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Amann
November 1st, 2010, 01:43 AM
This is part of an extended discussion on a youtube comment video that is between myself, Nowhereman, Sundown, and Avrilrocks. The discussion started out originally as a Galactic Empire vs Federation fight, but it expanded. But anyone can join in the debate.

Their position is that Federation will win, and mine is that Galactic Empire easily wins.

First off, we have to establish what canon can be used for both sides. I will go with what both LucasFilms and Holocron considers canon for Star Wars, and what Paramount considers canon for Star Trek. I will state the official canon policies below.

STAR WARS:
In the Star wars side, canon is movies, books, shows, comics, reference books, and basically almost anything. There is a canon rating scale. If it is not contradicted by a higher rating canon source, it is canon.


* G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie).[1]

This includes the movies, the novelizations of said movies, reference books like the Incredible Cross Sections (which were commissioned by Lucas himself and verified as G-canon by Leland Chee, the guy who is in charge of SW canon.


* T-canon,[2] or Television Canon[3], refers to the canon level comprising the feature film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the two television shows Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series.[4][5] It was devised recently in order to define a status above the C-Level canon, as confirmed by Chee[6].

As stated, the clone wars TV shows.



* C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be;[7] they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.


This is the rating of most of the EU, but many elements are G-canon even in the C-canon novels.


* S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.

Obviously stated.



* N is Non-Canon. What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm. Information cut from canon, deleted scenes, or from canceled Star Wars works falls into this category as well, unless another canonical work references it and it is declared canon.

Again, stated.

STAR TREK:

Star Trek canon is very tight and restrictive to say the least. Paramount Pictures has Star Trek canon limited to the movies and TV Shows. Novels and other works are Non-canon. Gene Roddenberry used to state alot that "If I say it isn't Trek, it isn't Trek.". He had even stated that parts of The Original Series are not canon anymore. If we are to take the statement at face value, then we could even state that DS9, Voyager, Enterprise, and any of the TNG movies are non-canon. But for the purposes of the discussion, we will go with Paramount's canon status, which means all shows and movies are canon.

To state consistency, we will go with the most numerous examples instead of relying on one episode or one movie wonders if they exist as multiple examples.

Let us also put down some ground rules please before the debate commences.

1) No flamming or trolling. I might do it on Youtube, but here, let us maintain some decorum.

2) Respectful posting, even if you do not agree with a statement.

3) If giving a quotation, please state a source. If a source is not readily available for statement, please post at least the link of the website you got it from to be verified.

Now that has been stated. Let us get on with the opening post to kick the debate off.

STARTING NOW

Opening statement:


I have consistently stated time and again that the Galactic Empire would win against most if not all Trek races, with the exception of the Q. Although there is little reason to suspect that the Q would get involved in a political or military war of ideologies or contest of physical arms. Let us divide this into a few catagories.

Industrial capacity and territorial holdings:

The Empire itself has over a million worlds as a lower limit, as stated by the G-canon source A New Hope Novelization.


"This station is the final link in the new-forged Imperial chain which will bind the million systems of the Galactic Empire together once and for all."
-Grand Moff Tarkin (pg. 116, softcover edition)

But there are some other limits that are stated by some C-canon sources as well.

From pg. 301 of Tales of the Bounty Hunters hardcover:



"In a sector of the galaxy Boba Fett had never heard of, a star went nova; it murdered a world and an entire sentient species. It aroused less comment than had the destruction of Alderaan, only a decade prior; the galaxy at large barely noticed the tragedy, and Fett never heard about it. In a galaxy with over four hundred billion stars, over twenty million intelligent species, such things are bound to happen."

And From Dark Empire, issue #3:


Leia: "It's true, Han. The Force is bringing me closer to Luke ... even though he's light years away ... he's in terrible trouble, Han. The dark side is swallowing him whole! We've got to find him!"

Han: "Sure, why not? There's only twelve million inhabited star systems out there ... it shouldn't be too hard."

As we can see, the Empire has far far far more worlds than the Federation does, with a mere 150 member worlds (As stated by Captain Picard in First Contact) and perhaps several hundred or a thousand tiny colonies that do not qualify as member worlds or really rate comment since they lack any form of industrial capacity. Most are merely small settlements. Even with that in mind, they are still dwarfed by the massive Galactic Empire. Especially since the Federation has never built a starship larger than 700 meters and the Empire builds moon-sized Deathstars in 6 months.

