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The_Asgard_live
October 12th, 2010, 07:35 PM
Maybe I missed something, but...

The argument goes, ZPM's can't do this, the Asgard couldn't have done that, the wormhole drive isn't capable of something or other... seen it in various threads.

Yet Destiny is what? million+ years old? So how come a ship seemingly much older than Destiny, with million+ year old tech can power Destiny's old style gate to dial earth, but tech and power supplies a million+ years more advanced supposedly can't?

And, why can Destiny's gate even make that connection? I thought Destiny style gates were all short range. Does that mean all the gates if given enough power can do that?

themeatcleaver
October 12th, 2010, 07:39 PM
i was more concerned with the fact that they had all that power and were trying(and succeeding) to steal ours! what are they trying to accomplish?

Kaiphantom
October 12th, 2010, 07:49 PM
It may be short range, but the implication is that with enough power, it's possible to dial all the way back to Earth. Technically speaking, the Ancients probably would have used several ZPM's in tandem to dial Destiny when the time came; that's power that Earth doesn't have (I think we only have one or two ZPM's). Perhaps they could have drawn power straight from the sun.

We simply don't have their power generation capabilities, even if we have some of their tech.

The Asgard are gone, but they might have had the ability to make power sources capable of dialing destiny. That's an interesting point, though; we have their database, so there should be some method of power generation in there. Whether or not we can build it is another question.

dtape
October 12th, 2010, 07:51 PM
in Unending, Carter was able to convert the teleporter into a replicator. She has probaly figured out how to do that again so they can just use that to make anything that they need.

HaMm3r
October 12th, 2010, 07:58 PM
You're forgetting that those aliens were aboard. We have no idea how they got there, how long they'd been there or what their purpose was. But, perhaps they had something to do with the increased power levels. The original design of the seeder ship may not have had sufficient power, but the aliens may have made some modifications.

We won't really ever know unless Destiny goes back to the seeder ship, meets up with another seeder or they run into the aliens again.

The_Asgard_live
October 12th, 2010, 08:07 PM
It may be short range, but the implication is that with enough power, it's possible to dial all the way back to Earth.

So then, would the implication of the implication be that the Blues could dial destiny from any of the gates on the planets out of range? Same for the stranded LA? They would need only a relatively small power boost compared the demands to get to earth. Even if out of range, they are in the neighborhood so to speak.


Technically speaking, the Ancients probably would have used several ZPM's in tandem to dial Destiny when the time came; that's power that Earth doesn't have (I think we only have one or two ZPM's). Perhaps they could have drawn power straight from the sun. We simply don't have their power generation capabilities, even if we have some of their tech.

I don't know, just doesn't seem to satisfy my inner geek that tech 1 million years more advanced can't do what a million year old solar powered ship can. Do Destiny class ships even generate power or simply store them in capacitors? We can make those can't we?

Not to mention a gate boosting galaxy dialing O'neill device is powered by a single staff weapon.

morbosfist
October 12th, 2010, 08:36 PM
So then, would the implication of the implication be that the Blues could dial destiny from any of the gates on the planets out of range? Same for the stranded LA? They would need only a relatively small power boost compared the demands to get to earth. Even if out of range, they are in the neighborhood so to speak.

I don't know, just doesn't seem to satisfy my inner geek that tech 1 million years more advanced can't do what a million year old solar powered ship can. Do Destiny class ships even generate power or simply store them in capacitors? We can make those can't we?

Not to mention a gate boosting galaxy dialing O'neill device is powered by a single staff weapon.O'Neill's device used the full charge of a staff weapon power cell, and those things are made to basically never need recharging.

The seed ships have very little need for living space. That's a lot more internal volume for power storage.

Abiron
October 12th, 2010, 08:53 PM
O'Neill's device used the full charge of a staff weapon power cell, and those things are made to basically never need recharging.

The seed ships have very little need for living space. That's a lot more internal volume for power storage.

I have always assumed that O'Neill overloaded the liquid naquadah from the staff weapon in a single concentrated burst. It apparently fried the device. And it wasn't providing all of the power necessary for the gate, just a boost in addition to whatever else it could draw from whatever reactor(s) it's already hooked up to.

As for the seeders, my guess is that the gate factory takes a lot more power than all of the other systems combined. With that offline, there should be plenty of spare juice.

The_Asgard_live
October 12th, 2010, 08:59 PM
i was more concerned with the fact that they had all that power and were trying(and succeeding) to steal ours! what are they trying to accomplish?
I didn't read much into it other than they simply reversed the process.


You're forgetting that those aliens were aboard. We have no idea how they got there, how long they'd been there or what their purpose was. But, perhaps they had something to do with the increased power levels. The original design of the seeder ship may not have had sufficient power, but the aliens may have made some modifications.

Its possible they did, however none of the science geeks seemed to express that thought. They didn't act like anything was out of the ordinary, more like the ship was just more fully charged than Destiny.


O'Neill's device used the full charge of a staff weapon power cell, and those things are made to basically never need recharging.

The seed ships have very little need for living space. That's a lot more internal volume for power storage.

Yes, but the staff weapons were a dime a dozen. I'm just pointing out how little power was required and how easy it was to come by.

Interesting theory on the internal volume. However, that extra volume is likely taken up by the stargate factory and raw materials storage? Also, other than for the production of stargates, why would that ship need huge power reserves, as you point out, its not a human crew ship.

Kaiphantom
October 12th, 2010, 09:52 PM
So then, would the implication of the implication be that the Blues could dial destiny from any of the gates on the planets out of range? Same for the stranded LA? They would need only a relatively small power boost compared the demands to get to earth. Even if out of range, they are in the neighborhood so to speak.

They'd need the 9 chevron address to dial Destiny, but yes, if the Blues could work the stargates and provide sufficient power, they should be able to board Destiny.


I don't know, just doesn't seem to satisfy my inner geek that tech 1 million years more advanced can't do what a million year old solar powered ship can. Do Destiny class ships even generate power or simply store them in capacitors? We can make those can't we?

There are a few things you need to keep in mind: Destiny and the seeder ships are recharged via those special things that lower under the "wings." Destiny only has one set of those working (we only see one set lower when it dips into the sun). Destiny's batteries are also deteriorated or damaged that they can only hold about 40% of their normal power load. The seeder ship had all it's capacitors fully charged. What they did was try to channel the seeder ship's power directly to the gate along with Destiny's current reserve.

But I'm not sure where you're getting the "tech 1 million years more advanced" part from. What are you thinking of? The only power source that's 1 million more years advanced is the ZPM. And we simply don't have enough of them to generate the power needed to dial destiny. Essentially, 1 ZPM produces less power than a Naquadria-laced Icarus planet. Remember, the ancients used 3 ZPM's to fully power Atlantis. You're assuming ZPM's are the be-all, end-all of power generation, but we don't really know. ZPM's seem to be a handy battery, in that you can carry it in one hand and it can provide a lot of power for a city. But they do have limits; Atlantis's shield would have been drained in a matter of hours with the Asuran beam on it, even with a ZPM.

The_Asgard_live
October 12th, 2010, 10:14 PM
There are a few things you need to keep in mind: Destiny and the seeder ships are recharged via those special things that lower under the "wings." Destiny only has one set of those working (we only see one set lower when it dips into the sun). Destiny's batteries are also deteriorated or damaged that they can only hold about 40% of their normal power load. The seeder ship had all it's capacitors fully charged. What they did was try to channel the seeder ship's power directly to the gate along with Destiny's current reserve.

Agreed. Let me clarify what I was saying though.

Destiny is old, but broke. I know.
Seeder ship is older, but seemingly intact and what Destiny should be (power wise)

Both ships power themselves the same way. That 'way' appears to be to simply store energy. For simplicity sake, they are ships that seem to be like giant rechargeable batteries that plug themselves into the sun to recharge. The magic seems to be in the fact that they are large batteries not how they charge them. No naquida-ion-naquadria-zpm blah blah needed.


But I'm not sure where you're getting the "tech 1 million years more advanced" part from. What are you thinking of? The only power source that's 1 million more years advanced is the ZPM. And we simply don't have enough of them to generate the power needed to dial destiny.

Its not about the generation though, its about the storage. So this begs the question. The ancients 1 million years ago give or take, built ships that when fully powered had the power by your calculations of 'several' zpms. 1 million years later their ships are powered with tech less powerful than a single zpm? Aurora class?

In other words, a fully charged destiny with shields should be able to hold off an attack by the wraith for how long? Why wouldn't they just fly Atlantis into the sun, park it there, use the scoopers and never leave. They could fend off an attack as long as the sun was viable, indefinitely.

Its like there is a disconnect, power supply/storage got less efficient the more advanced they got? and not just like 20 or 50 years, but 1,000,000 years advancement

PG15
October 12th, 2010, 11:17 PM
Well, there is a chance that Ancient society regressed through the millions of years that they existed. The Plague seemed to have created a bottleneck, majorly breaking down Ancient culture and society. Technology could've gotten less efficient as knowledge is lost.

On the other hand, this could also be explained by the difference in purposes. The Destiny is supposedly a very important ship designed to last for millions of years out in the Universe alone; it needs the power for that mission. Auroras were dime a dozen (relatively speaking) and made for battles alongside other Ancient ships in a galaxy filled with Ancients.

Also, ZPMs are better in the sense that you can have spares, so that if your current one runs out of juice, you can just replace it mid-mission. If Destiny ran out of sun power before it got to another star, then it's pretty much screwed.

thekillman
October 13th, 2010, 04:16 AM
what if the ancient's advancement, represented in a graph, becomes asymptotic along the time axis?

shortly said, the more advanced you are, the harder it becomes to become more advanced. what if the ancients, around their HEIGHT (of their empire, as stated by the writers, when Destiny was launched), were pretty much with their head against the ceiling, so to speak.

let's not forget that while a ZPM is a tiny device with a lot of power, it's possible Destiny has a self-contained region of subspace used for power STORAGE, the size of several rooms?

The_Asgard_live
October 13th, 2010, 04:55 AM
what if the ancient's advancement, represented in a graph, becomes asymptotic along the time axis?

shortly said, the more advanced you are, the harder it becomes to become more advanced. what if the ancients, around their HEIGHT (of their empire, as stated by the writers, when Destiny was launched), were pretty much with their head against the ceiling, so to speak.

