PDA

View Full Version : A Good Man Goes To War (3207)



GateWorld
April 18th, 2011, 07:32 AM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s6/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/agoodmangoestowar1-160x120.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">DOCTOR WHO - SERIES 32</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s6/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">A GOOD MAN GOES TO WAR</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 3207 (607)</FONT>
<DIV STYLE="margin-top:10px; padding:0;">Rory and the Doctor come to Amy's rescue at a secret military base that is raising an army against the Doctor, calling on some old friends to save her and her new baby.</DIV>
<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s6/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Sealurk
June 4th, 2011, 11:30 AM
Awesome Rory, Badass Rory. Restac revived. Danny Boy and River…oh wow. Wow oh wow. Wow. Have I mentioned, WOW?!?!

Cronus
June 4th, 2011, 11:30 AM
OMG That was awesome :P

Teddybrown
June 4th, 2011, 11:31 AM
Omfg!!!!
What a brilliant episode!
So many great things baout it, a Sontaran that can breastfeed, all of the Doctors friends and foes rallying to his aide, the Doctor being tricked, River Songs identity!
Wheres the Doctor going??
I dunno whether Im happy or sad about who River Song is, I kinda wanted something totally out there and whacky, I suppose this is, but maybe a bit too obvious?
Soooo psyched for Part 2 now!

Missster.Freeman
June 4th, 2011, 11:31 AM
WHAT A MIND FRAK!

Good job I was lying on the couch or I'd have been floored!

Nth Chevron
June 4th, 2011, 11:32 AM
WHAT THE ACTUAL **** !!!!!!!

That was awesome in ways that dont even have words to describe it.

I figured out the whole River thing 3 seconds before she showed them the prayer leaf :D

Aside from the man she kills, which, judging by the 3 second Next time pic and the words "Time Runs Out" is getting clearer.

Best episode ever, bad Doctor and awesome balls to the wall Rory !!!!

I'm gonna watch that at least 20 more times over the week end !!!!!

N.C

Admiral Mappalazarou
June 4th, 2011, 11:34 AM
Awesome Rory, Badass Rory. Restac revived. Danny Boy and River…oh wow. Wow oh wow. Wow. Have I mentioned, WOW?!?!

I'm pretty sure that wasn't Restac, not from the story she told on how they met.

Yes. Great episode.

Let's Kill Hitler!

Flyboy
June 4th, 2011, 11:35 AM
ZOMFG!!!!!!!

Danny Boy!

Clergy!

Cybermen!

THE LAST CENTURION!

DANNY BOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



*collapses in fit of fandom squee overload*

Nth Chevron
June 4th, 2011, 11:36 AM
Heres an even more interesting question, as River is Amy's little girl and 99% proof that Melody is the little girl that regenerated in DotM, that means that when she dies in Library/Forest she could regenerate again and not be dead.


I hope she doesnt become Kovarian due to the Doctor abandoning her.

N.C

Sealurk
June 4th, 2011, 11:36 AM
I'm pretty sure that wasn't Restac, not from the story she told on how they met.

Yes. Great episode.

Let's Kill Hitler!

Ah well, still awesome. I must have misheard. Damn my failing ears!! But still, what an episode. What a brilliant, superb, fantastic episode.

"Demons run when a good man goes to war". Brilliant, brilliant line. Loved the poem at the end too.

Admiral Mappalazarou
June 4th, 2011, 11:39 AM
Heres an even more interesting question, as River is Amy's little girl and 99% proof that Melody is the little girl that regenerated in DotM, that means that when she dies in Library/Forest she could regenerate again and not be dead.


I hope she doesnt become Kovarian due to the Doctor abandoning her.

N.C

Not true. She even said that should the Doctor take her place in the chair in FotD it would kill him stone dead before he could regenerate. It's the reason she KO'd him and chained him to the rail, and took the hit herself.

Nth Chevron
June 4th, 2011, 11:40 AM
She is combined Human Timelord though, so that might give way to unforseen side effects and such

N.C

Admiral Mappalazarou
June 4th, 2011, 11:42 AM
She is combined Human Timelord though, so that might give way to unforseen side effects and such

N.C

Because she's a hybrid of both, because of being born during TARDIS transit or *on the wedding night*, I still doubt that she's as powerful as a full Time Lord because she's still half human. So if the Doctor didn't stand a chance against the chair in FotD then River certainly wouldn't.

Admiral Mappalazarou
June 4th, 2011, 11:49 AM
Also GREAT to see my favourite pirates again (if not briefly) :D I wonder why they didn't join in the battle outside the TARDIS though?

Cronus
June 4th, 2011, 12:18 PM
I'm slightly confused about timelines and what not though - so the Doctor now knows how Amy's child dies? And Amy knows how the Doctor dies? And River went to jail for killing a good man (presumably the Doctor?)? But why doesn't River react more to Amy and Rory in the past season or so? And why, when we first met River, is she supposedly from the 51st century? And where is the Doctor's daughter in all this?

My head hurts :P

Zarius
June 4th, 2011, 12:49 PM
Heres an even more interesting question, as River is Amy's little girl and 99% proof that Melody is the little girl that regenerated in DotM, that means that when she dies in Library/Forest she could regenerate again and not be dead

Actually, no, since her body was destroyed

And she can't become Kovarian, she's significantly older and we know how River dies.

Teddybrown
June 4th, 2011, 01:11 PM
How do we think this will be resolved?

Also, what are everyone elses reactions to River being Amy and Rorys daughter?
I kinda didnt want that as it was abit too obvious, I wanted something completely wild and wacky, but there are still a load of unanswered questions around her...
Im happy and sad at the same time lol (cant decide whether I like it or not), but theres alot more to be revealed about her so Im looking forward to seeing her again...

I kinda guessed that they had taken the baby or done something to it because it was too easy getting it back, but I didnt expect them to pull a ganger baby on us...

So it wasnt the Silence that impregnated her, but theres still a whole heap of questions regarding them and the Little Girl, they answered one major question, but left so many other major questions outstanding...

Also, who are the headless monks?

One last question, I just read somewhere that we should keep our eyes on the monitors and corridors, anyone see anything fishy that could be easily missed? Or something unconspiquous (probs spelt wrong) that could hint at whats coming up??

Nth Chevron
June 4th, 2011, 01:18 PM
Treat em mean keep em keen :P

N.C

Ian-S
June 4th, 2011, 02:24 PM
Slightly disappointed at River's identity because it seemed too obvious, but still a lot of unanswered questions.

I still think the "Good Man" is Rory, don't forget he had a sonic screwdriver during the episode and I didn't see him give it back, hmm....

Also unless what we saw in episode 1 was the ganger!doctor, then the hand at the end is not the Doctor, see my previous paragraph please.... ;)

Alan
June 4th, 2011, 02:32 PM
Absolutely amazing episode and the revelation of River's identity was such a total shock that most definitely NOT a disappoint!

Looking forward to Autumn and getting the rest of the questions answered in the stories ahead! Cannot wait! Bring it on! :D

Trivia: I think this story marked the first appearance of the Mondasian Cybermen last seen in 1988's Silver Nemesis judging by the fact that they didn't display the Cybus Industries logo on their chest and that their spaceships were highly reminiscent of those used in the 1968 story The Invasion.

The_Carpenter
June 4th, 2011, 02:41 PM
The River being Amy's daughter thing I had that figured out at the start of the season.... or close to!

Great episode but why are they still using Gilson pipettes in the 51st centruy (or whenever this was set)? and I was rolling on the floor when Amy waved one around like a weapon!

Alan
June 4th, 2011, 02:50 PM
The River being Amy's daughter thing I had that figured out at the start of the season.... or close to!

Great episode but why are they still using Gilson pipettes in the 51st centruy (or whenever this was set)? and I was rolling on the floor when Amy waved one around like a weapon!

You did, huh? How?

wise one
June 4th, 2011, 02:59 PM
cool episode. the sontaran was great, guess there will be even more surprises instore and how does the silence get involved in this since river knows nothing on them.

river actually might be the one that kills the doctor perhaps through some secret command in her brain or something since they intended her as a weapon.

The_Carpenter
June 4th, 2011, 03:07 PM
You did, huh? How?

Twas a hunch I had ever since we saw a pic of Amy and the kid back in day of the moon, add that to the kid regenerating and Amy's worries about a 'timehead'.

Given that River has a firm grasp of the whole 'wibbly wobbly timey whiney, goes ding when theres stuff...' stuff, the ability of them to use Regeneration to explain having a different actress (who may look unlike Alex Kingston) portray younger versions of River.

DigiFluid
June 4th, 2011, 03:19 PM
Trivia: I think this story marked the first appearance of the Mondasian Cybermen last seen in 1988's Silver Nemesis judging by the fact that they didn't display the Cybus Industries logo on their chest and that their spaceships were highly reminiscent of those used in the 1968 story The Invasion.
Aha! I thought this too! Glad to see that GW's resident WhoMaster had the same thought :D I wonder what it means for future storytelling though? I seem to recall that the original (real) Cybermen were utterly defeated in the Cyber-wars of the 2500s; their only survivors being the band that were rediscovered and defeated in Tomb of the Cybermen? Admittedly, that'd probably be about 2500 years prior to this episode so that's plenty of time to rebuild.

Anyway, another fantastic episode. I think I preferred the original/rumoured title Demons Run, but that's such a minor issue that it's hardly worth mentioning. I loved this episode, and I can't wait to see how this story continues to play out and how it fits in with the Silence!

edit; oh, something else I forgot to mention! It seems it's now canon that the homo-reptilia of last year's two-parter are indeed called Silurians :)

SGalisa
June 4th, 2011, 03:24 PM
I'm slightly confused about timelines and what not though - so the Doctor now knows how Amy's child dies? And Amy knows how the Doctor dies? And River went to jail for killing a good man (presumably the Doctor?)? But why doesn't River react more to Amy and Rory in the past season or so? And why, when we first met River, is she supposedly from the 51st century? And where is the Doctor's daughter in all this?

My head hurts :P

I haven't seen the episode, won't get to see it until next week ... but read the spoilers, cause I couldn't wait :D .... so I know who River is -- by now.

Anywho... here's why I think River didn't recognize Rory or Amy and vice-versa -- I mentioned it in the River Song topic -- so this is a partial quote from there ;)

As for River not knowing who the child was, the Doctor mentioned that the Silence creatures were operating on some sort of post-hypnotic suggestion, and therefore, chunks of River's entire life could have been blanked out of her memory, as a result -- deliberately by the Silence. Same issue with Amy (and Rory) not knowing who River was -- altho, they were traveling forward in time, River was going back and forth... On the other extreme, River seems to have no problem being a fully grown adult as *River Song* knowing where her connections to the Doctor are in various points of the time-stream.

Also, if the Silence creature did tell Amy that she would *bring* (not break, but BRING) the silence, it could make sense that it was the time of silence brought on by River not telling the Doctor who River *really* was...??
just a few thoughts...

Also, River claimed that she is *quite the screamer*, ehhh?? She did say "now there's a story for yah!" (spoilers!)
perhaps, not what one might think??? :D
as a baby, or perhaps while having a baby herself -- if she was pregnant and having morning sickness, as well..?? Rory didn't complain about feeling sick, and neither did Canton.. and neither did that lady in the bathroom -- Joy?? or was joy just that lady's mood??

Teddybrown
June 4th, 2011, 03:29 PM
Slightly disappointed at River's identity because it seemed too obvious, but still a lot of unanswered questions.

I still think the "Good Man" is Rory, don't forget he had a sonic screwdriver during the episode and I didn't see him give it back, hmm....

Also unless what we saw in episode 1 was the ganger!doctor, then the hand at the end is not the Doctor, see my previous paragraph please.... ;)

What hand do you mean can I ask?
I agree with you on Rivers identity, Im kinda playing with the good man being Rory too.

Sealurk
June 4th, 2011, 03:33 PM
What hand do you mean can I ask?

I think he means the skeletal hand clutching the fading sonic screwdriver. It's the teaser (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G47Er3hbBaw) after the episode.

Ian-S
June 4th, 2011, 03:44 PM
Yes that's what I meant, after the credits you saw what Sealurk describes with the words "Time runs out" after it for about 3 seconds.

I had gone dashing off to the toilet and when I came back the Mrs had the credit's paused and simply said "you missed this".. :lol:

Nth Chevron
June 4th, 2011, 03:48 PM
At the very end, after the credits, at least in the uk, there was a picture of a skeleton hand resting on the Doctors Sonic and the words "Time runs out" then fade to black.

Here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzW4dx0lQSQ

Have fun being chilled again :P

N.C

Forseti (a.k.a. Thor's lawyer)
June 4th, 2011, 03:54 PM
In other potentially historical news:
Am I right in thinking that this episode might reveal the Doctor's actual name for the very first time ever? We don't know what it sounds like (yet), but maybe we now know what it looks like. (Assuming that the Gallifreyan writing on the cot spells out the Doctor's name and not some kind of nursery rhyme).
Maybe this is how River knows of the Doctor's name? We know that she can understand and write Gallifreyan. And since it looks like she will be spending/has spent some quality time in this cot...
Come to think about it:
In SitL/FotD did the Tenth Doctor realize River had been in his cot? Or might there still be something else we're missing?

PMN1
June 4th, 2011, 04:28 PM
Got to say, was expecting a bit more.

Most interesting thing was the Sontaran....some amazing lines...and what Alex Kingston hinted at regarding the cot in the Confidential after.

knowles2
June 4th, 2011, 04:34 PM
Well clearly it me but I was disappointed with this episode.

Far to rush in to many places, was there even a story. To many new characters just appear out of nowhere with no explanations. I spotted the baby being a fake a mile off, to obvious.

All I can say about River. is that at least I was right about her not being the doctor wife, but I along with half internet who all pretty much predicted River was pond daughter a while back. at least the Doctor wife episode, some guest it in the first episode.

The entire war was a complete disappointment, yes it great tricking the doctor, but when you bring that many people together I expected something bit bigger and more fearsome. Especially with the colonel speech, Cybermen fleets. An a name like demon run, I was expecting a huge battle, not a small ambush and a bit of hand to hand combat.

Some good individual pieces in the episode but as a whole a big disappointment, especially given the hype surrounding it. It was far to rush, lack story, lack the scale to impress me.

knowles2
June 4th, 2011, 04:45 PM
In other potentially historical news:
Am I right in thinking that this episode might reveal the Doctor's actual name for the very first time ever? We don't know what it sounds like (yet), but maybe we now know what it looks like. (Assuming that the Gallifreyan writing on the cot spells out the Doctor's name and not some kind of nursery rhyme).
Maybe this is how River knows of the Doctor's name? We know that she can understand and write Gallifreyan. And since it looks like she will be spending/has spent some quality time in this cot...
Come to think about it:
In SitL/FotD did the Tenth Doctor realize River had been in his cot? Or might there still be something else we're missing?

I think the name on the cot is River Song/Melody pond. Which is how the Doctor connected the dots that River was Amy daughter before she spelled it out to Pond. Which means the cot was never the Doctors of cause and we are left with the big question of where it came from. At least that what I reckon anyway.

Teddybrown
June 4th, 2011, 04:52 PM
Yes that's what I meant, after the credits you saw what Sealurk describes with the words "Time runs out" after it for about 3 seconds.