Fleet size:

The Empire, in addition to the 2 Deathstars they built with relative ease, also maintain a fleet of 25,000 Imperial Star destroyers, as well as several ten to hundreds of thousands more ships ranging from 100 meter long corvettes to 19 km long Star Dreadnoughts like the Executor. The deathstar seen in Revenge of the Sith was most likely a prototype deathstar much like the one at the Maw installation. It is even possible this was at the maw installation, since canonwise, the Deathstar was further developed by Bevel Lemelisk as well as massive teams of engineers and scientists. The Empire has lots of ships and major industrial capacity.

The Federation at best has a few thousand starships ranging from their fighters (which are counted in their fleet counts) to Sovereign class ships. 600 ships in the Second Battle for Deep Space 9 counted as a major offensive to be reckoned with by both Damar and Weyoun. And 2800 Dominion ships were considered enough by both sides to decisively win the war with ease, since the Federation considered their destruction top priority. It took the Federation a year to recover from the loss of 39 ships at the Battle of Wolf 359 from the TNG episode The Best of Both Worlds. The Empire alone has the industrial advantage to defeat the entire Alpha Quadrant and the Dominion and more than likely the Borg even with their thousands of cubes.

Firepower and ship capabilities:

Star Destroyers have been canonically known to slag entire worlds into glass, both in G and C canon sources. The G-canon Incredible Cross Section give Acclaimator class transports 200 gigatons worth of firepower for their heavy guns, and this is a mere transport ship. It is more than likely a Star Destroyer has more firepower since it is a dedicated warship and not a transport. This alone should contradict any statement by C-canon sources that would say otherwise, since canon status in Star Wars works that way.

Federation ships are more than likely megaton firepower. In the TNG episode Pegasus, Riker stated that it would take most of their photon torpedoes to destroy the asteroid present. Considering that the Enterprise carries 200 plus photon torpedoes, this could mean anywhere from 100-199 torpedoes fired to destroy the asteriod. Some will dispute the size of the asteroid (I stated it was prob somewhere about 5km wide, and the Trek side stated 9 km by 6 km), but considering it had deep chasms that could have the Enterprise D fit in there, it is strange that the asteroid could not be destroyed by strategically firing torpedoes in the chasms to rupture the asteroid. This would suggest that the yield of torpedoes is actually in the kiloton range. but other instances will suggest at least megaton range.

The Tech manuals are noncanon, although it is written by people who worked for the show, can be used in a way to determine what makes up a photon torpedo. A photon torpedo is stated to be at maximum yield containing 1.5 kg of antimatter. This is roughly 64 megaton yield. Quantum torpedoes are stated to be twice that in firepower terms.

Another example of high end Trek firepower is the Cardassian Dreadnought, which contained 1000 KG of antimatter, which would be roughly a 43 gigaton (43,000 megatons) yield and indeed enough to shatter a small moon. But it is essentially a suicidal ramming ship superweapon and not a base tech example of standard ship firepower. This is like saying the Deathstar is standard for every Star Wars ship, since it has the ability to one-shot entire planets in a second.

Also, the Empire only requires hours or even a few days to cross galactic distances. The Federation warp drive requires decades to cross their own galaxy.

Amann
November 1st, 2010, 01:44 AM
Ground armies:

The Federation and other Alpha quadrant powers lack tanks, NBC protection, artillery, and even a sustained fire support weapon like a machine gun. The Empire, on the other hand, enjoys a very diverse combined arms military and needless to say, a Federation ground army is entirely dependent on orbital support in the absence of artillery. Ground on ground, the Federation loses badly. The Empire also does have superior body armor, since the Federation soldier does not have anything more than his uniform. Even stormtrooper armor, as ineffective as it is against direct blaster fire, is still better than clothing, and the armor provides NBC protection and even protection against the vacuum of space for a short period of time. This is valuable considering the Empire regularly uses nerve gas and weapons of mass destruction.

Conclusion:

In short, the Empire wins against a war against the Federation. Their ground armies are vastly superior, and their navies are both superior in technology and in numbers.

DigiFluid
November 1st, 2010, 01:50 AM
I don't think there's really any contest here. It was explicitly stated in a TNG ep (I forget which, sorry) that lasers have virtually zero effect on 24th-century Starfleet shields. And considering lasers are the primary armament of the SW universe, the fight is looking awfully one-sided unless the Empire starts using its ships to ram Starfleet ones.

I'm not speaking from any particular bias here, I adore both franchises.

Col.Foley
November 1st, 2010, 02:05 AM
I don't think there's really any contest here. It was explicitly stated in a TNG ep (I forget which, sorry) that lasers have virtually zero effect on 24th-century Starfleet shields. And considering lasers are the primary armament of the SW universe, the fight is looking awfully one-sided unless the Empire starts using its ships to ram Starfleet ones.

