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View Full Version : Simeon unrealistically overpowered.



Detox
November 17th, 2010, 09:04 AM
During his rampage through destiny, he managed to take down 5 marines, killing 2 of them, and managed to wound 3 more military personnel on the planet.

The entire Lucian Alliance Incursion ended with only a few wounded military personnel and 2 dead marines.

The crew seemed to have suffered more casualties from one Lucian Alliance soldier than they did from a whole invading force of them.

That seems that a pretty unrealistic contrivance to further a story that honestly shouldn't have happened.

Seriously, it was ridiculous how quickly those marines were being dropped by a single guy with a pistol.

jelgate
November 17th, 2010, 09:06 AM
Armed and ready for the Lucian Alliance in Incursion. Simeon had the element of surprise in Malice

Detox
November 17th, 2010, 09:10 AM
Armed and ready for the Lucian Alliance in Incursion. Simeon had the element of surprise in Malice

Even still, they were taken by surprised by the Alliance during Incursion. You'd think they'd take heavier casualties by guys firing machine guns rather than a single dude with a pistol.

blackluster
November 17th, 2010, 09:16 AM
Even still, they were taken by surprised by the Alliance during Incursion. You'd think they'd take heavier casualties by guys firing machine guns rather than a single dude with a pistol.lol, no, they were forewarned in the first case. Simeon had gained complete surprise in this ep. Considering Simeon's background, I wouldn't be surprised if he had more combat experience than every earth soldier on Destiny with the exception of Young himself.

MattSilver 3k
November 17th, 2010, 09:23 AM
The big firefights in the corridors during the Incursion were rapid-fire rifle rounds bouncing off walls and grazing people left and right in very close quarters. Malice had Simeon with a pistol, walking through the halls, shooting off lights and taking marines by surprise with well-placed shots. Nothing crazy, just walking around and pulling the trigger before the others could see it coming. No less unrealistic than two redshirt Wraith getting downed by Shepperd or something.

James71
November 17th, 2010, 09:29 AM
I could easily believe Simeon would get the jump on his personal guard and Ginn/Perry. Those were likely silent kills with the element of surprise. No gunshots fired.

But once Simeon went loud with shots fired, that would have been his last kill with the element of surprise. So I could reasonably believe 2 more easy kills in that manner.

It should have been MUCH tougher after that.

Lionheart325
November 17th, 2010, 09:44 AM
He's the sort of charecter that is trained and born to kill. I'm sure if Greer was the man going nuts and on a rampage he'd be able to do as much damage.

And you can't really compare two different types of battles and say he's op. Element of surprise and quick reflexes make all the difference.

Aurora24
November 17th, 2010, 09:46 AM
The soldiers on Destiny weren't expecting anyone to attack them. Even the best trained soldiers can be killed or wounded if they are caught off guard.

Nova Blue
November 17th, 2010, 10:28 AM
One person is easier to hide, get the jump on people, and/or move about than the larger groups who initially invaded Destiny from The LA.

Galileo_Galilee
November 17th, 2010, 10:38 AM
You must hate Riddick then.

And Batman.

Wayston
November 17th, 2010, 10:44 AM
You must hate Riddick then.

And Batman.

and the SGA main characters roaming around hive ships

Replicator Todd
November 17th, 2010, 10:59 AM
Armed and ready for the Lucian Alliance in Incursion. Simeon had the element of surprise in Malice

Indeed, not to mention we don't know how large Destiny is so many corridors could be empty enough for him to find the right route to go undetected for a while.

Kaiphantom
November 17th, 2010, 11:08 AM
The whole problem with Simeon is that he should have had two guards on them. All the LA people had two guards initially, and out of all the LA, he was the only one who showcased a problem afterward. Not to mention, Greer knew he was bad news. The fact that it was reduced to one guard was just another sad, stupid move.

The two guards standing outside the armory were stupid, too. The lights suddenly go out, and you just stand there? Especially after you just hear on the radio that Ginn is down and that Simeon is unaccounted for? They should have had their guns out and taking cover. It kinda puts a lie to what Young said about them being skilled and trained for this.

Young should have immediately assumed he was heading to a vital area, and thus ordered guards to cover them: gate room, armory, or bridge. Once those are covered, you can begin your search.

Instead, it really feels like everything was specifically set up to allow Simeon to kill Ginn/Perry and then escape off the ship. So Simeon wasn't overpowered, but more like the other side was considerably underpowered.

Loheat
November 17th, 2010, 11:11 AM
The whole problem with Simeon is that he should have had two guards on them. All the LA people had two guards initially, and out of all the LA, he was the only one who showcased a problem afterward. Not to mention, Greer knew he was bad news. The fact that it was reduced to one guard was just another sad, stupid move.

The two guards standing outside the armory were stupid, too. The lights suddenly go out, and you just stand there? Especially after you just hear on the radio that Ginn is down and that Simeon is unaccounted for? They should have had their guns out and taking cover. It kinda puts a lie to what Young said about them being skilled and trained for this.

Young should have immediately assumed he was heading to a vital area, and thus ordered guards to cover them: gate room, armory, or bridge. Once those are covered, you can begin your search.

Instead, it really feels like everything was specifically set up to allow Simeon to kill Ginn/Perry and then escape off the ship. So Simeon wasn't overpowered, but more like the other side was considerably underpowered.
I agree, thats exactly how it came off as to me. It was a little boring to have him simply walk up and cap people, like those people weren't watching the entrances to the hallway they were guarding. I would have preferred he would have done something more creative, or at least had our guys fight back slightly.
For me the fault was in the execution

Wayston
November 17th, 2010, 11:16 AM
I agree, thats exactly how it came off as to me. It was a little boring to have him simply walk up and cap people, like those people weren't watching the entrances to the hallway they were guarding. I would have preferred he would have done something more creative, or at least had our guys fight back slightly.
For me the fault was in the execution

I didn't mind that scene too much, but I agree. My main beef with it was though that the armoury wasn't locked.

Ouroboros
November 17th, 2010, 11:44 AM
At first when I was watching this I was thinking "wow they really underestimated this guy" but after thinking about it a bit more he didn't really do anything particularly incredible on his own. He wasn't even a particularly good shot, missing the main characters several times when he had all the time in the world to line up initial shots on them from ambush.

Basically Simeon didn't do anything particularly impressive, it was just the SGU security being retarded that enabled him to be as successful as he was. First, as I think was pointed out, why wasn't security on him increased given the problems he'd been causing in the past. They started out escorting all LA people but as some of them lost their escorts those escorts could have simply be rotated on to him so he had at least 2 men on him at all times.

It was fairly obvious early on that if anyone was going to cause problems it was going to be him.

There was nothing too inherently implausible about his escape though, aside from maybe how empty all the vital areas seemed to be, thus preventing anyone calling in his location. The SGU military teams are under manned, under supplied and likely overworked. It's not surprising that things would gradually start to slip until something really nasty like this comes along and shows just how far they have.

aretood2
November 17th, 2010, 12:05 PM
There is a reason why the Army prefers to use a small detachment of highly trained soldiers to sneak around enemy territory and cause precise but devastating damage to the enemy as opposed to a direct full frontal assault. And I think Simoen displays this point perfectly.

thekillman
November 17th, 2010, 12:22 PM
There was nothing too inherently implausible about his escape though, aside from maybe how empty all the vital areas seemed to be, thus preventing anyone calling in his location. The SGU military teams are under manned, under supplied and likely overworked. It's not surprising that things would gradually start to slip until something really nasty like this comes along and shows just how far they have.

but on the ship there's no sense of day or night. given the utter emptyness of the ship, i'd say it was in the middle of the night.


anyway when he shoots the two guards, one guy is shot, the other is about to think WTF and gets shot, then Simeon KEEPS HIS GUN POINTED AT HIM.


up next, he defeats a guard singlehandedly. considering that Dunning was alone at the arms room, all time simeon needed was one second.


on the planet, he had the advantage of terrain and being there first. he killed two kinos, and landed a few shots.


if anything, his actions on the planet were to stall. from the looks of when rush defused the bomb, he intended to kill rush and immediately dial to escape.




but i think most of the episode was "caught offguard".

Quallen
November 17th, 2010, 12:25 PM
That seems that a pretty unrealistic contrivance to further a story that honestly shouldn't have happened.

Seriously, it was ridiculous how quickly those marines were being dropped by a single guy with a pistol.

If the action had been displayed in typical stormtrooper effect fashion then maybe I'd see your point but he clearly got the drop on everyone he engaged. These weren't straight up fights. There is a big difference between fighting an invading army for territory and fighting one gorilla warrior who was had plenty of time walking around to understand the security deployments and plan how he was going to do this.

On paper okay maybe it sounds odd but given the context, what we were shown, his effectiveness made sense.

The Destiny
November 17th, 2010, 12:26 PM
I rewatched it and when Simeon shoots the 2 guys guarding the armoury they are really taken by suprise. It's not like Simeon came down the hall like a target. The second guard looks around him to find the attacker before he goes down too.

Wasn't Dunning one of the 2 standing at the armoury btw?


Also when he shoots the marine outside the gateroom, he emerges ( nicely dramatically ) from smoke. What trick did he pull there?

Kaiphantom
November 17th, 2010, 01:21 PM
Except that the whole point was they should NOT have been taken by surprise. There was plenty of time to realize something was wrong and automatically assume that someone could come to the armory. If they were truly trained, then it would have been drilled into them that when you are on guard duty, you always assume a threat until proven otherwise.

They should have had their guns out and been suitably apart, taking whatever cover they could. The moment Simeon appeared and shot, the second guard should have been returning fire. Simeon should never have reached the gate room, nor should he have even been able to get off the ship.

The better way to handle this would have been for Simeon to take a hostage before all of this, possibly Ginn/Perry, and use that to get to the gate room. Our military guys wouldn't have looked like idiots, then.

Gatz
November 17th, 2010, 02:06 PM
In Simeon's defense, Marines are as useful as scarecrows in the stargate universe

Puddle-Jumper
November 17th, 2010, 03:57 PM
lol, no, they were forewarned in the first case. Simeon had gained complete surprise in this ep. Considering Simeon's background, I wouldn't be surprised if he had more combat experience than every earth soldier on Destiny with the exception of Young himself.

No Id say more then even Young, like Simeon probably grew up with a weapon in his hand... he's been a warrior his entire life... Young is good... so are Scott, Greer and James.. but nothing can stand up to that kinda experience. It was the same with Teal'c and Ronan and Teyla really..

Blackhole
November 17th, 2010, 04:07 PM
I could easily believe Simeon would get the jump on his personal guard and Ginn/Perry. Those were likely silent kills with the element of surprise. No gunshots fired.

But once Simeon went loud with shots fired, that would have been his last kill with the element of surprise. So I could reasonably believe 2 more easy kills in that manner.

It should have been MUCH tougher after that.

Spaceship doors are made to be very strong and airtight. When closed they are probably nearly if not completely soundproof. Also Destiny is a huge ship. Sounds would not travel very far. Once he made his way to the armory he didn't waste anytime.

Blackhole
November 17th, 2010, 04:15 PM
There is a reason why the Army prefers to use a small detachment of highly trained soldiers to sneak around enemy territory and cause precise but devastating damage to the enemy as opposed to a direct full frontal assault. And I think Simoen displays this point perfectly.

