PDA

View Full Version : For King & Country (308)



GateWorld
November 6th, 2010, 05:58 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/sanctuary/s3/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/3081.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">SANCTUARY SEASON THREE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/sanctuary/s3/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">FOR KING & COUNTRY</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 308</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
Helen brings her old "friend" Adam Worth back to the Sanctuary to try and heal him, revealing to Will his place in the history of the Five. Meanwhile, Helen goes in search of Druitt, and Will makes a disturbing discovery about his mentor.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/sanctuary/s3/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Galileo_Galilee
December 3rd, 2010, 08:03 PM
Now this was definitely one of the better episodes.

But I wonder how many more times Magnus is going to be removed from her position before the end of the season.

So which way will Will swing? For her or against her? Was Tesla being entirely selfish? Or was he simply trying to be cautious?

And what lies below the Sanctuary?

And does Adam really know the location of that city?

And is Adam fully responsible for Magnus' condition?

MidwifeOnBoard
December 3rd, 2010, 08:14 PM
I need to watch this again in the morning before I can fully comment, but there were so many moments I loved.

I don't ship anyone in this series, but the moment when Magnus wrapped herself in John's arms and went to sleep kinda made me feel happy-sad and squishy. :)

I also definitely got a Magnus-Watson-Druitt love triangle vibe during that scene on the Thames in Edwardian times.

My favorite line of the night was spoken by Adam: "Who said you could work with men? You're a child." Brilliant. It's actually how I feel about Will most of the time, though I thought RD did an impressive job this week.

Looking forward to reading everyone else's opinion. And rewatching!

Emengee
December 3rd, 2010, 08:17 PM
MAD SQUEE OF MAGNETT EPICNESS!

The whole crawling into his arms and wrapping them around her to sleep just screamed 'I still love you, even if you broke my heart'. I have to agree on the squishyness feeling upon seeing her do that. And I'm pretty sure he was stroking her side when she woke up... I will totally scrutinize that scene again when I download it.

Proud Magnett shipper here!

I am soooo bowing down to the awesomeness that is team MAD (and maybe Chris, because hey, I adore him!)

This whole episode was great! It was wicked awesome to see James again! I hope we get to see more of him in the future... well, in the past. Gotta love flash backs!

Personal opinion: I think Adam is a little bit in love with Helen and that's why he blamed her for everthing. He needed an excuse to hate her for both refusing to let him into the five (6) and for his daughters death, even though she did everything she could to save her.

It's obvious because of the preview that Will chooses to let Adam look at the map. I just hope Helen can forgive him when they find Ashley in the city. Syfy deaths and all that jazz. (Or possibly wishful thinking, but hey, I can dream until the conclusion can't I?)

YAY!

I LOVE this show!

Rocky89
December 3rd, 2010, 08:39 PM
Wow, quite an episode. :) Personally, I liked Breach a lot more, but this one had a lot more facts and back story, and I think it was a very good continuation from Breach. Breach had a lot of action, and FKaC had a lot of info, so I think it works well. :)

It started off fast, with Helen wanting to save his life, and I liked how Tesla established Adam as Jekyll and Hyde. I find it admirable that Helen wants to save him, considering all he did, especially after this episode, he's even crazier than I thought :p, I thought it was nice of Will wanting to assist Helen in the operation I liked Helen's comment to Will about her being 159, it made me grin. :p One thing I wanted to see was after Will told Helen "she got the snot kicked out of her" I wanted her to tell him "yeah, well I still won." I like Helen and the teams interactions with Adam, and how he called Will that name, I don't know what it was. I liked Will going to him trying to get answers, and near the end when he was mad for doing this to Helen. Oh, and I loved Tesla and Henry and saying "cool together. :p

We sure learned quite a bit about Helen and the Five, and how they came to be, I was a little surprised that they took the job to track down Adam, but if they didn't many people would have died because of his plan to release that stuff in the air or something. Even though Helen and Will had a small argument, I still found it intense, and I hope they never argue again. :) I loved Helen's move on getting the gun, it was like Smallville stuff right there. :D One moment that I enjoyed seeing was Helen and John, and how she laid down with him. :)

I found the look about at their pasts very cool, and Amanda was right, it didn't feel like Syfy, it kinda felt like Murdoch Mysteries or another show like that. :) I think we learned a lot about them in this episode, how they came to be, and it answered a lot of questions from last week. :) Finding out Helen is sick, and the ending was shocking, and I can't wait until next week to find out what happens. :D Again, I'll talk more in my replies. :)

Btw, where was Kate? :p

suse
December 3rd, 2010, 08:49 PM
Maybe Kate was on a mission. Biggie wasn't there either.

Too sleepy to review. later.

llp
December 3rd, 2010, 08:52 PM
I need to watch this again in the morning before I can fully comment, but there were so many moments I loved.

I don't ship anyone in this series, but the moment when Magnus wrapped herself in John's arms and went to sleep kinda made me feel happy-sad and squishy. :)

I also definitely got a Magnus-Watson-Druitt love triangle vibe during that scene on the Thames in Edwardian times.

My favorite line of the night was spoken by Adam: "Who said you could work with men? You're a child." Brilliant. It's actually how I feel about Will most of the time, though I thought RD did an impressive job this week.

Looking forward to reading everyone else's opinion. And rewatching!

Hey MoB - it is so cool I can talk to someone about this. Unfair the UK has to wait....now with that said:

I agree, it was a real heart pounder to see Helen wrap Johns arms around her as she quietly allowed them both to rest. For just a short moment it was like it was in the beginning for Helen. Really super.

As for the "triangle" - I think that all the men had a thing for Helen. But perhaps next to John, Watson also loved her (with purity of heart, of course)!

I also loved how you thought one story was true (through the eyes of Adam) only to find out the real truth - like trying to save Adam's daughter or how he was shot and died. See, Helen couldn't kill him....he jumped!

Also Adam was a very bad man - going to poison the British population because he can.... Shame on him. And now I see where the title comes in and why they have the support of the British government now! Very interesting!
The last two episodes were WOWS. That's all I can say on it! I hope the series goes on for many, many for seasons!

Skydiver
December 3rd, 2010, 08:54 PM
Adam was going to poison the city's water. There was cyanide in the machine.
I also think Adam killed his own daughter to get the source blood. Or hyde did at least.

Rocky89
December 3rd, 2010, 09:05 PM
Now this was definitely one of the better episodes.

But I wonder how many more times Magnus is going to be removed from her position before the end of the season.

So which way will Will swing? For her or against her? Was Tesla being entirely selfish? Or was he simply trying to be cautious?

And what lies below the Sanctuary?

And does Adam really know the location of that city?

And is Adam fully responsible for Magnus' condition?

Breach is still my fave. :D

It wasn't said she would lose her position, just that she's sick, and Will being the 2IC should take over for now. Personally, I hope he doesn't, and still let Helen run things.

I don't know, dirt? :p

Maybe he does, I mean if he expected to kill Helen in Breach by using the rift technology, he would have to have had a cure for himself afterwards.

I believe he is, it was made clear going through the rift could kill you, and since he went through so many times, he should die faster than Helen.


MAD SQUEE OF MAGNETT EPICNESS!

Hehe, someone liked it. :p


The whole crawling into his arms and wrapping them around her to sleep just screamed 'I still love you, even if you broke my heart'. I have to agree on the squishyness feeling upon seeing her do that. And I'm pretty sure he was stroking her side when she woke up... I will totally scrutinize that scene again when I download it.

wow, very good interpretation of that scene. :) I thought it was sweet of her to lay down next to him, and I'm glad he's still in her heart. :)


Proud Magnett shipper here!

What? :p


I am soooo bowing down to the awesomeness that is team MAD (and maybe Chris, because hey, I adore him!)

This whole episode was great! It was wicked awesome to see James again! I hope we get to see more of him in the future... well, in the past. Gotta love flash backs!

Go Sanctuary. ;)


Personal opinion: I think Adam is a little bit in love with Helen and that's why he blamed her for everything. He needed an excuse to hate her for both refusing to let him into the five (6) and for his daughters death, even though she did everything she could to save her.

When a man loves a woman, he doesn't trap her in a building, beat her, try to kill her, and poison her. :p Maybe Adam does have something for Helen, but I don't think his dark side does. :p

At least Helen and Watson did try to save his daughter. :)

AresLover452
December 3rd, 2010, 09:16 PM
MAD SQUEE OF MAGNETT EPICNESS!

The whole crawling into his arms and wrapping them around her to sleep just screamed 'I still love you, even if you broke my heart'. I have to agree on the squishyness feeling upon seeing her do that. And I'm pretty sure he was stroking her side when she woke up... I will totally scrutinize that scene again when I download it.

Proud Magnett shipper here!

YAY!

I LOVE this show!


SWEET SHIPPER NIRVANA!!!!!

*Stands with Em* Proud Magnett supporter.

I loved the entire episode. Gonna have to watch it again before I can make a full review...w ell ok... not true. My brain is still reeling from Helen once again being back in John's ARMS!! that was EPIC and heartwarming. It showed that she still deeply loves him! He ruined her life and she can still feel great love for him!! It was awesome!!

DAMN.... THIS EPISODE WAS FRAKKING SWEET!!

Makes ke love this show all the more!!

mandogater
December 3rd, 2010, 09:23 PM
I really loved all the back story on the Five!! It also was really great to see Peter Wingfield back in action.
Helen being sick could be what forces Will's hand into showing Adam the map. Will wasn't very happy with Adam when he confronted him towards the end. I could almost see him telling Adam if he lets Helen die, he would lock him in a room with John.

Forgot to mention, It was interesting to learn the crown pretty much blackmailed them into going after Adam.

LadyGalaxyJ
December 3rd, 2010, 09:29 PM
So much things going in my head right now, I'm going to try to make sense of it all. :) Thoughts won't be in order, be warned. ;P

First, this episode was awesome. My personnal favourite so far, really close to Trail of Blood and Breach.

On Will saying (paraphrasing, of course), "This entire thing was built on the blood of a dead man."
If you've listened to the episode's promo, I was led to believe that the 'thing' Will was talking about what the city. (I hope I wasn't the only one?) I must admit, I was surprised and hadn't really made the link myself before he actually blurted it out in front of Magnus. Btw, I though this entire exchange was one of the high points of the episode. It was believable and true. I liked Will remembering Helen about the "no secrets" clause of his 'contract'.
And it answers one of the Tapping Tuesday question. AT was asked where the fundings for the Sanctuary network came from. Her answer was something along the lines of 'stay tuned.' Well, I guess we just found out.

Talk about unethical decisions.

Great idea for a show like this. IMHO. ;)

I really dislike Adam. In a good way, mind you. I like the fact that I don't like him. (If that makes sense. ;P) I liked his interactions with the Sanctuary team, but I guess I would have wanted him to interact more with Tesla or Druitt. Perhaps in future eps?

And you know... :rolleyes: *sighs happily* Helen settling in Druitt's arms was really heartfelt. It was full on emotions and I wouldn't no exactly which ones. I'd say something along love, regret, pain, sadness, anger... Nice mix. ;P
For me, it just felt right and it was simply a beautiful moment to watch. And if not for the ship, take it as a moment where Helen attempts to reconcile with her past. :)

Oh! Another thing I adored about the episode. The alternance between past and present was absolutely enjoyable! It really flowed together and I found out that I really missed seeing those flashbacks. (There weren't that much - or not at all? - in season 2.) I now have an healthy dose to go on for a couple of weeks. :D

One last thing for this post (I'll go and read what others posted after!)... I SO TOTALLY predicted one of the things that happened. I told Idon'trememberwhoexactly that 'for all we know, Druitt asked Tesla not to tell Magnus'. I couldn't have been more right. I thought it was a nice touch to add. 'Cause we haven't Tesla and Druitt as best friends so far, but they did work together in The Five. So, I find it refreshing to see John going to him for help. :)

Told you my thoughts weren't organized. I just threw everything here. ;P

Over all, AHHHH. I LOVED IT! :D:D

Rocky89
December 3rd, 2010, 09:30 PM
Hey MoB - it is so cool I can talk to someone about this. Unfair the UK has to wait....now with that said:

I also loved how you thought one story was true (through the eyes of Adam) only to find out the real truth - like trying to save Adam's daughter or how he was shot and died. See, Helen couldn't kill him....he jumped!

Also Adam was a very bad man - going to poison the British population because he can.... Shame on him. And now I see where the title comes in and why they have the support of the British government now! Very interesting!
The last two episodes were WOWS. That's all I can say on it! I hope the series goes on for many, many for seasons!

Canada gets it first I believe. :p I think this episode showed that Helen did try to save his daughter, and he jumped on his own, and Helen didn't kill him. :) But he did have it coming, he did try to kill many people with cyanide, so he was/is the bad guy, and didn't leave them a choice. I think had Helen and the others not agree to stop Adam, he would have succeed in his plan and killed all those people.

Now the title makes sense to me, and I hope the show goes on. :):D

AresLover452
December 3rd, 2010, 09:33 PM
Forgot to mention, It was interesting to learn the crown pretty much blackmailed them into going after Adam.


That was awesome! I so can;t wait to see this again!

LadyGalaxyJ
December 3rd, 2010, 09:47 PM
Now this was definitely one of the better episodes.

But I wonder how many more times Magnus is going to be removed from her position before the end of the season.
You're right. One has to wonder. I thought to exact same thing. But you know, I guess it's different this time? o.ô

Honnestly, I don't really mind. I just ask myself why Nikola brought that to attention?
Perhaps since he knew Magnus didn't want to show Adam the map, he thought someone else who doesn't want Magnus dead should make the decision.
But knowing Tesla, I'm pretty sure he ALSO has a selfish reason for doing it. (Read here: I believe he wants to help Helen, but maybe help himself also?)


I also definitely got a Magnus-Watson-Druitt love triangle vibe during that scene on the Thames in Edwardian times.
I'd gotten that exact same vibe back in Revelations at the end of season 1. Honnestly, I'm one who believes that every member of The Five had something for Helen. (I guess that makes for a love pentagon. :P) Come on, she was probably the only woman scientist they knew. She was beautiful and didn't quite conform to the standards of society. How could men like Tesla, Watson and Griffin not find her interesting? But, at last, she chose Druitt. ;):)


Btw, where was Kate? :p
I was watching it with my dad. (He hasn't seen season 1 and 2, but watching the third one with me so far.) I stopped to gave him an explanation that included Kate and that's when I realised she wasn't there. I hadn't notice before... :o


Forgot to mention, It was interesting to learn the crown pretty much blackmailed them into going after Adam.
YES! You're absolutely right.
I was kind of shocked, but it really together very well. And I thought it wise that we got to see The Five at different stages. For instance, I've always believe that Helen and John never saw eachother post-Ripper, but I guess I was wrong.

Rocky89
December 3rd, 2010, 10:22 PM
On Will saying (paraphrasing, of course), "This entire thing was built on the blood of a dead man."
If you've listened to the episode's promo, I was led to believe that the 'thing' Will was talking about what the city. (I hope I wasn't the only one?) I must admit, I was surprised and hadn't really made the link myself before he actually blurted it out in front of Magnus. Btw, I though this entire exchange was one of the high points of the episode. It was believable and true. I liked Will remembering Helen about the "no secrets" clause of his 'contract'.

That scene was a little tough to watch, since I don't like it when Helen and Will argue, which doesn't happen much, and I could see Helen was getting upset at what Will was saying. but I do believe when she started coughing, Will was concerned for her, and I think he wanted to apologize to her when she started walking out. I did like how Helen said she like the idea of whipping Tesla. :p


And it answers one of the Tapping Tuesday question. AT was asked where the fundings for the Sanctuary network came from. Her answer was something along the lines of 'stay tuned.' Well, I guess we just found out.

Talk about unethical decisions.

I think the "no secrets" thing was a nice reference to the pilot. I still think Helen and the rest of the Five had reason to track him down, Adam was going to try and kill so many people. Again, had they not agreed to track him down, many people would have been killed.


I really dislike Adam. In a good way, mind you. I like the fact that I don't like him. (If that makes sense. ;P) I liked his interactions with the Sanctuary team, but I guess I would have wanted him to interact more with Tesla or Druitt. Perhaps in future eps?

I'm still waiting for him to redeem himself after the beating he gave Helen, a beating she gave right back to him. ;) I want to see Adam fight John. :p



Honnestly, I don't really mind. I just ask myself why Nikola brought that to attention?
Perhaps since he knew Magnus didn't want to show Adam the map, he thought someone else who doesn't want Magnus dead should make the decision.
But knowing Tesla, I'm pretty sure he ALSO has a selfish reason for doing it. (Read here: I believe he wants to help Helen, but maybe help himself also?)

As long as they have Helen's best interest at heart, I'm OK with it. I don't believe anyone of them would do that to Helen, unless it was for a really good reason, like in this case, to save her life. I just hope we see that next week, with them telling her they only want to save her life. And yeah, NO one wants Helen to die. :(

I mean, if it meant saving Helen's life, would you do what Tesla did? Yeah you. :p


I'd gotten that exact same vibe back in Revelations at the end of season 1. Honnestly, I'm one who believes that every member of The Five had something for Helen. (I guess that makes for a love pentagon. :P) Come on, she was probably the only woman scientist they knew. She was beautiful and didn't quite conform to the standards of society. How could men like Tesla, Watson and Griffin not find her interesting? But, at last, she chose Druitt. ;):)

I thought it was weird of the PM to tell her it was odd she's a scientist because she's a woman, but I'm glad she told him to address her as "Doctor" a bit later. ;)


I was watching it with my dad. (He hasn't seen season 1 and 2, but watching the third one with me so far.) I stopped to gave him an explanation that included Kate and that's when I realised she wasn't there. I hadn't notice before... :o

I didn't notice Kate not being there until like 40 mins into the episode. :o



Forgot to mention, It was interesting to learn the crown pretty much blackmailed them into going after Adam.


YES! You're absolutely right.
I was kind of shocked, but it really together very well. And I thought it wise that we got to see The Five at different stages. For instance, I've always believe that Helen and John never saw each other post-Ripper, but I guess I was wrong.

I saw that they weren't really happy with the job they were forced to do, and I'm glad Helen made it clear that they're not assassins, and they're not. After the saw what Adam was planning to do, they had to stop him, and another thing I liked was that, Helen did not kill Adam like we were made to believe last week, she wanted him to live, but Adam had other plans.

blazingfire
December 3rd, 2010, 10:24 PM
Awesome!!

The only thing I found strange was that Adam just happened to float into one of these caves which lead to Hollow Earth, but he did say that this place was special....

EvenstarSRV
December 3rd, 2010, 10:32 PM
Wow, talk about an info dump. But very cool to get all that backstory on Adam and the Five. I wonder why the Five were so resistant to letting Adam in, because of the oddness Helen mentioned, the twisted experiments, or just that they didn't think they needed anyone else.

It also makes you kinda wonder which version of Imogen's death is real, Adam's or Helen's. Sure we'd like to side with her because she's the hero of the show, but I wonder if the truth isn't somewhere in between. Same with the deal the Five struck with the King, how much was it truly to stop Adam and how much to preserve their work and futures.

It was nice to finally see Griffin (wasn't he the same guy who played that agent in Nightwalkers?), and I loved the bridge scene and Cambodia scenes with Helen and Druitt. The confrontation between Helen and Will was also great, and it'll be interesting how they interact now that he's the boss (though shouldn't Declan be the second in command like in Veritas?). I think Tesla brought up the charter in part to save Helen, but also (like he mentioned to Will), he really wants to find Hollow Earth and its secrets and he's willing to use any means to do so, including working with Adam.

Can't wait for the next few episodes, and finding out what kind of cure there is for Helen and Adam in Hollow Earth.


Maybe Kate was on a mission. Biggie wasn't there either.


Yeah, that was odd. Biggie could have been away on a mission, but it was very odd to see Kate just disappear like that. Though the episode was busy enough with everyone else.

LadyGalaxyJ
December 3rd, 2010, 10:34 PM
That scene was a little tough to watch, since I don't like it when Helen and Will argue, which doesn't happen much, and I could see Helen was getting upset at what Will was saying. but I do believe when she started coughing, Will was concerned for her, and I think he wanted to apologize to her when she started walking out.
Really? Tough to watch? I guess you could. Personally, I LOVE when Helen and Will go head to head. I think it makes his character come out more - and gives him a reason to be at the Sanctuary. He's the SIC, he should be questionning her more often, IMO. :)


I did like how Helen said she like the idea of whipping Tesla. :p
I laughed so much when she said that. XDD Conjured up many mental images in my head that I will keep to myself. :rolleyes::P


I'm still waiting for him to redeem himself after the beating he gave Helen, a beating she gave right back to him. ;) I want to see Adam fight John. :p
I don't know if I want to see him redeem himself. I guess I feel he could become a realy bad guy that you lose track of, get back. You thinks he's dead, oh no! he's not and he comes back for you. I don't know, I just feel like Ian Tracey - and Adam - could take on that role quite well!


I mean, if it meant saving Helen's life, would you do what Tesla did? Yeah you. :p
OF COURSE! That's not even a question! :P
I'm just saying he maybe hopes that whatever abnormals, technology, or else, that resides beneath the surface could also help revamp him (which is what he's been after so far).


I didn't notice Kate not being there until like 40 mins into the episode. :o
Yay... I feel less ashamed.

LadyGalaxyJ
December 3rd, 2010, 10:39 PM
Sorry about the doube post, forgot to quote some things. :)


Wow, quite an episode. :) Personally, I liked Breach a lot more, but this one had a lot more facts and back story, and I think it was a very good continuation from Breach. Breach had a lot of action, and FKaC had a lot of info, so I think it works well. :)
It remembers me of the beginning of the season. Kali III was full of action and Firewall had lots of informations. :)


Yeah, that was odd. Biggie could have been away on a mission, but it was very odd to see Kate just disappear like that. Though the episode was busy enough with everyone else.
That's probably why they didn't include them. We already had many characters to follow. They'll probably be back soon enough. ;):D

Rocky89
December 3rd, 2010, 11:05 PM
It also makes you kinda wonder which version of Imogen's death is real, Adam's or Helen's. Sure we'd like to side with her because she's the hero of the show, but I wonder if the truth isn't somewhere in between. Same with the deal the Five struck with the King, how much was it truly to stop Adam and how much to preserve their work and futures.

I think they're both real. I mean, what if they're cut up portions of the truth, and told by diffrent people. First we saw Helen not want to help the kid because she thought it was too late, then we saw Adam alone with her as she died. Then we saw Helen and Watson trying to save her. What if both these are true, like a story told out of order? Helen may have come back to help her, and when she couldn't it brings us to Adam holding his daughters hand as she dies?

Understand what I mean? :p


I think Tesla brought up the charter in part to save Helen, but also (like he mentioned to Will), he really wants to find Hollow Earth and its secrets and he's willing to use any means to do so, including working with Adam.

