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View Full Version : Anyone else still not buying the LA as the major antagonist?



droid327
March 26th, 2011, 11:59 AM
Granted, the tone of SG1/SGA was a little more gung-ho, but Cheyenne Mountain has stood up to the likes of the System Lords and Anubis. Yes, I know the Asgard were watching our butt at the time. It still seems really weird that they're now so completely vulnerable to what's essentially the Space Yakuza.

Cloaked cargo ship, naquadriah bomb...fine, sure. I'll accept that they're somehow able to source naquadriah (something that, presumably, only occurred "naturally" on Jonas' homeworld and only a handful of people in the galaxy know how to synthesize). I'll accept that, after all this time, they havent figured out a way to break a cargo ship's cloak (with the Asgard database now, no less), even though for years they've been talking about cloaked cargo ships as a potential weapons delivery device.

But come on, the amount of infiltration in the SGC, really? Case in point, how do you get one of your own guys in uniform on the base? Dont they check ID badges when you come in, dont they check against the duty schedule to see if you exist? Wouldnt you eventually trigger some shibboleth to the other airman that, you know, you're not from Earth and you dont know what a McDonalds is?

It just seems like it should take a lot more than one pilot with a crude bomb and a cloaked ship to take out SGC. If it was that easy, you gotta believe someone else woulda tried it by now :P

I know they cant just keep coming up with bigger and badder enemies, from Goa'uld to Anubis to Ori. I just think they havent really done a good job of establishing the LA as a credible menace, they've only really done a good job of making the SGC seem like they're slacking off and letting their guard down.

chrono trigger
March 26th, 2011, 12:06 PM
Granted, the tone of SG1/SGA was a little more gung-ho, but Cheyenne Mountain has stood up to the likes of the System Lords and Anubis. Yes, I know the Asgard were watching our butt at the time. It still seems really weird that they're now so completely vulnerable to what's essentially the Space Yakuza.

Cloaked cargo ship, naquadriah bomb...fine, sure. I'll accept that they're somehow able to source naquadriah (something that, presumably, only occurred "naturally" on Jonas' homeworld and only a handful of people in the galaxy know how to synthesize). I'll accept that, after all this time, they havent figured out a way to break a cargo ship's cloak (with the Asgard database now, no less), even though for years they've been talking about cloaked cargo ships as a potential weapons delivery device.

But come on, the amount of infiltration in the SGC, really? Case in point, how do you get one of your own guys in uniform on the base? Dont they check ID badges when you come in, dont they check against the duty schedule to see if you exist? Wouldnt you eventually trigger some shibboleth to the other airman that, you know, you're not from Earth and you dont know what a McDonalds is?

It just seems like it should take a lot more than one pilot with a crude bomb and a cloaked ship to take out SGC. If it was that easy, you gotta believe someone else woulda tried it by now :P

I know they cant just keep coming up with bigger and badder enemies, from Goa'uld to Anubis to Ori. I just think they havent really done a good job of establishing the LA as a credible menace, they've only really done a good job of making the SGC seem like they're slacking off and letting their guard down.

i agree i think sgu made a big mistake bringing the lucian alliance in.

DigiFluid
March 26th, 2011, 12:19 PM
No, I don't agree. And I think there's valid explanations for pretty much every complaint you've just made.

s09119
March 26th, 2011, 12:24 PM
No, I don't agree. And I think there's valid explanations for pretty much every complaint you've just made.

Seconded. They've made excellent Milky Way antagonists so far.

Ukko
March 26th, 2011, 12:34 PM
Didnt this thread used to be bigger?

Lianne
March 26th, 2011, 12:44 PM
I agree. The only small remark I remeber about lucian alliance is from SG1 episode, where they had the problem with the purple corn (kassa? or what was it...)

Since then, LA is stuck in my head as some minor gang, and it could be either with my lack of interest or other things, that it never made into serious bad guy. I still don´t pay attention to the LA plot at all. I just don´t/ can´t/ believe it´s seriousness.

magictrick
March 26th, 2011, 12:44 PM
I know they cant just keep coming up with bigger and badder enemies, from Goa'uld to Anubis to Ori. I just think they havent really done a good job of establishing the LA as a credible menace, they've only really done a good job of making the SGC seem like they're slacking off and letting their guard down.

I think that is the reason where all your problems stem from regarding the Lucian Alliance. I also think a lot of it has to do with how they were portrayed in SG-1 which is an incompetent group of mercenaries. They did a good job trying to alter their image in season 1 of SGU, but I think a lot of people still think of them as what we saw in SG-1 and then find it hard to believe all that they've done to successfully infiltrate and attack Earth.

I know when I hear Lucian Alliance my first thought is of Katan their leader from SG-1 as opposed to the leader that helped LA get on destiny (Rhona Mirta forget the character's name).

escyos
March 26th, 2011, 01:08 PM
I buy it, really not that far of a stretch.....

Greenfire32
March 26th, 2011, 01:23 PM
agreed.

hedwig
March 26th, 2011, 01:31 PM
I thought the SGC had been closed down when Cheyenne Mountain did, and thus the gate got moved elsewhere (somewhere closer to the Pentagon and Washington D.C.). I haven't seen the latest SGU episodes, so am not sure what the talk about the SGC and the L.A. is about. :confused:

Browncoat1984
March 26th, 2011, 01:37 PM
It actually reminds me of the Ferengi in Star Trek TNG vs. the Ferengi in Star Trek DS9. In the early TNG episodes where we met the Ferengi, they were portrayed as much more Klingon like and vicious (remember those wierd whip-like weapons they had that never showed up again?) DS9 changed that and from DS9 on (except for maybe the earlier episodes) the Ferengi were the comics of the Trek universe, so watching the early Ferengi episodes is hard given how much they changed from TNG to DS9.

