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View Full Version : Ethically charged events from "Aftermath"



Ser Scot A Ellison
October 6th, 2010, 03:42 AM
Okay, did Young do the right thing? I think he did what had to be done and didn't involve anyone else because he didn't want to create a problem. Bringing others in, particularly Scott, could have been problematic. I certainly understand Reily didn't want to die slowly alone in the shuttle craft.

I also think it took a great deal of courage and intestinal fortitude for Young to step up and do what he did for Reily.

Rush, on the other hand, is screwing the pooch. Attempting to run Destiny by himself without assistance is not going to work. Reily is dead because of Rush's poor decision making. This is the biggest mistake Rush has made since coming onboard, in my opinion, because it resulted in Reily's death. While I think he's right that Young is not stable, and appears to be drinking on top of everything else, Rush has to bring in the rest of the crew. He'll never be able to run all the systems on his own.

How long do you think it will take before Rush tells someone about the Bridge or someone finds out where Rush has been disappearing off to?

Shai Hulud
October 6th, 2010, 03:46 AM
Young shouldnt have had to end Rileys life, TJ could have amputated Rileys trapped leg tbh.

You could say that Riley's death was caused not by Rush's machinations but by Scott's piss poor piloting of the shuttle?

Rudy Pena
October 6th, 2010, 03:56 AM
Young shouldnt have had to end Rileys life, TJ could have amputated Rileys trapped leg tbh.

You could say that Riley's death was caused not by Rush's machinations but by Scott's piss poor piloting of the shuttle?TJ didnt have the right medical tools to amputate the leg. As for your thing with Scott, there was nothing he could have done when all systems were not responding cause of something in the planet that made the shuttle stop working mid-flight.

Shai Hulud
October 6th, 2010, 03:58 AM
TJ didnt have the right medical tools to amputate the leg. As for your thing with Scott, there was nothing he could have done when all systems were not responding cause of something in the planet that made the shuttle stop working mid-flight.

Interesting. And you know these facts how?

Shai Hulud
October 6th, 2010, 03:59 AM
And considering that TJ could have gated back to the Destiny and gotten any equipment she needed for an amputation I fail to see how your point, however spurious, about the lack of equipment is relevant?

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 6th, 2010, 04:01 AM
SH,

From my, very recent, viewing of "Aftermath". Scott had no control and said he had no control as they were coming in. Remember when Reily said, "pull up". Scott said, "I can't" indicating he had no control over the shuttle. They were very lucky they landed near the Stargate.

As to amputating Reilly's legs. I don't know that such an operation would have been possible without causing Reilly to bleed out or suffer severe infection due to the incredibly unsanitary conditions in the shuttle. If they could have gotten him out from under the wreckage then amputated it may have worked. But cutting off his legs in the process of freeing him? I think he would have exsanguinated.

Shai Hulud
October 6th, 2010, 04:03 AM
SH,

From my, very recent, viewing of "Aftermath". Scott had no control and said he had no control as they were coming in. Remember when Reily said, "pull up". Scott said, "I can't" indicating he had no control over the shuttle. They were very lucky they landed near the Stargate.

So how is Rush culpable for Rileys death when there are many other mitigating factors involved?

Radahldo
October 6th, 2010, 04:05 AM
Young shouldnt have had to end Rileys life, TJ could have amputated Rileys trapped leg tbh.
You could say that Riley's death was caused not by Rush's machinations but by Scott's piss poor piloting of the shuttle?

He lost power didn't he? And the ship descended into foliage which blinded them. I don't see what more he could have done.. Whereas it's pretty apparent what more rush could've done, which places the bulk of the irresponsibility on him.

I also don't understand why amputation wasn't considered by TJ during the entire time he she was there with him.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 6th, 2010, 04:07 AM
SH,


So how is Rush culpable for Rileys death when there are many other mitigating factors involved?

"Culpable" is the wrong word. He bears more responsibility for Reilly's death than anyone else, in my opinion. For the reasons I state above I think there was very little that could have been done for Reilly. It's not like they could gate in a crane to get him out from under the wreckage.

