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Aurora24
October 13th, 2010, 08:46 PM
I hope this doesn't seem like a repeat of some earlier threads, but I just wanted to make a few comments on the way Young is treating the LA prisoners. Apparently the remaining LA members have struck a deal with Earth where they're trading information to stay on the ship. So, does that mean that Young actually expects to keep them locked in that one room for however many months (or longer) they're stuck on Destiny? I think Wray had several valid points about how they should be receiving better treatment, at the very least to encourage them to share information to protect Earth. At the very least they should be given quarters (kept under guard of course). There are only nine of them, I can't believe that there aren't enough military personnel on Destiny to keep an eye on nine prisoners if they're split up.

The second problem is that Young won't let them help with problems on the ship. Ginn is a scientist, and Koz has medical training, at the very least they should be helping out, under close observation. Ginn offered to help, and Young didn't even consider the idea.

Young seems to be under the impression that because he is the military leader on the ship he has absolute authority. He didn't even want to share information about what was happening with Telford, who has equivalent rank and is entitled to know what is going on. I think Telford handled the situation really well, if I was the one who was being kept out of the loop I would have started yelling. My problem with Young's attitude is that he's not the most stable person, and he's not thinking things through logically. He refuses to allow anyone to act in a way that is contrary to how he wants things to go. That is something which is already causing problems, and will most likely continue to cause problems down the road.

morbosfist
October 13th, 2010, 08:54 PM
Young is being rather uptight about this situation, but to be fair it cannot have been more than a few days. Personally I can't blame him for being cautious (Simeon is trouble waiting to happen), but on a provisional basis he needs to start working with them.

garhkal
October 14th, 2010, 05:56 AM
I think most of it is cause it was the LA who caused TJ to lose her baby...

Rylor
October 14th, 2010, 06:17 AM
It wouldn't be the first time Young makes irrational decisions influenced by personal feelings. Wray made some very good points. They can't keep them locked up in that room forever.

jelgate
October 14th, 2010, 06:24 AM
It wouldn't be the first time Young makes irrational decisions influenced by personal feelings. Wray made some very good points. They can't keep them locked up in that room forever.

Sure they can. It can be Destiny's own brig.

reddevil18
October 14th, 2010, 06:36 AM
Yeah. I was always a Young supporter, but he's seriously out of line. They're prisoners, they have no rights! Oookay...Friggin psycho.

reddevil18
October 14th, 2010, 06:37 AM
Sure they can. It can be Destiny's own brig.Unless they want it to become a tomb as well, no, they can't keep 'em there forever.

jelgate
October 14th, 2010, 06:43 AM
Unless they want it to become a tomb as well, no, they can't keep 'em there forever.

We have the weapons. We can force them not to kill one another like any prison

Rylor
October 14th, 2010, 07:11 AM
Sure they can. It can be Destiny's own brig.

It was not meant literally. Sure they could keep them in there as long as they want. But what good would that serve? It would just alienate the people with intel on the Lucian Alliance and skills. In the long run, they need everyone on board to do something, and the prisoners have shown they could be useful members of the crew (except for Simeon, who is too unstable). Of course, they should be kept under surveillance for the time being, but Young isn't even giving them a chance to prove themselves.

reddevil18
October 14th, 2010, 07:18 AM
We have the weapons. We can force them not to kill one another like any prison Not what I meant.

xxxevilgrinxxx
October 14th, 2010, 07:43 AM
Given that the LA is an invading force that resulted not only in the death of one of Young's men but in the death of his child and the harm caused to his former lover, I'd say the LA is lucky to be drawing air. Rights? What rights does an invading force have? They're being fed. They're not being tortured. What, like earth has done so great with their help that they should be listened to?

Unamed
October 14th, 2010, 08:00 AM
Given that the LA is an invading force that resulted not only in the death of one of Young's men but in the death of his child and the harm caused to his former lover, I'd say the LA is lucky to be drawing air. Rights? What rights does an invading force have? They're being fed. They're not being tortured. What, like earth has done so great with their help that they should be listened to?

Totally agree, they are being treated humainly fed etc, they are prisoners of war.

Rylor
October 14th, 2010, 10:24 AM
Given that the LA is an invading force that resulted not only in the death of one of Young's men but in the death of his child and the harm caused to his former lover, I'd say the LA is lucky to be drawing air. Rights? What rights does an invading force have? They're being fed. They're not being tortured. What, like earth has done so great with their help that they should be listened to?

Destiny has limited manpower and resources. They can't afford to waste their talents like that, in the long term. Sure, Young has personal reasons not to trust them, but that only confirms that he is not a particurlarly good leader. Without Varro, Young and the other military personnel would already be dead. He put his life at risk for them, without any real need or obligation to do so. Young seems to forget that fact.