I had gone dashing off to the toilet and when I came back the Mrs had the credit's paused and simply said "you missed this".. :lol:

Thanks Sealurk, Ian-S and Nth Chevron for pointing that out
Unluckily, my family isnt that kind, I went out of the room and missed that bit lol and it isnt on the iPlayer version
Thanks for the links

kcatlantis
June 4th, 2011, 04:53 PM
Interesting thought, River does not kill the Doctor. She's in jail because she killed someone important, and the people are against the Doctor. If she killed him they would praise her.

knowles2
June 4th, 2011, 04:53 PM
cool episode. the sontaran was great, guess there will be even more surprises instore and how does the silence get involved in this since river knows nothing on them.

river actually might be the one that kills the doctor perhaps through some secret command in her brain or something since they intended her as a weapon.
In a prequial clip shown last week the blue alien sold a device that was to inserting in the brain. Sound like a mind control device to me.

P-90_177
June 4th, 2011, 05:04 PM
I have to say that out of the 7 episodes so far this season I just cannot pick a favorite. Every episode has had so many grand and awesome moments with heartfelt character interactions to funny and witty one liners to action packed Doctor Who style excitement.

This episode however just turned the volume all the way up to ten.

It certainly started off with a boom. Rory the Roman is still absoloutley awesome. The fact that he can stand in front of a group of armed cybermen and demand that they comply is pretty much the ballsiest thing a Doctor Who Companion has ever done. Even Captain Jack had the good sense to run away from the Doctors Enemies.

I loved all the additional Allies the Doctor had. The Silurian and the Sontaran were just cool and it would make sense that the Doctor would trust them since out of all the Doctors enemies, those two races are the most honour bound so if you can get just one on your side then you've got a heck of a Go-to guy.
I didn't mind that we hadn't seen these characters before either. At the end of the day the Doctor has many other adventures we don't get to see and we know that he ended up travelling by himself after Rory and Amy finished their honey moon so it's only natural that he would make new friends even if they didn't neccesarily join him on his journey.

The headless monks also made for an awesome monster. Hideously simple I believe is the term.

I also liked the girl soldier. I'm afraid I didn't catch her name but she was obviously there to try and resemble Alex Kingston for much of it. Her manner of speech was even similar. But the best moment I think was when in her dying moments the Doctor knelt down to her and spoke to her like a friend and said that he remembered her......and then as soon as she was gone turned back to the Shilurian and had to ask who the girl was. The look on The Doctors face said it all at that moment.

The final reveal at the end was nicely done of course. Naturally rumours were abound that Amy's baby was River and in all honesty I was one of the people who didn't like the idea. I saw it as too predictable. Certainly as soon as I saw that on the Baby's hospital crib it had written "Melody Pond" I put two and two together. At first when I noticed that was the route they were going down I was a little dissapointed, but the reveal itself was so brilliantly written and expertly acted that I didn't care. It was fantastic to see the Doctors Crib too. We know it's his. But we don't know who else has used that crib over the years. It's an interesting concept that I definately hope they go further into.



So now.............Questions still to be answered:

Is it in fact River/Melody in the space suit that apparently kills the Doctor?

What plans do/did the silence have for Melody?

Where does the eyepatch lady come into this?

What exactly is written on The Doctors Cot?

Who is the Good man River kills?

Will the Flesh Doctor come back?

Could River still be The Doctor's wife?

How does papa Rory feel about the Doctor kissing his daughter?

knowles2
June 4th, 2011, 05:08 PM
Interesting thought, River does not kill the Doctor. She's in jail because she killed someone important, and the people are against the Doctor. If she killed him they would praise her.

If she the girl in the Space Suit that walk out of the river, then there is a strong possibility she is the one that killed the doctor, at least a past version of her, and she may not remember it because of the Silence abilities to wipe memories.

I am going to take a guest and say the suit is capable of teleporting through Space and time , to keep her hidden from the Doctor. An her killing the Doctor what encourages her to break free from the suit, which why the killing of the Doctor by her hands had to happen, to set everything else up that is to come and has already happen. Which also explain when he says he understand why she doing this, because history has to happen the way it happens, and why she so protective about spoilers.

Jonzey
June 4th, 2011, 05:15 PM
Fantastic, but disappointed that the whole River thing turned out to be the most obvious solution. I kinda expected more from Moffat, something totally unpredictable and out there, but something that makes perfect sense too.

knowles2
June 4th, 2011, 05:28 PM
I also liked the girl soldier. I'm afraid I didn't catch her name but she was obviously there to try and resemble Alex Kingston for much of it. Her manner of speech was even similar. But the best moment I think was when in her dying moments the Doctor knelt down to her and spoke to her like a friend and said that he remembered her......and then as soon as she was gone turned back to the Shilurian and had to ask who the girl was

I am thinking we will run into her again. Out of all the characters she the only one that was interesting. An she also clearly intertwined with River/Melody past at some point May be a child hood friend, and the Doctor Future.

Alan
June 4th, 2011, 05:40 PM
Aha! I thought this too! Glad to see that GW's resident WhoMaster had the same thought :D I wonder what it means for future storytelling though? I seem to recall that the original (real) Cybermen were utterly defeated in the Cyber-wars of the 2500s; their only survivors being the band that were rediscovered and defeated in Tomb of the Cybermen? Admittedly, that'd probably be about 2500 years prior to this episode so that's plenty of time to rebuild.

Wow. Thanks so much for the extremely kind endearment. Very much embarrassed now :o but balanced with an incredible appreciation. Cheers :)
Yes, I don't think much is known about our universes Cybermen past the 26th century. Presumably there's more Cyber Nomads out there like those seen in 1975's Revenge of the Cybermen so between the 26th century and what I took to be the 50th or 51st centuries in A Good Man Goes to War lord only knows what happened to make the Cybermen a significant power again. The parallel Cyberman in The Pandorica Opens was certainly different in that it contained more than just the removed brain of a human it contained the remains of an entirely upgraded human. Maybe there was a meeting between the Mondasian Cybermen and the parallel Cybermen and from that their technology and Cyber Conversion techniques took an upgrade?


Anyway, another fantastic episode. I think I preferred the original/rumoured title Demons Run, but that's such a minor issue that it's hardly worth mentioning. I loved this episode, and I can't wait to see how this story continues to play out and how it fits in with the Silence!

Yes, indeedy. I'm looking forward to seeing where the Silence come in to this story too. Problem is that we'll all forget about it once we see it. ;)


edit; oh, something else I forgot to mention! It seems it's now canon that the homo-reptilia of last year's two-parter are indeed called Silurians :)

Were they not called Silurians in The Hungry Earth at all? :S I thought they had been. I have a homo-reptilia action figure from that story and its packaging has it marked up as a Silurian.

Teddybrown
June 4th, 2011, 05:40 PM
I have to say that out of the 7 episodes so far this season I just cannot pick a favorite. Every episode has had so many grand and awesome moments with heartfelt character interactions to funny and witty one liners to action packed Doctor Who style excitement.

This episode however just turned the volume all the way up to ten.

It certainly started off with a boom. Rory the Roman is still absoloutley awesome. The fact that he can stand in front of a group of armed cybermen and demand that they comply is pretty much the ballsiest thing a Doctor Who Companion has ever done. Even Captain Jack had the good sense to run away from the Doctors Enemies.

I loved all the additional Allies the Doctor had. The Silurian and the Sontaran were just cool and it would make sense that the Doctor would trust them since out of all the Doctors enemies, those two races are the most honour bound so if you can get just one on your side then you've got a heck of a Go-to guy.
I didn't mind that we hadn't seen these characters before either. At the end of the day the Doctor has many other adventures we don't get to see and we know that he ended up travelling by himself after Rory and Amy finished their honey moon so it's only natural that he would make new friends even if they didn't neccesarily join him on his journey.

The headless monks also made for an awesome monster. Hideously simple I believe is the term.

I also liked the girl soldier. I'm afraid I didn't catch her name but she was obviously there to try and resemble Alex Kingston for much of it. Her manner of speech was even similar. But the best moment I think was when in her dying moments the Doctor knelt down to her and spoke to her like a friend and said that he remembered her......and then as soon as she was gone turned back to the Shilurian and had to ask who the girl was. The look on The Doctors face said it all at that moment.

The final reveal at the end was nicely done of course. Naturally rumours were abound that Amy's baby was River and in all honesty I was one of the people who didn't like the idea. I saw it as too predictable. Certainly as soon as I saw that on the Baby's hospital crib it had written "Melody Pond" I put two and two together. At first when I noticed that was the route they were going down I was a little dissapointed, but the reveal itself was so brilliantly written and expertly acted that I didn't care. It was fantastic to see the Doctors Crib too. We know it's his. But we don't know who else has used that crib over the years. It's an interesting concept that I definately hope they go further into.



I agree with most of the stuff you said here.
I really liked the Sontaran and hoped Rory or the Doctor would save him, but some great characters dont get saved...
I agree with you that just because we havent seen them before, doesnt mean the Doctor hasnt interacted with them as we dont see all his adventures.
I also agree with you regarding River being Amy and Rorys daughter. I too saw it as a bit predictable, but it was so well done that I didnt really mind... I didnt really put two and two together as I was too focused on the episode lol. When the other girl was dying, I had a sudden thought she might be River as River mentioned seeing the Doctor as a kid and she did too, but that thought didnt last long, then I thought she was the Doctors daughter by the way they were speaking, but then I finally realised as Rory, Amy and River were talking that River was their daughter.


Fantastic, but disappointed that the whole River thing turned out to be the most obvious solution. I kinda expected more from Moffat, something totally unpredictable and out there, but something that makes perfect sense too.

I wanted something unpredictable that made sense too, yeah Im abit disappointed it was a bit of an obvious solution, but it was done well, so Im half and half right now, need to do a full rewatch now...

Teddybrown
June 4th, 2011, 05:43 PM
Aha! I thought this too! Glad to see that GW's resident WhoMaster had the same thought :D I wonder what it means for future storytelling though? I seem to recall that the original (real) Cybermen were utterly defeated in the Cyber-wars of the 2500s; their only survivors being the band that were rediscovered and defeated in Tomb of the Cybermen? Admittedly, that'd probably be about 2500 years prior to this episode so that's plenty of time to rebuild.

Anyway, another fantastic episode. I think I preferred the original/rumoured title Demons Run, but that's such a minor issue that it's hardly worth mentioning. I loved this episode, and I can't wait to see how this story continues to play out and how it fits in with the Silence!
edit; oh, something else I forgot to mention! It seems it's now canon that the homo-reptilia of last year's two-parter are indeed called Silurians :)

Sorry, cant edit my post, sorry about the double post
Thats what Im really interested in!
And all these pre 2005 cybermen stories kinda confuse me as I havent seen anthing pre 05 of the old Who

Nth Chevron
June 4th, 2011, 05:56 PM
The young soldier womans name was Lorna Bucket.

Another weird name ..

N.C

knowles2
June 4th, 2011, 05:58 PM
I



So now.............Questions still to be answered:

[QUOTE]Is it in fact River/Melody in the space suit that apparently kills the Doctor?


Seem the most obvious. I believe River siad "of cause not" after firing her weapon at it. Which suggest she remembers that she existed in the suit at some point or she knows she was the person in the suit or knew enough to piece the event together.



What plans do/did the silence have for Melody?


Probably to kill the doctor as she did, out of revenge for allowing Humanity to fight back against them.


Where does the eyepatch lady come into this?

I suspect the silence is just using her. The Doctor does something in the future, which seem to turn a large part of humanity against him and what ever that event is allows the silence to lure eye patch lady into there services.


What exactly is written on The Doctors Cot?

I suspect it said Melody Pond. Which is how the Doctor made the connections that River is Amy Pond daughter before the rest of the gang was told by Song.
Which raises a bunch of questions it self.


Who is the Good man River kills?
I am not sure but I think it looking more and more like it someone we have not met yet. I would fine it a bit boring if it was Rory or the Doctor.



Will the Flesh Doctor come back?
Hope not. As it make a easy and obvious get out clause for saving the doctor. An it already been use twist as major plot points.



Could River still be The Doctor's wife? Do not see why not. But I am suspecting if they do get married it a marriage for convenience to get out of a situation rather than a actual relationalship going on between them that leads to a marriage.


How does papa Rory feel about the Doctor kissing his daughter?

He probably relieved that at least the Doctor is not hitting on his wife.

Blencathra
June 4th, 2011, 06:12 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3167/5786568165_4d1fdcd63c.jpg

I think that about sums up my reaction. :D I loved every single minute of that episode. I'm now trying to decide if this is my favourite Who episode ever. (Or it could be Blink or The Doctor's Wife...)

I loved Rory being amazing. I wonder why the Doctor got him in his roman gear. To unlock his inner gladiator skills I'm guessing. Then River breaking back into prison & ordering breakfast for her usual time. The headless monks were lovely and gruesome. That knot in the neck?! Ick! I thought Lorna Bucket was a super character and I did start to think that she may be another incarnation of River at one point. As for that reveal!! I did have an idea that was what was going to happen but the way it was done was absolutely fantastic!! The Doctor's face was priceless!!

My prediction.

I don't think the little girl in the astonaut suit is River. I think the little girl is the Doctor & River's daughter.

Admiral Mappalazarou
June 4th, 2011, 06:54 PM
Absolutely amazing episode and the revelation of River's identity was such a total shock that most definitely NOT a disappoint!

Looking forward to Autumn and getting the rest of the questions answered in the stories ahead! Cannot wait! Bring it on! :D

Trivia: I think this story marked the first appearance of the Mondasian Cybermen last seen in 1988's Silver Nemesis judging by the fact that they didn't display the Cybus Industries logo on their chest and that their spaceships were highly reminiscent of those used in the 1968 story The Invasion.

Yeah true, although my theory is that these Cybermen are still the remainder of those from the parallel world (mainly because of their original Cybus design compared to the designs of the original Cybermen) but maybe they found the ships/technology of their alternate 'ancestors' in the main universe and updated themselves with both. The removal of the Cybus emblem would make sense as a political thing, as it was merely the symbol of a human company and nothing of importance to them as Cybermen.


In other potentially historical news:
Am I right in thinking that this episode might reveal the Doctor's actual name for the very first time ever? We don't know what it sounds like (yet), but maybe we now know what it looks like. (Assuming that the Gallifreyan writing on the cot spells out the Doctor's name and not some kind of nursery rhyme).
Maybe this is how River knows of the Doctor's name? We know that she can understand and write Gallifreyan. And since it looks like she will be spending/has spent some quality time in this cot...
Come to think about it:
In SitL/FotD did the Tenth Doctor realize River had been in his cot? Or might there still be something else we're missing?

I like this sort of speculation :D Connecting the dots is always so fun


I think the name on the cot is River Song/Melody pond. Which is how the Doctor connected the dots that River was Amy daughter before she spelled it out to Pond. Which means the cot was never the Doctors of cause and we are left with the big question of where it came from. At least that what I reckon anyway.

Actually I'm pretty sure the Doctor read the thing Lorna made for Amy which was lying in the cot at the time, and that's what revealed to him River's identity. As for the Gallifreyan symbols - although we'll mostly likely never know what they translate as - I love the idea that it could be the Doctor's real name (as mentioned by River privately in Series 4).


Fantastic, but disappointed that the whole River thing turned out to be the most obvious solution. I kinda expected more from Moffat, something totally unpredictable and out there, but something that makes perfect sense too.

In the final moments before the reveal a number of things went through my mind, but the main one was that she could have been a regenerated version of Sexy. I was actually kind of glad when this wasn't it though to be honest because it wouldn't really make any sense if the Doctor and the TARDIS are going to (presumably) stick together until the Doctor's lives are all up (and afterwards too probably if the show is still as popular then). I was happy with the reveal though. Yeah we could have guessed it, I suppose, but I didn't. It was a surprise to me, but it makes sense and makes me look back on every scene with River in differently. Because the Doctor has a familly unit in the TARDIS now too.