Commander Zelix
October 6th, 2010, 04:12 AM
SH,

As to amputating Reilly's legs. I don't know that such an operation would have been possible without causing Reilly to bleed out or suffer severe infection due to the incredibly unsanitary conditions in the shuttle.
You need to see the movie "The Ruins". :)

Cape
October 6th, 2010, 04:20 AM
How do we know they could of performed and amputation, I think if it were possible it would have been mentioned or done already. Scott had ample time to get anything he needed on destiny for TJ to do it, but didn't suggesting it wasn't an option. Plus TJ said the presure was the only thing keeping him from bleeding out. If they cut his leg off, adding to the amount of blood he already lost, i doubt Riley would have survived it.

Getting to the point of it Young was right or wrong, I think he did what he had to do and you could see he didn't want to do it. Riley knew what he was asking and pretty well begged for it and Young knew the situation. It took cuts on both their part and was a hard scene to watch.

I think Rush killed Riley more than Young, this all falls on him and he knows it. Also he thinks Young is mentally unstable, hes the one talking to people who aren't there, accept Frankly, i think he was there or more so the ship. However i think he wife is all in his head. Frankly atleast provided him with usefull info.

Rudy Pena
October 6th, 2010, 04:25 AM
Interesting. And you know these facts how?

I know these facts how????? Easy the shuttle lost all power to every system. Its like driving a car on the highway at 100 miles per hour and you lose the power to slow down and stop, but wait, your E-Break doesnt work along with your steering locks up too and you can only go straight.

And so by this logic of thinking of yours, its your fault that your car stopped working and your car hit other car and seriously hurting someone.


With TJ, she doesnt even have the medical tools on the ship to cut the leg off. They have to use weapons as a cane, so that pretty much says it all. They also dont have the meds to keep all the pain away, he may have died of shock and loss of blood cause the dont have much blood to give him once every thing is done.

Vapor
October 6th, 2010, 04:37 AM
I'm honestly surprised no one has tried to call Young a murderer for what he did with Riley, just because I know how easily some people leap to find fault in what Young does every week. The episode just aired though, so I can wait. :D

Seriously though, he did what he had to do. They both showed us with grim certainty that what was happening was not exactly fun or easy. It was a highly emotional scene for me, but I have to agree with Young's decision. If he hadn't granted Riley's request, the result could have been so much worse for him.

And yes, this is easily one of the worst mistakes Rush has ever made. The sh** will seriously hit the fan if Young finds out why all of this happened the way it did.

Shadow_7
October 6th, 2010, 04:51 AM
It wasn't just his legs. He lost all feeling in his legs, so that would imply spine. So pelvis crushed and all that jazz. Even if he could be saved. That's meds and food they don't have. No wheelchair, or other means to make him a useful member of the crew. Assuming that he would have survived.

Rush could have told them to return to the ship when he realized the odds. But he didn't. Rush sent them in to start with. While he may not be the one in charge, and other factors (scurvy). It was ultimately Rush's fault.

Scott was only a pilot. Once the ship stopped working, he was no longer a pilot. Had he known all the facts, perhaps he could have made a better choice. But he's a soldier first, pilot second. Following the orders given by the folks in charge.

Young might have opted for letting Riley die of natural causes. But that probably would have meant dieing alone as they would have gated away long before he passed. Given more time they could have done stuff. But in military terms, the mission comes first. Hopefully they'll return to bring the body home, but I doubt it at this point.

Young made a call to accellerate the end result while sparing those in ear shot of hearing his final cries. Not a popular call, but anyone who's heard a dog get killed by car, or other animal like a rabbit get killed by a dog. Those are sounds and memories that don't fade much. The hissing of a snake as you chop him up with a shovel, not quite the same thing. Had it been Rush and not Riley, I would imagine a few more cheers, than awes... Certainly more dramatic than it's my turn to be in charge...

escyos
October 6th, 2010, 05:03 AM
Young shouldnt have had to end Rileys life, TJ could have amputated Rileys trapped leg tbh.

You could say that Riley's death was caused not by Rush's machinations but by Scott's piss poor piloting of the shuttle?

umm the console was stopping him from bleeding out, if she amputated it wouldnt have mattered

Shai Hulud
October 6th, 2010, 05:13 AM
SH,



"Culpable" is the wrong word. He bears more responsibility for Reilly's death than anyone else, in my opinion. For the reasons I state above I think there was very little that could have been done for Reilly. It's not like they could gate in a crane to get him out from under the wreckage.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/culpable

cul·pa·ble   
[kuhl-puh-buhl]
–adjective
deserving blame or censure; blameworthy.

So how is that the 'wrong' word? Seems to fit perfectly IMHO.