I have talked with special forces and swat officers before. The element of surprise is amazingly important. That is why surgical strikes can be so effective. Even highly trained soldiers are going to experience a moment of hesitation when startled.

Puddle-Jumper
November 17th, 2010, 04:16 PM
Spaceship doors are made to be very strong and airtight. When closed they are probably nearly if not completely soundproof. Also Destiny is a huge ship. Sounds would not travel very far. Once he made his way to the armory he didn't waste anytime.

Good point

lars
November 17th, 2010, 04:16 PM
Taking an average SG1-episode in comparison, it just surprises me he didn't blow up the whole ship. So, I don't see any problem with his kill count or his escape for that matter

GateroomGuard
November 17th, 2010, 04:29 PM
Just to clarify this, they could have posted as many guards as they wanted around Simeon and this still would have happend. Simeon is not an idiot, he will wait for the best oppurtunity to make his move, eventually guards will let their guard down and all he needed to do was take one hostage and he's home clear. Just keel over and act sick, guard walks over to either help or make him move, Simeon grabs guard and his gun shoots the other guards or just uses the guard as a hostage, either way he wins. The only way to have prevented this was to have killed Simeon when the first captured him, I wouldn't even exile him, a guy like him is to much of a threat to be allowed to exist.

Joben
November 17th, 2010, 04:43 PM
Also when he shoots the marine outside the gateroom, he emerges ( nicely dramatically ) from smoke. What trick did he pull there?

He grabbed a smoke grenade from the armory and you can hear him use it before he shoots the marines outside the gateroom

Eternal Density
November 17th, 2010, 04:52 PM
In Simeon's defense, Marines are as useful as scarecrows in the stargate universeIf marines are Scarecrows and Simeon is Batman... yeah.

GateroomGuard
November 17th, 2010, 04:54 PM
If marines are Scarecrows and Simeon is Batman... yeah.

Hmmm... 1. Always frowns. 2. Is not well liked even by his comrades. 3. Appears suddenly from the dark and smoke. 4. Has tons of gadgets and traps at his disposal. 5. Excellent fighter. Yeah I think Simeon is basically the Lucian Alliance Batman.

JustAnotherVoice
November 17th, 2010, 05:04 PM
There's no reason to believe that Simeon is on the same level as any of the SGC personnel on board - physically, mentally or in terms of experience. For the SGC, soldiering is a job, but for Simeon, it's a lifestyle.

He's probably been sneaking around in the shadows against the snakeheads since he could first pick up a weapon and on the front lines of inter faction conflicts within the LA. Coupled with being a relatively fresh and highly motivated, he probably held back a lot.

Galileo_Galilee
November 17th, 2010, 05:07 PM
Hmmmmm....

Maybe the LA is a Galactic Group of Batmen?

Quetzocoetl
November 17th, 2010, 05:07 PM
If I hadn't already seen SG-1 or the Atlantis crew being able to escape when out numbered, I might've agreed.
Is it really hard to imagine Simeon simply taking his guards by surprise, then taking out the unprepared airmen?
A slight hesitation is all it takes. Nobody knew what Simeon was going to do, whether it was go to the Gate room, Armory, or break his LA comrades out and overtake the ship. It's a big ship, you can't hear gunshots as well as you'd think.

AndSoItBegins
November 17th, 2010, 05:18 PM
The title is misleading. I take "overpowered" as meaning someone was taken down/subdued/overpowered, etc. The OP believes it means a person/character was unrealistically given too much fighting abiity. :D

Kaiphantom
November 17th, 2010, 06:07 PM
Just to clarify this, they could have posted as many guards as they wanted around Simeon and this still would have happend. Simeon is not an idiot,

The guards shouldn't be idiots, either. There was a very good reason they posted two guards per LA member, and they would have been told to watch them carefully, as anything could be a trick. I guarantee you, in a real world situation with two guards on you, Simeon or not, you ain't gettin' away. If you think you are, then you've been watching too much TV.

This was poor writing to set up a specific situation, plain and simple

GateroomGuard
November 17th, 2010, 06:15 PM
The guards shouldn't be idiots, either. There was a very good reason they posted two guards per LA member, and they would have been told to watch them carefully, as anything could be a trick. I guarantee you, in a real world situation with two guards on you, Simeon or not, you ain't gettin' away. If you think you are, then you've been watching too much TV.

This was poor writing to set up a specific situation, plain and simple

Real life convicts escape from much more guarded situations than Simeon without the benefit of his extensive training. Being vigiliant and watchful of everything Simeon did is unrealistic, eventually they would relax or mess up. Simeon just had to wait for that oppurtunity. Simeon probably also had more combat expierience than everyone onboard combined. And the SGC personel are not battle hardened veterans, most of them are green and have never been in combat.

Kaiphantom
November 17th, 2010, 06:23 PM
Real life convicts escape from much more guarded situations than Simeon without the benefit of his extensive training. Being vigiliant and watchful of everything Simeon did is unrealistic, eventually they would relax or mess up. Simeon just had to wait for that oppurtunity. Simeon probably also had more combat expierience than everyone onboard combined. And the SGC personel are not battle hardened veterans, most of them are green and have never been in combat.

Eh, you need to read up on how convicts really escape (and believe me, it's nothing like the movies). It's mostly from very low security places, perhaps running away while on work detail when the one guard looking over 12 men, goes to use the bathroom.

And where is your proof that the SGC personnel are greens and not battle hardened veterans? Regardless of experience, they are put through a LOT of training, and they've had to contend with a lot since the attack on Icarus and coming onto the ship.

In short, stop believing everything you see on TV.

GateroomGuard
November 17th, 2010, 06:39 PM
Eh, you need to read up on how convicts really escape (and believe me, it's nothing like the movies). It's mostly from very low security places, perhaps running away while on work detail when the one guard looking over 12 men, goes to use the bathroom.

And where is your proof that the SGC personnel are greens and not battle hardened veterans? Regardless of experience, they are put through a LOT of training, and they've had to contend with a lot since the attack on Icarus and coming onto the ship.

In short, stop believing everything you see on TV.

Real life speaks otherwise
http://www.wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=13354761
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-09-24-1860401674_x.htm

Guarding a prisoner who can walk around anywhere he wants to is just waiting for trouble. And I doubt the SGC personel were trained for guarding a highly trained killing machine like Simeon.

Kaiphantom
November 17th, 2010, 06:59 PM
Real life speaks otherwise
http://www.wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=13354761
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-09-24-1860401674_x.htm

Guarding a prisoner who can walk around anywhere he wants to is just waiting for trouble. And I doubt the SGC personel were trained for guarding a highly trained killing machine like Simeon.

The problem with your examples was that they were minimum security situations with prison guards; not marines guarding a highly dangerous individual on a sensitive ship.

GateroomGuard
November 17th, 2010, 07:07 PM
The problem with your examples was that they were minimum security situations with prison guards; not marines guarding a highly dangerous individual on a sensitive ship.

You could have the most highly trained individuals from Earth stone into Destiny and have them follow Simeon around and he'd still pull this off. 24 7 guarding of a prisoner who can walk around wherever he wants to is simply not going to work. Eventually even the most highly trained guard will get careless or make a mistake which is what Simeon would be waiting for. The moment their is a weakness Simeon would exploit it. Now if he was locked up I'd agree with you.

Kaiphantom
November 17th, 2010, 07:23 PM
You could have the most highly trained individuals from Earth stone into Destiny and have them follow Simeon around and he'd still pull this off. 24 7 guarding of a prisoner who can walk around wherever he wants to is simply not going to work. Eventually even the most highly trained guard will get careless or make a mistake which is what Simeon would be waiting for. The moment their is a weakness Simeon would exploit it. Now if he was locked up I'd agree with you.

That's why there are two guards. You know what the odds of both of them being idiots at the exact same moment are? Skilled, heavily trained, experienced marines both being morons? You may as well be saying, "Sooner or later, someone is gonna get struck by a small meteorite." Yes, technically true, but the odds are small enough that it's not exactly a concern.

Hell, you might as well be calling Greer a moron.

GateroomGuard
November 17th, 2010, 07:28 PM
That's why there are two guards. You know what the odds of both of them being idiots at the exact same moment are? Skilled, heavily trained, experienced marines both being morons? You may as well be saying, "Sooner or later, someone is gonna get struck by a small meteorite." Yes, technically true, but the odds are small enough that it's not exactly a concern.

Hell, you might as well be calling Greer a moron.

I recall Greer got shot by Simeon.

Suprise can take out all the training and expierence those Marines might have had. Simeon waits for the right moment, lures one of his guards over, takes him out grabs his gun uses him as a shield and then kills the other guard. The Lucian Alliance had a random Marine pull the same thing on them and nearly succeeded in Incursion, a guy like Simeon who probably is way more expierenced could probably do better.

Jonzey
November 17th, 2010, 07:34 PM
Would we be questioning this if Jack/Teal'c/Sam/Sheppard/Teyla/Ronon/Young/Scott had done something similar on an alien ship? If anything it just proves how much of a threat Simeon was. And I'm not surprised he was able to overpower the armoury guard- why would they be alert? I mean, as far as they're concerned, any threat would either come through the gate, or on other ships, in which case they'd hear about it first. And losing power? We know that's not an uncommon occurence on Destiny. And it was Simeon's self-assigned mission to overpower his guard, kill Ginn and escape. I doubt he would have given up if there was an extra person guarding him.

Pharaoh Atem
November 17th, 2010, 08:59 PM
Armed and ready for the Lucian Alliance in Incursion. Simeon had the element of surprise in Malice

if he hadn't climbed the mountain i think he would have made it

shadowhunter483
November 17th, 2010, 09:54 PM
Would we be questioning this if Jack/Teal'c/Sam/Sheppard/Teyla/Ronon/Young/Scott had done something similar on an alien ship? If anything it just proves how much of a threat Simeon was. And I'm not surprised he was able to overpower the armoury guard- why would they be alert? I mean, as far as they're concerned, any threat would either come through the gate, or on other ships, in which case they'd hear about it first. And losing power? We know that's not an uncommon occurence on Destiny. And it was Simeon's self-assigned mission to overpower his guard, kill Ginn and escape. I doubt he would have given up if there was an extra person guarding him.

I distinctly recall an episode where jack and teal'c ambushed a patrol of jaffa on a mothership and beat them unconscious unarmed, and lets not forget teal'c and ronon retaking the SGC from the wraith. In short we've seen clear examples where characters have defied odds and have simply beaten a numerically superior force.

GateroomGuard
November 17th, 2010, 10:07 PM
I distinctly recall an episode where jack and teal'c ambushed a patrol of jaffa on a mothership and beat them unconscious unarmed, and lets not forget teal'c and ronon retaking the SGC from the wraith. In short we've seen clear examples where characters have defied odds and have simply beaten a numerically superior force.

This was just the first time it was an enemy who pulled it off and who wasn't some genetically engineered superman like the the Kull Warriors.

JustAnotherVoice
November 17th, 2010, 10:15 PM
This was just the first time it was an enemy who pulled it off and who wasn't some genetically engineered superman like the the Kull Warriors.

