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Stormtrooper
November 17th, 2010, 05:56 AM
Anyone else enjoying what is going on with Chloe? Personally, I wouldn't mind if she became the ship's pilot/navigator. I lol'd at her little Data moment on the bridge :D

Girlbot
November 17th, 2010, 05:58 AM
Finally she's a bit useful

icsteffi
November 17th, 2010, 05:59 AM
I would love it if it weren't completely fake. I would rather her have been an Eli by herself, and not with alien help :D And, her little Data moment on the bridge was more frightening than funny! We like what she did, but the source of the information can be none other than from the evil blue guys. Maybe they aren't still controlling her, and she just got their information and ski-dattled, but it is still frightening. Well,... and exciting, because I'm definitely fine with seeing more of them.

Sami_
November 17th, 2010, 06:00 AM
The bridge scene seemed kind of weird to me, they sit her down in front of a control panel and when she starts pushing buttons they rush to stop her...why is she even there in the first place if thats their attitude.

Girlbot
November 17th, 2010, 06:01 AM
I think it was the look on her face, she wasn't in control the way she said she was.

JustAnotherVoice
November 17th, 2010, 06:01 AM
Finally she's a bit useful

They heard the fanbase whine, and they gave her something to do (that isn't Scott).

Can't say that I'm a fan of aliens reprogramming her, but she gets as much screentime as Volker, Park and Brody, so she may as well join them in the squint squad.

Rylor
November 17th, 2010, 06:20 AM
Anyone else enjoying what is going on with Chloe? Personally, I wouldn't mind if she became the ship's pilot/navigator. I lol'd at her little Data moment on the bridge :D

I am. It is an interesting storyline, and I wonder what will happen to Chloe. At the moment, she seems to have more understanding (although more in a subconcious way) of Destiny's systems / programming than Rush or Eli. After all, she was able to plot a new course, something Rush has been unable to do despite having much more time.

Pharaoh Atem
November 17th, 2010, 07:06 AM
Ginn was math girl. Chole is mrs smurf

jelgate
November 17th, 2010, 08:22 AM
Actually the Chloe alien arc is getting a little drawn out. I would like something to finally happen

Commander Zelix
November 17th, 2010, 08:41 AM
Actually the Chloe alien arc is getting a little drawn out. I would like something to finally happen
Is there any plots in SGU which are not heavily drawn out. TJ baby plot, Telford on the gate seeder ship, Chloe's transformation, Destiny's AI/sentience, Franklin avatar like behavior, the new "game changing" mission (which was only paid lip service in this episode), the LA integration into the Destiny ship, etc etc.

As I said in the other thread, it would be a bit better if the blue aliens were a ever present threat and concern like the Wraith or Goauld. So her transformation arc could be interlinked with the overarching arc and the blue aliens enemy treats. But as I said, I make myself believe that it is and we don't know where the writers are going with this.

Yes, as everything on that show, better and faster pacing would be better.

jelgate
November 17th, 2010, 08:45 AM
Is there any plots in SGU which are not heavily drawn out. TJ baby plot, Telford on the gate seeder ship, Chloe's transformation, Destiny's AI/sentience, Franklin avatar like behavior, the new "game changing" mission (which was only paid lip service in this episode), the LA integration into the Destiny ship, etc etc.

As I said in the other thread, it would be a bit better if the blue aliens were a ever present threat and concern like the Wraith or Goauld. So her transformation arc could be interlinked with the overarching arc and the blue aliens enemy treats. But as I said, I make myself believe that it is and we don't know where the writers are going with this.

Yes, as everything on that show, better and faster pacing would be better.
Yes. Its one thing to have new developments in an arc. Its another just to continue with same problem with no new development of Chloe changing into something

Kaiphantom
November 17th, 2010, 09:54 AM
Honestly, I'm a bit conflicted. Yeah, she's getting useful. But it took aliens doing something to her to achieve that. It wasn't anything she had accomplished on her own. Even then, Rush had to goad her into making use of it.

However, putting her on the bridge was just plain stupid.

Galileo_Galilee
November 17th, 2010, 11:31 AM
I want her to be useful. I'd really really really really like her to be useful.

But I'm wary of them turning her into a Lana Lang.