This would be true if knowledge is finite and the more you know the less there is to learn/advance. That doesn't seem to be the case though.


let's not forget that while a ZPM is a tiny device with a lot of power, it's possible Destiny has a self-contained region of subspace used for power STORAGE, the size of several rooms?
A ZPM the size of several rooms? There is nothing from SGU that suggests thats how power is stored on Destiny. Also my understanding of a ZPM is that you can not recharge them, ZPM size, or room size.

coZma
October 13th, 2010, 05:56 AM
We don't really know what it takes to construct a ship like Destiny. Tapping the power of stars may require specialized shields that are not adequate for combat and creating shields that work fine for both tasks might be so hard that it's not worth it.The ancients left after the plague might not had the resources and the man power to build more. Or maybe they developed shields that were impenetrable with less power delivered to them and the capability of storing so much energy was not necessary anymore. I mean with all that power and Destiny's shield doesn't seem to be more powerful than that of a Ha'tak. Once they made advancement in shield technology and in more energy efficient systems they figured that they'll do just fine powered only by ZPMs.

garhkal
October 13th, 2010, 06:17 AM
I think with these gates, it is more that the additional power unlocks the gates capacity to go further... and as to why they needed the seeder ship, i feel it is cause if i hae one hose with holes in (remember destinies power conduits are damaged), i won't get all the water out i need. BUT if i have 2, i will...

blueintegraboy
October 13th, 2010, 06:53 AM
Anybody figure out why the Atlantis gate was the only gate in the Pegasus that was capable of dialing Earth, while the Asuran gate could not even though they had many ZPMs?

I mean, if we are saying that any gate can go anywhere with enough energy, then why did the Asurans not go to Earth?

MattSilver 3k
October 13th, 2010, 06:55 AM
Anybody figure out why the Atlantis gate was the only gate in the Pegasus that was capable of dialing Earth, while the Asuran gate could not even though they had many ZPMs?

I mean, if we are saying that any gate can go anywhere with enough energy, then why did the Asurans not go to Earth?

A special control crystal was required if I recall correctly.

blueintegraboy
October 13th, 2010, 07:02 AM
A special control crystal was required if I recall correctly.

So the Pegasus gates were built with a lock-out to dial Earth. I guess they were stargate v.3, so I guess they could have been built like that.

Hohenzollern
October 13th, 2010, 07:22 AM
Most importantly; the power reversal... Rush is now quite obsessed knowing what Destiny's true mission is (Aftermath). He was unfazed by the gate foundry; and the new Alien standing right there; as he worked on the console.

Consider how he, again, as in first season was maneuvering for the crew to get off/home and he is left behind alone. When it became obvious Young would not allow this (stated he was sending reinforcements); Rush initiated the power reversal to kill the gate possibly sending EVERYONE home (Young would have taken Rush back); and thus everyone continuing (with Rush) on Destiny. Re Rush's "conscience?Franklin?" comments at the epilogue.

Kaiphantom
October 13th, 2010, 07:50 AM
Its not about the generation though, its about the storage. So this begs the question. The ancients 1 million years ago give or take, built ships that when fully powered had the power by your calculations of 'several' zpms. 1 million years later their ships are powered with tech less powerful than a single zpm? Aurora class?

The only thing that had the power of several ZPM's was their Atlantis-type cities, and that was the zenith of their civilization. An Aurora class was a smaller ship with more mass-production type qualities. Think of it this way:

Destiny was designed to be one-of-a-kind. There was a lot of hi-tech stuff that went into it, but as a result, it would have "cost" more (even if money was no object, there is a cost in resources used). It's not the type of thing to mass produce. For the Ancients, a ZPM powered Aurora worked perfectly fine for cruising about the local galaxy.


In other words, a fully charged destiny with shields should be able to hold off an attack by the wraith for how long? Why wouldn't they just fly Atlantis into the sun, park it there, use the scoopers and never leave. They could fend off an attack as long as the sun was viable, indefinitely.

There is seemingly a bit of a disconnect because TPTB introduced the sun-refueling technique in SGU. But ultimately, I don't think it matters. Even if they could fly Atlantis into the sun and scoop up energy, they would be trapped there. They wouldn't be able to attack back, and all the wraith had to do would be to blockade them. If all you can do is sit there in the sun, trapped in your city, then what is the point of being there?

Also, remember the Ancients lost because the Wraith had massive numbers. That means that, even if their weapons were weaker, they were multiplied by an incredibly large number. Sooner or later, shields are going to fail.


Its like there is a disconnect, power supply/storage got less efficient the more advanced they got? and not just like 20 or 50 years, but 1,000,000 years advancement

A ZPM handles both power generation and storage. In that light, once the ZPM was developed and they realized it was in a handy-dandy size, there wouldn't have been much need to continue advancement of regular storage. Not when you can just plug in a fresh new battery and you can manufacture those fairly easily. So yes, in one respect, Destiny probably was the peak of their traditional energy storage. Once the ZPM came along, it was no longer necessary.

In some respects, it's like someone saying: "Why buy a solar-powered car? I can buy a gasoline one for much cheaper, and refueling isn't an issue." Destiny is Solar-powered, but the Ancients had plenty of gas to refuel their tech a million years later.

Descended
October 13th, 2010, 07:56 AM
I think Rush did reverse the power transfer and the aliens messing with the controls was just a red herring... he then was really quick to separate and leave the seeder ship behind.

There were a dozen aliens but Destiny has many more military personnel (even more if you armed the LA to fight the aliens) - I don't understand why Young didn't send a military team over there to kill the aliens. Even if all the power was drained from Destiny as long as you seized control of the seeder ship you could repower it (and its not like it could go anywhere with a totally disable Destiny docked on it)

He gave up on that way home pretty damn quickly considering it is the first real chance we have seen them have. Reminds me of Voyager where every week they were shown a way home but they never really pursued them beyond trying once and never tried to make them work.

The_Asgard_live
October 13th, 2010, 08:08 AM
We don't really know what it takes to construct a ship like Destiny.
Not in an explicit sense we don't, but we do know it takes 1 million year old ancient tech to build one. Should be a breeze a million years later.


Tapping the power of stars may require specialized shields that are not adequate for combat and creating shields that work fine for both tasks might be so hard that it's not worth it.The ancients left after the plague might not had the resources and the man power to build more. Or maybe they developed shields that were impenetrable with less power delivered to them and the capability of storing so much energy was not necessary anymore. I mean with all that power and Destiny's shield doesn't seem to be more powerful than that of a Ha'tak. Once they made advancement in shield technology and in more energy efficient systems they figured that they'll do just fine powered only by ZPMs.
It just doesn't make sense to me. Its the storage of power that important. A Destiny class ship (or at least the seeder variety) can store multiple ZPM's worth of power.

Now I know the ancients were portrayed as tactical morons, but if you could build ships with the power storing capabilities of Destiny, that can deliver multiple ZPMs worth of power in a battle or whatever, and to recharge need only seek out the nearest star, why build ships and send them out to battle powered with a single ZPM device or less that can only be replaced by visiting the nearest ZPM factory.


A special control crystal was required if I recall correctly.

Hmmmm sounds right, but now that I think of it, thats kind of useless isn't it? Unless all MW gates are locked out? Bad guy would just dial a different gate in the MW. Twice through the gate instead of once.

The_Asgard_live
October 13th, 2010, 08:27 AM
Destiny was designed to be one-of-a-kind. There was a lot of hi-tech stuff that went into it, but as a result, it would have "cost" more (even if money was no object, there is a cost in resources used). It's not the type of thing to mass produce. For the Ancients, a ZPM powered Aurora worked perfectly fine for cruising about the local galaxy.

Hi-tech 1 million years ago. Though, I agree, a ZPM was perfectly fine until it wasn't.


There is seemingly a bit of a disconnect because TPTB introduced the sun-refueling technique in SGU. But ultimately, I don't think it matters. Even if they could fly Atlantis into the sun and scoop up energy, they would be trapped there. They wouldn't be able to attack back, and all the wraith had to do would be to blockade them. If all you can do is sit there in the sun, trapped in your city, then what is the point of being there?

Not true. First, individuals could gate in an out to anywhere they want. And since they would be essentially plugged into a power source at all times, their shields should never give way. So why couldn't they park themselves there, launch drones and pick off wraith indefinitely? If drones weren't manufactured on site, again, the gate works. If for some reason they should want to leave, their fully charged shields would only need to sustain hits until they enter into hyperspace.

OboeTheres
October 13th, 2010, 08:51 AM
Not in an explicit sense we don't, but we do know it takes 1 million year old ancient tech to build one. Should be a breeze a million years later.

Theoretically, yes. Unfortunately, society doesn't always progress in what might seem like a logical pattern.

When looking at our own society, maybe the Apollo program would be a good thing to compare Destiny to. We built spaceships that could go to the moon, and we went there. Then, instead of using new technology to build better spaceships to go to the moon, we just sort of stopped. Going to the moon just wasn't that important to us anymore, and we built a different sort of spaceship that could do different things.

Maybe Destiny was like this. Maybe for a while there was a lot of interest in the 'great unknown' and the ancients got all excited about it, and made all the seeder ships and the destiny. Maybe after a few generations interest simply waned, and they went about doing things closer to home, things that didn't require the technology that they used for the destiny. They simply started developing in a different direction, and didn't necessarily look back. After half a million years, Destiny would probably be no more than a footnote in history, and by the time of Atlantis, very few probably even knew it had ever set out.

Just a maybe.

Kaiphantom
October 13th, 2010, 08:52 AM
Now I know the ancients were portrayed as tactical morons, but if you could build ships with the power storing capabilities of Destiny, that can deliver multiple ZPMs worth of power in a battle or whatever, and to recharge need only seek out the nearest star, why build ships and send them out to battle powered with a single ZPM device or less that can only be replaced by visiting the nearest ZPM factory.

You're assuming all shields are created equal. If you get into physics, you'll learn that there are different particles that can only be blocked certain ways. Thus it makes logical sense that the more things a shield can defend against, the more power it draws. Also, any other special functions you tie into the shields can cause it to draw more power. I get the feeling Destiny's shield is a power hog because it was deliberately built with the function to go into a star and draw power. Destiny wasn't a battleship; it wasn't designed for extended firefights. And I'd be willing to bet Aurora class ship shields were designed to be more power efficient so they could last longer, rather than add the "be able to go into a sun and draw power" variety. I think if they added that function, Aurora-class shields wouldn't have been nearly as strong.

Also, you have to recall that matter was actually passing through Destiny's shields. Thus, any ship going into a sun to recharge is technically vulnerable to enemy weapons.


Hi-tech 1 million years ago.

You should realize that your age range isn't quite exact, and we aren't sure exactly when Destiny was launched. It's possible that Destiny was launched only a thousand years before the Ancient civilization fell. Maybe only a couple hundred. The ship is "billions of light years" from Earth, but it's traveling Faster Than Light and we don't know how much faster than light it's traveling. Seems to be pretty darn quick, though.