I'm not speaking from any particular bias here, I adore both franchises.

you have to remember though that they were low powered, primitive weapon systems that were pre phaser.

Turbo Lasers are the Phaser equivelent of the SWs universe. They are high powered and highly destructive. And built off of technoligical advances.

and they are particle beam..I am really beginning to despise the term :P

Amann
November 1st, 2010, 02:10 AM
I don't think there's really any contest here. It was explicitly stated in a TNG ep (I forget which, sorry) that lasers have virtually zero effect on 24th-century Starfleet shields. And considering lasers are the primary armament of the SW universe, the fight is looking awfully one-sided unless the Empire starts using its ships to ram Starfleet ones.

I'm not speaking from any particular bias here, I adore both franchises.

Turbolasers are not lasers. Is a Phaser rifle a rifle in the conventional sense? Meaning a projectile weapon fired through a grooving in the barrel? No. Is a blueprint in today's terms blue? No.

Turbolasers do not behave like lasers. Lasers travel at light speed, are fired through lenses, and cannot be seen except in their direction of travel.

Turbolasers travel at sublight speeds, are fired through barrels, and can be seen as it glows visibly in vacuum. In addition, turbolaser fire can flak as seen in empire strikes back with the ISD hitting the Falcon and with AT-AT anti-aircraft fire.

Also, lasers do not have mass. Turbolaser bolts can have significant momentum, as demonstrated by a turbolaser impact on the Millennium Falcon's aft quarter in TESB as well as the cannon recoil observed whenever we see close-ups of the guns in operation.

The best suited theory is that turbolasers are really some sort of exotic particle beam weapon.

SoulReaver
November 1st, 2010, 02:34 AM
btw quantum torpedos are also stated to use ZPE



Federation ships are more than likely megaton firepower. In the TNG episode Pegasus, Riker stated that it would take most of their photon torpedoes to destroy the asteroid present.yeah but at what yield ?

on the other hand it did take only 12 (or 9 ?) photon torpedos to blow up a star



borg shields and even federation shields can take at least 1 fully powered shot from a bioship (iirc 9 such shots are enough to destroy a planet)

and consider that all it took was a tie-fighter crashing into an executor-class superdestroyer to cripple it, that says something about empire shielding






now of course if for Star Wars we take into account the books, the Expanded Eniverse & all the side stuff that George Lucas had nothing to do with (btw jedi spirits are supposed to be mortal in that universe. lol. did Lucas ever state whether or not he accepts the E.U. as canon ?) while at the same time leaving out all the side stuff for Star Trek, that's doesn't really come off as fair playground does it :/

Amann
November 1st, 2010, 04:41 AM
btw quantum torpedos are also stated to use ZPE

But obviously nowhere near what a ZPM is. Since a ZPM can blow up a whole solar system.


yeah but at what yield ?

64 megatons for photons

128 megatons for quantums


on the other hand it did take only 12 (or 9 ?) photon torpedos to blow up a star

Reference source episode and series. I do not recall this happening. You might be talking about klingon birds of prey fighting jem'hedar ships....but that was not a nova, that was a Coronal Mass Ejection. Or you might be talking about trilithium torpedoes, which can do it, but it's a chain reaction weapon and not a symbol of raw firepower.

For the Star Wars side, you have the Sun Crusher, which is small and does much of the same thing, blows up suns. It is also nigh invunerable, as it rammed right through a Star Destroyer's shieldings and the bridge and exited out the other side with no damage, leaving the Star Destroyer to get sucked into a black hole in the Maw Installation. (Jedi Search)



borg shields and even federation shields can take at least 1 fully powered shot from a bioship (iirc 9 such shots are enough to destroy a planet)

A bioship is less powerful than a ISD. ISD's can slag entire planets quickly enough to prevent reinforcements arriving in a timely manner. Hours at the max, nominally no more than one hour. And the bioship doesn't blow apart a planet deathstar style. Deathstar does it in one second. Kaboom. Plus as I stated, the Empire has far more resources and manpower to throw around than any Alpha Quadrant power, and they outnumber the Borg, who even with adaptations, have upper shield limits as seen from how they were destroyed in First Contact.