I'm just happy that Earth wasn't the only one who encouraged their soldiers to take a level in badass. After 13 or so years of watching supposed "first primes", hardened criminals and assorted other "tough guys" get steam rolled by mere Earthlings, it's refreshing to see that others can give as much as the SGC.

GateroomGuard
November 17th, 2010, 10:18 PM
I'm just happy that Earth wasn't the only one who encouraged their soldiers to take a level in badass. After 13 or so years of watching supposed "first primes", hardened criminals and assorted other "tough guys" get steam rolled by mere Earthlings, it's refreshing to see that others can give as much as the SGC.

Simeon was one of the few Lucian Alliance members to earn a scholarship to Villain Competancy University

pipi
November 17th, 2010, 11:22 PM
Maybe now they can use some sort of security lock for the door instead of just having red shirts standing at the door staring at a wall when they should be looking left and right.

spinny magee
November 17th, 2010, 11:37 PM
You know....it's not like he's a Jaffa or Stormtrooper...he can aim. Besides, it's not like the Lucian Alliance don't train their guys......

wolverine_nl
November 18th, 2010, 12:03 AM
Who is to say the best marines were on Destiny? Plus the element of surprise...anything is possible....I say: Plausible.

The Destiny
November 18th, 2010, 12:11 AM
The episode shows the 2 guys guarding the armoury were at that particular moment looking at another entrance of that hall. When Simeon came from the other side he shot one and the other looked around suprised as hell before getting shot. It's really not that far off for Simeon to shoot them. One of the posters here might even pull that off, shooting 2 marines from relatively short distance while they're checking another entrance and looking away.

He should've had 2 guards on him, of course, but then again what had he down untill that point? TJ made im squeel, Greer made him run away. So far he'd only been annoying.

thekillman
November 18th, 2010, 12:25 AM
you know, if simeon had been Jack O'neill and the Destiny crew had been jaffa, ori guards, wraith, or whatever, we would've found it all plausible and normal. but when an alien pulls off something, he's overpowered

Blackhole
November 18th, 2010, 02:43 AM
Eh, you need to read up on how convicts really escape (and believe me, it's nothing like the movies). It's mostly from very low security places, perhaps running away while on work detail when the one guard looking over 12 men, goes to use the bathroom.

And where is your proof that the SGC personnel are greens and not battle hardened veterans? Regardless of experience, they are put through a LOT of training, and they've had to contend with a lot since the attack on Icarus and coming onto the ship.

In short, stop believing everything you see on TV.

Destiny is a huge spaceship not a prison and is as low security as it goes when compared to a maximum security prison. And Destiny didn't appear to have any full body shackles that prisons use. Should two guards been assigned to him, yes. Could one highly trained person still get the jump on two marine guards, yes. That is why there are escapes and successful surgical strikes. People get tired and they can get lax and sometimes sloppy. This is a TV show. How many times has Jack O'Neill and John Sheppard escaped?

garhkal
November 18th, 2010, 03:05 AM
Armed and ready for the Lucian Alliance in Incursion. Simeon had the element of surprise in Malice

True dat. Plus this time simeon was fully armed. IIRC of clips we saw in Incursion, he only had a pistol.


No less unrealistic than two redshirt Wraith getting downed by Shepperd or something.

Or the many times we saw SG1 waltzing through a Hat'ak downing guards.


Indeed, not to mention we don't know how large Destiny is so many corridors could be empty enough for him to find the right route to go undetected for a while.

And we don't know how far a gunshot travels on the ship.


They should have had their guns out and taking cover. It kinda puts a lie to what Young said about them being skilled and trained for this.

That it did.. And they imo should have paid with their lives for their stupidity.


He wasn't even a particularly good shot, missing the main characters several times when he had all the time in the world to line up initial shots on them from ambush.

What it looked like is he was shooting to get them to stop following him. You see how easily he wingged greer.


he killed two kinos

Only 1.


Also when he shoots the marine outside the gateroom, he emerges ( nicely dramatically ) from smoke. What trick did he pull there?

Smoke grenades



He's probably been sneaking around in the shadows against the snakeheads since he could first pick up a weapon and on the front lines of inter faction conflicts within the LA. Coupled with being a relatively fresh and highly motivated, he probably held back a lot.
He must have won trophy after trophy on his home planet, in hide and sneak;)


I'm just happy that Earth wasn't the only one who encouraged their soldiers to take a level in badass. After 13 or so years of watching supposed "first primes", hardened criminals and assorted other "tough guys" get steam rolled by mere Earthlings, it's refreshing to see that others can give as much as the SGC.

massive +1 there.. Heck, i think (IN adnd terms) he took 10 levels of badass and the PRC of Supreme buttwhuper.

xxxevilgrinxxx
November 18th, 2010, 08:02 AM
During his rampage through destiny, he managed to take down 5 marines, killing 2 of them, and managed to wound 3 more military personnel on the planet.

The entire Lucian Alliance Incursion ended with only a few wounded military personnel and 2 dead marines.

The crew seemed to have suffered more casualties from one Lucian Alliance soldier than they did from a whole invading force of them.

That seems that a pretty unrealistic contrivance to further a story that honestly shouldn't have happened.

Seriously, it was ridiculous how quickly those marines were being dropped by a single guy with a pistol.

Getting shot will do that, whether it's a single guy with a pistol or a whole bunch of them. During the incursion, people are expecting a fight. They are armed and aware and usually hiding. In regular life aboard Destiny, the crew don't usually go around lurking behind stuff so they don't get shot so yeah, one guy with a gun, acting suddenly and without warning, is going to manage to kill a few people. Unrealistic? I'd have to say that it's sadly realistic, as episode after episode of real life mass shootings and school shootings can unfortunately attest to.

Kaiphantom
November 18th, 2010, 08:09 AM
Who is to say the best marines were on Destiny? Plus the element of surprise...anything is possible....I say: Plausible.

Except that there was no surprise. When Sheppard or Jack takes down stormtroopers, the guards don't know they are coming because they aren't even aware they are in the area.

The thing people are forgetting here, is that the marines had ample warning. Over the radio they easily heard that Ginn was attacked, and then later declared dead, and that all the LA members had been locked down and were accounted for, except Simeon. And then the lights go out (how a single shot can take out all the lights in the area is beyond me).

Tell me, in that situation, would you continue to stand there like an idiot if you were guarding something important like the armory or guard room? Or would you, I dunno, assume that Simeon *may* be the cause, and thus it might be a good idea to make sure you are prepared, perhaps by taking a bit of cover?

James71
November 18th, 2010, 08:11 AM
You know....it's not like he's a Jaffa or Stormtrooper...he can aim.

Both Rush and Simoen had terrible aim at the end in the final shootout scene.
Rush wasted a bunch of bullets.

Kaiphantom
November 18th, 2010, 08:22 AM
The accuracy of shots is directionally proportional to the importance of the plot at that time.

The original stormtroopers in Star Wars were shown to be clones from a highly skilled bounty hunter... yet they constantly miss things they aim at. The plot demanded that Simeon get off the ship with stuff from the armory, so he's going to take down things in one hit.

And let's be clear, very rarely are you dead instantly from a shot to your chest; even if the guards had been taken by surprise, they should have been able to still fire a shot or two while laying there. You'll notice it's only goons who go down in one hit, but major characters are only injured and still able to talk and move after being shot; Greer was, after all.

In short, bad writing.

xxxevilgrinxxx
November 18th, 2010, 08:40 AM
Would we be questioning this if Jack/Teal'c/Sam/Sheppard/Teyla/Ronon/Young/Scott had done something similar on an alien ship?...Good point. The "good guys" are always expected to escape, overpower guards, etc. Why is it so strange that Simeon could do the same? Simeon doesn't strike me as run of the mill Goon Number #3. He's intelligent and clearly has had some sort of training, of some sort and I'd say there's something decidedly military about him. So it doesn't surprise me at all that he'd escape.


Simeon was one of the few Lucian Alliance members to earn a scholarship to Villain Competancy University
:lol:

Loheat
November 18th, 2010, 09:18 AM
Good point. The "good guys" are always expected to escape, overpower guards, etc. Why is it so strange that Simeon could do the same? Simeon doesn't strike me as run of the mill Goon Number #3. He's intelligent and clearly has had some sort of training, of some sort and I'd say there's something decidedly military about him. So it doesn't surprise me at all that he'd escape.


:lol:
When the "good guys" did it, their enemy wasn't always the best. The Jaffa were expendable to the Goa'uld, and the Wraith soldiers were just mindless brutes controlled by the Wraith. When O'Neill escaped from Ba'al's gravity fortress however, it was much more exciting, and he got the jump on them because the base was under attack.
There are plenty of times where Jaffa just stood there and got shot, and I didn't think those were well done either.

Blackhole
November 18th, 2010, 10:02 AM
Except that there was no surprise.

The thing people are forgetting here, is that the marines had ample warning. Over the radio they easily heard that Ginn was attacked, and then later declared dead, and that all the LA members had been locked down and were accounted for, except Simeon. And then the lights go out (how a single shot can take out all the lights in the area is beyond me).

Tell me, in that situation, would you continue to stand there like an idiot if you were guarding something important like the armory or guard room? Or would you, I dunno, assume that Simeon *may* be the cause, and thus it might be a good idea to make sure you are prepared, perhaps by taking a bit of cover?

You made the assumption that communication is made on a general channel. I doubt it. Having only one general channel for communication would be chaotic; there would be so many interruptions that nobody would ever get anything done. There is probably a number of channels assigned to different duty stations. Whoever is manning the stations would have the assigned walkie talkies. I think only the command officers and Rush would likely have their own.

I don't think Ginn's body showed any obvious signs of foul play and I doubt Rush immediately knew how she had died. Rush's initial call likely went out on a command channel to the officer in charge. Who would have then routed a call to the medical staff (TJ) and then Young. Young then calls Scott to investigate the LA and James to contact Earth to find out what has happened to Amanda probably on a separate command channel. Within a few minutes TJ arrives at her quarters and Young and others shortly thereafter.

If you review the episode Young hears from Scott (presumably shortly after his arrival in Ginn’s quarters) that all the LA members are accounted for except Simeon. Simeon then shoots the light box and we see the lights go out in Ginn’s quarters. The next scene Simeon shoots the two armory guards (again presumably very shortly after killing the lights). The light box could have been in an adjacent compartment with a closed airtight door. The gunshot would not have been heard. The door opens and he walks down the dark corridor and shoots the guards. The marines did not have ample warning. The notification call from Young went out to them just after they had been shot. It is likely that was the first call they had received. You have to realize that the time elapsed between Rush’s call and Young notification to the armory was probably within 15 minutes. Simeon then used a smoke grenade to surprise the guards at the gateroom.

Simeon's escape happened very fast. I don’t think the whole scenario was unreasonable at all. As viewers we have the benefit of instantaneous awareness those on the ground do not.

And before you reply that Young should have immediately contacted the armory after receiving his first call I don’t think so. It takes a few minutes for Young to gather basic information. Unfortunately it was this time that Simeon took advantage of. I don’t think Young was at fault.