Not true. First, individuals could gate in an out to anywhere they want. And since they would be essentially plugged into a power source at all times, their shields should never give way. So why couldn't they park themselves there, launch drones and pick off wraith indefinitely? If drones weren't manufactured on site, again, the gate works. If for some reason they should want to leave, their fully charged shields would only need to sustain hits until they enter into hyperspace.

Drones would be destroyed in the Sun's corona; it's really frickin' hot in the Sun's corona, hotter than deeper inside the star. Also, as we learn in "Red Sky" the ancients had put safety protocols into the gate to prevent the wormhole from crossing a star, as Bad Things could happen. Thus, gating in and out while inside a star is a bad idea.

As for "fully charged shields would only need to sustain hits until they enter hyperspace" that wouldn't work if their shields failed 5 seconds after leaving the sun due to massed wraith presence sitting outside with weapons locked, ready to shoot. And they don't have to even fail, really. As we've seen, Atlantis shields require very little power when nothing is hitting it, but power is drained proportionally to the forces being applied. And the startup to the star drive requires 3 ZPM's; in other words, a whole LOT of power. The wraith would only need to mass enough firepower to drain Atlantis's power via their shields until the star drive didn't have enough juice to enter hyperspace.

The_Asgard_live
October 13th, 2010, 01:34 PM
You're assuming all shields are created equal.

Yes and no. I agree that everything you said is possible. Its more about the power storage for me, but yes, I was assuming like a hyperdrive, a shield, the more power, the better performance. For example, when they plugged in the single ZPM into Atlantis they were able to sit back and watch several wraith hives bombard Atlantis to no effect other than a light show.


Also, you have to recall that matter was actually passing through Destiny's shields. Thus, any ship going into a sun to recharge is technically vulnerable to enemy weapons.

True but drones are able to pass through shields, as were the bad Asgard, yet the city was still protected, so I was figuring they weren't vulnerable.


You should realize that your age range isn't quite exact

Yeah, I know there is some question about it. Somewhere between hundreds of thousands and millions?


Drones would be destroyed in the Sun's corona; it's really frickin' hot in the Sun's corona, hotter than deeper inside the star.

Thought of this, decided they would work anyway :) 50/50 shot.


Also, as we learn in "Red Sky" the ancients had put safety protocols into the gate to prevent the wormhole from crossing a star, as Bad Things could happen. Thus, gating in and out while inside a star is a bad idea.

Didn't think of this, good point. Though since they are not actually engulfed in the sun, I think this just means the gates they could get to would be limited to what side of the sun they are on if that makes sense.


As for "fully charged shields would only need to sustain hits until they enter hyperspace" that wouldn't work if their shields failed 5 seconds after leaving the sun due to massed wraith presence sitting outside with weapons locked, ready to shoot. And they don't have to even fail, really. As we've seen, Atlantis shields require very little power when nothing is hitting it, but power is drained proportionally to the forces being applied. And the startup to the star drive requires 3 ZPM's; in other words, a whole LOT of power. The wraith would only need to mass enough firepower to drain Atlantis's power via their shields until the star drive didn't have enough juice to enter hyperspace.
Yeah but see above they plugged just *1* ZPM into Atlantis and took a bombardment to no effect. And didn't McKay say they could go on like that for days? If Atlantis was in the sun, plugged in and fully powering itself and shields to the tune of several or more ZPMs I don't see it being an issue. The hives would exhaust themselves (can they fire indefinitely? don't they have power issues of their own?) And if the wraith were stupid enough to bring in the bulk of their hives to one place, it'd be the best trap ever.

Interesting about the star drive, I always thought that had more to do with getting the city into space? If its already in space is it still such a hog?

The_Asgard_live
October 13th, 2010, 01:49 PM
Theoretically, yes. Unfortunately, society doesn't always progress in what might seem like a logical pattern.

When looking at our own society, maybe the Apollo program would be a good thing to compare Destiny to. We built spaceships that could go to the moon, and we went there. Then, instead of using new technology to build better spaceships to go to the moon, we just sort of stopped. Going to the moon just wasn't that important to us anymore, and we built a different sort of spaceship that could do different things.

Maybe Destiny was like this. Maybe for a while there was a lot of interest in the 'great unknown' and the ancients got all excited about it, and made all the seeder ships and the destiny. Maybe after a few generations interest simply waned, and they went about doing things closer to home, things that didn't require the technology that they used for the destiny. They simply started developing in a different direction, and didn't necessarily look back. After half a million years, Destiny would probably be no more than a footnote in history, and by the time of Atlantis, very few probably even knew it had ever set out.

Just a maybe.
All plausible I suppose. Though not very satisfying. Ignore everything I was saying about shields and this and that. The argument has been (by those that take this point of view) that Destiny is more or less unreachable. That even the ancients couldn't get there because its farther out than even they had anticipated, let alone the Asgard or their knowledge, and nothing short of a ridiculous number of ZPMs or Icurus planet can do it. And yet in this episode a million+? year old space ship can do it. And the ship doesn't do it with a magic power generating device, but your average sun + good power storage.

I think the writers have some work to do.

Kaiphantom
October 13th, 2010, 02:38 PM
True but drones are able to pass through shields, as were the bad Asgard, yet the city was still protected, so I was figuring they weren't vulnerable.

I can rationalize that as drones being specifically designed to pass through, and thus more difficult for the Wraith to reproduce that. Sun gases, however, are a more known quantity.


Yeah, I know there is some question about it. Somewhere between hundreds of thousands and millions?

Impossible to say. We have no real time frame, except before the Ancient ATA gene technology.


Didn't think of this, good point. Though since they are not actually engulfed in the sun, I think this just means the gates they could get to would be limited to what side of the sun they are on if that makes sense.

For them to be far enough in to scoop up energy, they would be in it enough. Remember, the issue with Red Sky was the wormhole picking up an element and landing it in a sun.


Yeah but see above they plugged just *1* ZPM into Atlantis and took a bombardment to no effect. And didn't McKay say they could go on like that for days? If Atlantis was in the sun, plugged in and fully powering itself and shields to the tune of several or more ZPMs I don't see it being an issue. The hives would exhaust themselves (can they fire indefinitely? don't they have power issues of their own?) And if the wraith were stupid enough to bring in the bulk of their hives to one place, it'd be the best trap ever.

Yeah, but under that bombardment, they were informed the shield would only last a limited time(I can't remember exactly how long, but it came up twice; once with wraith and once with Asurans). The Atlantis shield is very special, in that it can block everything as long as power is supplied. It's not like other shields which can fail eventually, even when there is still power.

But you can also look at this as part of the Ancient stupidity (they did a LOT of dumb things). No one thought to ask, "Hey, now that we have this new, nifty Atlantis-type shield which can block anything as long as it has power, why don't we dig up that old star-power harvesting tech we abandoned long ago and park our city in the sun?" I mean, they pretty much forgot about Destiny, so it wouldn't be too surprising they forgot about other old tech. For an advanced race, they weren't too bright...


Interesting about the star drive, I always thought that had more to do with getting the city into space? If its already in space is it still such a hog?

According to McKay, the Star Drive uses most of the energy for powering up and entering hyperspace. Once it is in hyperspace, it requires very little. It's unclear whether part of that is leaving a planet's atmosphere or not, though they did use a that drilling station for a good deal of power before they left the atmosphere. At any rate, the wraith would only need X amount of ships to deliver Y amount of firepower in order to deplete the shields in Z amount of time before it had time to jump.

geddarkstorm
October 13th, 2010, 05:02 PM
All plausible I suppose. Though not very satisfying. Ignore everything I was saying about shields and this and that. The argument has been (by those that take this point of view) that Destiny is more or less unreachable. That even the ancients couldn't get there because its farther out than even they had anticipated, let alone the Asgard or their knowledge, and nothing short of a ridiculous number of ZPMs or Icurus planet can do it. And yet in this episode a million+? year old space ship can do it. And the ship doesn't do it with a magic power generating device, but your average sun + good power storage.

I think the writers have some work to do.

No one said the Ancients couldn't reach Destiny. They never actually tried. Their civilization fell and then the few remnants went on to ascend. Destiny was totally forgotten in favor or ascension. Moreover, who said the Asgard ever knew about Destiny?

Power might not even be that big an issue, knowing the actual address however, is. I don't remember them ever saying a ZPM couldn't reach Destiny, but I do know ZPMs are too precious too few, and Earth has all of two. One almost depleted (in Atlantis) and one locked into Odyssey, that's it.

Now, if we knew how ZPMs were made.. that'd add a lot to the discussion.

The_Asgard_live
October 13th, 2010, 06:58 PM
No one said the Ancients couldn't reach Destiny. They never actually tried. Their civilization fell and then the few remnants went on to ascend. Destiny was totally forgotten in favor or ascension. Moreover, who said the Asgard ever knew about Destiny?

Power might not even be that big an issue, knowing the actual address however, is. I don't remember them ever saying a ZPM couldn't reach Destiny, but I do know ZPMs are too precious too few, and Earth has all of two. One almost depleted (in Atlantis) and one locked into Odyssey, that's it.

Now, if we knew how ZPMs were made.. that'd add a lot to the discussion.
I think you are misinterpreting my post. I'm saying there have been several discussion threads about whether or not its possible to reach Destiny. You can search for them and read for yourself. I think you will absolutely find forum users making the argument that its difficult to the point of almost impossible to reach destiny. Nothing short of dozens to hundreds of ZPM will do it. Asgard couldn't have helped, and neither can their core. Juiced up ships can't, and at this point even the ancients probably couldn't etc. etc... I'm sure you'll find all those kind of arguments in those threads.

I think this episode is kind of a game changer in discussions like that since it was a million+- year old ship and a short range gate that seems to be able to do it. At least the science geeks on the show seemed to accept that there is no reason it shouldn't work.

So, either a Destiny class ship (wicked old tech) can store the power of dozen's to 100's of ZPMs (something that seemingly is almost impossible to do in present time) and would seem quite ridiculous, or perhaps powering up the gate to dial back and forth just isn't that hard.

Again, Destiny isn't doing it with some magic power generating device, or rare mineral. Its all about the storage. Earth can't build subspace in a bottle, but how about destiny style capacitors?

Kaiphantom
October 13th, 2010, 07:34 PM
I think you are misinterpreting my post. I'm saying there have been several discussion threads about whether or not its possible to reach Destiny. You can search for them and read for yourself. I think you will absolutely find forum users making the argument that its difficult to the point of almost impossible to reach destiny. Nothing short of dozens to hundreds of ZPM will do it. Asgard couldn't have helped, and neither can their core. Juiced up ships can't, and at this point even the ancients probably couldn't etc. etc... I'm sure you'll find all those kind of arguments in those threads.