Plus no guarantee the Borg can assimilate Empire technology because they first have to understand the underlying principles of the technology, and they might not understand it if it is too advanced. The Empire will more than likely shoot up a sizable portion of their fleet with a few shots and destroy their transwarp hub network, which will leave the Borg crippled in their fast FTL and also their fleet would be depleted. And even with adaptations, still an upper limit that the Empire can Zerg under. Plus, the Borg were vulnerable to their collective weakness that was first seen in TNG and utilized in Voyager to divide the Borg up internally. I am sure the Empire can figure it out if the Federation could, due to their more advanced technology. Although even if they did not, once they conquered the Federation, they would know of the plan the Federation came up with and utilize it.



and consider that all it took was a tie-fighter crashing into an executor-class superdestroyer to cripple it, that says something about empire shielding

The novelization of ROTJ showed that the Rebel fleet had brought down her main shields first with concentrated salvos and firepower, leaving only her emergency bridge deflector shields, which were brought down by the domes exploding and causing a chain reaction. The A-wing then crashed into an unshielded bridge and hit it. Even then, the Executor would not have been destroyed had it not been for getting caught in a gravity well of the deathstar and pulled down. Had the secondary bridge restored functions in that 10 seconds, it would probably have survived.



now of course if for Star Wars we take into account the books, the Expanded Eniverse & all the side stuff that George Lucas had nothing to do with (btw jedi spirits are supposed to be mortal in that universe. lol. did Lucas ever state whether or not he accepts the E.U. as canon ?) while at the same time leaving out all the side stuff for Star Trek, that's doesn't really come off as fair playground does it :/

I am stating the canon policies of both companies. Paramount considers only the shows and movies as canon. Lucasfilms considers both the Expanded Universe and the films, reference books, novelizations of films, and even production notes as canon. I did not make the rules on canon policy. We have to use what is canon and what is not, since both companies have very different policies. So the books in Star Trek cannot be counted as canon because Paramount deems them non-canonical. We do however count the Star Wars books as canon however since LucasFilms considers them to be canon, although subordinate to the films. But the catch is unless the movies contradict the EU, the EU is canon.

Lucas himself does not really have much to do with the EU, since he stated that he cannot possibly hope to read it all and sort it out.

He does approve of many things of the EU personally though, such as the ICS and novelizations. As for the other stuff, that is where the Holocron comes in and rates what is canon and what is not. As you have seen, there are grades of canon that the Holocron decides. So if you look for what is canon and what is not, unless contradicted by Lucas specifically, the Holocron decides what is canon. So I decided to use what is canon for both sides.

SoulReaver
November 1st, 2010, 05:12 AM
But obviously nowhere near what a ZPM is. Since a ZPM can blow up a whole solar system.but ZPE is still ZPE. shows that the trekkies have reached that level of knowledge if they can harness the power of it. now a ZPM-calibre torpedo wouldn't be of much use during a dogfight as it would wipe out the entire battlefield along with the combatants :/


64 megatons for photons

128 megatons for quantums
no I meant what yield as in what setting. there is a vast difference between the standard torpedo yield used during most dogfights (where the "explosions" look like firecrackers with tiny if any blast radius) and a spectacular full-spread max-yield detonation which destroys surrounding ships along with the target (used very rarely in TnG)



Reference source episode and series. I do not recall this happening. You might be talking about klingon birds of prey fighting jem'hedar ships....but that was not a nova, that was a Coronal Mass Ejection. Or you might be talking about trilithium torpedoes, which can do it, but it's a chain reaction weapon and not a symbol of raw firepower.nope I meant the ep where they encounter a planet whose inhabitants commit ritual suicide when they hit 60. at the beginning of the ep they try to save a dying sun but end up blowing it up instead


A bioship is less powerful than a ISD. ISD's can slag entire planets quickly enough to prevent reinforcements arriving in a timely manner. Namely hours. And the bioship doesn't blow apart a planet deathstar style.not really especially considering the difference in size between the 2 ships, the bioship is proportionately far, far more powerful. and even leaving proportion aside it's still superior
even if ISDs can do what you describe (I don't recall this happening in the movies or TV series), it's still merely surface damage isn't it ? (how many ISDs does it take ? over how long ?)
on the other hand a small group of bioships can drill all the way to a planet's core in a matter of seconds, that's an whooole different league in terms of firepower. and if a small pack of those tiny ships can inflict that kinda damage, imagine what those aliens could pull off if they built their own moon-sized construct. more like galaxy-busting power, lol



btw has paramount explicitly rejected the ST novels as non-canon ?

