR, either one of them could do something to end their relationship or they could fall out of love. John did the wrong thing for noble reasons, and Helen saw that, and that hurt her.


I thought John just let Adam go the first time and that he was presumed to have drowned...did John always know that Adam survived the first time?
With regard to the whole going back in time...Helen can't change the past...the whole grandfather paradox will come into play...will this mean Ashley's future will be altered? Will Will's future be altered...come to think of it...everyone's future could be dramatically altered. Helen's gonna have to play it very carefully so as to not upset the current timeline...which I guess now with her back in the 1800's has already changed it.
I wonder, if Helen is indeed trapped in the past, could it be that when we see the Sanctuary back in the present time, Helen will have re lived all those years again and will in fact now be...let me do the math...160 + going back to 1898...so add that to 2011 which is 113...160 + 113...ouch...273 years old...wicked. :) Gee I hope I did that math right. :P
But the if she lived all those years again, would she have let Ashley go again?? Would she have had to make the same decisions and choices she had to in the other timeline?? Oi! :)

If she does fix the timeline, and do whatever she's going to do, I wonder how far back it'll go, and maybe the events of Carentan won't even happen. Either way, I hope she remembers it all. ;) And I heard from AT and DK in some podcast from TV,eh that this episode is supposed to be kick a$$ for Helen. ;) Someone even said it'll be redemption for the awards. :p :D

Huaracocha
June 23rd, 2011, 04:48 PM
Yeah I'd love to see Helen bump into younger Helen would be a great scene :D Not sure they'd get along or agree.. potential conflict on interfering with timelines / discussing future events. How about a bit of Helen & Helen vs. Adam & Adam tag team action? My money's on the Magnus's!

Skydiver
June 23rd, 2011, 05:16 PM
or she kills adam, but not before he treats imogene. helen goes to the future and either doesn't know or can't kill a child and then deals with the fallout of a changed future

of course, saving imogene is what drove adam's quest to figure out time travel. if imogene survives then all his time stuff likely won't happen...so maybe if imogene lives helen will have to make sure she doesn't...or maybe adam's cure doesn't work thus proving that there might be a bit of 'fate' and 'destiny' in it all

majorsal
June 23rd, 2011, 05:27 PM
i'd like to see helen arrive in victorian england, with the sole purpose of finding and killing adam for good. and she does it, but now has to find a way back to her time. after some adventures she'd prefer to forget, she comes back home, to find everything exactly the way she left it, with the abnormals invading and the sanctuary network in trouble.

my preference is not messing with the timeline from the past (that would effect the future), but keeping what's happened in this episode for keeps. :p

Skydiver
June 23rd, 2011, 05:36 PM
on a very much less serious note....the lotus defense corp lieutenant...lt coxwell

someone's idea of a joke? or have i been paddling around in the gutter too long?

Huaracocha
June 23rd, 2011, 05:40 PM
Yeah I noticed that too :D Maybe it's just my (our?) infantile toilet humour or I spent too much time reading Dickens at school but I'm always on the lookout for naughty / silly names!

Kilgharrah
June 23rd, 2011, 06:04 PM
on a very much less serious note....the lotus defense corp lieutenant...lt coxwell

someone's idea of a joke? or have i been paddling around in the gutter too long?
I think it's cogswell

majorsal
June 23rd, 2011, 06:05 PM
on a very much less serious note....the lotus defense corp lieutenant...lt coxwell

someone's idea of a joke? or have i been paddling around in the gutter too long?


Yeah I noticed that too :D Maybe it's just my (our?) infantile toilet humour or I spent too much time reading Dickens at school but I'm always on the lookout for naughty / silly names!

i don't get it, and i've got a dirty mind :p

Skydiver
June 23rd, 2011, 06:11 PM
I think it's cogswell

it showed up as coxwell in the subtitles and coxswell in the wiki site

suse
June 23rd, 2011, 06:21 PM
on a very much less serious note....the lotus defense corp lieutenant...lt coxwell

someone's idea of a joke? or have i been paddling around in the gutter too long?

Yes.

;)

suse
June 23rd, 2011, 06:21 PM
it showed up as coxwell in the subtitles and coxswell in the wiki site

Never trust wiki, you know that Sky.

:P Ask Damian. I double-dog dare ya.

Skydiver
June 23rd, 2011, 06:25 PM
not trusting wiki is why i think i got it as coxwell in the transcript.

heck, the wiki site had Franz Kobra (I was having gi joe flashbacks for a few minutes)

I tend to go with the subtitle spellings

it's amazing what they'll have in there, but also what's missing. In out of the blue, they put in 'george' on the other side of the phone, which you couldn't even hear on the episode, but didn't put in the PA chatter in out of the black.

Skydiver
June 23rd, 2011, 06:29 PM
Never trust wiki, you know that Sky.

:P Ask Damian. I double-dog dare ya.

you should know better than to dare me ;)

Huaracocha
June 23rd, 2011, 06:54 PM
i don't get it, and i've got a dirty mind :p

If you separate the syllables of "Coxwell" you get "swell" as the 2nd syllable and.. erm... something else as the 1st :O

suse
June 23rd, 2011, 06:56 PM
you should know better than to dare me ;)

Nice way to put it, Sky. :D Hope he answers.

Skydiver
June 23rd, 2011, 07:23 PM
If you separate the syllables of "Coxwell" you get "swell" as the 2nd syllable and.. erm... something else as the 1st :O

a pesky swollen male chicken?

Huaracocha
June 23rd, 2011, 07:29 PM
Brings a whole new meaning to "swelling up like a rooster".

Skydiver
June 23rd, 2011, 08:03 PM
cock a doodle doo

ahem

EvenstarSRV
June 23rd, 2011, 08:53 PM
Finally found time to watch the episode and wow, I haven't been that surprised by finale ending in a while. Wasn't at all expecting the time travel stuff, but it'll be very interesting to see how the show handles Helen in 1898 and how they plan on getting her back to the present.

Overall I thought it was a very good finale, I like how the various dangling threads of the season (Adam, Praxis, the UN lady, Carentan, etc) all kinda came together, and the global implications of the Hollow Earth invasion should be interesting. I wonder if, as Henry suggested, it may lead to the Sanctuary network coming out to the public to an extent. I find it hard to believe the UN, Sanctuary etc will be able to cover up an event of this magnitude.

The only really weak part of the ep for me was the stuff with the Edge. I thought he looked the part of a leader and did a fair job with the role, but the fight with Will just seemed kinda silly and unnecessary. I'd rather have seen more with Kate and Garrus or Biggie interacting with the abnormals.

re Helen and Druitt, both of their actions made sense to me, and I think Helen was quite sincere in her rejection of Druitt. She's given her heart to the Sanctuary network for the past century and Druitt's basically saying that he wants to undo her life's work. While romantic in a way, I think Helen is right in saying that it's not really love, it's more obsession. If Helen wouldn't give up the network to save Ashley, I highly doubt she'd give it up for another chance with Druitt.

I also think Druitt trusting Adam and getting played a second time was the last straw for Helen. He put his own personal desires above the safety of the entire world, and I don't think that's something Helen would tolerate.


or she kills adam, but not before he treats imogene. helen goes to the future and either doesn't know or can't kill a child and then deals with the fallout of a changed future

of course, saving imogene is what drove adam's quest to figure out time travel. if imogene survives then all his time stuff likely won't happen...so maybe if imogene lives helen will have to make sure she doesn't...or maybe adam's cure doesn't work thus proving that there might be a bit of 'fate' and 'destiny' in it all

Oh, that could be really interesting, Helen forced to either kill Imogene or let her die in order to preserve the timeline. Even in the short term if Adam didn't lose Imogene he might not have gone on his crime spree, which prompted the deal the King made with the Five and allowed for the long-term future of the Sanctuary network.

Thank goodness we've only about a 4 months wait for the next season instead of the usually 8! Can't wait for S4. :)

Chelle DB
June 23rd, 2011, 08:55 PM
At the end of the episode, Helen enters the 1800's wearing her present day clothing... so I'm assuming by this there are now two Helen's in the 1800's.
Given Helen's stoic stance of not changing the past for fear of what it will change in the future ... Just the fact that she is there changes the future. Therefore, I'm hoping it's more than a cat/mouse game through history between present day Helen/ Adam before they push the reset button. Given her physician side to help save lives, I would like to see her wrestle with saving someone, knowing she has the ability to do it vs. letting them die... whether she follows through or not ... just seeing the dilemma would be interesting insight to the character.
Having Henry and Tesla working together on Adam's machine - I'm betting they will be able to figure out how to bring Helen back. LOL or go back to the past to bring her home ... but having Future Tesla in the past is a scary thought :P

or she kills adam, but not before he treats imogene. helen goes to the future and either doesn't know or can't kill a child and then deals with the fallout of a changed future
of course, saving imogene is what drove adam's quest to figure out time travel. if imogene survives then all his time stuff likely won't happen...so maybe if imogene lives helen will have to make sure she doesn't...or maybe adam's cure doesn't work thus proving that there might be a bit of 'fate' and 'destiny' in it all
I agree...I think we'll see two Helen's and two Adam's in 1898...either way I still think this time travel thing will have ramifications for the future...if Helen or Adam saves Imogene, will she bring a positive or negative reaction to the future timeline?
If anything happens to Adam in the past it will affect the present future...this is the beauty of sci fi! :)
All this talk of time travel is haunting me...woke up this morning, turned the telly on just as a military dude said something on the news about "the timeline"...I didn't hear anything else. :eek:

cock a doodle doo
ahem
*splash*
You know I didn't think anything of the name until you lot started talking about it. :rolleyes:

tomstone
June 24th, 2011, 12:33 AM
a pesky swollen male chicken?


Brings a whole new meaning to "swelling up like a rooster".

I get the name, but this now I dont get at all. :rolleyes:

Seems like my head hasnt been in the gutter enough.

Skydiver
June 24th, 2011, 06:12 AM
Coxwell sounds like s name from a bad pr0n movie

tomstone
June 24th, 2011, 05:25 PM
Coxwell sounds like s name from a bad pr0n movie

Still better then 2girls1cup.

kes
June 25th, 2011, 04:10 AM
From Twitter
@GateworldRocky: I uploaded a @YouTube video -- #InnerSpace Talks About #Sanctuary (Into The Black) With @damiankindler http://bit.ly/jLuWog

Galileo_Galilee
June 26th, 2011, 08:27 AM
It is a real name.