Considering we don't know how well a ZPM stacks up to a Naquadria planet, I'm not sure you can say the Ancients wouldn't be able to reach Destiny. Considering they can make ZPM's, I assume they'd make enough to enable the trip.


So, either a Destiny class ship (wicked old tech) can store the power of dozen's to 100's of ZPMs (something that seemingly is almost impossible to do in present time) and would seem quite ridiculous, or perhaps powering up the gate to dial back and forth just isn't that hard.

Again, Destiny isn't doing it with some magic power generating device, or rare mineral. Its all about the storage. Earth can't build subspace in a bottle, but how about destiny style capacitors?

It does seem like Destiny can store quite a bit of power, the equivalent of an Icarus planet at full charge at least. Destiny is ultimately Ancient tech, and is still light years ahead of what we can do. We simply cannot generate the power right now to make the trip.

Stormtrooper
October 13th, 2010, 08:01 PM
I'm sure a bunch of neutrino-ion generators could do the trick... Don't forget about the Asgard Legacy. Either that, or a perfected Project Arcturus.

RobertF
October 13th, 2010, 08:45 PM
I wonder if the seeder ships are laying a trail of stargates between galaxies as well as inside each galaxy they pass through? Maybe a continuous chain of stargate wormholes could connect Destiny with Earth using significantly less power than one big wormhole requiring multiple ZPMs.

Also we don't know how far the Destiny and seeder ships have flown from the Milky Way during the past million years. The ships may not be on a continuous outbound flight vector, but instead on a more circuitous route or a steadily widening spiral. This makes sense if the Ancients are interested in colonizing nearby galaxies within several tens of millions of light years of the Milky Way, rather than a string of galaxies out to a hundred million light years from the Milky Way. If so, then perhaps the Destiny isn't so far from the Milky Way that the power equivalent of a few ZPMs are all that is necessary to connect with the stargate on Earth.

But there was no mention of either possibility in the episode, so this is only speculation.

Abiron
October 13th, 2010, 08:47 PM
One thing that I think is being forgotten here is that there is likely a big difference between a gate in the MW dialing Destiny and the gate on Destiny dialing home.

As others have posited in the tech forum, the fact that a single 9-chevron address is used to reach Destiny seems to indicate that the calling gate needs to send a signal out to find Destiny prior to any possibility of connection. This address is not a spatial reference; it's a special address that only goes to one endpoint, and that endpoint is moving (sometimes at FTL speeds) away from the sending gate. So the sending gate likely needs enormous power to send a subspace signal that Destiny can detect - even at FTL - and respond to. Once the sending gate "locates" Destiny, the ship stops what it's doing and comes to a stop, waiting for the sending gate to connect. Other Destiny-style gates cannot dial the ship while it's in FTL.

On the flipside, initiating a gate connection from Destiny to a gate in the MW is a point-to-point dial, just like every other dialing we've ever seen. I assume there is a set of calculations that need to be done by the Destiny's computers (or Eli) to deal with the distance factor, and that the return address is an 8-chevron one, not 9. (We have yet to see a successful dial back to the MW, so that's just speculation.) Even with the massive increased distance, I'm thinking that a dial from Destiny to any gate in the MW requires an order of magnitude less power than a dial from the MW to the 9-chevron "code" of Destiny, because the former is point-to-point while the latter is a sort of seek-and-find transmission.

If I'm right, it also begs the question: If we knew how to calculate for an 8-chevron dial from the MW and knew where Destiny was in relation to the dialing gate, could we dial Destiny with an 8-chevron address requiring a lot less power?

morbosfist
October 13th, 2010, 08:52 PM
If I'm right, it also begs the question: If we knew how to calculate for an 8-chevron dial from the MW and knew where Destiny was in relation to the dialing gate, could we dial Destiny with an 8-chevron address requiring a lot less power?Destiny stops in empty space. Normal addresses use planetary targeting. Destiny would have to stop in orbit of a planet of fairly close, and even then calculating the proper location when Destiny is billions of light-years away would be nigh-impossible, assuming they even have an idea of how to dial intergalactically beyond the addresses that they have found.

The_Asgard_live
October 13th, 2010, 09:53 PM
One thing that I think is being forgotten here is that there is likely a big difference between a gate in the MW dialing Destiny and the gate on Destiny dialing home.

...

If I'm right, it also begs the question: If we knew how to calculate for an 8-chevron dial from the MW and knew where Destiny was in relation to the dialing gate, could we dial Destiny with an 8-chevron address requiring a lot less power?
Interesting speculation. And if you are right, technically earth wouldn't need to calculate Destiny's exact location to see huge power savings, not after they dialed it the first time? Since earth has its own dialing device, after they connect to Destiny once, shouldn't/couldn't each subsequent connection search be narrowed down to a very small (relatively) band of space? Instead of searching the entire universe, you have a very targeted search now because you knew where the ship was recently?

That said, there is one bit from the show that seems to contradict your theory, not directly, but by implication. Rush faked an Icarus planet in one of the earlier episodes? The implication of that being they need an Icarus planet's worth of power on their end as well.


I wonder if the seeder ships are laying a trail of stargates between galaxies as well as inside each galaxy they pass through? Maybe a continuous chain of stargate wormholes could connect Destiny with Earth using significantly less power than one big wormhole requiring multiple ZPMs.

Hmmm a McKay Bridge? I don't think so (who knows for sure) but given what we seemed to have confirmed in this episode, that old style gates can do long distance, I dont think it matters. O'neill devices attached to those gates might allow you to galaxy hop backwards right back to earth. If earth ever could send supplies through (or destiny crew make them) it would be what? 50-100? 100-200? hops backwards?


Also we don't know how far the Destiny and seeder ships have flown from the Milky Way during the past million years. The ships may not be on a continuous outbound flight vector, but instead on a more circuitous route or a steadily widening spiral.

Based on the map presented in the first episodes it does seem to be more of a straight line than a spiral.

Abiron
October 13th, 2010, 11:17 PM
As to the need for a planet for targeting: I don't see why. A normal gate address is a 3-dimensional area of space. For Milky Way gates, that is a planet, but a gate should be able to connect to another gate if the address finds a target, no matter whether it's on a planet, in orbit, or just sitting in interplanetary space. If not, canon things like the gates on the Midway station or the gate used to dial into the Ori supergate from Pegasus wouldn't have worked.

As for Rush's lie about the naquadria-laced planet for dialing home: I think of that as his way of making his fabrication make sense to everyone, including the non-scientifically minded folks aboard. He gave them something that they could easily understand, i.e., a planet with the necessary power to dial home. They know it took a planet like that to get here, so they would easily accept that the same kind of planet would allow them to go home. And in any event, a planet with that kind of geology would allow them to dial home, if power is the only concern. I'm just not sure that it would take as much juice to dial home as it took to dial Destiny in the first place.

morbosfist
October 13th, 2010, 11:27 PM
As to the need for a planet for targeting: I don't see why. A normal gate address is a 3-dimensional area of space. For Milky Way gates, that is a planet, but a gate should be able to connect to another gate if the address finds a target, no matter whether it's on a planet, in orbit, or just sitting in interplanetary space. If not, canon things like the gates on the Midway station or the gate used to dial into the Ori supergate from Pegasus wouldn't have worked.Those are special circumstances. Midway used a special macro that overrode basic gate operating procedure. The Ori Supergate was built in orbit of a planet, so it's still technically planetary targeting.

thekillman
October 13th, 2010, 11:51 PM
A ZPM the size of several rooms? There is nothing from SGU that suggests thats how power is stored on Destiny. Also my understanding of a ZPM is that you can not recharge them, ZPM size, or room size

not.... exactly.

a ZPM holds a self-contained universe. what if destiny's "capacitor" (no real capacitor can hold that much energy), is a microverse like a ZPM has, but this time round DESIGNED to charge and recharge.

also in theory, nothing prevents a ZPM from being recharged. however it can only be done when it has charge left. once depleted, the microverse is collapsed.


as to ancients never revisiting the tech:


remember it's built during their height. imagine what happens if 90% of our population died. how much of our tech would remain, and how much would we still understand?

morbosfist
October 14th, 2010, 12:10 AM
There's no way to "charge" a universe, artificial or otherwise. Zero-point energy is extracted from the universe until it reaches maximum entropy. There's no way to add back to that. Once it's done, it's done.

pipi
October 14th, 2010, 05:08 AM
I don't understand why Young didn't send a military team over there to kill the aliens. Even if all the power was drained from Destiny as long as you seized control of the seeder ship you could repower it (and its not like it could go anywhere with a totally disable Destiny docked on it)

They kept mentioning something about if the power drops into the red there will be no return. I believe what this means is when the power drops too low or empty completely it can not be recharged. So storming the seeder ship would be not an option unless they want to sacrifice Destiny's power storing capacity. And where did I pull this out from? Well it applies to present day laptop batteries. If you drain your battery complete dead like leaving it in sleep mode for too long and too often, your rechargable battery can actually die and not be rechargable anymore.

pipi
October 14th, 2010, 05:30 AM
Not true. First, individuals could gate in an out to anywhere they want. And since they would be essentially plugged into a power source at all times, their shields should never give way. So why couldn't they park themselves there, launch drones and pick off wraith indefinitely? If drones weren't manufactured on site, again, the gate works. If for some reason they should want to leave, their fully charged shields would only need to sustain hits until they enter into hyperspace.

You've been *****ing about the Ancient's tactical stupidity in a few post so I'll try to add some insight to help you sleep better. Not in any particular order:

Why don't the Ancients park the Atlantis base next to a sun?
Well, for starters it would be a [email protected]#$ place to bring up your kids. And second they were holding off the Wraith just fine for years on that ocean planet. From my memory, the Ancients were not defeated in battle. They just got sick of the endless harrassment and fighting and decided to fake their own deaths and leave the galaxy. Third, any object too close to a sun would most likely be burned or trapped by the gravity indefinitely; Destiny was only flying onto the surface at speed, if it was going any slower it may not be able to escape the gravitational forces. If a puddle jumper attempted to dock with Atlantis while it was parked near the sun, I'm pretty sure the puddle jumper would either 1 be a floating microwave for everyone on board or 2 sucked into the middle of the sun and melted before it even came close to docking.

Why were the Ancients using ZPMs to power their warships instead of Destiny class style recharging batteries?
For practicality? No eco warriors here. The military don't issue their men with rechargable batteries for their flash lights and tell them to run to the nearest recharge station when it runs out; they just use disposables and they got backups handy. Lame anology but the smarter tactical advantage is to have spare ZPMs on board the ship to go the distance as opposed to leaving the fleet for a recharge during the heat of battle. Also strategically if an Ancient ship would be captured, the Wraith wouldn't gain access to limitless energy but ZPMs which run out. And if the Wraith put two and two together and figured out that all these Ancients ships are making a runner to the nearest star for a recharge, I'm pretty sure they would ambush them, since the Wraith are everywhere.

garhkal
October 14th, 2010, 06:07 AM
I think Rush did reverse the power transfer and the aliens messing with the controls was just a red herring... he then was really quick to separate and leave the seeder ship behind.