Also, I agree that the Lucian Alliance was an invading force, but for all we know not all of them were voluntary members. Given what we know about the Lucian Alliance, I can easily believe that Ginn's story was true, and who knows how many of them have similar stories to tell?

jelgate
October 14th, 2010, 10:31 AM
Destiny has limited manpower and resources. They can't afford to waste their talents like that, in the long term. Sure, Young has personal reasons not to trust them, but that only confirms that he is not a particurlarly good leader. Without Varro, Young and the other military personnel would already be dead. He put his life at risk for them, without any real need or obligation to do so. Young seems to forget that fact.

Also, I agree that the Lucian Alliance was an invading force, but for all we know not all of them were voluntary members. Given what we know about the Lucian Alliance, I can easily believe that Ginn's story was true, and who knows how many of them have similar stories to tell?

It takes little to resources to lock a few people in the cargo bay to keep them detained. They wouldn't have lost people if it wasn't for the Alliance so they have that against them. I believe accessory to murder carries more then a few weeks.

xxxevilgrinxxx
October 14th, 2010, 10:36 AM
Destiny has limited manpower and resources. They can't afford to waste their talents like that, in the long term. Sure, Young has personal reasons not to trust them, but that only confirms that he is not a particurlarly good leader. Without Varro, Young and the other military personnel would already be dead. He put his life at risk for them, without any real need or obligation to do so. Young seems to forget that fact.

Also, I agree that the Lucian Alliance was an invading force, but for all we know not all of them were voluntary members. Given what we know about the Lucian Alliance, I can easily believe that Ginn's story was true, and who knows how many of them have similar stories to tell?

Did Young gamble on Varro? Yep. Still doesn't make Varro into something other than a member of the LA. Who put their life at risk for whom? You're not clear on this. Did Varro put his life at risk? Young? Did they both gamble? Yeah. People take gambles all the time. When those gambles are made by military men and are successful, they're respected as daring and innovative by history. The fact that the ship is back in the hands of the Destiny crew with a minimal loss of life would seem to be a success to me but history will have to tell that one.

As for who volunteered and who didn't, who's to say? Anybody can say anything to save their own skin and just because a member of the LA makes the claim doesn't make it so. What doesn't change is the simple fact that the LA is a criminal organization that's apparently at war with earth and that they invaded the Destiny. That much can be stated as fact. everything else is someone's word.

Granted, if Young didn't have such a personal stake in the matter, he may see it differently, and I believe that, at least where a few of them are concerned, he will see it differently, but I don't think we're there yet.

Paladine
October 14th, 2010, 10:38 AM
Young is definately cracking...

First they kill his child ( as far as he knows ), then TJ is becoming distant to him again, then all of Rush's antics with disappearing, to having to kill Riley, to encountering a potentially hostlie ship ( seeder ship ). Thats some pretty stressfull situations to deal with.

Treating the prisoners harshly is his only outlet for his frustrations right now. Can you blame him?

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 14th, 2010, 11:15 AM
Paladine,


Young is definately cracking...

First they kill his child ( as far as he knows ), then TJ is becoming distant to him again, then all of Rush's antics with disappearing, to having to kill Riley, to encountering a potentially hostlie ship ( seeder ship ). Thats some pretty stressfull situations to deal with.

Treating the prisoners harshly is his only outlet for his frustrations right now. Can you blame him?

I can. I agree with Sgt. Riley how you treat your prisoners is a yardstick of civilization.

Lainier
October 14th, 2010, 05:44 PM
I can. I agree with Sgt. Riley how you treat your prisoners is a yardstick of civilization.
They are billions light-years away from civilization. The crew try to survive under extreme circunstances that can result in extreme decisions. Anyway, the prisoners are well treated. But they want to join the crew, as if nothing happened! Don't forget that LA is probably the most dangerous organization of the Milky Way. I do not approve Young's actions, but I understand him.

pipi
October 14th, 2010, 09:46 PM
Is there even a toilet in that room? Guess a bucket will do. :)

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 15th, 2010, 03:54 AM
Lainier,


They are billions light-years away from civilization. The crew try to survive under extreme circunstances that can result in extreme decisions. Anyway, the prisoners are well treated. But they want to join the crew, as if nothing happened! Don't forget that LA is probably the most dangerous organization of the Milky Way. I do not approve Young's actions, but I understand him.