The Lucian Alliance have the same problem, but the opposite. In SG-1 they were portrayed as a bit less ruthless than in SG-1 so in SGU they seem very different. I think another big problem is that they were introduced towards the end of SG-1 when the focus was more on the Ori and Baal so those villains always overshadowed the LA and they never really had a chance to take the limelight. Not like the Replicators, who had their shining moments. I think had SG-1 continued that the LA would have appeared more as a serious villain.

That being said, I actually like what SGU has done to the LA. It does make sense that you would have power groups move in and try to replace the Go'auld and SGU has done a good job IMO in presenting the LA as a formidable enemy to the Milky Way galaxy.

ultimategurion
March 26th, 2011, 02:05 PM
The Lucian Alliance attacked Homeworld Command, not the SGC, which is still in Cheyenne Mountain until an actual episode of Stargate says otherwise. Why would the real life closing of NORAD mean the fictional moving of the SGC?

I enjoy SGU, but, in terms of plot it's a huge disconnect from the previous two shows. By the end of SG-I, the Jaffa seem to be far better candidates for a threat to Earth. After all, they're bred to be superior soldiers, it's apparent that some of them still rely on Goa'uld for their strength, they've inherited the bulk of their masters' play things, they have a shaky but viable government. Granted, many Jaffa consider humans their allies, but I was under the impression from SG-1 that many more held humans in contempt.

Then there's the whole Trust situation that vanished into the plot hole monster's gullet. You know, the Goa'uld who had infiltrated the American and Russian governments that nearly caused WW III? They didn't go anywhere. We didn't kill them all. Ba'al being executed didn't cause all the Goa'uld to magically disappear. And then there's Senator Kinsey. But all of that conveniently disappears without any resolution. That's weak writing.

And all of that Ori technology left over after that conflict? Think about it; wars are messy affairs. Mines and other ordnance left over from conflicts that ended decades ago lay in wait today. You expect me to believe that the MASSIVE Ori invasion force that nearly converted all of our galaxy didn't leave stuff behind when they returned to their galaxy (assuming they returned to their galaxy; from how Ark of Truth played out and considering how subsequent Atlantis and Universe episodes played out, all that stuff magically vanished just like the Trust did).

But no. The Lucian Alliance, who in SG-1 were a bumbling bunch of corn farmers who couldn't maintain a reliable semblance of government are now THE BIG BAD.

Python
March 26th, 2011, 02:47 PM
They haven't done a very good job of establishing motive. The Goa'uld and Ori wanted to be worshipped. That's a very different and more interesting motive than just "power" which is bland and generic.

Pharaoh Atem
March 26th, 2011, 05:16 PM
i agree i think sgu made a big mistake bringing the lucian alliance in.

and i think the opposite the LA have put earth in a situation it can't easily deal with.

Greenfire32
March 26th, 2011, 06:01 PM
I thought the SGC had been closed down when Cheyenne Mountain did, and thus the gate got moved elsewhere (somewhere closer to the Pentagon and Washington D.C.)

What are you on about? When was it established that the SGC closed shop? I thought the whole purpose of "Unending" was to show us that while SG-1 is over, they're still out there.

Gollumpus
March 26th, 2011, 07:55 PM
I don't have a problem with the LA as the *current* major antagonist. They are the logical choices for a group to take advantage of the power vacuum left with the departure of the goa'uld. Other groups might be slower to take advantage of the situation.

However, if the SG franchise continues for years to come, I imagine that a different antagonist would have to be developed. Assuming a Milky Way based show, I suspect it would have to be someone we have already met. Candidates might be: replicators (yes, I'm tired of them as well); the Aschen might expand with the absence of the goa'uld; or the aliens from "Foothold" could be brought forward, assuming they were able to gain control of another Milky Way planet. They could also be used as a tie-in with SGU as these guys are supposed to be from a different galaxy.

Why would it be an known foe? The reason for this is that there has been a lot of exploration of the MW through the stargate. We would have already heard of a different race, even if only in rumours. Yes, the galaxy is a *BIG* place and we have only visited a small number of planets. This being said, I see what the SGC has done as being a scatter gun effect in exploration. They would have covered as much territory as possible: divide the galaxy in half; quarter it; then to eighths and so on. Assuming you meet an advanced race in any one of those sections who want share information you would find out about a new potential threat.

The goa'uld were the top dogs for thousands of years and they had already wiped out most of their potential threats. There wouldn't be a lot of options for a homegrown enemy except from a list similar to what we already know (this includes the "Foothold" aliens), and if they wanted an external threat then the "Foothold" aliens fill that bill.

regards,
G.

D Toccs
March 26th, 2011, 08:49 PM
Cloaked cargo ship, naquadriah bomb...fine, sure. I'll accept that they're somehow able to source naquadriah (something that, presumably, only occurred "naturally" on Jonas' homeworld and only a handful of people in the galaxy know how to synthesize).