I disagree that it was rush.. BUT it would make sense with what we have seen.



There were a dozen aliens but Destiny has many more military personnel (even more if you armed the LA to fight the aliens) - I don't understand why Young didn't send a military team over there to kill the aliens. Even if all the power was drained from Destiny as long as you seized control of the seeder ship you could repower it (and its not like it could go anywhere with a totally disable Destiny docked on it)

We only saw one room with their pods and i counted a lot more than 12... And who is to say that was the only room with those pods.. Also something knocked out both rush and the Military guy. So those aliens had SOME weaponry...



He gave up on that way home pretty damn quickly considering it is the first real chance we have seen them have. Reminds me of Voyager where every week they were shown a way home but they never really pursued them beyond trying once and never tried to make them work.

That he did.. BUT at the mo, we will never knw why.


Maybe Destiny was like this. Maybe for a while there was a lot of interest in the 'great unknown' and the ancients got all excited about it, and made all the seeder ships and the destiny. Maybe after a few generations interest simply waned, and they went about doing things closer to home, things that didn't require the technology that they used for the destiny. They simply started developing in a different direction, and didn't necessarily look back. After half a million years, Destiny would probably be no more than a footnote in history, and by the time of Atlantis, very few probably even knew it had ever set out.

Optionally perhaps something happened that made them think the destiny was lost.. and so they decided to scrap all data related to it.


But you can also look at this as part of the Ancient stupidity (they did a LOT of dumb things). No one thought to ask, "Hey, now that we have this new, nifty Atlantis-type shield which can block anything as long as it has power, why don't we dig up that old star-power harvesting tech we abandoned long ago and park our city in the sun?" I mean, they pretty much forgot about Destiny, so it wouldn't be too surprising they forgot about other old tech. For an advanced race, they weren't too bright...

Perhaps that tech was lost to them, OR the data on it was.


I wonder if the seeder ships are laying a trail of stargates between galaxies as well as inside each galaxy they pass through? Maybe a continuous chain of stargate wormholes could connect Destiny with Earth using significantly less power than one big wormhole requiring multiple ZPMs.

Would that not have been shown on the holo in air pt2 when they first saw how far they have come??

Also would not they have seen some gates when they were crossing from galaxy 1 to 2?


remember it's built during their height. imagine what happens if 90% of our population died. how much of our tech would remain, and how much would we still understand?

Just look at what was lost when Constantinople was sacked, or when we entered the dark ages...

The_Asgard_live
October 14th, 2010, 07:00 AM
You've been *****ing about the Ancient's tactical stupidity in a few post so I'll try to add some insight to help you sleep better. Not in any particular order:

The main point of my original post was to address the 'power' problem and people's perceptions of it.

If you look at some of the old threads, you'll find people calculating that it takes dozen to 100's of ZPM, and other seemingly ridiculous amounts of energy to connect with Destiny and back again. This episode suggests one of 2 things.

Either a Destiny class ship stores the power of dozens to hundreds of ZPM's which seems ridiculous because its million year old tech, or the power requirements to make the connection just isn't that big a deal (relative to what we've seen in the franchise).

Regardless, it seems a Destiny class can hold the power of several ZPMs? Thats more than an Arura Class ship runs on by factor of 2 or 3 seemingly, and even more than Atlantis itself. That seems odd.



Why don't the Ancients park the Atlantis base next to a sun? Well, for starters it would be a [email protected]#$ place to bring up your kids.

Neither is a war zone, neither is under the ocean. But in theory, a sun would be a constant power source and place that the wraith couldn't follow. So, imagine Atlantis equip itself with the solar collectors and power storage and could juice its shields to the tune of a dozen ZPMs, not just 3. Flies into the sun, recharges, flies out basically indestructible, offs a half dozen hives, flies back to the outer surface of the sun. rinse, repeat


And second they were holding off the Wraith just fine for years on that ocean planet. From my memory, the Ancients were not defeated in battle. They just got sick of the endless harrassment and fighting and decided to fake their own deaths and leave the galaxy.

Because the writers turned them into tactically dumb smart people.


Third, any object too close to a sun would most likely be burned or trapped by the gravity indefinitely; Destiny was only flying onto the surface at speed, if it was going any slower it may not be able to escape the gravitational forces.

We don't know one way or the other.


If a puddle jumper attempted to dock with Atlantis while it was parked near the sun,

Don't dock, come through the gate.


Why were the Ancients using ZPMs to power their warships instead of Destiny class style recharging batteries? For practicality? No eco warriors here. The military don't issue their men with rechargable batteries for their flash lights and tell them to run to the nearest recharge station when it runs out; they just use disposables and they got backups handy. Lame anology but the smarter tactical advantage is to have spare ZPMs on board the ship to go the distance as opposed to leaving the fleet for a recharge during the heat of battle. Also strategically if an Ancient ship would be captured, the Wraith wouldn't gain access to limitless energy but ZPMs which run out.

Few problems. You are missing the scope of the power. The rechargeable variety seems to allow for the power of many ZPMs, not 1. If the value of your shields/hyper drive speed are proportional to the power you plug into it, the rechargeable variety is better, unless ZPMs are plentiful.

Second, if an Ancient ship was captured, they get the ZPM, the long range (non-crappy says McKay) hyperdrive, the drones and everything else the ship has.


And if the Wraith put two and two together and figured out that all these Ancients ships are making a runner to the nearest star for a recharge, I'm pretty sure they would ambush them, since the Wraith are everywhere.
Unlikely. The wraith had 60 hives or so? Compare that to the number of stars one could flee to to recharge.

Control_Chair
October 14th, 2010, 07:30 AM
All plausible I suppose. Though not very satisfying. Ignore everything I was saying about shields and this and that. The argument has been (by those that take this point of view) that Destiny is more or less unreachable. That even the ancients couldn't get there because its farther out than even they had anticipated, let alone the Asgard or their knowledge, and nothing short of a ridiculous number of ZPMs or Iccrus planet can do it. And yet in this episode a million+? year old space ship can do it. And the ship doesn't do it with a magic power generating device, but your average sun + good power storage.

I think the writers have some work to do.

Not all of the energy from an Iccarus type planet or outputted by a star goes into dialing the 9 chevron address to Destiny.

I apologise I am about to get a bit technical

The gravitational binding Energy of the Earth is about 2.24×10^32J, then the TOTAL amount of energy supplied by the Naquahdriah core had to be greater than this amount to destroy the planet (assuming Iccarus base planet was of a similar size to the Earth because of similar levels of gravity). This figure is roughly equal to how much energy the sun puts out in one week.

Now multiple dialing of the nine chevron address where planed by both Iccarus base and the Lucian Alliance so only a fraction of this power was being tapped each time. Also in Earth only a fraction of the Energy output of the star was being harnessed to dial back to Earth.

Conclusions:-
Dialing the ninth chevron address requires significantly less power than planet busting levels that can be supplied by ZPM’s, so theoretically a fully charged ZPM should be capable of dialing Destiny multiple times before it is depleted, however the few ZPM’s in Earths possession are almost depleted so why waste what little power is available to dial Destiny when other sources like Iccarus planets are available.

geddarkstorm
October 14th, 2010, 09:39 AM
I think you are misinterpreting my post. I'm saying there have been several discussion threads about whether or not its possible to reach Destiny. You can search for them and read for yourself. I think you will absolutely find forum users making the argument that its difficult to the point of almost impossible to reach destiny. Nothing short of dozens to hundreds of ZPM will do it. Asgard couldn't have helped, and neither can their core. Juiced up ships can't, and at this point even the ancients probably couldn't etc. etc... I'm sure you'll find all those kind of arguments in those threads.

I think this episode is kind of a game changer in discussions like that since it was a million+- year old ship and a short range gate that seems to be able to do it. At least the science geeks on the show seemed to accept that there is no reason it shouldn't work.

So, either a Destiny class ship (wicked old tech) can store the power of dozen's to 100's of ZPMs (something that seemingly is almost impossible to do in present time) and would seem quite ridiculous, or perhaps powering up the gate to dial back and forth just isn't that hard.

Again, Destiny isn't doing it with some magic power generating device, or rare mineral. Its all about the storage. Earth can't build subspace in a bottle, but how about destiny style capacitors?

Actually, you totally misunderstood my post :P. When I said "no one" I was talking about the only "ones" that matter, the ones on the show. I couldn't give less for what people have speculated in other threads if it isn't based on hard information and logic from the show's universe.

Again, NOTHING in Universe that I've seen so far says a ZPM couldn't dial Destiny. I would bet you a ZPM, a single ZPM, could do it just fine without trouble. You know, overloading one of those things will blow up a planet after all. They have at least the power of an Icarus like planet then. It's just that, well, NO ONE HAS ZPMs anymore in the SG universe. There's a total of two known, both in continuous use and cannot be spared. This whole "100's of ZPMs" thing is based on absolutely nothing that I can find, unless there's some hidden snip of in show dialogue I missed.

There in, this episode has not changed the game what so ever, except told us that Destiny can scrounge enough power to dial back to Earth when leeching from a seeder ship and combining its own reserves. We know it can also likely (though not completely sure) dial Earth safely by itself while recharging in a star. But thanks to Rush...

Kaiphantom
October 14th, 2010, 01:11 PM
Yeah, I agree, we should really drop the line about "needing 100's of ZPMs to connect to Destiny." The truth is, we don't know how many it would take. It's unclear exactly how many ZPM's Earth has now, and how much energy they have left (or whether Earth would even want to risk draining them to establish a wormhole to Destiny, or take them from whatever else they are needed for). All we know is that the Ancients could manufacture ZPM's, so obviously connecting to Destiny wouldn't have been an issue.

Could have easily just taken a dozen ZPMs. I'd guess more than one, though, heh. Jack's makeshift device from a staff weapon could dial another galaxy, and a single ZPM can dial another galaxy fairly easily. If we assume Destiny is 40+ galaxies away, and each ZPM can dial another galaxy 5 times (very low estimate), then they'd only need 8 ZPM's.

Abiron
October 14th, 2010, 02:27 PM
Those are special circumstances. Midway used a special macro that overrode basic gate operating procedure. The Ori Supergate was built in orbit of a planet, so it's still technically planetary targeting.

The macro was only used to store the incoming travellers in the buffer and dial the next address. And the supergate consumed its planet to create the black hole that powered it. If McKay had also needed to find a way to target a gate in space instead of on a planet, I'm sure he would have been very excited to expound upon that as well.