True and they aren't being treated that badly. It just seems like a waste of manpower to keep them locked up. Ginn, at least, should be let out without anyone else from the LA given her backstory and the fact that she took out Dannick under guard initally. Varro and the rest I would be much more cautious with.

garhkal
October 15th, 2010, 03:55 AM
Being we never saw a toiet even on SGA, i doubt we will ever know

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 15th, 2010, 03:57 AM
Babylon 5, the only SciFi show to actually show a restroom in space.

kymeric
October 15th, 2010, 02:29 PM
Being we never saw a toiet even on SGA, i doubt we will ever know

They showed one on the ep Midway....

blueray
October 15th, 2010, 02:49 PM
Is there even a toilet in that room? Guess a bucket will do. :)

my guess is if they have to go, a guard will escored them there. as for showing a toliet, they did show showers so my guess is they are near there.

smart
October 15th, 2010, 09:05 PM
Yes, I think Young is letting his emotions overcome his professional judgment. He seems to be unforgiving to how the LA were willing to kill his crew when they first boarded the ship and argues that many acts of good faith on their part were actually done for their own well being[ i.e Young's argument of how the LA only killed Danic because of how Danic’s unwillingness to surrender would have ed them to be victims of the pulsar is important for Young to realize that the LA is now extremely outnumbered and that they are at his mercy in that they are primarily kept on board to provide valuable Intel to HC in order to help Earth prepare for an upcoming LA attack. Essentially, their very existence on the ship is for tis reason in hopes of a higher quality of life among the mainstream population

Should they feel as though their arrangement with Earth is going in vain ,by them not being treated properly, the LA may decide to provide false info.

Also, Young needs to recognize some of these individuals have skills necessary to contribute in Destiny [ i,e Ginn]] and that such skills
be helpful in various situations

garhkal
October 16th, 2010, 02:54 AM
They showed one on the ep Midway....

Where? was it on the midway station.

SGeff
October 16th, 2010, 04:18 AM
So I acctually on Young's side in this. Is Young's personal feeling affected his decision? Sure.

If you set them free, then some militaries have to watch them 24/7. That means at least they need 2 guards to watch 1 LA member. There are 9, so at least they need 18 militaries. That is a lot people, considering they only have a little bit more than 60 left.

And there is Simeon, the guy is literally dangerous, I saw him involved in the fight in "Aftermath". Don't know why Wray and Telford kept him. So we cannot tell there are not others like him.

You cannot 100 percent say they are safe, and one day or two wouldn't prove it. You know "Awakening" happened right after "Aftermath". There are just not enough time to trust people, especially since the milky way war hasn't happened, you cannot tell if they are telling the truth or not.

Don't know why Wray is pushing Young so hard, doesn't she see there are dangerous ones like Simeon who is definitely capable and very likely will kill one of their own? And you know you are risking other people's life by setting the LA member free, right?

I think when the LA's information about the war checks out. Then it means they can be trusted, and also they are traiters to their own people. At that point you could set them free under the guard's watch. Right now, locking down is the best option.

xxxevilgrinxxx
October 16th, 2010, 09:21 AM
So I acctually on Young's side in this. Is Young's personal feeling affected his decision? Sure.

If you set them free, then some militaries have to watch them 24/7. That means at least they need 2 guards to watch 1 LA member. There are 9, so at least they need 18 militaries. That is a lot people, considering they only have a little bit more than 60 left.

And there is Simeon, the guy is literally dangerous, I saw him involved in the fight in "Aftermath". Don't know why Wray and Telford kept him. So we cannot tell there are not others like him.

You cannot 100 percent say they are safe, and one day or two wouldn't prove it. You know "Awakening" happened right after "Aftermath". There are just not enough time to trust people, especially since the milky way war hasn't happened, you cannot tell if they are telling the truth or not.

Don't know why Wray is pushing Young so hard, doesn't she see there are dangerous ones like Simeon who is definitely capable and very likely will kill one of their own? And you know you are risking other people's life by setting the LA member free, right?

I think when the LA's information about the war checks out. Then it means they can be trusted, and also they are traiters to their own people. At that point you could set them free under the guard's watch. Right now, locking down is the best option.

Yes, Young's got personal feelings involved but the very fact that there are LA left alive, and that continue to be fed and cared for would suggest that he's not out of control. There is simply no way to insure that these people - these criminals mind you - are as good as their word. Wray is notoriously naive when it comes to looking at people and add to that, if she's carrying the IOA's water, then I doubt her in any case. As for Simeon, that man is very dangerous and having him able to walk around on the ship is lunacy. If the LA really wants to prove themselves, then give up what they have to give up. Apparently that hasn't been done yet to somebody's satisfaction and I don't think it's just Young's.