All that being said, I do agree with you that Simeon probably should have had two guards assigned to him; but let us not forget that this a TV show and the story called for Simeon to escape. I don’t think this is sloppy writing but a necessary contrivance.

Blackhole
November 18th, 2010, 10:11 AM
The accuracy of shots is directionally proportional to the importance of the plot at that time.

The original stormtroopers in Star Wars were shown to be clones from a highly skilled bounty hunter... yet they constantly miss things they aim at. The plot demanded that Simeon get off the ship with stuff from the armory, so he's going to take down things in one hit.

And let's be clear, very rarely are you dead instantly from a shot to your chest; even if the guards had been taken by surprise, they should have been able to still fire a shot or two while laying there. You'll notice it's only goons who go down in one hit, but major characters are only injured and still able to talk and move after being shot; Greer was, after all.

In short, bad writing.

How many times have you been shot?

How many people have you talked to that have been shot in the chest and were still able to function and get off a couple of shots?

Getting shot in the chest is a huge trauma and would be imo at the very least immediately debilitating and more likely often shortly fatal. I doubt anyone would be in a position to do anything like getting off a couple of shots.

xxxevilgrinxxx
November 18th, 2010, 10:18 AM
When the "good guys" did it, their enemy wasn't always the best. Simeon isn't facing "the best" either. Plus, he doesn't seem to be painted as stereotypical stupid bad guy.

Kaiphantom
November 18th, 2010, 10:40 AM
You made the assumption that communication is made on a general channel. I doubt it. Having only one general channel for communication would be chaotic; there would be so many interruptions that nobody would ever get anything done. There is probably a number of channels assigned to different duty stations. Whoever is manning the stations would have the assigned walkie talkies. I think only the command officers and Rush would likely have their own.

You have a partial point about the channel, but when we see the dead armory bodies, we can hear voices coming from the walkie-talkies. So, unless it is specifically mentioned that they were using different channels, the most likely explanation is that they were on the general military frequency.


If you review the episode Young hears from Scott (presumably shortly after his arrival in Ginn’s quarters) that all the LA members are accounted for except Simeon. Simeon then shoots the light box and we see the lights go out in Ginn’s quarters. The next scene Simeon shoots the two armory guards (again presumably very shortly after killing the lights). The light box could have been in an adjacent compartment with a closed airtight door. The gunshot would not have been heard.

False. Sound propagates by vibration, usually by vibration of air molecules, but it can also propagate through practically any other material. So we have two issues:

1. The light box was close enough, in which case the marines should have heard the shots. That, above all else, should have put them on high alert (if they were't already).

2. The light box wasn't close enough. In which case, it would have to be plenty far away, enough time for the lights to go out and the marines to think, "Hey, I think something is going on, and perhaps we should step up our guard."

Like I said, bad writing.


How many times have you been shot?

Once. In the chest, actually. Punctured a lung. It was a strange feeling, laying there, feeling this burning pain sensation; I was mostly in shock, which probably protected my mind from major pain. I didn't really feel like moving, although I know I could have, sorta like when you're tired and don't wanna get up from bed. I did watch the shooter run away, though.

Getting shot does not equal instant death, though.

Blackhole
November 18th, 2010, 11:44 AM
You have a partial point about the channel, but when we see the dead armory bodies, we can hear voices coming from the walkie-talkies. So, unless it is specifically mentioned that they were using different channels, the most likely explanation is that they were on the general military frequency.

No it is not the most likely explanation. It there was one general military frequency why were the guards in relaxed position when they were shot? If they had been warned that one of the LA was probably about to attack the armory they would have drawn their guns and been in an alert position. Since they weren't then they hadn't been warned.


False. Sound propagates by vibration, usually by vibration of air molecules, but it can also propagate through practically any other material. So we have two issues:

1. The light box was close enough, in which case the marines should have heard the shots. That, above all else, should have put them on high alert (if they were't already).

2. The light box wasn't close enough. In which case, it would have to be plenty far away, enough time for the lights to go out and the marines to think, "Hey, I think something is going on, and perhaps we should step up our guard."

Like I said, bad writing.

You have no idea what materials Destiny is constructed of or what the layout of the ship is. I think it far more likely that Destiny's doors are soundproof when closed. If armory guards had just heard a shot I guarantee they would have immediately have drawn their weapons and gotten in an alert position. The fact that they didn't obviously means they didn't hear the shot and weren't warned.

There are two possible scenarios. Mine that the guards were unaware of any upcoming trouble and were surprised and shot. Yours has two profoundly inept guards standing there blissfully ignorant after having heard a gunshot and radio warning of an impending attack.

I want to be perfectly clear on this. You are suggesting that your scenario is what must have happened because the guards must have heard the entire walkie talkie conversations because only one general military channel must have been used and they must have heard the gunshot because the sound must have traveled through the walls and closed airtight door(s) regardless of their construction? Furthermore since you have clearly shown that despite having heard a radio warning and gunshot, the guards chose to ignore everything and stand there blissfully ignorant and defenseless that the show’s writing must have been bad?

Kai, I must admit at times you are unique in your interpretations and conclusions of story events.


Once, In the chest, actually. Punctured a lung. It was a strange feeling, laying there, feeling this burning pain sensation; I was mostly in shock, which probably protected my mind from major pain. I didn't really feel like moving, although I know I could have, sorta like when you're tired and don't wanna get up from bed. I did watch the shooter run away, though.

Did you get up and pursue the shooter or walk around or have a conversation with someone?


Getting shot does not equal instant death, though.

Luckily for you it didn't. What caliber of bullet were you shot with? Destiny's guards were shot with a .45 which is a very big caliber bullet.

Imho suggesting that the guards should have been able to get off a couple of shots off is frankly preposterous.

Blackhole
November 18th, 2010, 12:05 PM
Kaiphantom,

Kai you have been lucky that your real life experiences have on two occasions (that come to mind) often supported your debates on this forum. In a earlier debate you brought up how serving on a FBI murder trial had offered valuable insight into your understanding of entrapment and how this lent proof to your assertion that Rush was blameless in the shuttle incident and now having been shot in the chest you can assert how the guards should have been able to get off a couple of shots. Most of us have not had such unique life experiences to draw from.

pipi
November 18th, 2010, 02:14 PM
I wanted some sort of machine gun rampage with lots of spray. Oh well...

Kaiphantom
November 18th, 2010, 02:49 PM
No it is not the most likely explanation. It there was one general military frequency why were the guards in relaxed position when they were shot? If they had been warned that one of the LA was probably about to attack the armory they would have drawn their guns and been in an alert position. Since they weren't then they hadn't been warned.

Or, they were stupid. There is more than one explanation.


You have no idea what materials Destiny is constructed of or what the layout of the ship is. I think it far more likely that Destiny's doors are soundproof when closed.

It's really bad to assume things that you have no proof of, especially when science and the show itself contradict you. When Young was taking all the air out of Telford's room, he was able to yell through the door and Telford was able to hear him. This would indicate that Destiny's doors are not soundproof. If you have proof the contrary, we'd like to hear it.


There are two possible scenarios. Mine that the guards were unaware of any upcoming trouble and were surprised and shot. Yours has two profoundly inept guards standing there blissfully ignorant after having heard a gunshot and radio warning of an impending attack.

I want to be perfectly clear on this. You are suggesting that your scenario is what must have happened because the guards must have heard the entire walkie talkie conversations because only one general military channel must have been used and they must have heard the gunshot because the sound must have traveled through the walls and closed airtight door(s) regardless of their construction? Furthermore since you have clearly shown that despite having heard a radio warning and gunshot, the guards chose to ignore everything and stand there blissfully ignorant and defenseless that the show’s writing must have been bad?

I've already proved that the doors aren't soundproof. A door can be airtight and yet not soundproof. Thus, it is a fact that if Simeon was close enough to the armory, then the guards would have heard the shot. If they didn't hear the shot, then it meant that Simeon was actually quite far from the armory when he fired. If so, there was a long gap of time between when the lights turned off, to when he showed up. That gives the guards, if they are smart, plenty of warning that something is going on, and "Uh, maybe we, uh, better get ready or something?"

My position is supported by evidence. Your position so far is only supported by guesses; one of which I've proved false.

Blackhole, I must admit, your interpretation of events that defies science, evidence, and logic is quite interesting at times. Now, can we get past these thinly-veiled ad hominen and return to addressing facts?


Did you get up and pursue the shooter or walk around or have a conversation with someone?

No, but if I had a gun, I probably could have fired back. I did turn partially to see if he was going to shoot me again or come after me, but he was already running, probably afraid of any attention he might get due to the noise; guns are ****in' LOUD. Anyone who has handled one will tell you this. Which further gives rise to the notion that Simeon was a great distance away when he fired his shot that took out the lights.


Kai you have been lucky that your real life experiences have on two occasions (that come to mind) often supported your debates on this forum. In a earlier debate you brought up how serving on a FBI murder trial had offered valuable insight into your understanding of entrapment and how this lent proof to your assertion that Rush was blameless in the shuttle incident and now having been shot in the chest you can assert how the guards should have been able to get off a couple of shots. Most of us have not had such unique life experiences to draw from.

Perhaps it might be better to listen to those who have had experience you haven't? People have a lot of different experiences throughout their life; some of us really get out there and do things. But my FBI trial wasn't so much experience, as anyone can look up the proper case law dealing with the issues we were talking about. I only brought it up because it was the closest thing I had that related to what was going on, and I wanted to put it in legal terms.

Many people here have had experiences that they bring up; I am hardly unique. I've also had lots of debates where I haven't brought up any personal experiences. Just the nature of things.

The Mighty 6 platoon
November 18th, 2010, 03:48 PM
Perhaps it might be better to listen to those who have had experience you haven't? People have a lot of different experiences throughout their life; some of us really get out there and do things. But my FBI trial wasn't so much experience, as anyone can look up the proper case law dealing with the issues we were talking about. I only brought it up because it was the closest thing I had that related to what was going on, and I wanted to put it in legal terms.

Many people here have had experiences that they bring up; I am hardly unique. I've also had lots of debates where I haven't brought up any personal experiences. Just the nature of things.
Well your quite unique in having a personnel experience for every occasion, including being shot. So either you have had one of the most exciting and varied lives I have ever come across, or your helping Walther Mitty write a few new chapters for his next book.

Blackhole
November 18th, 2010, 05:57 PM
Or, they were stupid. There is more than one explanation.

Your scenarios often require the characters to be stupid. For someone who has only written anime fan fiction I think it is insulting to SGU's writers and generally condescending to use that description as often as you do.


It's really bad to assume things that you have no proof of, especially when science and the show itself contradict you. When Young was taking all the air out of Telford's room, he was able to yell through the door and Telford was able to hear him. This would indicate that Destiny's doors are not soundproof. If you have proof the contrary, we'd like to hear it.

I've already proved that the doors aren't soundproof. A door can be airtight and yet not soundproof. Thus, it is a fact that if Simeon was close enough to the armory, then the guards would have heard the shot. If they didn't hear the shot, then it meant that Simeon was actually quite far from the armory when he fired. If so, there was a long gap of time between when the lights turned off, to when he showed up. That gives the guards, if they are smart, plenty of warning that something is going on, and "Uh, maybe we, uh, better get ready or something?"