What gets me is the bond between River and Amy that doesn't seem to be a maternal one, which suggests that either Amy misses out on raising River or that River is exceptionally good at deception (which I guess she does prove to be in some respect by not revealing anything up until this episode).

Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble
June 4th, 2011, 07:19 PM
I liked this episode a lot and I didnt see the twist coming at all to be honest.

Is it me or when Rory met River at the start of ep did he not know who she was?

DigiFluid
June 4th, 2011, 08:36 PM
Wow. Thanks so much for the extremely kind endearment. Very much embarrassed now :o but balanced with an incredible appreciation. Cheers :)
Besides your encyclopedic breadth of Who knowledge, we can all count on you regularly posting Whoniverse news that the rest of us may have missed, and always have promotion for the good doctor in your sig!

So uh...eh mate, IMO it's praise that you've more than earned :)


Yes, I don't think much is known about our universes Cybermen past the 26th century. Presumably there's more Cyber Nomads out there like those seen in 1975's Revenge of the Cybermen so between the 26th century and what I took to be the 50th or 51st centuries in A Good Man Goes to War lord only knows what happened to make the Cybermen a significant power again.
Ah yes, I forgot about Revenge. Stragglers spending a few millennia (I took the Demons Run sequences to be in the 50th/51st-ish century as well) rebuilding would be more than enough time to build up a new armada.

Only for the Doctor to destroy it all again on a whim :lol:


The parallel Cyberman in The Pandorica Opens was certainly different in that it contained more than just the removed brain of a human it contained the remains of an entirely upgraded human.
I found that a little puzzling myself, when we saw that particular Cyberman. I guess in a way though it lines up with what we saw of the conversion process that had been only partially completed on Lisa Hallett in Cyberwoman.


Maybe there was a meeting between the Mondasian Cybermen and the parallel Cybermen and from that their technology and Cyber Conversion techniques took an upgrade?
That'd certainly be an interesting take! I'm not sure how well a story like that would appeal to viewers of the show unfamiliar with Seasons 1-26, but it might be an interesting avenue for a novel or audio drama to explore.


Yes, indeedy. I'm looking forward to seeing where the Silence come in to this story too. Problem is that we'll all forget about it once we see it. ;)
:p


Were they not called Silurians in The Hungry Earth at all? :S I thought they had been. I have a homo-reptilia action figure from that story and its packaging has it marked up as a Silurian.
If I'm not mistaken, they weren't ever actually called Silurians in The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood. I vaguely remember the word being mentioned as someone he had encountered in the past, but IIRC the dialogue was very particular in identifying them as "homo reptilia" rather than Silurians.

Hardly relevant now though, now that they've been identified as such on screen :)



And all these pre 2005 cybermen stories kinda confuse me as I havent seen anthing pre 05 of the old Who

Crash course in our universe's Cybermen:
First of all, forget everything about them coming from Cybus Industries on a parallel universe Earth. The history of our universe's Cybermen (approached chronologically, rather than from the Doctor's POV) runs something like this....

Billions of years ago, Earth had a twin planet called Mondas. It was populated for a time by a race of near-humans. Over an indeterminate (but presumably LONG) length of time, Mondas began to drift away toward the far edge of the solar system. As this went on, the Mondasians began to transform themselves into cyborgs in order to survive. Eventually, such transformations became mandatory and thus were born the Cybermen.

It's never been made clear for how long they drifted in deep space like this, but evidently it was long enough that their entire population was forcibly converted into Cybermen and all emotion was purged as a weakness. At some point during this period, the Cybermen installed a drive system on Mondas in order to move the whole planet like a starship.

In the late 60s/early 70s (UNIT dating controversy (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/UNIT_dating_controversy)), a faction of Cybermen established a base on the dark side of Earth's moon in order to stage an invasion of Earth. They were defeated by the Second Doctor.

With the population of the Cyberman race ever diminishing, they decided to return to the place of their ancestral origin with Mondas--Earth. Their plan was to drain Earth of all its energy in order to fuel their reserves, as well as finding an ample supply of humans for Cyber-conversion. This plot was foiled by the First Doctor in 1986, and in the process, destroyed Mondas completely.

With no homeworld, the Cybermen factionalized into various groups with their own schemes and plots being (of course) defeated by various incarnations of the Doctor over the next five hundred years.

The conflict reached its peak, however, in the 2500s in what became known as the Cyber-wars. The Cybermen had become a military force to be reckoned with in the galaxy. It took the combined efforts of the Earth empire, some galactic allies, and the Doctor to stop them from capturing or destroying Earth. Incidentally, the averting of this final attack by the Cybermen caused their freighter to be thrown back in time 65 million years; the impact causing the dinosaur extinction.

With this final victory over them, the Cybermen were finally defeated. And with the exception of a few straggler groups popping up now and again, largely passed into legend.

Spimman
June 4th, 2011, 09:21 PM
Just watched the awesome episode, what a cliff hanger!!! Although I expected them to stop the episode right before the River Pond revelation, so I was glad they didn't.

I saw a few people call River a human\time lord hybrid but is that true? Evidently Time Lords evolved over millennia of exposure to the Vortex and River was conceived by 2 humans while traveling through the vortex in a shielded TARDIS. So would it be better to say she is a human that has taken one evolutionary step in the direction of the time lords?

Cold Fuzz
June 4th, 2011, 11:13 PM
Brilliant episode, especially Rory's fiery moments. I knew he could fight as he retained all of his memories of being a centurion. I'm glad we actually got a chance to see it. Defending his daughter would definitely bring out the fight in him. :D

I had seen the previews for a long time, where River says, "He'll rise higher than ever before, and then fall so much further..." I recall a period in my life 4 years ago when I did just that: Achieve things I could never have dreamed possible... and then a short time later fall more than I ever had before. That's a unique and harrowing experience... and Matt Smith got the terrible pain and emotion of it exactly right. Though the episode was brilliant on so many levels, at the same time, God this episode really hurt for me to watch. :(

Edit: Assuming that the episode takes place after the Byzantium crash on an objective timeline, I find it a little strange that the Clerics have taken a stand against the Doctor when he helped them against the Weeping Angels. Something similar happened with the Atraxi: The Doctor helped them, and then, for some irrational reason, they got pissed at him. :rolleyes:


Just watched the awesome episode, what a cliff hanger!!! Although I expected them to stop the episode right before the River Pond revelation, so I was glad they didn't.

I saw a few people call River a human\time lord hybrid but is that true? Evidently Time Lords evolved over millennia of exposure to the Vortex and River was conceived by 2 humans while traveling through the vortex in a shielded TARDIS. So would it be better to say she is a human that has taken one evolutionary step in the direction of the time lords?

I don't know if she took an evolutionary step per se. The Doctor has never had two humans conceive a baby aboard the TARDIS before. In fact, I think the Time Lords have never faced a similar situation in their past.

rosey_angel
June 5th, 2011, 12:38 AM
Oh...my...gah!!!

So, um, holy hannah what the heck was that. I'm so in awe, they did such a great job. I love all of the addition of characters that we might be meeting in the future. I love kick a$$ Rory, like I"m seriously in love, like I got my partner a fez for his birthday and now i"m considering getting him a centurion costume. That's how much I love BadA$$ Rory.
As for the river/melody storyline, I kind of saw it coming, but i did see it coming along with a dozen and a half other possibilities so i can't really call a claim to having seen it coming. i tell you though, when she was showing him the crib my brain went "OMG what is she... his mother no ew, his sister no ew, his childhood friend, what?"

rosey_angel
June 5th, 2011, 12:47 AM
Brilliant episode, especially Rory's fiery moments. I knew he could fight as he retained all of his memories of being a centurion. I'm glad we actually got a chance to see it. Defending his daughter would definitely bring out the fight in him. :D

I had seen the previews for a long time, where River says, "He'll rise higher than ever before, and then fall so much further..." I recall a period in my life 4 years ago when I did just that: Achieve things I could never have dreamed possible... and then a short time later fall more than I ever had before. That's a unique and harrowing experience... and Matt Smith got the terrible pain and emotion of it exactly right. Though the episode was brilliant on so many levels, at the same time, God this episode really hurt for me to watch. :(

Edit: Assuming that the episode takes place after the Byzantium crash on an objective timeline, I find it a little strange that the Clerics have taken a stand against the Doctor when he helped them against the Weeping Angels. Something similar happened with the Atraxi: The Doctor helped them, and then, for some irrational reason, they got pissed at him. :rolleyes:



I don't know if she took an evolutionary step per se. The Doctor has never had two humans conceive a baby aboard the TARDIS before. In fact, I think the Time Lords have never faced a similar situation in their past.

i watched this ep for a second time a short time ago and I heard something that I missed the first time; when the Doctor and the Siluran (sp?) woman were talking about it the Doctor said that one can't just make a Time Lord, and the Siluran said "you gave them a good head start". my thought is that melody's dna was in flux and the eye patch woman and her scientists messed about with it for the month that they've had her

Sealurk
June 5th, 2011, 01:10 AM
I loved the inclusion of Madame Vastra, even if I did mistakenly think she was a revived and reformed Restac (I heard "angry", "avenge dead sister" and saw Neve McIntosh, so I put two and two together and came up with five), and I must say I love the idea that the Doctor has already had adventures with her off-screen. Anybody else think this is a set up for a series seven/thirty-three/fnarg-plus-two episode with her and Jenny (obviously not that Jenny...right? Makes me wonder why the Moff picked that name) that maybe touches upon or even shows past events with the Doctor first encountering Vastra?

Rory goes from awesome to awesomer to awesomest, and seeing him in action just proves why the Last Centurion became such a powerful mythical figure in the post-Pandorica, pre-reboot universe. He's been one of the most enjoyable and endearing aspects of the Eleventh Doctor's episodes right the way from Eleventh Hour, not least because of his rather considerable development as a character (something I think Amy is actually rather lacking), and he just gets better with each showing. Kudos to the Moff and Arthur Darvill.

Silurians and a Sontaran on the Doctor's side. Excellent. I always thought that the Sontarans being such honour-bound creatures meant that they could also make surprisingly good (if haughty) allies. I particularly loved Commander Strax's heartfelt, genuine, respectful, honourable and ever so slightly scary farewells. I think they summed up the Sontaran mindset quite well.

The Moff's talent for lyrical, poetic naming comes through quite well, though Melody Pond was a tad too obvious. However, Demon's Run was a superb name for a place, only made better by Dorium revealing the reason behind the name. I love that line.

Anybody else wonder if River and Rory briefly talking about two Doctors and that being a whole other birthday is setting up a future episode, perhaps a special episode...perhaps a very special episode in and about November 2013? :D

Loved it. What it lacked in story it more than made up for in spectacle, brilliant lines and sheer, unadulterated epic atmosphere.


Edit: Assuming that the episode takes place after the Byzantium crash on an objective timeline, I find it a little strange that the Clerics have taken a stand against the Doctor when he helped them against the Weeping Angels. Something similar happened with the Atraxi: The Doctor helped them, and then, for some irrational reason, they got pissed at him. :rolleyes:

I wonder if it does take place after the Byzantium - did anybody catch any dates or references to prove/disprove this? Could it be that because of the events of AGMGTW and the Battle of Demon's Run, the Clerics at the time of the Byzantium are much more amenable to and respectful of the Doctor? I.e. he gave them a bloodless but still 'whopping great kick up the backside' and they rather intelligently start playing nice with him? I'm really not sure now. I'll have to watch the episode for a third time...and a fourth, fifth, seventeenth...

Nth Chevron
June 5th, 2011, 01:40 AM
I think they summoned the clerics to the Byzantium to see if the Angels would be any match against the Doctor, an army of Angels and he walked out of the wreckage so they had to try something else.

Thats maybe when they first discovered Amy was his companion

N.C

Blencathra
June 5th, 2011, 03:16 AM
Here's an interesting thing found by someone on LJ.

On 9th January 1995 Steven Moffat wrote this

https://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.drwho/browse_thread/thread/7cd734f99a62ae98/c845f05e9b213df9?lnk=st&q&hl=en&pli=1#c845f05e9b213df9


Here's a particularly stupid theory. If we take "The Doctor" to
be the Doctor's name - even if it is in the form of a title no
doubt meaning something deep and Gallifreyan - perhaps our
earthly use of the word "doctor" meaning healer or wise man is
direct result of the Doctor's multiple interventions in our
history as a healer and wise man. In other words, we got it from
him. This is a very silly idea and I'm consequently rather proud
of it.

So sixteen years later he eventually managed to use it. Amazing!

MattSilver 3k
June 5th, 2011, 03:30 AM
Here's an interesting thing found by someone on LJ.

On 9th January 1995 Steven Moffat wrote this

https://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.drwho/browse_thread/thread/7cd734f99a62ae98/c845f05e9b213df9?lnk=st&q&hl=en&pli=1#c845f05e9b213df9

So sixteen years later he eventually managed to use it. Amazing!

God, that man. Christ. He's what a young storyteller should aspire to be. Brilliant.

Also, you know what else will be brilliant? This year's soundtrack. Rock'n'roll.

Alan
June 5th, 2011, 05:25 AM
Besides your encyclopedic breadth of Who knowledge, we can all count on you regularly posting Whoniverse news that the rest of us may have missed, and always have promotion for the good doctor in your sig!

So uh...eh mate, IMO it's praise that you've more than earned :)

Thank you. I'll just keep doing what I've been doing and keep rocking and promoting the Whoniverse to the best of my ability. :)


Ah yes, I forgot about Revenge. Stragglers spending a few millennia (I took the Demons Run sequences to be in the 50th/51st-ish century as well) rebuilding would be more than enough time to build up a new armada.

Only for the Doctor to destroy it all again on a whim :lol:

:lol: Indeed.


I found that a little puzzling myself, when we saw that particular Cyberman. I guess in a way though it lines up with what we saw of the conversion process that had been only partially completed on Lisa Hallett in Cyberwoman.

Yes. I suppose it also comes down to also how desperate the Cybermen are in need for troops. There may be more Cybermen like the one in The Pandorica Opens with more than just brain matter inside out there but I doubt there's any more variants like Lisa Hallett. I'm sure even Lisa's Cyber Conversion wouldn't have been allowed to leave the upgrade until everything flesh was gone from sight.


That'd certainly be an interesting take! I'm not sure how well a story like that would appeal to viewers of the show unfamiliar with Seasons 1-26, but it might be an interesting avenue for a novel or audio drama to explore.

Perhaps. Or maybe just the viewer's imagination to fill in the blanks?


:p

Heehee. :D


If I'm not mistaken, they weren't ever actually called Silurians in The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood. I vaguely remember the word being mentioned as someone he had encountered in the past, but IIRC the dialogue was very particular in identifying them as "homo reptilia" rather than Silurians.

Hardly relevant now though, now that they've been identified as such on screen :)

Just been watching The Hungry Earth and the Doctor does indeed refer to them as Silurians. It happens around 35 minutes in to it. He says:


They're not aliens! They're Earth...liens! Once known as the Silurian race, or, some would argue, Eocenes, or Homo-Reptilia.

:o

GodAtum
June 5th, 2011, 08:26 AM
The ending was great, I did think there where three options: River being the Doctor's wife, mother or daughter.

I'm trying to remember when River first met Amy, did she recognise her?

Also, what about the Doctor's other daughter? Have they forgotton about her?

Teddybrown
June 5th, 2011, 08:48 AM
Crash course in our universe's Cybermen:
First of all, forget everything about them coming from Cybus Industries on a parallel universe Earth. The history of our universe's Cybermen (approached chronologically, rather than from the Doctor's POV) runs something like this....

