What Vorlons really look like

[nx01a]

http://the-first-magelord.deviantart...rlon-134868303
A very nice rendering of a complete non-corporeal Vorlon, both happy... and enraged.

Spoiler:

[Spimman]

You don't think they're at least somewhat corporeal?

I thought they looked like angels?

[Cold Fuzz]

http://the-first-magelord.deviantart...rlon-134868303
A very nice rendering of a complete non-corporeal Vorlon, both happy... and enraged.

Spoiler:

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs27/i/20...t_Magelord.jpg

I always thought that the Vorlons' ships gave a little bit of a hint as to their true appearance. Even after they were revealed as angels, I knew there had to be something more to them and the squid theme prevalent to their ships was a good reflection of their true physical form.

You don't think they're at least somewhat corporeal?

I thought they looked like angels?

According to JMS, there is a physicality to them. His personal view on them is that since Vorlons do tend to reflect, refract, and emit light, that they're nominally crystalline in their way. This was pointed at in "The Gathering" with the poison fluorazine which was used to poison Kosh. It was supposed to be a crystal-based poison.

In "Falling Toward Apotheosis" we saw Ulkesh striking out against B5 security—as in physically hitting them. Of course, Ulkesh also showed us a bit of his telepathic and telekinetic abilities in that same episode.

[SaberBlade]

You don't think they're at least somewhat corporeal?

I thought they looked like angels?

Angels are what they genetically engineered people to see them as (when they made the conscious effort to be corporeal) but they looked like that render as seen when Kosh fights Ulkesh when Sheridan returns to B5. We didn't get to see all the first ones, but Lorien had two different forms, the Vorlons, the Shadows did (as it let them go invisible), the future humans (they looked like smaller Loriens). So it's possible all the First Ones, plus the future Minbari (as I remember reading that only humans and minbari reached the evolutionary stage of First Ones) had their real form, plus another form they could turn into.

[Jeffala]

(as I remember reading that only humans and minbari reached the evolutionary stage of First Ones)

In "Midnight on the Firing Line", Kosh tells Sinclair that, "They are alone. They are a dying people. We should let them pass." When asked if he was referring to the Centauri or the Narn, Kosh's only response was, "Yes."

It could be possible that the only races that reached the evolutionary level of the First Ones were the humans and the Minbari, but this is probably a discussion for another thread.

[Cold Fuzz]

I think this will help clarify things about about the Vorlons.

JMS' comments on the true appearance of Vorlons:

Have we seen a Vorlon's true appearance?
That's pretty much what they look like.

Why didn't Ulkesh project an illusion?
Because it takes concentration to pull it off, and Kosh2 was kinda distracted....
The encounter suit was mainly to mask them.
The idea was to short out and "crack" the suit, getting the vorlon out, so the last of Kosh and Lorien and Sheridan could deal with him in a weakened and more vulnerable state.

The Vorlons looked a bit like Shadows.
I didn't think they looked that much alike. But then, no two people ever see Vorlons in quite the same way, I guess.

If Vorlons are amorphous energy beings, how was Kosh poisoned in "The Gathering?"
Remember, they do have a certain physicality about them, even in that form, and the nature of the poison was such that it would affect that kind of life form using a crystalline base (note in the pilot the screen reads analyzing crystalline structure, and you filter light or refract or distort it using a crystalline structure).

Silicon or crystalline based lifeforms are still lifeforms, just not the same as carbon-based lifeforms (like us).

Yes, that's a Vorlon...and there was a physicality to them, shown by the fact that it could strike out and hit things. It's not a ghost or anything of that nature, it can be hurt and killed.


JMS' comments about humans and Minbari evolving into beings like the First Ones:

Did the future humans leave the galaxy as the Vorlons did?
No point in leaving the galaxy; stars go nova, it only affects the immediate vicinity (big as that is). By this point, they were in the position of the Vorlons, and now have to take their (our) place guiding the younger races, the next wave, while not getting in the way and remembering the lesson of the shadow/vorlon conflict.