In short:


Everyone loves her, it's depicted as wrong for others to act questionably when she is forgiven for every bad choice, Clark keeps loving her even after she breaks his heart about a dozen times, she learns martial arts and how to handle guns amazingly quickly, and then they give her superpowers. She is given a biological suit, which mimics Kryptonian abilities, meaning she is as powerful as Clark. But then to top it all off, in order to save the day, she absorbs a massive amount of Kryptonite from a bomb (and as a result, her body now radiates the stuff itself) and then departs from the show. Effectively, this means that Lana Lang is now the one person on the planet, who could slaughter Clark (aka "pre-Superman") with ease if the circumstances made it so.


From:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodModeSue

Kaiphantom
November 17th, 2010, 11:48 AM
Yeah, but the whole Lana thing was because a certain writer absolutely loved Lana, and kept wanting to bring her back and make her into this great thing that everyone would love. It didn't work, as everyone else got tired with her GodModeSue antics.

I don't get the sense that the writers are deliberately making her this way. Instead, it feels more like the actor isn't asking for enough for her character. Much like Chloe, the actor needs to step up and say, "Hey, I think my character should be shown standing up and doing more on the ship" instead of continually being a helpless damsel in distress. It's pretty much insulting to the character and women in general.

Replicator Todd
November 17th, 2010, 11:51 AM
I liked Chloe from the beginning, but I think I like Super Chloe even more!

Coronach
November 17th, 2010, 12:04 PM
I don't get the sense that the writers are deliberately making her this way. Instead, it feels more like the actor isn't asking for enough for her character. Much like Chloe, the actor needs to step up and say, "Hey, I think my character should be shown standing up and doing more on the ship" instead of continually being a helpless damsel in distress. It's pretty much insulting to the character and women in general.

And how do you know Elyse hasn't done this? Or how do you know the writers would even bother, given the amount of other actors who probably also want more character involvement?

It seems extremely strange that you've just jumped to this conclusion about the actress herself with zero evidence. For a while now I've understood where your grievance with Chloe lies, but this is a whole new level...one which I think is insulting to the actress, and one which I certainly don't understand. :(

Additionally, this thread once again screams "Chloe just cannot win" to me. People wanted her to be useful, but then they don't like it that her usefulness comes in the form of alien experimentation? Goalpost moving, much? *sigh*

Galileo_Galilee
November 17th, 2010, 12:14 PM
No, it's when you have an ensemble cast, one character really and truly shouldn't overshadow them all.

That's one reason why people get so annoyed with Characters like Wesley from TNG or Lana Lang from Smallville.

With this alien modification thing, some people are just wary of her becoming an overpowered character. And if she can do all this then why have the other characters on the show at all?

Chloe is just the Damsel in distress and so far doesn't really serve to fill in a niche to complement the ensemble/team. She isn't even the voice of morality for the team. She's not even plucky comedy relief. She's just there to cause trouble.

She's a nice person, and an attractive girl, but in terms of the show's metaplot, even if there is one, she has no real purpose to her character being there.

When a character's part of a team, their skills should fill a niche and complement the other members. Not overshadow them.

And right now that's the danger we seem to face that Chloe might, in the long term, be turned into a GodModeSue.

In an ensemble/team show, you should have some sort of balance and all members should be able to contribute something.

Kaiphantom
November 17th, 2010, 12:17 PM
And how do you know Elyse hasn't done this? Or how do you know the writers would even bother, given the amount of other actors who probably also want more character involvement?

It seems extremely strange that you've just jumped to this conclusion about the actress herself with zero evidence. For a while now I've understood where your grievance with Chloe lies, but this is a whole new level...one which I think is insulting to the actress, and one which I certainly don't understand. :(

Additionally, this thread once again screams "Chloe just cannot win" to me. People wanted her to be useful, but then they don't like it that her usefulness comes in the form of alien experimentation? Goalpost moving, much? *sigh*

You would be reading things into my statement that I didn't say, then. I only said "I get the sense" rather than "This is the way it is and here's all the proof." I didn't state it as a fact, when you're treating it like I did.