Re: Rush's actions, what would you have rathered, that they starve or perhaps start killing and eating the LA prisoners?

Shai Hulud
October 6th, 2010, 05:16 AM
With TJ, she doesnt even have the medical tools on the ship to cut the leg off. They have to use weapons as a cane, so that pretty much says it all. They also dont have the meds to keep all the pain away, he may have died of shock and loss of blood cause the dont have much blood to give him once every thing is done.

Errrrr IIRC they have an alien anesthetic from 'Time' which could have been used to knock Riley out. All you really need to amputate someones leg is a very sharp knife and enough pressure to apply to break a bone. FWIW we havent a clue what medical supplies the LA brought with them when they gated to Destiny so stating categoricaly that they dont have the necessary equipment / supplies is naieve.

Shadow_7
October 6th, 2010, 05:21 AM
Also factor in time and quality of life issues.

I don't have any issue with WHAT Young did. The only call that would best benefit the mission. I did find the look on his face WHEN he did it a bit disturbing. Sort of that twinkle drool that Wray gets when she's about to be in charge. Or that Rush gets when he's about to prove Young wrong / win.

Shai Hulud
October 6th, 2010, 05:22 AM
umm the console was stopping him from bleeding out, if she amputated it wouldnt have mattered

http://science.jrank.org/pages/1285/Cauterization.html

Shai Hulud
October 6th, 2010, 05:24 AM
Also factor in time and quality of life issues.


Young states to Riley that they have plenty of time before the Destiny jumps. Quality of life, well, could it have been any worse than the quality of life of Franklin before he was uploaded after his second stint in the chair? Eli came up with the kino-sled im sure that they could have rigged Riley a kino-chair on the same principles.

SGeff
October 6th, 2010, 05:37 AM
Riley's death is certainly the one could causes many consequences. Young obviously did the right thing to do, it took a lot to make that decision. But if Wray or IOA know about it, they properly will use it to against Young.

And it was Rush's mistake to cost the death. So after the crew find out what Rush had been done, they definitely will accuse him, think about Senetor Amstrong, Riley's death is a lot more worse than that.

Who will be replaced to be Ele's Kino buddy? Maybe Volker, he did mention he could fly Kino very well before. Who will be operate the communication stone? Dr. Boone?

I am very excited to see other minor characters step up to fill Riley's position. Much like after Spencer's suicide, Dunning makes a lot more appearances.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 6th, 2010, 05:47 AM
SH,

Perhaps the better phrase is "Culpable" isn't the word I would chose as I feel it implies criminal responsibility.

revo1059
October 6th, 2010, 06:26 AM
I see we have several doctors here today.

Amputating a limb isn't exactly routine under normal circumstances, now take a person who is a medic at best and has almost NONE of the proper tools. He had no chance.

The bulk of the blame should fall on Rush, he sent that shuttle in knowing the circumstances.

Anybody who had their eyes open while watching the episode knows that Scott did nothing wrong. The shuttle lost power and turned into a glider (that didn't glide very well).

jelgate
October 6th, 2010, 08:23 AM
In terms of medical ethics I would agree with Young. Riley was going to die regardless and one of the highest part of medical ethics is that the patient chooses what he/she does with his/her body first. To that regard if Riley is to die its ethical to chose his wishes above your own.

As for Rush I find him responsible negligent homicide. His negligence of doing his job endangered everyone on the shuttle and killed Riley.

Finally an amputation is a lot more complex job. You just can't take a saw and cut off the leg. You have to very precise where you cut to prevent things like blood loss and nerve damange

KEK
October 6th, 2010, 08:50 AM
I think the very best you could say about Young's decision to send those people off the ship was that it was a necessary evil to maintain the safety of his crew, but I'm not sure even that is true.

In terms of the euthanasia, I think he was right to end Riley's suffering, but I think the way he chose to do it, despite Riley's pleas was a bit weak. I think he should have put a bullet in his head and ended his pain immediately, rather than sending him out in one of the worst ways possible just to cover his own arse. I know Riley wanted him to, but still.

I'm not sure what to make of Rush's actions. Negligible, arrogant at worst, but I think he believe what he's doing is the for the greater good. In hindsight sending them down to the planet was a mistake, but had the gamble paid off and they got the supplies they needed then it would have been a different matter. He has his flaws, but at least he's decisive.

I do believe that not telling the rest of the crew about the bridge is wrong though, he has no right to control their fate, especially without their knowing so.

