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tomstone
March 29th, 2011, 09:29 AM
In the new light of what happened this Episode, the Stones dont seem as simple anymore as they used to be. I am not sure what the Ancients where thinking when making them, but this is just confusing.

This Episode makes the Questionmark even bigger why People are dying when connected to a dying body? I think now we can say for sure that the being itself gets transported with the stones and not just connected and if the concousness can survive, then why is the Person on the other end killed without their concousness returning to them?

That shouldnt be happening in this case, but ever since the Stones where introduced, People on both ends are dying even with the Original Ancient devices. WTH?

I can Imagine the Ancients going "When you get your Host Body killed you should die as well".

Kaiphantom
March 29th, 2011, 09:34 AM
The stones are becoming much like the Star Trek transporters. It's a piece of technology that continues to pop up one-shot issues that serve to create the plot of a story. They can do whatever it is the writers want them to, ie, it's not that far off from A Wizard Did It (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt).

I would have liked to see more restrictions on their use, such as a limited amount of times they can connect, or perhaps time to recharge between uses is fairly long. But as it stands, there is nothing preventing them from bringing more experts aboard Destiny (scientists, doctors, engineers, etc) and fixing the ship. Sure, they can't take data back. But an engineer, making regular visits, will learn to understand the ship's systems and can recreate them back on Earth.

In short, the writers are vague on the stones because they want the stones to be able to do anything they need them to. It's plot convenience, and nothing more.

Trinary
March 29th, 2011, 10:28 AM
On contrary, this episode might be the end of the stone to connect to Earth. Last episode there was question whether the SGC will support Destiny any longer. With Amanda and Ginn integrated into the ship system, it suffice to say both of them is enough to cover Earth and LA side aboard the destiny in any conditions.

With a huge Ancient's library database in the ship computer, both of them able to relay the information without spent hours or days in translating the contents. Kinda Matrix movie, those two could just load up required information from the database an the crew could proceed to finishing the task such as repairing the ship and finding supplies.

To bad the show has been canceled. Otherwise, there may be a lots of new things uncovered from the database could be made a several new episodes which is previously limited due to the time consuming translations process.

Kaiphantom
March 29th, 2011, 10:30 AM
As we see from next episode's preview, this isn't going to be the end of the stone-to-connect to Earth. It's back to working as usual, and Earth is using funds on the Destiny project.

The Swarm
March 29th, 2011, 12:23 PM
Yep, but we do get to see Amanda and Ginn interact with the crew again.... which makes me wonder why they didnt do the same to save Riley!
Becouse once they do reach the end of the mission and they somehow do get omnipotent powers its posible to restore them back.

Egle01
March 29th, 2011, 12:36 PM
which makes me wonder why they didnt do the same to save Riley!How could have they saved Riley? Have him connect with someone and then kill off both? They couldn't get him free and even if they had, he most likely would've died before making it to the Destiny and into the chair.

ArchaeoNerd
March 29th, 2011, 02:12 PM
I'm still fuzzy on just how Amanda and Ginn were able to be "merged" with Chloe. I don't remember Chloe swapping with either of them... Amanda swapped first with James (who couldn't handle the disability), then Wray, and finally Ginn. As far as I can recall Ginn only swapped with Amanda. How did Chloe get involved?

I know that people can leave an "imprint" on a stone and if it doesn't get wiped off, that person might wind up in a swap they didn't expect, like when James was swapped with a Blue Alien. Of course, this happened very soon after James had swapped with Amanda. In this case quite a lot of time has gone by since the death of Ginn and Amanda, and a bunch of people had used the stones in between. Maybe there is some kind of "buffer" in the stone system that could hold the consciousness of a person whose body had died in the midst of a swap, and then download their consciousness into another person who was using the stones?

ArchaeoNerd

garhkal
March 29th, 2011, 02:15 PM
Yep, but we do get to see Amanda and Ginn interact with the crew again.... which makes me wonder why they didnt do the same to save Riley!
Becouse once they do reach the end of the mission and they somehow do get omnipotent powers its posible to restore them back.

To have done anything with Riley, would have entailed getting him off that planet..

tomstone
March 29th, 2011, 02:27 PM
I'm still fuzzy on just how Amanda and Ginn were able to be "merged" with Chloe. I don't remember Chloe swapping with either of them... Amanda swapped first with James (who couldn't handle the disability), then Wray, and finally Ginn. As far as I can recall Ginn only swapped with Amanda. How did Chloe get involved?