I like to believe he also wants to save Helen, and find Hollow Earth at the same time. Oh, Tesla. :p


Really? Tough to watch? I guess you could. Personally, I LOVE when Helen and Will go head to head. I think it makes his character come out more - and gives him a reason to be at the Sanctuary. He's the SIC, he should be questionning her more often, IMO. :)

I don't know, I guess I'm so used to Will always listening to her and what not. I don't mind him questionning her, I just don't want him being disloyal, and I don't think he was. :) Again, after the agurment, I do think he was concrened for her when she was coughing and left and do think he wanted to say sorry to her. :)


I don't know if I want to see him redeem himself. I guess I feel he could become a realy bad guy that you lose track of, get back. You thinks he's dead, oh no! he's not and he comes back for you. I don't know, I just feel like Ian Tracey - and Adam - could take on that role quite well!

I agree with you, sorta. :p I'm actually torn, I really am, I mean, one part of me wants to see him pay for wanting to kill all those people back in the day, and for the beating he gave Helen (mostly that :p) but at the same time, if he can save Helen, that may, *may* redeem him.


OF COURSE! That's not even a question! :P
I'm just saying he maybe hopes that whatever abnormals, technology, or else, that resides beneath the surface could also help revamp him (which is what he's been after so far).

Good, right choice. :p I hope we actually see them tell her they want to save her life next week. :) Wow, I wanted to actually see Helen get her HOH title back this season, and I did, we all did really, and now I'm hoping for something similar all over again. :p


Yay... I feel less ashamed.

40 mins in, I was like "Hey, where's Kate?"

:p

meredithchandler73
December 3rd, 2010, 11:47 PM
I really loved this episode! Some of my random thoughts:
--Right at the beginning Tesla notices Helen is hurt. I don't ship them, but that just struck me - I love that!!!
--I loved how the flashbacks looked! And Helen in the flashbacks - GORGEOUS!
--I know I'm not the only one that figured Helen had not seen Druitt since she shot him. Obviously, this episode contradicts that. From what I understand now, he disappeared/laid low after she shot him. All of The Five were called in to the Prime Minister's office and made a proposition. After that meeting was the scene between Helen and John. She asks him if the killing had stopped and he says something like, "Oh, we're back to lying to each other?" And it seems that Druitt disappeared not long after the incident at the cliff with Adam - where he gave Druitt the means to be able to hide. Druitt says it sustained him for 80 years or so.
--Our first look at Nigel Griffin! (I recognize that actor from a few eps of Battlestar Galactica. He was the chief engineer on the Pegasus.)
--The Telsa-Henry scenes are adorable!
--First look at Adam once he has recovered in the infirmary - Helen did a good job of beating up on him! Well done!
--I liked the Jello reference. (SG1!)
--Adam teasing Will and whimpering, "Please help me, Concubine." Ian Tracey is an awesome actor.
--Helen is in Cambodia. Of course she speaks Cambodian. Love how she handled herself with the people protecting Druitt. Not really sure I liked the vis effect when Helen disarmed the girl though. We don't usually see any is effects with any of Helen's "action moves".
--Really interested in figuring out about Kali and this Avatar Council they mention.
--Of course Helen didn't actually murder Adam's daughter, but of course he wouldn't see it that way.
--The Five talk about Adam being British (in the first flashback), but his nice personality has an Irish accent, I think. Weird. Did the split personality happen after his daughter died? And interesting if his "normal" personality was the mean/evil one and the personality that emerged later was a purer one.
--Awww…Helen and John lying together. I'm getting weepy!!! We have never seen Helen with her guard down like this except with Ashley. Wow.
--Thinking back to the flashbacks - what sort of accent does Tesla have? He doesn't sound like he has that accent all the time.
--Helen: "I like the whipping Tesla idea." Heehee.
--Ha - Nigel was a bank robber. So, I suppose the apple didn't fall far from the tree in Clara's case.
--Helen to Adam in the flashback on the cliff: "You should have listened to me." What exactly did she tell him?
--Druitt has never stopped loving Helen. When told Helen would never stop chasing him he said he hoped that was so.
--I was shocked kind of shocked in last week's episode to think Helen really killed Adam. Her non-lethal shot seemed much more likely.

Now I can't wait for next week's episode!!!

P.S. As much as I'm liking Kate more than I used to, I didn't miss her at all in this episode. I only missed Big Foot in the sense that I would have liked to have seen his interaction with all these other characters. Hmmm...wonder if we'll find out that Kate and Big Foot have been off trying to figure out the death of his priest friend and subsequently the cop. Totally parallel story that doesn't intersect with the main story. JUST AS LONG AS THEY DON'T STOP TELLING THE CURRENT STORY TO DO AN EPISODE SOLELY ON BIG FOOT AND/OR KATE. I'd settle for a b-story of what they are doing as Helen and the rest look for a way to the Hologram City.

RealmOfX
December 4th, 2010, 12:15 AM
Adam was going to poison the city's water. There was cyanide in the machine.
I also think Adam killed his own daughter to get the source blood. Or hyde did at least.

Yeah, that thought crossed my mind too.

Another really, really good episode :D I'm loving Season 3 so far and can't wait for more!

OboeTheres
December 4th, 2010, 12:34 AM
--Thinking back to the flashbacks - what sort of accent does Tesla have? He doesn't sound like he has that accent all the time.


In the flashbacks, Tesla speaks with the Serbian accent he had in real life. In the century or so since the flashbacks took place, he seems to have acquired/perfected the 'mainstream' American accent that he uses in the present.

jasminaGo
December 4th, 2010, 01:22 AM
Really? Tough to watch? I guess you could. Personally, I LOVE when Helen and Will go head to head. I think it makes his character come out more - and gives him a reason to be at the Sanctuary. He's the SIC, he should be questionning her more often, IMO. :)

That's true, as long as it makes sense for him to question her judgment. Like in Eulogy, when he was trying to keep her grounded.
In this ep however it looked more like an argument for the sake of an argument. IMO Will needs to step off his high horse and look at the bigger picture. Adam was a mass killer. He wanted to kill thousands of people and if left alone he would have tried to do it again. The 'perks' the British government promised everyone were just that, perks. If The Five knew just dangerous Adam really was they probably would have acted regardless, at least Helen and James if not the others. It's not like Helen actually killed him, he threw himself off, but it's a testament to her character that she does feel responsible for everything.

Few short points about the ep
- The Five in the past were brilliant scenes. Hope for more in the future.
- Helen/John just broke my heart. After everything he's done, there is still such a bond between the two that's impossible to break.
- The Tesla/ Henry interaction was adorable.
- Kate should go away on missions more often (wish Will had went with her, altho' I understand why he was around. His presence was saved with the male concubine comment :p)
- Like Adam as the bad guy even more then I did in Breach.
- Interesting extended scene between Helen and Adam from last week. I wonder how much more we're still missing

dee
December 4th, 2010, 01:26 AM
Don't fill so bad, I got to watch only the first 10 minutes of it before I had to go to work so I'll also have to wait for morning. Then it will be another 2/3 days before I can get to a computor. thank God for recorders.

dee
December 4th, 2010, 01:33 AM
I think eveyone should get a story. but I still like the Henry/werewolf and Tesla/Alucard at comic-con. P.S. throw in the Bigguy/as himself. lets just have a fun story thrown in there somewhere.

Chelle DB
December 4th, 2010, 04:04 AM
I think I enjoyed this episode better than Breach. I mean Breach was great but this ep had so much more to watch and learn from.
Tesla still is as enigmatic as ever - love him and think he did the right thing with the Sanctuary charter.
Will was great too - I really enjoyed him in this ep.
John - what can I say about John other than - yum!
And seeing he and Helen together in Cambodia - totally squee worthy and very touching. IMHO, this shows how much Helen still loves him. I loved it. :)
Seeing Helen ill...oh boy, it's gonna be a matter of hanging out every week now to see how her illness progresses. Lots of angst coming, I'm sure.
Loved the flashbacks - looking forward to more. :)
Great to see Watson again...and finally a look at Griffin - not bad. ;)
And once again, Ian Tracey is brilliant - scary but brilliant.
Loved this episode. I found it riveting throughout.
So what's next? :)

Aveo_amacus
December 4th, 2010, 05:01 AM
I loved this ep!
I love the early Helen and the early Five stories. Not to mention the Helen/John scenes were just amazing. Can't wait to see what happens next week

I do agree with what Jas says about Will when arguing about Adam - he was dangerous to the public the Five proved that with the cyanide.
one little error I noticed was when Helen and Will are looking at Adam's cells under the microscope Will says 'cell walls' animals don't have cell walls only plants do....

antipodal
December 4th, 2010, 06:25 AM
Excellent episode, the best of season 3 so far.

Great to see Druitt back, and also Watson (and more of Tesla).

Briangate78
December 4th, 2010, 07:01 AM
Excellent episode, even though it was slow moving it was very interesting. The show seems to be getting deeper and deeper. I am really looking forward to the next episode. I hope this story-line continues all the way into the end of the season.

Skydiver
December 4th, 2010, 07:44 AM
I think, with helen and druitt, she did it as much for herself as anything. She finally got to admit that she was scared. Adam had scared the crap out of her, and with druitt - conveniently unconscious - she could admit how scared she was. I think that's what was behind her jumping on will in the beginning. she was operating on adrenaline and fear adn was super defensive.

tesla and the charter: he did it to save helen. Because he knew she'd never allow adam access, even if it killed her, and Tesla wasn't going to let that happen. There's something between Tesla and adam. Because Tesla seemed very concerned and very 'down' and decicated to fixing things. so i think there's some heavy history between them.

I do like that they were basically blackmailed into stopping adam. got a very big 'league of extraordinary gentlemen' vibe off it all. They did what they had to do to survive as a group and as people.

I think it also sheds light on helen and Bertha...her distaste for being told to do stuff she doesn't want to do and finding ways around it. ways to do what she thinks is best instead of what others want.

Will will allow adam to help, even if it pisses helen off, because he'll save her, even if he has to save her from herself.

sanctuary girl
December 4th, 2010, 07:47 AM
And once again, Ian Tracey is brilliant - scary but brilliant.


That is so right. After last weeks episode I was impressed by his talent but this week was way better. It's soooo creepy when he goes from nice and friendly to evil. He is the best villain I have ever seen on TV

The moment between Helen and John, when she crawled into his bed was just sad. Her whole bodylanguage shouted loneliness and broken heart. She was hurt by him but is still deeply loves him ( and that despite the fact that I'm one of the Teslen shipper :o )

Skydiver
December 4th, 2010, 07:49 AM
the biggest reason i think will was arguing with helen is that he recognized her trauma. he knows what ptsd looks like, knows that she was damn scared and reacting primally in that ware house, and he knows her emotions are clouding her judgment. Just like he knows how to manipulate Adam and recognizes Adam for what he is.

Will was calling her on it, just like she'd told him to do last season or so.

Helen is in such an autonomous position, she really needs people to call her on stuff, needs people to question her. And i think she trusts will to do it not to tear her down, but to build her up.

MidwifeOnBoard
December 4th, 2010, 07:59 AM
I haven't rewatched yet, but a couple of nitpicky things that bugged me were the bad medicine things. 1. Helen wearing a t-shirt under her scrubs while scrubbing into the OR? No way. 2. The whole injecting into veins they do in this show. And not only did she do it on both John and Imogen, she did it twice into the same vein with John. a. She should have been giving John IM injections and b. once you inject into or draw blood from a vein you have to find another one because that one collapses temporarily. There is a reason why junkies have needle marks all over their body and not just in the antecubital vein. :P 3. John's IV in the infirmary appeared to be pointing in the wrong direction. IV cannulas need to be pointed towards the heart, not the fingers to get the fluids/meds into circulation quickly. *sigh*

I still loved this episode, don't get me wrong, but they are so meticulous about timeline and other things because scifi fans are so detail oriented, you'd think someone on the staff would have a friend or family member who is a nurse or doctor who they could ask about this stuff.




On Will saying (paraphrasing, of course), "This entire thing was built on the blood of a dead man."
If you've listened to the episode's promo, I was led to believe that the 'thing' Will was talking about what the city. (I hope I wasn't the only one?) I must admit, I was surprised and hadn't really made the link myself before he actually blurted it out in front of Magnus. Btw, I though this entire exchange was one of the high points of the episode. It was believable and true. I liked Will remembering Helen about the "no secrets" clause of his 'contract'.


I actually assumed he was talking about the Sanctuary in the promos. It's about time there was some tension between Helen and Will. He is a bit too much her puppy dog most of the time. I too thought the argument was great.






Honnestly, I don't really mind. I just ask myself why Nikola brought that to attention?
Perhaps since he knew Magnus didn't want to show Adam the map, he thought someone else who doesn't want Magnus dead should make the decision.
But knowing Tesla, I'm pretty sure he ALSO has a selfish reason for doing it. (Read here: I believe he wants to help Helen, but maybe help himself also?)



Yes, with Nikola there is always a selfish underlying motive, isn't there? But in this case, I believe that saving Helen is his primary motive because she certainly won't save herself.





I thought it was weird of the PM to tell her it was odd she's a scientist because she's a woman, but I'm glad she told him to address her as "Doctor" a bit later. ;)


During that time, it was not only unusual for a woman to be a physician and a scientist, it was considered to be eccentric and unnatural by most of society. Women were barely people in the eyes of the law at that time, don't forget. Her place in society was to marry and produce children, and she was essentially the property of her husband when she married.



1. It also makes you kinda wonder which version of Imogen's death is real, Adam's or Helen's. Sure we'd like to side with her because she's the hero of the show, but I wonder if the truth isn't somewhere in between. Same with the deal the Five struck with the King, how much was it truly to stop Adam and how much to preserve their work and futures.

2. Yeah, that was odd. Biggie could have been away on a mission, but it was very odd to see Kate just disappear like that. Though the episode was busy enough with everyone else.

1. I had similar thoughts. I think we are too quick to take Helen's version as the absolute truth just because she is the hero of the series. She's shown enough moral ambiguity both earlier and certainly in tonight's back story that all has to be taken with a grain of truth. Also, who knows if her version of Adam's death is the right one either?

2. I am glad they didn't try to explain away Kate and Biggie's absence. They were not integral to tonight's story and that is fine with me. It's been established that the Sanctuary staff go on missions both together and in small groups. I think we can simply assume that they were away on missions. :)

jckfan55
December 4th, 2010, 07:59 AM
Good episode. Lots of important story elements and character moments.

It started off strong and stayed at a high level, imho.

I liked that the story picked up directly from the last one in this case. I liked H, T & Will's concern for Helen's injuries. Will points out points out that Magnus has a concussion & she snaps at him (she's still in battle/crisis? mode)--excellent stuff.

I liked seeing the young Five. I liked the differences in the Adam vs Magnus stories about what happened. For example, Helen's clothes and hair, along with her manner are different in the different versions. Great attention to detail.

The Magnus Druitt nap ;) was quite heartwrenching. I almost thought it was going to go into a flashback of a similar moment in their past, but you know, you didn't need it. imho, your imagination can take you there

looking forward to the next ep.

2Shy
December 4th, 2010, 08:17 AM
The word that springs to mind when watching this ep is beautiful. Yeah, this was a beautiful episode. The performances, the look (especially the flashbacks), the music, and the viz effects. Since Lee Wilson himself directed this episode I can’t help but think Anthem pushed the effects a few notches further in this episode.
Again amazing character interaction from everyone and Ian Tracey doing a fantastic job once again.

I absolutely love the fact that the Sanctuary have a few skeletons in its closet, a few questionable moral issues beneath the surface. I mean, after 100 years there’s bound to be mistakes made and errors of judgment. Not to mention how moral and ethical issues is fluent with time. The fives hunt for Adam was justified and he did indeed jump off the cliff himself, but I do believe there are a few gray areas here that hasn’t been truly revealed.

In the case of Adam’s daughter I like to believe the truth lies somewhere in between the two versions we saw. To me it was clear that Adam came to Helen and Watson so they would help her by injecting her with the source blood. But what if in the end they did not do that, instead trying to help her through conventional and other experimental treatments, and failed.

But of course the big thing about this episode: Helen and John. She still loves him. *sigh* I’ve said it before and I say it again; this relationship is do delightfully messed up, and there’s just layers and layers of issues, and feelings and this bond between these two that seems unbreakable. And love.

And correct me if I’m wrong, but the scene where she lays down with him, that was Amanda’s idea, right? Think I read something like that in a report from TSE, can anyone that was there confirm?

And LMAO at the male concubine comments to Will. Helen obviously being stone-faced when Adam mentions it the first time, but the looks on Will and Tesla’s faces; big lol!

Skydiver
December 4th, 2010, 08:17 AM
I too thought will's comment about 'built on the blood of a dead man' referred to the sanctuary. Simply because i always assumed when adam said 'do what you were sent to do' i figured that helen was assassinating him on someone's orders, not just for kicks and giggles.

as to imogene and helen and adam, well I hold hte opinion that Hyde killed Adam's child to get the source blood. Whether or not adam realizes it we don't know. but there are times when i get the impression that the disassociative disorder is almost like being possessed by a goauld, in that the submissive personality at the time may not even be aware of what the dominant personality is doing. so Hyde could have poisoned immogene somehow and Adam doesn't even know it. My suspicion is supported by the response when Watson and Helen say no and walk out, it's almost a 'damn, didn't work' attitude rather than the desperation of a parent.

One thing...when helen is going to shoot adam, he says that he's been in the city before.


Adam: How Quaint. A woman with a firearm.

Magnus: You should have listened to me. It needn't have come to this.

Adam: And yet, here we are. (recognize this? helen says it to Terrance in Kali 3)

Magnus: Did you think they would just ignore you? Let you spread your chaos unchecked?

Adam: There is something you need to know, Helen. About this place. It's stupendous.

Magnus: Stop. I know you're doing. More talk until he can save it with his anger.

Adam: Then what are you waiting for? I know why you are here. What is your task is. Go ahead and finish. Finish it!


soooo.....was the whole thing a ploy? did adam run, find refuge in the hollow earth, get kicked out and get back in? or maybe find it, but can't get in, and is willing to 'die' to see if they'll take him in? (not out of the line if hte man also killed his daughter just to get the source blood)

so was the whole thing one giant manipulation?

MidwifeOnBoard
December 4th, 2010, 08:23 AM
1. The word that springs to mind when watching this ep is beautiful. Yeah, this was a beautiful episode. The performances, the look (especially the flashbacks), the music, and the viz effects. Since Lee Wilson himself directed this episode I can’t help but think Anthem pushed the effects a few notches further in this episode.
Again amazing character interaction from everyone and Ian Tracey doing a fantastic job once again.

2. I absolutely love the fact that the Sanctuary have a few skeletons in its closet, a few questionable moral issues beneath the surface. I mean, after 100 years there’s bound to be mistakes made and errors of judgment. Not to mention how moral and ethical issues is fluent with time. The fives hunt for Adam was justified and he did indeed jump off the cliff himself, but I do believe there are a few gray areas here that hasn’t been truly revealed.

3. But of course the big thing about this episode: Helen and John. She still loves him. *sigh* I’ve said it before and I say it again; this relationship is do delightfully messed up, and there’s just layers and layers of issues, and feelings and this bond between these two that seems unbreakable. And love.

4. And LMAO at the male concubine comments to Will. Helen obviously being stone-faced when Adam mentions it the first time, but the looks on Will and Tesla’s faces; big lol!

1. Agreed. Though they needed to use a filter for at least the Oxford flashbacks. I didn't buy any of those actors as 25 year old scientists. ;) Though I agree that the overall look of the flashbacks was quite stunning.

2. Yes. Black and white is so boring. Glad to see they are shaking up our comfort in the Sanctuary's moral rectitude.

3. It is a lovely, complicated, totally frakked up relationship. Wonderful.

4. Hee! Yes.

kes
December 4th, 2010, 08:31 AM
Btw, where was Kate? :p
Who cares? Perfect proof that she's pointless. *dodges tomatoes thrown by Kate lovers*
I did miss Biggie thou. I was like: Man he'd be all over Magnus, trying to take care of her :D

I'll try to review this magnificent ep after my 10th viewing :D

2Shy
December 4th, 2010, 08:48 AM
Just a quick question, what exactly does Tesla say over the speaker? I can't make it out.

"Good afternoon _______ our guest is awake."

Anyone care to fill in the blanks? ;)

jasminaGo
December 4th, 2010, 08:53 AM
Just a quick question, what exactly does Tesla say over the speaker? I can't make it out.

"Good afternoon _______ our guest is awake."

Anyone care to fill in the blanks? ;)

I think it was

"Good afternoon K-Mart shoppers our guest is awake."

2Shy
December 4th, 2010, 09:02 AM
I think it was

"Good afternoon K-Mart shoppers our guest is awake."

LMAO! Yeah, I heart it now, thanks! :D

Rocky89
December 4th, 2010, 09:24 AM
I really loved this episode! Some of my random thoughts:
--Right at the beginning Tesla notices Helen is hurt. I don't ship them, but that just struck me - I love that!!!

It seems everyone notices Helen's hurt first before anyone else. :p


--I loved how the flashbacks looked! And Helen in the flashbacks - GORGEOUS!

She's always gorgeous, past and present. :)


--The Telsa-Henry scenes are adorable!

Agreed, Tesla was was considered to be a great inventor and scientist, so seeing him working with Henry, with his modern time tech is a treat to see. :)


--First look at Adam once he has recovered in the infirmary - Helen did a good job of beating up on him! Well done!

Helen knows how to get butt. ;)


--I liked the Jello reference. (SG1!)

I didn't get it until now. :p


--Helen is in Cambodia. Of course she speaks Cambodian. Love how she handled herself with the people protecting Druitt. Not really sure I liked the vis effect when Helen disarmed the girl though. We don't usually see any is effects with any of Helen's "action moves".

I didn't noticed she was speaking Cambodian, I'll have to go back and listen. I thought the effect was kinda cool, and reminded me of a Smallville effect. :D Helen does move fast, we saw that in Kali 3.


--Of course Helen didn't actually murder Adam's daughter, but of course he wouldn't see it that way.
--I was shocked kind of shocked in last week's episode to think Helen really killed Adam. Her non-lethal shot seemed much more likely.

I think the way it was set up last week, to give us a little peak into their past, and leave us to get an idea of what happened, then give us the full story this week. I do believe Helen tried to save his daughter, I'm not sure when she and Watson choose to go back and try and help her, but I guess Adam wouldn't see it like that.

I was glad to see what really happened on the cliff, and I'm glad that Helen didn't actually kill Adam, he threw himself off the cliff, and Helen just wanted to wound him.


--Awww…Helen and John lying together. I'm getting weepy!!! We have never seen Helen with her guard down like this except with Ashley. Wow.

That was a very touching scene, it shows there's still something there and she may be able to forgive him yet again for all she's done. :)


--Druitt has never stopped loving Helen. When told Helen would never stop chasing him he said he hoped that was so.