And what makes me feel this way? Nothing too concrete, really. Just the things the actress says in interviews, how she behaves, which give me a feeling that she is just letting the writers determine her character, rather than adapting to it and deciding on her own, "Hey, I actually think Chloe would do this instead." Some actors do this, and some don't. It's not a good or a bad thing, so much as a difference of opinion.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I wanted to see her usefulness come from the character itself; her thoughts, dreams, hopes, motivations, etc. I have given her some props for being useful in deciding to do those equations (with some prodding from Rush). But this kinda feels like they just needed a body that wasn't otherwise being used, in order to fit the "turning into an alien" plot on.

It would be as if they removed the brain of one character and plugged in a computer brain instead, and now the person was really useful... except it really wasn't the person itself, just the computer brain doing all the work.

In short, chill. We can all state our opinions here without people like you jumping down the throat of someone who thinks differently than you do. I think you're better than that.

Coronach
November 17th, 2010, 12:40 PM
You would be reading things into my statement that I didn't say, then. I only said "I get the sense" rather than "This is the way it is and here's all the proof." I didn't state it as a fact, when you're treating it like I did.

Great! Glad to see you wouldn't state something like that as fact, though I still am baffled as to why this would be a decently remote possibility to you, though you do admit that it's nothing concrete. That said, we've disagreed on enough stuff in the past that perhaps it shouldn't be surprising.



I can't speak for everyone else, but I wanted to see her usefulness come from the character itself; her thoughts, dreams, hopes, motivations, etc. I have given her some props for being useful in deciding to do those equations (with some prodding from Rush). But this kinda feels like they just needed a body that wasn't otherwise being used, in order to fit the "turning into an alien" plot on.

It would be as if they removed the brain of one character and plugged in a computer brain instead, and now the person was really useful... except it really wasn't the person itself, just the computer brain doing all the work.

I'd agree with you if her personality was completely different from this (i.e. imagine something similar to the stone technology). However, Chloe made it very clear in this last episode that she's starting to feel in control of what is happening to her brain. Sure, this may not be the case (i.e. the blank stare when she was at the controls), or perhaps she has yet to harness it fully. Perhaps more time will show us that these changes are not actually changing Chloe's personality so much as they're changing a given skill set.


In short, chill. We can all state our opinions here without people like you jumping down the throat of someone who thinks differently than you do. I think you're better than that.

Yikes! Chill? People like me? Whatever way you interpreted my post, I assure you it wasn't meant as an attack. Reading my post once more, I don't really see me jumping down your throat. Sorry if it came across that way. :S

aretood2
November 17th, 2010, 12:59 PM
Ginn was math girl. Chole is mrs smurf
Why did she have to die? :(

Actually the Chloe alien arc is getting a little drawn out. I would like something to finally happen
I do hope something happens in the next episode or two. Perhaps she gets her hands on the bridge again and causes all sorts of problems that lead them to some sort of discovery.

Girlbot
November 17th, 2010, 01:03 PM
It all seemed a bit contrived writing to me. suddenly at the exact moment they need the help.
"here she comes to save the day, Mighty Mouse is on her way"
But I suppose it had to be written that way.

MattSilver 3k
November 17th, 2010, 01:07 PM
It all seemed a bit contrived writing to me. suddenly at the exact moment they need the help.
"here she comes to save the day, Mighty Mouse is on her way"
But I suppose it had to be written that way.

No less contrived than on some other things I've seen on Stargate. Same writers, I suppose, so it's a given. But I can safely call Chloe somewhat developed in her way - alien presence in her head, slowly gaining higher intelligence in mathematics and the like because of it, and then just using that knowledge. But I think the storyline, drawn out of no, will be ended by episode eleven or so. Let's just hope it's not too Deus Ex-y.

aretood2
November 17th, 2010, 01:08 PM
They did need to do something to show that she has no control over her...condition. But yeah, it seemed like too much of a good thing. But Stargate is known for this...bad habits die hard.

blackluster
November 17th, 2010, 01:13 PM
Well, I think the point about her purpose on the show is well made, that being that it is a bit fuzzy at the moment. At first glance, one would say that her purpose was to bring an alternative, young, non-technically minded viewpoint to the problems on the ship, but as the stories currently pan out, she doesn't get much opportunity to do that. The one time that stands out where her character was "well written" was Young's trial where she brought her integrity to bear on the situation. Unfortunately, this play on alien dna has somewhat served to isolate her from the crew which makes the moments where she does show up kind of like a rabbit out of the hat. Perhaps the writers would consider having her later become (post-alien infection) a close assistant to Wray, letting her opinions and thoughts have a more tangible effect on the story through Wray who is a woman with a well weighted input to the decision making process.