I haven't claimed proof of anything. But I don't like to pick scenarios that do require the characters to be complete fools. In my first post on the topic I said the doors were likely nearly sound proof. The fact that Young had to yell for Telford to barely hear him proves that point. Whatever science you are alluding too doesn't contradict me. Telford was behind a small compartment room door. Section doors are going to likely be thicker and more sound proof. All Simeon had to do was go through a section door and around a corner and the guards wouldn't have heard the shot. If his route passed through a hub then he would have gone through two door. The point is, not hearing the sound can easily be explained away to just about anyone except you.


My position is supported by evidence. Your position so far is only supported by guesses; one of which I've proved false.

The only fact you have brought up is that the compartment room doors are nearly soundproof. You are the one whose assertion requires the guards to be fools. My explanation doesn't.


Blackhole, I must admit, your interpretation of events that defies science, evidence, and logic is quite interesting at times. Now, can we get past these thinly-veiled ad hominen and return to addressing facts?

No, but if I had a gun, I probably could have fired back. I did turn partially to see if he was going to shoot me again or come after me, but he was already running, probably afraid of any attention he might get due to the noise; guns are ****in' LOUD. Anyone who has handled one will tell you this. Which further gives rise to the notion that Simeon was a great distance away when he fired his shot that took out the lights.

Perhaps it might be better to listen to those who have had experience you haven't? People have a lot of different experiences throughout their life; some of us really get out there and do things. But my FBI trial wasn't so much experience, as anyone can look up the proper case law dealing with the issues we were talking about. I only brought it up because it was the closest thing I had that related to what was going on, and I wanted to put it in legal terms.

Many people here have had experiences that they bring up; I am hardly unique. I've also had lots of debates where I haven't brought up any personal experiences. Just the nature of things.

What science do you keep alluding too? Your scenario requires the guards to be complete fools. How is that logical in the slightest? You expect us to believe that writers of SGU's caliber would be so sloppy to create guard characters that would foolishly ignore walkie talkie warnings and a gunshot and not assume a defensive position? Even for you this is outlandish.

You often make these ridiculous claims and when someone calls you on them you go through these convoluted mental acrobatics trying to justify them. Your assertion that the guards shot in the chest should have been able to get off a couple of shots is probably the silliest argument you have tried to make yet. To make matters worse you counter with these Walter Mitty moments trying to convince us that you have had some direct experience and (amazingly) were yourself, actually shot in the chest. Your “I was on a FBI murder trial" is another one.

k1037
November 18th, 2010, 09:15 PM
Several thousand soldiers from the most heavily armed and trained military on Earth (U.S.) have lost their lives to sheep herders armed with bombs they made in their kitchen and guns which are decades old (enemies in Afghanistan/Iraq), and those soldiers are there to hunt them.

It happens. Even in the green zone, an area of Baghdad completely surrounded by tall concrete blast/Bremer walls, with the only entry points being heavily armed checkpoints, and several battalions of soldiers stationed there, dozens of our soldiers (and hundreds of civilians/international soldiers/Iraqi security forces) died!

Destiny has what, 30 or 40? Assuming long 12-hour shifts, that's 4 guarding the armory every day, another 4 guarding the gate room, another 16 (9 LA are on board, Ginn was unguarded, that means two shifts of 8 = 16) guarding the LA + 2 on Chloe. Becker in the mess, TJ+her asian assistant doing medical stuff, Young/Scott/Greer/James occupied by more important things... that's pretty much everyone. Where exactly were they going to get the soldiers to have multiple guards per prisoner?

Also, Stargate fans have been seriously spoiled by Ronan and Teal'c. As awesome as they were, neither one of them should have made it past their second or third episode if we were going for realism. Why is it that a group of 4 adventurers (and 1 of the 4 in both SG-1 and SGA was an academic type not especially handy with weapons) could take down dozens or even hundreds of soldiers every week, rush headlong into the most heavily fortified bases/ships in the entire galaxy, win fistfights with gods, and ultimately escape without a scratch, but when one bad guy takes down 5 soldiers, it's hax?

garhkal
November 18th, 2010, 10:58 PM
How many times have you been shot?

How many people have you talked to that have been shot in the chest and were still able to function and get off a couple of shots?

Getting shot in the chest is a huge trauma and would be imo at the very least immediately debilitating and more likely often shortly fatal. I doubt anyone would be in a position to do anything like getting off a couple of shots.

And it also depends on what you get shot with..

Steelbox
November 19th, 2010, 03:10 AM
The stupidity in my view is that not one door was locked. The armory should have been remotely locked from the bridge. And only the Colonel should allow access to it. They should have implemented an secure perimeter where only the inside controll works. And the last door leading to it should only be openable from the bridge.

Blackhole
November 19th, 2010, 04:14 AM
The stupidity in my view is that not one door was locked. The armory should have been remotely locked from the bridge. And only the Colonel should allow access to it. They should have implemented an secure perimeter where only the inside controll works. And the last door leading to it should only be openable from the bridge.

Your suggestions would have made the armory more secure but maybe after the attempted mutiny by the civilians the military didn't want to leave the armory in a position where a civilian from a computer terminal would be able to lock them out of it. As K1037 pointed out the military has a limited number of soldiers to man watches and guard duty. Unfortunately that means a trained individual like Simeon may be able to get around them. Look at all the precautions that are put in place to prevent bank robberies yet they are still able to be robbed.

Ultimately this is a TV show and the writers wanted Simeon to be able to gain access so he could escape to the planet. Watching him kill and wound a number of soldiers made him appear that much more brutal and threatening. Subjecting any piece of fiction to too much scrutiny is going to find flaws with it. Imo this isn't indicative of bad writing but beyond a certain point is nitpicking.

Kaiphantom
November 19th, 2010, 03:29 PM
Well your quite unique in having a personnel experience for every occasion, including being shot. So either you have had one of the most exciting and varied lives I have ever come across, or your helping Walther Mitty write a few new chapters for his next book.

Why not just come out and call me a liar and be done with it? Why be so coy and attempt to tip toe around it?

I've had exactly one experience relating to countless debates I've had here on in this forum. The other experience is more of a "eh, kinda" thing because it was just something that reminded me of how law goes.

So if you're argument is "Hmm, kinda convenient for you to have two experiences that relate to two debates" then you'd have to logically extend that argument to: "Oh, but no experiences related to the dozens of other debates you've had, so it's obviously just chance."

Seriously, do you live in your mother's basement and have no experiences of your own? Some people are actively out there doing stuff, and have been shot. Hard as it may be for you to accept. You don't have to accept it, but if you're gonna call me a liar, then just be honest about it. Then I can call you a liar, and we can behave like schoolyard children instead of actually discussing debates like mature adults. Let me know what you decide.


Your scenarios often require the characters to be stupid. For someone who has only written anime fan fiction I think it is insulting to SGU's writers and generally condescending to use that description as often as you do.

I call it likes I sees it. Hell, weren't you one of the ones who thought Young's actions were rather stupid when the LA came onboard? So if you believe so, then you would be condescending as well. It's okay, join the club! There's no shame over here. =)


I haven't claimed proof of anything. But I don't like to pick scenarios that do require the characters to be complete fools. In my first post on the topic I said the doors were likely nearly sound proof. The fact that Young had to yell for Telford to barely hear him proves that point. Whatever science you are alluding too doesn't contradict me. Telford was behind a small compartment room door. Section doors are going to likely be thicker and more sound proof. All Simeon had to do was go through a section door and around a corner and the guards wouldn't have heard the shot. If his route passed through a hub then he would have gone through two door. The point is, not hearing the sound can easily be explained away to just about anyone except you.

Once again, you haven't even heard a gun go off. Those things are LOUD; forget what you see on TV. Young raised his voice, but he didn't really yell and Telford was able to hear him.

And your argument was that the doors were soundproof; I proved you wrong, and so you're trying to change your viewpoint to; "Well, um, maybe MOSTLY soundproof then!" which doesn't make a lot of sense, but there ya go. You have no proof of this, and pretty much you have no proof of anything. Until you do, further discussion is pointless; all you bring is conjecture.


The only fact you have brought up is that the compartment room doors are nearly soundproof. You are the one whose assertion requires the guards to be fools. My explanation doesn't.

Yours also makes no sense. Like I said, guns are loud; so loud, that people on shooting ranges generally wear ear protection. Simeon basically set off an extremely loud firecracker, and any marine will instantly recognize that sound within a half a mile, easy. If Simeon was outside that range, then they had plenty of time to note that something was wrong, and to be on alert.

That's it. That's your only two choices. Pick one: Simeon was too far, or Simeon was too close. We'll go with whichever one you want.

You're also forgetting one other thing: you're assuming there would be closed doors between there, but the only closed doors we generally see are to quarters, or other special rooms. In short, it was far more likely there was a completely open hallway between the two places.


What science do you keep alluding too?

The science of how sound travels and guns. You should go to a gun range sometime; you'll find it very educational. And let me know if you need more information on the physics of sound.

The Mighty 6 platoon
November 19th, 2010, 04:08 PM
Why not just come out and call me a liar and be done with it? Why be so coy and attempt to tip toe around it?

I've had exactly one experience relating to countless debates I've had here on in this forum. The other experience is more of a "eh, kinda" thing because it was just something that reminded me of how law goes.

So if you're argument is "Hmm, kinda convenient for you to have two experiences that relate to two debates" then you'd have to logically extend that argument to: "Oh, but no experiences related to the dozens of other debates you've had, so it's obviously just chance."

Seriously, do you live in your mother's basement and have no experiences of your own? Some people are actively out there doing stuff, and have been shot. Hard as it may be for you to accept. You don't have to accept it, but if you're gonna call me a liar, then just be honest about it. Then I can call you a liar, and we can behave like schoolyard children instead of actually discussing debates like mature adults. Let me know what you decide.



My God, this thread delivers the laughs. "Some people are actively out there doing stuff, and have been shot." Righto Wyatt Earp please do carry on. Don't stop on my account.

But no, unfortunately I don't believe you (nor do a lot of other people judging from all the green I received). I have no idea of your integrity, your trustworthiness, whether you really are a liar or not. And this being the internet and those things rather difficult to verify over it, I tend to err on the cautious side when it comes to remarkable tales and personnel experience, especially when they appear at such convenient times in an argument.

ggf31416
November 19th, 2010, 05:35 PM
You often make these ridiculous claims and when someone calls you on them you go through these convoluted mental acrobatics trying to justify them. Your assertion that the guards shot in the chest should have been able to get off a couple of shots is probably the silliest argument you have tried to make yet. .

Search the internet for "Stopping power". As long as the nervious system is not damaged, even after the heart is stopped a person is likely to remain conscious for 5 - 15 seconds.
However SGU uses movie rules, not real life rules, and in the movies a person shot in the chest drops dead instantly unless they are main characters.

Kaiphantom
November 19th, 2010, 05:56 PM
My God, this thread delivers the laughs. "Some people are actively out there doing stuff, and have been shot." Righto Wyatt Earp please do carry on. Don't stop on my account.