I'm glad he was actually able to tell her that in Haunted, and that he was able to actually mean it since he was free of the entity. :)


Will needs to step off his high horse and look at the bigger picture. Adam was a mass killer. He wanted to kill thousands of people and if left alone he would have tried to do it again. The 'perks' the British government promised everyone were just that, perks. If The Five knew just how dangerous Adam really was they probably would have acted regardless, at least Helen and James if not the others. It's not like Helen actually killed him, he threw himself off, but it's a testament to her character that she does feel responsible for everything.

Very well said, Jas. ;) They always thought Adam was a bit off, I like to think that even if the PM hadn't promised them any perks, they probably would have tried to stop him anyway, had they done nothing, Adam would have killed all those people with the cyanide, and it's a good bet he wouldn't have stopped there.

Although I don't think Will has a high horse, I think he was just surprised at what he was learning, and what not. But I did like a lot when he went back to Adam the last time and gave him attitude. ;)


I think, with helen and druitt, she did it as much for herself as anything. She finally got to admit that she was scared. Adam had scared the crap out of her, and with druitt - conveniently unconscious - she could admit how scared she was. I think that's what was behind her jumping on will in the beginning. she was operating on adrenaline and fear adn was super defensive.

That's a good way of looking at it, Sky. :) I do hope you're right, and I like to think she trusts John enough to let her guard down with him.



tesla and the charter: he did it to save helen. Because he knew she'd never allow adam access, even if it killed her, and Tesla wasn't going to let that happen. There's something between Tesla and adam. Because Tesla seemed very concerned and very 'down' and dedicated to fixing things. so i think there's some heavy history between them.

Will will allow adam to help, even if it pisses helen off, because he'll save her, even if he has to save her from herself.

I think it also sheds light on helen and Bertha...her distaste for being told to do stuff she doesn't want to do and finding ways around it. ways to do what she thinks is best instead of what others want.


the biggest reason i think will was arguing with helen is that he recognized her trauma. he knows what ptsd looks like, knows that she was damn scared and reacting primally in that ware house, and he knows her emotions are clouding her judgment. Just like he knows how to manipulate Adam and recognizes Adam for what he is.

Will was calling her on it, just like she'd told him to do last season or so.

Helen is in such an autonomous position, she really needs people to call her on stuff, needs people to question her. And i think she trusts will to do it not to tear her down, but to build her up.

I think overall Will is just concerned for her, he knows she took a beating, and I think he puts her well being over that of Adam, since he was the one who started all this. I like to think that the main reason Tesla brought up the charter is to save Helen's life, even it does make him look bad to her. I also like to believe that they all have Helen's best interest at heart, and they are not doing this to be disloyal or betray her, they just want her to live, and I think they would do whatever they had to do to keep her alive, even if that meant doing something she didn't like or approve of. :)

Rocky89
December 4th, 2010, 09:24 AM
I had similar thoughts. I think we are too quick to take Helen's version as the absolute truth just because she is the hero of the series. She's shown enough moral ambiguity both earlier and certainly in tonight's back story that all has to be taken with a grain of truth. Also, who knows if her version of Adam's death is the right one either?


I absolutely love the fact that the Sanctuary have a few skeletons in its closet, a few questionable moral issues beneath the surface. I mean, after 100 years there’s bound to be mistakes made and errors of judgment. Not to mention how moral and ethical issues is fluent with time. The fives hunt for Adam was justified and he did indeed jump off the cliff himself, but I do believe there are a few gray areas here that hasn’t been truly revealed.

In the case of Adam’s daughter I like to believe the truth lies somewhere in between the two versions we saw. To me it was clear that Adam came to Helen and Watson so they would help her by injecting her with the source blood. But what if in the end they did not do that, instead trying to help her through conventional and other experimental treatments, and failed.

I believe Helen's version of how Adam "died" is the right one. In Breach we thought Helen just shot him in the chest, and he fell into the water, but in this episode we see that Helen shot him in the shoulder, not to kill him, but to wound him. If she had shot him in the chest, he would have fallen into the water and most likely would have died, and had a gunshot wound on his shirt. Also, when Adam was telling his version of what happened to Will, when he was in the water with John, he had a gunshot wound to the shoulder, not the chest, consisting of Helen's version, if Adam's version was all true, he wouldn't have that wound there, but in his chest, and when the "avatars" pulled him out of the water, he still had a gunshot wound to his shoulder, all consisting of Helen's version. :) That's why I believe Helen wanted to wound him, but he choose to throw himself off the cliff.

As to his daughter, I still think both Helen and Adam's version can be true, just that the story was told out of order. When he asked Helen and Watson to help, she turned him down, but then came back to help him using actual 1880 medicine, instead of the source blood. When that didn't work, she died, and that's when we saw him alone with her when she passed away. I think that's why Adam blames her and Watson, because she used conventional medicne and not the source blood.


as to imogene and helen and adam, well I hold hte opinion that Hyde killed Adam's child to get the source blood. Whether or not adam realizes it we don't know. but there are times when i get the impression that the disassociative disorder is almost like being possessed by a goauld, in that the submissive personality at the time may not even be aware of what the dominant personality is doing. so Hyde could have poisoned immogene somehow and Adam doesn't even know it. My suspicion is supported by the response when Watson and Helen say no and walk out, it's almost a 'damn, didn't work' attitude rather than the desperation of a parent.

One thing...when helen is going to shoot adam, he says that he's been in the city before

soooo.....was the whole thing a ploy? did adam run, find refuge in the hollow earth, get kicked out and get back in? or maybe find it, but can't get in, and is willing to 'die' to see if they'll take him in? (not out of the line if hte man also killed his daughter just to get the source blood)

so was the whole thing one giant manipulation?

Wow, great thoery, I hope that's the case. :)

Aveo_amacus
December 4th, 2010, 09:50 AM
The thing I like about Adam is that he's the original Jekyll and Hyde, when I first started watching the webisodes or S1 of Sanctuary I thought maybe 2-faced Chuck was the Jekyll and Hyde character for Sanctuary but we find out Adam's so much more than that


In the second flash back Helen says "don't you think there's something odd about Adam" I love the possible foreshadowing of the split personality developing

Love your idea, Skydiver, of poisoning Imogen to get the source blood


1. Agreed. Though they needed to use a filter for at least the Oxford flashbacks. I didn't buy any of those actors as 25 year old scientists. ;) Though I agree that the overall look of the flashbacks was quite stunning.

You do make a good point MOB, although the later flashbacks take place nearly 20 years later

MidwifeOnBoard
December 4th, 2010, 09:59 AM
You do make a good point MOB, although the later flashbacks take place nearly 20 years later

Which is why I was more okay with those than the Oxford ones. ;)

EH-T
December 4th, 2010, 10:35 AM
So, now I have my answer to last week's question about Helen killing Adam. She didn't! Kudos to the Sanctuary folk for the way this was played out over the two episodes.

My take on the 5 going after Adam: they originally had in mind just to stop him and take him prisoner. I think this changed when they saw the machine to poison the water supply. However, even after that Helen still hesitated and only shot him in the arm. Great to speculate on whether she would have killed him if he had not jumped off the cliff.

Wonderful episode, definitely of the information overload type!

Wonderful to see CH as John again. He does a great job as Bigfoot but I so love to see him as John and I have missed that. Beautiful, heartbreaking scene where Helen lies down beside him. Spoiled for those who do not wish to read about experiences they have not shared at TSE AT spoke about this scene although I don't recall if she said it was her idea or not.

Funniest moments (and I love that in all the seriousness of the subject matter of this ep that we can still get LOL moments): the "attention K-mart shoppers" bit and Adam referring to Will as a male concubine. Will Will (;)), or RD for that matter, ever live down that moniker?

I am loving the Henry/Telsa scenes so much this year. Wonderful give and take.


I am a big fan of the Five so happy to see the flashbacks. Great job by the costume and hair departments!

The title of this makes me laugh because (again spoilered because it relates to TSE) every time AT said "For King and Country" at TSE it sounded to me like she was saying "Frickin' Country"! Can't get that out of my head. :)

Kudos to LW, I think he did a wonderful job directing this episode.

Finally, I am now a convert to the new opening theme music.




Now this was definitely one of the better episodes.

But I wonder how many more times Magnus is going to be removed from her position before the end of the season.

I did have a moment of "here we go again" when Tesla brought this up but I completely understand the need for it in this circumstance. I don't see Helen ever allowing Adam what he wants just to save herself.


So which way will Will swing? For her or against her? Was Tesla being entirely selfish? Or was he simply trying to be cautious?

If you have seen the preview for the next ep, you know which way Will will go. As for Tesla, I think there is always an element of selfishness in everything he does and usually a large element. However, I do think part of his motivation is to save Helen and he knew she wouldn't do it just to save herself.




[QUOTE]I really dislike Adam. In a good way, mind you. I like the fact that I don't like him. (If that makes sense. ;P) I liked his interactions with the Sanctuary team, but I guess I would have wanted him to interact more with Tesla or Druitt. Perhaps in future eps?

I hope we get that too. Once again, Ian Tracey was brilliant. Want to see a lot more of he and AT as well as with CH and JY.


And you know... :rolleyes: *sighs happily* Helen settling in Druitt's arms was really heartfelt. It was full on emotions and I wouldn't no exactly which ones. I'd say something along love, regret, pain, sadness, anger... Nice mix. ;P For me, it just felt right and it was simply a beautiful moment to watch. And if not for the ship, take it as a moment where Helen attempts to reconcile with her past. :)

Well said, I agree.


Oh! Another thing I adored about the episode. The alternance between past and present was absolutely enjoyable! It really flowed together and I found out that I really missed seeing those flashbacks. (There weren't that much - or not at all? - in season 2.) I now have an healthy dose to go on for a couple of weeks. :D

I agree it was very well done. I had the inital impression that FK&C would be completely set in the past. I would have enjoyed that too but I think the back and forth was well done.

LadyGalaxyJ
December 4th, 2010, 12:21 PM
I think, with helen and druitt, she did it as much for herself as anything. She finally got to admit that she was scared. Adam had scared the crap out of her, and with druitt - conveniently unconscious - she could admit how scared she was. I think that's what was behind her jumping on will in the beginning. she was operating on adrenaline and fear adn was super defensive.

tesla and the charter: he did it to save helen. Because he knew she'd never allow adam access, even if it killed her, and Tesla wasn't going to let that happen. There's something between Tesla and adam. Because Tesla seemed very concerned and very 'down' and decicated to fixing things. so i think there's some heavy history between them.

I do like that they were basically blackmailed into stopping adam. got a very big 'league of extraordinary gentlemen' vibe off it all. They did what they had to do to survive as a group and as people.

I think it also sheds light on helen and Bertha...her distaste for being told to do stuff she doesn't want to do and finding ways around it. ways to do what she thinks is best instead of what others want.

Will will allow adam to help, even if it pisses helen off, because he'll save her, even if he has to save her from herself.
I agree with all of this!

And loved the theory on Hyde maybe killing Imogen. I hadn't pick up that. I hope they don't drop this story line, even with Helen's sickness. :)

sanctuary girl
December 4th, 2010, 12:29 PM
Will will allow adam to help, even if it pisses helen off, because he'll save her, even if he has to save her from herself.

I think that is exactly the point. Helen is incredibly stubborn and Will totally loyal. He would do anything to save her. And that includes a deal with the devil against her wishes.

Skydiver
December 4th, 2010, 12:49 PM
tesla and druitt will do it too. druitt will control adam, tesla will be trying to figure it out...at the same time tesla will be looking for himself and anything he can slip in his pocket ;)

hedwig
December 4th, 2010, 01:35 PM
Simply because i always assumed soooo.....was the whole thing a ploy? did adam run, find refuge in the hollow earth, get kicked out and get back in? or maybe find it, but can't get in, and is willing to 'die' to see if they'll take him in? (not out of the line if hte man also killed his daughter just to get the source blood)

so was the whole thing one giant manipulation?

Did I miss something? How did you conclude Adam killed his daughter? Because he thought they'd use the source blood on her to heal her? :)

Skydiver
December 4th, 2010, 01:44 PM
yeah.

adam wanted it. And i can see Hyde, mister unquenchable thirst for violence, considering the death of a young girl to be a small price to pay to get the source blood.

adam was, to me, obsessed with being part of the five.

I think, hyde tried to use immogene to get adam into the five. then it failed and adam found out what hyde had done, but, of course, it's not hyde or adam's fault, it's everyone else's for not doing what they wanted done.

then comes 100 years of time for revenge to brew

MidwifeOnBoard
December 4th, 2010, 01:44 PM
Did I miss something? How did you conclude Adam killed his daughter? Because he thought they'd use the source blood on her to heal her? :)

I don't really find that plausible either, but I guess that remains to be seen as the season unfolds. Given 19th century technology, I'm not sure how Adam could have given his daughter leukemia.

kes
December 4th, 2010, 01:48 PM
I honestly dont know what to say about this ep.

It really made me wish for an ep that takes place entirely with the Five. That's my only problem with the episode. They could have done just a backstory on Adam and the Five rejecting him and then the chase for the mad man.

But this really worked. It evolved the story, it told us a bit more about the past and Magnus/Druitt moment! I really thought she did it cos she knew she was sick but she didnt! It made it even more powerful!

Skydiver
December 4th, 2010, 01:52 PM
I don't really find that plausible either, but I guess that remains to be seen as the season unfolds. Given 19th century technology, I'm not sure how Adam could have given his daughter leukemia.

we'll see how it works out. Either i'm right or wrong :)

debate is half the fun

I'm seeing adam as very devious, very manipulative and very much a plotter. I mean, either he lied or who else would count on helen following him through the rift to give her a fatal illness as a way to kill her? some serious, serious plotting.

Given his illness and Hyde's psychosis, i don't think you can put much past him.

but we'll find out more next week :D

hedwig
December 4th, 2010, 01:56 PM
I'm also a bit curious as to why this disease developed so rapidly in Helen. She's only been exposed to it for a day or two and there are already some pretty heavy duty changes happening in her body. It would seem to me that it ought to have taken longer to develop. Adam, after all, has been zipping back and forth through that portal who knows how many times and for how long before his confrontation with Helen, and he has apparently the same level of deterioration she has.

RealmOfX
December 4th, 2010, 02:21 PM
I don't really find that plausible either, but I guess that remains to be seen as the season unfolds. Given 19th century technology, I'm not sure how Adam could have given his daughter leukemia.

Ah but it isn't our 19th century technology, it's Sanctuary's technology ala steampunk where highly advanced things are possible.


I'm also a bit curious as to why this disease developed so rapidly in Helen. She's only been exposed to it for a day or two and there are already some pretty heavy duty changes happening in her body. It would seem to me that it ought to have taken longer to develop. Adam, after all, has been zipping back and forth through that portal who knows how many times and for how long before his confrontation with Helen, and he has apparently the same level of deterioration she has.

It's not a disease though, it's radiation poisoning and the speed of deterioration depends on the exposure.

MidwifeOnBoard
December 4th, 2010, 02:33 PM
we'll see how it works out. Either i'm right or wrong :)

debate is half the fun


Absolutely.


Ah but it isn't our 19th century technology, it's Sanctuary's technology ala steampunk where highly advanced things are possible.


In all honesty, we've seen very little actual steampunk during the 19th C flashbacks. Most of the steampunk elements have been in the present day. Even if it is a true 19th C steampunk era, steam-powered technology doesn't point towards high-level radiation sources. Just sayin. ;)

hedwig
December 4th, 2010, 02:33 PM
It's not a disease though, it's radiation poisoning and the speed of deterioration depends on the exposure.

Yes, I know it's not a disease. I couldn't think of the appropriate term, so I just used the word "disease"; it was simply the wrong choice of words. And my point is still, why is it that Helen's condition is as advanced as Adam's when she was only exposed once, compared to the numerous more times he's been exposed.

majorsal
December 4th, 2010, 02:49 PM
i've now watched it twice. i have mixed feelings on this, but not b/c it's not well done or anything. i think it's just kind of left me a bit sad-like...


random --


*i'm not a helen/john shipper (i haven't found anyone with helen i find WOW like i did with sam/jack), but that scene where she lays down with him was very beautifully done and poignant. well done, amanda! :)

*i did NOT like finding out helen was dying of radiation poisoning! okay, i cheated a bit and looked in a thread i shouldn't have (so i knew), but the way it was presented here, with will saying about her having chemo... that was waaaay to normal and made me feel like helen's got cancer. nitpicking, i know, but i'd prefer she was sick and dying from something abnormal or exotic, then something so many of our population suffers and dies from. it's too close to home. :S :p

*loved seeing the back in time stuff with the 5. so did they not want adam in their group more b/c they felt something strange from him, or they just liked their tight group just as it was? prob a combo.

*so the 5 agreed to bring in adam b/c he was a murdering menace, AND b/c it would make their own lives much easier... i like the slightly tarnished color on this, for all of them *and* helen.

*adam said he was brought back from the brink of death, but i think he *was* dead. i mean, how could he not, being face down in the water like that? so he was lying to helen about that, and 'why'? if he was brought back from death itself, does that make any difference on the cure, or what you're like after you're brought back?

*why was tesla so tame in this ep? not completely, but more than we're used to seeing. :p

*why did adam let himself fall off the cliff? was it so he could make it to the hollow earth? and how did he know about that anyways?

*i read on another thread that skydiver thinks adam purposely infected his daughter to manipulate the 5/helen, so is that true?

*one thing i got from the ep last night, on my first viewing, was the pacing of this ep... it almost felt like you've walked in on the middle of a movie, where the action was already taking place. but, on second view, i didn't feel that. strange :p


so all in all, another fine ep from the sanctuary ptb!! ;)

but i do feel there was the tint of melancholy through out the ep... i guess b/c adam's insane and planned all this, john holed himself up and drugged himself into oblivion so he wouldn't continue he monster ways, and helen's dying... yeah, happy times. :S :p

EvenstarSRV
December 4th, 2010, 02:53 PM
I think, with helen and druitt, she did it as much for herself as anything. She finally got to admit that she was scared. Adam had scared the crap out of her, and with druitt - conveniently unconscious - she could admit how scared she was. I think that's what was behind her jumping on will in the beginning. she was operating on adrenaline and fear adn was super defensive.

Yeah, she was scared and that really was the first time she let herself slow down and let down her guard since Adam attacked her. Lovely moment between the characters.



tesla and the charter: he did it to save helen. Because he knew she'd never allow adam access, even if it killed her, and Tesla wasn't going to let that happen. There's something between Tesla and adam. Because Tesla seemed very concerned and very 'down' and decicated to fixing things. so i think there's some heavy history between them.

I think there's likely a degree of jealousy on Tesla's part in relation to Adam, in that he seems to have a mastery over the technology and the Hollow Earth map that has given Tesla so much trouble. I also wonder if Adam wasn't in some part responsible for founding the Cabal, the PM did mention that he'd been able to infiltrate many levels of government.



2. I am glad they didn't try to explain away Kate and Biggie's absence. They were not integral to tonight's story and that is fine with me. It's been established that the Sanctuary staff go on missions both together and in small groups. I think we can simply assume that they were away on missions. :)

I can see Biggie being off on a mission, but Kate was with Helen and Will and the end of Breach, so it was quite jarring, to me at least, to see her just disappear in this episode with no explanation. At the least I think she should have been with Helen and Will as they were wheeling Adam in.



as to imogene and helen and adam, well I hold hte opinion that Hyde killed Adam's child to get the source blood. Whether or not adam realizes it we don't know. but there are times when i get the impression that the disassociative disorder is almost like being possessed by a goauld, in that the submissive personality at the time may not even be aware of what the dominant personality is doing. so Hyde could have poisoned immogene somehow and Adam doesn't even know it. My suspicion is supported by the response when Watson and Helen say no and walk out, it's almost a 'damn, didn't work' attitude rather than the desperation of a parent.

That's an interesting theory. I had thought his mental break didn't happen until Imogen's death, since DID is often caused by a extremely stressful or traumatic event, but there were hints of the Hyde persona earlier so I can see him subtly taking over for short periods and poisoning her.



soooo.....was the whole thing a ploy? did adam run, find refuge in the hollow earth, get kicked out and get back in? or maybe find it, but can't get in, and is willing to 'die' to see if they'll take him in? (not out of the line if hte man also killed his daughter just to get the source blood)

so was the whole thing one giant manipulation?

Hmm, I'm not sure if he'd been in the city before that, but I think he did know about it and that's why he let himself fall off the cliff. I do think since he got kicked out he's been manipulating things to get back in, including poisoning Helen to give her more motivation to find Hollow Earth.

majorsal
December 4th, 2010, 02:54 PM
Helen being sick could be what forces Will's hand into showing Adam the map. Will wasn't very happy with Adam when he confronted him towards the end. I could almost see him telling Adam if he lets Helen die, he would lock him in a room with John.


if i were will, i'd do everything to make sure helen survived... which is why, right after helen was saved, she'd fire me. :p

majorsal
December 4th, 2010, 03:04 PM
I did like how Helen said she like the idea of whipping Tesla. :p

did you notice when will was finished saying that, he started to laugh? i think amanda lost it a bit after he said it and robin just tried to go on. :p but it continued to work, b/c when they showed helen, she had a smirk on her face too, and didn't mind whipping tesla. :p (but i still think amanda and robin had a bit of probs doing that scene :p)



I think the "no secrets" thing was a nice reference to the pilot. I still think Helen and the rest of the Five had reason to track him down, Adam was going to try and kill so many people. Again, had they no agreed to track him down, many people would have been killed.

i did get a bit irked at will for having such a sanctimonious attitude about it. whether adam had mental probs or not, he WAS doing very bad stuff and needed to be stopped.


I mean, if it meant saving Helen's life, would you do what Tesla did? Yeah you. :p

sneaky tesla and good! :p

MidwifeOnBoard
December 4th, 2010, 03:05 PM
1. *adam said he was brought back from the brink of death, but i think he *was* dead. i mean, how could he not, being face down in the water like that? so he was lying to helen about that, and 'why'? if he was brought back from death itself, does that make any difference on the cure, or what you're like after you're brought back?

2. *why was tesla so tame in this ep? not completely, but more than we're used to seeing. :p

3. *why did adam let himself fall off the cliff? was it so he could make it to the hollow earth? and how did he know about that anyways?



1. Well, it was probably due to hypothermia. Chances are, he was on the verge of death, but not totally dead due to the temperature of the water. Assuming it was cold, that is. ;)

2. He mentioned that he was overwhelmed and humbled by the level of the technology they had encountered.

3. I would be willing to bet money he knew that hollow earth was under that canyon.



I can see Biggie being off on a mission, but Kate was with Helen and Will and the end of Breach, so it was quite jarring, to me at least, to see her just disappear in this episode with no explanation. At the least I think she should have been with Helen and Will as they were wheeling Adam in.