Billions of years ago, Earth had a twin planet called Mondas. It was populated for a time by a race of near-humans. Over an indeterminate (but presumably LONG) length of time, Mondas began to drift away toward the far edge of the solar system. As this went on, the Mondasians began to transform themselves into cyborgs in order to survive. Eventually, such transformations became mandatory and thus were born the Cybermen.

It's never been made clear for how long they drifted in deep space like this, but evidently it was long enough that their entire population was forcibly converted into Cybermen and all emotion was purged as a weakness. At some point during this period, the Cybermen installed a drive system on Mondas in order to move the whole planet like a starship.

In the late 60s/early 70s (UNIT dating controversy (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/UNIT_dating_controversy)), a faction of Cybermen established a base on the dark side of Earth's moon in order to stage an invasion of Earth. They were defeated by the Second Doctor.

With the population of the Cyberman race ever diminishing, they decided to return to the place of their ancestral origin with Mondas--Earth. Their plan was to drain Earth of all its energy in order to fuel their reserves, as well as finding an ample supply of humans for Cyber-conversion. This plot was foiled by the First Doctor in 1986, and in the process, destroyed Mondas completely.

With no homeworld, the Cybermen factionalized into various groups with their own schemes and plots being (of course) defeated by various incarnations of the Doctor over the next five hundred years.

The conflict reached its peak, however, in the 2500s in what became known as the Cyber-wars. The Cybermen had become a military force to be reckoned with in the galaxy. It took the combined efforts of the Earth empire, some galactic allies, and the Doctor to stop them from capturing or destroying Earth. Incidentally, the averting of this final attack by the Cybermen caused their freighter to be thrown back in time 65 million years; the impact causing the dinosaur extinction.

With this final victory over them, the Cybermen were finally defeated. And with the exception of a few straggler groups popping up now and again, largely passed into legend.

Thanks for that, I knew a small ammount relating to the cybermen from reading books and stuff, but have never watched any old Who, something that I wish I could get in to...
I knew the Cybus Industries Cybermen were a reboot, just didnt really know what happened to the old Who Cybermen and whether they were still around or not...
Thanks for that info =)

@ Sealurk

Silurians and a Sontaran on the Doctor's side. Excellent. I always thought that the Sontarans being such honour-bound creatures meant that they could also make surprisingly good (if haughty) allies. I particularly loved Commander Strax's heartfelt, genuine, respectful, honourable and ever so slightly scary farewells. I think they summed up the Sontaran mindset quite well.


I loved Commander Strax aswell, the way they made him a nurse as punishment, but by the end, he accepted himself as a nurse, most of his lines made me chuckle, especially his goodbyes as you mentioned and his comment about breastfeeding. His comment about death being honourable but not how he imagined also made me laugh because they always say death is honourable, but once he was dieing, he didnt like it. He was a great character and I didnt want him to die at the end...

PMN1
June 5th, 2011, 08:53 AM
I think he means the skeletal hand clutching the fading sonic screwdriver. It's the teaser (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G47Er3hbBaw) after the episode.


We know the Tardis can make new Sonics and River's was left at the Library....was it a Sonic, could it have been a Laser Screwdriver?

P-90_177
June 5th, 2011, 08:58 AM
We know the Tardis can make new Sonics and River's was left at the Library....was it a Sonic, could it have been a Laser Screwdriver?

It was definately The Doctors current sonic.

SGalisa
June 5th, 2011, 09:40 AM
I'm trying to remember when River first met Amy, did she recognise her?

No. Neither of them knew each other. Or at least River gave a good indication that she didn't know Amy, or was hiding it from her with those *Spoilers* lines... (When Amy first asked River if she was the Doctor's wife, or something... River just smiled, and the subject sort of got interrupted somehow. Same thing when Amy asked the Doctor if River was his wife... no clear enough, straight answer there, either.)

EDIT: Almost forgot -- the Silence creatures have established having the ability to wipe out certain memories from everyone. And they may have wiped out River's ability to remember her parents being exactly Amy and Rory, or have had a thought planted into her head by the Silence creatures to think her parents were someone else. So, this may be another reason why River has been silent in recognizing her own parents. Plus, if River was taken away as an infant, and put under foster care, it's doubtful she would know who her own mom was...?? Especially, if there were no photos to remember mom and dad with..??


I saw a few people call River a human\time lord hybrid but is that true? Evidently Time Lords evolved over millennia of exposure to the Vortex and River was conceived by 2 humans while traveling through the vortex in a shielded TARDIS. So would it be better to say she is a human that has taken one evolutionary step in the direction of the time lords?


I don't know if she took an evolutionary step per se. The Doctor has never had two humans conceive a baby aboard the TARDIS before. In fact, I think the Time Lords have never faced a similar situation in their past.

Taking this in reverse order. Including ALL of *classic* DOCTOR WHO eps, it's never been told on TV that the Doctor has ever had babies conceived or born from anyone traveling in the TARDIS. Amy and Rory are the first honeymoon suite / married couple where making a family story has come into being. As for speculation to what has gone on within the TARDIS is another matter; but Amy and Rory are the first couple to have a child conceived while either in transit on the TARDIS or after their journeys (perhaps somewhere between the Big Bang wedding night and The Impossible Astronaut stories).

As for River being part Time Lord -- medical science, even in Whovian land translates (so far that) she would require part of the Doctor's DNA to be that. So, if River is the little girl who regenerated, or River can regenerate to whatever degree, it's more likely she's been gifted with some of the TARDIS energy matrix itself. Perhaps a gift from the TARDIS for saying thank you to Amy for bringing the TARDIS back on reboot after the BIG BANG 2 occurred...?

Or, as the more common theory goes, just a byproduct of what happens when traveling with the TARDIS. Amy and Rory both became *injected* with the TARDIS' translator, as they were able to immediately understand most of the lifeforms speaking around them. I'm only guessing that there's a spark of TARDIS energy within them now, because of that new communication ability, being travelers with the Doctor. But that's only a guess.

Personally, I like the other answer better -- that River got infused with TARDIS energy (when Amy conceived her) and thus now has gained the ability to regenerate -- which is similar to, but not the same as being a Time Lord. Time Lords have 2 hearts and *that* is primarily what distingushes a Time Lord apart from a Human type of being. River only has one heart, as far as I know. And the Doctor has never sensed her presence as a Time Lord, even with an inkling of Time Lord DNA in her, he should be able to do that, and so far he has not, or at least has not revealed to anyone of having that sort of honing in--telepathic sensing ability with River Song. ;)

Control_Chair
June 5th, 2011, 11:35 AM
Great episode, loved the ending and hope the second half of the season explains more about the Silence and the how the young River winds up on Earth in 1969. One thing I didn’t understand though was how the headless monks were able to chant :confused:

Pharaoh Atem
June 5th, 2011, 11:41 AM
It was definately The Doctors current sonic.

but anyone can use it.

LoneStar1836
June 5th, 2011, 11:56 AM
Great episode.

I kind of figured River would turn out to be Amy's daughter after it turned out to be a child in the astronaut suit (as well as them sharing names of bodies of water)...as think that River is in prison for having killed the Doctor since their timelines were in reverse of each other (which I have loved btw since 10th first met her). So while that wasn't a shock but rather confirmation, still made for a great episode. The baby liquifying was still a surprise. :D

Ugh that have to wait till the Fall for the rest....

wise one
June 5th, 2011, 12:13 PM
well maybe river does kill the doctor

a good man goes to war

river killing a good man......

Sealurk
June 5th, 2011, 12:28 PM
Having just watched every existing episode of series six back to back (!), there are a few things that show up and make a lot more sense in light of AGMGTW.

Plenty of references to babies and parents, at least one per episode I think.

In The Impossible Astronaut, there is a dialogue that goes "Life signs?" "None that are showing up" "Those are the worst kind..." that has a new meaning after the Headless Monks.

River's line in Day of the Moon after taking out a room full of Silence ("My old fella didn't see that, did he? He gets ever so cross") while Rory stands behind her means a lot more now. He's a nurse and he doesn't like seeing people die, so it could just as well be him as the Doctor.

On a different note, did anybody else notice the extra TARDIS sounds during the starting credits of this episode? I couldn't hear them in any other credit sequence, so I'm not sure what's up with that.

Loving the music in this series. There's one particular piece, played when we see the little girl regenerate in DotM and I think when River is telling the Doctor who she is in AGMGTW that's particularly good (I don't know whether to call it Melody's Song, or Song's Melody :D).

Draygon
June 5th, 2011, 12:45 PM
well maybe river does kill the doctor

a good man goes to war

river killing a good man......
Mind you, there is one thing the Doctor points out...
"Good men doesn't need rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many."

LoneStar1836
June 5th, 2011, 12:59 PM
Mind you, there is one thing the Doctor points out...
"Good men doesn't need rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many."The Doctor may not think of himself as a good man, but that doesn't mean that River doesn't see him that way.

Draygon
June 5th, 2011, 01:05 PM
The Doctor may not think of himself as a good man, but that doesn't mean that River doesn't see him that way.

A true point, and there are many who would and do agree.

Shame there is equal if not more in the universe who very much disagree :P

Sealurk
June 5th, 2011, 01:12 PM
There's something I didn't notice first time - when Dorium approaches the Headless Monks and pays the price, the next shot of the monks shows his headless body walking with them.

Teddybrown
June 5th, 2011, 03:04 PM
There's something I didn't notice first time - when Dorium approaches the Headless Monks and pays the price, the next shot of the monks shows his headless body walking with them.

I noticed that when I was watching it, seems when they cut your head off, you become a headless monk?
Small spoiler for episode 13
Doriums in episode 13 though apparently

Im suprised no one has mentioned the small appearance of the Judoon
Was nice to see them again, abeit for a few seconds...

Matt G
June 5th, 2011, 03:45 PM
1. Rory with the Cybermen - holy Christ.

2. A rather eclectic bunch of allies we have here, like how they kept popping up.

3. The Doctor being the term for "warrior?"

4. Aha, so that's what the TARDIS was on about!

Very cool stuff!

Galileo_Galilee
June 5th, 2011, 04:35 PM
Okay, this poses a whole other set of problems.

If River really is Amy's daughter, and she is half Time Lord, and I hope i'm not stating the painfully obvious here, but that means that River would also be The Doctor's second daughter. Because he is presumably the only free roaming Galifreyan in the entire universe. And barring anything else, that means Amy did give him at least one night to remember.

And it would have to be the Doctor because if it's not him then that means Amy slept with another roaming Time Lord out there, some where. Which has yet to be documented.

And that means River can not be The Doctor's wife. because then that would be marrying your own daughter.

So, ew.



The only other possibility is through some sort of genetic engineering of some sort, like the first Daughter.

But even with that, it would still be very icky, because River would still be the Doctor's daughter. Because at least as far as I know, the only source of Galifreyan DNA would be The Doctor.

Sealurk
June 5th, 2011, 04:39 PM
I think it is stated or implied that River is biologically the daughter of Rory and Amy, but that her non-human aspects come from being conceived in the TARDIS while in the Time Vortex.

So I don't think she has any direct genetic link to the Doctor, just a few biological similarities as a result of both being creatures of time.

Galileo_Galilee
June 5th, 2011, 04:44 PM
I really hope that's case, but I'm afraid we'll just have to wait and see.

Pharaoh Atem
June 5th, 2011, 04:45 PM
I think it is stated or implied that River is biologically the daughter of Rory and Amy, but that her non-human aspects come from being conceived in the TARDIS while in the Time Vortex.

So I don't think she has any direct genetic link to the Doctor, just a few biological similarities as a result of both being creatures of time.
that's how i'm accepting it till moffat says otherwise.

Alan
June 5th, 2011, 05:13 PM
I think its safe to say that Amy and Rory are River Song's parents. River even acknowledges them as her parents. As for the Doctor's part in River's background you need to bring the TARDIS in to the equation:

Anyone that travels in the TARDIS gets very gently irradiated by Artron Energy. The Doctor and all Time Lords have Artron Energy within them and one Time Lord once said that the Doctor had unusually high Artron Energy levels within him. Artron Energy is essential in the relationship between travellers and a TARDIS but it is never explained why. Also, Artron Energy altered and enhanced human antibodies which made the human immune system more resistant in fighting against diseases.

What Artron Energy would do to someone conceived by two humans within a TARDIS travelling through the space/time vortex who have both already been irradiated by Artron Energy remains to be seen. From the story told by A Good Man Goes to War, it would seem that it would mutate the genes of a human. They might not be mutated enough to turn a baby conceived by two humans in to a Time Lord...but enough to make it a lot more than human.

Galileo_Galilee
June 5th, 2011, 05:17 PM
You know, this could be a round about way of telling the origins of the Galifreyans and how they became Time Lords. In the distance past they found this unusual energy and learned to ahrness it....

Alan
June 5th, 2011, 05:24 PM
I think its safe to say that Amy and Rory are River Song's parents. River even acknowledges them as her parents. As for the Doctor's part in River's background you need to bring the TARDIS in to the equation:

Anyone that travels in the TARDIS gets very gently irradiated by Artron Energy. The Doctor and all Time Lords have Artron Energy within them and one Time Lord once said that the Doctor had unusually high Artron Energy levels within him. Artron Energy is essential in the relationship between travellers and a TARDIS but it is never explained why. Also, Artron Energy altered and enhanced human antibodies which made the human immune system more resistant in fighting against diseases.

What Artron Energy would do to someone conceived by two humans within a TARDIS travelling through the space/time vortex who have both already been irradiated by Artron Energy remains to be seen. From the story told by A Good Man Goes to War, it would seem that it would mutate the genes of a human. They might not be mutated enough to turn a baby conceived by two humans in to a Time Lord...but enough to make it a lot more than human.

rosey_angel
June 5th, 2011, 07:13 PM
Okay, this poses a whole other set of problems.

If River really is Amy's daughter, and she is half Time Lord, and I hope i'm not stating the painfully obvious here, but that means that River would also be The Doctor's second daughter. Because he is presumably the only free roaming Galifreyan in the entire universe. And barring anything else, that means Amy did give him at least one night to remember.

And it would have to be the Doctor because if it's not him then that means Amy slept with another roaming Time Lord out there, some where. Which has yet to be documented.

And that means River can not be The Doctor's wife. because then that would be marrying your own daughter.

So, ew.



The only other possibility is through some sort of genetic engineering of some sort, like the first Daughter.

But even with that, it would still be very icky, because River would still be the Doctor's daughter. Because at least as far as I know, the only source of Galifreyan DNA would be The Doctor.


I think it is stated or implied that River is biologically the daughter of Rory and Amy, but that her non-human aspects come from being conceived in the TARDIS while in the Time Vortex.

So I don't think she has any direct genetic link to the Doctor, just a few biological similarities as a result of both being creatures of time.


that's how i'm accepting it till moffat says otherwise.


I think its safe to say that Amy and Rory are River Song's parents. River even acknowledges them as her parents. As for the Doctor's part in River's background you need to bring the TARDIS in to the equation:

Anyone that travels in the TARDIS gets very gently irradiated by Artron Energy. The Doctor and all Time Lords have Artron Energy within them and one Time Lord once said that the Doctor had unusually high Artron Energy levels within him. Artron Energy is essential in the relationship between travellers and a TARDIS but it is never explained why. Also, Artron Energy altered and enhanced human antibodies which made the human immune system more resistant in fighting against diseases.