What about the other races?
The Minbari eventually make it; the Narn and Centauri do not. They don't die out, they just don't hit a state of First One-ishness, which is darn close to immortality (barring violence).

[nx01a]

When I realized that Kosh = Cthulhu, my sci-fi world just fell into place.

[Cold Fuzz]

When I realized that Kosh = Cthulhu, my sci-fi world just fell into place.

So that would mean that the ancient Cthulhu language would be a human's rendering of Vorlon?

[DigiFluid]

What about the other races?
The Minbari eventually make it; the Narn and Centauri do not. They don't die out, they just don't hit a state of First One-ishness, which is darn close to immortality (barring violence).

That's interesting; I don't know that I totally like it though. In my mind, I imagined the Narns of the distant future becoming more peaceful and zen due to the teachings of G'Kar.

And as for the Centauri, being so easily manipulated by the Shadows (Londo), then occupied for 17 years by the Drakh, and then having enough potential for aggressive war that Galen warned Sheridan (Lost Tales)....well, I always imagined that the Centauri would evolve into the successors of the Shadows.

[SaberBlade]

I always thought it was a bit presumptuous for JMS to make Humans and Minbari to reach that type of status, while the Centauri and Narn just hit some sort of evolutionary dead stop.

During season 1, Sinclair and Kosh had a conversation;

Kosh - They are a dying people.
Sinclair - Who, the Narn or the Centauri?
Kosh - Yes.

As the show went on, Kosh was correct. There didn't really seem to be much of a future for either race as several Centauri were single minded in their own ambition and it always lead their people on a very dangerous course. Reefa, Cartagia, even Londo. By the end of the series, they were screwed. The Narn on the other hand, G'Kar had given the real potential for his people to become something new and better.

G'Kar reminds me of Picard in The Next Generation. Q wanted to see if it were possible for Humans to become something more, and as such he annoyed Picard in pretty much every season of TNG (except for season 5) to see if Humans were able to "expand your mind and your horizons". G'Kar was the same. He was pretty stubborn and sure of his own self righteous desires for his people. That they were better, that they could do anything they want, they were right and the Centauri were wrong and they'd all die for revenge. Somewhere along the line G'Kar changed and his book, even though he never intended it, caused his people to change as well. Some were set in their ways but more and more Narn wanted to learn and become better.

So the Centauri I could understand, but the Narn are a surprise. I could have seen the Narn becoming somewhat like the Minbari, but rather than each Cast every Narn is a bit worker, warrior and religious.

[knowles2]

SaberBlade

I agree with you, I think Narn was given a chance to grow and change there culture by G'kar, and they seem to have taken it with both hands. An under the protection and help of the alliance I only see G'Kar teachings guiding his race into a bright future.

In fact I see them becoming Lorien like, trying to guide the different fractions of the great ones on the path which does not lead to a divide which happens with Vorlons and Shadow. An them being the ones to maintain the memory and knowledge of the Shadow and Vorlon war.

I do see the Centauri becoming the new shadows, as they seem to go from one war to the next it be easy for them to start to believe that war is the only way to become more evolve and a greater being and for other races to achieve the same.

[nx01a]

I think the Narn never went to First One status because of their Shadow-induced lack of telepaths/'mind walkers'. As for the Centauri... No idea.

[Galileo_Galilee]

Yeah. I view them somewhat like jellyfish.

[Huaracocha]

I think the Narn never went to First One status because of their Shadow-induced lack of telepaths/'mind walkers'. As for the Centauri... No idea.

Exactly what I was going to suggest! As for the Centauri, we know the Vorlon never modified them and, thanks to Londo's betrayal, it's possible the Shadows never rewarded them or took back gifts that would ultimately lead to ascension. Or maybe the Drakh ganked all their telepaths.

[Galileo_Galilee]

There were Centauri telepaths. Reeva used on on Vir trying to figure out what Londo was up to.

So yes, that means the Vorlons did modify the Centauri.

Because it was the Vorlons who gave the races telepathy and other powers in order to fight the Shadows.