I'm sorry, but I cannot think of any evidence in the franchise where a planet is required for the target gate. The addresses are coordinates, and I believe that any gate within the targeted 3-dimensional volume, planet or no, is a valid reciever. At most, we've seen that a gravity well is usually present, but not always a planet.

geddarkstorm
October 14th, 2010, 03:48 PM
Actually, a ZPM is way more powerful than that. Remember when Atlantis had just one, they dialed Earth up -routinely-. Way more than five times, by probably an order of magnitude or so, and that dialing never drained the thing. Overloading a ZPM will blow up a planet and anything immediately near it, so it's said in Atlantis. We've also had ZPMs power huge time dilation fields for over ten thousand years without difficulty. I believe a single ZPM would get to Destiny without much trouble. It's just, well, were are you going to find a spare ZPM now?

pipi
October 14th, 2010, 04:24 PM
The main point of my original post was to address the 'power' problem and people's perceptions of it.

If you look at some of the old threads, you'll find people calculating that it takes dozen to 100's of ZPM, and other seemingly ridiculous amounts of energy to connect with Destiny and back again. This episode suggests one of 2 things.

Either a Destiny class ship stores the power of dozens to hundreds of ZPM's which seems ridiculous because its million year old tech, or the power requirements to make the connection just isn't that big a deal (relative to what we've seen in the franchise).

As other has stated, it's anyone's guess how many ZPMs it takes to dial the 9 Cheveron. It could be 1 (fully charged), it could be 10 or more. Earth did not have any fully charged ones to experiment with.



Regardless, it seems a Destiny class can hold the power of several ZPMs? Thats more than an Arura Class ship runs on by factor of 2 or 3 seemingly, and even more than Atlantis itself. That seems odd.

Besides from not quantifying the number of ZPMs needed to dial the gate from above, the two classes of ships are different indesign. Destiny could be constructed as an 80% battery for all we know and lacks shield amour and other things like fighter launch bay etc. that a battle class Aurora ship would require. Since the Aurora ship seems to only need 1 ZPM to be fully functional, it can make more efficient use of its internal space like storing other smaller ships and living quaters and also keeping a reserve of ZPMs and other stuff, like maybe a fleet of puddle jumpers. We don't even know if the two ships are of the same size. Destiny definitely dwarfs the seeder ship that's for sure. Maybe most of that space are allocated for capacitors. I believe Destiny's remaining functional battery capacity was not sufficient to dial the gate home, that's why they need to link the seeder ship's batteries too at the same time. And it was doubtful how long they could maintain the wormhole, so it could just be for a few seconds then poof.



Neither is a war zone, neither is under the ocean. But in theory, a sun would be a constant power source and place that the wraith couldn't follow. So, imagine Atlantis equip itself with the solar collectors and power storage and could juice its shields to the tune of a dozen ZPMs, not just 3. Flies into the sun, recharges, flies out basically indestructible, offs a half dozen hives, flies back to the outer surface of the sun. rinse, repeat

You seem to think the city of Atlantis was a warship. Well it's not. It was a city for people to live in. It just happen to have a shield capable of defending off the Wraith without the need to fly anywhere near a star. The Ancients were spread out across the galaxy living happily but were chased out by the Wraith. Only the city of Atlantis was safe. A one of a kind super city. The city was above water taking in refugees, they only sunk it to pretend to be destroyed, and then left the galaxy anyway since who would want to spend the rest of their lives underwater. Your facts are mixed up.



Unlikely. The wraith had 60 hives or so? Compare that to the number of stars one could flee to to recharge.
You're basing your figures on post war hive numbers. How many million years has past since then. And why would any ship want to incurr this inconvenience? Who cares about going green. Just pull out a spare ZPM from the store room. A ship seems to function fine with 1 ZPM, so a room full of these would last any mission until they can dock back with the city to resupply. We don't know how easy it is to create a ZPM. They could be manufactured like AA batteries for anyone guess. So easy.

erotavlas
October 14th, 2010, 04:29 PM
I don't get it, in all this time why haven't they learned to build their own ZPMs. I mean they have the entire collected knowledge of the Asgard and access to Atlantis etc. Surely the knowledge must be there somewhere.

morbosfist
October 14th, 2010, 04:49 PM
I don't get it, in all this time why haven't they learned to build their own ZPMs. I mean they have the entire collected knowledge of the Asgard and access to Atlantis etc. Surely the knowledge must be there somewhere.Knowing how and being able to do it are two very different things. They likely don't know how to do it, anyway, since much of Atlantis' database is still encrypted.

Kaiphantom
October 14th, 2010, 05:15 PM
I don't get it, in all this time why haven't they learned to build their own ZPMs. I mean they have the entire collected knowledge of the Asgard and access to Atlantis etc. Surely the knowledge must be there somewhere.

Some things are more complex, or more difficult to figure out. Just because you know something is possible, doesn't mean you can duplicate it. Getting yourself out a straight jacket is possible, but how long will it take you to figure out on your own? ZPM's require our own understanding of science to grow, and that could take years. Realistically, TPTB won't have us building ZPM's for story reasons, but they are story reasons that make sense.

tomstone
October 14th, 2010, 05:36 PM
Just wanted to say something about ZPM's. If we take ZPM as our equivalent to a battery, and the Ancients used it as such, they probably had a way to generate power on a permanent level. I know it wasn't mentioned, but using batteries to work all their tech would be pretty inefficent. I know a ZPM can power our Cities for years, though ancient tech will need a lot more. Atlantis itself at use of the Ancients, couldn't have taken more then some months to deplete 1 ZPM. So what would be more efficient? A battery you have to change every x months or something durable?

morbosfist
October 14th, 2010, 05:59 PM
Just wanted to say something about ZPM's. If we take ZPM as our equivalent to a battery, and the Ancients used it as such, they probably had a way to generate power on a permanent level. I know it wasn't mentioned, but using batteries to work all their tech would be pretty inefficent. I know a ZPM can power our Cities for years, though ancient tech will need a lot more. Atlantis itself at use of the Ancients, couldn't have taken more then some months to deplete 1 ZPM. So what would be more efficient? A battery you have to change every x months or something durable?A ZPM may be a battery, but it's a battery that lasts for an ungodly amount of time. Three ZPMs can power the shield for 10,000 years while holding back the pressure of ~6000 feet of water. That's a lot of energy being expended. Normal operations don't even need the shield to be active. Atlantis under Ancient control could probably last centuries, at least, on the power of a single set of ZPMs, probably longer.

Trinary
October 14th, 2010, 06:26 PM
This discussion is going nowhere. Being able to dial Earth using combine destiny and seeder ship power is remain a theory. Each time someone dial to destiny, the whole planet will exploded. It may resulting the same consequences when destiny trying to dial home. With bunch of stargates made of Naquadriah on the seeder ship, the explosion from power capacitors may ignite a planetary size explosions and destroy both ships.

Probably, that is the motive of the brown alien disengage the power routing to the destiny's stargate. Perhaps, the brown alien is seeder ship keeper droids created by the Ancient. They constantly in hibernation when the ship not at work.

Logically, it's a waste of energy and dangerous to connect via stargate to Earth.

The_Asgard_live
October 14th, 2010, 06:29 PM
Conclusions:-
Dialing the ninth chevron address requires significantly less power than planet busting levels that can be supplied by ZPM’s, so theoretically a fully charged ZPM should be capable of dialing Destiny multiple times before it is depleted, however the few ZPM’s in Earths possession are almost depleted so why waste what little power is available to dial Destiny when other sources like Iccarus planets are available.



Again, NOTHING in Universe that I've seen so far says a ZPM couldn't dial Destiny. I would bet you a ZPM, a single ZPM, could do it just fine without trouble. You know, overloading one of those things will blow up a planet after all. They have at least the power of an Icarus like planet then. It's just that, well, NO ONE HAS ZPMs anymore in the SG universe. There's a total of two known, both in continuous use and cannot be spared. This whole "100's of ZPMs" thing is based on absolutely nothing that I can find, unless there's some hidden snip of in show dialogue I missed.

There in, this episode has not changed the game what so ever, except told us that Destiny can scrounge enough power to dial back to Earth when leeching from a seeder ship and combining its own reserves. We know it can also likely (though not completely sure) dial Earth safely by itself while recharging in a star. But thanks to Rush...



Yeah, I agree, we should really drop the line about "needing 100's of ZPMs to connect to Destiny." The truth is, we don't know how many it would take. It's unclear exactly how many ZPM's Earth has now, and how much energy they have left (or whether Earth would even want to risk draining them to establish a wormhole to Destiny, or take them from whatever else they are needed for). All we know is that the Ancients could manufacture ZPM's, so obviously connecting to Destiny wouldn't have been an issue.

Could have easily just taken a dozen ZPMs. I'd guess more than one, though, heh. Jack's makeshift device from a staff weapon could dial another galaxy, and a single ZPM can dial another galaxy fairly easily. If we assume Destiny is 40+ galaxies away, and each ZPM can dial another galaxy 5 times (very low estimate), then they'd only need 8 ZPM's.

For the record, I never believed it took hundreds of ZPMs. Fully believed the Ancients would have been able to dial it, and the Asgard as well for that matter.

For those who did in the previous threads I was trying to point out the following based on what I think we can safely conclude or imply from this episode. We know for a fact, Atlantis, a city ship is powered by 3 ZPM, so either:

1. A Destiny class (seeder) ship stores more power than is required to power all of Atlantis 3 ZPMs or more. Which seems very odd, given in the franchise even 1 ZPM is such a big deal. Not to mention Destiny's power is based on million+- year old tech

or

2. Some people estimates have been way off (from those threads) and the power requirements are probably 3 or less ZPMs.

I also wanted to note that from this episode we learned that a short range gate seems to be just like any other gate. It will go where you want it to if you put enough power into it.

I think my reasoning is solid, don't mind being corrected.

Also as Control_Chair points out for the rest of us who were sloppy in articulating it, dialing Destiny does not deplete an Icurus Planet, probably not even close. Just like dialing Atlantis wouldn't deplete a ZPM.

morbosfist
October 14th, 2010, 06:35 PM
Power requirements are one thing. Power output is another. ZPMs have a long shelf life but there's a limit to how much power they can safely output at once. Icarus can output a lot more power because it's essentially one giant reactor. The same may hold true for the seeder.

RobertF
October 14th, 2010, 06:39 PM
Also we don't know how far the Destiny and seeder ships have flown from the Milky Way during the past million years. The ships may not be on a continuous outbound flight vector, but instead on a more circuitous route or a steadily widening spiral.


Based on the map presented in the first episodes it does seem to be more of a straight line than a spiral.

