That was a diplomatic disaster!

[Nemises]

How amateurish can earth be ? bloody hell (or the writers didn't think it through )

All the trust earned through years of partnership lost in a single moment of madness. I mean even if the mission went as planned and the gate worked without the planet blowing up we would have still ended up losing the trust they had in us.

It would have been better if earth had provided security against the LA in the first place and given there scientists a couple of months to work it through and then dial destiny.

[zainea13]

yeah i would have rather seen that happen. i thin kit is time for destiny to get some fresh faces and also to get some fresh supplies. I think shows that shuffle the main cast a little are more successful. Farscape comes to mind. They added someone new and took someone away about once or twice a season. Chrichton, Aeryn, and D'argo never left, and Zaahn was around for the first 2.5 about, but they chnaged it up. It made for an interesting show.

[Rylor]

The plan was short-sided in my opinion. Let's assume for a minute they would have managed to establish a connection. I doubt the Langaran government would just forget about the whole incident and say "Well, McKay's solution works after all, let's work together". They still endangered millions (McKay is not infallible, "Trinity" and Project Arcturus comes to mind), kidnapped Langaran people and violated the territory of a sovereign nation (calling it an invasion might be a bit harsh, but it is not too far from the truth). Langara would have more than enough reason to terminate all diplomatic relation with Earth. The only reason to decide otherwise is the Lucian Alliance threat.

The whole mission was a mistake on Earth's part, and could have easily gotten out of control. I was glad to see that Woolsey and McKay prevented a direct confrontation.

[traylormatt]

They thought they were in connection with the LA. They didnt know if they were being threatened by the LA so had to do what they were saying, for all earth knew they were willing participants in it all. As such they took action that was needed. What else could they have done "Hey we know youve been talking to the LA, so whats going on with that"

If LA and the Langarans had been getting together then that would have left Earth in a bad position also. So they did something which hopefully would cost no lives (please don't say that they could hove blown up the planet. Unfortunately we have to go by what was said in the episode and they had all of earth's best aggreeing it would work. The difference in the past has been that someone important has always disagreed with an idea. Like zalenka or rush or eli. this time everyone was aggreed)

I am not saying it was morally right. But they had little option is all. For all they knew the reason that they wanted to put earth off for a couple of months was because the LA had a base of operation on Langara sorting out the final stages of dialing Destiny and were going to attack in a week. We don;t know they weren't. Earth had to go by worst case scenario and they acted accordingly.

A. Let the LA have control of a gate that can dial destiny (yet earth wouldn;t even know it was from the langara gate so they couldn't do much about it) and send though as many people as they possibly need to take Destiny. resulting in possibly losing Destiny ad possibly blowing up Langara if the LA havent worked out what McKay had.

B. Use stones to infultrate pepople who they have every reason to believe to be enemies, find information to work out if they are friend or foe, demonstrate how they can safely dial and if they find them to be foe, they take the area by force with ground troups and Oddy. If they find them to be friend (and LA are threatening them) ask for forgiveness and offer to defend them in return for use of the gate. Maybe also provide them with some tech.

I would certainly go for B.

[Rylor]

It was at the very least an option to ask. If they wanted to take the facility by force (and I'm talking about a real invasion, not an "undercover" mission), they still could have. They had some vague clues at best.

The problem with McKay's solution is: People make mistakes. McKay has made mistakes ("Trinity") and Eli has made mistakes ("Twin Destinies"). Just because people think they are right, doesn't mean they are. I admit, McKay is brilliant scientist and I would probably trust him. But if the roles were reversed, I doubt Earth would simply believe a Langaran scientist, no matter how brilliant and risk the entire planet (remember: that is a very real risk, as we have seen on Icarus and the Lucian Alliance planet) and its population.

[thekillman]

Mckay has a few more credentials than any random Langaran scientist.


although he also has a record of planets blown up

[garhkal]

How amateurish can earth be ? bloody hell (or the writers didn't think it through )

All the trust earned through years of partnership lost in a single moment of madness. I mean even if the mission went as planned and the gate worked without the planet blowing up we would have still ended up losing the trust they had in us.