The Goa'uld created naquadariah, the LA had a base on a former Goa'uld world which had a naquadriah core. It seems perfectly logical that the LA would mine some of the naquadriah for weapons purposes while they were working on dialing Destiny.


But come on, the amount of infiltration in the SGC, really? Case in point, how do you get one of your own guys in uniform on the base? Dont they check ID badges when you come in, dont they check against the duty schedule to see if you exist? Wouldnt you eventually trigger some shibboleth to the other airman that, you know, you're not from Earth and you dont know what a McDonalds is?

I assume you're referring to "airman" Evans. He was not an infiltrator in the base, he was the pilot of the cargo ship. As Wray theorized the original plan was probably to land the the ship nearby or on the roof and then the pilot just walks away. The reason he had the uniform on was so that he wouldn't be noticed when he walked away, not so that he could infiltrate the building.


It just seems like it should take a lot more than one pilot with a crude bomb and a cloaked ship to take out SGC. If it was that easy, you gotta believe someone else woulda tried it by now :P

The only reason that the Goa'uld didn't try was because first they were afraid of the Asgard and didn't want to break the PPT, and then they were afraid of the Ancient weapons platform.

The Lucian Alliance seem perfectly credible as an enemy to me. Unlike the Goa'uld or the Ori the LA are not an evil empire bent on galactic domination that goes around enslaving people, they are just a large scale criminal organization and the SGC is combating them accordingly with undercover operatives and sabotaging kassa shipments. The LA/Earth war is a war that is fought with infiltration and subterfuge.

the fifth man
March 26th, 2011, 09:22 PM
and i think the opposite the LA have put earth in a situation it can't easily deal with.

I totally agree. I think they have made the Lucian Alliance a very credible foe. I have no problem with them being the major problem for Earth at the moment.

Replicator Todd
March 26th, 2011, 10:37 PM
I totally agree. I think they have made the Lucian Alliance a very credible foe. I have no problem with them being the major problem for Earth at the moment.

Indeed! I am loving TPTB for putting the Lucian Alliance into SGU. Its great to have a enemy from SG1 expand into a different part of the franchise.

Dii-Reno
March 26th, 2011, 11:05 PM
I just have a hard time figuring out why the LA should care about earth or it's off world military bases. Wasn't the LA said to have control over a dozen or so worlds? In the grand scheme of things thats a drop in a very large bucket. With the estimated billions of planets in our galaxy, there is plenty of room to share between the LA, Jafa, and Earth.

Besides, using WMDs is a slippery slope. The LA knows we have the ability to put down bombs just as easily as they do. It's called mutually assured self destruction. If they cloak bomb us we cloak bomb them. After any attack we would lay planet busters on their worlds. Stargate command would have a detailed record of their installations.

It just seems like a week attempt by the writers to draw parallels between the LA and real world terrorism. They have to have a milky way antagonist, so they draw an example from the real world. The only problem is, the only reason we have trouble with terrorism is because we all live so close together. With 7 billion people living on the same rock, there is bound to be some trouble.

thekillman
March 26th, 2011, 11:56 PM
have you forgotten that SG1 quite heavily messed with their affairs?

the LA can not freely exist because the IOA won't tolerate it's existence. it's seen as a crime group. Earth is a thorn in THEIR side, just as they are a thorn in ours.

the Lucian alliance wants to destroy us because we are THE most pain-in-the-ass race out there. the jaffa care but not THAT much since they have plenty of trouble. with major threats gone, our billion dollar intergalactic warships have to aim their APBW's at SOMETHING. with the LA infiltrating us and supressing people, they are our next enemy. and by doing that, the LA want us dead

Analog
March 27th, 2011, 04:52 AM
I agree that the Lucian Alliance is a perfectly acceptable threat. Heck, even Old-Varro (whatever the bounty hunter's name was from SG-1) managed to catch Mitchell while taking out other bounty hunters in his way. And they've had a few years to progress since then.


I don't have a problem with the LA as the *current* major antagonist. They are the logical choices for a group to take advantage of the power vacuum left with the departure of the goa'uld. Other groups might be slower to take advantage of the situation.

However, if the SG franchise continues for years to come, I imagine that a different antagonist would have to be developed. Assuming a Milky Way based show, I suspect it would have to be someone we have already met. Candidates might be: replicators (yes, I'm tired of them as well); the Aschen might expand with the absence of the goa'uld; or the aliens from "Foothold" could be brought forward, assuming they were able to gain control of another Milky Way planet. They could also be used as a tie-in with SGU as these guys are supposed to be from a different galaxy....

I hadn't thought about the Aschen as a major antagonist... I absolutely love that idea! Now we just need a fourth SG series....


Rock on.

Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble
March 27th, 2011, 05:06 AM
the Killman is right he speakth the truth.

xxxevilgrinxxx
March 27th, 2011, 06:07 AM
the LA make a great enemy, mostly because it's not some wacky aliens but because it's us.

One guy with a crude bomb couldn't accomplish much? Apparently you don't watch much news :)

Petra
March 27th, 2011, 07:31 AM
Speaking as someone who despised the LA in SG-1, finding them too stupid and unbelievable not to cringe whenever they were on screen, let alone take them seriously, and who was VERY sceptic and wary when heard they were going to be a major Big Bad on SGU (you can check my old posts ;)) I must say I've been very pleasantly surprised by their portrayal in SGU. I buy it/them completely and happily.