Or actually somewhat of a random walk:

http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/albums/uni_season1/101-

The_Asgard_live
October 14th, 2010, 06:59 PM
Besides from not quantifying the number of ZPMs needed to dial the gate from above, the two classes of ships are different indesign.

That is my point entirely. First you have to decide what you believe. Does a fully charged Destiny store more than the entire power requirements of a fully charged Atlantis city ship (3 ZPMs) or not. If not, then we can assume to dial Destiny likely requires 3 or less ZPM. If it does, then what the heck? A Destiny has to have more power than Atlantis? Constructed from tech million+- years older?
If the latter is the case than I question their ship design choices and tactics.


You seem to think the city of Atlantis was a warship. Well it's not. It was a city for people to live in. It just happen to have a shield capable of defending off the Wraith without the need to fly anywhere near a star.

This is why if I was in charge of this fake universe, my portrait would be in a gilded frame hanging up in the lobby of Atlantis as the man who defeated the Wraith, and you and your concerns about what does and does not constitute a retro-fit war ship and the quality of life of Atlantis's children would be a life-sucked shriveled prune. :)

Its a city ship that can store a cities worth of drones and power storage capabilities and has shields that are seemingly impenetrable based on how much power you feed them. Doesn't matter what its original design was, that is a heck of a war ship.


A one of a kind super city.

2 of a kind of you count its sister ship in 'The Tower' episode. 3 of a kind if you count The Nox version.


The city was above water taking in refugees, they only sunk it to pretend to be destroyed, and then left the galaxy anyway since who would want to spend the rest of their lives underwater. Your facts are mixed up.

What facts?


You're basing your figures on post war hive numbers. How many million years has past since then.

None? Hasn't it been only 10,000? And yes, I am using a number from the show to make my point, 60+ hives. But I don't have to, I could just as easily say, even if the wraith had 10 million hives do you know how hard it would be to set a trap around a random star when compared to the number of stars?


And why would any ship want to incurr this inconvenience? Who cares about going green. Just pull out a spare ZPM from the store room. A ship seems to function fine with 1 ZPM, so a room full of these would last any mission until they can dock back with the city to resupply. We don't know how easy it is to create a ZPM. They could be manufactured like AA batteries for anyone guess. So easy.

No we don't know how easy it is to create them, what we do know, is that of the 2 war ships we found, we never did find a battery (ZPM) storage room where they were dozens just sitting there. Nor did we find anything like that on Atlantis. In fact, if they were that plentiful, why didn't Janus just have Weir wake up in shorter intervals and replace them over and over.

I repeat, if your shields and hyperdrive speed are proportional to the amount of power you feed them, then why wouldn't you build war ships capable of storing massive (ZPM or more) worth of power if you have that tech. Power that can be replenished from any sun. In addition to keeping a ZPM on board?

Abiron
October 14th, 2010, 08:48 PM
Do we have any evidence that the Aurora-class ships use a ZPM as a power source? I'm not recalling any, but I could easily be wrong on this.

The_Asgard_live
October 14th, 2010, 09:04 PM
Do we have any evidence that the Aurora-class ships use a ZPM as a power source? I'm not recalling any, but I could easily be wrong on this.
I believe so, my memory is sketchy on it though. I think Todd related that information to McKay? Something about how ancient ships back in the day were wandering further and further away (from atlantis?), and they were able to attack individually, steal their ZPM and use it for their cloning purposes? At least that is what I am basing my facts on about the Aurora class power supply.

Though I could be imagining all that. If so though, yay for my imagination, thats pretty good.

morbosfist
October 14th, 2010, 09:08 PM
Todd said that, early in the war, they captured three ships, each powered by a ZPM. The Tria also had a ZPM.

Abiron
October 14th, 2010, 09:23 PM
I recall that...and Tria was using one to boost its sublight speed to just shy of c, but that was not "standard," if McKay was right. I suppose that the most we can be sure of is that an Aurora can tie a ZPM into its systems in the same way that the 304s can, but that it may not be their normal power source.

pipi
October 14th, 2010, 09:27 PM
That is my point entirely. First you have to decide what you believe. Does a fully charged Destiny store more than the entire power requirements of a fully charged Atlantis city ship (3 ZPMs) or not. If not, then we can assume to dial Destiny likely requires 3 or less ZPM. If it does, then what the heck? A Destiny has to have more power than Atlantis? Constructed from tech million+- years older?
If the latter is the case than I question their ship design choices and tactics.

This is why if I was in charge of this fake universe, my portrait would be in a gilded frame hanging up in the lobby of Atlantis as the man who defeated the Wraith, and you and your concerns about what does and does not constitute a retro-fit war ship and the quality of life of Atlantis's children would be a life-sucked shriveled prune. :)

Its a city ship that can store a cities worth of drones and power storage capabilities and has shields that are seemingly impenetrable based on how much power you feed them. Doesn't matter what its original design was, that is a heck of a war ship.

2 of a kind of you count its sister ship in 'The Tower' episode. 3 of a kind if you count The Nox version.

What facts?

None? Hasn't it been only 10,000? And yes, I am using a number from the show to make my point, 60+ hives. But I don't have to, I could just as easily say, even if the wraith had 10 million hives do you know how hard it would be to set a trap around a random star when compared to the number of stars?

No we don't know how easy it is to create them, what we do know, is that of the 2 war ships we found, we never did find a battery (ZPM) storage room where they were dozens just sitting there. Nor did we find anything like that on Atlantis. In fact, if they were that plentiful, why didn't Janus just have Weir wake up in shorter intervals and replace them over and over.

I repeat, if your shields and hyperdrive speed are proportional to the amount of power you feed them, then why wouldn't you build war ships capable of storing massive (ZPM or more) worth of power if you have that tech. Power that can be replenished from any sun. In addition to keeping a ZPM on board?

It's no secret the Ancients were not war mongers and were actually a bunch of p***ies. So they chose peace and accention over fighting the Wraith. And they probably chickened out against the Ori too.

Back on topic, there is one factor that you have not considered into your hypothesis of how much capacity Destiny has to dial the gate home to Earth. And that is human error on behalf of whoever said there's enough energy to dial home.

Who quantified this amount? Are Destiny's instruments even measured in the same metrics? If the calculations are off by a 0, ohwell boom boom baby. There's probably no instrument capable to measuring the power required to dial the gate to Destiny from Icarus accurately. They always seem to over power the gate and cause the planet to explode. With only one successful dial from Icarus, you can't even derive an average of the power requirements. That and all the evidence and data went boom. Rush knew there were substantial power to 'try' to dial the gate but he by no means knows for certain that it will even work or work for how long. What if the power was not reversed and the gate tried to dial but failed on the 11th hour cause it fell short of power? You're basing all your power estimates on a Rush hunch. A pot shot. Even Rush was doubtful how long the wormhole could be maintained once it was established. Since Destiny's power even combined with the seeder ship would only yield a one hit wonder by best estimates this would fall short of being equivalent to a 3 ZPM city which can probably dial Destiny many times without sacrificing maintaining the city at the same time.

Abiron
October 14th, 2010, 09:42 PM
Perhaps we're comparing two contemprary yet distinctly different types of systems here. Let's take a modern world example:

US Navy ships use one of two proven methods of power generation: Nuclear and conventional. Both are proven systems with advantages and disadvantages. Nuclear vessels rely almost exclusively on the nuclear plant for most of their power needs, and conventional ships do the same with their conventionally fuelled systems. One place they differ is that nuclear ships may have diesel fuel backup systems, but conventional ships do not have nuclear backup systems. Both, however, may have large battery backup capabilities.

So...let's say that the capacitors on Destiny are the equivalent of a conventional diesel system. How they get their fuel isn't an issue; Destiny draws from stars, and is able to convert the scooped starstuff into fuel. She may also be able to draw elements from a gas giant or other extrasolar bodies; we don't really know. But she can also draw power from another ship, so her systems do not require a star for power. I am assuming that the stars are simply the most easily accessible and guaranteed available power sources, and that her designers chose them on that basis.

Later Ancient designs like the Aurora class ships and Atlantis used the equivalent of a nuclear source: the ZPM. These provided a very compact and replaceable source of power with a very long lifespan, allowing significantly longer periods between refuelling (or ZPM replacement) than with "conventional" sources. But they are more complex, require more complexity, and may still have massive capacitor-type backup systems. But as we've seen, on a ship like Atlantis where ZPMs are the primary source of power, there is usually a big issue when the ZPMs are depleted.

An Aurora-class can use a ZPM to augment its power to significantly greater levels, but a ZPM is not required for daily or even occasional combat operations. So in the case of some ships, they have a "conventional-equivalent" system with the capability of throwing in a "nuclear option" for increased power. But the ship does not need them; they are an augment to its systems. It can still perform its duties without one.

In the end, using ZPMs on Destiny, even if they existed at that point in the Ancient tech timeline, would not have made much sense. They are a finite source of power, no matter how great, and cannot be easily manufactured (based on our inability to duplicate them, at least). Conventional, capacitor-type hardware can be recharged and does not rely on an exotic fuel source. I don't think that the planners of the Destiny mission would have wanted a power source that could not be replaced, any more than we would design a warship with a nuclear reactor if the only fuel it's likely to have access to during its lifetime would be conventional.

In other words, even if the designers of Destiny had access to ZPMs, I don't think they would have used them as a primary power source. Relying on simpler and more "conventional" systems makes more sense for a ship travelling far past any chance of convenient resupply.

That being said, I also doubt that the designers would have launched Destiny without the ability to dial home. So the question is, what did they put in place to make sure that she could dial back, and is it something we haven't found yet? Did they plan to bring ZPMs along with them when they finally boarded her, exclusively to power the gate for a homeward connection? And if so, is there a ZPM "terminal" somewhere in the bowels of engineering with an empty socket or 3?

The_Asgard_live
October 14th, 2010, 09:54 PM
It's no secret the Ancients were not war mongers and were actually a bunch of p***ies. So they chose peace and accention over fighting the Wraith. And they probably chickened out against the Ori too.

Hippies.


Back on topic, there is one factor that you have not considered into your hypothesis of how much capacity Destiny has to dial the gate home to Earth. And that is human error on behalf of whoever said there's enough energy to dial home.

I did... earlier in the thread. I said something to the effect, we are assuming the dial was going to work, because at a minimum the science nerds on Destiny didn't seem to think there was any reason it wouldn't.


Who quantified this amount?

Rush dialed the gate twice, I'm assuming he has a rough idea about how much it needs. He and his imaginary companion recognized the seeder had enough. Independently Eli? Other science geeks did too. So I am assuming its a known quantity.