What Artron Energy would do to someone conceived by two humans within a TARDIS travelling through the space/time vortex who have both already been irradiated by Artron Energy remains to be seen. From the story told by A Good Man Goes to War, it would seem that it would mutate the genes of a human. They might not be mutated enough to turn a baby conceived by two humans in to a Time Lord...but enough to make it a lot more than human.

the Doctor seems to think that it's not enough to create a TIme Lord, and the Siluran woman said that it was enough to give "them" a head start. That gives me the impression that whatever being conceived in the TARDIS did to Melody/River, it didn't give her her Time Lordyness it just opened her DNA up enough so she could be turned into a Time Lord. But that's just me

Galileo_Galilee
June 5th, 2011, 07:54 PM
I can foresee the next meta plot. Humans become the next Time lords.

Why should Galifreyans have an exclusive club on it?

kcatlantis
June 5th, 2011, 07:58 PM
If River kills the Doctor, how are they going to undue that? Is he in a flesh avatar?

Pharaoh Atem
June 5th, 2011, 08:29 PM
I can foresee the next meta plot. Humans become the next Time lords.

Why should Galifreyans have an exclusive club on it?

i've been saying for a while i think moffats working up to restoring the timelords

SGalisa
June 5th, 2011, 09:58 PM
I think its safe to say that Amy and Rory are River Song's parents. River even acknowledges them as her parents. As for the Doctor's part in River's background you need to bring the TARDIS in to the equation:

Anyone that travels in the TARDIS gets very gently irradiated by Artron Energy. The Doctor and all Time Lords have Artron Energy within them and one Time Lord once said that the Doctor had unusually high Artron Energy levels within him. Artron Energy is essential in the relationship between travellers and a TARDIS but it is never explained why. Also, Artron Energy altered and enhanced human antibodies which made the human immune system more resistant in fighting against diseases.

What Artron Energy would do to someone conceived by two humans within a TARDIS travelling through the space/time vortex who have both already been irradiated by Artron Energy remains to be seen. From the story told by A Good Man Goes to War, it would seem that it would mutate the genes of a human. They might not be mutated enough to turn a baby conceived by two humans in to a Time Lord...but enough to make it a lot more than human.

rather than mutated genes ... it's more of *enhanced* genetics (same thing, but a fancier way of saying it with a *positive* twist attached), as the Doctor *might* say. :D

tardis -- wikia -- dot--com reinforces and acknowledges the *Artron Energy* theory for River to contain some Time-Lord like DNA within her as DW canon. But it did not state she had any DNA in her from the Doctor, so she is not the Doctor's daughter -- no way, no how, unless a future episode determines it otherwise (which is doubtful). Paraphrasing, it basically stated Amy and Rory's exposure to the time vortex may have influenced River's genetic make-up (and given her a stronger dosage of artron energy than what her parents might now contain).
The conversation between the Doctor and the Silurian woman is the basis of that canon regarding exposure to the Time Vortex.
Now, whether that Time Vortex is the one inside and part of the TARDIS or outside in the vortex time stream is yet to be understood.


If River kills the Doctor, how are they going to undue that? Is he in a flesh avatar?

I saw The Almost People again. The Doctor told his other self that *he* (the flesh version) just might survive the meltdown process and live again. That merely gave possibility to the idea that the Doctor who dies, is in fact, the duplicate Doctor and not the original. Also, the way he is given a funeral pyre makes me wonder if --again-- if it was the "flesh" duplicate Doctor, his goo might settle to the bottom of the lake-bed, and thus be capable of being processed back together again..? thus, we'll end up with 2 roaming Doctors on the loose again??

will we ever find out??
the intrigue deepens.. ;)

GodAtum
June 5th, 2011, 10:45 PM
Slightly OT, are they both keeping secrets from one another. The Doctor knows that River is doing to die and River knows the Doctor is going to die but they are keeping that secrets?

It's funny that the eye patch lady (or whoever is behind trying to kill the Doctor) thinks that they can succeed. I mean even an alliance of the doctor's enemies could not defeat him!

wwlh
June 6th, 2011, 05:31 AM
As far as River "acting" as if she didn't know that Amy and Rory are her parents...I think she was just far more used to the idea than we expected. Remember...she is from the Doctor's future. When Rory showed up at the beginning of the episode he apologizes to her if they hadn't met yet because the whole "timeline" thing confuses him.. and she says that, yes, they have met..and you can see she is clearly moved by seeing him. I just think that in River's future/Amy and Rory's past - she is more able to control her emotions about being around them..

Spimman
June 6th, 2011, 09:38 AM
My head is still spinning from this episode, what a great mid-season finale. I'm so glad it is mid-season and we'll get to see it play out not too long from now!

Replicator Todd
June 6th, 2011, 02:00 PM
This episode was so amazing I cannot possibly begin to express my thoughts. My eyes were wide and happy the entire time. I could not stop smiling!

Kamosis
June 6th, 2011, 05:09 PM
Wow! Just wow! That was amazing!

Until the last moment I'm was thinking: River is the doctor mom? The cousin? The daughter? His lawyer?

Just one thought: What separates humans from Time Lords are that Artron energy, right? So what if the time lords are in fact humans that landed in this weird planet full of weird energy and ended mutated by it?

Admiral Mappalazarou
June 6th, 2011, 05:51 PM
Wow! Just wow! That was amazing!

Until the last moment I'm was thinking: River is the doctor mom? The cousin? The daughter? His lawyer?

Just one thought: What separates humans from Time Lords are that Artron energy, right? So what if the time lords are in fact humans that landed in this weird planet full of weird energy and ended mutated by it?

It's good speculation but I doubt it's anything they'll cover in the series. I'm happy that the place of the Time Lords is in legend and myths now. Gives the universe so much history.

Nth Chevron
June 7th, 2011, 08:48 AM
Thats the one thing ive always disliked about Doctor Who, they've always skated over evolution.

Apart from a few stories here and there, theres been almost no change to humans from Roman times upto 100 trillion years, now with constantly changing environmental factors, not counting technology and time energy, there could have bee room for some improvement, but nothing :(

Now we find over billions of years Time-Lords became their namesake.

N.C

DigiFluid
June 7th, 2011, 03:57 PM
Thats the one thing ive always disliked about Doctor Who, they've always skated over evolution.

Apart from a few stories here and there, theres been almost no change to humans from Roman times upto 100 trillion years,
False. We saw primitive cavemen humans in An Unearthly Child, modern humans (obviously), machinery-enhanced trans-humans in the episodes set in 200000 and 200100, learned from Cassandra that there were few to no Humans left who hadn't mingled with alien races around the year 5 billion, and in Utopia the Doctor stated that had evolved into gases and energy a few times but always returned to the same basic form.


Unrelated....for anyone wondering what Madame Vastra (the Silurian) looks like under those scales...
http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/4782/19nevemcintosh.jpg

Giggity :D

Alan
June 7th, 2011, 04:21 PM
False. We saw primitive cavemen humans in An Unearthly Child, modern humans (obviously), machinery-enhanced trans-humans in the episodes set in 200000 and 200100, learned from Cassandra that there were few to no Humans left who hadn't mingled with alien races around the year 5 billion, and in Utopia the Doctor stated that had evolved into gases and energy a few times but always returned to the same basic form.


Unrelated....for anyone wondering what Madame Vastra (the Silurian) looks like under those scales...
http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/4782/19nevemcintosh.jpg

Giggity :D

Gorgeous. :D

One of the many thoughts that came to mind whilst I watched A Good Man Goes to War was that I think I'd like to see a spin-off show featuring Vastra and Jenny investigating odd goings on in Victorian London. Obviously it would have to be set sometime prior to 1879 otherwise you'd just be asking yourself "well where's the Torchwood Institute whilst all this is going on?". I think it'd be quite interesting. :cool:

Nth Chevron
June 7th, 2011, 04:55 PM
Utopia the Doctor stated that had evolved into gases and energy a few times but always returned to the same basic form.

have to admit, i never actually heard him say that in the ep, but then again my hearing isnt that great anymore.

As for the others i probably didnt remember them.

What i was getting at mroe though, was that we hear of what Time-Lords are compared to humans etc etc a few times a season, weve never seen or heard of anything human becoming a super force for good, which is almost the silently accepted norm that "humans will become their manifest destiny"

In Stargate we were, in Star Trek we were, in Star wars it was 50/50, BSg was kept at OUR current level of evolution (socially) etc etc

I just thought with the Doctor raising us up above his shoulders every-time theres something to be remarked upon about us, they might have shown WHY the Doctor has such faith in us.

N.C

DigiFluid
June 7th, 2011, 04:57 PM
What i was getting at mroe though, was that we hear of what Time-Lords are compared to humans etc etc a few times a season, weve never seen or heard of anything human becoming a super force for good, which is almost the silently accepted norm that "humans will become their manifest destiny"

We do know that on at least four occasions, Earth expands into "great and bountiful" empires. Presumably, with a descriptor like that, we become a force for good.

Sealurk
June 7th, 2011, 05:04 PM
We do know that on at least four occasions, Earth expands into "great and bountiful" empires. Presumably, with a descriptor like that, we become a force for good.

Personally, with a name like Great and Bountiful Human Empire, I always thought it was somewhat contradictory, in much the way that most nation's calling themselves the People's this or the Democratic that generally...aren't. :D

P-90_177
June 7th, 2011, 05:19 PM
have to admit, i never actually heard him say that in the ep, but then again my hearing isnt that great anymore.

As for the others i probably didnt remember them.

What i was getting at mroe though, was that we hear of what Time-Lords are compared to humans etc etc a few times a season, weve never seen or heard of anything human becoming a super force for good, which is almost the silently accepted norm that "humans will become their manifest destiny"

In Stargate we were, in Star Trek we were, in Star wars it was 50/50, BSg was kept at OUR current level of evolution (socially) etc etc

I just thought with the Doctor raising us up above his shoulders every-time theres something to be remarked upon about us, they might have shown WHY the Doctor has such faith in us.

N.C

The Doctor essentially sees us as complex creatures. He recognises that we can do great acts of evil and hatred and berates us for it but at the same time we can have such love and affection at the same time. I tink he sees this as a unique trait in the galaxy. He sees our courage and our determination in adversity and admires it, just as he admires how we can show kindness to even our worst enemies.
The Doctor, when it comes to humans is ultimately a bit of an optimist which is why he gets so angry when he feels let down by us. In the end though what fascinates him is humanity's massive complexity. When you consider all other races he's met they can seem so 2dimensional, whereas humans never cease to surprise him one way or another.
I think in more recent years he has grown more bitter towards them, partially because of the timewar and also the number of times humanity has let him down. But yet he still holds a belif that humanity has great potential just because of that vast quantity of curiosity and determination that we as a race hold.

Archaeis
June 7th, 2011, 06:16 PM
But that whole idea of "humanity's potential" kind of loses its meaning when he knows (in general) their entire history from beginning to end.

DigiFluid
June 7th, 2011, 06:18 PM
But that whole idea of "humanity's potential" kind of loses its meaning when he knows (in general) their entire history from beginning to end.
That's the reasoning that the Master used to bend Lucy to his will ;)

P-90_177
June 8th, 2011, 12:15 AM
But that whole idea of "humanity's potential" kind of loses its meaning when he knows (in general) their entire history from beginning to end.

It s true tat he knows both their ups and their downs, and he knows how they began and he knows how they ended. But there are still plenty of times in between he hasn't seen. And on top of all that, while he doesn't have as much faith in the human race as a whole any more after all his time, he still sees the good in groups and individuals, such as the Utopians.

rosey_angel
June 8th, 2011, 01:35 AM
Slightly OT, are they both keeping secrets from one another. The Doctor knows that River is doing to die and River knows the Doctor is going to die but they are keeping that secrets?


yep, that's the way it seems =) awesome is it not?



It's funny that the eye patch lady (or whoever is behind trying to kill the Doctor) thinks that they can succeed. I mean even an alliance of the doctor's enemies could not defeat him!

i know! he always has a way out even when it looks like everything going to 5hit. heck, he survived the end of the universe and even had one of his companions rewrite the universe to their memories!


Wow! Just wow! That was amazing!

Until the last moment I'm was thinking: River is the doctor mom? The cousin? The daughter? His lawyer?


lol that last bit would explain why she knows his name, it's on all of the subpoenas.

speaking of something that annoyed me in the ep, did it annoy any one else when River referred to Rory and Amy as the Doctors best friends? I'm sure that in the second part of End of Time the Doctor refers to Donna as his best mate.
Maybe it's just me, but I loved their friendship so much, and they seemed much closer than the Doctor does to Amy or Rory.

Spimman
June 8th, 2011, 05:47 AM
speaking of something that annoyed me in the ep, did it annoy any one else when River referred to Rory and Amy as the Doctors best friends? I'm sure that in the second part of End of Time the Doctor refers to Donna as his best mate.
Maybe it's just me, but I loved their friendship so much, and they seemed much closer than the Doctor does to Amy or Rory.

*Uses River Song Voice*

"Spoilers"

It doesn't hurt that she knows more about the Doctor's (and Amy & Rory's) future than they do.

Alan
June 8th, 2011, 06:15 AM
speaking of something that annoyed me in the ep, did it annoy any one else when River referred to Rory and Amy as the Doctors best friends? I'm sure that in the second part of End of Time the Doctor refers to Donna as his best mate.
Maybe it's just me, but I loved their friendship so much, and they seemed much closer than the Doctor does to Amy or Rory.

It is possible to have more than one best friend. The Doctor referred to Sarah Jane Smith and K-9 as his best friends too.

hallmjo
June 8th, 2011, 01:29 PM
It is possible to have more than one best friend. The Doctor referred to Sarah Jane Smith and K-9 as his best friends too.

Especially when you're pushing 1000 years old, I have differing "best friends" in my life and I'm not even 30.

Starfist
June 9th, 2011, 04:46 PM
I actually enjoyed the episode.
But although it answered some questions...
I'm sure it threw out a few more that need answering.

rosey_angel
June 9th, 2011, 08:55 PM
Especially when you're pushing 1000 years old, I have differing "best friends" in my life and I'm not even 30.


It is possible to have more than one best friend. The Doctor referred to Sarah Jane Smith and K-9 as his best friends too.

yeah i know that, it just sort of rubbed me a bit, you know? He doesn't seem that close with these two as he has done with other companions. Not just Donna but with Rose, Jack, even Wilf. To label Rory and Amy his best friends? Seems like a very high honour

Nth Chevron
June 10th, 2011, 01:53 AM
Well i thin k he reserves the title for HUmans who hold themselves to the high ethical standards of our race, which only about 35% do these days, there was the guy from the Eccleston year who tried to take tech back with him and the Doctor just dumped him

N.C

TryWhistlingThis
June 11th, 2011, 04:05 AM
I enjoyed the episode very much but it didn't quite deliver on the "game changing cliffhanger". It was great to finally know who Riversong was, but, as big a reveal as that was, it didn't come as a shock or anything like that. But I accepted it. Though I argue that I have seen the Doctor fall much further and it was far from his darkest hour despite not everything going according to plan. I can't say the cliffhanger left me on the edge of my seat, but I am looking forward to its return. But I expected to have an episode to keep us thinking and speculating while we're on our short break. The only thing we're left wondering is, "ok, how is he going to resolve this one?"

3.5 out of 5

Alan
June 11th, 2011, 05:17 AM
Well i thin k he reserves the title for HUmans who hold themselves to the high ethical standards of our race, which only about 35% do these days, there was the guy from the Eccleston year who tried to take tech back with him and the Doctor just dumped him

N.C

Indeed. As the Doctor said in The Long Game: "I only travel with the best".

Coco Pops
June 11th, 2011, 08:40 AM
First off who was blowing things up outside the Cyberman ship when Rory was giving them his ultimatum?

Well we knew Amy's daughter was called Melody Pond...... But yeah that it was River was and was not a whole suprise......But OMG what a fantastic episode..... I'm still in a buzz over it.