This is what the LA should have been from the start. Had instead of the Natan The Idiot I could watch Kiva, my opinion of the last 2 seasons of SG-1 could have been very different. Alas, that was not the case. But you know what they say, right? Better late than never. :)


Granted, the tone of SG1/SGA was a little more gung-ho, but Cheyenne Mountain has stood up to the likes of the System Lords and Anubis. Yes, I know the Asgard were watching our butt at the time.

Did it? You do remember the circumstances in which the Earth/SGC/SG-1 were usually saved, don't you? Because when I think about it I remember how lucky SG-1 was and how much help we had from our allies. There aren't many situations where we stood up to the Goa'uld, the Replicators or the Ori completely on our own. In fact, all the episodes presenting AUs or ATs were all about how Earth failed without its allies, struggling to fight alone.


It still seems really weird that they're now so completely vulnerable to what's essentially the Space Yakuza.

Oh well, if Yakuza or Cosa Nostra or any other mafia are such negligible threats why exactly our law enforcements have been struggling with them for decades in vain? If they are so easy to defeat, why hasn't it happen yet? Why so many people are vulnerable to mafias' actions and have their lives destroyed by them?


But come on, the amount of infiltration in the SGC, really? Case in point, how do you get one of your own guys in uniform on the base? Dont they check ID badges when you come in, dont they check against the duty schedule to see if you exist? Wouldnt you eventually trigger some shibboleth to the other airman that, you know, you're not from Earth and you dont know what a McDonalds is?

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think the HWS (NOT the SGC as we haven't seen it yet on SGU) has been infiltrated? It was clearly said in the episode that the plan was to park the ship with the bomb and for the pilot to leave. Not a word about infiltration. As for the uniform, he could have gotten it from the same source as the files, or from such storage room, or from somebody dead after the explosion. There are dozens of possible explanations without bringing infiltration to the mix.


It just seems like it should take a lot more than one pilot with a crude bomb and a cloaked ship to take out SGC.

Which is why the SGC hasn't been taken out. The attack was on Homeworld Command. We don't know anything about what's going on with the SGC. Besides, that's why it was always underground - so the attacks like this one would have been totally ineffective.


I agree. The only small remark I remeber about lucian alliance is from SG1 episode, where they had the problem with the purple corn (kassa? or what was it...)

Actually, the episode you are thinkg of was in season 9. Apart from it there was a number of other episodes featuring the LA in both season 9 & 10, so it's not like they lacked screentime (unfortunately :()


I think that is the reason where all your problems stem from regarding the Lucian Alliance. I also think a lot of it has to do with how they were portrayed in SG-1 which is an incompetent group of mercenaries. They did a good job trying to alter their image in season 1 of SGU, but I think a lot of people still think of them as what we saw in SG-1 and then find it hard to believe all that they've done to successfully infiltrate and attack Earth.

I think you are right.
The LA in SGU is truly a force to be reckon with and a formidable threat, but if one sees them as those bumbling idiots from SG-1 it's no wonder one can't take them seriously.


I know when I hear Lucian Alliance my first thought is of Katan their leader from SG-1 as opposed to the leader that helped LA get on destiny (Rhona Mirta forget the character's name).

It's Kiva :)

Personally, when I hear about the LA my first thought is: but which version? The LA from SG-1 or SGU? Logically I know they are supposed to be the same but I just can't see them as such.



The Lucian Alliance have the same problem, but the opposite. In SG-1 they were portrayed as a bit less ruthless than in SG-1 so in SGU they seem very different. I think another big problem is that they were introduced towards the end of SG-1 when the focus was more on the Ori and Baal so those villains always overshadowed the LA and they never really had a chance to take the limelight. Not like the Replicators, who had their shining moments. I think had SG-1 continued that the LA would have appeared more as a serious villain.

That being said, I actually like what SGU has done to the LA. It does make sense that you would have power groups move in and try to replace the Go'auld and SGU has done a good job IMO in presenting the LA as a formidable enemy to the Milky Way galaxy.

:indeed: :indeed:


Why would the real life closing of NORAD mean the fictional moving of the SGC?

Why wouldn't it? At the time when it happened there was much talking and discussing here on the forum what would it mean for the fictional world of SG-1 so I can see why hedwig asked about it.


Then there's the whole Trust situation that vanished into the plot hole monster's gullet. You know, the Goa'uld who had infiltrated the American and Russian governments that nearly caused WW III? They didn't go anywhere. We didn't kill them all. Ba'al being executed didn't cause all the Goa'uld to magically disappear. And then there's Senator Kinsey. But all of that conveniently disappears without any resolution. That's weak writing.

Maybe we did. As that plot was never revisited you can think what you like and fill in the blanks. Personally, no matter how much I love Full Alert I choose to believe that all the Goa'ulds and Trust operatives were captured and gotten rid of and the subplot is finished once and for all. For good this time. It'd been going on for too long already, IMO.

Goa'uld!Kinsey may be saved to appear in some future SG-1 movie.

As for the Jaffa, I won't comment as I absolutely despise what was done to their portrayal in the last 2 seasons. The Jaffa from the first 8 seasons wouldn't make good Earth adversaries at all.