Commander Zelix
October 6th, 2010, 09:52 AM
http://science.jrank.org/pages/1285/Cauterization.html
Finally someone did watch "The Ruins" after all!!!!

;)

g.o.d
October 6th, 2010, 09:57 AM
I never thought I would ever see this thing on Stargate. Thumbs up!

If I were Riley, I would rather have told Young to shoot me in a head

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 6th, 2010, 10:03 AM
g.o.d.,

If Young shot Riley there wouldn't be the convienent fiction that Riley just died.

leiasky
October 6th, 2010, 10:09 AM
I think Young did the right thing and it was, honestly, the best part of the mediocre episode for me. But - how he did it was a horrible. Give up a bullet to make it quick and painless. Young would look better in my eyes had he done that.

Krandor
October 6th, 2010, 10:35 AM
How long do you think it will take before Rush tells someone about the Bridge or someone finds out where Rush has been disappearing off to?

Not long. They already had 2 or 3 times in this episode alone where Young asked "Where is Rush?" and he definitely seemed to get suspicious when it was mentioned that Rush had contacted the shuttle.

I think very soon either something will happen where Rush has to admit he can control the ship or Young is going to send Eli to find Rush and Eli is going to stumble onto the bridge.

mere earthling
October 6th, 2010, 10:57 AM
I think Rush got a little heady with power from the events in "Intervention" which of course was detrimental to everyone else-well Riley. And damaged the remaining shuttle. He went on about Young messing up with the LA yet went and messed up himself.

I didn't particularly care for the suffocation, I think I understand why, but shooting him would've been more humane.

FallenAngelII
October 6th, 2010, 11:21 AM
I think that he should have, and in fact I expected him to, let Riley to do it himself by giving him a loaded gun. That way, it's merely suicide instead of assisted suicide, at best. Suffication is a painful and relatively slow way to die, especially when Riley was already "in pain" due to the crush injury. A bullet to the head is quick and painless (you die before your brain can register the pain).

We know that ammunition is scarce, but this is a man's life and dignity we're talking about. It should have been worth one bullet.

morbosfist
October 6th, 2010, 11:40 AM
You have to remember that Riley specifically turned downed the bullet because he didn't want to burden Young with yet another questionable decision. I doubt Riley would have shot himself even if Young had left the gun for him, and Young certainly wasn't going to shoot him against his wishes. That leaves the suffocation.

Hohenzollern
October 6th, 2010, 11:46 AM
Not pointing fault as it is currently a non issue; due to its inaccessibility -- there is undoubtedly equipment which would have helped Reilly <sp?> on board Destiny.

Destiny was fitted for extended voyage and logically this accommodation would have been made for her crew; extensive trauma type equipment, advanced medical operating theaters, etc. Obviously not "Atlantis grade" but more advanced than anything the team would have at their immediate disposal (brought with them).

That coupled with they have zero idea where it is, in what state it would be in; or even how to use such advanced items; makes what Young HAD to do all the more painful for him.

I am eager to know of the Destiny's mission; but wish Rush could put some effort into finding the equipment stores that would make their ordeal a tad more bearable. Ship manifests etc.

FallenAngelII
October 6th, 2010, 11:51 AM
You have to remember that Riley specifically turned downed the bullet because he didn't want to burden Young with yet another questionable decision. I doubt Riley would have shot himself even if Young had left the gun for him, and Young certainly wasn't going to shoot him against his wishes. That leaves the suffocation.
Uh... when did he turn down the bullet? When was he even offered one? He just said "Please, I'm in pain" and then Young suffocated him.

Also, a viable alternative was breaking his neck. Faster and more painless.

leiasky
October 6th, 2010, 11:53 AM
You have to remember that Riley specifically turned downed the bullet because he didn't want to burden Young with yet another questionable decision. I doubt Riley would have shot himself even if Young had left the gun for him, and Young certainly wasn't going to shoot him against his wishes. That leaves the suffocation.

Another questionable decision?

Suffocation isn't as questionable as a bullet to the brainpan (squish) dead instantly?

KEK
October 6th, 2010, 11:57 AM
Uh... when did he turn down the bullet? When was he even offered one? He just said "Please, I'm in pain" and then Young suffocated him.

Also, a viable alternative was breaking his neck. Faster and more painless.


"I'd ask for your gun, but I don't want them to blame you"

"Sir, please. I'm in pain."