It would have been better if earth had provided security against the LA in the first place and given there scientists a couple of months to work it through and then dial destiny.

That's what happens at times, when you let the military override the bureaucratic heads..

A. Let the LA have control of a gate that can dial destiny (yet earth wouldn;t even know it was from the langara gate so they couldn't do much about it) and send though as many people as they possibly need to take Destiny. resulting in possibly losing Destiny ad possibly blowing up Langara if the LA havent worked out what McKay had.

While that is true, being the crew of destiny KNOW its coming, they can just evacuate the gateroom to space, like Young wanted to do with the first batch, but pussied out on.

The problem with McKay's solution is: People make mistakes. MyKay has made mistakes ("Trinity") and Eli has made mistakes ("Twin Destinies"). Just because people think they are right, doesn't mean they are

I was real surprised that cause BOTH have made big blunders, especially with eli's recent one, that everyone was willing to trust them so unequivocally.

[traylormatt]

It was at the very least an option to ask. If they wanted to take the facility by force (and I'm talking about a real invasion, not an "undercover" mission), they still could have. They had some vague clues at best.

The problem with McKay's solution is: People make mistakes. MyKay has made mistakes ("Trinity") and Eli has made mistakes ("Twin Destinies"). Just because people think they are right, doesn't mean they are. I admit, McKay is brilliant scientist and I would probably trust him. But if the roles were reversed, I doubt Earth would simply believe a Langaran scientist, no matter how brilliant and risk the entire planet (remember: that is a very real risk, as we have seen on Icarus and the Lucian Alliance planet) and its population.

You can't compare the best of Langara to the best of earth (who are using techniques and knowledge from Asgard and the Ancients. Compare our technology in the 1940s 50s compared to now. One of their engineers couldn't fathom how he could control something through such a small thing as a hand help computer)

And it was not just the opinion of Rodney or Eli, but the collective approval of all of Earth's beat minds. Big difference.

If they had asked and they WERE in cohorts with the LA then all that would have happened is the Langarans would have said no then told LA they were on to them and to either do another attack on earth to buy time OR they would have pushed up the Destiny mission in fear that Earth is suspecting and may try and take it by force. Asking would have helped nothing, at all.

[Rylor]

You can't compare the best of Langara to the best of earth (who are using techniques and knowledge from Asgard and the Ancients. Compare our technology in the 1940s 50s compared to now. One of their engineers couldn't fathom how he could control something through such a small thing as a hand help computer)

And it was not just the opinion of Rodney or Eli, but the collective approval of all of Earth's beat minds. Big difference.

If they had asked and they WERE in cohorts with the LA then all that would have happened is the Langarans would have said no then told LA they were on to them and to either do another attack on earth to buy time OR they would have pushed up the Destiny mission in fear that Earth is suspecting and may try and take it by force. Asking would have helped nothing, at all.

Just because they are more advanced doesn't mean they are right every time they open their mouths. The Langarans know that previous attempts to dial Destiny resulted in catastrophic consequences, so it would be foolish of them to take the word of a foreign scientist without bothering to check it first. Earth would have done the same thing, the risk is simply too great. We're talking about an inhabited planet here, there is practically no margin for error. Refusing the test for the moment was the only responsible thing to do.

Most of the scientists on Earth also agreed on the "dialling within a star" idea, and that didn't work out either.

They could have tried. I admit, it would probably have been more difficult to pull the operation off successfully and it is easy to view things in retrospect, but if they wanted, they could still have done it. Given the fact that we now know that the Langarans had no intention of siding with the Lucian Alliance, the entire situation could have been avoided. Unfortunately, we will probably will never see the repurcussions of this operation, so it is all up to speculation.

[D Toccs]

Mckay has a few more credentials than any random Langaran scientist.

Maybe so, but the Langarans wanting their own scientists to confirm his findings is entirely reasonable. Even Young wanted his own man (Eli) to confirm the findings before he bought into the plan.

The entire situation was a complete disaster. I can see how Colonel Jack O'Niell from SG1 season 1-3 could have ordered that mission, but not General Jack O'Niell.