But no, unfortunately I don't believe you (nor do a lot of other people judging from all the green I received). I have no idea of your integrity, your trustworthiness, whether you really are a liar or not. And this being the internet and those things rather difficult to verify over it, I tend to err on the cautious side when it comes to remarkable tales and personnel experience, especially when they appear at such convenient times in an argument.

Ah, right. I forgot. All that matters is how much green someone receives, eh? I suppose you're right, and there aren't many people who get shot these days. Hrm, I've received quite a bit of green, too. By your logic, there are people that agree with me, too. Glad we can decide things based on dick-size instead of, you know, actual facts.

And convenient?

I have 50+ debates here, and my life experiences come up in one or two of them, and you call that convenient? You have have a strange notion of statistics, good sir.

At any rate, you don't have to believe me. You are more than welcome to visit forums where those who have survived gunshots can tell you all about their experiences. I suspect you won't, however. And you are free to not believe me, of course; in the larger context, it really doesn't matter.

The next time someone experiences some debilitating physical ailment, I'm sure they'll be overjoyed to know how you feel about it. "Zounds, you were raped!? Sorry young lass, but I think you're just making it up!"

tinerin
November 19th, 2010, 06:10 PM
I think the big issue here is that yes, in real life, it shouldn't have been that easy for Simeon to do what he did, but it's child's play compared to what SGC personnel have done throughout SG-1 and Atlantis.


oh and Kaiphantom, the problem with constantly bringing your personal experiences into an online discussion is the anonymity of the internet. Yes, you claimed that the court documents exist but unless you provide us with your full name, noone could possibly verify that it does exist and even if you did provide a name, there would be no way for anyone to verify that it's actually your real name. If I claimed that I've spent time in Irag and Afghanistan (which isn't true) noone could know for sure that I'm not lieing; if I really wanted to, I could give the name of a guy who has spent time in both places because he sits five feet away from me in an office. And if someone with a sufficient DoD clearance actually looked him up in DEERS or JPAS, they could even verify that information for themself. But the fact is that pretty much everyone on the internet lies at some point so it holds little weight in online arguments.

Kaiphantom
November 19th, 2010, 06:32 PM
I think the big issue here is that yes, in real life, it shouldn't have been that easy for Simeon to do what he did, but it's child's play compared to what SGC personnel have done throughout SG-1 and Atlantis.


oh and Kaiphantom, the problem with constantly bringing your personal experiences into an online discussion is the anonymity of the internet. Yes, you claimed that the court documents exist but unless you provide us with your full name, noone could possibly verify that it does exist and even if you did provide a name, there would be no way for anyone to verify that it's actually your real name. If I claimed that I've spent time in Irag and Afghanistan (which isn't true) noone could know for sure that I'm not lieing; if I really wanted to, I could give the name of a guy who has spent time in both places because he sits five feet away from me in an office. And if someone with a sufficient DoD clearance actually looked him up in DEERS or JPAS, they could even verify that information for themself. But the fact is that pretty much everyone on the internet lies at some point so it holds little weight in online arguments.

You have a point. Perhaps it's just me, but I tend to assume what someone says about themselves to be true, unless proven otherwise. But the great thing is, you don't have to take my word for it.

I"ll give you this guy, who was shot with a gun (http://blisstree.com/feel/whats-it-feel-like-to-get-shot-with-a-gun/) a .22, like I was. Mine didn't ricochet nor cause as much internal damage, but it still hurt just as much and made breathing hard. WARNING: his descriptions aren't for the faint of heart.

And here are some more opinions that give you an idea on the subject of being shot. (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=467321)

One of my favorite lines there: "The truth is, you can shoot ten different people with the same gun and
get ten different results." Which really is true. So statistically speaking, it's highly unlikely for everyone to react the same way in succession when being shot (ie, each Marine Simeon shot wouldn't react the same way). At least one of them would have been conscious enough to fire back; but that's TV for ya.

And like he said (and I mentioned before) it was mainly the shock that really takes you out of action. For me, it was partly because it was something I hadn't experience before, a kind of denial in the mind on what just happened (and it was so sudden, I barely had time to register that he was going to shoot me). It was also a sense of violation, that someone had so completely and utterly took me out of action; somewhat familiar to getting into a car accident, or being hit by a car, and feeling shaky and scared after, but 10 times worse. Left me with nightmares for years afterward.

But there ya go. You don't have to believe I was shot, but ultimately it's immaterial when you can look up information online. Apparently, not a lot of people are capable of doing that....

Duneknight
November 19th, 2010, 07:14 PM
in real life, stuff like that happens all the time. and im not gonna waste my time digging stuff like that up. one man in stealth can take on destiny.

tinerin
November 19th, 2010, 07:59 PM
You have a point. Perhaps it's just me, but I tend to assume what someone says about themselves to be true, unless proven otherwise. But the great thing is, you don't have to take my word for it.

I"ll give you this guy, who was shot with a gun (http://blisstree.com/feel/whats-it-feel-like-to-get-shot-with-a-gun/) a .22, like I was. Mine didn't ricochet nor cause as much internal damage, but it still hurt just as much and made breathing hard. WARNING: his descriptions aren't for the faint of heart.

And here are some more opinions that give you an idea on the subject of being shot. (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=467321)

One of my favorite lines there: "The truth is, you can shoot ten different people with the same gun and
get ten different results." Which really is true. So statistically speaking, it's highly unlikely for everyone to react the same way in succession when being shot (ie, each Marine Simeon shot wouldn't react the same way). At least one of them would have been conscious enough to fire back; but that's TV for ya.

And like he said (and I mentioned before) it was mainly the shock that really takes you out of action. For me, it was partly because it was something I hadn't experience before, a kind of denial in the mind on what just happened (and it was so sudden, I barely had time to register that he was going to shoot me). It was also a sense of violation, that someone had so completely and utterly took me out of action; somewhat familiar to getting into a car accident, or being hit by a car, and feeling shaky and scared after, but 10 times worse. Left me with nightmares for years afterward.

But there ya go. You don't have to believe I was shot, but ultimately it's immaterial when you can look up information online. Apparently, not a lot of people are capable of doing that....

But this is scifi after all. What if the weapons aren't your standard guns but have been modified with alien tech to be more powerful? What if the ammo that they're using isn't conventional ammo but has naquadah/trinium/neutronium/whatever in it? What if the Lucian Alliance like to coat their ammo in some nasty alien poison?

Azzers
November 19th, 2010, 08:32 PM
False. Sound propagates by vibration, usually by vibration of air molecules, but it can also propagate through practically any other material. So we have two issues:

1. The light box was close enough, in which case the marines should have heard the shots. That, above all else, should have put them on high alert (if they were't already).

2. The light box wasn't close enough. In which case, it would have to be plenty far away, enough time for the lights to go out and the marines to think, "Hey, I think something is going on, and perhaps we should step up our guard."

Like I said, bad writing.



My only problem here is that you're making assumptions. Yes, sound does propogate through solid matter. However, it also attenuates depending on the material. There are certain things (unless someone paid attention to it from a previous episode) we don't know such as the chemical composition and density of the doors. While a gunshot is a LOT of sound to attenuate, you can't jump to bad writing based on that assumption.

The second assumption I have less of a problem with but it still implies that we know that lights don't go out on Destiny. Considering how many times they've referenced faulty power conduits, I'd find that a bit of an extreme assumption. I'm not implying that I'm not fanwanking in order to answer your question either. Had they not cut Young's warning the guards into the story before they were shot, I'd have more of a problem with this assumption.

That said, we're nitpicking. We're taking a story about Young, Scott, Rush, and Wallace and focusing on phlebotonum. And there was more than this. There was also the Armstrong mystical math powers moment. And who can forget Young talking Eli down with what had to be the most abrupt end to a meaty conversation ever?

garhkal
November 20th, 2010, 02:50 AM
On the side of the sound propegating. WE do have the suicide of baldy, who was heard by several people in different parts of the ship.

The Mighty 6 platoon
November 20th, 2010, 03:32 AM
On the side of the sound propegating. WE do have the suicide of baldy, who was heard by several people in different parts of the ship.

Err you mean Sgt Spencer. The guy no one on the ship noticed had blown his brains out except Rush?

Gunfire is loud but it's not utterly deafening unless there's a lot of it in close proximity. People wear ear plugs on ranges to prevent long term hearing damage but you stand at a range for 10 minutes without ear defenders and you'll be fine.

Things like metal bulkheads would tend to block the sound of gunfire. I think it's perfectly believable that Simeon could have been 2 or 3 corridors away, close enough to get to the Marines quickly, but far enough away that any gunshot was muffled.

Kaiphantom
November 20th, 2010, 08:35 AM
My only problem here is that you're making assumptions. Yes, sound does propogate through solid matter. However, it also attenuates depending on the material. There are certain things (unless someone paid attention to it from a previous episode) we don't know such as the chemical composition and density of the doors. While a gunshot is a LOT of sound to attenuate, you can't jump to bad writing based on that assumption.

It is partially an assumption, but I base it on Young talking loudly through a closed door and Telford able to hear him. A gunshot is much louder than that, and has more of a "piercing" quality. But this is also assuming there were closed doors between Simeon and the marines. Given the fact that the ONLY closed doors we ever see are entrances to rooms or the shuttles, it's quite likely there were none. Yes, there are doors in the corridors, but they seem to be kept open. They are only ever closed in special circumstances (air leaking, civilians taking over the ship, etc.).


The second assumption I have less of a problem with but it still implies that we know that lights don't go out on Destiny. Considering how many times they've referenced faulty power conduits, I'd find that a bit of an extreme assumption. I'm not implying that I'm not fanwanking in order to answer your question either. Had they not cut Young's warning the guards into the story before they were shot, I'd have more of a problem with this assumption.

Part of being a marine and a guard, is that as soon as something happens, you assume the worst and prepare accordingly until the higher-ups tell you it's okay. That said, there was nothing to indicate that Scott, Young, or anyone else were on anything but the general military frequency. Walkie-talkies tend to broadcast to anyone who has one, unless you specifically tell someone to go to a different channel; we actually see this in an earlier episode, where Scott tells young to go to a different channel so no one else could hear them.

Thus, the guards would have heard Ginn was down, all the LA were locked down except Simeon, and then the lights go out. Under those conditions, what would you think?


That said, we're nitpicking. We're taking a story about Young, Scott, Rush, and Wallace and focusing on phlebotonum. And there was more than this. There was also the Armstrong mystical math powers moment. And who can forget Young talking Eli down with what had to be the most abrupt end to a meaty conversation ever?

I'll agree that it's partial nitpicking, but there have been quite a few things lately that strained my ability to suspend my disbelief, which makes the littler things that much more jarring. If earlier people hadn't been so stupid, and plot holes had been properly covered, then I probably wouldn't be talking about this now. I can even forgive a minor plot hole or two if everything else is going great.

But even if I ignore things in this episode, there is still quite a bit to be desired that I can find fault with. I don't nitpick Super-Chloe much, because we don't know what's happening to her, and there are a number of plausible scenarios which would affect her like that. It's a bit grating, but it's more of a personal issue for me, just because I don't particularly care for how they are handling Chloe's character development. But this isn't the thread for that, heh.