Coxwell is a station on the Bloor–Danforth line of the subway system in Toronto, Canada. The official address is 1568 Danforth Avenue but it is located on Strathmore Boulevard just east of Coxwell Avenue. It was opened in 1966.

This station is used as a switchover point for eastbound subway operators changing their shift, causing a slight delay while the crew is changed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coxwell_%28TTC%29



i don't get it, and i've got a dirty mind


Unfortunately, if you have a dirty mind it sounds like an erection.

Skydiver
June 26th, 2011, 08:32 AM
then yes, I do have a dirty mind :)

and that poor lieutenant musta been teased unmercifully his whole life

EH-T
June 27th, 2011, 10:21 AM
At the end of the episode, Helen enters the 1800's wearing her present day clothing... so I'm assuming by this there are now two Helen's in the 1800's.

Given Helen's stoic stance of not changing the past for fear of what it will change in the future ... Just the fact that she is there changes the future. Therefore, I'm hoping it's more than a cat/mouse game through history between present day Helen/ Adam before they push the reset button. Given her physician side to help save lives, I would like to see her wrestle with saving someone, knowing she has the ability to do it vs. letting them die... whether she follows through or not ... just seeing the dilemma would be interesting insight to the character.

Having Henry and Tesla working together on Adam's machine - I'm betting they will be able to figure out how to bring Helen back. LOL or go back to the past to bring her home ... but having Future Tesla in the past is a scary thought :P


Agreed. :)



Finally found time to watch the episode and wow, I haven't been that surprised by finale ending in a while. Wasn't at all expecting the time travel stuff, but it'll be very interesting to see how the show handles Helen in 1898 and how they plan on getting her back to the present.

Overall I thought it was a very good finale, I like how the various dangling threads of the season (Adam, Praxis, the UN lady, Carentan, etc) all kinda came together, and the global implications of the Hollow Earth invasion should be interesting. I wonder if, as Henry suggested, it may lead to the Sanctuary network coming out to the public to an extent. I find it hard to believe the UN, Sanctuary etc will be able to cover up an event of this magnitude. The only really weak part of the ep for me was the stuff with the Edge. I thought he looked the part of a leader and did a fair job with the role, but the fight with Will just seemed kinda silly and unnecessary. I'd rather have seen more with Kate and Garrus or Biggie interacting with the abnormals.

re Helen and Druitt, both of their actions made sense to me, and I think Helen was quite sincere in her rejection of Druitt. She's given her heart to the Sanctuary network for the past century and Druitt's basically saying that he wants to undo her life's work. While romantic in a way, I think Helen is right in saying that it's not really love, it's more obsession. If Helen wouldn't give up the network to save Ashley, I highly doubt she'd give it up for another chance with Druitt.

I also think Druitt trusting Adam and getting played a second time was the last straw for Helen. He put his own personal desires above the safety of the entire world, and I don't think that's something Helen would tolerate.



Oh, that could be really interesting, Helen forced to either kill Imogene or let her die in order to preserve the timeline. Even in the short term if Adam didn't lose Imogene he might not have gone on his crime spree, which prompted the deal the King made with the Five and allowed for the long-term future of the Sanctuary network.

Thank goodness we've only about a 4 months wait for the next season instead of the usually 8! Can't wait for S4. :)

EH-T
June 27th, 2011, 10:33 AM
Apologies for the double post but the GW nubbins are not letting me MQ or even get to the end of Evenstar's quote.

I agree with most of what you said and will just add a couple of points.

I also liked the way the ending tied all the various threads together but I am a wee bit concerned that the UN will become the equivalent of NID in Stargate. Not a big fan of that storyline so I hope it is not a big part of Sanctuary's future.

I agree with your comments regarding Helen and John. I did not find her reaction at all surprising.

I also agree with the stuff about The Edge. Isn't it ironic that Syfy wanted a tie-in to wrestling yet by the time the ep aired they had moved Sanctuary to Monday? So much for holding the Friday night wrestling crowd. Absolutely no point in the fight between Will and the wrestler.

I agree with those who think there is a tie to Adam and the abnormals who have come from Hollow Earth. It explains why they would revolt so quickly.



Really looking forward to the start of season 4! Can't wait to see helen in Victorian England.

Have to laugh at all the comments regarding solving the problem and the time line. I'm sure solving this one gave the writers headaches!

I was away on the weekend so just saw the episode quickly last night. I'll have to add more once I have a chance to properly watch the ep.

Skydiver
June 27th, 2011, 06:19 PM
yeah, the stuff with Edge was just so clumsy and screamed - to me - how much he was dictated to be in the show...and I wonder if the will/thelo fight was even network demanded

Just what you expect when you deal with network demanded stunt casting (which, like you said, went totally unnoticed because of them moving the show. IMHO, they wanted to tease the wrestling crowd they should have done it earlier in the series, not at the end)

EvenstarSRV
June 27th, 2011, 06:57 PM
Apologies for the double post but the GW nubbins are not letting me MQ or even get to the end of Evenstar's quote.

I agree with most of what you said and will just add a couple of points.

I also liked the way the ending tied all the various threads together but I am a wee bit concerned that the UN will become the equivalent of NID in Stargate. Not a big fan of that storyline so I hope it is not a big part of Sanctuary's future.

Yeah, I'm hoping they don't draw out the Sanctuary vs. UN/LDC turf battle. I think Hangover showed that Dr. Lee is open to the Sanctuary's way of doing things, so perhaps she'll come to side with them against Villinova.



I also agree with the stuff about The Edge. Isn't it ironic that Syfy wanted a tie-in to wrestling yet by the time the ep aired they had moved Sanctuary to Monday? So much for holding the Friday night wrestling crowd. Absolutely no point in the fight between Will and the wrestler.

I thought he did a serviceable job as the Hollow Earth people's leader, but the fight felt a little too much like pandering to wrestling fans. Like Sky, I do wonder if Edge's involvement included a note that he needed to fight someone.



I agree with those who think there is a tie to Adam and the abnormals who have come from Hollow Earth. It explains why they would revolt so quickly.

I believe Henry discovered in Adam's notes that he'd been meeting with various Hollow Earth tribes, including Thelo, so I think it's safe to say that Adam probably planned the whole invasion. He basically used them to distract that Sanctuary/UN enough so that he could finish his plan almost unnoticed.



Really looking forward to the start of season 4! Can't wait to see helen in Victorian England.

Have to laugh at all the comments regarding solving the problem and the time line. I'm sure solving this one gave the writers headaches!


Heh, I wonder if DK 'made' AM write them out of the corner again like he did this season with Kali 3. :P

I'm kinda hoping they don't resolve it the S4 opener, though that's probably what'll happen. I thought it was quite cool and daring for Fringe to spend part of their season going back and forth between two universes, so I think it'd be neat if Sanctuary did the same with the past and present storylines, at least for a few episodes.

Angela V
June 27th, 2011, 10:06 PM
I would love to see Helen trapped in the past for more than one episode! I want to see more of Watson and this is a way we can. Also maybe Adam was wrong in what year they were going to. There's so many possibilities that I really hope it doesn't get wrapped up quickly.

Skydiver
June 28th, 2011, 04:45 AM
I'd love to see her spend 2-3 episodes in the past before she can fix it and get to the future.

with a 13 episode season, I don't think we will, but I'd love to see her solve a problem without computers etc. (flashing back to her issues with carentan)

EH-T
June 28th, 2011, 09:20 AM
yeah, the stuff with Edge was just so clumsy and screamed - to me - how much he was dictated to be in the show...and I wonder if the will/thelo fight was even network demanded

Just what you expect when you deal with network demanded stunt casting (which, like you said, went totally unnoticed because of them moving the show. IMHO, they wanted to tease the wrestling crowd they should have done it earlier in the series, not at the end)

You may be right about the fight, that it was part of the deal.

Was OOC for Will to suddenly get involved in the fight, his job is to talk.

The wrestler was OK but it struck me on the rewatch that all wrestlers are really acting to a large degree and his role was similar to his "role" in the ring, that is, he was agitating and fighting.


I would love to see Helen trapped in the past for more than one episode! I want to see more of Watson and this is a way we can. Also maybe Adam was wrong in what year they were going to. There's so many possibilities that I really hope it doesn't get wrapped up quickly.


I'd love to see her spend 2-3 episodes in the past before she can fix it and get to the future.

with a 13 episode season, I don't think we will, but I'd love to see her solve a problem without computers etc. (flashing back to her issues with carentan)

I agree with both of you. That would be perfect.

jckfan55
June 28th, 2011, 04:02 PM
re Helen and Druitt, both of their actions made sense to me, and I think Helen was quite sincere in her rejection of Druitt. She's given her heart to the Sanctuary network for the past century and Druitt's basically saying that he wants to undo her life's work. While romantic in a way, I think Helen is right in saying that it's not really love, it's more obsession. If Helen wouldn't give up the network to save Ashley, I highly doubt she'd give it up for another chance with Druitt.

I also think Druitt trusting Adam and getting played a second time was the last straw for Helen. He put his own personal desires above the safety of the entire world, and I don't think that's something Helen would tolerate.


Thank goodness we've only about a 4 months wait for the next season instead of the usually 8! Can't wait for S4. :)
Can't green ya, but excellent points as usual. :)

jckfan55
June 28th, 2011, 04:06 PM
On another note, it occurs to me that going back to 1890s England (and maybe other time periods if Magnus has to chase Adam) is going to provide costume designer (award winner) Christina McQuarrie (did I get the name right) with a field day.

Skydiver
June 28th, 2011, 05:32 PM
I think helen has also been betrayed by druitt so many times, and apparently once so very deeply, that she can't ever trust him again.

she has moved on and the fact that he can't scares her. I think she's also affected by what happened in the dream world, how very cloying and 'i'll never let you go' and she's likely really afraid of him for the first time in a long time

ann_sgcfan
June 29th, 2011, 12:07 PM
I think helen has also been betrayed by druitt so many times, and apparently once so very deeply, that she can't ever trust him again.