And all of that Ori technology left over after that conflict? Think about it; wars are messy affairs. Mines and other ordnance left over from conflicts that ended decades ago lay in wait today. You expect me to believe that the MASSIVE Ori invasion force that nearly converted all of our galaxy didn't leave stuff behind when they returned to their galaxy (assuming they returned to their galaxy; from how Ark of Truth played out and considering how subsequent Atlantis and Universe episodes played out, all that stuff magically vanished just like the Trust did).

I'm not sure what you are saying here. How would the junk left behind by the Ori fit into a show about Destiny? And besides, wouldn't it be useless? Wasn't all their advanced tech operated by the Priors using the Ori energy? I thought that with the Ori and the Priors gone their technology no longer works. :confused:

Also, there would be a small matter of further alienating/dividing fandom. Not everyone liked the last 2 seasons of SG-1. In fact I know plenty of folks who pretend that seasons 9&10 never happened and they wouldn't be thrilled with their leftovers showing up in a completely new show. ;)


They haven't done a very good job of establishing motive. The Goa'uld and Ori wanted to be worshipped. That's a very different and more interesting motive than just "power" which is bland and generic.

Hmm, I'll give you that. I know why the LA wanted to board the Destiny but the reasons for attacking Earth seem to be pretty vague. Then again, my guess would be that it's all somehow explained in and connected with the 3rd SG-1 movie that was supposed to be out by now.


What are you on about? When was it established that the SGC closed shop? I thought the whole purpose of "Unending" was to show us that while SG-1 is over, they're still out there.

I think what hedwig meant to say (feel free to correct me hon) wasn't that the SGC was closed permanently or the teams ceased to go through the Gate but rather that with the closure of the Cheyenne Mountain in RL it's possible that the fictional SGC was moved somewhere else too.


It just seems like a week attempt by the writers to draw parallels between the LA and real world terrorism. They have to have a milky way antagonist, so they draw an example from the real world. The only problem is, the only reason we have trouble with terrorism is because we all live so close together. With 7 billion people living on the same rock, there is bound to be some trouble.

Huh? And how is it different from drawing parallels between the Ori and the crusades/expansion of islam (or christianity, depends how you interpret it)? May I remind you that the Ori arrived from the other galaxy so they had in fact even more space to expand on without attacking us?

Also, terrorist themes have always been present in Stargate. Remember Ree'tou terrorist commandos in season 2 or Jaffa sent on suicide missions with bombs strapped to their chests in season 5? Why was it ok for SG-1 but suddenly it's not ok for SGU? :rolleyes:

Dii-Reno
March 27th, 2011, 08:54 AM
Huh? And how is it different from drawing parallels between the Ori and the crusades/expansion of islam (or christianity, depends how you interpret it)? May I remind you that the Ori arrived from the other galaxy so they had in fact even more space to expand on without attacking us?

Also, terrorist themes have always been present in Stargate. Remember Ree'tou terrorist commandos in season 2 or Jaffa sent on suicide missions with bombs strapped to their chests in season 5? Why was it ok for SG-1 but suddenly it's not ok for SGU? :rolleyes:

The ori are religious crusaders. Crusaders don't care about distance or the amount of resources they pour into something. The same can be said for the gould. The wraith were driven by their need to feed. The Ree'tou were xenophobes who would attack anyone they ran into. That is hardly terrorism.

The LA on the other hand is a profit driven organization. Why should they give a **** about some planet on the other side of the galaxy. Even if SG1 started to disrupt their supply lines all they would do is set up better security to ensure production wasn't slowed. Going out of their way to attack earth isn't profitable. All it would do is piss us off and guarantee that we paid more attention to their business.

ultimategurion
March 27th, 2011, 12:05 PM
Why wouldn't it? At the time when it happened there was much talking and discussing here on the forum what would it mean for the fictional world of SG-1 so I can see why hedwig asked about it.

That's all well and good, but confusing fan speculation with reality doesn't make it so. Until an episode or a film set in the SG-1/Atlantis/Universe continuity explicitly states or shows that the SGC has been moved to a different location, such speculation holds no water.


Maybe we did. As that plot was never revisited you can think what you like and fill in the blanks. Personally, no matter how much I love Full Alert I choose to believe that all the Goa'ulds and Trust operatives were captured and gotten rid of and the subplot is finished once and for all. For good this time. It'd been going on for too long already, IMO.

Too bad there isn't a single episode or film to support this fan speculation. No, the sub-plot was never resolved; it was simply dropped. One minute the trust are manipulating world governments and businesses and planting a bomb on Atlantis, and the next moment the writers conveniently drop the whole affair because they want to write other stories. As a writer, I can understand growing tired of a story you've been working on for a long time, but if you've invested several seasons of your franchise into this plot only to abruptly drop it, you're a lazy writer.



Goa'uld!Kinsey may be saved to appear in some future SG-1 movie.


Don't hold your breath for any Stargate movie any time soon.


I'm not sure what you are saying here. How would the junk left behind by the Ori fit into a show about Destiny?

Superior technology that can easily cripple Earth ships and put Goa'uld technology to shame... Why would the Lucian Alliance ever want that?


And besides, wouldn't it be useless? Wasn't all their advanced tech operated by the Priors using the Ori energy? I thought that with the Ori and the Priors gone their technology no longer works. :confused:

Well, the priors were the only people who could use their staffs and use the control chairs in the ships because they were manipulated by the Ori to have the ancient gene. But the technology the Ori army used was built and operated by the army. The Ori themselves are killed by the san gral, yet their army still operates their ships, guns, the Supergate, etc.