Edit: Spencer doesn't count, because his quarters were said to be far away from everyone else. Without knowing exactly where in the ship, and what kinds of distances were involved, it's easily plausible that he was far enough away for no one to hear him blow his brains out. It also seems like he killed himself at "night" when most people would have been asleep, too.

tinerin
November 20th, 2010, 10:14 AM
Part of being a marine and a guard, is that as soon as something happens, you assume the worst and prepare accordingly until the higher-ups tell you it's okay.

There have been quite a few cases throughout the entire SG franchise where both the good guys and bad guys have failed to follow this rule...Also, Destiny is known to have alot of power issues and it's possible that rolling blackouts happen very frequently on the ship...

Kaiphantom
November 20th, 2010, 01:04 PM
There have been quite a few cases throughout the entire SG franchise where both the good guys and bad guys have failed to follow this rule...Also, Destiny is known to have alot of power issues and it's possible that rolling blackouts happen very frequently on the ship...

Um, when?

The first power issue was Darkness/Light, and there was a specific reason for that. All other times, it was either powered down for travel between galaxies, or they were under attack. Given that they weren't having power issues nor traveling between galaxies, everyone would be left with one conclusion.

thekillman
November 21st, 2010, 02:15 AM
you do know that the scene literally went like this:

*power drops*
Guards * hey the power drops*
*boom*
Guard 2: WTF *turns to face simeon and shoot him*
*boom*

Simeon then keeps his weapon trained on the second guard while he punches the door opener.


there was no chance for either. no chance to aim, to shout, nothing.

Blackhole
November 21st, 2010, 07:07 AM
And here are some more opinions that give you an idea on the subject of being shot. (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=467321)

One of my favorite lines there: "The truth is, you can shoot ten different people with the same gun and get ten different results." Which really is true. So statistically speaking, it's highly unlikely for everyone to react the same way in succession when being shot (ie, each Marine Simeon shot wouldn't react the same way). At least one of them would have been conscious enough to fire back; but that's TV for ya.

But there ya go. You don't have to believe I was shot, but ultimately it's immaterial when you can look up information online. Apparently, not a lot of people are capable of doing that....

I checked your reference on subject of being shot. And as usual you quoted a passage out of context that seems to prove your point. The author did say that "The truth is, you can shoot ten different people with the same gun and get ten different results." but he went on to say:

"A .38 caliber and .45 caliber are large caliber bullets. They travel at a low velocity, which makes them relatively easy to stop. If they hit someone in the chest it's like hitting them with a baseball bat..."

"On the other hand, any of these calibers can cause instant clinical death and spontaneous drop if they sever a large vessel (such as an aorta, for example) or hit the heart or brain. In the case of major vessels or the heart, this is relative to a massive drop in blood pressure. In reality the person falls unconscious due to the drop in blood pressure or shock and death follows in only a few seconds or minutes, giving the appearance that he dropped dead?."

His conclusion was:

"In my personal experience, if you shoot a man in the chest he will go into shock and fall down no matter what you shoot him with. If you shoot him with something big enough, he will fall down and die."

Simeon shot everyone with .45 caliber bullets.

Blackhole
November 21st, 2010, 08:11 AM
I call it likes I sees it. Hell, weren't you one of the ones who thought Young's actions were rather stupid when the LA came onboard? So if you believe so, then you would be condescending as well. It's okay, join the club! There's no shame over here. =)

And so did the writers. That was one of the points of episode. Young was psychologically deteriorating and was making bad decisions. I don’t use that description for nearly every episode as you do.


Once again, you haven't even heard a gun go off. Those things are LOUD; forget what you see on TV. Young raised his voice, but he didn't really yell and Telford was able to hear him.

And your argument was that the doors were soundproof; I proved you wrong, and so you're trying to change your viewpoint to; "Well, um, maybe MOSTLY soundproof then!" which doesn't make a lot of sense, but there ya go. You have no proof of this, and pretty much you have no proof of anything. Until you do, further discussion is pointless; all you bring is conjecture.

Yours also makes no sense. Like I said, guns are loud; so loud, that people on shooting ranges generally wear ear protection. Simeon basically set off an extremely loud firecracker, and any marine will instantly recognize that sound within a half a mile, easy. If Simeon was outside that range, then they had plenty of time to note that something was wrong, and to be on alert.

That's it. That's your only two choices. Pick one: Simeon was too far, or Simeon was too close. We'll go with whichever one you want.

Yes I know gunshots are loud but they are not that loud.

Telford and Young were inches away from the door and they could barely hear each other. The sound of the light box gunshot had to travel down a corridor, likely around a corner and through one or two closed doors. The attenuation effects of sound travel through thick metal doors are obvious to just about anyone except you. And if he went around a corner then the sound would be reverberative and be greatly attenuated.

As I and others have said over and over again you have no idea what the construction and layout was of the Destiny. The only fact you have stubbornly clung to for evidence for your scenario was the fact that Young and Telford could barely communicate through a closed compartment door when they were each inches away from it.

I know you think your anime fan fiction experience qualifies you in all things writing. Of course Simeon's assault scenario created by the SGU writers was sloppy and poorly written. Of course it requires the guards to be complete fools. Of course it is logical and reasonable that the writers of SGU's caliber would have the guards foolishly ignore both walkie talkie warnings and a gunshot and choose not to assume a defensive posture. Of course you can't help if the characters of SGU often behave stupidly. You call it as you see it.


You're also forgetting one other thing: you're assuming there would be closed doors between there, but the only closed doors we generally see are to quarters, or other special rooms. In short, it was far more likely there was a completely open hallway between the two places.

On a spaceship where decompression is a threat leaving doors open is generally not a good idea. It was far more likely that the doors were closed.


The science of how sound travels and guns. You should go to a gun range sometime; you'll find it very educational. And let me know if you need more information on the physics of sound.

I know you like to consider yourself an expert on everything you write about. But thank you, if I need expert information I will seek it out from someone who actually has some.

Kaiphantom
November 21st, 2010, 09:43 AM
I checked your reference on subject of being shot. And as usual you quoted a passage out of context that seems to prove your point. The author did say that "The truth is, you can shoot ten different people with the same gun and get ten different results." but he went on to say:

"A .38 caliber and .45 caliber are large caliber bullets. They travel at a low velocity, which makes them relatively easy to stop. If they hit someone in the chest it's like hitting them with a baseball bat..."

"On the other hand, any of these calibers can cause instant clinical death and spontaneous drop of they sever a large vessel (such as an aorta, for example) or hit the heart or brain. In the case of major vessels or the heart, this is relative to a massive drop in blood pressure. In reality the person falls unconscious due to the drop in blood pressure or shock and death follows in only a few seconds or minutes, giving the appearance that he dropped dead?."

His conclusion was:

"In my personal experience, if you shoot a man in the chest he will go into shock and fall down no matter what you shoot him with. If you shoot him with something big enough, he will fall down and die."

Simeon shot everyone with .45 caliber bullets.

And you know this how? It was never said what kind of gun or bullets Simeon used.

You also miss my point; it was never that the guards wouldn't fall down, it was that after they went down (and yes, anyone would when shot with a gun due to shock alone, if nothing else), that there is a fairly good chance they wouldn't immediately die. He shot each one once then went into the armory and spent some time gathering stuff. At the very least, by the time he came out, one of the guards would have been able to shoot him. Nothing you quoted contradicts that.

When you start with a conclusion and try to jam facts around it, naturally it's not gonna come off too well.


And so did the writers. That was one of the points of episode. Young was psychologically deteriorating and was making bad decisions. I don’t use that description for nearly every episode as you do.

Great! We're agreed; stupidity abounds!


Yes I know gunshots are loud but they are not that loud.

Telford and Young were inches away from the door and they could barely hear each other. The sound of the light box gunshot had to travel down a corridor, likely around a corner and through one or two closed doors. The attenuation effects of sound travel through thick metal doors are obvious to just about anyone except you. And if he went around a corner then the sound would be reverberative and be greatly attenuated.

As I and others have said over and over again you have no idea what the construction and layout was of the Destiny. The only fact you have stubbornly clung to for evidence for your scenario was the fact that Young and Telford could barely communicate through a closed compartment door when they were each inches away from it.

The problem is, even if we accept your assumption about the doors blocking a lot of sound, you have no evidence there were any closed doors in the way. Indeed, all evidence points to the conclusion that the only doors that are routinely closed in normal circumstances, are those leading to rooms or sealed off areas of the ship.

So, in order to accept your theory, we have to accept not one, but two baseless assumptions. That isn't exactly steady ground to form a theory on, especially when one of your baseless assumptions (that doors block all sound) was blatantly proved false. So, are you going to keep modifying your baseless assumptions? Or will you go with Occam's Razor and accept the simplest solution is usually the correct one?


I know your anime fan fiction experience qualifies you in all things writing. Of course Simeon's assault scenario created by the SGU writers was sloppy and poorly written. Of course it requires the guards to be complete fools. Of course it is logical and reasonable that the writers of SGU's caliber would have the guards foolishly ignore both walkie talkie warnings and a gunshot and choose not to assume a defensive posture. Of course you can't help if the characters of SGU often behave stupidly. You call it as you see it.

My anime fanfiction writing doesn't qualify me for much. Although I'd suggest you get into writing some fanfiction yourself, and the more important aspect, become part of a forum that will critique your writing. Because it's not so much the writing, as it is the critical feedback you get that points out plot holes and stupid actions by characters. Depending the forum, you can get anywhere from a dozen, to hundreds of people commenting. That's the biggest thing that helps you as a writer in sharpening your mind towards these things(you can hear JM talk about this when his script comes back with revisions). My earlier fanfiction was rife with plot holes and sloppy writing, where I had been told several times that it felt like the plot was pushing the characters in one direction, when I should have been writing it so the characters moved the plot. It's a subtle, but important distinction.


I know you like to consider yourself an expert on everything you write about. But thank you, if I need expert information I will seek it out from someone who actually has some.

Well, it's a good thing I tend to quote from sources to support my viewpoint, instead of, I dunno, making baseless assumptions without quoting any expert sources. Like you. I'm sure everyone here will decide to believe in random internet guy backed by no sources.

Talking about experiences, I'm sure you've at least been to high school, even if you haven't been to college. Ever write papers? Ever had the teacher tell you about a bibliography, and how important it is to cite sources to back up your viewpoints? There's an important reason for that....

Oh, but wait! If you use your experiences from high school and/or college, you would be accused of it being too "convenient that your experiences just happen to support your position in this debate"! And we can't have that. ;)

tinerin
November 21st, 2010, 10:35 AM
And you know this how? It was never said what kind of gun or bullets Simeon used.

But you don't know either. It's possible that the bullets have been modified to be more powerful than a normal bullet.


You also miss my point; it was never that the guards wouldn't fall down, it was that after they went down (and yes, anyone would when shot with a gun due to shock alone, if nothing else), that there is a fairly good chance they wouldn't immediately die. He shot each one once then went into the armory and spent some time gathering stuff. At the very least, by the time he came out, one of the guards would have been able to shoot him. Nothing you quoted contradicts that.