I wonder about this ... because I would have completely agreed with you prior to the season 2 final. I mean come one Druitt was JtR - nothing else needed to be said ... but after season 2 we discover that JtR was actually caused by the creature that has latched itself onto to John. I know the "creature-made-me-do-it" card is an easy out ... but It's never been completely explained just how much John is in control.

If John is completely in control with only bursts of rage from the creature then I can see Helen being angry and feeling betrayed by John and her reaction to John in s3 final would be spot on... I wouldn't want anything to do with him either.

However, if the creature is so powerful that John only has the occasional freedom from it's control after an electrical shock or near death experience (which seemed to be the explanation in s2) ... then wouldn't Helen, due to her life's work, be more willing to continue her efforts in finding a way to release John from the parasite? OR Is she resigning herself to the fact that she can't save John from the creature and therefore at the end of s3 is her way of saying she is giving up on him?

kes
June 29th, 2011, 02:05 PM
He never accepted her help.

Huaracocha
June 29th, 2011, 02:42 PM
Speaking of Druitt, we've been focussing all our speculation and theorising on Helen and the timelines. What will Druitt be getting up to in the present day now that he overdosed on masses of electrickery and the creature may be in control again? Could be an interesting visit in store for the folks at the Sanctuary as if they didn't have their hands full enough already!

majorsal
June 29th, 2011, 02:51 PM
I wonder about this ... because I would have completely agreed with you prior to the season 2 final. I mean come one Druitt was JtR - nothing else needed to be said ... but after season 2 we discover that JtR was actually caused by the creature that has latched itself onto to John. I know the "creature-made-me-do-it" card is an easy out ... but It's never been completely explained just how much John is in control.

If John is completely in control with only bursts of rage from the creature then I can see Helen being angry and feeling betrayed by John and her reaction to John in s3 final would be spot on... I wouldn't want anything to do with him either.

However, if the creature is so powerful that John only has the occasional freedom from it's control after an electrical shock or near death experience (which seemed to be the explanation in s2) ... then wouldn't Helen, due to her life's work, be more willing to continue her efforts in finding a way to release John from the parasite? OR Is she resigning herself to the fact that she can't save John from the creature and therefore at the end of s3 is her way of saying she is giving up on him?

i have a feeling all of this is really just a way (and excuse) for helen to accept having a lover in season 4.

EvenstarSRV
June 29th, 2011, 04:30 PM
If John is completely in control with only bursts of rage from the creature then I can see Helen being angry and feeling betrayed by John and her reaction to John in s3 final would be spot on... I wouldn't want anything to do with him either.

However, if the creature is so powerful that John only has the occasional freedom from it's control after an electrical shock or near death experience (which seemed to be the explanation in s2) ... then wouldn't Helen, due to her life's work, be more willing to continue her efforts in finding a way to release John from the parasite? OR Is she resigning herself to the fact that she can't save John from the creature and therefore at the end of s3 is her way of saying she is giving up on him?

I think it's a bit more mixed between those two options. Helen said in Haunted that Druitt kept the creature at bay to an extent, so it still induced him to kill but not as much as it could have without his restraint. I don't think he's even been in either complete control or entirely at it's mercy.

And kes makes a good point, he's refused Helen's help at least three times, in 1888, in Sanctuary for All, and at the end of Haunted, and I'm sure esp at the beginning she tried or offered many more times. After over 100 years I wouldn't be surprised if she has given up on saving him.


Speaking of Druitt, we've been focussing all our speculation and theorising on Helen and the timelines. What will Druitt be getting up to in the present day now that he overdosed on masses of electrickery and the creature may be in control again? Could be an interesting visit in store for the folks at the Sanctuary as if they didn't have their hands full enough already!

That could be fun, maybe a bit of a return to the more bad guy Druitt we saw in Sanctuary for All.


i have a feeling all of this is really just a way (and excuse) for helen to accept having a lover in season 4.

Why would Helen need an excuse to accept a lover besides Druitt? It's not like her feelings for him (or his for her) has kept her from doing that before.

majorsal
June 29th, 2011, 04:43 PM
Why would Helen need an excuse to accept a lover besides Druitt? It's not like her feelings for him (or his for her) has kept her from doing that before.

b/c i'm just trying to find the big reason why helen is so ticked at him now. yeah, what he wanted to do was :S, but this guy's not had his head on straight for a looong time, and helen knows why, so i just don't see *why* she was so irked...

i mean, i do in some aspects, but this seemed SO sudden, and...

and this is coming from someone that's *not* a helen/john shipper. :p

Huaracocha
June 29th, 2011, 05:02 PM
b/c i'm just trying to find the big reason why helen is so ticked at him now. yeah, what he wanted to do was :S, but this guy's not had his head on straight for a looong time, and helen knows why, so i just don't see *why* she was so irked...

i mean, i do in some aspects, but this seemed SO sudden, and...

and this is coming from someone that's *not* a helen/john shipper. :p

He went along with Adam's plan to essentially destroy the world and everyone in it. Not directly but by messing with the timeline, indirectly they are potentially destroying (erasing) everyone and everything - which includes everyone Helen has known and loved since that point in time and indeed Helen herself. Personally I would think that's reason enough to be plenty irked even if they'd been best buds, lovers and soul mates beforehand, which of course they weren't!

majorsal
June 29th, 2011, 05:12 PM
He went along with Adam's plan to essentially destroy the world and everyone in it. Not directly but by messing with the timeline, indirectly they are potentially destroying (erasing) everyone and everything - which includes everyone Helen has known and loved since that point in time and indeed Helen herself. Personally I would think that's reason enough to be plenty irked even if they'd been best buds, lovers and soul mates beforehand, which of course they weren't!

and that's when i said i understood (the 'in parts') why she was :p, but johh 'does' have a handicap... maybe it's just how long helen has had to deal with this crap, with it only getting worse with time...

i'm of two minds on this, with the second feeling more like a shipper b/c i feel this is all really coming about to justify helen getting a lover next season. (remember, i'm not a helen/john shipper, but i understand the mind of shipping nonetheless :p :S :p)

Skydiver
June 29th, 2011, 07:30 PM
until she resets it, druitt is dead. the mountain went boom.

now...i dunno, could she warn past druitt about the evil in the energy vortex? Or how vulnerable he was when he zorted to being invaded...but just when did that creature possess him? was JtR him or the creature? we still don't know for sure.

majorsal
June 29th, 2011, 07:34 PM
until she resets it, druitt is dead. the mountain went boom.


do we know for sure that he is dead? couldn't he have zorted out before the explosion?

Skydiver
June 29th, 2011, 07:41 PM
no

he was too deep within the lode stone.

remember before, he had to go a distance away to be able to teleport.


Magnus: Right. Take this to the surface. Warm then about Praxis. I’ll go through Adam’s logs, see if there is any indication of any hideouts he may be using.

Druitt: I’m not leaving you here alone. It’ll take too long to get to a place I can teleport from.

Magnus: If Adam comes back, I’ll be ready. Go!


when he returns, he runs into where Helen is.

now, do we KNOW he's dead? no. Haven't seen a body. but he was at ground zero for adam's weapon going off and a mountain collapsing on top of him.

(and hey, just noticed, Druitt ended his sentence with a preposition ;)

majorsal
June 29th, 2011, 07:52 PM
no

he was too deep within the lode stone.

remember before, he had to go a distance away to be able to teleport.



when he returns, he runs into where Helen is.

now, do we KNOW he's dead? no. Haven't seen a body. but he was at ground zero for adam's weapon going off and a mountain collapsing on top of him.

(and hey, just noticed, Druitt ended his sentence with a preposition ;)

oh... i didn't think about the load stone stuff... :(

(((john)))

ann_sgcfan
June 29th, 2011, 08:21 PM
I think it's a bit more mixed between those two options. Helen said in Haunted that Druitt kept the creature at bay to an extent, so it still induced him to kill but not as much as it could have without his restraint. I don't think he's even been in either complete control or entirely at it's mercy.

And kes makes a good point, he's refused Helen's help at least three times, in 1888, in Sanctuary for All, and at the end of Haunted, and I'm sure esp at the beginning she tried or offered many more times. After over 100 years I wouldn't be surprised if she has given up on saving him.

They have only known about John's hitchhiker for a year so it's a bit of game changer ... I'm just wondering if they have resigned to the fact they can't free John from the parasite.

ann_sgcfan
June 29th, 2011, 08:37 PM
until she resets it, druitt is dead. the mountain went boom.

now...i dunno, could she warn past druitt about the evil in the energy vortex? Or how vulnerable he was when he zorted to being invaded...but just when did that creature possess him? was JtR him or the creature? we still don't know for sure.

I tend to lean toward the creature being responsible. In S2 the creatures ability to take on the entire Sanctuary base and render them useless in a calculated plan to eliminate them, stopped only by John allowing it to inhabit himself again ... and the relative peace and relief John felt once the creature was gone ... seemed to indicate the creature was more JtR than John.

ann_sgcfan
June 29th, 2011, 08:41 PM
Good point about John going boom ... I hadn't thought about the mountain going bye bye.
You know the writers are rough on the Five :P

Skydiver
June 29th, 2011, 09:10 PM
Ya know. Not only is John dead but, as far as will and the rest know so is helen. Unless they detect the time vortex and put 2 n 2 together.

Huaracocha
June 29th, 2011, 09:28 PM
Good point I had forgotten about the lode stone and just assumed (hoped) he would have teleported out of there. Have to assume he is dead then.. :(

necrule
June 29th, 2011, 09:35 PM
My view is that the creature is responsible for the urges to kill, but John is responsible for who is killed.

The creature separate from John is an indiscriminate killer, it'll kill anyone it can get its hands on at the first opportunity.

But when John gives in to the urges he doesn't just kill whoever is nearby, its very specific types of people. Prostitutes and those who provoke him. That does not come from the creature, that comes from John.

If there is a theme as to why the relationships between Helen and the suitors from her era fail, it is their misogyny.