I know that people can leave an "imprint" on a stone and if it doesn't get wiped off, that person might wind up in a swap they didn't expect, like when James was swapped with a Blue Alien. Of course, this happened very soon after James had swapped with Amanda. In this case quite a lot of time has gone by since the death of Ginn and Amanda, and a bunch of people had used the stones in between. Maybe there is some kind of "buffer" in the stone system that could hold the consciousness of a person whose body had died in the midst of a swap, and then download their consciousness into another person who was using the stones?

ArchaeoNerd

Apparently Chloe was near a Sleep state when this happened, therefor allowing the others to enter her. Thing with the Ancients is that we know that they were trained in very deep meditation, so it could be that the Stones where programmed in a way, that would allow someone to open themselfs up to remaining connections in the Stone network.

Trinary
March 29th, 2011, 02:46 PM
I'm still fuzzy on just how Amanda and Ginn were able to be "merged" with Chloe. I don't remember Chloe swapping with either of them... Amanda swapped first with James (who couldn't handle the disability), then Wray, and finally Ginn. As far as I can recall Ginn only swapped with Amanda. How did Chloe get involved?

I think a constant blackout happened to Chloe under Blue Alien influence and then removed may leave extra room that just enough for Amanda and Ginn consciousness to jump in. Instead of swapping consciousness, by activating the stone without the other end may release the dead people consciousness that trapped in the stone. With Chloe falling into sleep, it made easy for both consciousness to jump from the stone into Chloe's body. That what I was learn from the Fringe. Dead people consciousness were jump into another people that having a near dead moment.

Probably it wont be happening to other people other than Chloe because there not enough room for both consciousness that tied together when they died. May be, the expanded Chloe's brain capability altered by the Blue Alien were strong enough to allows both Amanda and Ginn to jump in.

Ekras
March 29th, 2011, 06:41 PM
Apparently Chloe was near a Sleep state when this happened, therefor allowing the others to enter her.

I dunno.... somehow that just doesn't sound right to me.....

s09119
March 29th, 2011, 08:31 PM
I dunno.... somehow that just doesn't sound right to me.....

We saw something similar happen with Daniel and Vala when they first used them, since there was only the use of a stone on one end. They overrode their hosts for a time until conditions allowed their hosts' consciousnesses to surface in their bodies.

Ekras
March 29th, 2011, 08:36 PM
We saw something similar happen with Daniel and Vala when they first used them, since there was only the use of a stone on one end. They overrode their hosts for a time until conditions allowed their hosts' consciousnesses to surface in their bodies.

Read the sentence again.

dgh64
March 29th, 2011, 10:39 PM
I'm still fuzzy on just how Amanda and Ginn were able to be "merged" with Chloe. I don't remember Chloe swapping with either of them... Amanda swapped first with James (who couldn't handle the disability), then Wray, and finally Ginn. As far as I can recall Ginn only swapped with Amanda. How did Chloe get involved?

I know that people can leave an "imprint" on a stone and if it doesn't get wiped off, that person might wind up in a swap they didn't expect, like when James was swapped with a Blue Alien. Of course, this happened very soon after James had swapped with Amanda. In this case quite a lot of time has gone by since the death of Ginn and Amanda, and a bunch of people had used the stones in between. Maybe there is some kind of "buffer" in the stone system that could hold the consciousness of a person whose body had died in the midst of a swap, and then download their consciousness into another person who was using the stones?

ArchaeoNerd

I don't think Ginn and Amanda's imprints were still on the stones. Eli described their consciousness as "signals" that were getting weaker. Chloe picked them up because she went to sleep while connected, so her own mind allowed the very weak signals to get through.

I agree that the way the stones work is a little inconsistent from one episode to another, but that's the way it's been all along with Stargate. The way the gate itself works, for example, has changed from time to time, with new rules popping up if the gate's close to a black hole or whatever. One of my favorite inconsistencies was when SG-1 was trapped on Thor's replicator-infested ship in Earth orbit, and they beamed the gate from the SGC onboard. Even though there was no power source connected, the gate itself still stored enough energy to dial out once, according to Major Davis. Yet when the Russians had a gate of their own, they could turn it off by just unplugging it and it immediately went dead.

Dregun
March 30th, 2011, 08:10 AM
My theory of the stones.

I think both Rush and Eli are/were wrong on how both Ginn and Amanda got back into Chloe. If we were to think of the stones like a simple communications device it requires direct input (a signal) from both sides to function (much like a telephone). Without 2 people connected their is nothing to transmit and it would explain why someones death would result into the death of the other because the consciousness is being continuously transferred between the hosts...however.