I remember the SG1 episode Counterstrike when General Landry was going to Dakara to confront the Jaffa council about using the Dakara Device. Walter wanted him to take 2 SG teams with him, and Landry refused because he didn't want the diplomatic disaster of insulting the Jaffa on their home planet. He said, "Sometimes you make the right decision. Sometimes you make the decision right." This time Earth did neither

[norph]

Although whoever had ordered the mission is most likely at fault, they were also working with the assumption that the Langarans are already working with the LA. It only become a diplomatic disaster when they found out that the Langarans had been refusing the LA's proposals at this time. So I think the intelligence or whoever is interpreting the data they gathered from their spy satellites are also at fault.

Had the Langarans been found to be really working with LA and was about to dial the 9th chevron address without Mckay's solution, they might have turn out to be heroes especially if they prevent LA from blowing up the Langaran planet.

[ckwongau]

You can't compare the best of Langara to the best of earth (who are using techniques and knowledge from Asgard and the Ancients. Compare our technology in the 1940s 50s compared to now. One of their engineers couldn't fathom how he could control something through such a small thing as a hand help computer)

And it was not just the opinion of Rodney or Eli, but the collective approval of all of Earth's beat minds. Big difference.

The Key word here is "Earth's beat minds" or Best mind.

As i record , Mckay 's work with his Project Arcturus, After the death of one scientist , Mackay refuse to listen to anybody and continue until catastrophic overload which destory a large portion of a solar system.

The "Twin Destinies" epsiode Eli also has the collective approval of all of Earth's beat minds, which almost kill evey Destiny's crew member of one timeline.

It is irresponsible to risk the lives of another people 's world ,especailly without their consent.
Earth 's illegal attempt to dial without Langaran's apporoval ,with a limited time , Mackay probably had cut a few corner ,and mininize a number of safety procedure.It increase the risk significantly.

i think the incident could led to the Langara to become the Saudi Arabia situation of the Milkyway .

With their rich Naquadria reserve ,the Langaran will eventally become rich planet one day .
The latest incident would led many Langaran to distrust Earth, The Langaran government are force into a security arrangment with Earth to protect themself against Lucian Alliance.
The ordinary Langaran would see Earth as a foreign power only interest in there mineral reserve, and already risk their the lives of their entire planet ,and see Earth as no better than Anubis or Ori.

With the new security arrangment, many earth military officer will be visiting and staying on their planet , Many ordinary Langara will see it as foreign occupation.

And eventually all you need is one rich Langaran to fund a anti-Earth terroristmovement.

Earth is repeating the mistake with Saudi Arabia all over again

[traylormatt]

The Key word here is "Earth's beat minds" or Best mind.

As i record , Mckay 's work with his Project Arcturus, After the death of one scientist , Mackay refuse to listen to anybody and continue until catastrophic overload which destory a large portion of a solar system.

The "Twin Destinies" epsiode Eli also has the collective approval of all of Earth's beat minds, which almost kill evey Destiny's crew member of one timeline.

It is irresponsible to risk the lives of another people 's world ,especailly without their consent.
Earth 's illegal attempt to dial without Langaran's apporoval ,with a limited time , Mackay probably had cut a few corner ,and mininize a number of safety procedure.It increase the risk significantly.

i think the incident could led to the Langara to become the Saudi Arabia situation of the Milkyway .

With their rich Naquadria reserve ,the Langaran will eventally become rich planet one day .
The latest incident would led many Langaran to distrust Earth, The Langaran government are force into a security arrangment with Earth to protect themself against Lucian Alliance.
The ordinary Langaran would see Earth as a foreign power only interest in there mineral reserve, and already risk their the lives of their entire planet ,and see Earth as no better than Anubis or Ori.

With the new security arrangment, many earth military officer will be visiting and staying on their planet , Many ordinary Langara will see it as foreign occupation.

And eventually all you need is one rich Langaran to fund a anti-Earth terroristmovement.

Earth is repeating the mistake with Saudi Arabia all over again

I really think that people need to stop comparing the actions of a fictional television show to the past actions of humans, as though they have some kind of merit. What happens between countries within our world has absolutely no relevance to this show. Yes you can draw similarities, but there is a massive difference, in you know, that it is fictional and people behave how ever the writers will them to.