EvenstarSRV
June 29th, 2011, 09:52 PM
b/c i'm just trying to find the big reason why helen is so ticked at him now. yeah, what he wanted to do was :S, but this guy's not had his head on straight for a looong time, and helen knows why, so i just don't see *why* she was so irked...

i mean, i do in some aspects, but this seemed SO sudden, and...

and this is coming from someone that's *not* a helen/john shipper. :p

Druitt basically told Helen he's willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone on the planet, as well as erase everything she's done for the past 120 odd years, to fulfill his desire/obsession with renewing their relationship. He's done crazy things before but, as far as we've seem, nothing quite on that level before.

And I still don't see why Helen would need to reject John in order to get a lover next season. It's been implied that, whatever Helen felt and continued to feel for Druitt, it didn't stop her from having many relationships over the years.


until she resets it, druitt is dead. the mountain went boom.

now...i dunno, could she warn past druitt about the evil in the energy vortex? Or how vulnerable he was when he zorted to being invaded...but just when did that creature possess him? was JtR him or the creature? we still don't know for sure.

But weren't Druitt and Helen far underground near Praxis? I'd think he'd be far from the exploding caldera on near the surface, plus there was a shot of the vortex traveling up the tunnels away from where Druitt and Adam's machines were.

kes
June 30th, 2011, 12:46 AM
b/c i'm just trying to find the big reason why helen is so ticked at him now. yeah, what he wanted to do was :S, but this guy's not had his head on straight for a looong time, and helen knows why, so i just don't see *why* she was so irked...

i mean, i do in some aspects, but this seemed SO sudden, and...

and this is coming from someone that's *not* a helen/john shipper. :p

AT said she wanted Magnus to have some fun and asked the writers to come up with something. But in S04 prep. Not before.

RealmOfX
June 30th, 2011, 03:50 AM
My view is that the creature is responsible for the urges to kill, but John is responsible for who is killed.

The creature separate from John is an indiscriminate killer, it'll kill anyone it can get its hands on at the first opportunity.

But when John gives in to the urges he doesn't just kill whoever is nearby, its very specific types of people. Prostitutes and those who provoke him. That does not come from the creature, that comes from John.

If there is a theme as to why the relationships between Helen and the suitors from her era fail, it is their misogyny.

Interesting theory on John choosing who he kills and I can see possible examples of it however it doesn't quite gel with him choosing to kill the empath.

Skydiver
June 30th, 2011, 04:32 AM
the creature is....his hunger pangs....makes him 'hungry', but john chooses if he picks up a carrot or hershey bar :)

kes
June 30th, 2011, 05:57 AM
My view is that the creature is responsible for the urges to kill, but John is responsible for who is killed.

The creature separate from John is an indiscriminate killer, it'll kill anyone it can get its hands on at the first opportunity.

But when John gives in to the urges he doesn't just kill whoever is nearby, its very specific types of people. Prostitutes and those who provoke him. That does not come from the creature, that comes from John.

If there is a theme as to why the relationships between Helen and the suitors from her era fail, it is their misogyny.


Interesting theory on John choosing who he kills and I can see possible examples of it however it doesn't quite gel with him choosing to kill the empath.
That and I'm assuming back in 1880 something there werent a lot of proper women walking around alone at night.

JanSam
June 30th, 2011, 06:41 AM
Interesting theory on John choosing who he kills and I can see possible examples of it however it doesn't quite gel with him choosing to kill the empath.

Doesn't it? John seemed regretful when talking to the empath and the empath's statement to him seemed to indicate the creature had most of the control at that time.

Empath "This will never be your home while you let this darkness control you."

and just before he kills her..

John "You should have said nothing. You should have left well enough alone. Why did you come to me?"

The Empath provoked John as she was a threat to both the creature and John if she told Helen.

And John knew Helen would know and come after him and yet Helen finds him lost in thought staring out the window. He even encouraged Helen to kill him.
John "I am who I am! It's high time you did something about it."
Even Helen saw into this.
Helen to Kate "It's more about compulsion than murder. I set him up for this, letting him loose on the Cabal. He knew I'd find out about his activities sooner or later. He wanted me to kill him."

So I agree with Ann; we really have no idea how much control John has and how much the creature has at any one time.

Another thing that I wonder is if the creature's agenda is "Chaos, death, suffering" (John's statement in Haunted when Helen asks him) then isn't Adam's plan playing into the creature's desire? The creature's desire to cause chaos, death, and suffering could have influenced John's desire to be with Helen. How much control over decisions does John have?? Helen just seemed to disregard the creature inside John. Don't get me wrong I do agree she'd be pissed but wouldn't she also consider the creature inside him?

jckfan55
June 30th, 2011, 08:26 AM
I think it's a bit more mixed between those two options. Helen said in Haunted that Druitt kept the creature at bay to an extent, so it still induced him to kill but not as much as it could have without his restraint. I don't think he's even been in either complete control or entirely at it's mercy.
I agree. He does hold it at bay. I think his letting it loose more on the Cabal made it harder to try to rein in then.



And kes makes a good point, he's refused Helen's help at least three times, in 1888, in Sanctuary for All, and at the end of Haunted, and I'm sure esp at the beginning she tried or offered many more times. After over 100 years I wouldn't be surprised if she has given up on saving him.


Possibly. But he (or the idea of who he was before and what they had) seems to have a hold on her. Also, Magnus give up? But she is seriously disgusted with him right now, that's for sure.

Skydiver
June 30th, 2011, 10:21 AM
That and I'm assuming back in 1880 something there werent a lot of proper women walking around alone at night.
Not to mention wearing pants. Totally scandalous. And being alone and broke in 1898 London means she's pretty much on her own and vulnerable.

EH-T
June 30th, 2011, 01:19 PM
Speaking of Druitt, we've been focussing all our speculation and theorising on Helen and the timelines. What will Druitt be getting up to in the present day now that he overdosed on masses of electrickery and the creature may be in control again? Could be an interesting visit in store for the folks at the Sanctuary as if they didn't have their hands full enough already!

There's even more than that to consider. There was a massive explosion, did he even survive?

I'm sure we will see more of Druitt in season 4, he is just too good a character to lose. however, it may take a reset of the timeline to save him from the explosion.

EDIT: just saw the othe rposts about John going boom. Missed those before.

jckfan55
June 30th, 2011, 02:20 PM
Not to mention wearing pants. Totally scandalous. And being alone and broke in 1898 London means she's pretty much on her own and vulnerable.
maybe she'll look for Dad.

suse
June 30th, 2011, 07:26 PM
Druitt basically told Helen he's willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone on the planet, as well as erase everything she's done for the past 120 odd years, to fulfill his desire/obsession with renewing their relationship. He's done crazy things before but, as far as we've seem, nothing quite on that level before.

I can see being pissed at marginalizing what she has done - and giving her an eventual death sentence if she never takes the blood - but is he really killing everyone of he goes back and changes things from before they exist? What is to say they won't be born under the same/different circumstances?


And I still don't see why Helen would need to reject John in order to get a lover next season. It's been implied that, whatever Helen felt and continued to feel for Druitt, it didn't stop her from having many relationships over the years.

John was gone for decades at a time. He's there more often now. But no, there is nothing to stop her. Though I think the events in Haunted and her reaction would point to unresolved feelings. I think it was a rather large jump from that to the last 2 eps, bth.


But weren't Druitt and Helen far underground near Praxis? I'd think he'd be far from the exploding caldera on near the surface, plus there was a shot of the vortex traveling up the tunnels away from where Druitt and Adam's machines were.

And he was standing right at the machines. :P Maybe he went deeper before it went BOOM.

EvenstarSRV
June 30th, 2011, 07:59 PM
Possibly. But he (or the idea of who he was before and what they had) seems to have a hold on her. Also, Magnus give up? But she is seriously disgusted with him right now, that's for sure.

I think she just wants a break from the cycle they've been locked in for years. I don't think she'll ever give up on trying to 'save' Druitt, but I can see her turning her back on trying to deal with or reason with him for a while. I think like Helen said IIRC, he let Adam live twice, everything else was besides the point.


My view is that the creature is responsible for the urges to kill, but John is responsible for who is killed.

The creature separate from John is an indiscriminate killer, it'll kill anyone it can get its hands on at the first opportunity.

But when John gives in to the urges he doesn't just kill whoever is nearby, its very specific types of people. Prostitutes and those who provoke him. That does not come from the creature, that comes from John.

If there is a theme as to why the relationships between Helen and the suitors from her era fail, it is their misogyny.

Interesting thought, that makes sense to me. Another note on the dynamic between Druitt and the creature, the more he teleports the more he loses control/the entity gains strength. In FK&C and Vigilante I think we see a more subdued Druitt because he hadn't been teleporting much and was taking drugs to suppress the entity. Since then he's been using his powers much more, making him more unstable IMO and more likely to recklessly go along with Adam's plan.


I can see being pissed at marginalizing what she has done - and giving her an eventual death sentence if she never takes the blood - but is he really killing everyone of he goes back and changes things from before they exist? What is to say they won't be born under the same/different circumstances?

Well, they also could just as easily have never been born. We don't know the full impact the actions of the Five, powered by the source blood, have had over the last century, but episodes like Normandy suggests they were fairly pivotal. If the D-Day landings had failed, who knows what the post-WWII world would have looked liked, or who would have survived to be alive in the present.



John was gone for decades at a time. He's there more often now. But no, there is nothing to stop her. Though I think the events in Haunted and her reaction would point to unresolved feelings. I think it was a rather large jump from that to the last 2 eps, bth.

It didn't seem like a big jump to me because I think they set it up, in a way, in Out of the Blue with Helen's rejection of him in the dreamworld. Even after that John locked away the Ripper and offered to give up everything for her, she couldn't see herself returning to the life she had with him. To me, that suggested that even if the real Druitt was able to get rid of the entity I don't think Helen could ever fully trust him like she used to, at least not enough to renew their relationship.



And he was standing right at the machines. :P Maybe he went deeper before it went BOOM.

But I thought it was the mountain/caldera that blew up, not Adam's machines.

suse
June 30th, 2011, 08:32 PM
Interesting thought, that makes sense to me. Another note on the dynamic between Druitt and the creature, the more he teleports the more he loses control/the entity gains strength. In FK&C and Vigilante I think we see a more subdued Druitt because he hadn't been teleporting much and was taking drugs to suppress the entity. Since then he's been using his powers much more, making him more unstable IMO and more likely to recklessly go along with Adam's plan.