If I remember correctly, Simeon kept his gun pointed at the guards after he shot them as he was walking toward the armory. It would have been suicide for them to try to shoot him. Also, firing a gun into an armory is an unbelievably stupid thing to do especially knowing how much Lucian Alliance explosives are being stored in there. Sure you might stop Simeon, but there's a good chance you might kill yourself and the guard who was standing next to you and you might also destroy all our weapons in the armory or even cripple the entire ship.

Another thing you need to take into account is that these are not the healthy soldiers that you might find at an army base near your house. These guys are exhausted, malnourished, not necessarily in the best mental state, they may have been injured recently including possible concussions, they may have any medicine for minor health issues like headaches, and we don't know what side effects frequent stone use might have on their physical and/or mental health.


The problem is, even if we accept your assumption about the doors blocking a lot of sound, you have no evidence there were any closed doors in the way. Indeed, all evidence points to the conclusion that the only doors that are routinely closed in normal circumstances, are those leading to rooms or sealed off areas of the ship.

One thing though is that Destiny is a huge ship. Easily the second largest ship in the franchise next to the Atlantis type ships. So it's actually far more likely that there were closed doors between Simeon and the nearest person who could have heard the gunshot. You can't even know if they were on the same level of the ship.


So, in order to accept your theory, we have to accept not one, but two baseless assumptions. That isn't exactly steady ground to form a theory on, especially when one of your baseless assumptions (that doors block all sound) was blatantly proved false. So, are you going to keep modifying your baseless assumptions? Or will you go with Occam's Razor and accept the simplest solution is usually the correct one?

The problem is that the simplest solution is also the stupidest solution for a million year old, badly damaged spaceship that is constantly coming under attack. More likely, production reasons are why you don't see a ton of opening and closing doors. The doors are slow and loud and requires a person to stop at the closed door and manually open it. The producers would lose valuable story time if they had to show every single door opening and closing. Of course, some dude just walking into another person's quarters would be really creepy so they have to show the door there.


Well, it's a good thing I tend to quote from sources to support my viewpoint, instead of, I dunno, making baseless assumptions without quoting any expert sources. Like you. I'm sure everyone here will decide to believe in random internet guy backed by no sources.

The problem being that your sources only apply to the real world and not in a science fiction world that called quantum physics a "misconception of elementary science" in its first year.

Blackhole
November 21st, 2010, 11:59 AM
And you know this how? It was never said what kind of gun or bullets Simeon used.

The gun Simeon used looked like a Military .45.


You also miss my point; it was never that the guards wouldn't fall down, it was that after they went down (and yes, anyone would when shot with a gun due to shock alone, if nothing else), that there is a fairly good chance they wouldn't immediately die. He shot each one once then went into the armory and spent some time gathering stuff. At the very least, by the time he came out, one of the guards would have been able to shoot him. Nothing you quoted contradicts that.

When you start with a conclusion and try to jam facts around it, naturally it's not gonna come off too well.

As usual you ignore the salient points. Your own quoted expert said:

"A .38 caliber and .45 caliber are large caliber bullets. They travel at a low velocity, which makes them relatively easy to stop. If they hit someone in the chest it’s like hitting them with a baseball bat..."

"On the other hand, any of these calibers can cause instant clinical death and spontaneous drop if they sever a large vessel (such as an aorta, for example) or hit the heart or brain. In the case of major vessels or the heart, this is relative to a massive drop in blood pressure. In reality the person falls unconscious due to the drop in blood pressure or shock and death follows in only a few seconds or minutes, giving the appearance that he dropped dead?."

His conclusion was:

"In my personal experience, if you shoot a man in the chest he will go into shock and fall down no matter what you shoot him with. If you shoot him with something big enough, he will fall down and die."

Simeon shot everyone with what looked like .45 caliber bullets. and your own expert said If you shoot him with something big enough, he will fall down and die. Guess what - that is exactly what happened. Your own gun shot expert clearly refuted your assertion that the shot guards should have been able to get off a couple of shots after being shot in the chest.

It is pretty obvious to probably everyone on this forum except you that if the shock and damage to the guards' bodies was severe enough to cause immediate drops then they would not be in any physical position to return fire. Your continued attempt to justify this ridiculous assertion is even for you unbelievable to me.


Great! We're agreed; stupidity abounds!

We are not agreed on anything. I said Young made a critical error in judgment due to PTSD. That is a far cry from calling the characters stupid in every episode as you do.


The problem is, even if we accept your assumption about the doors blocking a lot of sound, you have no evidence there were any closed doors in the way. Indeed, all evidence points to the conclusion that the only doors that are routinely closed in normal circumstances, are those leading to rooms or sealed off areas of the ship.

So, in order to accept your theory, we have to accept not one, but two baseless assumptions. That isn't exactly steady ground to form a theory on, especially when one of your baseless assumptions (that doors block all sound) was blatantly proved false. So, are you going to keep modifying your baseless assumptions? Or will you go with Occam's Razor and accept the simplest solution is usually the correct one?

My assumptions are far from baseless or unreasonable.

1. Spaceships are built with heavy dense metal door that block most sound.

2. If decompression occurs on a spaceship open doors put the crew at far greater risk than do closed ones. Doors opened or closed? What is the safer and therefore the far more likely resting state they would be found in?

3. Sound traveling around a corner would be reverberative and would be greatly attenuated.

4. The armory guards were surprised and shot. What is the more likely and plausible scenario why? Were they unaware of Simeon's escape and caught off guard or were they written to be so profoundly stupid to foolishly ignore both walkie talkie warnings and a gunshot and not assume a defensive posture?

You keep throwing around words like baseless and no evidence to distract everyone from just how silly your "well the guards must have been stupid" and “the guards should have been able to get off shots after they were shot” scenarios really are.

I suspect your constant need to call the characters stupid and belittle and criticize SGU’s writing episode after episode must provide you with a sense of importance that is lacking in your life.


My anime fanfiction writing doesn't qualify me for much. Although I'd suggest you get into writing some fanfiction yourself, and the more important aspect, become part of a forum that will critique your writing. Because it's not so much the writing, as it is the critical feedback you get that points out plot holes and stupid actions by characters. Depending the forum, you can get anywhere from a dozen, to hundreds of people commenting. That's the biggest thing that helps you as a writer in sharpening your mind towards these things(you can hear JM talk about this when his script comes back with revisions). My earlier fanfiction was rife with plot holes and sloppy writing, where I had been told several times that it felt like the plot was pushing the characters in one direction, when I should have been writing it so the characters moved the plot. It's a subtle, but important distinction.

Maybe you should have paid a bit more attention in these forums. I don't think you learned much.


Well, it's a good thing I tend to quote from sources to support my viewpoint, instead of, I dunno, making baseless assumptions without quoting any expert sources. Like you. I'm sure everyone here will decide to believe in random internet guy backed by no sources.

Given the passage from your "being shot" reference was quoted out of context; that doesn't say much about your use of them. I rarely have seen a quoted reference actually support your position.


Talking about experiences, I'm sure you've at least been to high school, even if you haven't been to college. Ever write papers? Ever had the teacher tell you about a bibliography, and how important it is to cite sources to back up your viewpoints? There's an important reason for that....

Yes there is. In the future you may consider actually applying their advice on this forum.


Oh, but wait! If you use your experiences from high school and/or college, you would be accused of it being too "convenient that your experiences just happen to support your position in this debate"! And we can't have that. ;)

If they were Walter Mitty moments as I believe yours were then I certainly would deserve to be.

The Mighty 6 platoon
November 21st, 2010, 03:18 PM
The gun Simeon used was a Military .45.


Actually it was a 9mm Berretta 92FS. How do I know? I know the gun. Anyone who wants further confirmation can go here for it.
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Stargate_Universe

Your argument still stands however. The article you use references .38 ammunition, which 9mm has roughly similar, or arguably slighter higher performance to it.

Jonzey
November 22nd, 2010, 06:48 PM
I can't believe you guys are still arguing with him. A brick wall would concede defeat before he will.

garhkal
November 23rd, 2010, 02:01 AM
He did seem like he was wanting to give up info just after he got stomped into the dirt.

The Mighty 6 platoon
November 23rd, 2010, 04:28 AM
I can't believe you guys are still arguing with him. A brick wall would concede defeat before he will.

http://www.muditajournal.com/wp-content/uploads/arguing-on-internet.png

Blackhole
November 23rd, 2010, 08:42 AM
http://www.muditajournal.com/wp-content/uploads/arguing-on-internet.png

Very Funny!

ZoSo
November 23rd, 2010, 11:07 AM
I don't have a problem with a 9mm dropping someone in one hit. I just don't like how they seem to die immediately. I know it's done this way on screen for a number of reasons, it just feels kinda corny to me. I'm not saying they would be able to shoot back, especially since they were surprised (therefore they'd have no adrenaline in their system to lessen the initial shock of being struck). I'm just saying that you usually don't lose consciousness before you hit the floor barring a headshot or spinal cord injury.

But seeing people all torn up and barely clinging to life ain't all that fun to watch anyway so no biggie. It's scary what tenacity the human body has sometimes.

Gollumpus
November 23rd, 2010, 11:14 AM
I can't believe you guys are still arguing with him. A brick wall would concede defeat before he will.

It's all in good fun. :)

regards,
G.

Blackhole
November 23rd, 2010, 02:25 PM
I don't have a problem with a 9mm dropping someone in one hit. I just don't like how they seem to die immediately. I know it's done this way on screen for a number of reasons, it just feels kinda corny to me. I'm not saying they would be able to shoot back, especially since they were surprised (therefore they'd have no adrenaline in their system to lessen the initial shock of being struck). I'm just saying that you usually don't lose consciousness before you hit the floor barring a headshot or spinal cord injury.

But seeing people all torn up and barely clinging to life ain't all that fun to watch anyway so no biggie. It's scary what tenacity the human body has sometimes.

From prior page:

"A .38 caliber and .45 caliber are large caliber bullets. They travel at a low velocity, which makes them relatively easy to stop. If they hit someone in the chest it's like hitting them with a baseball bat..."

"On the other hand, any of these calibers can cause instant clinical death and spontaneous drop if they sever a large vessel (such as an aorta, for example) or hit the heart or brain. In the case of major vessels or the heart, this is relative to a massive drop in blood pressure. In reality the person falls unconscious due to the drop in blood pressure or shock and death follows in only a few seconds or minutes, giving the appearance that he dropped dead?."

His conclusion was:

"In my personal experience, if you shoot a man in the chest he will go into shock and fall down no matter what you shoot him with. If you shoot him with something big enough, he will fall down and die."

The Mighty 6 platoon
November 23rd, 2010, 03:54 PM
I don't have a problem with a 9mm dropping someone in one hit. I just don't like how they seem to die immediately. I know it's done this way on screen for a number of reasons, it just feels kinda corny to me. I'm not saying they would be able to shoot back, especially since they were surprised (therefore they'd have no adrenaline in their system to lessen the initial shock of being struck). I'm just saying that you usually don't lose consciousness before you hit the floor barring a headshot or spinal cord injury.

But seeing people all torn up and barely clinging to life ain't all that fun to watch anyway so no biggie. It's scary what tenacity the human body has sometimes.
They didn't die immediately. Hence the scene in the infirmary as TJ and chums struggle to cope with the wounded. In fact only one person Simeon shot died at all, sometime after being shot.