And you do record correctly. But I will make my point again, as people seem to ignore it. The difference is that in all other occasions where something has gone really wrong, one of the bigger players of the show has explained just how wrong it could go and why. This had none of that. There is a reason for that. Eli had Rush tell him he was wrong, Rodney had Zelenka.

And to believe that their people will suddenly hate Earth, well we have no idea what is disclosed to their people about the day to day actions of their stargate program. They may have full disclosure from the military (I dont mean telling the people about the program but rather the inner workings) or the military may keep a closed door on things. So possibly the only people to know are the military.

Without our intervention and the help of Jonas, their planet could have been destroyed. They are even younger than us, so who knows how long they can last with what is basically a bomb for a planet. They are also talking about burying the stargate - that would say bye bye to them becoming rich or even advancing as fast as we did. Langara will only get so far with their naquadria in terms of wealth. Clearly it has a capped output for power, coupled with it's explosive nature. The two most advanced races used other sources of power, and we have the complete knowledge of both of them, so it is only a matter of time until we find ways to build Asgard power sources and ZPMs (I say a matter of time, this could obviously be 5 years it could be 200 or it could be 1000, no one can speculate, but given that we have their knowledge and slowly beginning to interpret it, we will get there before other civilisations)

I also do not think that McKay was rushing. He has a specific set of things he needed to do before dialing and went through them. They were on a time limit but it is not the usual "you have 10 minutes to do something impossible" it was letting him implement what he had already laid out to do. But realistically, we simply do not know so you can not say "Probably cut a few corners"

[traylormatt]

Just because they are more advanced doesn't mean they are right every time they open their mouths. The Langarans know that previous attempts to dial Destiny resulted in catastrophic consequences, so it would be foolish of them to take the word of a foreign scientist without bothering to check it first. Earth would have done the same thing, the risk is simply too great. We're talking about an inhabited planet here, there is practically no margin for error. Refusing the test for the moment was the only responsible thing to do.

Most of the scientists on Earth also agreed on the "dialling within a star" idea, and that didn't work out either.

They could have tried. I admit, it would probably have been more difficult to pull the operation off successfully and it is easy to view things in retrospect, but if they wanted, they could still have done it. Given the fact that we now know that the Langarans had no intention of siding with the Lucian Alliance, the entire situation could have been avoided. Unfortunately, we will probably will never see the repurcussions of this operation, so it is all up to speculation.

I agree that they should have talked with them. But when dealing with people who (given earth's recent advances in technology) are at least 100 years behind you technologically all the way to hundreds of years. If you were dealing with people from the 1700s talking to them about saving some of your peoples lives, you wouldn't become frustrated when you tell them "hey just get in this plane, it is safe, we promise" but they cant understand how it works so they first want to get to a level of understanding to ensure it works. They said months, it could have taken much longer than that.

They couldn't ave tried for the reasons i pointed out. IF they were lying, all that Langara would have sad was "no". They didn;t trust them so had they said no, they still wouldn't have trusted them. It would have been an utterly pointless question. They could have said "We were worried you were in connection with the LA and we have intercepted a lot of chatter between you both. Can you explain this" So then they would have to show them proof. But even that wouldn't definitely be the truth as they could just give them fake documents.

And I will say what I said originally, there is a difference in that this time they had EVERYONE saying yes. Usually there is an obvious point made by the writers to say "we have doubts this will work" from Rush, Eli, Rodney, Zelenka, someone will say they have doubts. No one had doubts. So yes, everyone could be wrong. But the past has shown us that if something may go wrong then someone will say it. No one did this time. There is a big difference from "most" and "everyone"

[Steelbox]

They should have showed the intelligence they had about Langara and the LA talks. Would it be hard to say "i assure that we have dropped down any proposal they had for us". Also we are allies, doesn't allies protect each other? Why was there the need to "officially" protect Langara. What they could have done was to show Embassador Orvina and Administrator the Destiny and how they can gain with that and about our need of supplies.