There aren't enough people to guard them in any case

Paladine
October 16th, 2010, 12:30 PM
Young could have vented the gate room in episode 19 and killed everyone, including Telford, so I would count that as being pretty merciful in my book.

Personally I think Young is a craptastic military leader, I like the actor, but the writers have done him no favors with his character.

But I believe Young's failures as a leader is an entire separate issue regarding the LA as prisoners. They came on board and were willing to kill SGC personnel to take control of the ship. Telford spent a long time as a spy, brainwashed or not. Young has no reason to trust them at this point.

No one in the LA survivors provides an essential function on the ship that is not already filled. Varro might be a good soldier. The SGC there has good soldiers. Koz might be a medic, the SGC crew has a medic already. Ginn is a technical, the SGC there has multiple technicals on board.

Just because Young has many failures as a military commander does not mean his ONE specific course of action with the LA prisoners is wrong.

As for Ginn and Varro's sincerity, Young does have a point. None of them want to get tossed out of the airlock. Ginn might have shot Dannic, but he tried to choke her to death, she has self interest in blowing him away. Varro might have lobbied to leave the SGC on a planet instead of executing them, but did anyone consider that the one person the LA was not going to murder or abandon was Rush? Do you think Rush, as a prisoner, would help the LA, if he believed he would get killed anyway? Young is right, there was self interest for the LA to not slaughter the SGC personnel.

Part of the point of the Wray/Young conversation in the hallway that ended in the fight in the lock down room was to show Wray that the situation with the prisoners was more complex than she could imagine. Let Wray get tortured like Rush was by Kiva for a few hours, then have her watch Kiva order another man strangled in front of her like Rush did, then watch Kiva shoot Rivers without mercy, on his knees, like TJ and Riley had to do, then let's see how she feels about giving the prisoners more rights.

Ginn is the girl right? She was shown in a preview kissing Eli wasn't she? Thats some good use for her. A potential love interest for Eli. Alot of nerds watch this show and we were seriously ticked off when that slut Chloe stood up our boy for Lt. Scott. So at least she will be a welcome addition. The main leader of the LA peeps ( still not familiar with their names yet ) also is seen a potential future love interest for TJ.

Sp!der
October 16th, 2010, 12:33 PM
I think Young is not doing the right thing with the Lucian Alliance, some people he can keep lock up who are dangerous like Simeon perhaps... but the guy who has the hoots for TJ and the tech lady are no more a threat to him than Rush, or am I wrong? In this case I agree... for the first time, with Wray.

tinerin
October 16th, 2010, 07:48 PM
Do you think Rush, as a prisoner, would help the LA, if he believed he would get killed anyway?

Yes, I do actually...he's actually probably the only person on the ship who would...


Let Wray get tortured like Rush was by Kiva for a few hours, then have her watch Kiva order another man strangled in front of her like Rush did, then watch Kiva shoot Rivers without mercy, on his knees, like TJ and Riley had to do, then let's see how she feels about giving the prisoners more rights.

That's like saying all North Koreans deserve to punished because of Kim Jong Il's actions...

garhkal
October 16th, 2010, 09:39 PM
Ginn is the girl right? She was shown in a preview kissing Eli wasn't she?

Nope.. I know some are rooting for her to BECOME a love interest for eli.

xxxevilgrinxxx
October 17th, 2010, 10:27 AM
I think Young is not doing the right thing with the Lucian Alliance, some people he can keep lock up who are dangerous like Simeon perhaps... but the guy who has the hoots for TJ and the tech lady are no more a threat to him than Rush, or am I wrong? In this case I agree... for the first time, with Wray.

how can we be sure who is a threat?
Maybe simeon is just more honest than the other two and wears his badassery right out in the open?
In any case, given Young's feelings for TJ, having Varro be all googly-eyed over TJ isn't likely to win him any brownie points with Young.
There's also the fact that these guys are criminals and that the people that are vouching for them - the IOA - are probably not seen that highly by Young either. In an upcoming episode Young is going to let those guys out. I can just imagine how many posts we're going to see where people will say that Young did wrong by letting them out. The guy can't win for losing :)

Shotty
October 17th, 2010, 05:38 PM
Sure, they can be released. Right after their trial and execution for the murders of multiple members of the expedition and an unborn child. They are an aggressive force that directly participated, not some abstract member that just has ties to criminal activity.

These guys did the killing.

They are lucky to be getting such good treatment and weren't put off ship. They aren't being inhumanely treated, they are being fed and being protected. I'm not sure what else some of you think prisoners of war deserve. Free access to the ship or something?