Kaiphantom
November 17th, 2010, 02:15 PM
I'd agree with you if her personality was completely different from this (i.e. imagine something similar to the stone technology). However, Chloe made it very clear in this last episode that she's starting to feel in control of what is happening to her brain. Sure, this may not be the case (i.e. the blank stare when she was at the controls), or perhaps she has yet to harness it fully. Perhaps more time will show us that these changes are not actually changing Chloe's personality so much as they're changing a given skill set.

With the way it's being done, it doesn't bother me 100%; it's just that I wanted her to assume a different role under her own skills. Something that would make me say, "Yeah, she's a member of the team and she helps complete them!" Right now, she's just.... there. As someone said earlier, she might have been pretty good as a morality pet (Ra knows this crew could use one, heh) or a mediator of disputes or something. Just my own feelings, though. I really hope they don't hang her character on "alien super-Chloe." At least Carter had other skills to get by on.

But as you noted, it's hard to tell how much there is actually Chloe, or whether it's whatever alien influence she's under.

Anyway, I can accept you didn't mean to sound like you were jumping down a throat. I apologize for interpreting it that way and saying as much, if it wasn't your intent.

Nth Chevron
November 17th, 2010, 04:20 PM
I doubt Chloe could fill any type of position other than what she holds now, from what we've seen, she isnt strong willed enough to stand up for morality on the ship, even Wray couldnt do that completely and Wray would wipe the floor with Chloe in a pissing match.

When she gets nervous, she drinks, so putting her on the spot wont do much good.

She's just the young college girl look-a-like whose there to rope younger guys in, they only gave her the alien transformation because she was doing jack ****, aside from jacking Scott and being Eli's kryptonite.

I've been intrigued by the actual arc Chloe is on though, and i would mind finding out what will happen by its end.

N.C

Eternal Density
November 17th, 2010, 05:09 PM
They heard the fanbase whine, and they gave her something to do (that isn't Scott).I'm sure they planned this all along.

Replicator Todd
November 17th, 2010, 08:41 PM
That's one reason why people get so annoyed with Characters like Wesley from TNG or Lana Lang from Smallville.


Huh, well I guess I was one of the few who enjoyed Wesley and Lana Lang. Chloe has become useful in more ways she was before, many people complained she was a useless character. I don't see how people can still think that now.

Pharaoh Atem
November 17th, 2010, 09:58 PM
Actually the Chloe alien arc is getting a little drawn out. I would like something to finally happen

def i liked her as the female daniel jackson last season. smurf chloe is boring

Lahela
November 17th, 2010, 11:03 PM
Chloe was established from the beginning as a "basically pointless on the ship fish out of water" so something had to happen and, personally, I'm really enjoying that something. A significant difference to SG1's Bane and SGA's Conversion is that it was a deliberate act by the blueberries, so her metamorphosis takes on a much more sinister aspect. It's not just that she can't help herself, but nobody knows whether, at any given time, she's helping the aliens. It's creepy, in a good way. :)

I like the way it's being dealt with - the A plot action takes up most of the screen time, the B plot does its thing, but there, lurking in the background, is this thing continuing to develop. It would feel slow if they focussed on it, but they don't so I'm content to have it play out in snippets here and there.

pipi
November 18th, 2010, 12:23 AM
She's good at pushing buttons. :)

blade7gr
November 18th, 2010, 12:29 AM
im starting to think that chloe will eventually take control of her own mind in the end and help them

Dark Angel
November 18th, 2010, 02:07 AM
From what I've gathered so far I think Cloe will play a vital part when the blue guy's finaly catch up with desteny. I don't know for shure if the stuff she is writing on the wall is Ancient but I think it's not. So when they catch up she will be the only one on the ship who can read what the blue guy's are saying, maybe she can even understand their spoken language. (Would be kind of funny to actually hear her speak the alien language :-) ) Or the blues start shooting right away and there is no point in understading them who knows.

So I remain hopefull that this story ark will unfold in the near future.

garhkal
November 18th, 2010, 04:14 AM
I think it was the look on her face, she wasn't in control the way she said she was.

Agreed. The fact she didn't even acknowledge anyone calling her, and continued pushing buttons.. showed she was not in control. I was glad eli called her on it.