Actually, really good point. :)

hedwig
December 4th, 2010, 03:27 PM
An odd little thought occurred (I actually have a lot of odd little thoughts:p:D) about whether Hyde poisoned the daughter. It would certainly explain his "scream" when she died. A combination of Adam's agonized cry at the death of his daughter, and Hyde's cry/scream of rage at having failed. So that cry when the daughter died could actually have been a bit of each of them.

majorsal
December 4th, 2010, 03:28 PM
I liked that the story picked up directly from the last one in this case. I liked H, T & Will's concern for Helen's injuries. Will points out points out that Magnus has a concussion & she snaps at him (she's still in battle/crisis? mode)--excellent stuff.

thanks for reminding me on that again. poor helen... (((helen))) :p


I liked seeing the young Five. I liked the differences in the Adam vs Magnus stories about what happened. For example, Helen's clothes and hair, along with her manner are different in the different versions. Great attention to detail.

i didn't pay attention to that, so thanks for bringing that to attention! :D

YoshiKart64
December 4th, 2010, 03:32 PM
This storyline has quite frankly elevated Sanctuary to the next level for me. The last episode was quite frankly one of the best things I've seen in sci-fi in a long time and this, while not quite as epic, continued the brilliance.

If Sanctuary didn't have those slightly lesser bottle episodes I'd be willing to call it the best sci-fi show on TV.

hedwig
December 4th, 2010, 03:37 PM
Originally Posted by EvenstarSRV
I can see Biggie being off on a mission, but Kate was with Helen and Will and the end of Breach, so it was quite jarring, to me at least, to see her just disappear in this episode with no explanation. At the least I think she should have been with Helen and Will as they were wheeling Adam in.


Not that it explains anything about Kate's absence from the episode, but in the elevator scene as Helen and Will wheel Adam into it, and find Tesla and Henry there - Will says something about cleaning up the site they just came from, and to use whatever excuse they need to in order to get it done, and Henry then says "Biggie's on his way to meet Kate". I guess that's all the explanation we get as to the absence of both of them.

majorsal
December 4th, 2010, 03:39 PM
I'm also a bit curious as to why this disease developed so rapidly in Helen. She's only been exposed to it for a day or two and there are already some pretty heavy duty changes happening in her body. It would seem to me that it ought to have taken longer to develop. Adam, after all, has been zipping back and forth through that portal who knows how many times and for how long before his confrontation with Helen, and he has apparently the same level of deterioration she has.

good question. maybe b/c she wasn't wearing as thick and protective clothing as adam?

RealmOfX
December 4th, 2010, 03:42 PM
Absolutely.



In all honesty, we've seen very little actual steampunk during the 19th C flashbacks. Most of the steampunk elements have been in the present day. Even if it is a true 19th C steampunk era, steam-powered technology doesn't point towards high-level radiation sources. Just sayin. ;)

Seriously, it's already established that Sanctuary has/uses advanced tech and medical stuff both in the past and present so quibbling about "but they didn't have that back then" is in my book a tad unreasonable. It's canon, just go with it.

RealmOfX
December 4th, 2010, 03:44 PM
Yes, I know it's not a disease. I couldn't think of the appropriate term, so I just used the word "disease"; it was simply the wrong choice of words. And my point is still, why is it that Helen's condition is as advanced as Adam's when she was only exposed once, compared to the numerous more times he's been exposed.

Actually I got the impression it wasn't as advanced as Adam's condition, his organs were already starting to fail and Helen had only just progressed to coughing up blood and was still on her feet.

majorsal
December 4th, 2010, 03:49 PM
I think there's likely a degree of jealousy on Tesla's part in relation to Adam, in that he seems to have a mastery over the technology and the Hollow Earth map that has given Tesla so much trouble. I also wonder if Adam wasn't in some part responsible for founding the Cabal, the PM did mention that he'd been able to infiltrate many levels of government.

that popped into my head too. not so much funding the cabal, but... what if we find out adam was the ultimate one responsible for what happened to ashley? and he ends up telling helen that he, basically, was to blame for ashley's death, b/c she was the one that took his daughter away from him... watch out, b/c helen will go postal times 1000! :S :p


I can see Biggie being off on a mission, but Kate was with Helen and Will and the end of Breach, so it was quite jarring, to me at least, to see her just disappear in this episode with no explanation. At the least I think she should have been with Helen and Will as they were wheeling Adam in.

i wonder if kate and biggie were dealing with the warehouse, boarding it off and taking care of things, like helen said it needed to be? that explanation just came to mind, but yeah, it prob should have been explained where they were.

MidwifeOnBoard
December 4th, 2010, 03:51 PM
Seriously, it's already established that Sanctuary has/uses advanced tech and medical stuff both in the past and present so quibbling about "but they didn't have that back then" is in my book a tad unreasonable. It's canon, just go with it.

My argument about whether Adam could have caused his daughter's leukemia is hardly quibbling, and given that it's fan speculation not canon, makes my question totally legitimate. The amount of radiation needed to cause leukemia is quite intense, and would need to be very focused to only effect one girl.

majorsal
December 4th, 2010, 03:52 PM
Not that it explains anything about Kate's absence from the episode, but in the elevator scene as Helen and Will wheel Adam into it, and find Tesla and Henry there - Will says something about cleaning up the site they just came from, and to use whatever excuse they need to in order to get it done, and Henry then says "Biggie's on his way to meet Kate". I guess that's all the explanation we get as to the absence of both of them.

thanks, i missed it. twice! :p

majorsal
December 4th, 2010, 04:06 PM
another thing...

i loved helen's white shirt when she went to get john! :p

Skydiver
December 4th, 2010, 04:26 PM
I'm also a bit curious as to why this disease developed so rapidly in Helen. She's only been exposed to it for a day or two and there are already some pretty heavy duty changes happening in her body. It would seem to me that it ought to have taken longer to develop. Adam, after all, has been zipping back and forth through that portal who knows how many times and for how long before his confrontation with Helen, and he has apparently the same level of deterioration she has.

yeah. Helen went through the rift once. Adam, oh i lost count but 50+ times or so???? plus adam had exposed skin twice.

one would think adam, a regular mortal vs helen, with her longevity, his greater exposure, her lesser exposure, wouldn't be quite as sick or it'd be slower in her.

then again, maybe she can be chronic for months before succumbing...and i bet adam does right about the time the actor's contract ends ;)

Skydiver
December 4th, 2010, 04:33 PM
[QUOTE]Yeah, she was scared and that really was the first time she let herself slow down and let down her guard since Adam attacked her. Lovely moment between the characters.

it was. very nice.




I think there's likely a degree of jealousy on Tesla's part in relation to Adam, in that he seems to have a mastery over the technology and the Hollow Earth map that has given Tesla so much trouble. I also wonder if Adam wasn't in some part responsible for founding the Cabal, the PM did mention that he'd been able to infiltrate many levels of government.

yep, tesla does not tolerate ANYONE beating him in any way.




I can see Biggie being off on a mission, but Kate was with Helen and Will and the end of Breach, so it was quite jarring, to me at least, to see her just disappear in this episode with no explanation. At the least I think she should have been with Helen and Will as they were wheeling Adam in.

Kate is, from the line where helen says to get hazmat to cordon it off, spin whatever story necessary and that biggie is meeing her, securing the warehouse.




That's an interesting theory. I had thought his mental break didn't happen until Imogen's death, since DID is often caused by a extremely stressful or traumatic event, but there were hints of the Hyde persona earlier so I can see him subtly taking over for short periods and poisoning her.

we'll find out :)




Hmm, I'm not sure if he'd been in the city before that, but I think he did know about it and that's why he let himself fall off the cliff. I do think since he got kicked out he's been manipulating things to get back in, including poisoning Helen to give her more motivation to find Hollow Earth.
his comment about it being stupendous suggests that he has, then again he could be bluffing to keep her from killing him.


1. Well, it was probably due to hypothermia. Chances are, he was on the verge of death, but not totally dead due to the temperature of the water. Assuming it was cold, that is. ;)

:)

yep. no miracle max needed ;)

people can be 'dead' and frozen for long periods of time and still be revived


Not that it explains anything about Kate's absence from the episode, but in the elevator scene as Helen and Will wheel Adam into it, and find Tesla and Henry there - Will says something about cleaning up the site they just came from, and to use whatever excuse they need to in order to get it done, and Henry then says "Biggie's on his way to meet Kate". I guess that's all the explanation we get as to the absence of both of them.

that's how i'm interpreting it. Will got helen and adam to help, kate stayed behind to lock down and clean up the warehouse. who better to spin the story and make things happen?

majorsal
December 4th, 2010, 04:37 PM
possibility of why helen's poisoning is as big as adam's...

'breach' spoilers

when helen kept coming upon those disk thingies in the ceiling; what if *those* were the things that upped her radiation poisoning to adam's level? she didn't know what they were, and even stabbed one (and got electrocuted). so?...

hedwig
December 4th, 2010, 05:05 PM
Actually I got the impression it wasn't as advanced as Adam's condition, his organs were already starting to fail and Helen had only just progressed to coughing up blood and was still on her feet.

I was thinking it was very far advanced because of when Tesla handed Will a file with test results, and it said it had spread to the lymph nodes/organs, and the spine. That's pretty far advanced for just a few days time. Unless it has something to do with whatever type of radiation it is. Helen did say something about it being the kind of radiation the human body should never be exposed to or some such thing. Not that there's any kind the human body should be exposed to. But she made it sound like something worse that "normal" kinds of radiation.

Plus, it looks from the previews that Adam is still on his feet. And if he's going to "lead" them anywhere, he's going to need to be on his feet quite a bit.

majorsal
December 4th, 2010, 05:28 PM
in the part where helen was explaining to will about going through time (insert techno babble), she then made a remark about it sounding so ridiculous (i think that was her word for it) when saying it...

that *so* reminded me of the stuff sam had had to say, so i wonder if that was in inside joke? :p

RealmOfX
December 4th, 2010, 05:29 PM
My argument about whether Adam could have caused his daughter's leukemia is hardly quibbling, and given that it's fan speculation not canon, makes my question totally legitimate. The amount of radiation needed to cause leukemia is quite intense, and would need to be very focused to only effect one girl.

What I said was canon was that Sanctuary has/uses advanced tech and medical stuff both in the past and present. Radiation is not the only thing that is thought to be a possible cause of leukemia there are other things, just off the top of my head things like Benzene and Formaldehyde, both of which were substances known of in the 1800's. Known substances + advanced medical knowledge/techniques = a very possible situation that Adam could have caused the disease within the Sanctuary universe.

EvenstarSRV
December 4th, 2010, 05:37 PM
Not that it explains anything about Kate's absence from the episode, but in the elevator scene as Helen and Will wheel Adam into it, and find Tesla and Henry there - Will says something about cleaning up the site they just came from, and to use whatever excuse they need to in order to get it done, and Henry then says "Biggie's on his way to meet Kate". I guess that's all the explanation we get as to the absence of both of them.

Ah, nice catch, I completely missed those lines. Kate's absence makes much more sense to me now, thanks! :)


My argument about whether Adam could have caused his daughter's leukemia is hardly quibbling, and given that it's fan speculation not canon, makes my question totally legitimate. The amount of radiation needed to cause leukemia is quite intense, and would need to be very focused to only effect one girl.

From what I've learned benzene or other carcinogenic chemicals can also cause leukemia in a person, so it doesn't necessarily need to be radiation, IMO.

Though I do mostly agree with Realm's point, if Helen being able to freeze an embryo almost a century before that was a viable procedure is plausible, then I think a lot of the other seemingly anachronistic technology can also be considered plausible.

LadyGalaxyJ
December 4th, 2010, 06:20 PM
I was thinking it was very far advanced because of when Tesla handed Will a file with test results, and it said it had spread to the lymph nodes/organs, and the spine. That's pretty far advanced for just a few days time. Unless it has something to do with whatever type of radiation it is. Helen did say something about it being the kind of radiation the human body should never be exposed to or some such thing. Not that there's any kind the human body should be exposed to. But she made it sound like something worse that "normal" kinds of radiation.

Plus, it looks from the previews that Adam is still on his feet. And if he's going to "lead" them anywhere, he's going to need to be on his feet quite a bit.
That was the only explanation I needed on Helen's part. :) It made sense IMO.

Mandysg1
December 4th, 2010, 06:27 PM
If they keep raising the bar, I'll never be able to see above it ;)

Another winner by our Sanctuary team, I really liked how it started as a continuation from Breach. You could definitely tell who won the fight :p

Adam/ Hyde is such a good villian, what's best is Ian Tracey does not play it over the top. I really enjoyed the flashback scenes, the costuming was excellent, the way the story unravelled in front us was really well done, in the pacing and being interwoven with the present. We learned so much about Helen's background with the five and Adam. Now I know that Adam wasn't an abnormal, but something much worse and dangerous....a genious with an evil split personality.

I also liked how we got a contrast in the story telling of Adam's and Helen's versions. I think Adam's view is skewed to how he thinks or believes it happened, his illness playing a part in that.

And now for the revelation that Helen has the same radiation poisoning as Adam, and he wanted her to jump into the rift with him....I have to say, I didn't see that set up. Now we have a new pressing adventure, find the Hollow city and a cure for Helen, these episodes have kept me glued to my seat, and wanting more...Is it Friday yet? ;)

xPointOfOriginx
December 4th, 2010, 07:23 PM
I LOVE that Adam is just your normal, everyday lunatic and not an abnormal, much more compelling. I am loving how we are seeing another side to Magnus, she's actually pretty selfish and callous albeit in a charming and compassionate way. Some great lines in this episode too, love the part about Will being the concubine, when Magnus says 'How old are you? Walking about with a gun like this...' BRILLIANT!

Rocky89
December 4th, 2010, 09:45 PM
So, now I have my answer to last week's question about Helen killing Adam. She didn't! Kudos to the Sanctuary folk for the way this was played out over the two episodes.

My take on the 5 going after Adam: they originally had in mind just to stop him and take him prisoner. I think this changed when they saw the machine to poison the water supply. However, even after that Helen still hesitated and only shot him in the arm. Great to speculate on whether she would have killed him if he had not jumped off the cliff.

Well said. :) I'm glad they didn't make Helen look a killer, but someone who actually tried to help him. :) I like to think all the wanted to do is catch, but things did change when they saw what he was up to. Well, she did warm him that the second shot would be worse, and he did say that her legacy would be that she killed him, so maybe when he threw himself off the cliff, he wanted to die to make her feel guilty about it.


Finally, I am now a convert to the new opening theme music.

I liked it from the start. :) In fact, today at work I found myself singing it. :p Even Amanda says she dances to it when she hears it. :p


i've now watched it twice. i have mixed feelings on this, but not b/c it's not well done or anything. i think it's just kind of left me a bit sad-like...

random --

*i'm not a helen/john shipper (i haven't found anyone with helen i find WOW like i did with sam/jack), but that scene where she lays down with him was very beautifully done and poignant. well done, amanda! :)

It was a very touching moment, I think that even though he's done a lot to hurt her, she knows it's not really his fault, and she's taken a chance by letting him get closer to her. :)


*i did NOT like finding out helen was dying of radiation poisoning! okay, i cheated a bit and looked in a thread i shouldn't have (so i knew), but the way it was presented here, with will saying about her having chemo... that was waaaay to normal and made me feel like helen's got cancer. nitpicking, i know, but i'd prefer she was sick and dying from something abnormal or exotic, then something so many of our population suffers and dies from. it's too close to home. :p

She'll be OK, honey. You can trust me, everyone does. :p


*so the 5 agreed to bring in adam b/c he was a murdering menace, AND b/c it would make their own lives much easier... i like the slightly tarnished color on this, for all of them *and* helen.

It goes to show you that they're... human and they'll do what's right and still be rewarded too. :)

so all in all, another fine ep from the sanctuary ptb!! ;)

Duh. :p


if i were will, i'd do everything to make sure helen survived... which is why, right after helen was saved, she'd fire me. :p

Me too. Whatever Will and the others decide to do, I believe they're doing it for Helen's best interest, even if she doesn't approve. She may not care about what happens to her, but they do, and if Adam can help save her, then they may have to work with him.


did you notice when will was finished saying that, he started to laugh? i think amanda lost it a bit after he said it and robin just tried to go on. :p but it continued to work, b/c when they showed helen, she had a smirk on her face too, and didn't mind whipping tesla. :p (but i still think amanda and robin had a bit of probs doing that scene :p)

I didn't, I'll have to go back and look at that part. :p


This storyline has quite frankly elevated Sanctuary to the next level for me. The last episode was quite frankly one of the best things I've seen in sci-fi in a long time and this, while not quite as epic, continued the brilliance.

If Sanctuary didn't have those slightly lesser bottle episodes I'd be willing to call it the best sci-fi show on TV.

Damn straight. ;)


another thing...

i loved helen's white shirt when she went to get john! :p

Me too. :p

Rocky89
December 4th, 2010, 10:00 PM
yeah. Helen went through the rift once. Adam, oh i lost count but 50+ times or so???? plus adam had exposed skin twice.

one would think adam, a regular mortal vs helen, with her longevity, his greater exposure, her lesser exposure, wouldn't be quite as sick or it'd be slower in her.

then again, maybe she can be chronic for months before succumbing...and i bet adam does right about the time the actor's contract ends ;)

Agreed, he went through the rift so many times, and she went through it once for a short time, so he should be dying much faster than her. LOL at the contract comment. :p


possibility of why helen's poisoning is as big as adam's...

'breach' spoilers

when helen kept coming upon those disk thingies in the ceiling; what if *those* were the things that upped her radiation poisoning to adam's level? she didn't know what they were, and even stabbed one (and got electrocuted). so?...

She was zapped/shocked by one, so maybe that accelerated her condition. But what about Henry and Tesla, they both touched it, so is there any danger to them? Then again, it was offline when they touched it.


in the part where helen was explaining to will about going through time (insert techno babble), she then made a remark about it sounding so ridiculous (i think that was her word for it) when saying it...

that *so* reminded me of the stuff sam had had to say, so i wonder if that was in inside joke? :p

I thought of Stargate when Helen started talking about time and space. :p


If they keep raising the bar, I'll never be able to see above it ;)

Another winner by our Sanctuary team, I really liked how it started as a continuation from Breach. You could definitely tell who won the fight :p

Adam/ Hyde is such a good villian, what's best is Ian Tracey does not play it over the top. I really enjoyed the flashback scenes, the costuming was excellent, the way the story unravelled in front us was really well done, in the pacing and being interwoven with the present. We learned so much about Helen's background with the five and Adam. Now I know that Adam wasn't an abnormal, but something much worse and dangerous....a genious with an evil split personality.

I also liked how we got a contrast in the story telling of Adam's and Helen's versions. I think Adam's view is skewed to how he thinks or believes it happened, his illness playing a part in that.

And now for the revelation that Helen has the same radiation poisoning as Adam, and he wanted her to jump into the rift with him....I have to say, I didn't see that set up. Now we have a new pressing adventure, find the Hollow city and a cure for Helen, these episodes have kept me glued to my seat, and wanting more...Is it Friday yet? ;)

Good review, the show just keeps better and better. ;)

llp
December 5th, 2010, 01:17 AM
It could be that because of the cut on Helen's hand, it made her more susceptible. Plus Adam knew that just entering the rift was all he needed to make her sick.

meredithchandler73
December 5th, 2010, 05:11 AM
*adam said he was brought back from the brink of death, but i think he *was* dead. i mean, how could he not, being face down in the water like that? so he was lying to helen about that, and 'why'? if he was brought back from death itself, does that make any difference on the cure, or what you're like after you're brought back?

Well, Will was dead and he didn't come back "wrong" so maybe it's not really about being dead or close to death.

I'm not going to multi-quote here - too many to go through. I've been away from this forum for a long while and it's SOOOO nice to be back again. There's always such great discussion here. More random thoughts:

I can't figure out how Adam could possibly have known about Hollow Earth in advance of jumping off the cliff, or been sure that he would get there and be saved. Then again, Gregory had the pieces of the map somewhere around this time (he gave those gifts to Helen when she turned 26 and 34, right?) - and presumably he knew their significance when he gave them to her. Could something similar have happened to Gregory that happened to Will? That Gregory somehow encountered the Avatar Council from Hollow Earth and his memory was wiped clean and he was allowed to live and return? With Will, the reason he was so troubled when he came back was that Gregory sent him a message that he urgently had to recall, but he wasn't able to recall. His might was not letting him sleep because he knew it was something very important.

I had the thought that Tesla was a bit tamer than he has been in the past, but I think that has been the case ever since he was de-vamped. And he talks about his last encounter with Druitt - he is an ex-vamp while Druitt is still a stone cold killer. Tesla was afraid of John in a way he hadn't been when he was a vampire. And then there was the "humbling" moment as he is faced with all the technology he has never seen and had never dreamt of. I think it's all strikes just the right tone. He is a fantastic character and Jonathan Young is fabulous. Tesla/Jonathan Young never let me down. :)

I didn't think that Robin starting to laugh at the end of the "whipping Tesla" line was a goof - I thought that was how he chose to play the line. Everything was so serious and although he was serious about making Tesla find some cure, saying, "We will whip Tesla like a rented mule" is not something you say with a straight face anyway. I thought it was played just right as was Helen's response.

I've been reading the thoughts about whether Adam may have actually made his own daughter ill or if it was possible to give someone leukemia at that time. Another thought crossed my mind: what if she hadn't really been his daughter? An already sick child he "adopted" for the purpose of getting "in" with The Five. I'd gathered it's been a while since they were in school together, so how would they know if he were lying about having a daughter or not? I'm not really sure how I feel about the whole theory of using the sick child - whether it was his daughter or not, whether she had really been sick or made sick.

I'm a little pissed at Will. I understand him being upset because he didn't want any more secrets, but to think that it wasn't right for The Five to go after a dangerous individual like Adam is just stupid. And she didn't outright kill him but tried to bring him in and stop him. Well, now Helen will be pissed at Will since it's obvious he will agree to show Adam the map.

I wish I had a better ear for accents. I can't figure out in the flashbacks if we're getting hints of Adam's split personalities before the death of his daughter.

As much as I do believe Tesla wants to help save Helen, I think he would be very happy to find Hollow Earth and the secret to Adam's longevity, access to all that superior technology, etc. It would be too much to hope they'd know of some way he could become a vampire again - since there were safeguards in place to keep vampires from finding the city.

I cannot say enough how much I love that moment where Helen lays down with John. Hmmm...wonder if there is some secret in Hollow Earth that may help Druitt?!??!

I mentioned before, when Helen was talking to Adam on the cliff she said: "You should have listened to me. It needn't have come to this." What exactly did she tell him? And then Adam says, "You were wrong about me Helen. You can't even admit it now, can you?" What exactly is he referring to?

I'm not the only one that was tickled by Helen's line, "How old are you?!? Walking about with a gun like this, you should be ashamed!" The thing is, if I were as little as her (and I think I am), I'd choose a really big gun for protection, too!

The first flashback to Adam's daughter - where Helen and James diagnose her and rather abruptly say, "You have my condolences" and walk out seemed off to me. Rewatch that scene - Helen is so dispassionate and unemotional. If, in fact, it was discovered that the girl had a rare form of leukemia and there was nothing to be done, Helen would have not told him in such a cold, unfeeling manner. I'm more likely to believe Helen's version - that they did try to save the girl (but of course, not using the source blood).

kes
December 5th, 2010, 06:21 AM
Forgot to mentioned how much I loved watching Druitt tower over Adam all the way out the door lol

jelgate
December 5th, 2010, 06:49 AM
Well, Will was dead and he didn't come back "wrong" so maybe it's not really about being dead or close to death.