Grrr that we have to wait till September here in Australia..... What the frack were the BBC thinking tying this to a yank schedule? I'll go through withdrawal.... I just hope the wrap up to the season isn't a let down and they don't sue some kind of magical reset button..

Is the reason River didn't come earlier the whole nonsense with two people in the same place and same time stuff? I am beginning to wonder if the Doctor that left at th end is actually a ganger? So much of that was done this series....... But would the TARDIS/Sexy let him fly her?

Oh and River isn't much of a weapon she doesn't even try to do anything to the Doctor...... Well yet but I don't know.

And nothing wrong with River and Doctor getting together if she's Amy and Rory's baby there's no bloodline to mess up.

And the army of Clergy follow the teachings of a mainframe? WTF????? Humans following the teachings of a computer. For all they know it's got corrupted programs.

Did like the Sith / lightsaber monks... What The? Hope George Lucas doesn't see that. :D




And look what I found

http://my.deviantart.com/messages/#/d34s98j

Tardis Cake.............

Alan
June 11th, 2011, 09:00 AM
First off who was blowing things up outside the Cyberman ship when Rory was giving them his ultimatum?

The Doctor.

Coco Pops
June 11th, 2011, 09:26 AM
The Doctor.

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!! The Doctor blowing ships up. I wonder how?

Starfist
June 11th, 2011, 10:44 AM
Did like the Sith / lightsaber monks... What The? Hope George Lucas doesn't see that. :D


Stephen Moffat doesn't have to worry about George Lucas.
*Engages Geek Mode*

Lightsabers actually appeared in a story in a pulp sci-fi magazine back in the 1930's.

*Disengages Geek Mode*

Sealurk
June 11th, 2011, 11:02 AM
Stephen Moffat doesn't have to worry about George Lucas.
*Engages Geek Mode*

Lightsabers actually appeared in a story in a pulp sci-fi magazine back in the 1930's.

*Disengages Geek Mode*

Besides, the weapons the Headless Monks wield are clearly power swords (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Power_Weapons) from Warhammer 40,000...what?

Alan
June 11th, 2011, 11:47 AM
Wow!!!!!!!!!!!! The Doctor blowing ships up. I wonder how?

If they were Warships, they'd undoubtedly have lots of bangy things that go bang on-board. The Doctor could have made them blow up or even made the Cybermen blow themselves up using nothing more than a teaspoon and an active imagination. He's the Ka Faraq Gatri. The Bringer of Darkness. The Oncoming Storm.

And he should never be underestimated.

The Flyattractor
June 11th, 2011, 07:05 PM
Wow!!!!!!!!!!!! The Doctor blowing ships up. I wonder how?

He probably just waved his screwdriver at them.

I was not impressed with this episode AT ALL!

I think I may not like Dr.Who any more.

The show has just gotten to .... well too STUPID for my taste.

The summer isn't going to be long enough for me.


And I usta love the show so much.

Cold Fuzz
June 11th, 2011, 10:12 PM
And the army of Clergy follow the teachings of a mainframe? WTF????? Humans following the teachings of a computer. For all they know it's got corrupted programs.

False prophets, corrupted programs, fragmented hard drives, papal conclaves... by 5145 I'm sure it'll all be the same to the Clerics. :rolleyes: Disappointing that they would side against the Doctor but not surprising given Church politics in the past.

jameshawking
June 12th, 2011, 12:08 AM
River being their child is, frankly, not surprising at all, really. It's just about the most popular and subscribed to theory about who she is (before this, of course, where it was confirmed).


Still though, a good episode. Great, even. Enough to offset of the disappointment I will undoubtedly feel later.

Coco Pops
June 12th, 2011, 12:20 AM
He probably just waved his screwdriver at them.

I was not impressed with this episode AT ALL!

I think I may not like Dr.Who any more.

The show has just gotten to .... well too STUPID for my taste.

The summer isn't going to be long enough for me.


And I usta love the show so much.



But tell me why have you found it stupid?

I thought this was an awesome episode, with a few minor quibbles..... However the 2nd part I am keeping my expectations low. Usually the 2nd part of a two parter isn't as great sometimes.

jameshawking
June 12th, 2011, 01:47 AM
I think it's fairly established by this episode that The Doctor isn't the "good man" that River kills. It's almost certainly going to be Rory, really. Especially since Moffat isn't the type to use phrases repeatedly without an intent. So with Amy calling Rory "a good man", The Doctor explicitly detailing that he's NOT a "good man", and with river's certainly memorable line about her killing "the best man she's ever known" (also a typical father line).

And it even ties into him dying.

again.

and again.

So yeah, Rory's dead.

Though I'm fairly highly amused that he keeps popping up to be the subtle hero, as opposed to amy's blatant spotlight.



Also, a note: Was anyone else annoyed by the fact that her name was Melody? I mean, really? You're going to ruin the whole (predictable) reveal by having the child's name be the damn reverse of River's?

River Song
Melody Pond

I mean...really?

Nth Chevron
June 12th, 2011, 02:27 AM
Well River was using her name as written by the people of the forest, in English her name is Melody Pond, whose to say, like some other Earth languages, that direct translation doesnt bring her name out as Song River?

N.C

Coco Pops
June 12th, 2011, 03:10 AM
I'll be honest "Good man goes to war" was great....... But I'm not excited about the 2nd part. Usually they are a minor let down. I hate to say this but they won't rescue the baby. That's my gut feeling.

Also where do you see the bony hand holding the sonic screwdriver? We didn't see that in Australia?

Sealurk
June 12th, 2011, 03:16 AM
Also where do you see the bony hand holding the sonic screwdriver? We didn't see that in Australia?

It was shown immediately after the credits had finished on BBC One. I think I posted a link a while back.

Coco Pops
June 12th, 2011, 03:42 AM
It was shown immediately after the credits had finished on BBC One. I think I posted a link a while back.

Well over here they never screened that end bit the scumbags ...

Coco Pops
June 12th, 2011, 04:18 AM
Another thing that bugs me.

The soldiers were talking and they made mention of the Attraxi and how the Doctor helped them out but then called them back for a scolding.. Now that happened in "The 11th Hour" in the universe before he rebooted it...... So how do they know this story? Shouldn't this rebooted universe have no memory of the Doctor's past adventures, so why is Kavorian got a bug up her ass about him?

And how did she get away I thought they had captured her? she had silurians behind her when she was talking to the Doctor..

And why was she bossing those army people about is she their leader?

And why do the clerics follow a computer for their teachings. Can't pull a monk robe down unless the "Papal Mainframe says so" what a load of crap? And how does something with no head hold a hood up and chant?

Sealurk
June 12th, 2011, 04:35 AM
Another thing that bugs me.

The soldiers were talking and they made mention of the Attraxi and how the Doctor helped them out but then called them back for a scolding.. Now that happened in "The 11th Hour" in the universe before he rebooted it...... So how do they know this story? Shouldn't this rebooted universe have no memory of the Doctor's past adventures, so why is Kavorian got a bug up her ass about him?

No, because Amy restored all that. Remember at her wedding in The Big Bang, the whole 'Something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue' thing that restored the Doctor and the TARDIS to the universe? It also restored every action, every memory, everything he did across the entire space-time continuum. That's why the Doctor said memories were so powerful, and Amy was more powerful still because she had lived most of her life in very close proximity to one of the cracks.


And how did she get away I thought they had captured her? she had silurians behind her when she was talking to the Doctor..

The Doctor let them all go. The whole point was to get them to leave, to defeat Demon's Run without a single casualty, not to capture them. Remember Vastra coming in when Rory, Amy and the Doctor are all together with the baby? She says "Take a look, they're leaving. The human's [world?] is ours without a drop of blood spilled".


And why was she bossing those army people about is she their leader?

No idea. Possibly. Probably. I don't think we'll find out until the series comes back.


And why do the clerics follow a computer for their teachings. Can't pull a monk robe down unless the "Papal Mainframe says so" what a load of crap? And how does something with no head hold a hood up and chant?

Artificial intelligence, fifty-first century (or far future, at any rate)...I think computers are going to be far more powerful and capable than they are right now, and almost certainly self-aware, intelligent and effectively people. Besides many of us today arguably worship computers today, and certainly listen to what they tell us.

As for the monks - how does something with no head see where it's going, think, fight, stand up, not die etcetera - it's science fiction! It's a series dealing with a nine hundred year old alien who changes his body and personality every few years while traveling through time and space in a living police box that's bigger on the inside and fending off genocidal pepper pots, potato men with attitude, demons, ghosts, clones, aliens you forget about when you're not looking at them, murderous statues that don't always actually kill you and does so by waving a short metal wand with a glowing tip at them...but monks without heads bothers you? :D

EDIT: Also, religion. People do seemingly odd things in the name of belief and faith. Not pulling a monk's hood down on pain of death is relatively tame compared to some things in real life religions, and besides, the Papal Mainframe possible doesn't want people freaking out at the idea of, well, headless monks.

Coco Pops
June 12th, 2011, 04:52 AM
No, because Amy restored all that. Remember at her wedding in The Big Bang, the whole 'Something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue' thing that restored the Doctor and the TARDIS to the universe? It also restored every action, every memory, everything he did across the entire space-time continuum. That's why the Doctor said memories were so powerful, and Amy was more powerful still because she had lived most of her life in very close proximity to one of the cracks.



The Doctor let them all go. The whole point was to get them to leave, to defeat Demon's Run without a single casualty, not to capture them. Remember Vastra coming in when Rory, Amy and the Doctor are all together with the baby? She says "Take a look, they're leaving. The human's [world?] is ours without a drop of blood spilled".



No idea. Possibly. Probably. I don't think we'll find out until the series comes back.



Artificial intelligence, fifty-first century (or far future, at any rate)...I think computers are going to be far more powerful and capable than they are right now, and almost certainly self-aware, intelligent and effectively people. Besides many of us today arguably worship computers today, and certainly listen to what they tell us.

As for the monks - how does something with no head see where it's going, think, fight, stand up, not die etcetera - it's science fiction! It's a series dealing with a nine hundred year old alien who changes his body and personality every few years while traveling through time and space in a living police box that's bigger on the inside and fending off genocidal pepper pots, potato men with attitude, demons, ghosts, clones, aliens you forget about when you're not looking at them, murderous statues that don't always actually kill you and does so by waving a short metal wand with a glowing tip at them...but monks without heads bothers you? :D

EDIT: Also, religion. People do seemingly odd things in the name of belief and faith. Not pulling a monk's hood down on pain of death is relatively tame compared to some things in real life religions, and besides, the Papal Mainframe possible doesn't want people freaking out at the idea of, well, headless monks.



Good point but I'd like to see the Papal Mainframe get soniced.

Alan
June 12th, 2011, 05:51 AM
In 3000-years time, we can only guess what changes have occurred in mankind, technology, religion, etc. Its not called the "Far Future" for nothing. I like that.

One thing I forgot to mention was this that I enjoyed hearing get addressed:


The Doctor: You think I wanted this? I didn’t do this! This...this wasn’t me!

River Song: This was exactly you. All this, all of it. You make them so afraid. When you began, all those years ago, sailing off to see the universe, did you ever think you’d become this? The man who can turn an army around at the mention of his name? Doctor – the word for healer, and wise man, throughout the universe. We get that word from you, you know. But if you carry on the way you are, what might that word come to mean? To the people of the Gamma Forests, the word ‘doctor’ means ‘mighty warrior’. How far you’ve come.It addresses the change the Doctor has had on all time and space and the reputation he's gotten through the enemies he's defeated. He started off as a man just wanting to see everything and help people because life on Gallifrey was so boring. In all those years of travel...all those evils in all those corners of the universe he's fought he probably never dreamed he'd become a legend with a reputation. The Doctor's become something to be feared and now armies and weapons are being built to fight him and one such army is now planning to use the child of two of the Doctor's friends against him.

This mess IS the Doctor's fault. Not intentionally, but it is. And now the Doctor has to straighten things out. He's on a mission to to save a person that's intended as a weapon against him.

I cannot wait to see how this pans out. Roll on Autumn!

Coco Pops
June 12th, 2011, 06:13 AM
In 3000-years time, we can only guess what changes have occurred in mankind, technology, religion, etc. Its not called the "Far Future" for nothing. I like that.

One thing I forgot to mention was this that I enjoyed hearing get addressed:


The Doctor: You think I wanted this? I didn’t do this! This...this wasn’t me!

River Song: This was exactly you. All this, all of it. You make them so afraid. When you began, all those years ago, sailing off to see the universe, did you ever think you’d become this? The man who can turn an army around at the mention of his name? Doctor – the word for healer, and wise man, throughout the universe. We get that word from you, you know. But if you carry on the way you are, what might that word come to mean? To the people of the Gamma Forests, the word ‘doctor’ means ‘mighty warrior’. How far you’ve come.It addresses the change the Doctor has had on all time and space and the reputation he's gotten through the enemies he's defeated. He started off as a man just wanting to see everything and help people because life on Gallifrey was so boring. In all those years of travel...all those evils in all those corners of the universe he's fought he probably never dreamed he'd become a legend with a reputation. The Doctor's become something to be feared and now armies and weapons are being built to fight him and one such army is now planning to use the child of two of the Doctor's friends against him.

This mess IS the Doctor's fault. Not intentionally, but it is. And now the Doctor has to straighten things out. He's on a mission to to save a person that's intended as a weapon against him.

I cannot wait to see how this pans out. Roll on Autumn!



Me either. That hand holding the sonic Oooh spooky.......... But we never got that here in Australia they cut that bit off.. Also why was the prequel bit with the blue guy and Monks not shown on TV

Galileo_Galilee
June 12th, 2011, 08:51 AM
You know, since those monks truly are headless I wonder how they keep that hood up in the shape of a head.

jameshawking
June 12th, 2011, 09:51 AM
Interesting note:

The Sontaran was a soldier who became a nurse and was disgraced, but accepted it.

Rory was a nurse who was disgraced and embarrassed, put down, and now became an apparently intergalactic warrior, infamous and feared, and quite a capable one at that.


Other than Jack, has there been a warrior-companion?

Coco Pops
June 12th, 2011, 09:52 AM
You know, since those monks truly are headless I wonder how they keep that hood up in the shape of a head.

And how can they chant?


http://drwho.answers.wikia.com/wiki/Does_the_doctor_have_a_child

What a fantastic wikia?

Actually this was the best episode of the season so far ... But reading the wiki I just realised my hunch that the baby can't be rescued is true.. So the Doctor can't ever rescue the baby and bring her back to Amy because there is that line in the poem "friendships die" meaning he will disappoint Amy and Rory.......Rescuing Melody/River will create some kind of paradox......

Possible theory
http://drwho.answers.wikia.com/wiki/How_are_madame_kovarian_and_the_silence_linked

I just hope there is no wanky resolution to this it seems very messy.

Coco Pops
June 12th, 2011, 09:57 AM
No, because Amy restored all that. Remember at her wedding in The Big Bang, the whole 'Something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue' thing that restored the Doctor and the TARDIS to the universe? It also restored every action, every memory, everything he did across the entire space-time continuum. That's why the Doctor said memories were so powerful, and Amy was more powerful still because she had lived most of her life in very close proximity to one of the cracks.

If this is true then all those aliens must know the Pandorica plan had failed... The baby was the backup plan.... Maybe Kovarian and the Silents were in on the whole thing with the Pandorica but when that failed they moved to plan B.

Galileo_Galilee
June 12th, 2011, 11:11 AM
Hold on a moment, how was Rory disgraced?

jameshawking
June 12th, 2011, 11:25 AM
11th Hour he was basically just knocked around by his boss and looked down on. Even the Doctor (through the Dream Lord) thought he was just petty and boring, bland. I'd call that fairly humiliating, frankly.