My thought is that the stones have some form of RAM that basically stores the consciousness of each individual into the stone itself and then transfers it through space to the other stone whereby it gets uploaded to the next person. With that being said the consciousness is first downloaded into the stones (thereby wiped from that individual--a clean slate), a copy is transfered and then uploaded to the new host. The downloading is important because at that time the consciousness of a "person" has been removed and placed inside the stone. I believe what happened to Ginn and Amanda was a fail safe in case someone's physical body was destroyed (killed) that the consciousness could still be viable for a new host (or healed host).

Each stone still has the consciousness stored within it while the people are moving about in others bodies. The "signal" Rush and Eli are talking about is simply updating the "backup" stored in the stone with newer memories. Much less information has to be transmitted when you're only dealing with the "present". NOT being transferred between each individual, the stones are the buffer; gathering the new memories from each host and storing them on the stones.

Imagine you're extremely worried about losing your data on your computer, you have 2 solutions for that problem. You could can make regular backups on your hard drive, creating new backups every time you feel it is necessary. Or you could install a Raid 1 drive and make a duplicate of everything you do. If your primary hard drive got destroyed you would be out of luck with option 1, option 2 however allows you to plug into that second drive and now you have your computer exactly the same as it was before. Even if you didn't start with a Raid 1 system you could make a "copy" of your primary hard drive and then the system would add information to it as you'd add information to your primary hard drive.


So what happened during their death is that their consciousness was still stored into the stones (raid 1 hard drive) waiting to be uploaded again into a new host once one of them died. This episode proved that a consciousness could be uploaded into a system (Destiny) so why wouldn't we make the leap that it is how the stones work by uploaded the consciousness into it and then transferring a "copy" of the consciousness to the other stone.

Such a thing would explain the "imprinting" of certain memories as well, since when the stones go to "wipe" the hosts conscious clean it might not get everything cleaned out before it uploads the original consciousness back into the host.

The death of both parties would be the result of the stones going into a failsafe mode and dumping both signals as to not damage the stones so it could preserve the consciousness. The degrading signal that was present during Ginn and Amanda's presence within Chloe was more with the fact that the stones are losing the ability to store those consciousness's for that extended period of time. Storing them wasn't difficult but updating them every time a consciousness would switch made it that much more difficult and possibly started to drain the stones energy/ability to make updates.

Just my theory on the stones.

ArchaeoNerd
March 30th, 2011, 11:32 AM
I like Dregun's theories. Perhaps the Pentagon stones suffered slight damage when the building collapsed? Maybe that would explain why the three women kept switching so frequently and the signals of Ginn and Amanda were getting weaker.

ArchaeoNerd

traylormatt
March 30th, 2011, 11:44 AM
Drgun, so you are saying you think, basically, that a consciousness downloads to the stone then when someone connects to the other stone all of the data switches. So person A connects to stone A (person and stone are now A) and person B connects to stone B (B and B) then the data switches in the stones. So now stone A now contains person B's information and stone B contains person A's consciousness?

If this is what you are meaning then I am unsure why they would lose the connection when they drop in and out of FTL. Unless you think that the information somehow switches in a matter of unpredicted moments.

dgh64
March 30th, 2011, 01:26 PM
This sounds like a good theory, with one major problem: When Daniel and Vala used the stones to go to the Ori galaxy, and they were about to die, Mitchell disconnected the devices by throwing the whole device into the gate's initial vortex, instantly destroying it. By your theory that should have destroyed Daniel and Vala's consciousnesses.

The stones are a much newer technology than Destiny's computers, so if the Ginn and Amanda "signals" were stored on the stones then they should not have degraded at all. They aren't fading away from the really really old ship's computer, so why would they fade away from stones, which are newer more advanced technology?

My theory is that the stones are just transmitters, like a wireless adapter for a laptop. If I'm reading this site and someone comes and smashes my laptop, the pages are still stored on the server and I can go to another computer and read them. Bad analogy, but you see the point, right?

Dregun
March 30th, 2011, 01:26 PM
traylor..

A-B - I'm thinking the data transmits between the stones only when the conciousness of those individuals is returned. So while Person A is with stone A all the data is transmitted back to stone A for new memories and the like. Once conciousness is changed the stones transmit that copy back to the other stone for uploading into Person B and Persons B stone would transmit that conciousness back to person A. It would also mean it can transfer that large amount of information 6 times in just a moment, as it would have to transmit

Store/Download Conciousness
Person A -> Stone A
Person B -> Stone B

Transmit Conciousness
Stone A -> Stone B
Stone B -> Stone A

Upload Conciousness
Stone A - Person B
Stone B - Person A

FTL -- Good point, it could be though that the signal that is downloading the new memories into the stones is being interupted and therefore the signal breaks for a moment. Yet to do so means that the stones can differentiate between a simple signal failure to complete loss of signal (ie death) or it wouldn't download the peoples original conciousness back into them.