I'm not going to multi-quote here - too many to go through. I've been away from this forum for a long while and it's SOOOO nice to be back again. There's always such great discussion here. More random thoughts:

I can't figure out how Adam could possibly have known about Hollow Earth in advance of jumping off the cliff, or been sure that he would get there and be saved. Then again, Gregory had the pieces of the map somewhere around this time (he gave those gifts to Helen when she turned 26 and 34, right?) - and presumably he knew their significance when he gave them to her. Could something similar have happened to Gregory that happened to Will? That Gregory somehow encountered the Avatar Council from Hollow Earth and his memory was wiped clean and he was allowed to live and return? With Will, the reason he was so troubled when he came back was that Gregory sent him a message that he urgently had to recall, but he wasn't able to recall. His might was not letting him sleep because he knew it was something very important.

I had the thought that Tesla was a bit tamer than he has been in the past, but I think that has been the case ever since he was de-vamped. And he talks about his last encounter with Druitt - he is an ex-vamp while Druitt is still a stone cold killer. Tesla was afraid of John in a way he hadn't been when he was a vampire. And then there was the "humbling" moment as he is faced with all the technology he has never seen and had never dreamt of. I think it's all strikes just the right tone. He is a fantastic character and Jonathan Young is fabulous. Tesla/Jonathan Young never let me down. :)

I didn't think that Robin starting to laugh at the end of the "whipping Tesla" line was a goof - I thought that was how he chose to play the line. Everything was so serious and although he was serious about making Tesla find some cure, saying, "We will whip Tesla like a rented mule" is not something you say with a straight face anyway. I thought it was played just right as was Helen's response.

I've been reading the thoughts about whether Adam may have actually made his own daughter ill or if it was possible to give someone leukemia at that time. Another thought crossed my mind: what if she hadn't really been his daughter? An already sick child he "adopted" for the purpose of getting "in" with The Five. I'd gathered it's been a while since they were in school together, so how would they know if he were lying about having a daughter or not? I'm not really sure how I feel about the whole theory of using the sick child - whether it was his daughter or not, whether she had really been sick or made sick.

I'm a little pissed at Will. I understand him being upset because he didn't want any more secrets, but to think that it wasn't right for The Five to go after a dangerous individual like Adam is just stupid. And she didn't outright kill him but tried to bring him in and stop him. Well, now Helen will be pissed at Will since it's obvious he will agree to show Adam the map.
I wish I had a better ear for accents. I can't figure out in the flashbacks if we're getting hints of Adam's split personalities before the death of his daughter.

As much as I do believe Tesla wants to help save Helen, I think he would be very happy to find Hollow Earth and the secret to Adam's longevity, access to all that superior technology, etc. It would be too much to hope they'd know of some way he could become a vampire again - since there were safeguards in place to keep vampires from finding the city.

I cannot say enough how much I love that moment where Helen lays down with John. Hmmm...wonder if there is some secret in Hollow Earth that may help Druitt?!??!

I mentioned before, when Helen was talking to Adam on the cliff she said: "You should have listened to me. It needn't have come to this." What exactly did she tell him? And then Adam says, "You were wrong about me Helen. You can't even admit it now, can you?" What exactly is he referring to?

I'm not the only one that was tickled by Helen's line, "How old are you?!? Walking about with a gun like this, you should be ashamed!" The thing is, if I were as little as her (and I think I am), I'd choose a really big gun for protection, too!

The first flashback to Adam's daughter - where Helen and James diagnose her and rather abruptly say, "You have my condolences" and walk out seemed off to me. Rewatch that scene - Helen is so dispassionate and unemotional. If, in fact, it was discovered that the girl had a rare form of leukemia and there was nothing to be done, Helen would have not told him in such a cold, unfeeling manner. I'm more likely to believe Helen's version - that they did try to save the girl (but of course, not using the source blood).

They guy just found off that his boss and friend had kept a murder from him. I be a little ticked off too regardless if it was justified or not. And then their is the killing of Adam gave Magnus the money to start the Sanctuary network

ann_sgcfan
December 5th, 2010, 07:42 AM
the biggest reason i think will was arguing with helen is that he recognized her trauma. he knows what ptsd looks like, knows that she was damn scared and reacting primally in that ware house, and he knows her emotions are clouding her judgment. Just like he knows how to manipulate Adam and recognizes Adam for what he is.

Will was calling her on it, just like she'd told him to do last season or so.

Helen is in such an autonomous position, she really needs people to call her on stuff, needs people to question her. And i think she trusts will to do it not to tear her down, but to build her up.

I agree. Helen is what 159 years old? Think about how much society has changed, how many wars, plagues and deaths have taken place in a century and a half. She has seen so much. Perhaps it has hardened her and that is why she prefers to do things on her own rather than tell anyone much less contact the sanctuary council.

Now her second in command so to speak is very by the books. He calls her own it when she crosses the line. She needs that, everyone does. If she doesn't have someone that holds her accountable ... then sooner or later she is going to cross the line ... draw another line, only to toe it for awhile until she cross that line too and before she knows it she's 20 miles down the wrong path. There is a song that I love called Slow Fade. Here are a couple of verses "It's a slow fade when black and white have turned to gray" and another "People never crumble in a day. It's a slow fade."

I enjoy the conflict between Helen and Will at times - I know they both respect one another and will work it out. Perhaps Helen chose Will because he reminds her of herself when her journey first started. She had certain convictions that slowly faded with time and experience. He is not just going to blindly follow her and I think that's good for both of them. It allows her to be the flawed hero.

Dinoman
December 5th, 2010, 07:42 AM
I may have missed this but did they explain why Adam left the underground city in the 1st place (since he was rescued and being taken care by the people there after he was shot)?

suse
December 5th, 2010, 07:47 AM
I think the "no secrets" thing was a nice reference to the pilot. I still think Helen and the rest of the Five had reason to track him down, Adam was going to try and kill so many people. Again, had they no agreed to track him down, many people would have been killed. :indeed: However I still disagree that she has to tell him everything. It was 100 years ago, she *didn't* kill the man, he jumped, what was to tell? The fact that The Five were forced to track him down? Yes, they got rewarded, but they also would have been punished for *not* doing it. She had no way of knowing Adam wasn't dead and that chapter of her life was long since over.




I'm still waiting for him to redeem himself after the beating he gave Helen, a beating she gave right back to him. ;) I want to see Adam fight John. :p


Adam might redeem himself. Hyde? No.



As long as they have Helen's best interest at heart, I'm OK with it. I don't believe anyone of them would do that to Helen, unless it was for a really good reason, like in this case, to save her life. I just hope we see that next week, with them telling her they only want to save her life. And yeah, NO one wants Helen to die. :(

I mean, if it meant saving Helen's life, would you do what Tesla did? Yeah you. :p
True. I still hope for some nice character fallout. :)




I thought it was weird of the PM to tell her it was odd she's a scientist because she's a woman, but I'm glad she told him to address her as "Doctor" a bit later. ;) It wasn't weird in the late 1800s/early 1900s. :lol: It wasn't weird in the 1950s!

;) The doctor bit reminded me of Sam telling Jack to refer to her with her rank.


I saw that they weren't really happy with the job they were forced to do, and I'm glad Helen made it clear that they're not assassins, and they're not. After the saw what Adam was planning to do, they had to stop him, and another thing I liked was that, Helen did not kill Adam like we were made to believe last week, she wanted him to live, but Adam had other plans. "Well, most of us" [aren't assassins]. I :lol: at that reference to John.

suse
December 5th, 2010, 08:03 AM
the biggest reason i think will was arguing with helen is that he recognized her trauma. he knows what ptsd looks like, knows that she was damn scared and reacting primally in that ware house, and he knows her emotions are clouding her judgment. Just like he knows how to manipulate Adam and recognizes Adam for what he is.

Will was calling her on it, just like she'd told him to do last season or so.

Helen is in such an autonomous position, she really needs people to call her on stuff, needs people to question her. And i think she trusts will to do it not to tear her down, but to build her up.

I still don't see how he came to the conclusion that the Sanctuary was built on the blood of a dead man by what he was told. But then, we don't know exactly what words Helen used, we saw it. I can see questioning. What he did was a verbal attack.

suse
December 5th, 2010, 08:13 AM
adam wanted it. And i can see Hyde, mister unquenchable thirst for violence, considering the death of a young girl to be a small price to pay to get the source blood.

adam was, to me, obsessed with being part of the five.

I think, hyde tried to use immogene to get adam into the five. then it failed and adam found out what hyde had done, but, of course, it's not hyde or adam's fault, it's everyone else's for not doing what they wanted done.

then comes 100 years of time for revenge to brew

Yup.

suse
December 5th, 2010, 08:16 AM
Yes, I know it's not a disease. I couldn't think of the appropriate term, so I just used the word "disease"; it was simply the wrong choice of words. And my point is still, why is it that Helen's condition is as advanced as Adam's when she was only exposed once, compared to the numerous more times he's been exposed.

He was much, much more covered. Helen did cover her face, but it was a very thin/transparent piece of material. He had a thick gas mask.

jckfan55
December 5th, 2010, 08:20 AM
I still don't see how he came to the conclusion that the Sanctuary was built on the blood of a dead man by what he was told. But then, we don't know exactly what words Helen used, we saw it. I can see questioning. What he did was a verbal attack.

Yeah, Will got awfully self righteous. When Helen told him no secrets at the beginning, I don't think that meant every detail of her life. And he seems to jump to the worst conclusion.You'd think he'd give Magnus the benefit of the doubt. But then again as Magnus says at the beginning of the ep "I'm 159 years old. you've known me for three." I don't think it was accidental at all that the confrontation btw Magnus & Adam was on that cliff. Based on what we know about him, I wouldn't be surprised if intended all along to go off the cliff but wanted Helen to shoot him in order to mess with her mind.

I do like that we find out how the government support for the work started. I'm sure more will be revealed next week.

jckfan55
December 5th, 2010, 08:23 AM
He was much, much more covered. Helen did cover her face, but it was a very thin/transparent piece of material. He had a thick gas mask.

:indeed: did his outfit remind anyone else of the zombies from Pavor?

suse
December 5th, 2010, 08:25 AM
I think there's likely a degree of jealousy on Tesla's part in relation to Adam, in that he seems to have a mastery over the technology and the Hollow Earth map that has given Tesla so much trouble. I also wonder if Adam wasn't in some part responsible for founding the Cabal, the PM did mention that he'd been able to infiltrate many levels of government.

The Cabal was around for a really long time. As in Middle Ages. Unless I'm remembering the webbies. :S




I can see Biggie being off on a mission, but Kate was with Helen and Will and the end of Breach, so it was quite jarring, to me at least, to see her just disappear in this episode with no explanation. At the least I think she should have been with Helen and Will as they were wheeling Adam in.

Totally forgot she was right there. :o Perhaps she stayed at the site til the rest of the containment people arrived. And then was assigned other tasks. I don't mind Kate, but there was enough going on.

That's an interesting theory. I had thought his mental break didn't happen until Imogen's death, since DID is often caused by a extremely stressful or traumatic event, but there were hints of the Hyde persona earlier so I can see him subtly taking over for short periods and poisoning her.
I thought multiple personalities happened due to extreme trauma at a young age. Hyde (or another personality) would have had to have been there. I got the impression Will was saying that Immogene's death caused the DID. :S

Hmm, I'm not sure if he'd been in the city before that, but I think he did know about it and that's why he let himself fall off the cliff. I do think since he got kicked out he's been manipulating things to get back in, including poisoning Helen to give her more motivation to find Hollow Earth.

Agreed.

suse
December 5th, 2010, 08:31 AM
i did get a bit irked at will for having such a sanctimonious attitude about it. whether adam had mental probs or not, he WAS doing very bad stuff and needed to be stopped.

Thank you, Sally! That's the word I was looking for.

suse
December 5th, 2010, 08:32 AM
1. Well, it was probably due to hypothermia. Chances are, he was on the verge of death, but not totally dead due to the temperature of the water. Assuming it was cold, that is. ;)

:lol: He was only mostly dead? And he went to see Miracle Max?

ETA: GMTA, Sky!

yep. no miracle max needed



Geez, I need to watch that movie again.

suse
:D:D:D

suse
December 5th, 2010, 08:41 AM
I was thinking it was very far advanced because of when Tesla handed Will a file with test results, and it said it had spread to the lymph nodes/organs, and the spine. That's pretty far advanced for just a few days time. Unless it has something to do with whatever type of radiation it is. Helen did say something about it being the kind of radiation the human body should never be exposed to or some such thing. Not that there's any kind the human body should be exposed to. But she made it sound like something worse that "normal" kinds of radiation.

Plus, it looks from the previews that Adam is still on his feet. And if he's going to "lead" them anywhere, he's going to need to be on his feet quite a bit.

I'm a bit confused as to the time frame. How would they know it has advanced to Helen's spine? She's have known they did tests and I got the idea that she was in Thailand most of the time.

Adam was in bed because Helen handed him his butt by impaling him. And then he had abdominal surgery. (Helen did it with no assistance? :S)

suse
December 5th, 2010, 08:46 AM
Forgot to mentioned how much I loved watching Druitt tower over Adam all the way out the door lol

I :lol: at that too.

hedwig
December 5th, 2010, 08:49 AM
Originally Posted by kes
Forgot to mentioned how much I loved watching Druitt tower over Adam all the way out the door lol


I think pretty much everybody towered over Adam. :) And John pretty much towers over everybody else. :)


I may have missed this but did they explain why Adam left the underground city in the 1st place (since he was rescued and being taken care by the people there after he was shot)?

I could be wrong, but I think he said he got himself kicked out of Hollow Earth, but he didn't say why. If he actually was there, he likely started abusing his welcome, and they got fed up with him and threw him out.


I still don't see how he came to the conclusion that the Sanctuary was built on the blood of a dead man by what he was told. But then, we don't know exactly what words Helen used, we saw it. I can see questioning. What he did was a verbal attack.

Something the minister said about how if they went after Adam, the crown would support Helen's and the Sanctuary's work. So, since Adam was supposedly dead, the "crown" likely gave her money to continue her work. And she must have invested it very wisely to have "more money than God" by now. :)


Based on what we know about him, I wouldn't be surprised if intended all along to go off the cliff but wanted Helen to shoot him in order to mess with her mind.

Here's another thought about that. How come John was in the river with Adam? Was he waiting down there for him to jump/fall/dive in? Helen told Adam the others were nearby. Did John come upon the scene and jump in after him? Seemed a bit strange to me that John was even in the water just at the right moment to be holding Adam.

suse
December 5th, 2010, 08:50 AM
:indeed: did his outfit remind anyone else of the zombies from Pavor?

Yes, a bit. Old, much reused material to cover . Pavor had horrible weather (for good reason).

Skydiver
December 5th, 2010, 08:53 AM
I may have missed this but did they explain why Adam left the underground city in the 1st place (since he was rescued and being taken care by the people there after he was shot)?

adam said

Adam: NO! NO! (He changes from Jekyll to Hyde) It was Just an idea. I was not sure that it would work. I learned so much before they shut us away.

Implying that they had free run of the city, until they crossed some line and got kicked out, or locked away and then escaped, but i'm thinking kicked out and evicted.



I still don't see how he came to the conclusion that the Sanctuary was built on the blood of a dead man by what he was told. But then, we don't know exactly what words Helen used, we saw it. I can see questioning. What he did was a verbal attack.

I believe he came to that conclusion after she told him about being 'hired' to hunt him down, in exchange for pardons and the unofficial sanction of the sanctuary. Adam's life bought those concessions/benefits. hence 'built on the blood of a dead man'


Yeah, Will got awfully self righteous. When Helen told him no secrets at the beginning, I don't think that meant every detail of her life. And he seems to jump to the worst conclusion.You'd think he'd give Magnus the benefit of the doubt. But then again as Magnus says at the beginning of the ep "I'm 159 years old. you've known me for three." I don't think it was accidental at all that the confrontation btw Magnus & Adam was on that cliff. Based on what we know about him, I wouldn't be surprised if intended all along to go off the cliff but wanted Helen to shoot him in order to mess with her mind.


Or, he knew he'd never be allowed in as a normal mortal, but he was willing to bet his live on a 'good Samaritan' feeling from the city dwellers. They'd never allow him in alive, but might out of curiosity, especially when he's harmlessly mostly dead.



I thought multiple personalities happened due to extreme trauma at a young age. Hyde (or another personality) would have had to have been there. I got the impression Will was saying that Immogene's death caused the DID. :S


I was under the impression that any traumatic event could trigger it. Anything horrible enough for the mind to break and say 'no, that didn't happen to me' and another personality emerges. But no psychologist :)

ann_sgcfan
December 5th, 2010, 08:54 AM
lol Suse - As I said on IM we will have to agree to disagree regarding Will... for me if Will wasn't there to call Helen on her actions - then it would be far less entertaining ... it would be a woman doing whatever she pleases without consequences, because we already know she keeps things hidden from the sanct. council. It's a little harder to keep things hidden from someone in the same building. I had the same reaction as Will, so call me whatever you want, but I for one was glad he called her on it. For me the conflict will strengthen both characters.

Their conflicts makes it more entertaining for me, as I can see it's not for others ... that's fine - we all watch for different reasons.

suse
December 5th, 2010, 08:56 AM
I think pretty much everybody towered over Adam. :) And John pretty much towers over everybody else. :) I can relate! :P


I could be wrong, but I think he said he got himself kicked out of Hollow Earth, but he didn't say why. If he actually was there, he likely started abusing his welcome, and they got fed up with him and threw him out.
Exactly.


Something the minister said about how if they went after Adam, the crown would support Helen's and the Sanctuary's work. So, since Adam was supposedly dead, the "crown" likely gave her money to continue her work. And she must have invested it very wisely to have "more money than God" by now. :)


True, but it's not as if she chose to go after the man to get the money for the Sanctuary. Nice bonus, but he was a nutjob who - at least once - was moments away from killing thousands by releasing a toxin . And she knew he had been working on a toxin even in Oxford.

Here's another thought about that. How come John was in the river with Adam? Was he waiting down there for him to jump/fall/dive in? Helen told Adam the others were nearby. Did John come upon the scene and jump in after him? Seemed a bit strange to me that John was even in the water just at the right moment to be holding Adam.

You can see that he zorted in just as Adam hit the water. Helen had told Adam that the others were nearby.

suse
December 5th, 2010, 09:00 AM
lol Suse - As I said on IM we will have to agree to disagree regarding Will... for me if Will wasn't there to call Helen on her actions - then it would be far less entertaining ... it would be a woman doing whatever she pleases without consequences, because we already know she keeps things hidden from the sanct. council. It's a little harder to keep things hidden from someone in the same building. I had the same reaction as Will, so call me whatever you want, but I for one was glad he called her on it. For me the conflict will strengthen both characters.

Their conflicts makes it more entertaining for me, as I can see it's not for others ... that's fine - we all watch for different reasons.

I don't mind him calling her on her actions. I think he should. And he especially should have when she was going to to the surgery. ;)

I just think the comment about the Sanctuary being built on a dead man's blood was flat out wrong. It was jumping to conclusions based on assumptions. Especially as that was NOT what she said. Oh well, Will is a flawed human too. :lol:

Rocky89
December 5th, 2010, 09:01 AM
It could be that because of the cut on Helen's hand, it made her more susceptible. Plus Adam knew that just entering the rift was all he needed to make her sick.


He was much, much more covered. Helen did cover her face, but it was a very thin/transparent piece of material. He had a thick gas mask.

Hmm, those are some good points on why Helen may be as sick as she is. :)



They guy just found off that his boss and friend had kept a murder from him. I be a little ticked off too regardless if it was justified or not. And then their is the killing of Adam gave Magnus the money to start the Sanctuary network


:indeed: However I still disagree that she has to tell him everything. It was 100 years ago, she *didn't* kill the man, he jumped, what was to tell? The fact that The Five were forced to track him down? Yes, they got rewarded, but they also would have been punished for *not* doing it. She had no way of knowing Adam wasn't dead and that chapter of her life was long since over.

Yeah but we saw it wasn't a murder, Suse is right. :) They didn't track him down because they simply didn't like him, and the PM both blackmailed and bribed them, so they had to take it. And once they saw the machine Adam was going to use to kill many innocent people, I think that's when they really saw how dangerous he was. Helen knows she didn't actually kill him, she actually wanted to help the dude, but he threw himself off the cliff, so she didn't kill a dangerous man capable of murder, a dangerous man capable of murder tried to kill himself.


Adam might redeem himself. Hyde? No.

Maybe they'll find a way to rid Adam of his Hyde personality. Maybe find a device or something to keep Adam with them, and not Hyde. Kinda like The Tollen did with Skara in SG-1. :)


It wasn't weird in the late 1800s/early 1900s. :lol: It wasn't weird in the 1950s!

Hehe. :p


;) The doctor bit reminded me of Sam telling Jack to refer to her with her rank.

Hey, I kinda see that now, thanks. ;)


:indeed: did his outfit remind anyone else of the zombies from Pavor?

Not really, but his outfit reminded me a lot of the hazmat suits those hose guys had though. :(

hedwig
December 5th, 2010, 09:04 AM
True, but it's not as if she chose to go after the man to get the money for the Sanctuary. Nice bonus, but he was a nutjob who - at least once - was moments away from killing thousands by releasing a toxin . And she knew he had been working on a toxin even in Oxford.

Exactly. Which is one of the reasons I was annoyed with Will for making that comment. He should know Helen isn't/wasn't mercenary enough to do anything like that for the money. After three years, he should know better than that. And it's pretty insulting to Helen and her character to even suggest she is.


You can see that he zorted in just as Adam hit the water.

"Zorted". Great word! :D

Skydiver
December 5th, 2010, 09:10 AM
zort is what they call druitt's jumping. It came up in the commentaries i think. might even be in the script 'druitt zorts in' (i'm wondering if damain snagged it from comic books. I'm trying ot remember if Nightwalker, Nightcrawler (?) - the blue and red x-man...or maybe his 'sound effect' was 'bamf'

suse
December 5th, 2010, 09:12 AM
I believe he came to that conclusion after she told him about being 'hired' to hunt him down, in exchange for pardons and the unofficial sanction of the sanctuary. Adam's life bought those concessions/benefits. hence 'built on the blood of a dead man'
Which, again, she did not kill. And even if she would have, he was a proven maniac. :P At least a part of the time. Then again, so was Druitt. She *did* try kill him. Adams life might have bought those concessions, but *not* agreeing to do it would have not only brought no reward, it could have meant the death of thousands. And the king's displeasure. Things would have gotten very unpleasant for all of The Five.

Or, he knew he'd never be allowed in as a normal mortal, but he was willing to bet his live on a 'good Samaritan' feeling from the city dwellers. They'd never allow him in alive, but might out of curiosity, especially when he's harmlessly mostly dead.