He went from mostly an embarrassment to someone that the is known through the galaxy.

Sim
June 12th, 2011, 12:44 PM
He's on a mission to to save a person that's intended as a weapon against him.

The thing is that they've already failed to rescue River from when she was infant to young child. She ended up in that Space Suit Life Support thing being held by the Silents.

Galileo_Galilee
June 12th, 2011, 01:06 PM
Yeah, but was it really her in that space suit who killed the Doctor?

So far to count:


Death: Library planet.
Adult River I from Angels
Adult River II Newly imprisoned after London 1888 ??
Child in Space Suit River.
Baby River.
Adult River in Space Suit killing the Doctor ???
Maybe Teen River in space suit killing the Doctor which could be the event that forced River to force her way out of the Space suit?

Each of these are different periods of time in River's life. The ones with a question mark means that I'm still uncertain if that was actually River in that suit at that time or somebody else, or uncertain that if she was newly imprisoned in that cell.

And I also wonder if that spoiler book has the spoiler to Rivers' death in it too.



I hope the next episode shows more Amy/Rory reaction to her revelation.

Also, in her first Appearance in the Library she and a team were also in space suits. So I wonder if there weren't any more of these kinds of children being made. I think the program might be to breed these children while being exposed to the Arkon energy to manipulate their DNA to use those suits and seal them in forever in order to control them.

I hope Moffat reveals who these people are, why they're so afraid of the Doctor, and why the hound him for two hundred years trying to make his life miserable as possible.

The Flyattractor
June 12th, 2011, 01:57 PM
:(
But tell me why have you found it stupid?
.

Its just kind of the TONE of everything.

Maybe its just all the continuity and back story lines that keep getting regurgetated.

For an old school WHO fan its kinda hard to swallow sometimes.

And the more they try to get all twisty with the plot,like with River,and the Baby,the easier it seems to be to just figure it all out.

As for some of the stupid things about the episode.
I hate the Spitfighters in Space from the Dalek Victory episode(which I found quite full of stupid)
The Headless Monks? Really? Could that been any more Star Wars rip off?
And introducing characters like the Sontaran Nurse. The Big Blue Bartender,and The Silurian Ninja and her girlfriend outof the ether with no explanation of who they are for no more reason then just seeming to try and be cool.
I mean its like Who are these people and Why should I care?
And I am getting tired of all the Religious nonsence too.
Especially the Doctor's Superman/Chirst complex.
*although its not as bad now as it was with Tennent*
That and the Doctor becoming the Big Bad Boogeyman of Space.

Its just a whole bunch of little things.


That or I am just to old for the show anymore.:(

Sealurk
June 12th, 2011, 02:11 PM
:(

Its just kind of the TONE of everything.

Maybe its just all the continuity and back story lines that keep getting regurgetated.

For an old school WHO fan its kinda hard to swallow sometimes.

And the more they try to get all twisty with the plot,like with River,and the Baby,the easier it seems to be to just figure it all out.

As for some of the stupid things about the episode.
I hate the Spitfighters in Space from the Dalek Victory episode(which I found quite full of stupid)
The Headless Monks? Really? Could that been any more Star Wars rip off?
And introducing characters like the Sontaran Nurse. The Big Blue Bartender,and The Silurian Ninja and her girlfriend outof the ether with no explanation of who they are for no more reason then just seeming to try and be cool.
I mean its like Who are these people and Why should I care?
And I am getting tired of all the Religious nonsence too.
Especially the Doctor's Superman/Chirst complex.
*although its not as bad now as it was with Tennent*
That and the Doctor becoming the Big Bad Boogeyman of Space.

Its just a whole bunch of little things.


That or I am just to old for the show anymore.:(

I can understand and sort of agree with a lot of those points (though I think brown cloaks, warrior monks and energised swords individually pre-date Star Wars :D), but I think the point of the episode was largely spectacle, mixed with the question 'what happens when you really, really push the Doctor?'.

As far as the last problem goes (big bad boogeyman) I believe Moffat has stated or hinted that the Doctor's rising celebrity and mythical status is going to be completely undone, so this episode was set up to clearly show how out of hand it's got, hence River's speech to him near the end. Additionally, her quote to Rory about the Doctor rising higher than ever before falling so much further probably comes into play here. This episode was the rise, so the fall is probably yet to come, and its not unreasonable to assume that is when the Doctor's status as a legend gets wiped out.

cooncatbob
June 12th, 2011, 02:22 PM
I was floored, I've been a Dr Who fan for over 30 years, I've got a box of VHS tapes with all the episodes of the first 5 Doctors, they used to air on KTEH in San Jose.
I lost interest with 6th and 7th Doctors then got back into it short before Tennant.
I thought Rory was a rather weak character at first but he came into his own when he guarded Amy in the Pandorica for 2000 years, now he more then holds his own with Amy and the Doctor.
I fine River Song an awesome character and to learn she's Amy and Rory's daughter is like WTF.

The Flyattractor
June 12th, 2011, 02:26 PM
As far as the last problem goes (big bad boogeyman) I believe Moffat has stated or hinted that the Doctor's rising celebrity and mythical status is going to be completely undone, so this episode was set up to clearly show how out of hand it's got, hence River's speech to him near the end. Additionally, her quote to Rory about the Doctor rising higher than ever before falling so much further probably comes into play here. This episode was the rise, so the fall is probably yet to come, and its not unreasonable to assume that is when the Doctor's status as a legend gets wiped out.

Worst example of the DBBBM for me was in the Tennent/Human Nature episode.
The ending where he dealt with the Family just seemed so out of character for the Doctor.
Even when he is "pushed" to far.

And yes your right. Laser Swards were quite common before star wars.
Shakessphere was one that really almost over did the medium.;)

Sealurk
June 12th, 2011, 02:34 PM
And yes your right. Laser Swards were quite common before star wars.
Shakessphere was one that really almost over did the medium.;)

Ah yes, the infamous "Is this a monomolecular plasma blade I see before me?" line from MacBeth: The Next Generation...

Galileo_Galilee
June 12th, 2011, 04:11 PM
You know...

River seems to have a more in tune sense of how time operated than the Doctor.

She seems to be aware of the full time line.

Except possibly her own death.

Alan
June 12th, 2011, 04:58 PM
You know...

River seems to have a more in tune sense of how time operated than the Doctor.

She seems to be aware of the full time line.

Except possibly her own death.

I think it just depends on which point in time the Doctor meets her and that there's some things River knows that the Doctor can't know yet because if he knows certain things in advance then there's a danger of the Doctor accidentally changing the course of events.

And staying with River for a moment...I look forward to a future story which sees the Doctor giving River his Sonic Screwdriver and also inheriting Captain Jack Harkness' Sonic Blaster. Once we see her with those then we know she's fully kitted up and getting ever closer to the Doctor's first meeting with her (from his POV) and her death at the Library in Silence in the Library.

I love this time travel stuff. The storyline between the Doctor and River is incredibly fascinating and intriguing to me and now that Mr. Moffat has thrown Amy and Rory in to the relationship too...wow. He's turned things up to 11...again!

gateship15
June 12th, 2011, 10:53 PM
it was no something i expected river being rory and amys daughter and was a shock. i wander how she ends up with the doctor when shes the little girl that kills him. it was a ok episode but this doctor still hasn't grown on me and i don't know if he will.

mizzoueng
June 13th, 2011, 10:12 AM
I thought the episode was great, but I need to watch it at least one more time to pick it all up.

What I found strange was at the end. The Doctor now knows who River is, he knows she is Amy and Rory's daughter, he knows that they become "intimate", he knows she will become a murderer, he knows how she "dies".

Wouldn't this change his perception of her and his feelings towards her? At some point wouldn't he question his involvement with her? Are the feelings he has towards her genuine or is he just going through the motions based on what he already knows?

Galileo_Galilee
June 13th, 2011, 10:29 AM
Not necessarily. Love is a blinding thing, and sometimes people in love will go to great lengths to forgive the person they're in love in.

Hence why criminal rapists in prison still get married to someone who loves them.

And also, we still don't know the full extent of the circumstances that are around the person River kills. She might have killed somebody in order to save millions of people or to save the entire universe, for example.

Which might explain the weird privileges she gets in that really bad security prison she's in.

Coco Pops
June 13th, 2011, 06:18 PM
Not necessarily. Love is a blinding thing, and sometimes people in love will go to great lengths to forgive the person they're in love in.

Hence why criminal rapists in prison still get married to someone who loves them.

And also, we still don't know the full extent of the circumstances that are around the person River kills. She might have killed somebody in order to save millions of people or to save the entire universe, for example.

Which might explain the weird privileges she gets in that really bad security prison she's in.

Oh Stormcage.........That's a total joke.....

Coco Pops
June 13th, 2011, 06:23 PM
Hey might be a stupid question but is there any real reason River could not have arrived earlier and helped or would that have been problematic since the baby was only a ganga?

This flesh stuff is handy seems everyone knows about it..

Also did anyone notice on the Cyberman ship outside the window a formation of stars in the shape of "the crack" from last season.... Hmmmmmmm

Coco Pops
June 13th, 2011, 11:59 PM
I loved it too....... So Kovarian has a bug up her bum about the Doctor. I wonder what her back story is and why she's so peed off at the Doctor?

I love the whole kidnap the baby make a weapon out of her and the baby is River Song.... Not much of a weapon... So I think her, the clerics and the Silence were behind the Pandorica and when that plan failed this was plan B.

But had their plan worked they wouldn't have been around to whinge about the Doctor..... So it's moot really.......

Also did anyone notice ?

A) Amy's room wa a redress of one of the Whtehouse sets

B) On the cyber spaceship outside the windows a formations of stars in the same shape as "the crack" from last year.... It's more then a coincidenc..

SaberBlade
June 14th, 2011, 02:10 AM
I love the whole kidnap the baby make a weapon out of her and the baby is River Song.... Not much of a weapon...

Considering she made a Dalek beg for mercy, I think she is probably more of a weapon than we have yet to see. The Doctor hasn't gotten a reaction like that from them, other than making them scared.

Coco Pops
June 14th, 2011, 03:02 AM
Considering she made a Dalek beg for mercy, I think she is probably more of a weapon than we have yet to see. The Doctor hasn't gotten a reaction like that from them, other than making them scared.

OK fair enough....But when does she goe "weapons hot" against the Doctor that's what I want to see if she's such a weapon. I have to admit I wonder what info that Dalek found in the databanks when she said "look me up?"

mizzoueng
June 14th, 2011, 11:10 AM
So in the episode we were supposed to watch the monitors and the corridors. Did anyone actually see anything?

I watched it again last night and I did not see anything. Even when they had the close-up of River's DNA sequence, there was nothing on the screen out of the ordinary.

there was a constant diagram up of one section of the base that looked a lot like the Millennium Falcon, but that was it. I was expecting to see Silents looking around once in a while or something creepy. The corridors looked kinda like the ones from the Tardis we saw in the junk planet episode, but that was about it. Even then, they were different, the floors were lit with orange lights, the Tardis corridors were primarily white.

The thing that did pop to mind was that these marines were the same cleric marines that the Doc and River teamed up with to defeat the Weeping Angels. That is also the first time the Doctor learns that River "kills a good man". So they are at war with the Doctor, then suddenly they are not?

Later, we know that the Doctor sees River, a lot. Then in this episode we know the Doctor picks up and drops off River at the Stormcage. So if they are following their proper timeline then River has already killed the "good man" and the Doctor is still around.

Teddybrown
June 14th, 2011, 03:30 PM
So in the episode we were supposed to watch the monitors and the corridors. Did anyone actually see anything?

I watched it again last night and I did not see anything. Even when they had the close-up of River's DNA sequence, there was nothing on the screen out of the ordinary.

there was a constant diagram up of one section of the base that looked a lot like the Millennium Falcon, but that was it. I was expecting to see Silents looking around once in a while or something creepy. The corridors looked kinda like the ones from the Tardis we saw in the junk planet episode, but that was about it. Even then, they were different, the floors were lit with orange lights, the Tardis corridors were primarily white.

The thing that did pop to mind was that these marines were the same cleric marines that the Doc and River teamed up with to defeat the Weeping Angels. That is also the first time the Doctor learns that River "kills a good man". So they are at war with the Doctor, then suddenly they are not?

Later, we know that the Doctor sees River, a lot. Then in this episode we know the Doctor picks up and drops off River at the Stormcage. So if they are following their proper timeline then River has already killed the "good man" and the Doctor is still around.

I too was looking out for corridors and monitors that looked out of the ordinary, and couldnt find anything...
I really dont think its the Doctor that River kills...

Coco Pops
June 15th, 2011, 01:03 AM
I too was looking out for corridors and monitors that looked out of the ordinary, and couldnt find anything...
I really dont think its the Doctor that River kills...

Then it must be Rory as he's the only other male around IMHO. So where does the weapon part in her come to be?

Zarius
June 15th, 2011, 03:54 AM
Then it must be Rory as he's the only other mail around IMHO

Or not, it may just be a character we havent been introduced to yet. Why does it have to be a long-term character? Too obvious.

Coco Pops
June 15th, 2011, 03:57 AM
Or not, it may just be a character we havent been introduced to yet. Why does it have to be a long-term character? Too obvious.

True.... Could even be Captain Runaway..

jameshawking
June 17th, 2011, 01:28 PM
Something really confuses me, actually, about the Doctor in this Episode.

9 said that the thought of the Doctor doing something without a plan was terrifying, even for Daleks.
10 scared off the Vashta Nerada with his name and even had his weapon-status explained and expositioned to death when fighting Davros again.
11 even used his fearsome reputation and abilities not only to scare off the Atraxi, but also to, he thought, hold off thousands of battleships of every enemy he ever fought ever, including Daleks.


So why the hell is he NOW so shocked and scared and repulsed by the thought of him being known as a weapon, whereas multiple times over the past few regenerations, even his current one, he flaunted his weapon-status in the faces of people he didn't like. He even regularly, since episode 1, held himself as better than others at times and as a truly terrifying person, even to his companions ("Don't try to play games with me, don't you ever think you're capable of doing that" was the direct quote, I believe).



So, again,why the hell is he so amazed by this outcome?

Sealurk
June 17th, 2011, 01:46 PM
Something really confuses me, actually, about the Doctor in this Episode.

9 said that the thought of the Doctor doing something without a plan was terrifying, even for Daleks.
10 scared off the Vashta Nerada with his name and even had his weapon-status explained and expositioned to death when fighting Davros again.
11 even used his fearsome reputation and abilities not only to scare off the Atraxi, but also to, he thought, hold off thousands of battleships of every enemy he ever fought ever, including Daleks.


So why the hell is he NOW so shocked and scared and repulsed by the thought of him being known as a weapon, whereas multiple times over the past few regenerations, even his current one, he flaunted his weapon-status in the faces of people he didn't like. He even regularly, since episode 1, held himself as better than others at times and as a truly terrifying person, even to his companions ("Don't try to play games with me, don't you ever think you're capable of doing that" was the direct quote, I believe).



So, again,why the hell is he so amazed by this outcome?

Possibly because although he is aware of his power, he wasn't necessarily aware of the consequences - like the word Doctor meaning mighty warrior to at least one group of people. He perhaps hadn't considered that his fearsome, legendary reputation was not just a powerful tool at his disposal, but was having a deleterious effect on entire societies. Maybe he was dimly aware of it, but hadn't had to confront it head on and realise that what he is doing and merely what he is might be more harmful in the long run than many of the enemies he fights.