Amann
November 1st, 2010, 06:30 AM
but ZPE is still ZPE. shows that the trekkies have reached that level of knowledge if they can harness the power of it. now a ZPM-calibre torpedo wouldn't be of much use during a dogfight as it would wipe out the entire battlefield along with the combatants :/

Not really, since it cannot harness all that power. Zero Point Energy does not blow up star systems in Star Trek, and it is only twice as powerful as photon torpedoes to begin with. So even if they are very very very very early in zero point energy technology, does not mean instant ZPM power. ZPM's are incredibly advanced pieces of technology, and not likely to be discovered if at all by the Federation. We cannot apply what works in Stargate in regards to ZPE to Star Trek's version of ZPE. Quantums are maximum of 128 megatons. They could be increased potentially, but not by a massive leap and bound. Technology is like science, it is evolutionary rather than revolutionary.



no I meant what yield as in what setting. there is a vast difference between the standard torpedo yield used during most dogfights (where the "explosions" look like firecrackers with tiny if any blast radius) and a spectacular full-spread max-yield detonation which destroys surrounding ships along with the target (used very rarely in TnG)

Max yields of Trek is 64 megatons for Photon Torpedoes and 128 megatons for Quantum Torpedoes. Conceivably not used to max firepower most of the time because antimatter is the fuel of the Enterprise and using too much also uses fuel. Since we have seen a few times kiloton level firepower from torpedoes. (Generations comes to mind)



nope I meant the ep where they encounter a planet whose inhabitants commit ritual suicide when they hit 60. at the beginning of the ep they try to save a dying sun but end up blowing it up instead

I think I recall the episode. Have not seen that one in a while though. I have to watch it later, since I am dead tired and heading to sleep. Although suns are kinda easier to destroy in a way. Star Wars and Star Trek can both do it. But we are arguing base firepower for both sides, meaning conventional starships. Although the Empire is far more willing to use mass destruction weapons than the Federation.



not really especially considering the difference in size between the 2 ships, the bioship is proportionately far, far more powerful. and even leaving proportion aside it's still superior

It requires 8 more like it and a central ship to operate as that kind of weapon. Otherwise it is not that powerful. ISD's are that powerful as a base design.



even if ISDs can do what you describe (I don't recall this happening in the movies or TV series), it's still merely surface damage isn't it ? (how many ISDs does it take ? over how long ?)

Canon depictions in the EU show ISD's melting sand into glass and where rocks flow like water. Depends on the ships for how long, but a single one can do it, although it is longer since it has to orbit and do it to the other side (line of sight weapons).

In the movies, we never see a full on planetary bombardment, but we do know that they possess massive firepower regardless. In ROTJ, just as Ackbar is ordering his fleet to fire on the super star destroyer, we see a apparently undamaged Star Destroyer lose her shields and get hit with heavy turbolaser fire, which blows it up like a wetwork.

We see Star Destroyers vaporizing asteroids with her light trench guns in Empire Strikes Back (The heavy turbolasers are on top of the ship on either side of the bridge tower.). The novelizations show the ISD fleet staying in the asteriod field for days searching for the Falcon and blowing up all kinds of high velocity asteroids. They kept getting hit by rocks however since they were bound to miss some, and eventually caused damage after days of getting hit with impacts rivaling multi-megaton impacts.



on the other hand a small group of bioships can drill all the way to a planet's core in a matter of seconds, that's an whooole different league in terms of firepower. and if a small pack of those tiny ships can inflict that kinda damage, imagine what those aliens could pull off if they built their own moon-sized construct. more like galaxy-busting power, lol

They were still defeated by Voyager, who possesses far inferior technology to the Empire. The Empire could easily fight Species 8472 and win with the same methods, if not by outright firepower. Bio ships are more fragile than metal hulls since they are living tissue. It is the difference between human flesh and a steel plate. metallic ships can take more punishment, and they don't die from radiation like bio ships would be damaged by.



btw has paramount explicitly rejected the ST novels as non-canon ?'

That is their canon policy. The novels are explictly non-canon.