SGeff
October 17th, 2010, 07:34 PM
There's also the fact that these guys are criminals and that the people that are vouching for them - the IOA - are probably not seen that highly by Young either. In an upcoming episode

Sure the IOA see the risk, but like Young said they don't have to live with it. After all, the IOA just want information to make them look better, they don't care about the crew.

Forget about Simeon, think about Ginn. She was nearly choked to death by Dannic. And the next minute before you even realize it, she was holding a gun and shot Dannic in the back twice. So if a sweet girl like Ginn could kill somebody without a doubt, you really think you are safe when they are all out.

And you should think about what the crew will think. Dunning thought they are the enemies. And Park said it right on the point, "There is a room full of people who will kill me at first chance they get." Doesn't that mean enough? Not only Young, but other people agreed too. And Wray said "Human resouce is her job." But apparently, she cared about the 9 LA prisoners, and didn't care about what the rest of crew think.

That being said, I absolutely love Ginn, hope she will join the crew forever, so I understand some people said she was not dangerous, but I don't agree. Also Eli could need some tough girl to protect him.

tomstone
October 18th, 2010, 02:30 AM
The only comparison I can think of, for those who want the LA members released in some capacity on board, would you feel the same way if your children were on board. If your wife or husband? Someone related to you? Someone you loved? Could you live with it. Could you live with it if a LA member went rogue, grabbed a knife and stabbed your child in the throat and killed them? Would you want to take that risk? It's easy to sit on the sidelines when it costs you nothing. Put yourself in Young's shoes, what will it cost him? What has it already cost him?

I think Young is a horrible military commander. I also think he is in a desperate complex almost hopeless situation that is difficult and possibly impossible to actually manage. Easy to armchair quarterback him, but what if the body count was on your conscience?

I agree with all of the above. Though the numbers game goes on. With more manpower there are more supplies they can bring in. That is if the LA can get integrated. Varro obviously has control over those loyal to him and as it seems their main goal was to get what the Destiny brings, not killing everyone and be done with it. Now they are stuck just like the others and cooperation is the best way to survival.

kymeric
October 18th, 2010, 02:31 PM
Where? was it on the midway station.

it was awkwardly placed in the barracks room so u got to watch ur bunkmate poop. XD

morbosfist
October 18th, 2010, 02:40 PM
Dinner and a show. The designers must have had a sick sense of humor.

YutheGreat
October 18th, 2010, 07:57 PM
I think it will always be an issue. Though Simeon will probably have to go first. Maybe Varro dies protecting TJ or Varro kills him for the same reason before Young trusts them to be part of the crew.

No worries it will happen hopefully Varro and Ginn are still alive at that point. I think Ginn has potential. Kinda hoping for Eli-Ginn pairing but it is unlikely.

garhkal
October 19th, 2010, 03:39 AM
Well I think part of the show's dynamic is to show three viewpoints on any complex situation

Young's view - The military position
Wray's view - The civilian government's position
Rush's view - The pragmatic position, the scientific logical choice
..snip..
Rush has a point. There is a cost benefit equation for every person and every action on board Destiny. It is a numbers game for survival. X amount of air, Y amount of water, Z amount of food. He's right, sometimes what you feel doesn't matter compared to what works if the main point is to survive. What he misses is the essential humanity behind those choices. He still has to live with these choices and live with these people.


I like your analysis and actually agree. But i think there might be a 4th part to the equasion.. namely the rest of the crew.
And as to your analysis of rush.. spot on. People always hate "bean counters" but when you have to break all things down, that is always at the forefront.

Lets say my company develops a cure for aids... Should we market it? if we do eventually our customer base disappears (all people are cured).. How much do we charge? You will always see some saying it is too pricey or that govt this or that should pick up the tab.

Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble
October 22nd, 2010, 10:26 AM
I like your analysis and actually agree. But i think there might be a 4th part to the equasion.. namely the rest of the crew.
And as to your analysis of rush.. spot on. People always hate "bean counters" but when you have to break all things down, that is always at the forefront.

Lets say my company develops a cure for aids... Should we market it? if we do eventually our customer base disappears (all people are cured).. How much do we charge? You will always see some saying it is too pricey or that govt this or that should pick up the tab.

Why not give it out for free?

morbosfist
October 22nd, 2010, 12:37 PM
Why not give it out for free?Nothing is free. It costs money to produce cures/vaccines/etc. The best they could do would have it be covered under Medicare.

garhkal
October 23rd, 2010, 03:55 AM
Yup. If i spend X hours working with Y people to develop cure Z, it will take A cost for each dose of the cure being sold to if nothing else, recoup the cost of developing it. Not even looking into any aspect of profit.