Sounds reasonable. Til plot changed it. :P




Well, they also could just as easily have never been born. We don't know the full impact the actions of the Five, powered by the source blood, have had over the last century, but episodes like Normandy suggests they were fairly pivotal. If the D-Day landings had failed, who knows what the post-WWII world would have looked liked, or who would have survived to be alive in the present.
And others would likely have been born. One thing the human race does well is procreate.While I agree it looks like they played a pivotal role in some points in history, perhaps others would have stepped up to the plate. There are too many variables to really know.




It didn't seem like a big jump to me because I think they set it up, in a way, in Out of the Blue with Helen's rejection of him in the dreamworld. Even after that John locked away the Ripper and offered to give up everything for her, she couldn't see herself returning to the life she had with him. To me, that suggested that even if the real Druitt was able to get rid of the entity I don't think Helen could ever fully trust him like she used to, at least not enough to renew their relationship.


I realize it was set up. That's why I mentioned both episodes. I just don't really buy into it. Though decisions can be made in emotional distress that might later be looked at as not what one really wanted. Making a decision while under the influence of worm venom... and then not having a chance to recover a bit before the poop hits the fan. She's human enough to allow emotions to rule at times, which can work either way. Eh. Whatever.



But I thought it was the mountain/caldera that blew up, not Adam's machines.

Something made them blow up simultaneously. What, if not Adam's machines?

Skydiver
June 30th, 2011, 08:50 PM
you could also take ehr speech in out of the blue to have a deeper meaning....in the dream she was the happy artist, estranged from her hubby, who just happens to quit his job to try over.

but she doesn't want 'happily families', she wants 'more'....and it's possible that that 'more' was what pushed her to reject john (kinda like how, in stargate, I see Pete as fallout from Grace.....there was Sam, realizing that she never seems happy or tries to make it work with a guy, bound and determined to give that relationship a chance, even to the point of ignoring the traditional warning signs.

I think helen came out of 'out of the blue' realizing that 'normal' isn't for her and she wants more and that there's a part of her that has been and is waiting for john to 'heal'...and that he never will. that his monster will always lurk beneath the surface.

majorsal
June 30th, 2011, 09:10 PM
you could also take ehr speech in out of the blue to have a deeper meaning....in the dream she was the happy artist, estranged from her hubby, who just happens to quit his job to try over.

but she doesn't want 'happily families', she wants 'more'....and it's possible that that 'more' was what pushed her to reject john (kinda like how, in stargate, I see Pete as fallout from Grace.....there was Sam, realizing that she never seems happy or tries to make it work with a guy, bound and determined to give that relationship a chance, even to the point of ignoring the traditional warning signs.

I think helen came out of 'out of the blue' realizing that 'normal' isn't for her and she wants more and that there's a part of her that has been and is waiting for john to 'heal'...and that he never will. that his monster will always lurk beneath the surface.

was it ever explained in 'out of the blue' *why* helen and john were divorcing? something in helen's mind just doesn't want to accept happy with john. or, did helen create that reality in 'oftb', or were kate and henry responsible for it in some way?

she loves john, she always will, but going from her loving attitude with him in 'for king and country' to her rejecting him, even with the events that lead up to her being *so* ticked at him... it just felt too sudden. too out of the blue. :p

you could even see john's reactions to helen's anger and her accusations. he was :S with some of them, like he couldn't understand her extreme reactions to what he was doing.

but maybe 'out of the blue' seriously made helen look at just *what* she really wants with john... and maybe it's nothing romantic. maybe she's just tired of the game and over it all.

or maybe she'll change her mind. :p

i sound like a helen/john shipper :S :p

kes
July 1st, 2011, 03:39 AM
Not to mention wearing pants. Totally scandalous. And being alone and broke in 1898 London means she's pretty much on her own and vulnerable.


maybe she'll look for Dad.
I ment Druitt killing prostitutes. Why he picked them.
But yes, she'll def need help. And because of that she needs to change history.
If she meets dad and tells him about Hollow Earth, maybe that is what sends him there. And why he leaves Magnus the map. Ou totally fish eating its on tail.
Cant wait to see S04!!!

Skydiver
July 1st, 2011, 04:36 AM
they never explained where the 'blissful' stuff came from. If Kate and Henry made it up, or if the worm was trying to give them bliss and their subconscious just refused to accept that bliss.

I think the one thing, when will and helen were in the car and abby and druitt outside, both were waffling, until druitt screamed 'get out of the bloody car!!!!!!!!' and that's when will said 'let's go' and helen didn't hesitate.

I don't get the impression that druitt was mean or abusive in his relationship, but he did seem to be controlling. 'Honey, let's live this way', etc.

I think it may have been part of her old feelings of being too independant for the times. Born in an era when women weren't even legally considered a person, I don't think she ever took kindly to the idea that since she's female she was good for nothing but being a wife and mother and house keeper.

jckfan55
July 1st, 2011, 01:59 PM
I realize it was set up. That's why I mentioned both episodes. I just don't really buy into it. Though decisions can be made in emotional distress that might later be looked at as not what one really wanted. Making a decision while under the influence of worm venom... and then not having a chance to recover a bit before the poop hits the fan.

Good point.


She's human enough to allow emotions to rule at times, which can work either way.
True. I think she's very raw from recent experiences.
I also believe that though she may not see a future with Druitt, she can't get him completely out of her system.
And heck, if she could, from a show perspective that would eliminate a great element--this complex relationship with Druitt Magnus has. Love, hate, the need to try to cure him etc.




Something made them blow up simultaneously. What, if not Adam's machines?[/QUOTE]

Morigane50
July 2nd, 2011, 01:43 AM
Cruel episode because now we have to wait 3 or 4 months before to know what will happen , this will be long !
I found it was a good episode with a lot of actions and a lot of questions :
What I found interesting in this episode is that the future of the Sanctuary network may be in danger , if we think about what the girl from the UN says to Magnus that the situation is above the sanctuary competence , and then Magnus who disappears into the past , they really are not in a good position. Could it be the end of the Sanctuary , replaced by some kind of private military organisation?
How are they going to handle the massive invasion of abnormals and it is not possible that the humans do not discover the existence of abnormals, which may lead to very violent reactions from both parts .
How Magnus will be able to come back into the present time ?
Is Magnus's father dead ? ( I hope not ) and why didn't they find bodies when Magnus and John discovered Praxis completely destroyed ? maybe there are survival somewhere in Praxis ?
A lot of brainstorming for us during summer . I don't like cliffhangers , I am too impatient in general.

I liked the scenes between Magnus and John, knowing who is Druitt, it is still very touching to see that he is always running after his lost love , it is even a little childish from him but maybe it reflects the human part of him , the one which is not abnormal . Poor Helen who has to deal with that . In this episode she is really on the verge to loose everything she has , her sanctuary, her father , her feelings for Druitt which are always ambiguous , her life in the 21st century . What will happen if she meets her double in the 19th century ? can she die because of a temporal paradox ?
There were different scenes that I liked too ; The interaction between Will and Henry , Kate and her reaction when the soldier doesn’t even shake her hand ( Macho !) , Kate and Garris .
I found very funny the fight between Will and Mr Muscle , what did he had in mind , he was going to be massacred but fortunately Biggie arrived in time .
I didn’t really understand by whom Fallon was murdered and why , I don’t think she was going to really betray her own race , and if it was only to trap Will to do the diversion , it was cruel to murder her .
I liked a lot the last image , with Helen back in the years 1896 , even if we know and see that it is CGI , I always find beautiful to watch . I liked how people were looking at her . What will happen when she meet Adam Worth ?

To be continued ….
;)

Huaracocha
July 3rd, 2011, 07:16 AM
All the discussion of how 'hard' Helen is on John in this episode just illustrates to me how differently individual viewers can interpret and feel about what they are watching.

Firstly it wouldn't have surprised me, or seemed out of character or mean, if Helen had been this harsh to John with no provocation.. just because she's sick of him showing up and hassling her.

Secondly I'd regard failing to kill Adam and going along with his time-bending plan as more than provocation enough to abandon a best friend or disown a family member, let alone dress down a one time friend and lover who is now no more than an unwelcome stalker and occassional antagonist and threat.

Just goes to show how much of ourselves we put into the story we take from watching a show like this :)

ann_sgcfan
July 5th, 2011, 12:13 PM
All the discussion of how 'hard' Helen is on John in this episode just illustrates to me how differently individual viewers can interpret and feel about what they are watching.

Firstly it wouldn't have surprised me, or seemed out of character or mean, if Helen had been this harsh to John with no provocation.. just because she's sick of him showing up and hassling her.

Secondly I'd regard failing to kill Adam and going along with his time-bending plan as more than provocation enough to abandon a best friend or disown a family member, let alone dress down a one time friend and lover who is now no more than an unwelcome stalker and occassional antagonist and threat.

Just goes to show how much of ourselves we put into the story we take from watching a show like this :)

I agree we all watch shows differently. I watch shows with the other episodes in mind and I'm a stickler for details.

My problem is - why the sudden about face with the character? It's the inconsistency with Helen and even John that has me scratching my head ... it has nothing to do with me putting myself in Helen's shoes. Helen and John's relationship is complex at best, which makes the story interesting. While I personally don't see Helen and John jumping into a romantic relationship anytime soon, even before this episode aired. I could tell whatever they shared was deeply personal that effects them both, as just the memory of that time evokes emotions even in the present. I also don't see John as the "unwelcomed stalker and occasional antagonist/threat", that was more John from s1 ... The writers have moved beyond that and allied him with Helen and the sanctuary crew for much of s2 and 3. She was enlisting his help on many occasions.

I'm just trying to figure out how in "Haunted" s2 when John killed an innocent person Helen not only explains it's the creature that controls his rages, but she also takes partial responsibility. She didn't like it, she didn't condone it, but she understood him better than anyone. Wow now that sounds like someone that operates a facility that protects/ studies abnormals... It's not something most would do, it's a bold statement that says the sanctuary is more than a job, it's her life's work.