Also, there would be a small matter of further alienating/dividing fandom. Not everyone liked the last 2 seasons of SG-1. In fact I know plenty of folks who pretend that seasons 9&10 never happened and they wouldn't be thrilled with their leftovers showing up in a completely new show. ;)

Funny thing you should mention the left overs of seasons 9 and 10. That's kind of where the Lucian Aliance came from.

thekillman
March 27th, 2011, 12:12 PM
destiny = ancient tech
ori = distantly ancient tech.

i can see the connection. quite a lot of major ancient tech is taken by earth, surely the LA would want some of it. even if it was just to deny earth the tech

hedwig
March 27th, 2011, 12:20 PM
What are you on about? When was it established that the SGC closed shop? I thought the whole purpose of "Unending" was to show us that while SG-1 is over, they're still out there.

This is from the transcript of "Air, p. 1":


CARTER: Twelve. Eighty-plus M.I.A. The bunker shielding technology prevented us from beaming out anyone inside. How many people made it through the Gate to Earth?

O'NEILL: None.

CARTER: None?! Our sensors indicated that the Stargate was active for a full six minutes before the core went critical.

O'NEILL: Well, they didn't come through here.

(Carter looks at him, bewildered.)

CARTER: Then where'd they go?

After this episode aired, there was a lot of speculation on this forum about the bolded bit. While it could be taken to mean the SGC, there was a lot of discussion about the notion of the gate apparently having been moved closer to Washington, D.C., which would make Jack's comment a bit more understandable for some people. And since Walter was seen in some of the earlier episodes at the Pentagon, working with Jack, it was thought that if Walter was no longer at the SGC (since he had been there the previous 10 years - including the two or so after Jack left for the Pentagon), then maybe the gate wasn't either. And, yes, I understand that just because Walter left the SGC, it doesn't follow that the gate would as well. However, that was the gist of some of the discussion here on Gateworld, and there was speculation as to just where the gate might have been moved. And if it had been moved, then the SGC would likely have been shut down as well. It doesn't have to make sense to everyone, since pretty much everyone has their own ideas about what did or did not happen.


Just out of curiosity, what makes you think the HWS (NOT the SGC as we haven't seen it yet on SGU) has been infiltrated? It was clearly said in the episode that the plan was to park the ship with the bomb and for the pilot to leave. Not a word about infiltration. As for the uniform, he could have gotten it from the same source as the files, or from such storage room, or from somebody dead after the explosion. There are dozens of possible explanations without bringing infiltration to the mix.

Which is why the SGC hasn't been taken out. The attack was on Homeworld Command. We don't know anything about what's going on with the SGC. Besides, that's why it was always underground - so the attacks like this one would have been totally ineffective.

Makes sense to me. I'm not sure how big this bomb was supposed to be (don't have Syfy anymore, so haven't watched the episode yet), but it would have to be pretty big to get as deep at 19+ levels to damage the SGC.


Why wouldn't it? At the time when it happened there was much talking and discussing here on the forum what would it mean for the fictional world of SG-1 so I can see why hedwig asked about it.

:indeed:


I think what hedwig meant to say (feel free to correct me hon) wasn't that the SGC was closed permanently or the teams ceased to go through the Gate but rather that with the closure of the Cheyenne Mountain in RL it's possible that the fictional SGC was moved somewhere else too.

double :indeed: :D

Greenfire32
March 27th, 2011, 12:58 PM
This is from the transcript of "Air, p. 1":
After this episode aired, there was a lot of speculation on this forum about the bolded bit. While it could be taken to mean the SGC, there was a lot of discussion about the notion of the gate apparently having been moved closer to Washington, D.C.
Seriously? All that means is that they didn't gate to Earth.

SGC is still there until someone actually says it isn't.

hedwig
March 27th, 2011, 01:21 PM
Seriously? All that means is that they didn't gate to Earth.

SGC is still there until someone actually says it isn't.

In case you didn't read it, here's the last line of my comment to refresh your memory:


It doesn't have to make sense to everyone, since pretty much everyone has their own ideas about what did or did not happen.

ultimategurion
March 27th, 2011, 01:28 PM
In case you didn't read it, here's the last line of my comment to refresh your memory:


It doesn't have to make sense to everyone, since pretty much everyone has their own ideas about what did or did not happen.


As fun as fan speculation is, it isn't cannon.

D Toccs
March 27th, 2011, 05:23 PM
Maybe we did. As that plot was never revisited you can think what you like and fill in the blanks. Personally, no matter how much I love Full Alert I choose to believe that all the Goa'ulds and Trust operatives were captured and gotten rid of and the subplot is finished once and for all. For good this time. It'd been going on for too long already, IMO.


Too bad there isn't a single episode or film to support this fan speculation. No, the sub-plot was never resolved; it was simply dropped. One minute the trust are manipulating world governments and businesses and planting a bomb on Atlantis, and the next moment the writers conveniently drop the whole affair because they want to write other stories. As a writer, I can understand growing tired of a story you've been working on for a long time, but if you've invested several seasons of your franchise into this plot only to abruptly drop it, you're a lazy writer.