SoulReaver
November 1st, 2010, 06:59 AM
Not really, since it cannot harness all that power. Zero Point Energy does not blow up star systems in Star Trek, and it is only twice as powerful as photon torpedoes to begin with. So even if they are very very very very early in zero point energy technology, does not mean instant ZPM power. ZPM's are incredibly advanced pieces of technology, and not likely to be discovered if at all by the Federation. We cannot apply what works in Stargate in regards to ZPE to Star Trek's version of ZPE. Quantums are maximum of 128 megatons. They could be increased potentially, but not by a massive leap and bound. Technology is like science, it is evolutionary rather than revolutionary.cannot ? what I meant was, maybe they don't because there would be zero point is using more ZPE for their torpedos. for all we know quantum torpedos are weaker simply because there's less ZPE than in a ZPM, not because of inferior technology. a torpedo that could destroy anything between a planet and a solar system (depending on who does the calculations) would be useless in a dogfight


Max yields of Trek is 64 megatons for Photon Torpedoes and 128 megatons for Quantum Torpedoes. u sure about those figures ? where's it stated ?
because trekkies tend to measure in isotons (whatever those are). a 64-megaton max yield would be inferior even to the mid-20th century Tsar bomb (biggest nuke, made by the russians)


It requires 8 more like it and a central ship to operate as that kind of weapon. Otherwise it is not that powerful. ISD's are that powerful as a base design.even 9 ships are a lot smaller than an ISD. that would mean a few minutes for a single bioship to drill all the way through - compare this with superficial planetary damage for an ISD, feats are still *largely* in favor of the bioship


Canon depictions in the EU show ISD's melting sand into glass and where rocks flow like water. Depends on the ships for how long, but a single one can do it, although it is longer since it has to orbit and do it to the other side (line of sight weapons). ok, nevertheless changing sand into glass takes only a few thousand degrees - not much of an exploit for a space-faring civilization especially since RL terrans can easily do that (heck we've attained temps of several billions of degrees in some labs, and RL nukes can put out millions on degrees at point of impact)


We see Star Destroyers vaporizing asteroids with her light trench guns in Empire Strikes Back (The heavy turbolasers are on top of the ship on either side of the bridge tower.). The novelizations show the ISD fleet staying in the asteriod field for days searching for the Falcon and blowing up all kinds of high velocity asteroids. They kept getting hit by rocks however since they were bound to miss some, and eventually caused damage after days of getting hit with impacts rivaling multi-megaton impacts."multi-megaton" ? not so sure since those asteroids were quite small compared to the ISD. the asteroid in Pegasus was much bigger even than an ISD, come to think of it we never see the entire asteroid onscreen


They were still defeated by Voyager, who possesses far inferior technology to the Empire. The Empire could easily fight Species 8472 and win with the same methods, if not by outright firepower. Bio ships are more fragile than metal hulls since they are living tissue. It is the difference between human flesh and a steel plate. metallic ships can take more punishment, and they don't die from radiation like bio ships would be damaged by.actually they were defeated mostly thanks to tech from the borg - dominant faction in the MW - and Voyager crew (the doctor actually) only came up with the idea
as for Voyager having inferior tech...not really heck that's more or less the subject of this thread (there again I refer to what's shown in movies only)
btw has the empire or anyone in SW universe come up with teleportation ? the best the imperials seem to be able to do is "teleporting" holograms lol
if teleportation is unknown then it's likely that their shields don't allow for protection against this sort of tech. and in a dogfight u know what this means right ? dirty trick & easy win for the trekkies

Amann
November 1st, 2010, 07:38 AM
cannot ? what I meant was, maybe they don't because there would be zero point is using more ZPE for their torpedos. for all we know quantum torpedos are weaker simply because there's less ZPE than in a ZPM, not because of inferior technology. a torpedo that could destroy anything between a planet and a solar system (depending on who does the calculations) would be useless in a dogfight

And yet in instances where that would be useful, they do not fire. We never seen them demonstrate that kind of firepower.



u sure about those figures ? where's it stated ?
because trekkies tend to measure in isotons (whatever those are). a 64-megaton max yield would be inferior even to the mid-20th century Tsar bomb (biggest nuke, made by the russians)

DS9 tech manual, even though it is non-canon, it is still written by the people who do the show. In it, they talk about photon torpedoes carrying 1.5 kg of antimatter, which would result in a 64 megaton explosion. HOWEVER, we do know that the Cardassian Dreadnought weapon had a 1000 kg antimatter warhead, which is a 43 gigaton blast. It was basically it's own ship and indeed that is enough to destroy a small moon. But this is an example of upper limit firepower, which the ISD outdoes. Megaton level firepower for Star Trek torpedoes tend to be the most consistent.

You are right in terms of yield about nukes, although nukes require an atmosphere to be really effective in terms of blast radius. Photon Torpedoes are raw energy unleashed. Plus photon torpedoes are alot smaller than the Tsar Bomba was.