Now we have the end of s3 ... Adam the nemesis from the Five's past, who has evaded death not only from John's hands, but also from Helen's (when she shot him in the shoulder on the cliff). Now I agree Helen should be mad at John for allowing Adam to trick him again. I don't think anyone questions her motives there. But Helen's anger isn't so much that John was tricked ... it's more that John allowed Adam to live. She wanted John to kill Adam, because that's what John does. So it made it sound like Helen uses John as her killing lap dog ... and that to me doesn't sound like anything we have seen from Helen in past episodes. How does she go from wanting to help him, to using the creature that control him to do her bidding? THAT'S what I'm having a hard time processing.

Also having John come off as a love sick fool, didn't help the character at all. John who supposedly has outsmarted the highly intelligent Helen and Watson for the better part of a century suddenly gets outwitted by Adam because John let his emotions get the better of him???? What? The last scene between John and Helen doesn't gel with what I have seen in episodes past ... it sounds like I hated the episode and I didn't. I enjoyed all of it, except that one scene that seems to undo a lot of great character development.

EvenstarSRV
July 5th, 2011, 03:56 PM
Now we have the end of s3 ... Adam the nemesis from the Five's past, who has evaded death not only from John's hands, but also from Helen's (when she shot him in the shoulder on the cliff). Now I agree Helen should be mad at John for allowing Adam to trick him again. I don't think anyone questions her motives there. But Helen's anger isn't so much that John was tricked ... it's more that John allowed Adam to live. She wanted John to kill Adam, because that's what John does. So it made it sound like Helen uses John as her killing lap dog ... and that to me doesn't sound like anything we have seen from Helen in past episodes. How does she go from wanting to help him, to using the creature that control him to do her bidding? THAT'S what I'm having a hard time processing.

re the bolded, I'd point to Eulogy and Druitt going after the Cabal leaders. Helen herself later says in Haunted:


HELEN
It's more about compulsion than murder. I set him up for this, letting him loose on the Cabal. He knew I'd find out about his activities sooner or later. He wanted me to kill him.

I think Druitt was mostly right when he told Helen in this episode that she's kinda used him to do her dirty work over the years. I think she's capable and willing to kill when necessary (shooting Adam both in the past and in Hollow Earth), but both times she also seemed to believe/relied on Druitt to finish the job.

In general, I think Helen is often quite willing to 'use' people to fulfill her plans and goals. Now, usually this means appealing to their better instincts or their selflessness (like Ravi controlling the people in Carentan so she could set off the time node). But I don't think she's above utilizing someone's dangerous/evil abilities for her own purposes.



Also having John come off as a love sick fool, didn't help the character at all. John who supposedly has outsmarted the highly intelligent Helen and Watson for the better part of a century suddenly gets outwitted by Adam because John let his emotions get the better of him???? What? The last scene between John and Helen doesn't gel with what I have seen in episodes past ... it sounds like I hated the episode and I didn't. I enjoyed all of it, except that one scene that seems to undo a lot of great character development.

I do agree here re Druitt, while he's obviously still hung up on Helen I didn't think he was that driven to actively get back together with her.

Skydiver
July 5th, 2011, 04:55 PM
i can see how helen's used him...if she stalked and killed the cabal, it woulda been war and would have endangered the sanctuary. but if he does it....hey, he's a rogue that she has no control over,ain't her fault.

John does seem to be written to service the plot upon occasion.

that said, tesla did say that one thing they could always count on, john would never hurt helen deliberately.

Huaracocha
July 8th, 2011, 07:53 AM
I can see the idea that Helen uses John from time to time and perhaps it is a bit of an odd fit with her character to be outraged that John didn't kill Adam. When I watched the episode I never took it like that but more the reason why he let Adam live - it's not like John let him off the hook for humanitarian reasons.. ;)


...
that said, tesla did say that one thing they could always count on, john would never hurt helen deliberately.

I think this sums up how I viewed the John / Helen scene and why it doesn't strike me as odd for her to be so angry. The way I understand going along with Adam's time-bending plan, from Helen's POV, is that John is deliberately trying to hurt her. He's effectively trying to kill her and replace her with an alternate timeline version of Helen that he can still be with. Incidentally risking everyone and everything in the process - with particular risk to those closest to Helen over the course of her life since those will be the most likely affected.

To my way of thinking, in terms of emotional impact to Helen at least, John might as well have told her, "Adam and I have come up with a plan to make you mine. I have cloned you and erased the clone's memory back to when we were together. Now I am going to kill you. Anyone who notices the difference among your friends and colleagues I'll kill also." Except his plan is far worse than this because it would achieve all that and would eliminate her history of relationships as well, do who knows what to the uninvolved innocents in the world at large, not to mention rob Helen of her core identity as herself by erasing 100 odd years of her existence as if it had never been.


...
Also having John come off as a love sick fool, didn't help the character at all. John who supposedly has outsmarted the highly intelligent Helen and Watson for the better part of a century...

I completely agree with that, I've always been quite partial to the Druitt character but the more they push his obsession with Helen angle the harder I find it to relate to him. Maybe I've just never experienced love that deeply but he's starting to remind me of Kathy Bates' character in Misery! :eek:

jckfan55
July 8th, 2011, 12:28 PM
I'll have to rewatch it, but iirc they did play up the angle of John wanting to go back for romantic reasons. Now, him going back so that he doesn't get taken over by the Electrokiller I can see, with a benefit of going back to their happy couple days.
I think the scene may have been shortchanged a bit. Those two are very complex.

kes
July 8th, 2011, 12:55 PM
All the discussion of how 'hard' Helen is on John in this episode just illustrates to me how differently individual viewers can interpret and feel about what they are watching.

Firstly it wouldn't have surprised me, or seemed out of character or mean, if Helen had been this harsh to John with no provocation.. just because she's sick of him showing up and hassling her.


In the pilot he come for her blood, he's all messed up.
In the Five he shows up to save her life.
In Revalations he shows up with the drone and intel on the Cabal.
After that, if I remember correctly, its always Magnus that seekes him out.
He actually asks to be left alone in FKaC.
He shows up in Into the Black to warn her about Adam and because he needs help finding him, sure. But she came to him enough times before.
According to Normandy and the Pilot she's been putting up with him for quite sometime but she also sought (sp) him out quite a few times and never told him to leave her alone (when he's sane) until Into the Black. As far as we've been told.

majorsal
July 8th, 2011, 02:38 PM
I think this sums up how I viewed the John / Helen scene and why it doesn't strike me as odd for her to be so angry. The way I understand going along with Adam's time-bending plan, from Helen's POV, is that John is deliberately trying to hurt her. He's effectively trying to kill her and replace her with an alternate timeline version of Helen that he can still be with. Incidentally risking everyone and everything in the process - with particular risk to those closest to Helen over the course of her life since those will be the most likely affected.

To my way of thinking, in terms of emotional impact to Helen at least, John might as well have told her, "Adam and I have come up with a plan to make you mine. I have cloned you and erased the clone's memory back to when we were together. Now I am going to kill you. Anyone who notices the difference among your friends and colleagues I'll kill also." Except his plan is far worse than this because it would achieve all that and would eliminate her history of relationships as well, do who knows what to the uninvolved innocents in the world at large, not to mention rob Helen of her core identity as herself by erasing 100 odd years of her existence as if it had never been.

wow, that was a great explanation! :)



I completely agree with that, I've always been quite partial to the Druitt character but the more they push his obsession with Helen angle the harder I find it to relate to him. Maybe I've just never experienced love that deeply but he's starting to remind me of Kathy Bates' character in Misery! :eek:

i really wish john's motivations would have been like adam's, to get his daughter/ashley back. i also think helen wouldn't have been so angry with him if that had been his cause (whether it erased her and history).

Huaracocha
July 8th, 2011, 02:45 PM
I'll have to rewatch it, but iirc they did play up the angle of John wanting to go back for romantic reasons. Now, him going back so that he doesn't get taken over by the Electrokiller I can see, with a benefit of going back to their happy couple days.
I think the scene may have been shortchanged a bit. Those two are very complex.



i really wish john's motivations would have been like adam's, to get his daughter/ashley back. i also think helen wouldn't have been so angry with him if that had been his cause (whether it erased her and history).

Wholeheartedly agree and either / both of these motivations would make more sense to me and make John's plan less base and deplorable.

ann_sgcfan
July 8th, 2011, 03:16 PM
Looking at the transcripts that Sky provided a while back http://www.jackfic.net/emeraldcity/sanctuarytranscripts/intotheblack.htm

Adam, who has never been trustworthy- remember he said Helen killed his daughter. He and Helen have a very different version of the events surrounding his daughter's death. I'm guessing Adam and John's version of are very different as well. Even John tried to explain Adam was not telling the entire story.

We don't actually know what John's plans were ... we only take Adam's word for it, which has been proven to be worthless. Who's to say John hadn't planned on going back to only prevent himself from taking the source blood in 1886, and stopping the present Adam from any further damage. Who could blame him. If he had a chance to undo the JtR and all those he has killed over the past century ... why wouldn't he want to go back. Even if he was the only one that didn't take the source blood... he and Helen could have had 20, 30 or 40 good years, before she moved on with her life and he eventually died. Ashley would have been born in the 1800's, and the creature would never have latched onto John. We don't actually know what John's plans were. And If John would never hurt Helen, then Helen should have at least listened to what John had to say before she jumped on Adam's band wagon and blamed John for some atrocity that hasn't taken place yet.

From the transcript:

Adam: Oh, you always were a bit of a bore Helen. Even your boyfriend wanted a do over until he found we were going to the wrong time.

Magnus: What are you talking about?

Druitt: Adam…

Adam: Oh, he hasn't told you the whole story, has he? Of course not. Secrets and lies. You see, John wanted to go back to 1886, before the whole source blood incident.

Magnus: But you realized you couldn't do that.

Adam: She is a smart one, John.

Magnus: Going back to 1886 would have altered the time line. There's no telling what it would have done to the future, even the near future. Your daughter may never have been born.

Adam: Mmhm. And since this is definitely a one shot deal…

Magnus: You chose a different year.

Adam: 1898. The year she died. John got really upset. Started doing that menacing thing with his voice. That's why I had to hide, you see. And I'm guessing it's why he had to come back to you. Hoping you could somehow fulfill his dream.