Possibly.


I was under the impression that any traumatic event could trigger it. Anything horrible enough for the mind to break and say 'no, that didn't happen to me' and another personality emerges. But no psychologist :)
http://www.psychnam.com/pscyh101/schizophrenia-v-s-split-personality/
Let’s start by defining what DID is. As the name suggests, this disorder involves a person to dissociate. This means the person may forget who he or she is and wander off into the world. Typically that individual takes on a false identity during this time and this is where the name Split Personality comes in. In order to warrant a diagnosis, the individual has to switch personalities involuntarily. A switch like this usually happens within a matter of seconds and the person suffering from the disorder may even show talents and skills their other persons do not possess. Studies have shown that after a switch,different parts of the brain are even active than before a switch. This enables the patient to possess one skill when they are one person and have no insight into that trait when they are another. This disorder has a very early onset and usually occurs due to a traumatic experience in childhood, where the child splits its personality to protect itself from the traumatic event. All of this happens unconsciously.

ann_sgcfan
December 5th, 2010, 09:12 AM
I don't mind him calling her on her actions. I think he should. And he especially should have when she was going to to the surgery. ;)

I just think the comment about the Sanctuary being built on a dead man's blood was flat out wrong. It was jumping to conclusions based on assumptions. Especially as that was NOT what she said. Oh well, Will is a flawed human too. :lol:

See and given what we saw in the progression of the show ... I too thought Sanct. was built on the blood of a man ... of course by the end of the show we find out that's not the case ... but in the beginning yeah it looked like Helen killed Adam in cold blood, then slowly we find out the King ordered her to do it :O whoa she did it for money to build the sanctuary as it is today??? That's a huge thing to leave out! I think that's the progression DK meant for us to take.

Then slowly we find out the entire story and that's not the case. Maybe DK screwed up in the writing, and Will didn't see the story as we saw it ... but Will still voiced what I thought.. In season 1 we were introduced to the Sanct through Will's eyes so I tend to still believe as she tells us her backstory - she's telling it to Will.

Of course Will is flawed they all are. I don't think he is sanctimonious for voicing his objection based on what we knew at the time. LOL and yes we will have to agree to disagree on it. As I said before we all watch the show through different eyes. experiences, likes and dislikes. Nothing wrong with that ... :D

LadyGalaxyJ
December 5th, 2010, 09:17 AM
I cannot say enough how much I love that moment where Helen lays down with John. Hmmm...wonder if there is some secret in Hollow Earth that may help Druitt?!??!
I thought about that too... but I'm kind of afraid that the city will resolve everyone's problems. Helen is sick, Nikola wants to be a vampire again, and John has that creature inside of him. It would be too easy for the city to resolve everything. I don't think it will, but I know that I don't want it to. Those are more simple storylines (Tesla and Druitt), but they do make the characters what they are. I'd like those to stretch out more.


I agree. Helen is what 159 years old? Think about how much society has changed, how many wars, plagues and deaths have taken place in a century and a half. She has seen so much. Perhaps it has hardened her and that is why she prefers to do things on her own rather than tell anyone much less contact the sanctuary council.

Now her second in command so to speak is very by the books. He calls her own it when she crosses the line. She needs that, everyone does. If she doesn't have someone that holds her accountable ... then sooner or later she is going to cross the line ... draw another line, only to toe it for awhile until she cross that line too and before she knows it she's 20 miles down the wrong path. There is a song that I love called Slow Fade. Here are a couple of verses "It's a slow fade when black and white have turned to gray" and another "People never crumble in a day. It's a slow fade."

I enjoy the conflict between Helen and Will at times - I know they both respect one another and will work it out. Perhaps Helen chose Will because he reminds her of herself when her journey first started. She had certain convictions that slowly faded with time and experience. He is not just going to blindly follow her and I think that's good for both of them. It allows her to be the flawed hero.
Very well said! On the whole post too. :)

suse
December 5th, 2010, 09:20 AM
See and given what we saw in the progression of the show ... I too thought Sanct. was built on the blood of a man ... of course by the end of the show we find out that's not the case ... but in the beginning yeah it looked like Helen killed Adam in cold blood, then slowly we find out the King ordered her to do it :O whoa she did it for money to build the sanctuary as it is today??? That's a huge thing to leave out! I think that's the progression DK meant for us to take.

I'm sure that's what we were meant to think. But Helen flinched when she shot him. If it was cold- blooded, she could have just shot him in his back. I figured there was more to the story.


Then slowly we find out the entire story and that's not the case. Maybe DK screwed up in the writing, and Will didn't see the story as we saw it ... but Will still voiced what I thought.. In season 1 we were introduced to the Sanct through Will's eyes so I tend to still believe as she tells us her backstory - she's telling it to Will.

Of course Will is flawed they all are. I don't think he is sanctimonious for voicing his objection based on what we knew at the time. LOL and yes we will have to agree to disagree on it. As I said before we all watch the show through different eyes. experiences, likes and dislikes. Nothing wrong with that ... :D

It's a Tapping Tuesday question. :P That I'd bet wouldn't get answered.

Cheers!OT. Wow, someone's cooking. Time for lunch!


suse

MidwifeOnBoard
December 5th, 2010, 09:53 AM
Yeah, Will got awfully self righteous.

Maybe it's just me, but I think will frequently gets self-righteous. It's one of the things that irks me about him. ;)



:lol: He was only mostly dead? And he went to see Miracle Max?

ETA: GMTA, Sky!



Geez, I need to watch that movie again.

suse
:D:D:D

Heehee! That was so running through my head when I originally posted. It's been far too long since I've seen that movie.

EH-T
December 5th, 2010, 10:29 AM
:indeed: did his outfit remind anyone else of the zombies from Pavor?

Yup. Maybe a little recycling by the costume department? After all, it is a "green" show. :)


The Cabal was around for a really long time. As in Middle Ages. Unless I'm remembering the webbies. :S





Totally forgot she was right there. :o Perhaps she stayed at the site til the rest of the containment people arrived. And then was assigned other tasks. I don't mind Kate, but there was enough going on.

I thought multiple personalities happened due to extreme trauma at a young age. Hyde (or another personality) would have had to have been there. I got the impression Will was saying that Immogene's death caused the DID. :S


Agreed.

I believe you are right about the Cabal even in the TV version. It was the 3 witches story (used in both) that set that out.

As someone else mentioned, Kate remained at the site. No doubt she would be overseeing the containment operation in conjunction with the big guy.

The impression from what Will said was that the split personality did come out as a result of the death of Adam's daughter. However, Will may not know the whole story yet and we may learn more in future episodes about what caused the Hyde personality.


zort is what they call druitt's jumping. It came up in the commentaries i think. might even be in the script 'druitt zorts in' (i'm wondering if damain snagged it from comic books. I'm trying ot remember if Nightwalker, Nightcrawler (?) - the blue and red x-man...or maybe his 'sound effect' was 'bamf'

MW uses the term zort when directing to advise the other actors when John pops in or out. I'm not sure whether it is something he made up or if he got it from somewhere (like the comics).

jckfan55
December 5th, 2010, 10:49 AM
Maybe it's just me, but I think will frequently gets self-righteous. It's one of the things that irks me about him. ;)

It's not just you--I think so too. it's one of his flaws--though perhaps a function of his being a mere kid compared to Magnus.

I have no problem with Will challenging Magnus, but sometimes i feel like --oh will, if you only knew all the facts you wouldn't be so quick to judge. In this case I thought he'd press her for info not make some dramatic statement about founding the Sanctuary on the blood of a dead man

hedwig
December 5th, 2010, 10:59 AM
The impression from what Will said was that the split personality did come out as a result of the death of Adam's daughter. However, Will may not know the whole story yet and we may learn more in future episodes about what caused the Hyde personality.

I have noticed that Will often makes (sometimes very big) judgments/assumptions without having all (or even enough) of the facts. Like his "treatment" with the 3 women in Fata Morgana. He didn't have all the information, so he assumed he could use whatever his training was to counsel them, and he was sooooo far off the mark with them, it made him look rather ridiculous. Maybe more so because of where they were found, and him now knowing about the Sanctuary and the work it does. One would think he would start speculating in a bit different direction in his counseling given where he now lives and works.

With Adam, he only has a small portion of the facts, and he's already making really big judgments about Helen, the Sanctuary, the Five. Will seems to be easily led by some people and he falls easily for their stories, and is at times proven really wrong.

MidwifeOnBoard
December 5th, 2010, 11:04 AM
It's not just you--I think so too. it's one of his flaws--though perhaps a function of his being a mere kid compared to Magnus.

I have no problem with Will challenging Magnus, but sometimes i feel like --oh will, if you only knew all the facts you wouldn't be so quick to judge. In this case I thought he'd press her for info not make some dramatic statement about founding the Sanctuary on the blood of a dead man

Like Magnus said: "I'm 159 years old. You've known me for 3."


I have noticed that Will often makes (sometimes very big) judgments/assumptions without having all (or even enough) of the facts. Like his "treatment" with the 3 women in Fata Morgana. He didn't have all the information, so he assumed he could use whatever his training was to counsel them, and he was sooooo far off the mark with them, it made him look rather ridiculous. Maybe more so because of where they were found, and him now knowing about the Sanctuary and the work it does. One would think he would start speculating in a bit different direction in his counseling given where he now lives and works.

With Adam, he only has a small portion of the facts, and he's already making really big judgments about Helen, the Sanctuary, the Five. Will seems to be easily led by some people and he falls easily for their stories, and is at times proven really wrong.

Oh goodness, yes!

I also am trying to figure out if TPTB have decided whether Will is a psychiatrist or a psychologist? They've referred to him as both during the course of the series, and they are 2 very different things.

hedwig
December 5th, 2010, 11:12 AM
Oh goodness, yes!

I also am trying to figure out if TPTB have decided whether Will is a psychiatrist or a psychologist? They've referred to him as both during the course of the series, and they are 2 very different things.

I'm curious about that too. Except I didn't really think he was either one. He has some sort of special abilities at sorting out crime scenes and so forth; he notices things others miss. But I have never been clear as to exactly what sort of specialty he has. I'd lean more toward psychologist for some reason, though ... if either one of them. :)

(The detective in the first episode called Will a "forensic shrink", and Helen did address him as "Dr." Zimmerman several times.)

Maybe I'll avoid stripping more wallpaper off my walls today (and give my back and neck a rest:) - nearly done, though; thank goodness)) and go rewatch at least Season 1 of Sanctuary and see what is said there. :D

jasminaGo
December 5th, 2010, 11:35 AM
It's not just you--I think so too. it's one of his flaws--though perhaps a function of his being a mere kid compared to Magnus.

I have no problem with Will challenging Magnus, but sometimes i feel like --oh will, if you only knew all the facts you wouldn't be so quick to judge. In this case I thought he'd press her for info not make some dramatic statement about founding the Sanctuary on the blood of a dead man

I agree on that point.
But what annoyed me more was him knowing facts and ignoring them.

Will: He has a psychiatric disorder
Helen: We didn't understand the mind back then Will. We only knew he was a threat
Will: To the public or to your work?

This exchange happened only minutes after Helen told him about the toxin Adam was planing to release, and how close it was to killing thousands of innocent people. That's not a threat to the public? What would have happened if The Five didn't went after him after they removed the toxin. Adam would have retired to a cabin in the woods and started contemplating his life's choices?

I'm all for someone challenging Helen, it makes for a far more interesting show. But for me Will isn't capable of being that person of authority (as Hedwig pointed out) that can make me think 'hmmm... maybe he's right and Helen's wrong'. Any member of the Five, her father, Adam, the little old lady from Kali, heck even Bigfoot I'd buy, Will not so much.

kes
December 5th, 2010, 11:41 AM
I think pretty much everybody towered over Adam. :) And John pretty much towers over everybody else. :)





Yes, but I loved that it was him. Tesla moved to close the book why didnt he do it? Johnny was the musle of the group lol

MidwifeOnBoard
December 5th, 2010, 11:45 AM
I'm curious about that too. Except I didn't really think he was either one. He has some sort of special abilities at sorting out crime scenes and so forth; he notices things others miss. But I have never been clear as to exactly what sort of specialty he has. I'd lean more toward psychologist for some reason, though ... if either one of them. :)

(The detective in the first episode called Will a "forensic shrink", and Helen did address him as "Dr." Zimmerman several times.)

Maybe I'll avoid stripping more wallpaper off my walls today (and give my back and neck a rest:) - nearly done, though; thank goodness)) and go rewatch at least Season 1 of Sanctuary and see what is said there. :D

IIRC, at various times during the series he has been called both forensic psychiatrist and forensic psychologist, only to give me 'splodey brain. :P



I agree on that point.
But what annoyed me more was him knowing facts and ignoring them.

Will: He has a psychiatric disorder
Helen: We didn't understand the mind back then Will. We only knew he was a threat
Will: To the public or to your work?

This exchange happened only minutes after Helen told him about the toxin Adam was planing to release, and how close it was to killing thousands of innocent people. That's not a threat to the public? What would have happened if The Five didn't went after him after they removed the toxin. Adam would have retired to a cabin in the woods and started contemplating his life's choices?

I'm all for someone challenging Helen, it makes for a far more interesting show. But for me Will isn't capable of being that person of authority (as Hedwig pointed out) that can make me think 'hmmm... maybe he's right and Helen's wrong'. Any member of the Five, her father, Adam, the little old lady from Kali, heck even Bigfoot I'd buy, Will not so much.

Agree so much here. That's why my favorite line of the episode was Adam to Will: "Who told you you could play with men? You're a child!"

jasminaGo
December 5th, 2010, 11:49 AM
Agree so much here. That's why my favorite line of the episode was Adam to Will: "Who told you you could play with men? You're a child!"

Yes, that was a good one. I knew I loved Adam for a reason. :p

He really is a child, the only way I can describe the way he acted is to say that he threw a tantrum.

hedwig
December 5th, 2010, 11:59 AM
Yes, that was a good one. I knew I loved Adam for a reason. :p

He really is a child, the only way I can describe the way he acted is to say that he threw a tantrum.

Even though he's the "bad guy", I really like Adam. He's a great character - both sides of him. :) Actually, I don't like his behavior, but I like the character. :D

EvenstarSRV
December 5th, 2010, 12:06 PM
Yeah, Will got awfully self righteous. When Helen told him no secrets at the beginning, I don't think that meant every detail of her life. And he seems to jump to the worst conclusion.You'd think he'd give Magnus the benefit of the doubt. But then again as Magnus says at the beginning of the ep "I'm 159 years old. you've known me for three." I don't think it was accidental at all that the confrontation btw Magnus & Adam was on that cliff. Based on what we know about him, I wouldn't be surprised if intended all along to go off the cliff but wanted Helen to shoot him in order to mess with her mind.


I think with issue with Will is that he still sees most things in terms of black and white or right or wrong, he hasn't had the amount of experience living in the grayer areas of life as Helen has. He's also not too far removed from his history of working in law enforcement so he probably still mostly thinks in those linear lines concerning the rule of law, despite all the craziness he's seen since then. Helen's learned that the ends sometimes justify the means, while I think Will still struggles with that concept.

Also with Adam I think Will sees him as a sick patient more than a madman and so he had that knee-jerk reaction to the idea of Helen and the others hunting him down because of a mental condition. He seems to be applying modern standards of judging the actions of mental patients to what happened in the past, which I think makes sense for his character even though it does make him come across as rather self-righteous.

I think after Will's had to run the Sanctuary for the next little while he will likely come to better appreciate some of the decisions Helen's had to make, that sometimes doing the 'right' thing may often involve some rather questionable methods.

MidwifeOnBoard
December 5th, 2010, 12:21 PM
Yes, that was a good one. I knew I loved Adam for a reason. :p

He really is a child, the only way I can describe the way he acted is to say that he threw a tantrum.

:indeed:

Even though he's the "bad guy", I really like Adam. He's a great character - both sides of him. :) Actually, I don't like his behavior, but I like the character. :D

He's fabulous. So impressively done all around.


I think with issue with Will is that he still sees most things in terms of black and white or right or wrong, he hasn't had the amount of experience living in the grayer areas of life as Helen has. He's also not too far removed from his history of working in law enforcement so he probably still mostly thinks in those linear lines concerning the rule of law, despite all the craziness he's seen since then. Helen's learned that the ends sometimes justify the means, while I think Will still struggles with that concept.

Also with Adam I think Will sees him as a sick patient more than a madman and so he had that knee-jerk reaction to the idea of Helen and the others hunting him down because of a mental condition. He seems to be applying modern standards of judging the actions of mental patients to what happened in the past, which I think makes sense for his character even though it does make him come across as rather self-righteous.

I think after Will's had to run the Sanctuary for the next little while he will likely come to better appreciate some of the decisions Helen's had to make, that sometimes doing the 'right' thing may often involve some rather questionable methods.

I find the 'lack of life experience' argument about Will to be troublesome. If we figure that Will and the actor who plays him are around the same age, he's got sufficient life experience to be able to see shades of grey. Especially since his is supposed to be such a brilliant forensic psych-something. ;) Not to mention the fairly challenging upbringing we've been led to believe he had. I think his inability to go there is a character flaw. But JMHO of course! I know this is not how everyone sees it.

trekie
December 5th, 2010, 12:44 PM
This was a pretty awesome episode, the show is really stepping it up this season.

Druitt is back. I'm curious about his current mental state and how much his homicidal tendecies will affect his behavior in the next eps. The scene where Helen laid next to him was pretty poignant, it showed how vurnelable she felt at the moment.

I loved the flashbacks, it was really cool to see The Five at different stages in their endeavours - for some reason I thought there would be only flashbacks from the time they spent in Oxford - but my favorite had to be the one where they were hired to hunt down Adam. Whoever said it had a bit of a Leauge of Extraordinary Gentlemen vibe to it was right on the money. I liked that scene because it nicely showed the dynamics of the group and brought out each character's distinct personality, like their different attitude for the whole thing. Druitt seemd pretty amused while Tesla was clearly bored by the whole thing. And it finally felt like Watson was there, in the previous flashbacks he was more in the background, got overshadowed by the others. I guess it's understandable, they had a lot going on and they also had to establish Griffin.

The Tesla/Henry scenes were adorable. Henry is such a fanboy. We need a full episode where they team up.

After Tesla got busted about John, the expression on his face and the way he said "kinda" really amused me for some reason. Well, almost as much as the *loving* way he said "homocidal little b*stard" referencing Adam while he and Will were watching the surgery behind the glass.



It really made me wish for an ep that takes place entirely with the Five. That's my only problem with the episode. They could have done just a backstory on Adam and the Five rejecting him and then the chase for the mad man.

That would have been awesome. You know what, I would probably enjoy a show focused on the The Five set in Victorian times way more than the current one. But to be fair I'm not all that fond of the regular characters, so...


I enjoy the conflict between Helen and Will at times - I know they both respect one another and will work it out. Perhaps Helen chose Will because he reminds her of herself when her journey first started. She had certain convictions that slowly faded with time and experience. He is not just going to blindly follow her and I think that's good for both of them. It allows her to be the flawed hero.

I think internal conflict, a little dissension among the ranks could be a good thing if done properly. In Eulogy, Will called out Helen justifiably while both of them acted rationally - well, Helen didn't but that was both the point and fair considering the circumstances. In this week's episode Will was self-rightous without enough cause, so as others have mentioned it earlier, it felt like more of a manufactured situation, not a genuine one. I think it damaged Will's character in the process which is why I don't think it was used particularly well here. Contrary to all that I personally did enjoy the conflict but that's just because I never liked Will to begin with.


Kate should go away on missions more often (wish Will had went with her, altho' I understand why he was around. His presence was saved with the male concubine comment :p)

You are preaching to the choir on the Kate front and while I'm usually not one to enjoy Will I strangely liked him in this.


I really dislike Adam. In a good way, mind you. I like the fact that I don't like him. (If that makes sense. ;P)

I totally get that, in a way I think he's the best villain in the show so far. He's engaging enough to watch but at the same time I don't like him enough to be dissapointed if/when they kill him off - which is the case with other shady recurrigs like Druitt and Tesla.


As much as I do believe Tesla wants to help save Helen, I think he would be very happy to find Hollow Earth and the secret to Adam's longevity, access to all that superior technology, etc. It would be too much to hope they'd know of some way he could become a vampire again - since there were safeguards in place to keep vampires from finding the city.

I totally agree. He wants to help Helen and get his hands on some advanced tech, it's really not like he's at cross-purposes there. And you know what? If one of that is an underlying motive then it's definitely the saving Helen part, because he flat out tells Will that he's more concerned about not learning the city's secrets than Helen dying.

Skydiver
December 5th, 2010, 12:48 PM
i had an idea about adam....in the flashback they were talking about adam, and the experiment he did with Dormice, his 'monograph on forced tissue regeneration' and that the dormice grew two heads....what if adam's split personality is a result of his experiments?

remember teh Trek eps, where we have good kirk and bad kirk? What if it was just the opposite, instead of 2 personalities in 2 bodies, adam split himself into 2 personalities in one body. and if he was a self created abnormal it could support his idea that he belonged with the sanctuary crew and needed to be part of them, because he was special just like they were

hedwig
December 5th, 2010, 12:51 PM
i had an idea about adam....in the flashback they were talking about adam, and the experiment he did with Dormice, his 'monograph on forced tissue regeneration' and that the dormice grew two heads....what if adam's split personality is a result of his experiments?

remember teh Trek eps, where we have good kirk and bad kirk? What if it was just the opposite, instead of 2 personalities in 2 bodies, adam split himself into 2 personalities in one body. and if he was a self created abnormal it could support his idea that he belonged with the sanctuary crew and needed to be part of them, because he was special just like they were

Wow! Interesting thought. Whatever he did to the mice, maybe he used it on himself too?

Skydiver
December 5th, 2010, 12:53 PM
I think will just doesn't 'get' that 100 years ago, heck even 50 years ago, psychiatric treatment was primitive at best. wasn't much prozac and valium around ;) (valium might have been)

the thing is, there's only so much they could have done treatment wise back then. the usual treatment for severe psychosis was to just lock them up.

suse
December 5th, 2010, 01:06 PM
Wow! Interesting thought. Whatever he did to the mice, maybe he used it on himself too?

Possible. Heaven only knows what he was playing with. Genius + ego = :eek:

majorsal
December 5th, 2010, 01:21 PM
I still don't see how he came to the conclusion that the Sanctuary was built on the blood of a dead man by what he was told. But then, we don't know exactly what words Helen used, we saw it. I can see questioning. What he did was a verbal attack.

to be honest, i don't know why will got so mad either. maybe b/c adam was mentally ill, that this hit will, the psychiatrist, so angrily, but...

i also don't see the sanctuary being built by this one deed. yes, the money helped a *lot*, but it was already created and surviving, so...