As I said this was just my theory and with enough looking I'm sure more holes would come up. I don't want to make new rules everytime something comes along to disprove my theory, it would have to make sense and be explained with other things experienced with the stones. Unfortunatly my only knowledge of the stones comes from SGU, I didn't watch any other SG series. The idea that the signal would be trapped in space doesn't make much sense to me as a signal has an origin, the degration of the signal would be most severe the farther away from the original signal you were (I think). Therefore if the ship "isn't" in FTL the signal would be the strongest as they are not moving away from it...I think

s09119
March 30th, 2011, 02:56 PM
This sounds like a good theory, with one major problem: When Daniel and Vala used the stones to go to the Ori galaxy, and they were about to die, Mitchell disconnected the devices by throwing the whole device into the gate's initial vortex, instantly destroying it. By your theory that should have destroyed Daniel and Vala's consciousnesses.

The stones are a much newer technology than Destiny's computers, so if the Ginn and Amanda "signals" were stored on the stones then they should not have degraded at all. They aren't fading away from the really really old ship's computer, so why would they fade away from stones, which are newer more advanced technology?

My theory is that the stones are just transmitters, like a wireless adapter for a laptop. If I'm reading this site and someone comes and smashes my laptop, the pages are still stored on the server and I can go to another computer and read them. Bad analogy, but you see the point, right?

They were fading away from within Chloe, as her personality was increasingly retaking the parts of her subconscious they were stored in?

erotavlas
March 30th, 2011, 04:00 PM
I think the stones operate on something like quantum entanglement. For a pair of particles whatever effect occurs on one particle happens to the other particle no matter where in the universe they are. Thats why the stones work in pairs. They could be entangled themselves and also entangle whatever came in contact with them. For me this would be the only way to achieve the instantaneous effects we observe with the stones across any distance in the universe.

JoseP927
March 30th, 2011, 04:34 PM
I think the stones operate on something like quantum entanglement. For a pair of particles whatever effect occurs on one particle happens to the other particle no matter where in the universe they are. Thats why the stones work in pairs. They could be entangled themselves and also entangle whatever came in contact with them. For me this would be the only way to achieve the instantaneous effects we observe with the stones across any distance in the universe.

I think this is the intended theory. The other explanation regarding downloads & transmitting can't happen in real time, especially over the distance. Even RF can't pass through a wormhole back to Earth, at least without a long delay

norph
March 30th, 2011, 07:49 PM
There was a discussion last week on why would the ancients build a communication device where there is a danger of both users might die from it. And we learn from the past that ancient technology have alot of redundancies in them. Maybe the stones do have a protection mechanism where if something were to happen to any one of the users, the users would be stored temporary so that other ancients can fix what is wrong with the users before restoring them back.

I think it's only now that the destiny crew manage to accidentally activate this restore functionality.

garhkal
March 30th, 2011, 08:16 PM
I think a constant blackout happened to Chloe under Blue Alien influence and then removed may leave extra room that just enough for Amanda and Ginn consciousness to jump in...snip... May be, the expanded Chloe's brain capability altered by the Blue Alien were strong enough to allows both Amanda and Ginn to jump in.

I think it might be a combination of those 2 thoughts.. that she had a near death experience (if you will) under the blues care, and that they morphed her mind.

Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble
April 1st, 2011, 08:41 AM
The stones work via subspace so who says time works the same way, maybe once in subspace it does not matter where in the universe you are you can access the information anywhere.

I felt the situation in Hope seemed to suggest subspace acts like cloud storage which can store (although weak) the the person for later retrieval.

I believe rather than a direct mind transfer the processing takes place in the persons original body. Think of computer that takes over another on what you see on the screen changes and what the computer controls is the 'host' computer but the commands could originate from half way around the world.

I believe there is no actual transfer of consciousness can take place because it is held in the structure of the brain so unless the stones rewire your brain they cannot work.

Python
April 2nd, 2011, 03:47 PM
My theory of the Stones.

Mick Jagger did some of that stuff.

KEK
April 2nd, 2011, 06:22 PM
Just think, one of them could have hit three birds with one stone, so to speak... :lol:

Egle01
April 3rd, 2011, 01:50 AM
Just think, one of them could have hit three birds with one stone, so to speak... :lol:It kind of did, didn't it. :P

Trinary
April 4th, 2011, 04:19 AM
Probably the vast distance between destiny and earth the residue of the consciousness signals that emitted through space which is have yet reaching the other end. Since the stone has been modified to do just 2 ways consciousness swapping, The bounce back Chloe consciousness collecting leftover residue from Ginn and Mandy consciousness that fail to return to their own body cause by death.