Magnus: So you intended to use me for your own selfish agenda. How shocking.

Druitt: Of course not, Helen.

Adam: Oh give it up, John, she knows. Least you could do is have the decency to admit it.

Druitt: Don't talk to me of decency. I let you live. Twice.

Adam: Part of the game. I just play it better.

#####

Tunnels

Magnus: Don't talk to me.

Druitt: You can't seriously believe that I would lead you down.

Magnus: Can't I? You let Adam Worth live, twice. Everything else is beside the point.

Druitt: We need to get him back.

Magnus: How? We've overloaded these devices. There's no way to siphon enough power. Face it, John, we both lost.

Druitt: No we haven't. there's another way.

He grabs two cables from the large generators.

Magnus: What are you doing?

Druitt: The creature inside me lives on energy. I need only feed it what power the rift field.

Magnus: You can't do that. The creature will become too powerful. It will consume you.

Druitt: I caused this, Helen, I need to fix it.

He sparks and conducts and Adam's field collapses

Adam: Johnny, I always knew you were crazy but I never expected this.

Druitt laughs.

Adam: You're too late.

Adam's rift opens and he picks up a couple of bags.

Adam: Never enough time, is there?

He goes through.

Magnus: John?

Druitt: Almost.

Druitt falls to his knees.

Druitt: Can't blame me for the dream, no?

Magnus: The hell I can't.

EvenstarSRV
July 8th, 2011, 04:50 PM
i really wish john's motivations would have been like adam's, to get his daughter/ashley back. i also think helen wouldn't have been so angry with him if that had been his cause (whether it erased her and history).

Oh, that would have been very interesting, would Helen have been willing to undo that last 2 years of history in order to save Ashley? The impact on the world would have likely been much less since it was a far shorter jump back in time, though still significant esp to the Sanctuary network.


Looking at the transcripts that Sky provided a while back http://www.jackfic.net/emeraldcity/sanctuarytranscripts/intotheblack.htm

Adam, who has never been trustworthy- remember he said Helen killed his daughter. He and Helen have a very different version of the events surrounding his daughter's death. I'm guessing Adam and John's version of are very different as well. Even John tried to explain Adam was not telling the entire story.

We don't actually know what John's plans were ... we only take Adam's word for it, which has been proven to be worthless.

Well, also from the transcript:



Magnus: What difference would that make? And why would you allow him to live?

Druitt: He promised to take me with him. Back to Oxford. Before…before we injected he source blood

Magnus: Why would you want to do that?

Druitt: You know why. If I could have prevented us from taking that damnable blood things would have been so different. You and I could have been together. Raised children.



Magnus: If I’d been inside that transport module I’d have taken care of things myself, thank you. In any case, I wouldn’t have been taken in by his lies. How could you think that rewriting the past is any kind of solution? You’d really wipe out the last hundred years without so much as a second thought?

Druitt: To be with you, oh yes.

So I think Druitt himself stated the reasons for his collusion with Adam pretty clearly. I'm sure keeping himself from becoming Jack the Ripper was also a motivation, esp since in Haunted he was so eager to believe it was the entity alone that caused his bloodlust, but IMO his driving reason in this case seems to be to get back his relationship with Helen.

Though he did ultimately come through and made the sacrifice of his sanity in order to allow Helen to go after Adam. I think Tesla's observation that Druitt would never hurt Helen still mostly holds true, since even when he does hurt her, he's willing to do whatever it takes to right that wrong. He did the same in S1, by first hurting/using Ashley to coerce Helen, and then helping Ashley help him save her from Tesla.

majorsal
July 8th, 2011, 04:58 PM
So I think Druitt himself stated the reasons for his collusion with Adam pretty clearly. I'm sure keeping himself from becoming Jack the Ripper was also a motivation, esp since in Haunted he was so eager to believe it was the entity alone that caused his bloodlust, but IMO his driving reason in this case seems to be to get back his relationship with Helen.

Though he did ultimately come through and made the sacrifice of his sanity in order to allow Helen to go after Adam. I think Tesla's observation that Druitt would never hurt Helen still mostly holds true, since even when he does hurt her, he's willing to do whatever it takes to right that wrong. He did the same in S1, by first hurting/using Ashley to coerce Helen, and then helping Ashley help him save her from Tesla.

i wonder if john's 'obsession' with helen is in part his jack-the-ripper impulses? i don't know the history of jtr, his motivations, but john's all-encompassing obsession with helen could maybe be out of his control???

Skydiver
July 8th, 2011, 05:12 PM
theoretically, it would have been one huge reset. John would never teleport and never be possessed, helen would never live forever, they might have had ashley normally and he'd have his chance for happy families.

helen could still work with the abnormals, she'd just need to hand it off to someone else (at least in john's mind)

he used adam to try and get back. we still don't know what bargain adam made with him in the 1800's to save him from the river, but adam and john seem to have a dark partnership going back over a century

ann_sgcfan
July 8th, 2011, 07:00 PM
Regarding EvenstarSRV transcript post - good catch. I didn't go back far enough. LOL when I watched the scene I knew at some point I rolled my eyes - now I remember where.

OK well I'll leave this alone now. LOL, because the more I try to make sense why the writers would have Helen and John be portrayed like this - the less I like both characters, at least in this scene.

kes
July 9th, 2011, 05:22 AM
Oh, that would have been very interesting, would Helen have been willing to undo that last 2 years of history in order to save Ashley? The impact on the world would have likely been much less since it was a far shorter jump back in time, though still significant esp to the Sanctuary network.
Adam asks that in the ep. She says no.

EvenstarSRV
July 9th, 2011, 02:33 PM
i wonder if john's 'obsession' with helen is in part his jack-the-ripper impulses? i don't know the history of jtr, his motivations, but john's all-encompassing obsession with helen could maybe be out of his control???

Hmm, doubtful I think just because the two seem like opposites to me. JtR causes chaos and destruction while John's obsession has a very singular target and is more about building a family I think. Though I guess they could be two sides of the same coin, a sort of love/hate or good/evil duality.


Adam asks that in the ep. She says no.

Ah, good point I forgot about that.

Skydiver
July 9th, 2011, 04:47 PM
it wasn't no as much as 'not at the cost of billions of people'

so i think, had she been given an opportunity to get ashley back, with no consequences to anyone else, she very well would have considered it

kes
July 10th, 2011, 05:55 AM
it wasn't no as much as 'not at the cost of billions of people'

so i think, had she been given an opportunity to get ashley back, with no consequences to anyone else, she very well would have considered it
Well, yes of course. Everyone would.
But going back has consequences, so no.

dipsofjazz
July 10th, 2011, 07:19 AM
<snip>
we still don't know what bargain adam made with him in the 1800's to save him from the river, but adam and john seem to have a dark partnership going back over a century
In 'King and Country' Adam makes a deal with John when they are in the water after Helen shot him.


Down in the river. Druitt zorts into the water and pulls Adam up.

Adam: John...

Druitt: End of the line, old boy.

Adam: They'll be coming for you next. Maybe they'll let Helen and Watson go free, but the ripper? They're going to hunt you forever. She'll hunt you forever.

Druitt: I hope she does.

Adam: My safety deposit box. Bank account in Kensington. The key's in my flat in Marylebone, on the mantelpiece.

Druitt: What of it?

Adam: Safe houses. Weapons, pass codes. Anything you need to help you avoid capture, it's yours.

Druitt: I can't let you live, old boy.

Adam: John...Let me die here like this. Please...Let me go.

Druitt lets him go and Adam sinks.

Druitt: <narrating>He was close to death.I let him go with honor.

End of flashback.

Druitt: He was as good as his word. Everything I found in his safe deposit box helped me avoid detection for the next 80 years.

Magnus: His death gave us all a future.

Druitt: Mmm.

EvenstarSRV
July 10th, 2011, 01:06 PM
Regarding EvenstarSRV transcript post - good catch. I didn't go back far enough. LOL when I watched the scene I knew at some point I rolled my eyes - now I remember where.

OK well I'll leave this alone now. LOL, because the more I try to make sense why the writers would have Helen and John be portrayed like this - the less I like both characters, at least in this scene.

I'm not sure either of them are meant to be particularly likeable in those scenes. Druitt risking the lives of billions for his own personal desires, and Helen betraying her motto of 'Sanctuary for All' by completely rejecting John.

Druitt started to redeem himself by sacrificing his sanity to help Helen go after Adam, and I don't think Helen will be able to keep her back to John for long, too much history between them and ultimately he is an abnormal deserving of her help like any other.


Well, yes of course. Everyone would.
But going back has consequences, so no.

Yeah, Helen probably knows that even going back only a couple of years could have significant consequences that she couldn't predict, so she wouldn't risk it.

Matt G
August 3rd, 2011, 04:08 AM
1. Praxis is toast! Ouch!

2. Interesting to see that Helen tried to publicise the existence of abnormals in the late 1940s! That's a story I wouldn't mind seeing.

3. OK...how the hell are you going to keep quiet the issue of a load of abnormals coming out from under the ground?

4. Not sure why Helen followed Adam through the rift, going back in time is one hell of a gamble. She's now stuck in Victorian England and hell if I know how she's going to get back.

kes
August 3rd, 2011, 06:13 AM
4. Not sure why Helen followed Adam through the rift, going back in time is one hell of a gamble. She's now stuck in Victorian England and hell if I know how she's going to get back.

She wasnt planning to get back. At that point I'm guessing: "I have to stop him" is what she was thinking.

Mousie
August 8th, 2011, 10:19 AM
he used adam to try and get back. we still don't know what bargain adam made with him in the 1800's to save him from the river, but adam and john seem to have a dark partnership going back over a century

From what I can remember of the episode I was left with the impression that rather than it being a pact Adam was dying and perhaps feeling a kinship with John (He may have seen it as both of them being pawns of Helen's given his warped view of her) he wanted to pass on his network to help John escape (getting one over on Helen at the same time by keeping John out of her clutches). I didn't read anything more into it.