Are Destiny's instruments even measured in the same metrics? If the calculations are off by a 0, ohwell boom boom baby. There's probably no instrument capable to measuring the power required to dial the gate to Destiny from Icarus accurately. They always seem to over power the gate and cause the planet to explode.

Is that why the planets were exploding? You also have to take into account though that unlike Icarus planet's gates, Destiny was most likely designed to dial back to the MW. Icarus gates were jury-rigged by humans who were guessing. My guess is Destiny was made to be able to channel the power properly.


With only one successful dial from Icarus, you can't even derive an average of the power requirements. That and all the evidence and data went boom. Rush knew there were substantial power to 'try' to dial the gate but he by no means knows for certain that it will even work or work for how long. What if the power was not reversed and the gate tried to dial but failed on the 11th hour cause it fell short of power? You're basing all your power estimates on a Rush hunch. A pot shot. Even Rush was doubtful how long the wormhole could be maintained once it was established.

See what my assumptions are based on above


Since Destiny's power even combined with the seeder ship would only yield a one hit wonder by best estimates this would fall short of being equivalent to a 3 ZPM city which can probably dial Destiny many times without sacrificing maintaining the city at the same time.

Well there is some assumptions there too. We don't know what the power reserves were. We don't know how charged the seeder ship was. There was at least enough power on the seeder + on Destiny to waste at least enough energy to dial at least once and not exceed the point of no return (the level they were concerned about when the browns reversed the process). Or else they were being completely reckless.

garhkal
October 15th, 2010, 04:04 AM
Knowing how and being able to do it are two very different things. They likely don't know how to do it, anyway, since much of Atlantis' database is still encrypted.

Yup. And even with what we know, we still do not know what the ancients called them.. HECK even when we discusssed with the asurans (reps) all they said is they had sufficient power... that and Jannus (before i sleep) asked wier what we called them.




Do we have any evidence that the Aurora-class ships use a ZPM as a power source? I'm not recalling any, but I could easily be wrong on this.



Some did at least... Todd said that duringg the ancient wraith war that they had acquired some ZPMs from captured Auroras which led to the practice of the ancients not going too far into the wraith territory..

wingsabre
October 21st, 2010, 12:02 AM
Its not about the generation though, its about the storage. So this begs the question. The ancients 1 million years ago give or take, built ships that when fully powered had the power by your calculations of 'several' zpms. 1 million years later their ships are powered with tech less powerful than a single zpm? Aurora class?

In other words, a fully charged destiny with shields should be able to hold off an attack by the wraith for how long? Why wouldn't they just fly Atlantis into the sun, park it there, use the scoopers and never leave. They could fend off an attack as long as the sun was viable, indefinitely.

Its like there is a disconnect, power supply/storage got less efficient the more advanced they got? and not just like 20 or 50 years, but 1,000,000 years advancement

I understand what you're saying, but there's a few things you haven't considered. First off, I think the Destiny as a whole uses less power and if it's at 100% will have the capacity of a hand full of ZPM. It's not that the Ancients regressed through the years, it's the facts that Ancients too follow Moore's Law. The computing powers and function of their most advanced ships and cities require more power. Their hyperdrives utilizes more power, being able to travel through an entire galaxy in the matter of minutes if enough power is supplied. Their shields as a whole are more powerful, and of a different design. It seems like they form a bubble around the ship instead of hugging the ship.

An analogy you could use to compare the Destiny and Atlantis is the tortoise and the hare. The Destiny is slow and consistent. It's able to predict it's energy consumption from a daily or yearly basis. It does not demand that much energy as the equipments utilizes relatively little energy. The gates can only dial in a limited range, reducing the energy demand. It's sensors may be relatively limited, relying on information forwarded by seeder ships to plot their course instead of using it's long range sensors. Additionally, from what we've seen so far, it's shields are relatively weak and is not built for prolonged combat or exposure to radiation. In Intervention, the shields were about to fail, before they were running out of power. This implies that the shields can only hold so much stress before it begins to fail, and is not completely dependent on the power supply. As a result, if Ancients were to maintain such technology, they won't be able to continually rest their ships on the surface of a sun and still combat their enemies. In terms of combat, the Destiny seems to do very little, and instead maintains their shields until the countdown clock runs out of time, and they jump to a new location. Utilizing both the shields and weapons seem to take too much out of the system.

Atlantis in contrast, utilizes a great amount of power. It's hyperdrives are able to traverse entire galaxies in the span of minutes. It's Shields can withstand a nova, and as a result can withstand being on the surface of the sun. Several ZPM running in tandem also seems to last longer, and supply a greater amount of power. In addition they're significantly smaller, especially when you have to compare it to the solar wings of Destiny. This means that Atlantis only needs to devote less than 1% of it's mass to power supply, whereas Destiny is utilizing what I'm assuming is about 30% of it's mass to collect, store and generate power. Tortoise generally carry a large mass in a form of defense, and much of it's energy supply comes from fat storage. A hare in contrast have lean mass and utilizes glycogen as it's main supply of energy. As a whole, they're simply two different functional designs.

wingsabre
October 21st, 2010, 12:20 AM
Yeah, I agree, we should really drop the line about "needing 100's of ZPMs to connect to Destiny." The truth is, we don't know how many it would take. It's unclear exactly how many ZPM's Earth has now, and how much energy they have left (or whether Earth would even want to risk draining them to establish a wormhole to Destiny, or take them from whatever else they are needed for). All we know is that the Ancients could manufacture ZPM's, so obviously connecting to Destiny wouldn't have been an issue.

Could have easily just taken a dozen ZPMs. I'd guess more than one, though, heh. Jack's makeshift device from a staff weapon could dial another galaxy, and a single ZPM can dial another galaxy fairly easily. If we assume Destiny is 40+ galaxies away, and each ZPM can dial another galaxy 5 times (very low estimate), then they'd only need 8 ZPM's.

That's the thing too, Ancients used ZPMs in parallel, and not in series. It was when they left Atlantis that Janus modified it to work in series so as not to drain all the power. I'm assuming that 3 ZPM can be enough to dial to the Destiny with out any problem. The Destiny is most likely 10,000,000 galaxies away, assuming it's able to traverse a galaxy a year.

In terms of an Icarus type planet, it really does seem like they only use a superficial amount of energy to dial the gate, and what really happened is the process of dialing the gate caused an unstable cascade reaction to occur and the planet blew up as a result. If anything, it may be that the use of a Black Hole would be enough to dial the Destiny. The only downside is, to build a space station near a black hole would be open target. Same is with a ship. A planet could be viable in terms of protection. Icarus was build inside a mountain.

wingsabre
October 21st, 2010, 12:28 AM
Just wanted to say something about ZPM's. If we take ZPM as our equivalent to a battery, and the Ancients used it as such, they probably had a way to generate power on a permanent level. I know it wasn't mentioned, but using batteries to work all their tech would be pretty inefficent. I know a ZPM can power our Cities for years, though ancient tech will need a lot more. Atlantis itself at use of the Ancients, couldn't have taken more then some months to deplete 1 ZPM. So what would be more efficient? A battery you have to change every x months or something durable?

But it looks like almost everything in the Stargate Universe is battery powered. Naquadah generators are essentially a battery. They use Naquadah as a power supply, and they can run out of power. We've seen them run out of power multiple times.

garhkal
October 21st, 2010, 03:06 AM
..SNIP...Tortoise generally carry a large mass in a form of defense, and much of it's energy supply comes from fat storage. A hare in contrast have lean mass and utilizes glycogen as it's main supply of energy. As a whole, they're simply two different functional designs.

That was a rather nice write up and analogy..

Quetzocoetl
October 30th, 2010, 04:41 PM
Edit: NVM, wingsabre said what I was going to say, only better.

Mister Oragahn
November 20th, 2010, 04:38 PM
Not all of the energy from an Iccarus type planet or outputted by a star goes into dialing the 9 chevron address to Destiny.

I apologise I am about to get a bit technical

The gravitational binding Energy of the Earth is about 2.24×10^32J, then the TOTAL amount of energy supplied by the Naquahdriah core had to be greater than this amount to destroy the planet (assuming Iccarus base planet was of a similar size to the Earth because of similar levels of gravity). This figure is roughly equal to how much energy the sun puts out in one week.

Now multiple dialing of the nine chevron address where planed by both Iccarus base and the Lucian Alliance so only a fraction of this power was being tapped each time. Also in Earth only a fraction of the Energy output of the star was being harnessed to dial back to Earth.

Conclusions:-
Dialing the ninth chevron address requires significantly less power than planet busting levels that can be supplied by ZPM’s, so theoretically a fully charged ZPM should be capable of dialing Destiny multiple times before it is depleted, however the few ZPM’s in Earths possession are almost depleted so why waste what little power is available to dial Destiny when other sources like Iccarus planets are available.

It depends on the size of the power core the Alterans built on those naqahdria filled planets. After all, the more power you try to get from a given amount of naqahdria, the more unstable it is. Therefore, if you can obtain a small amount of energy, but from a larger quantity of naqahdria, you can avoid the instability threshold, in theory. And, in theory, using the entire planet would paradoxically be the safest thing to do. However, I can see problems here, namely the possibility that if you run into problems, those problems spread to the whole planet, and exceptionally enough, it happens that said planet precisely is a bomb in the waiting, because of the exotic ore it contains.

So, we just don't know how the naqahdria is gathered and used by the device that provides power. It's likely, though, to be bigger than, say, the core on a X-303.

That said, we've seen near trans-universe connections established during SG-1's Ori arc, and I don't think it's beyond what a ZPM can easily provide even without being depleted.
Yet, the problem seem to be so.

And that's without going into the fact that a ZPM seems to hold enough energy to vaporize a whole planet many times (Carter even thought one could destroy the entire Solar system), and can entirely drained under controlled conditions at a max rate of 2%/second.
But again, with those funny exotic particles, you don't actually know how much of that energy is actually exploitable by the ZPM. Namely, how much power does the ZPM really delivers, in comparison to what it can blow up when it goes critical.

I also think that naqahdria, due to the amounts of energy it can provide, is an ore that really cheats the laws of physics and could be a "natural" ore that's halfway between naqahdah and an Arcturus core.
As I evidenced a while ago, the naqahdria bomb which killed Daniel via radiation poisoning, unleashed what looked like a heat distortion wave across the entire lab. An effect very similar, although pancaked, to the one we saw in SGA's episode Trinity, when the exotic particles leaked through the walls and killed a scientist.
I think we even saw something similar when Carter and that little girl experimented the first portable naqahdah core, and created an EMP pulse throughout the SGC.

garhkal
November 22nd, 2010, 01:59 AM
I loved the "emp" wave we saw in that ep... but the "wave front" we saw come out of the naquadria device in Meridian did not look like the energy wave the Acturus device gave off..