However, Chloe made it very clear in this last episode that she's starting to feel in control of what is happening to her brain. Sure, this may not be the case (i.e. the blank stare when she was at the controls), or perhaps she has yet to harness it fully. Perhaps more time will show us that these changes are not actually changing Chloe's personality so much as they're changing a given skill set.

With how easily she slipped into the fuge state and not remember what she did, i would seriously doubt she is in control in any fashion.


def i liked her as the female daniel jackson last season. smurf chloe is boring

I did like her attempt to imitate Dr Jackson..

VampyreWraith
November 18th, 2010, 06:15 AM
One of the problems I think with Chloe is that she doesn't really have another character thats in her peer group to play off of that isn't intrested in her romantically. Keeping Ginn around could have helped with that. Ginn and Chloe could have become friends, they had the fact that they were both kind of outsiders in common and maybe they could have worked together.
My favorite Chloe scene was the one in Faith when she and TJ were talking on the planet. She needs more scenes like that, imo, to help develop her a bit. I think shes a good support person and a good friend, and I like her scenes with Eli except for the underlying romantic tension coming from Eli crushing on her. I didn't like Eli snapping at her in Malice but I understand that he was upset over Ginn. I think Chloe does have potential but she needs to be developed more but I'm not really sure if giving her alien powers is a good way to do it; I'm not particularly fond of this storyline so far, but we'll see.

Sami_
November 18th, 2010, 07:12 AM
One of the problems I think with Chloe is that she doesn't really have another character thats in her peer group to play off of that isn't intrested in her romantically. Keeping Ginn around could have helped with that. Ginn and Chloe could have become friends, they had the fact that they were both kind of outsiders in common and maybe they could have worked together.

Good observation, I think you're right.

Most of the SGU audience is male, I don't think Chloe plays well to that group simply because the romance doesn't which covers most of the scenes Chloe is involved in on the show.

Its like "oh shes kissing/shagging/flirting with Scott again - I don't care about this".

Rylor
November 18th, 2010, 07:48 AM
One of the problems I think with Chloe is that she doesn't really have another character thats in her peer group to play off of that isn't intrested in her romantically. Keeping Ginn around could have helped with that. Ginn and Chloe could have become friends, they had the fact that they were both kind of outsiders in common and maybe they could have worked together.
My favorite Chloe scene was the one in Faith when she and TJ were talking on the planet. She needs more scenes like that, imo, to help develop her a bit. I think shes a good support person and a good friend, and I like her scenes with Eli except for the underlying romantic tension coming from Eli crushing on her. I didn't like Eli snapping at her in Malice but I understand that he was upset over Ginn. I think Chloe does have potential but she needs to be developed more but I'm not really sure if giving her alien powers is a good way to do it; I'm not particularly fond of this storyline so far, but we'll see.

Yeah, that would have been nice. I always hoped that Chloe and TJ would develop a friendship. Moments like in "Awakening", when Chloe offered TJ to talk about her baby, or in "Subversion", when Chloe comforted a crying TJ seemed perfect for this, but it hasn't happened yet. It would be interesting to see Chloe create more relationships among the crew.

cnnrstrav
November 18th, 2010, 10:50 AM
Gosh you guys tell some incredibly funny Anti-Chloe jokes.

aretood2
November 18th, 2010, 12:14 PM
Gosh you guys tell some incredibly funny Anti-Chloe jokes.

Why did the Chloe cross the road? :P

Replicator Todd
November 18th, 2010, 03:28 PM
def i liked her as the female daniel jackson last season. smurf chloe is boring

OH I love it! A female smurf Daniel Jackson Chloe would be ever cooler though! :D

Kaiphantom
November 18th, 2010, 03:34 PM
Why did the Chloe cross the road? :P

Because it's what passes for character development on SGU? :P

erotavlas
November 18th, 2010, 07:51 PM
Why did the Chloe cross the road? :P

To get to the other side....................of the universe :p

JustAnotherVoice
November 18th, 2010, 08:55 PM
Yeah, that would have been nice. I always hoped that Chloe and TJ would develop a friendship. Moments like in "Awakening", when Chloe offered TJ to talk about her baby, or in "Subversion", when Chloe comforted a crying TJ seemed perfect for this, but it hasn't happened yet. It would be interesting to see Chloe create more relationships among the crew.