And trekkies measuring firepower in isotons is wanking the tech. We never seen isoton level firepower in star trek. Ever.



even 9 ships are a lot smaller than an ISD. that would mean a few minutes for a single bioship to drill all the way through - compare this with superficial planetary damage for an ISD, feats are still *largely* in favor of the bioship

we never saw a single bioshop do it, and the beam was fired from the central ship, which draws beams from the other ships to do it, which is probably some sort of power transmission beam to focus the power on the planet.



ok, nevertheless changing sand into glass takes only a few thousand degrees - not much of an exploit for a space-faring civilization especially since RL terrans can easily do that (heck we've attained temps of several billions of degrees in some labs, and RL nukes can put out millions on degrees at point of impact)

but nukes don't melt sand all over the planet. ISD firepower melts everything on a planet's surface. It is called a Base Delta Zero, and the goal is the destruction of everything on the planet's surface.



"multi-megaton" ? not so sure since those asteroids were quite small compared to the ISD. the asteroid in Pegasus was much bigger even than an ISD, come to think of it we never see the entire asteroid onscreen

Some of the asteroids were small, but the canon novelization depicts large asteroids. Even small asteroids impacting have tremendous force. A rock 6 miles wide struck the Earth and caused the KT mass extinction event. Sure it was going alot faster, but its still megaton level explosions over periods of days.




actually they were defeated mostly thanks to tech from the borg - dominant faction in the MW - and Voyager crew (the doctor actually) only came up with the idea
as for Voyager having inferior tech...not really heck that's more or less the subject of this thread (there again I refer to what's shown in movies only)
btw has the empire or anyone in SW universe come up with teleportation ? the best the imperials seem to be able to do is "teleporting" holograms lol
if teleportation is unknown then it's likely that their shields don't allow for protection against this sort of tech. and in a dogfight u know what this means right ? dirty trick & easy win for the trekkies

Teleportation in Star Trek is highly unreliable. Funny ores cause it to not work, so does certain kinds of radiation, all forms of shielding, jamming fields. How many times in Star Trek have we seen that transportation is impossible due to whatever? I doubt Trek can simply beam through an ISD's shields and hull, considering the ISD's hull might be made of that same funny ore and the power sources be emitting the same kind of funny fields that screw with transporters.

And Imperial shields do not operate on frequencies like Trek shields do. To assume otherwise is wishful thinking. There has never been a mention of frequency in Star Wars shields. Ever. Trekkie arguments about Imperial shields being frequency based is based upon the fact that the Federation shields use frequencies, so the Imperials must be using them too. No, they do not use the same kinds of shields, so there is no frequency weakness to exploit against the Empire. It has to be raw firepower to overwhelm it. Something Trek does not have.

At best, even disregarding all the above with teleporter tech, it is a one trick pony that the ISD's will simply overwhelm with superior numbers and firepower.

Also, regarding the Borg, again, the Borg have inferior technology to the Empire, both in terms of firepower and in FTL travel. Drones are utterly helpless against physical projectile weapons, and Star Wars in the EU does have projectile weapons.

SoulReaver
November 1st, 2010, 08:16 AM
And yet in instances where that would be useful, they do not firebut that's the thing I don't recall any such instances (save one where it fired at that giant alien probe & destroyed it, Barkley had enhanced the shields to withstand the blast)


DS9 tech manual, even though it is non-canon, it is still written by the people who do the showfair 'nuf. if it's written by the ST folks then it's like canon


But this is an example of upper limit firepower, which the ISD outdoesu mean the death star ? cause an ISD never inflicted anywhere near planet destruction. merely planet surface destruction


Some of the asteroids were small, but the canon novelization depicts large asteroids. Even small asteroids impacting have tremendous force. A rock 6 miles wide struck the Earth and caused the KT mass extinction event. Sure it was going alot faster, but its still megaton level explosions over periods of days.ok but the ones in the movie were both small & slow...didn't read the novels though


Teleportation in Star Trek is highly unreliable. Funny ores cause it to not work, so does certain kinds of radiation, all forms of shielding, jamming fields. How many times in Star Trek have we seen that transportation is impossible due to whatever? I doubt Trek can simply beam through an ISD's shields and hull, considering the ISD's hull might be made of that same funny ore and the power sources be emitting the same kind of funny fields that screw with transporters.but on the other hand they've also teleported through shields, be it their own or even borg shields (though the last one if utter PIS typical of the Voyager series, IMO)