Besides, the Doctor is a little bit arrogant and occasionally blind to the bleedin' obvious! :D

From a dramatic point of view, I think they are gearing up to undo the Doctor's rep since it is getting to the point where he basically just lands, pokes his head out of the TARDIS, casually mentions his name to both sides and dematerialises again while they wet themselves and immediately sign treaties promising to do nothing remotely offensive to the other side up to and including mild swearing...:P

Coco Pops
June 17th, 2011, 03:42 PM
Possibly because although he is aware of his power, he wasn't necessarily aware of the consequences - like the word Doctor meaning mighty warrior to at least one group of people. He perhaps hadn't considered that his fearsome, legendary reputation was not just a powerful tool at his disposal, but was having a deleterious effect on entire societies. Maybe he was dimly aware of it, but hadn't had to confront it head on and realise that what he is doing and merely what he is might be more harmful in the long run than many of the enemies he fights.

Besides, the Doctor is a little bit arrogant and occasionally blind to the bleedin' obvious! :D

From a dramatic point of view, I think they are gearing up to undo the Doctor's rep since it is getting to the point where he basically just lands, pokes his head out of the TARDIS, casually mentions his name to both sides and dematerialises again while they wet themselves and immediately sign treaties promising to do nothing remotely offensive to the other side up to and including mild swearing...:P


And what will that turn him into "Doctor Wimp"

I don't like this path.........He's always been a legendary figure and even feared in the old series why undo that?

I get what you are saying but don't have to like it.

Sealurk
June 17th, 2011, 03:47 PM
And what will that turn him into "Doctor Wimp"

I don't like this path.........He's always been a legendary figure and even feared in the old series why undo that?

I get what you are saying but don't have to like it.

Probably because if he continues down this path, it makes things far too simple for him. The way he's going, he'll eventually be able to simply sidle up to the monster of the week and casually say while pointing to himself "Uh, Doctor?" and smile as it runs (glides/teleports/slithers) off shrieking.

By removing his reputation as a tool, he has to think more, he has to find far more novel solutions to the problems and he cannot simply defeat every enemy through his mere presence. At a guess, anyway.

Replicator Todd
June 17th, 2011, 11:39 PM
I think "Doctor Wimp" is better than winning every single battle with no way to lose in sight.

rosey_angel
June 18th, 2011, 12:41 AM
Something really confuses me, actually, about the Doctor in this Episode.

9 said that the thought of the Doctor doing something without a plan was terrifying, even for Daleks.
10 scared off the Vashta Nerada with his name and even had his weapon-status explained and expositioned to death when fighting Davros again.
11 even used his fearsome reputation and abilities not only to scare off the Atraxi, but also to, he thought, hold off thousands of battleships of every enemy he ever fought ever, including Daleks.


So why the hell is he NOW so shocked and scared and repulsed by the thought of him being known as a weapon, whereas multiple times over the past few regenerations, even his current one, he flaunted his weapon-status in the faces of people he didn't like. He even regularly, since episode 1, held himself as better than others at times and as a truly terrifying person, even to his companions ("Don't try to play games with me, don't you ever think you're capable of doing that" was the direct quote, I believe).



So, again,why the hell is he so amazed by this outcome?

My thought is that he knew that he had this 'power' but never to this level. Plus, he's never really had someone lay it all out for him before. Truelly, until I just read your post I never realised all the freaking scary things that he's done; when it's all said at the same time the meaning all becomes clear. With the thing at the end of s6 (getting all of the villains to behave for a sec) it seemed like he was just having a bit of a lark and that he was having fun with his reputation. Maybe he just thought it was all fun and never actually stood by the understand the full consequences coz he was too busy looking at the positives, ie the day has been saved

Coco Pops
June 18th, 2011, 03:12 AM
One thing though. Does anyone have any ideas in their heads of why Cybermen were at the Pandorica before everyone had arrived?

Galileo_Galilee
June 18th, 2011, 09:42 AM
Somebody had to have built it.

It's possible they were the builders, and one of them had some sort of accident, and was just left there.

Sealurk
June 18th, 2011, 10:03 AM
They were guarding it. The Doctor specifically mentions that the Cyber-man that got 'duffed up by the locals (never underestimate a Celt)' was probably a guard, and there's a sentry box next to the Pandorica with cyber weapons in it.

Skydiver
June 18th, 2011, 01:51 PM
I think the biggest thing about the doctor being evil or people being afraid of him...absolute power corrupts absolutely. He's getting to the point that his whims or wishes become reality...whether they're for the better good or not.

he's >< to becoming a villain. this >< to going too far, to abusing others for his own wishes and desires. His power is corrupting his morals.

Sealurk
June 18th, 2011, 02:13 PM
So, the Doctor's getting more and more powerful, we're seeing more and more hints of his dark side, he's getting closer to his final regeneration...is this Steven "Long Game" Moffat setting up a return for the Valeyard? And is the Valeyard the subject of the Doctor Who equivalent to Godwin's (or Jarnin's) Law?!

Skydiver
June 19th, 2011, 11:52 AM
do you think this could be built upon Waters of Mars where he changed history? He's gotten attached to people and isn't letting things play out as they should. He's changing, sometimes for the good, sometimes not.

arent' time lords supposed to be observers and not doers?

Alan
June 19th, 2011, 12:49 PM
do you think this could be built upon Waters of Mars where he changed history? He's gotten attached to people and isn't letting things play out as they should. He's changing, sometimes for the good, sometimes not.

arent' time lords supposed to be observers and not doers?

The reason the Doctor left Gallifrey was because all Time Lords did was observe. The Doctor may interfere in the affairs of the other planets and peoples but he never dared interfere with established events or do any thing that could damage the Web of Time...at least until the events of The Waters of Mars opened his eyes. The End of Time never really addressed a Time Lord Victorious...but maybe...indirectly...Mr. Moffat is doing that and showing just what the Doctor's normal interference is doing to him and to those around him.

Skydiver
June 19th, 2011, 12:55 PM
he took that first step down the slippery slope. and has people too afraid of him to stand up to him. so he doesn't have much of a checks and balances. He has shown a lack of impulse control, and has a lack of people to control him and can be seen as a future danger.

Alan
June 19th, 2011, 03:02 PM
he took that first step down the slippery slope. and has people too afraid of him to stand up to him. so he doesn't have much of a checks and balances. He has shown a lack of impulse control, and has a lack of people to control him and can be seen as a future danger.

In the 1986 story The Trial of a Time Lord, the Doctor faced a physical entity that was from somewhere between his 12th and 13th incarnations and was totally devoid of anything recognisable as the Doctor. It was his evil side totally unleashed and filtered of goodness. The Master himself feared what this entity was and that he wouldn't be able to beat it.

If what he did in the 2009 story The Waters of Mars was his first small step down this dark path and if he continued like this throughout time and space then eventually he'd certainly build a legendary reputation for himself and the Doctor may indeed become like that entity the Master feared. He'd be consumed by the darkness within him. A twisted parody of the man we know...totally devoid of compassion or mercy or anything that makes the Doctor who he is. A man like that totally free of his rules, unleashed on time and space would be feared. A man like that would cause Pandorica's to be built to imprison him...would bring bitter rivals like the Daleks and the Cybermen and the Sontarans together to fight him...and encourage armies to be raised against him.

Coco Pops
June 19th, 2011, 04:52 PM
In the 1986 story The Trial of a Time Lord, the Doctor faced a physical entity that was from somewhere between his 12th and 13th incarnations and was totally devoid of anything recognisable as the Doctor. It was his evil side totally unleashed and filtered of goodness. The Master himself feared what this entity was and that he wouldn't be able to beat it.

If what he did in the 2009 story The Waters of Mars was his first small step down this dark path and if he continued like this throughout time and space then eventually he'd certainly build a legendary reputation for himself and the Doctor may indeed become like that entity the Master feared. He'd be consumed by the darkness within him. A twisted parody of the man we know...totally devoid of compassion or mercy or anything that makes the Doctor who he is. A man like that totally free of his rules, unleashed on time and space would be feared. A man like that would cause Pandorica's to be built to imprison him...would bring bitter rivals like the Daleks and the Cybermen and the Sontarans together to fight him...and encourage armies to be raised against him.


Funny because River Song said all this in the Library episodes..... No one had an issue with it then. Why now?

Skydiver
June 19th, 2011, 05:43 PM
his companions have always been the focus point for getting involved. either she'd get kidnapped, requiring him to get involved to rescue her, or she'd say he needed to fix something and he'd find a way to please her and stay within the rules.

however, now we're seeing the doctor rallying the troops to save his friend...and we're seeing major plots against him. everything seems to be escalating to the point of him not just tweaking history to the greater good (like theoretically sam beckett did in quantum leap) he seems willing to tweak history to suit himself. A very, very dangerous place to be. and a very dangerous person to be near. Because, it seems his loyalty to his friends matters more than the galaxy as a whole.

Coco Pops
June 19th, 2011, 08:23 PM
his companions have always been the focus point for getting involved. either she'd get kidnapped, requiring him to get involved to rescue her, or she'd say he needed to fix something and he'd find a way to please her and stay within the rules.

however, now we're seeing the doctor rallying the troops to save his friend...and we're seeing major plots against him. everything seems to be escalating to the point of him not just tweaking history to the greater good (like theoretically sam beckett did in quantum leap) he seems willing to tweak history to suit himself. A very, very dangerous place to be. and a very dangerous person to be near. Because, it seems his loyalty to his friends matters more than the galaxy as a whole.

Well you gotta have friends :D

Pharaoh Hamenthotep
June 20th, 2011, 05:45 AM
Just watched this one again.. and then The Impossible Astronaut.. The younger Doctor was 909 when Amy said he was 908.. And in the White House when he was looking at the maps he said he was "following another lead", the first time I saw it I thought he was referring to the street names to find the girl.. but now it seems that he may have the information from the computers on Demon's Run. We know that the Doctor left at the end of "A Good Man Goes to War" to find Melody/River/Girl in the Space Suit... so did The Doctor in The Impossible Astronaut (the one with the special straw in the diner) arrive from slightly in the future after A Good Man Goes to War?

Of course there has to be a point where the 908 year old Doctor reappears to stop it all becoming a confusing time looping paradox..

Galileo_Galilee
June 22nd, 2011, 09:19 AM
You know, that's the sad thing about the paranoid.

They often create the very same situation that they are afraid of because they can't leave things alone.

If they would leave the Doctor alone, he wouldn't be going down this path, if he is indeed going down this dark path.

But that's the thing about heroes, in order to grow they must go down the dark path at least once in their career.

Nth Chevron
June 28th, 2011, 04:12 PM
Of course there has to be a point where the 908 year old Doctor reappears to stop it all becoming a confusing time looping paradox..

Its already beyond that point for some people i know :P

Seriously though, i think its been established over the last 1.5 seasons that Moffat is clever and devious in ways that we cant pick up on 100% until its revealed, so i for one will be wasting a little less brain power on trying to out think the Einstein of the continuity writing of Doctor Who and a little more on willing time to speed up for Episode 8 :D

N.C

jameshawking
June 28th, 2011, 08:49 PM
Its already beyond that point for some people i know :P

Seriously though, i think its been established over the last 1.5 seasons that Moffat is clever and devious in ways that we cant pick up on 100% until its revealed, so i for one will be wasting a little less brain power on trying to out think the Einstein of the continuity writing of Doctor Who and a little more on willing time to speed up for Episode 8 :D

N.Cyou mean like how nobody at all foresaw the great mystery f River being Amy's child?

Nth Chevron
June 29th, 2011, 01:19 AM
Re-read what i wrote, engage brain and THEN try to troll.

N.C

PMN1
June 29th, 2011, 10:26 AM
Did the Doctor turn his sonic on 'rescued Amy' at all?

Given he has been fooled twice, what's to stop him being fooled three times and 'real Amy' was taken off the asteroid at the same time as 'real Melody' leaving a ganger Amy behind?

Doesn't the upcoming scene with Amy and Rory on a motorbike have them being a bit shocked when a clone Amy comes up alongside them?

Alan
June 29th, 2011, 11:56 AM
Did the Doctor turn his sonic on 'rescued Amy' at all?

No.


Given he has been fooled twice, what's to stop him being fooled three times and 'real Amy' was taken off the asteroid at the same time as 'real Melody' leaving a ganger Amy behind?

Nothing's to stop him being fooled again. We'll have to wait and see.


Doesn't the upcoming scene with Amy and Rory on a motorbike have them being a bit shocked when a clone Amy comes up alongside them?

Thanks for the spoiler.

jameshawking
June 29th, 2011, 01:28 PM
Not trolling

just pointing out that the biggest mystery he's ever had was "called" by the first episode of Matt Smith's first episode.

And I'd reserve calling him a "genius of continuity" until we see how the continuity actually plays out.

Ian-S
June 30th, 2011, 07:46 PM
I seem to remember a lot of people dismissed the Jacket wearing Doctor in the Angel's episode last season as continuity error, or didn't even notice it at all....

Admiral Mappalazarou
July 5th, 2011, 01:47 PM
Feel embarrassed that I just realised that the Headless Monks were introduced in The Time of Angels, with the museum from the opening as 'their final resting place.'

Cold Fuzz
July 10th, 2011, 10:43 PM
Feel embarrassed that I just realised that the Headless Monks were introduced in The Time of Angels, with the museum from the opening as 'their final resting place.'

Just speculation, but could be that we'll see how and why that location became their final resting place.

Coco Pops
September 27th, 2012, 09:22 PM
Just speculation, but could be that we'll see how and why that location became their final resting place.

I do hope so......... I hate those guys and want them dead

Cold Fuzz
September 28th, 2012, 01:02 AM
I do hope so......... I hate those guys and want them dead

That won't be an easy thing to accomplish.

If the prequel to Asylum of the Daleks is any indication, it seems the Headless Monks are powerful telepaths. It'll be difficult to scrag them.

Coco Pops
September 28th, 2012, 06:36 AM
That won't be an easy thing to accomplish.

If the prequel to Asylum of the Daleks is any indication, it seems the Headless Monks are powerful telepaths. It'll be difficult to scrag them.


They never showed the prequel in Australia, in face we never get them.

Any youtube of it?

Also how can they be telepaths with no heads? I view them as little more then drones for the computer thing that controls them.

Cold Fuzz
September 28th, 2012, 09:34 PM
They never showed the prequel in Australia, in face we never get them.

Any youtube of it?

Also how can they be telepaths with no heads? I view them as little more then drones for the computer thing that controls them.

The prequel can be seen here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWM-o8JUkec&hd=1)

As for being telepathic/psychic without a head, to me, the rest of their bodies could be imbued with psychic energy. There's never been any definitive exploration of how the monks do what they do though so we're left with supposition.

They can fire pulses of energy with their hands and even direct that energy into their swords. That implies telekinetic powers as well. In the prequel, the monk is definitely a strong telepath if he can psychically contact the Doctor the way he does.

Coco Pops
September 29th, 2012, 12:49 AM
The prequel can be seen here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWM-o8JUkec&hd=1)

As for being telepathic/psychic without a head, to me, the rest of their bodies could be imbued with psychic energy. There's never been any definitive exploration of how the monks do what they do though so we're left with supposition.

They can fire pulses of energy with their hands and even direct that energy into their swords. That implies telekinetic powers as well. In the prequel, the monk is definitely a strong telepath if he can psychically contact the Doctor the way he does.


My personal view of the Monks is that they're animated drones driven by the papal mainframe.

Coco Pops
September 29th, 2012, 12:53 AM
So in this timeline the Monks are not the Dr's enemy?

maneth
June 15th, 2013, 07:35 AM
Cool episode. Loved getting confirmation on River Song's identity. :D