Skydiver
December 5th, 2010, 01:27 PM
I don't think will was mean or anything. He was seeing a friend of his, who just got beaten up by this nut, and then he finds out that she's kept this massive part of her past from him....and i'm sure he was stinging from her snapping at him earlier...both of their emotions were raw.

and that's all it is on both parts, fear turning into anger

majorsal
December 5th, 2010, 01:31 PM
lol Suse - As I said on IM we will have to agree to disagree regarding Will... for me if Will wasn't there to call Helen on her actions - then it would be far less entertaining ... it would be a woman doing whatever she pleases without consequences, because we already know she keeps things hidden from the sanct. council. It's a little harder to keep things hidden from someone in the same building. I had the same reaction as Will, so call me whatever you want, but I for one was glad he called her on it. For me the conflict will strengthen both characters.

Their conflicts makes it more entertaining for me, as I can see it's not for others ... that's fine - we all watch for different reasons.

as much as i automatically stick up for helen (:p), i kind of like the flaws and off-whiteness of her. :p

i also like will (or anyone) calling helen out on her mistakes, but in this instance, i really didn't see what will was getting so mad about. unless, like i said in a previous post, he felt a bit defensive *for* adam, b/c of his mental illness.

majorsal
December 5th, 2010, 01:41 PM
Even though he's the "bad guy", I really like Adam. He's a great character - both sides of him. :) Actually, I don't like his behavior, but I like the character. :D

the series has a wonderful knack for finding outstanding guest stars for their show! ;)

suse
December 5th, 2010, 01:44 PM
Also with Adam I think Will sees him as a sick patient more than a madman and so he had that knee-jerk reaction to the idea of Helen and the others hunting him down because of a mental condition. He seems to be applying modern standards of judging the actions of mental patients to what happened in the past, which I think makes sense for his character even though it does make him come across as rather self-righteous. Which is why Helen pointed out that they knew less about the brain and mental health issues back then. He flat out doesn't have the historical perspective she does. He's definitely a product of the late 20th century.


I think after Will's had to run the Sanctuary for the next little while he will likely come to better appreciate some of the decisions Helen's had to make, that sometimes doing the 'right' thing may often involve some rather questionable methods.

Oh, I hope so.

suse
December 5th, 2010, 01:49 PM
I don't think will was mean or anything. He was seeing a friend of his, who just got beaten up by this nut, and then he finds out that she's kept this massive part of her past from him....d i'm sure he was stinging from her snapping at him earlier...both of their emotions were raw.

and that's all it is on both parts, fear turning into anger

*That* I can use.

:P It's better than seeing the scene and going :beckettanime14:

I can't agree with what he said and thought it was an over the top/unwarranted response, but if it was just raw emotion... I can deal. ;)

majorsal
December 5th, 2010, 01:56 PM
if adam's split personality came out, as will said, b/d of his daughter dying, then what did helen (and prob the others) feel was off about adam?

for some reason, i feel adam was already mr splitty, but the stresses of everything going on then finally put him over the edge. but i could be wrong, but that only happens when i'm not right. :S

majorsal
December 5th, 2010, 01:58 PM
I don't think will was mean or anything. He was seeing a friend of his, who just got beaten up by this nut, and then he finds out that she's kept this massive part of her past from him....and i'm sure he was stinging from her snapping at him earlier...both of their emotions were raw.

and that's all it is on both parts, fear turning into anger

*nods* ;)

hedwig
December 5th, 2010, 02:58 PM
if adam's split personality came out, as will said, b/d of his daughter dying, then what did helen (and prob the others) feel was off about adam?

for some reason, i feel adam was already mr splitty, but the stresses of everything going on then finally put him over the edge. but i could be wrong, but that only happens when i'm not right. :S

I think this is just another one of those times where Will jumps to a conclusion without having a complete picture of events that could have led up to the split personality. Adam told him one little tidbit (well, not so little) about his life, and Will leaped to the conclusion it was the cause of the split.

I would think the split had already happened many years prior to his daughter dying. There's no wife mentioned anywhere in this episode. Maybe the split personality had something to do with her; or it had something to do with an event even earlier in Adam's life.

When Helen came to Adam while he was writing a formula on a wall, Helen saw it and asked if it was some sort of toxic formula (don't recall her exact words). She recognized what it was immediately, even if she didn't foresee what he might do with it. That's an odd thing to be chalking on the wall of a university, where anybody could see it. I'm sure there were many more times when he did something all of The 5 thought were "off" about Adam. And his daughter died quite sometime after this incident.

ann_sgcfan
December 5th, 2010, 03:32 PM
I think this is just another one of those times where Will jumps to a conclusion without having a complete picture of events that could have led up to the split personality. Adam told him one little tidbit (well, not so little) about his life, and Will leaped to the conclusion it was the cause of the split.


I think Adam was always a little off, but losing his daughter may very well have been the triggering event that pushed him over the edge. There has to be some event that triggers the split personality, and that seems reasonable to me.

I don't think we automatically assume Will is wrong about everything, unless DK is a very poor writer. Will is supposed to be a doc of the mind that Helen sought out to join her team. He should be able to make an initial diagnosis, Helen certainly seems to trust him to do that job. He hasn't started treating Adam, so I see no problem with the initial diagnosis. How many times do doctors in any field think it's one thing initially and by doing further testing discover it's something else or discover they were right all along.

prsweety
December 5th, 2010, 03:56 PM
OMG what a EPPY....this was awesome....awesome......and of course as a shipper i am so glad (i thin i read somewhere it was AT's decesion) that Helen laid down beside John. We just finished seeing kick ass Helen, only to see her as a woman now needing to be held by her lover, who she knows she can't have ...ahhh the angst.....they are killing us and i'm loving it..... Amanda Tapping is brilliant...a MASTER at her craft.

kes
December 5th, 2010, 03:57 PM
i had an idea about adam....in the flashback they were talking about adam, and the experiment he did with Dormice, his 'monograph on forced tissue regeneration' and that the dormice grew two heads....what if adam's split personality is a result of his experiments?

remember teh Trek eps, where we have good kirk and bad kirk? What if it was just the opposite, instead of 2 personalities in 2 bodies, adam split himself into 2 personalities in one body. and if he was a self created abnormal it could support his idea that he belonged with the sanctuary crew and needed to be part of them, because he was special just like they were

Its a good theory. They also mention a he burned down a lab. So maybe it is something like that. We'll see :D
Well it 2m into Monday for me ;)

Skydiver
December 5th, 2010, 04:03 PM
how I look at will....well who else was going to play the devil's advocate in this one?
adam? - nah
Tesla? - no, he's on helen's side about what happened because he was there
Henry? - no, henry is devoted to the doc and is frankly ticked off at this adam dude for hurting her.
Biggie? - maybe, but, likely out of kindness to chris, biggie was absent
Kate? - maybe, but she wasn't there
Druitt? - also on helen's side

Will was literally the only person there that could have questioned what happened 100 years ago.

Someone had to do it, and will was the only one that could have.
Just like, to a point, tesla and helen were the only ones that could have narrated the flashbacks, because they were the only surviving witnesses.

I can sympathize with Will's horror. What happened was akin to..oh the conspiracy theories that abound about WWII and that there was a case when, thanks to cracking enigma, the allies knew an attack was coming to a certain place, but they didn't react, because had they reacted and stopped it, then the germans would have known the enigma had been broken and would have changed codes, so a few were sacrificed so the germans would keep using the enigma machine.

I think also, the situation with Adam got out of hand. what started out as a simple 'stop the bad guy' turned into something personal. it just spiraled out of control

jelgate
December 5th, 2010, 04:53 PM
as much as i automatically stick up for helen (:p), i kind of like the flaws and off-whiteness of her. :p

i also like will (or anyone) calling helen out on her mistakes, but in this instance, i really didn't see what will was getting so mad about. unless, like i said in a previous post, he felt a bit defensive *for* adam, b/c of his mental illness.

I don't think it was so much the killing as Adam was going to commit mass murder but the secret that she kept from Will. One could argue that Helen has the right to her privacy. But an event so crucial to the development to the Sanctuary network and ultimaltel his job is enough to be ticked off. Thats a pretty big secret to keep from your employee

MidwifeOnBoard
December 5th, 2010, 05:10 PM
1. Druitt is back. I'm curious about his current mental state and how much his homicidal tendecies will affect his behavior in the next eps. The scene where Helen laid next to him was pretty poignant, it showed how vurnelable she felt at the moment.

2. The Tesla/Henry scenes were adorable. Henry is such a fanboy. We need a full episode where they team up.



1. I hope hope hope they don't do anything to exorcise Druitt's demon in Hollow Earth. Homicidal Druitt battling with the inner demon is so much more interesting.

2. Love that they are both such geeks. :)



I can sympathize with Will's horror. What happened was akin to..oh the conspiracy theories that abound about WWII and that there was a case when, thanks to cracking enigma, the allies knew an attack was coming to a certain place, but they didn't react, because had they reacted and stopped it, then the germans would have known the enigma had been broken and would have changed codes, so a few were sacrificed so the germans would keep using the enigma machine.


Can you explain this more completely? I mean this in all sincerity. I am having trouble trying to reconcile the suspected murder of one person (and I understand that one person is the whole world to their loved ones) with the systemic slaughter of over 6 million. I'm sure that's not what you meant, but that's what I'm reading.

suse
December 5th, 2010, 05:54 PM
1. I hope hope hope they don't do anything to exorcise Druitt's demon in Hollow Earth. Homicidal Druitt battling with the inner demon is so much more interesting.

2. Love that they are both such geeks. :)

1) Oh, I agree. I don't really like him all hearts and flowers. It creeps me out.
2) :lol:




Can you explain this more completely? I mean this in all sincerity. I am having trouble trying to reconcile the suspected murder of one person (and I understand that one person is the whole world to their loved ones) with the systemic slaughter of over 6 million. I'm sure that's not what you meant, but that's what I'm reading.

No, this was one situation during the war. If the Allies had used the information and stopped what the Germans planned to do, the Germans would have changed the code and all the intel would have been lost. It was deemed more strategic to sacrifice for that battle and use the information gathered in a fashion that would turn the tide of the whole war not 'just' save a few people.

samcartersg1
December 5th, 2010, 06:01 PM
It occurred to me while rewatching this episode today that Helen must have been pregnant with Ashley during the flashback episodes when they were tracking Adam since John disappeared right after. I wonder how far along she was and how long after she found out?

MidwifeOnBoard
December 5th, 2010, 06:06 PM
1. Oh, I agree. I don't really like him all hearts and flowers. It creeps me out.


2. No, this was one situation during the war. If the Allies had used the information and stopped what the Germans planned to do, the Germans would have changed the code and all the intel would have been lost. It was deemed more strategic to sacrifice for that battle and use the information gathered in a fashion that would turn the tide of the whole war not 'just' save a few people.

1. LOL. :indeed:

2. Ah, I see. Thank you.

suse
December 5th, 2010, 06:07 PM
I don't think it was so much the killing as Adam was going to commit mass murder but the secret that she kept from Will. One could argue that Helen has the right to her privacy. But an event so crucial to the development to the Sanctuary network and ultimaltel his job is enough to be ticked off. Thats a pretty big secret to keep from your employee


She didn't kill him. He jumped. Upon rewatching,, that might not have been entirely clear to Will as she said she took actions that she deeply regrets to this day. But if we were shown it, she should have told Will it.

Well, perhaps none of us should be buying anything Mitsubishi as they used American POWs as forced labor. The same ones that were in the Bataan Death Marches. Where's the outrage? That was only 70 years ago, not 100...

jelgate
December 5th, 2010, 06:11 PM
She didn't kill him. He jumped. Upon rewatching,, that might not have been entirely clear to Will as she said she took actions that she deeply regrets to this day. But if we were shown it, she should have told Will it.

Well, perhaps none of us should be buying anything Mitsubishi as they used American POWs as forced labor. The same ones that were in the Bataan Death Marches. Where's the outrage? That was only 70 years ago, not 100...

Its really a sematic point as Helen had every intent of killing him if she had too. It was more about the secret then killing Adam

suse
December 5th, 2010, 06:14 PM
Its really a sematic point as Helen had every intent of killing him if she had too. It was more about the secret then killing Adam

It's the whole "if she had to" She didn't do it for money. It was in defence of innocents. And at that point, herself. She was willing to not kill him. More than.

Skydiver
December 5th, 2010, 06:15 PM
1)

No, this was one situation during the war. If the Allies had used the information and stopped what the Germans planned to do, the Germans would have changed the code and all the intel would have been lost. It was deemed more strategic to sacrifice for that battle and use the information gathered in a fashion that would turn the tide of the whole war not 'just' save a few people.

yeah. I can't remember what it was exactly. It's just if the allies warned the targeted people, had them change their course, evac the town, whatever, the germans would have known enigma had been cracked. So they - very reluctantly - sacrificed some lives for the greater good - which was the end of the war.

Skydiver
December 5th, 2010, 06:20 PM
an observation....as helen got older, her hair has gotten darker....symbolic maybe? as the years have gone on she's lost her 'innocence' (blond) and gets slowly and slowly darker

MidwifeOnBoard
December 5th, 2010, 06:24 PM
an observation....as helen got older, her hair has gotten darker....symbolic maybe? as the years have gone on she's lost her 'innocence' (blond) and gets slowly and slowly darker

AT mentioned in a couple of Tapping Tuesdays that Helen experimented with different hair colors during her life because only keeping one would have gotten boring or somesuch. :)

RealmOfX
December 5th, 2010, 06:24 PM
yeah. I can't remember what it was exactly. It's just if the allies warned the targeted people, had them change their course, evac the town, whatever, the germans would have known enigma had been cracked. So they - very reluctantly - sacrificed some lives for the greater good - which was the end of the war.

It was the bombing of Coventry. A claim was made, and published in a book, in the 1970's about what you are talking about but others in the Ultra Project have denied that they knew the location.

Rocky89
December 5th, 2010, 07:59 PM
It's not just you--I think so too. it's one of his flaws--though perhaps a function of his being a mere kid compared to Magnus.

I have no problem with Will challenging Magnus, but sometimes i feel like --oh will, if you only knew all the facts you wouldn't be so quick to judge. In this case I thought he'd press her for info not make some dramatic statement about founding the Sanctuary on the blood of a dead man


I have noticed that Will often makes (sometimes very big) judgments/assumptions without having all (or even enough) of the facts. Like his "treatment" with the 3 women in Fata Morgana. He didn't have all the information, so he assumed he could use whatever his training was to counsel them, and he was sooooo far off the mark with them, it made him look rather ridiculous. Maybe more so because of where they were found, and him now knowing about the Sanctuary and the work it does. One would think he would start speculating in a bit different direction in his counseling given where he now lives and works.

With Adam, he only has a small portion of the facts, and he's already making really big judgments about Helen, the Sanctuary, the Five. Will seems to be easily led by some people and he falls easily for their stories, and is at times proven really wrong.

Well said to you both, one example I can think of is in Folding Man, when he believed the guy that he was the good guy, and that he needed gold to live or something. :p Anyway, he believed him, and he ended up being captured and almost lead the team into a trap. I still like Will, but sometimes he needs all the facts.


i had an idea about adam....in the flashback they were talking about adam, and the experiment he did with Dormice, his 'monograph on forced tissue regeneration' and that the dormice grew two heads....what if adam's split personality is a result of his experiments?

remember teh Trek eps, where we have good kirk and bad kirk? What if it was just the opposite, instead of 2 personalities in 2 bodies, adam split himself into 2 personalities in one body. and if he was a self created abnormal it could support his idea that he belonged with the sanctuary crew and needed to be part of them, because he was special just like they were

Damn, you always come up with good ideas. :p


as much as i automatically stick up for helen (:p), i kind of like the flaws and off-whiteness of her. :p

i also like will (or anyone) calling helen out on her mistakes, but in this instance, i really didn't see what will was getting so mad about. unless, like i said in a previous post, he felt a bit defensive *for* adam, b/c of his mental illness.

Yeah, but he went back to Adam and got mad with him for leading him on about what happened. And yeah, I always automatically stick up for Helen. :p


if adam's split personality came out, as will said, b/d of his daughter dying, then what did helen (and prob the others) feel was off about adam?

for some reason, i feel adam was already mr splitty, but the stresses of everything going on then finally put him over the edge. but i could be wrong, but that only happens when i'm not right. :S

Well, at some point, I think it was Watson who said something about Adam starting a fire or something, so maybe around that time they thought he was a bit off. Also, maybe he had some weird ideas even they thought was odd.


OMG what a EPPY....this was awesome....awesome......and of course as a shipper i am so glad (i thin i read somewhere it was AT's decesion) that Helen laid down beside John. We just finished seeing kick ass Helen, only to see her as a woman now needing to be held by her lover, who she knows she can't have ...ahhh the angst.....they are killing us and i'm loving it..... Amanda Tapping is brilliant...a MASTER at her craft.

Amanda is the queen Enough said. ;)


how I look at will....well who else was going to play the devil's advocate in this one?
adam? - nah
Tesla? - no, he's on helen's side about what happened because he was there
Henry? - no, henry is devoted to the doc and is frankly ticked off at this adam dude for hurting her.
Biggie? - maybe, but, likely out of kindness to chris, biggie was absent
Kate? - maybe, but she wasn't there
Druitt? - also on helen's side

Good list. I believe they're all on Helen's side, and considering what they know about Adam, they don't trust him, but if they're going to save Helen's life, they may need Adam's help.


AT mentioned in a couple of Tapping Tuesdays that Helen experimented with different hair colors during her life because only keeping one would have gotten boring or somesuch. :)

I want to see Helen in the 1960 and 1970's. :p

sci-fied
December 5th, 2010, 08:00 PM
Was anyone else a little disappointed that cyanide was the toxin Adam intended to release in the city's gaslines? For someone supposedly so intelligent, I was certain he could do better than simple cyanide...

jelgate
December 5th, 2010, 09:12 PM
It's the whole "if she had to" She didn't do it for money. It was in defence of innocents. And at that point, herself. She was willing to not kill him. More than.
I doublt the guiding reason she shot Adam given all his cyanide but it would foolish to think the incentive the prime minster offered Helen wasn't a factor.

Chelle DB
December 6th, 2010, 01:36 AM
I was just wondering if Helen's condition is much more deteriorated like Adams not only because she went through the rift with him but also because she was stuck in the time bubble with him, plus the cut on her hand plus the zap from the device...maybe all three incidents sped up the process in her. While Will & Kate were trapped in the time bubble too, they were "frozen" while Helen was active within it. Maybe it all contributes to her rapid deterioration. Just a thought that came to me when I was so desperately trying to sleep last night. :)
Oh and as for Adam having something to do with Imogen's death, I'm kinda torn on that - maybe it was his dark side that harmed her but I get the impression that Adam back then wasn't as brutal as he is now.
And I like the idea that perhaps the Five, once they saw the poison that Adam was going to release, was what sealed the deal in destroying him rather than capturing & keeping him. He was just too big a risk.
And Helen, when she shot Adam, a non fatal shot, that just shows that she really doesn't like to kill anything or anyone. She really didn't want to do it. But then Adam took all that out of her hands. So Adam's technically wrong in saying that Helen killed him coz she didn't, he tossed himself over the cliff and in the end he survived anyway.
Might re-watch for fun. :)

dipsofjazz
December 6th, 2010, 03:08 AM
I was just wondering if Helen's condition is much more deteriorated like Adams not only because she went through the rift with him but also because she was stuck in the time bubble with him, plus the cut on her hand plus the zap from the device...maybe all three incidents sped up the process in her. While Will & Kate were trapped in the time bubble too, they were "frozen" while Helen was active within it. Maybe it all contributes to her rapid deterioration. Just a thought that came to me when I was so desperately trying to sleep last night. :)
Oh and as for Adam having something to do with Imogen's death, I'm kinda torn on that - maybe it was his dark side that harmed her but I get the impression that Adam back then wasn't as brutal as he is now.
And I like the idea that perhaps the Five, once they saw the poison that Adam was going to release, was what sealed the deal in destroying him rather than capturing & keeping him. He was just too big a risk.
And Helen, when she shot Adam, a non fatal shot, that just shows that she really doesn't like to kill anything or anyone. She really didn't want to do it. But then Adam took all that out of her hands. So Adam's technically wrong in saying that Helen killed him coz she didn't, he tossed himself over the cliff and in the end he survived anyway.
Might re-watch for fun. :)

Will and Kate weren't stuck in the time bubble. They were in 'normal' time, whereas Helen and Adam were in the bubble with time accelerated.

Skydiver
December 6th, 2010, 04:07 AM
I do agree that seeing that he was capable and willing to murder thousands for what? we never got a reason, certainly influenced their desire to stop him.

they stopped his plot, but he was long gone, so they had to hunt him down.

we're still missing a piece of the puzzle. why they hunted him down. Especially so far. This whole city, it's gotta be north america, south america or africa i think (that's where I think I saw the 3 caldera), so they chased him for tens of thousands of miles...in the 1800's, quite a feat, and likely a quest that took the better part of a year. Something had to really motivate them to devoting so much time to hunting him down.

MidwifeOnBoard
December 6th, 2010, 05:09 AM
I do agree that seeing that he was capable and willing to murder thousands for what? we never got a reason, certainly influenced their desire to stop him.

they stopped his plot, but he was long gone, so they had to hunt him down.

we're still missing a piece of the puzzle. why they hunted him down. Especially so far. This whole city, it's gotta be north america, south america or africa i think (that's where I think I saw the 3 caldera), so they chased him for tens of thousands of miles...in the 1800's, quite a feat, and likely a quest that took the better part of a year. Something had to really motivate them to devoting so much time to hunting him down.

Very, very good point.

trekie
December 6th, 2010, 05:12 AM
I can sympathize with Will's horror. What happened was akin to..oh the conspiracy theories that abound about WWII and that there was a case when, thanks to cracking enigma, the allies knew an attack was coming to a certain place, but they didn't react, because had they reacted and stopped it, then the germans would have known the enigma had been broken and would have changed codes, so a few were sacrificed so the germans would keep using the enigma machine.

In Sanctuary's alternate history Tesla cracked the enigma machine (per Animus) so maybe they were also involved in that practicular situation, just wait until over judgy Will hears about it. :P But more seriously that's a good real life analogy.


1. I hope hope hope they don't do anything to exorcise Druitt's demon in Hollow Earth. Homicidal Druitt battling with the inner demon is so much more interesting.

Oh, I totally agree. I would always prefer an evil flavoured Druitt with a hint of all consuming guilt thrown into the mix over an...
all hearts and flowers ...one. Just saying.;)


I doublt the guiding reason she shot Adam given all his cyanide but it would foolish to think the incentive the prime minster offered Helen wasn't a factor.

Well, they were practically blackmailed into helping, I would like to think it was more the threats against their work than the promises of riches that played a factor but either way I don't think they were gonna personally kill Adam before the cyanide incident, capture him, sure. And even after all that Helen wasn't overly into it and at that point I doubt it had anything to do with the PM's offers.

hisg1fans
December 6th, 2010, 07:33 AM
Watched this in a very painful and tired haze after playing 5 curling games in a two-day bonspiel. These are my thoughts between snoozing and groaning in pain.