The Trust storyline wasn't completely dropped. In Season 10 Agent Barret talks about how the NID are still investigating the Trust and describes it as a "global conspiracy". In SGA episode Miller's Crossing which is from season 4 and therefore after SG1 is finished, The Trust were one of the top suspects in the kidnapping of McKay's sister and Agent Barret gives every indication that the NID are still investigating them.

I've always seen the Trust storyline as tangential to the main arc of the the shows. Since it involves mainly the NID trying to ferret out the conspiracy, it makes sense that the SGC or Atlantis Expedition would only be involved in the case of a major threat such as Full Alert or the bomb on Atlantis.
I started a thread in the SGU general discussion a while back about how I felt the Trust could easily be incorporated into an episode or 2 of SGU.

Wayston
March 28th, 2011, 03:12 AM
I buy them as a major antagonist, it makes sense actually provided they have method of maintaining unity in their ranks. For example maybe they have formed a sort of nazi regime where there are many different factions with a common goal (e.g. something to do with the background radiation message) vying for power both internally and externally but due to the common goal the leaders of the factions are more civilized towards their collegues and their use of violence is mostly confined to the outside world

ultimategurion
March 28th, 2011, 03:38 AM
I buy x because I can imagine it being that way does little to address the reality of sloppy writing. That's the problem with trying to attach a new show to an existing franchise and, being embarrassed about the majority of said franchise, reworking established cannon and passing it off in said new show as though things were this way the whole time.

I'm a fan of Universe. That doesn't mean I'm blind to how much of a glaring disconnect it is from the previous shows.

D Toccs
March 28th, 2011, 03:48 AM
To be fair, not all of the Lucian Alliance were portrayed as incompetent in SG1. For example Anateo and his group managed to take control of the Odyssey and were planning to stage a coup. Anateo's group were at least as competent as Kiva's.
Also in-universe it has been 3 years now since we last saw the Lucian Alliance in SG1, during those 3 years we only got stories focusing on the Pegasus Galaxy and now Destiny.
So it's not really that the LA have suddenly been upgraded to a major threat, it's more a case of they've been given the 3 years of character development, but all we got to see were the "before" and "after". We did get given snippets of what has been happening in those 3 years though, for example Telford was under cover for a whole year, so Earth and the LA have obviously been involved in an escalating war of espionage and counter espionage.

BloomGate
March 28th, 2011, 05:21 AM
I buy x because I can imagine it being that way does little to address the reality of sloppy writing. That's the problem with trying to attach a new show to an existing franchise and, being embarrassed about the majority of said franchise, reworking established cannon and passing it off in said new show as though things were this way the whole time.

I'm a fan of Universe. That doesn't mean I'm blind to how much of a glaring disconnect it is from the previous shows.

While some of what you say is true, I would characterize what you call "lazy writing" instead as "TV writing". Writing for Television is far different from writing for other mediums if only because leaving loose ends is considered "good" because it leaves options open for future stories.

So,for instance, in the example of The Trust, if they had closed that storyline down, they no longer have an antagonist on Earth. So in any possible scenario where the story requires some conflict on Earth (as has been pointed out in SG1 S10 and SGA S4) they would have to invent something new, or explain why something thought as finished came back. They simply saved themselves a bunch of screen time of a new story that would have required more setup.

So if it were a book series, I would agree that it would be lazy or sloppy writing from a structure standpoint. However, a TV series has budgetary and resource limitations that require a more open ended style. Someone writing a series of books can decide exactly how long the series will be. A writer of books doesn't have to worry whether one of their main characters will be available for the next book, or whether they might unexpectedly get pregnant. A writer of books can spend pages and pages explaining something new while a TV writer has limited time to tell their story and it takes less time to refer to a a previous plot device than it would to explain something from scratch.

So, while I see your point in some regards about the writing, you really can't expect tight writing that ties things up neatly all the time.

blackluster
March 28th, 2011, 05:51 AM
I think the LA are quite viable as a threat given the development they have received so far.

I think what can unify the SG1 LA and the SGU version is the sheer scope of the LA. From the words of Varro and the characterization of Simeon and Kiva, it seems clear that the LA is much larger and dynamic than its name might suggest.

Currently, we don't really have an idea of the composition of the member states of the alliance or on what grounds and agreements each joined the alliance. Like the members of any major organization, I expect the member worlds or clans of the alliance to have varying technical and military ability.

It is clear from Varro's dialogue that members of the LA are not open with each other and can act independently of each other. While this would seem to indicate disorganization, the threat it poses to Earth is that there is no complete picture of the alliance's capabilities. You might bust some pirates bearing a Lucian Alliance tag one day, and then run up against a professional military force composed of Varros and Simeons the next day.

The size of the Lucian Alliance is what makes this possible and it is what makes Earth desperate for intelligence on them. Satellites look down on Earth everyday and can give you a general picture of who is doing what in which places. For the LA however, there are parts and resources within them that Earth has probably never even seen yet, and that is what makes them dangerous, and why their threat level in SGU is believable.

As to motive: during SG1, the presence of the Goa'uld would have restricted what the LA could do on a galactic level, so their activities would mainly revolve around grinding out a profit to buy weapons to protect their interests or to pay off whoever needed to look the other way.

What seems clear in SGU though, is that the LA is starting to gain technological ambitions. This might be to assert some lasting legitimate political influence in the galaxy, or it might stem from competition between Alliance members for dominance and influence within the Alliance.