I admire the wishful thinking :p

But this is Stargate and the writers either don't know how to write female characters, or don't care enough about them to give them any meaningful airtime. It took them a good few seasons to "find" Sam, and the less said about the SGA women, the better.

I remember an interview with the SGU female cast, with them praising the "strong, independent women" (or words to that effect), and look where they've ended up. Sure, there's an argument for Wray fitting the bill, especially now that she's not trying to take control for the IOA, but TJ and Chloe have been nothing (IMO) but the butt of the "women in SG" joke.

/rant

smart
November 19th, 2010, 08:56 PM
. No , I do not think so. Ultimately she is loosing her personality and her consciousness is being altered. Although she is recently able to function at as a useful individual, despite her mutation , we do know that she is not always aware of what she was doing and as her condition progresses, the aliens may gain further control of mind. This possibility leaves the ship susceptible to attack.

VampyreWraith
November 20th, 2010, 12:05 AM
I kinda like the idea of Chloe completely under alien control going all evil and wreaking havoc on Destiny.

garhkal
November 20th, 2010, 03:57 AM
Agreed. How many times in SGA or SG1 was someone taken over by aliens, only to be restored either that ep or 2 later..

Save Chloe
November 21st, 2010, 01:14 PM
I lol'd at her little Data moment on the bridge :D

That scene was hilarious! She pushes one button, then another, then she starts typing like a freakin' secretary..."SSSTOP HER!!!" LMAO!!!

Super Carl
November 21st, 2010, 06:10 PM
That scene was hilarious! She pushes one button, then another, then she starts typing like a freakin' secretary..."SSSTOP HER!!!" LMAO!!!

:lol:
A secretary, she could have been Young's secretary. That would have actually worked. It would have made her useful until she started going blue. But either way I'm content with the direction Chloe is going.

Gollumpus
November 21st, 2010, 06:54 PM
It all seemed a bit contrived writing to me. suddenly at the exact moment they need the help.
"here she comes to save the day, Mighty Mouse is on her way"
But I suppose it had to be written that way.

I thought using Chloe was an appropriate risk on Young's part, and one which had been set up fairly well by the writers.

We have been shown that her math skills have been developing. We have also seen that there is some sort of change going on with her person, both physically and mentally, and as such she has been "quarantined". If she had shown up without us seeing these developments (ie. she hadn't been locked up and she just walked on to the bridge and started to push buttons), then that would have been a bit too DeM.

Young wouldn't place her on the bridge unless it was a very critical situation, in this case to save lives on the planet and potentially more lives back on Earth. What would have been interesting is if she HADN'T solved the problem and was doing something else...

regards,
G.

Gollumpus
November 21st, 2010, 06:59 PM
Why did the Chloe cross the road? :P

To check Demeter on her parking spot?

regards,
G.

VJC
November 27th, 2010, 01:56 PM
A significant difference to SG1's Bane and SGA's Conversion is that it was a deliberate act by the blueberries, so her metamorphosis takes on a much more sinister aspect. It's not just that she can't help herself, but nobody knows whether, at any given time, she's helping the aliens. It's creepy, in a good way. :)

I like the way it's being dealt with - the A plot action takes up most of the screen time, the B plot does its thing, but there, lurking in the background, is this thing continuing to develop. It would feel slow if they focussed on it, but they don't so I'm content to have it play out in snippets here and there.
This, this 100x this - alien Chole is scary and here new "super powers" should be labelled 'for use as last resort only', who knows what she's actually doing?




Most of the SGU audience is male, I don't think Chloe plays well to that group simply because the romance doesn't which covers most of the scenes Chloe is involved in on the show.

Its like "oh shes kissing/shagging/flirting with Scott again - I don't care about this".
It might be interesting to note that SGU is the first of the franchise that my mum likes, my dad has problems coping with story arcs and character development & stopped watching after the first couple of eps. I think that a lot of people here are towards his end of the spectrum. rather than my mum's.




But this is Stargate and the writers either don't know how to write female characters, or don't care enough about them to give them any meaningful airtime. It took them a good few seasons to "find" Sam, and the less said about the SGA women, the better.

/rant
The only female character they did well was Wier, then they killed her. IMO SGA would have been a lot better with her staying around longer.