I did find parts of ITB a bit slow and boring but on the whole it was very ggod. I personally hope that we don't end up with all of Hollow Earth on the surface but I'm sure they will do it well if we do. I loved the ending with Helen just appearing with guns and leather outfit on the streets of old London and the way people were looking at her, the gentleman in the background starting to hurry his companion away whilst both looking at her.

Before they said it was were Adam was working from did anyone else think those 2 power sources looked a bit like cryo pods? For a short while I thought that Ranna and her Dad would be in them, escaping the turmoil.

Feast of the Muse
August 10th, 2011, 03:40 PM
was it ever explained in 'out of the blue' *why* helen and john were divorcing? something in helen's mind just doesn't want to accept happy with john. or, did helen create that reality in 'oftb', or were kate and henry responsible for it in some way?

she loves john, she always will, but going from her loving attitude with him in 'for king and country' to her rejecting him, even with the events that lead up to her being *so* ticked at him... it just felt too sudden. too out of the blue. :p


I have to say, when John came out with the truth about letting Adam live and why, I was behind Helen all the way. All this time she's been thinking he's redeemable, that if they got the parasite out, he'd be that sweet, serene John that we saw in Haunted. But he (assuming it is him talking, not the psycho) shows that he just never got it. All that effort he spent trying to be her man, and he misses the biggest thing there is about her. It broke my heart to realize that he just never got her. He was so focused on trying to win her, he didn't even see her for herself.

Back in FKAC, he was all sweet and vulnerable and doped up. So her old feelings for him were kicked up as well as her doctor's instincts to try to soothe and heal him. She got double whammied on that one and let her guard down. But in these latest episodes, he's functioning as a member of the team. She's giving him responsibilities and trusting that he'll follow her orders, because hello, he'll do anything for her, right? Guess she miscalculated on that one. So, there you go with her reactions. It's all about her expectations of him, and in FKAC, she really had none except to tell her where Adam was.

I think in OOTB that the creature just gave them the toxin, and their minds put them in their particular dreams. This would be very much like the original matrix, where the humans rejected the "perfect" world that was made for them. It is very much like the X-files episode Field Trip (6x21). I would like to know why Helen's mind made her an artist (who knew she harbored that interest?). And was the memory of Ashley too painful to be included at all? She invented a world where she'd been married to John in the past, he's left her in peace for a while, and she just wants him gone again, but no Ashley. I think her bliss world is just one where she's not constantly in emotional pain.

meredithchandler73
August 12th, 2011, 05:31 AM
Terrific insights, Feast of the Muse! I do love how wonderfully complicated the John-Helen relationship is. It's hard to tell just how much the energy creature living inside John affects him, but another thing that people may forget - he hasn't spent the last 100 years with Helen. Based on the episodes last season it seems that Helen found out that John was The Ripper and confronted him. They have no contact again until the episode For King and Country (about 20 years after the Ripper murders), but their interaction at that time seems to be mainly as part of The Five - working together to stop Adam Worth. Until the episode Normandy, I thought Helen didn't see John again until the first episode of the series - meaning three years ago. But again, their interaction in Normandy is brief. (There is more interaction between John and James in Normandy.) The fact is, until John came back "cured" for the first time (after Tesla's shock treatment seemed to temporarily subdue the creature inside him), the only Helen he really knew was from 100 years earlier. And while some things about a person don't change over a lifetime, lots of things do. I remember in the episode The Five when John has finally convinced Ashley to tell him where Helen is so he can help save her from Tesla - John and Ashley are in the underground catacombs and come upon spent shell casings. Ashley picks one up and confirms they are definitely her mom's. I'm paraphrasing, but John says, "Does your mother always carry a gun?" and after hearing distant shots Ashley replies, "With good reason." I remember thinking that I wished there were more moments like that early on - John learning about the present day Helen. But that actually fits with what we saw in Into The Black - how John is much more focused on the Helen of the past. Would he or could he learn to love the present day Helen?

As I said, I love how wonderfully complex these characters are! I'm dying to see what happens next! In the past, no less!!!


I think in OOTB that the creature just gave them the toxin, and their minds put them in their particular dreams. This would be very much like the original matrix, where the humans rejected the "perfect" world that was made for them. It is very much like the X-files episode Field Trip (6x21). I would like to know why Helen's mind made her an artist (who knew she harbored that interest?). And was the memory of Ashley too painful to be included at all? She invented a world where she'd been married to John in the past, he's left her in peace for a while, and she just wants him gone again, but no Ashley. I think her bliss world is just one where she's not constantly in emotional pain.

I agree that Helen and Will's particular dreams created the world they were living in, not the creature. And
certain parts of the reality Helen created for herself make sense - that she had loved John and it didn't work and she was able to move on from it - a parallel to the real world. (Just like Will being involved with Abby was expanded in the dream to being married with a kid on the way. Perhaps Will's dreams are what his parents wanted for him - to be a doctor, married and having kids.) I think Helen being an artist ties in with her never having had Ashley - she tells John that she wants to be left alone, doesn't want any responsibilities, or life and death situations. It made sense to me that there was choice of a job that doesn't interact with people. As Feast of the Muse said, she wanted to be rid of the emotional pain.

Really looking forward to season 3 coming out on DVD. ONE MONTH! I'll be fascinated to hear commentary on this episode.

StarSancFar
August 12th, 2011, 07:55 AM
Time travel is a tricky topic to choose in a show or film. There are many possibilities of how it would change events, there's the Doctor Who version that they use, then there's the 'Bill and Ted's excellent adventure play-out, Then there's star Trek, another example is on Stargate.....

I know what I mean...basically if she goes back and e.g stops only john from taking the blood, then he won't be able to teleport and so wouldnt have warned her about adam in the future, and therefore helen wouldn't have gone back in time in the first place. So then the past has changed already, she wouldnt have stopped john from taking the blood, he would become a teleporter and he WOULD have warned her... Then the first scenario plays out again, then the second....it's basically a big loop of two different scenarios playing out....the future would never come into existence either after the 'going back in time bit'.

Does anyone actually understand LOL, it's hard to explain :P

P.S. Loved into the Black....oh I wonder what happens!!!

selene0789
August 29th, 2011, 03:10 PM
You know, I've been thinking about this for a while now, and I'm not so sure that Magnus is completely writing off John, as of the last episode. She's pissed, absolutely, but I think the whole "I don't think we were ever meant to be together" is left over from the psych worm incident. In the mind!verse, her marriage with John didn't work out, but I think that may simply be part of the discordant factor of the verse itself.

Like, a part of her mind knew it wasn't quite right, and the failed marriage and empty house and sleeping pills were all part of it. Otherwise, why wouldn't the psych worm just put her into a happy, loving home and family? The residual feeling of not-rightness might be feeding into her seemingly writing off the possibility of ever finding a way to be happy together.

That said, I do think she's perfectly right to be ticked at him for trying/wanting to overwrite the person she'd become over the 150 years she's been alive. Ugh. Just the idea of a guy (or anyone) being callous enough to completely dismiss who a person is simply to have the person they think that person should be is just wholly inhuman and unnatural.

But I do believe he has the best intentions. He wants to be happy-- who doesn't-- it just so happens he can't be happy in current circumstances... Oh my goodness. Something this complicated has got to qualify as epic love. One for the ages, literally! :D

And I was also thinking, about what they could do with the possible rewrite of history that the time travel allows... It's totally not going to happen, but wouldn't be cool to see what would happen if current Magnus followed Adam back to 19th Century England, only to realize that he's murdered 19th Century Magnus because he perceived her as a threat? And then, with no way to get home after Adam is taken care of, current Magnus has to assume the role of 19th Century Magnus in order to preserve the timeline? And by trying to stick to the timeline and keep everything the same, she has to make all the same bad decisions and mistakes she made the first time around, only this time she's aware of the ramifications? And she has to relive all of the world's worst tragedies and crimes against humanity a SECOND time?

I've got two words for you: DARK MAGNUS.

StarSancFar
August 31st, 2011, 08:47 AM
You know, I've been thinking about this for a while now, and I'm not so sure that Magnus is completely writing off John, as of the last episode. She's pissed, absolutely, but I think the whole "I don't think we were ever meant to be together" is left over from the psych worm incident. In the mind!verse, her marriage with John didn't work out, but I think that may simply be part of the discordant factor of the verse itself.

Like, a part of her mind knew it wasn't quite right, and the failed marriage and empty house and sleeping pills were all part of it. Otherwise, why wouldn't the psych worm just put her into a happy, loving home and family? The residual feeling of not-rightness might be feeding into her seemingly writing off the possibility of ever finding a way to be happy together.


Thats a good theory, about the psych worm leaving a sort of imprint in her mind of uncertainty


That said, I do think she's perfectly right to be ticked at him for trying/wanting to overwrite the person she'd become over the 150 years she's been alive. Ugh. Just the idea of a guy (or anyone) being callous enough to completely dismiss who a person is simply to have the person they think that person should be is just wholly inhuman and unnatural.

But I do believe he has the best intentions. He wants to be happy-- who doesn't-- it just so happens he can't be happy in current circumstances... Oh my goodness. Something this complicated has got to qualify as epic love. One for the ages, literally! :D

I agree, he deffo just wants to be happy, afterall, the source blood changed his life for the worse and he has to live with the fact that he's done all the horrible things to people. Now that he has a chance to change all of that, he will, and to be honest, who wouldn't?
Epic love deffinately! :D


And I was also thinking, about what they could do with the possible rewrite of history that the time travel allows... It's totally not going to happen, but wouldn't be cool to see what would happen if current Magnus followed Adam back to 19th Century England, only to realize that he's murdered 19th Century Magnus because he perceived her as a threat? And then, with no way to get home after Adam is taken care of, current Magnus has to assume the role of 19th Century Magnus in order to preserve the timeline? And by trying to stick to the timeline and keep everything the same, she has to make all the same bad decisions and mistakes she made the first time around, only this time she's aware of the ramifications? And she has to relive all of the world's worst tragedies and crimes against humanity a SECOND time?

I've got two words for you: DARK MAGNUS.

That would be an epic storyline, and I could see it happening, it's deffinately dark! But it would mess with the show's story in a way the producers would find difficult to get themselves out of, like what would the solution be? :P
But having to live through your darkest hours again would be too much of a strain on her I think, she would just breakdown.... :(