Earth's policing and proactive security policy puts them on a collision course with the LA. If the LA have ambitions of being something more than a criminal group which I believe they do, then they must neutralize Earth's ability to get in their way.

thekillman
March 28th, 2011, 07:16 AM
i participate in a fanfic project on this forum and i write for the LA. and what i understand of the LA is, that they are multiple independent factions which act together. factions which understand that they have to work together, factions that understand that internal fracturing is what kills you.

the LA can't be the same LA from SG1 because from SG1, they appear far too incompetent. my personal explanation is that the original Warlords have simply been replaced by better, more intelligent and more competent warlords.

Nth Chevron
March 28th, 2011, 09:58 AM
I thought with Atlantis being on Earth now, and cloaked, that her 3.0 gate took presidence over our 2.0 MW model.

Thus i always assumed Atlantis took over as SGC, with it being research hub, a computer like DHD better than ours, better sensors, security and shields to contain many problems gate related, a living city space the size of Manhattan etc etc.

All it would need is a heavier contingent of equipment and guards in the gateroom and it already becomes better than the SGC. Minus operational costs and the fact it can act as a landing pad for 304's and it becomes the best logical choice to continue the SGC.

Not to mention it is NOT USAF property, the IOA has the lead, the international community is set up and so will simmer down the tensions between Russia and the US over Stargate procured tech, aswell as the eventual fallout when/if the Stargate program goes public.

Its as near to perfect as the involved authorities could hope for. Especially considering when/if the Stargate program DOES go public there will be the usual religious outcries, zealotism, most likely culminating in a terrorist attack.

I'd like to see a suicide anything try and get through Atlantis' shields when wven the Wraith couldnt :P

N.C

Skiznot
March 28th, 2011, 12:32 PM
I don't agree that the LA are THE major antagonist. SGU does not have a single major antagonist. The LA are Antagonists, the blues, the drones and depending on your ultimate goal, Rush or Young might be antagonists. One of the reasons SGU is the superior show is that it's not so simplistic in terms of good guys and bad guys.

As for the major antagonist for Earth? I see no reason not to believe that Lucian Alliance wouldn't be threatened by and want to dominate the tech Earth has access to. The LA likely have a culture of mistrust and fear. No stretch at all that they would spend time going after the biggest threat.

hedwig
March 28th, 2011, 07:26 PM
While this isn't a really clear explanation of the Lucian Alliance wanting to rid themselves of the Tauri, it was somewhat explained in SG1, "Company of Thieves", by Anateo, the guy that hijacked the Odyssey and her crew:


SOLEK (to Anateo): But why was it necessary to also bait a trap to capture SG-1?

ANATEO: Because everyone knows that they have caused us more grief than any other adversary, including the Ori. All the seconds, including me, have begged Netan to go after them, but he refused. He's a coward, choosing to run and hide rather than face the wrath of the Tau'ri.

SOLEK: Will we not?

ANATEO: We have brought their battleship to its knees, what are they going to do? After I present Odyssey and SG-1 to the others, Netan's stuffed corpse will be a trophy on my wall, and control of the Lucian Alliance will be mine.
Obviously, Anateo didn't get control of the Lucian Alliance, but I'm sure others felt as he did and are no doubt the ones that attacked earth.

droid327
March 31st, 2011, 04:06 PM
OK well I did make one mistake in my OP, I got confused between SGC and HWS. But even then, you'd think HWS would be a high-priority target they'd want to defend.

Second, I dont think "Airman" Evans was the pilot. Wray speculated the plan was for him to land the cloaked ship, set the bomb on a timer, and then get out to a safe distance. The ship didnt land, it crashed - which obviously wasnt the "plan". We know the ship itself was destroyed when it crashed, because Wray/Greer didnt have to enter a ship to find the bomb, it was just sitting loose among the wreckage and rubble. I'd guess the pilot died in the crash, which is why I thought Evans was an infiltrator. If he was the pilot, even, since he knew he was already dead from radiation (and wouldnt be able to make it out to a safe distance in time, anyway), you'd think he would have actually wanted to find the bomb with Wray and Greer, so that he could set it off immediately, not prevent them from looking for it.

Third, I do completely buy the LA as a major criminal/underground/plutocratic organization filling the power void left by the Goa'uld in their part of the galaxy. What I dont buy is out-and-out attacks against Earth, who they know could clean their clocks in open warfare. Just like you dont see the Yakuza bombing the Diet (Congress) in Tokyo, and you dont see the mexican drug cartels bombing the headquarters of the Mexican Army. I'd buy the LA making raids and attacks on SGC bases offworld, or on allies of the SGC, but it seems wholly stupid to go straight for HWC and piss off the SG program so directly.

Seems like the smarter thing for the LA to do is just to try and keep the SGC out of their part of the galaxy, establish control, and then expand where they see opportunity. Not try to start a galactic war with the only major galactic military power left standing.

garhkal
April 1st, 2011, 01:23 PM
Personally i think it is very logical that they are now being the main baddie.

skooma
April 3rd, 2011, 11:15 PM
The Lucian Alliance attacked Homeworld Command, not the SGC, which is still in Cheyenne Mountain until an actual episode of Stargate says otherwise. Why would the real life closing of NORAD mean the fictional moving of the SGC?

If anything that's a little better. No NORAD people wondering why people always moving in and out of the lower levels.