Also, regarding the Borg, again, the Borg have inferior technology to the Empire, both in terms of firepower and in FTL travel. Drones are utterly helpless against physical projectile weapons, and Star Wars in the EU does have projectile weapons.rofl the imperials' best chance of survival is the borg won't even consider their tech worth assimilating (either that, or outrunning them - then again the faster travel thing is like in SG, the difference in speed is a question of scale. basically everyone in one universe seems to move a lot faster than everyone in the other universe => difference in laws of physics. a common problem when doing cross-series versus threads)
the borg will do what they always do, they will adapt & soon the empire's shields & weapons will be useless. remember it took an ancient alien species from another completely exotic universe to really challenge the borg


And Imperial shields do not operate on frequencies like Trek shields do. To assume otherwise is wishful thinking. There has never been a mention of frequency in Star Wars shields. Ever. Trekkie arguments about Imperial shields being frequency based is based upon the fact that the Federation shields use frequencies, so the Imperials must be using them too. No, they do not use the same kinds of shields, so there is no frequency weakness to exploit against the Empire. It has to be raw firepower to overwhelm it. Something Trek does not have.no it just means there's a lot less technobabble in the SW universe :| and just 'cause the shield tech is different doesn't mean it's superior, it could be inferior for all we know. we never hear of shield frequencies in the Enterprise series either, and yet this series takes place 2 centuries prior to TnG...

also the borg's adaptation ability is more than just a frequency thing (cf. Dark Frontier :cool: )

Morbo
November 1st, 2010, 02:35 PM
you guys are the nerdiest nerds that ever nerded.

SoulReaver
November 1st, 2010, 02:51 PM
http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/icones/smilies/sol.gif

Amann
November 1st, 2010, 03:12 PM
you guys are the nerdiest nerds that ever nerded.

and proud of it.

Soulreaver, I will be typing up a reply soon. Stay tuned :P Kinda busy atm with standard house work, but I will get to you.

Amann
November 1st, 2010, 05:52 PM
but that's the thing I don't recall any such instances (save one where it fired at that giant alien probe & destroyed it, Barkley had enhanced the shields to withstand the blast)

Well that wasn't necessarily a planet killer or a solar system killer either. Although I cannot recall a instant where they demonstrated planetary destruction on the scale of a ISD. at least in most instances. A few instances have shown it, but it is not really standard.



u mean the death star ? cause an ISD never inflicted anywhere near planet destruction. merely planet surface destruction

Which wipes out most life on a planet surface. A Federation ship has never demonstrated that capability to wipe out all life in that sort of scale. They do have megaton weaponry, which could be devastating, but they can't kill everyone on a planet surface in a timely manner.

Species 8472 is a fairly decent example, but individual ships can't do it. They have to link up to do their planet killer.



ok but the ones in the movie were both small & slow...didn't read the novels though

even the ones in the movie were varient in size, and the small rocks were moving fast. It was dangerous for the Falcon and the TIE fighters, because they were flying all over the place. It was hardly a static asteriod field.



but on the other hand they've also teleported through shields, be it their own or even borg shields (though the last one if utter PIS typical of the Voyager series, IMO)

But that was based on a shield frequency exploit, which Star Destroyers do not have. Their shield is incoherent energy.



rofl the imperials' best chance of survival is the borg won't even consider their tech worth assimilating (either that, or outrunning them - then again the faster travel thing is like in SG, the difference in speed is a question of scale. basically everyone in one universe seems to move a lot faster than everyone in the other universe => difference in laws of physics. a common problem when doing cross-series versus threads)

Well we know that Star Wars FTL is faster, and they can course correct just like Warp drive. (despite a recent trekkie claim the Empire was incapable of course changes in mid hyperspace jump). However, even if the Empire can run, it is likely their big weapons would decimate a borg ship.



the borg will do what they always do, they will adapt & soon the empire's shields & weapons will be useless. remember it took an ancient alien species from another completely exotic universe to really challenge the borg

The borg do not always adapt. They could not adapt to Species 8472, they also could not adapt to physical attacks like bladed weapons. The Borg have a good adaptation skill, but it is not a handwave to say they will defeat the Empire.



no it just means there's a lot less technobabble in the SW universe :| and just 'cause the shield tech is different doesn't mean it's superior, it could be inferior for all we know. we never hear of shield frequencies in the Enterprise series either, and yet this series takes place 2 centuries prior to TnG...

Although this can be taken to understand that the enterprise, not having shields of their own, did not understand shields or their technology. Instead they had polarized hull plating.



also the borg's adaptation ability is more than just a frequency thing (cf. Dark Frontier :cool: )

Well, they can adapt if they have a good knowledge of the technological base, but that does not mean they have a inherent ability to immediately understand technology. It will take them a while to adapt, and even adapted, cannot withstand raw firepower. They are not immune when adapted, it just takes massed firepower.