- Loved seeing all 5 together.
- Also loved seeing the "old 5" and the "new 5" (one time the present day and the flashback exactly mimics each other) :) Will and Henry replace Griffin and Watson.
- Didn't miss Kate at all. Or bigfoot.
- Liked the show, but realize I missed a lot after reading these posts. Will watch again.


Yeah, Will got awfully self righteous. When Helen told him no secrets at the beginning, I don't think that meant every detail of her life. And he seems to jump to the worst conclusion.You'd think he'd give Magnus the benefit of the doubt. But then again as Magnus says at the beginning of the ep "I'm 159 years old. you've known me for three." I don't think it was accidental at all that the confrontation btw Magnus & Adam was on that cliff. Based on what we know about him, I wouldn't be surprised if intended all along to go off the cliff but wanted Helen to shoot him in order to mess with her mind.

I do like that we find out how the government support for the work started. I'm sure more will be revealed next week.

Loved this!!!!


:indeed: did his outfit remind anyone else of the zombies from Pavor?

Very much so.


See and given what we saw in the progression of the show ... I too thought Sanct. was built on the blood of a man ... of course by the end of the show we find out that's not the case ... but in the beginning yeah it looked like Helen killed Adam in cold blood, then slowly we find out the King ordered her to do it :O whoa she did it for money to build the sanctuary as it is today??? That's a huge thing to leave out! I think that's the progression DK meant for us to take.

Then slowly we find out the entire story and that's not the case. Maybe DK screwed up in the writing, and Will didn't see the story as we saw it ... but Will still voiced what I thought.. In season 1 we were introduced to the Sanct through Will's eyes so I tend to still believe as she tells us her backstory - she's telling it to Will.

Of course Will is flawed they all are. I don't think he is sanctimonious for voicing his objection based on what we knew at the time. LOL and yes we will have to agree to disagree on it. As I said before we all watch the show through different eyes. experiences, likes and dislikes. Nothing wrong with that ... :D

I've found Will to be very sanctimonius, even from the very beginning of the show. He needs a little tarnish on his perfectly innocent and golden halo.


Maybe it's just me, but I think will frequently gets self-righteous. It's one of the things that irks me about him. ;)

Me too.


Heehee! That was so running through my head when I originally posted. It's been far too long since I've seen that movie.

Me three ;) What is this movie and character (Miracle Max)?


to be honest, i don't know why will got so mad either. maybe b/c adam was mentally ill, that this hit will, the psychiatrist, so angrily, but...

i also don't see the sanctuary being built by this one deed. yes, the money helped a *lot*, but it was already created and surviving, so...

Agreed, IMHO the Sanctuary was already up and going (started by Daddy Magnus) and the offer of money came later. Maybe needed, maybe not (but I'm sure was a great help to Helen financially). I think the threat of being shut down had more to do with carrying out the task than the money.


She didn't kill him. He jumped. Upon rewatching,, that might not have been entirely clear to Will as she said she took actions that she deeply regrets to this day. But if we were shown it, she should have told Will it.

Well, perhaps none of us should be buying anything Mitsubishi as they used American POWs as forced labor. The same ones that were in the Bataan Death Marches. Where's the outrage? That was only 70 years ago, not 100...

That is why I don't buy anything from them. Bataan was one of the most evil things in a war full of evil things. But, I'm a student of history, so I know this. A lot of people don't. I also buy John Deere because they saved US agriculture, and thus many US communities, during the Great Depression.


an observation....as helen got older, her hair has gotten darker....symbolic maybe? as the years have gone on she's lost her 'innocence' (blond) and gets slowly and slowly darker

I've often wondered this too. I know about AT dying her hair, but the metaphor is there too :)


I do agree that seeing that he was capable and willing to murder thousands for what? we never got a reason, certainly influenced their desire to stop him.

they stopped his plot, but he was long gone, so they had to hunt him down.

we're still missing a piece of the puzzle. why they hunted him down. Especially so far. This whole city, it's gotta be north america, south america or africa i think (that's where I think I saw the 3 caldera), so they chased him for tens of thousands of miles...in the 1800's, quite a feat, and likely a quest that took the better part of a year. Something had to really motivate them to devoting so much time to hunting him down.

Do you suppose this man hunt was the basis for the book "Around the World in 80 Days" ? It fits with all of the other literary references we've seen.

Edit: I've also been wondering if the whole "inner earth" story was a reference to "Journey to the Center of the Earth".

jckfan55
December 6th, 2010, 08:28 AM
IIRC, at various times during the series he has been called both forensic psychiatrist and forensic psychologist, only to give me 'splodey brain. :P

LOL He called himself a psychiatrist in Veritas and early on he seemed to be a medical doctor so that would make him a psychiatrist. Perhaps some of the writers don't know the difference between a PhD & MD. :(

suse
December 6th, 2010, 08:53 AM
I doublt the guiding reason she shot Adam given all his cyanide but it would foolish to think the incentive the prime minster offered Helen wasn't a factor.

The bribe? Maybe. I'd think just as much would be the threats. Not John so much, she was already ready to kill him if necessary. Having your king cranky with you would *not* be a good thing. Though at least England had stopped beheading at that point. :P

suse
December 6th, 2010, 09:08 AM
- Loved seeing all 5 together.
- Also loved seeing the "old 5" and the "new 5" (one time the present day and the flashback exactly mimics each other) :) Will and Henry replace Griffin and Watson. Totally missed that! I remember the scenes, not that you mention it. :D

- Liked the show, but realize I missed a lot after reading these posts. Will watch again.
Yeah, I missed a lot too. Even on rewatch, need to watch again. Oh, the hardship :lol:

What is this movie and character (Miracle Max)?

The Princess Bride. Absolutely hilarious.

Anyone want a peanut?




Agreed, IMHO the Sanctuary was already up and going (started by Daddy Magnus) and the offer of money came later. Maybe needed, maybe not (but I'm sure was a great help to Helen financially). I think the threat of being shut down had more to do with carrying out the task than the money.


I certainly think that was implied. As I said, the king was willing to give the Sanctuary support as a reward for taking care of Adam - more precisely Adam's alter ego - but there is an implication that it could easily go the other way if she said no.


Do you suppose this man hunt was the basis for the book "Around the World in 80 Days" ? It fits with all of the other literary references we've seen.

Edit: I've also been wondering if the whole "inner earth" story was a reference to "Journey to the Center of the Earth".
Very possible.

meredithchandler73
December 6th, 2010, 11:17 AM
It occurred to me while rewatching this episode today that Helen must have been pregnant with Ashley during the flashback episodes when they were tracking Adam since John disappeared right after. I wonder how far along she was and how long after she found out?

Interesting. I gathered that the conversation in the Prime Minister's office took place a long while after Helen shot John. (Don't really know my English history. Were the Ripper murders during Queen Victoria's reign?) I had thought Helen hadn't seen John since she shot him until the gathering in the PM'd office and some time had passed. Not remembering John's hair/facial hair when he was shot but I do remember Helen was still wearing her hair down in masses of curls (gorgeous!!!) but when approached by Adam to cure his daughter and later to hunt him her hair was straight and worn up.

LadyGalaxyJ
December 6th, 2010, 11:29 AM
^ I've always belived that she found out she was pregnant not long after shooting him. She then froze the embryo. So technically, I don't think she was pregnant when she saw John again. Her baby was frozen though, so she must have thought about her again when they met to chase Adam.

hedwig
December 6th, 2010, 11:45 AM
It occurred to me while rewatching this episode today that Helen must have been pregnant with Ashley during the flashback episodes when they were tracking Adam since John disappeared right after. I wonder how far along she was and how long after she found out?

And how she had the knowledge and ability to remove the embryo at that time. As well as the ability to freeze it.

ddc
December 6th, 2010, 12:10 PM
Interesting. I gathered that the conversation in the Prime Minister's office took place a long while after Helen shot John. (Don't really know my English history. Were the Ripper murders during Queen Victoria's reign?) I had thought Helen hadn't seen John since she shot him until the gathering in the PM'd office and some time had passed. Not remembering John's hair/facial hair when he was shot but I do remember Helen was still wearing her hair down in masses of curls (gorgeous!!!) but when approached by Adam to cure his daughter and later to hunt him her hair was straight and worn up.

On when they met with the PM. It was sometime during Edward VII's reign; the PM mentioned Albert/Bertie. That era (1901-1910) is often referred to as the Edwardian Afternoon, basically the (apparently) calm period before WWI/Roaring 20s/Depression/ WWII.

Someone commented on why Will took over with Helen ill instead of Declan. This seems to be a case of the head of a particular Sanctuary being ill, the 2nd at that location becomes head of house. I guess Declan will be temporarily in charge of the overall network until Helen's cured.

majorsal
December 6th, 2010, 03:04 PM
Interesting. I gathered that the conversation in the Prime Minister's office took place a long while after Helen shot John. (Don't really know my English history. Were the Ripper murders during Queen Victoria's reign?) I had thought Helen hadn't seen John since she shot him until the gathering in the PM'd office and some time had passed. Not remembering John's hair/facial hair when he was shot but I do remember Helen was still wearing her hair down in masses of curls (gorgeous!!!) but when approached by Adam to cure his daughter and later to hunt him her hair was straight and worn up.

i think john had the scar on his face, from when helen shot/grazed him.

majorsal
December 6th, 2010, 03:06 PM
^ I've always belived that she found out she was pregnant not long after shooting him. She then froze the embryo. So technically, I don't think she was pregnant when she saw John again. Her baby was frozen though, so she must have thought about her again when they met to chase Adam.

just reading that... just think of all the great flashback we could see, if this series continues on (s4 and beyond)! :D

hedwig
December 6th, 2010, 03:23 PM
just reading that... just think of all the great flashback we could see, if this series continues on (s4 and beyond)! :D

What do you mean If????? How can you possibly doubt there will be an S4?????

I'm going to state for the record, right here, and right now ... there will definitely be a Season 4!!! And since I really don't like being made a fool of, then, of course, there will be a Season 4!

:p:D

majorsal
December 6th, 2010, 03:29 PM
what do you mean if????? How can you possibly doubt there will be an s4?????

I'm going to state for the record, right here, and right now ... There will definitely be a season 4!!! And since i really don't like being made a fool of, then, of course, there will be a season 4!

:p:d

okay!! :D

LadyGalaxyJ
December 6th, 2010, 03:40 PM
i think john had the scar on his face, from when helen shot/grazed him.
Yep, he had. So, every scene where he has a scar on his cheek is post-Helen shot him. ;)


just reading that... just think of all the great flashback we could see, if this series continues on (s4 and beyond)! :D
You honnestly think I haven't already thought about that? :rolleyes::P I'd love to see a flashback of The Five when they find out who is the Ripper. :)

And I agree with hedwig. No ifs. WHEN.

Skydiver
December 6th, 2010, 04:11 PM
the PM's conversation was after helen shot john. Helen shot him in 1888? isn't htat the last ripper murder? this was 10ish years later.

now, when adam bursts in to get them to help immogene, it's 10 years after oxford. so let's say that oxford was 1885ish, john went nuts and murdered in 1888, right around 1900 adam went bugnuts, and the PM called the Five in to cure hte problem.

I think, as far as the PM and the sanctuary was concerned....their 'deal with the devil' got them virtually unrestricted permission to continue their work. No more lurking in the shadows, no more slipping in and out, more of how we see things now, with the police actually calling the sanctuary in when they run across odd things.

they kinda went from being alqueda (as in secret group) to the NSA....still secret, but operating with plausibly denied permission

Skydiver
December 6th, 2010, 04:12 PM
What do you mean If????? How can you possibly doubt there will be an S4?????

I'm going to state for the record, right here, and right now ... there will definitely be a Season 4!!! And since I really don't like being made a fool of, then, of course, there will be a Season 4!

:p:D

I too am very optimistic. don't want to say a certainty cause i don't wanna jinx it, but i'll be very surprised if there isn't one

mjwalshe
December 6th, 2010, 04:16 PM
nope the cutting edge was a lobotomy and posibly electro shock.

mjwalshe
December 6th, 2010, 04:19 PM
Well said to you both, one example I can think of is in Folding Man, when he believed the guy that he was the good guy, and that he needed gold to live or something. :p Anyway, he believed him, and he ended up being captured and almost lead the team into a trap. I still like Will, but sometimes he needs all the facts.



Damn, you always come up with good ideas. :p



Yeah, but he went back to Adam and got mad with him for leading him on about what happened. And yeah, I always automatically stick up for Helen. :p



Well, at some point, I think it was Watson who said something about Adam starting a fire or something, so maybe around that time they thought he was a bit off. Also, maybe he had some weird ideas even they thought was odd.



Amanda is the queen Enough said. ;)



Good list. I believe they're all on Helen's side, and considering what they know about Adam, they don't trust him, but if they're going to save Helen's life, they may need Adam's help.



I want to see Helen in the 1960 and 1970's. :p

mm yes a swinging sixties flash back would be great - some of Helens outfits are a bit Emma Peel and Ashly's black leather defiantly was

majorsal
December 6th, 2010, 04:30 PM
mm yes a swinging sixties flash back would be great - some of Helens outfits are a bit Emma Peel and Ashly's black leather defiantly was

hippie helen, hanging with the beatles! :p

hedwig
December 6th, 2010, 05:09 PM
if adam's split personality came out, as will said, b/d of his daughter dying, then what did helen (and prob the others) feel was off about adam?

for some reason, i feel adam was already mr splitty, but the stresses of everything going on then finally put him over the edge. but i could be wrong, but that only happens when i'm not right. :S

There's a review in the "review" thread about "King & Country", and the reviewer has a line that says about Adam:


He’s the crazy engineer that even the mad scientists won’t talk to. Seriously, if people who willingly experiment on themselves with vampire blood won’t hang out with you, how crazy are you? I love Ian Tracey and he did a better job slipping into Jekyll mode this week.

Not that the reviewer knows when Adam split into two, but that quote suggests to me that it was quite sometime before the death of his daughter.

Or maybe the death of his daughter was simply the last "straw" in a long line of straws leading up to the split personality.

btw, the rest of that review is great. :D

prsweety
December 6th, 2010, 06:14 PM
And how she had the knowledge and ability to remove the embryo at that time. As well as the ability to freeze it. I so wondered this myself. Her reaction to when John walked into the room. She had to catch her footing (although there was a bad edit, because you see her hand behind her, amost grasping the table, but then you see her hands folded in front of her) but her reaction, definitely allows the viewer, well me to think, that pregnancy was already a factor, now when she froze it is another story, or should i say episode? God i loved this episode...it was amazing.

hedwig
December 6th, 2010, 06:22 PM
I so wondered this myself. Her reaction to when John walked into the room. She had to catch her footing (although there was a bad edit, because you see her hand behind her, amost grasping the table, but then you see her hands folded in front of her) but her reaction, definitely allows the viewer, well me to think, that pregnancy was already a factor, now when she froze it is another story, or should i say episode? God i loved this episode...it was amazing.

I assume the pregnancy occurred before she found out that John was Jack the Ripper; I totally can't see her being intimate with him after she found out. So the scene in her library with the PM had to be some years later, since she knew when John entered the room about his activities (plus, the PM confirmed it when he was talking to them). I do hope at some point they will explain (at least a little bit) how she managed to do this in the late 1800's.

suse
December 6th, 2010, 07:36 PM
http://sanctuaryforall.com/index.php

Sanctuary's story takes place in a world that is different from our own, yet feels familiar.

She had tech that wasn't available then in our world, just like she has tech that is not available now in our world.

Rocky89
December 6th, 2010, 08:05 PM
What do you mean If????? How can you possibly doubt there will be an S4?????

I'm going to state for the record, right here, and right now ... there will definitely be a Season 4!!! And since I really don't like being made a fool of, then, of course, there will be a Season 4!

:p:D


okay!! :D


You honnestly think I haven't already thought about that? :rolleyes::P I'd love to see a flashback of The Five when they find out who is the Ripper. :)

And I agree with hedwig. No ifs. WHEN.

:mckay: @ Sally for doubting a renewal.

:) @ Hedwig and LG for the good posts. :)

:p


I too am very optimistic. don't want to say a certainty cause i don't wanna jinx it, but i'll be very surprised if there isn't one

Well said, Sky. :) I was just reading the comments from- http://bit.ly/dX3crN and quite a few of them are hoping for a renewal. :)


hippie helen, hanging with the beatles! :p

I would like to see Helen in the 60's as a hippie. :p

atlantis_babe34
December 7th, 2010, 12:20 AM
i will say my review in key words


oh my god, amazing, Christopher Heyerdahl and shipper luff! <3

.... :D

Matt G
December 9th, 2010, 03:51 PM
1. Missed the first minute or so of this. First thing I saw was Tesla saying "two people...you're about to meet Jekyll and Hyde".

2. I can cut Will some slack on his atitude with Helen, let's face it, he probably has previous experience of supporting DIDs and I can see friends that have more regular dealings with DIDs than I do acting in similar fashion. Does DID excuse what Adam did though? Not sure.

3. Reckon the PM must have been Lloyd George - looked vaguely like pictures of him I remember from GCSE History.

4. Good to see John back.

5. So, Will runs the Sancturary now - this'll be interesting.

jckfan55
January 8th, 2011, 12:15 PM
I certainly think that was implied. As I said, the king was willing to give the Sanctuary support as a reward for taking care of Adam - more precisely Adam's alter ego - but there is an implication that it could easily go the other way if she said no.


She looked pretty intrigued by the idea of major financial support, so Helen's not totally pure. Though she also seemed to find the whole thing distasteful. But really, as you say, I think the PM/King had the Five over a barrel.

Skydiver
January 8th, 2011, 01:18 PM
i think it was a whole 'deal with the devil'....take down adam, who admittedly was being a bad boy, in exchange for the thousands they could help.

Feast of the Muse
April 20th, 2011, 12:48 AM
It occurred to me while rewatching this episode today that Helen must have been pregnant with Ashley during the flashback episodes when they were tracking Adam since John disappeared right after. I wonder how far along she was and how long after she found out?

I was thinking this as well, but connecting the idea to their walk on the bridge (where John says he'll write poetry, sonnets perhaps). I'm sure she asked him many times about stopping the killing, but the look on her face at the end of that conversation before he zorts off is just so...intense. I'd say she's pregnant and she knows it at that point, and it's killing her that John is not stable.

Which makes the current-day cuddle in this episode even more complex. When is the last time she was in his arms without a knife to her throat? You have to wonder, since they were not married, how progressive her views were back then. Obviously they are having sex, but given his madness and the time (wouldn't that have been scandalous, in that time/place, not being married?) I can't imagine that happened often. I think it's conceivable that the last time she got to curl up with him, she got pregnant with Ashley.

ETA: Ok, I mixed some things up. At the point they have that talk on the bridge, she'd probably already stored Ashley somewhere. He offers, "when this is all over, we'll start our dance anew." She says "Count on it" just as he leaves. She's clinging to hope that she can have a normal family life with him, and presumably, resume the pregnancy.

JanSam
April 20th, 2011, 05:26 AM
ETA: Ok, I mixed some things up. At the point they have that talk on the bridge, she'd probably already stored Ashley somewhere. He offers, "when this is all over, we'll start our dance anew." She says "Count on it" just as he leaves. She's clinging to hope that she can have a normal family life with him, and presumably, resume the pregnancy.

Yes, since the walk on the bridge was suppose to be around 1910; I'd say Ashley was already stored. I interpreted the comments "we'll start our dance anew" and Helen's "Count on it" to mean she wouldn't stop hunting him to stop him from killing and John was aware that she wouldn't. The intense look and how she was lost in thought as Watson approached was because she was torn between her feelings toward John and her ethics as she felt she couldn't allow him to keep killing even if that meant she would have to kill him to stop him.

Feast of the Muse
April 20th, 2011, 09:29 AM
Yes, since the walk on the bridge was suppose to be around 1910; I'd say Ashley was already stored. I interpreted the comments "we'll start our dance anew" and Helen's "Count on it" to mean she wouldn't stop hunting him to stop him from killing and John was aware that she wouldn't. The intense look and how she was lost in thought as Watson approached was because she was torn between her feelings toward John and her ethics as she felt she couldn't allow him to keep killing even if that meant she would have to kill him to stop him.

Oooh, how did you know what year it was? 'Cause that it is some helpful information!

JanSam
April 20th, 2011, 09:53 AM
When talking about FK&C at TSE one them gave the three time periods that would be shown. Sorry I can't remember if it was M.A.D. or Lee Wilson (think it was Amanda).

RealmOfX
April 20th, 2011, 06:47 PM
Yes, since the walk on the bridge was suppose to be around 1910; I'd say Ashley was already stored. I interpreted the comments "we'll start our dance anew" and Helen's "Count on it" to mean she wouldn't stop hunting him to stop him from killing and John was aware that she wouldn't. The intense look and how she was lost in thought as Watson approached was because she was torn between her feelings toward John and her ethics as she felt she couldn't allow him to keep killing even if that meant she would have to kill him to stop him.

That was my take on it too.


When talking about FK&C at TSE one them gave the three time periods that would be shown. Sorry I can't remember if it was M.A.D. or Lee Wilson (think it was Amanda).

Amanda mentioned it in several interviews too and Pax Romana set the date as 1908 or a little earlier.

LadyGalaxyJ
April 24th, 2011, 04:44 PM
I remember reading an interview with MW where he said it was in 1908. ;)

tinnec
June 26th, 2012, 08:45 PM
In this episode two things have bothered me:

1. How did Adam die? He got shot in the shoulder--shouldn't have killed him, unless she hit that one vein that bleeds a ton--and then jumped off the cliff but was transported away by John and then into the river. What killed Adam? Did he drown himself?

2. Was John dying? And what of? Did he OD? And what did Helen keep injecting him with?

AresLover452
May 26th, 2014, 02:05 PM
I just re-watched this episode!!!! I loved the Cambodia scene even though John was SO HIGH on opiates! I still love when Helen lies next to him.

meredithchandler73
June 12th, 2014, 10:47 AM
In this episode two things have bothered me:

1. How did Adam die? He got shot in the shoulder--shouldn't have killed him, unless she hit that one vein that bleeds a ton--and then jumped off the cliff but was transported away by John and then into the river. What killed Adam? Did he drown himself?

2. Was John dying? And what of? Did he OD? And what did Helen keep injecting him with?

1. I believe that Helen assumed that Adam died since he was shot and fell from a great height into the river below and didn't come back to London and cause mischief. He asked Druitt to let him go/let him die in the river and Druitt does that. You see that Adam floated in the water and ended up in Hollow Earth where he was taken in and healed. It is certainly possible that Adam would have just bled out had he not be found.

2. I never thought John was dying, just that he was drugging himself heavily with anything/everything that might stamp down the energy being inside him which causes him to kill. Not sure what Helen was giving John, but probably something to let him sleep and give him time to get all the other junk he has been taking to get out of his system.

Helen laying down beside John and pulling his arm around her is still one of the most powerful moments in the series for me.