That was Riley asking Young to end it, without using his gun. I agree with you that Young should have just used the gun anyway, and dealt with the consequences, but Riley did make it clear that he didn't want him to.

Briangate78
October 6th, 2010, 11:58 AM
I never thought I would ever see this thing on Stargate. Thumbs up!

If I were Riley, I would rather have told Young to shoot me in a head

Um you did watch SGA's "Rising" didn't you? Except Sheppard actually shot Sumner to kill him and end his suffering.

FallenAngelII
October 6th, 2010, 11:59 AM
That still leaves the option toe snap Riley's neck. Faster and more painless.

KEK
October 6th, 2010, 11:59 AM
Another questionable decision?

Suffocation isn't as questionable as a bullet to the brainpan (squish) dead instantly?

No one knows that Young put him out of his misery this way, with a bullet they would.

KEK
October 6th, 2010, 12:00 PM
That still leaves the option toe snap Riley's neck. Faster and more painless.

Not really, TJ would have been able to tell just as easily as if he'd done it with a bullet.

FallenAngelII
October 6th, 2010, 12:07 PM
Not really, TJ would have been able to tell just as easily as if he'd done it with a bullet.
Yes, because I'm sure TJ would've come back and done a thorough check of his spinal cord after he expired. I'm pretty sure that Riley's death due to suffocation was in itself highly questionable seeing as how he wasn't having problems breathing up until then nor was he dying anything soon (his face not yet so white that he was close to death due to blood loss).

KEK
October 6th, 2010, 12:13 PM
Yes, because I'm sure TJ would've come back and done a thorough check of his spinal cord after he expired. I'm pretty sure that Riley's death due to suffocation was in itself highly questionable seeing as how he wasn't having problems breathing up until then nor was he dying anything soon (his face not yet so white that he was close to death due to blood loss).

Are you serious? Do you realise the kind of trauma that type of neck break would cause? His neck would be black and blue. Suffocation leaves no trace, not without an autopsy anyway.

morbosfist
October 6th, 2010, 12:17 PM
Exactly. Suffocation leaves Young with an easy out. He says Riley passed on, and no one is going to do more than a cursory check. Riley knew this, and that's how he wanted it.


Another questionable decision?

Suffocation isn't as questionable as a bullet to the brainpan (squish) dead instantly?It's only questionable if people know you did it, and they don't. This way, only Young has to deal with it.

FallenAngelII
October 6th, 2010, 12:18 PM
Are you serious? Do you realise the kind of trauma that type of neck break would cause? His neck would be black and blue. Suffocation leaves no trace, not without an autopsy anyway.
He was wearing a high-collared jacket. Also, they were running out of the time. The first thing TJ would do would not to pull back the collar to check for neck injuries.

KEK
October 6th, 2010, 12:22 PM
I'm think you're underestimating what sort of state a neck snap like that would leave him in, also, his collar wasn't that high.

morbosfist
October 6th, 2010, 12:23 PM
He was wearing a high-collared jacket. Also, they were running out of the time. The first thing TJ would do would not to pull back the collar to check for neck injuries.She wouldn't need to. You snap someone's neck, the results are going to be immediate and obvious.

Lahela
October 6th, 2010, 12:41 PM
I think Young did the right thing. I don't like the way he did it (a bullet would have been kinder - yes, I know Riley effectively told him not to, then put his hands behind his back so he couldn't struggle, but Young should have done it anyway), but I'm glad he did it.

spinny magee
October 6th, 2010, 02:08 PM
For this neck snapping thing, i'm pretty sure TJ would have noticed that when she went back to the shuttle

Shadow_7
October 6th, 2010, 03:04 PM
With a bullet, there's no way for the faith aliens to magically heal him. And increase the collective. Same with a snapped neck. It might be interesting if the entire crew has super Chloe abilities because of the venom or some other (mis)-fortune.

The Mighty 6 platoon
October 6th, 2010, 04:44 PM
Um you did watch SGA's "Rising" didn't you? Except Sheppard actually shot Sumner to kill him and end his suffering.
Yeah, but in Rising we just see Sheppard shoot Sumner, bang, he’s dead. He doesn’t have to sit there for a good minute or so with his hand over Sumner's mouth staring him in the eyes.


With a bullet, there's no way for the faith aliens to magically heal him. And increase the collective. Same with a snapped neck. It might be interesting if the entire crew has super Chloe abilities because of the venom or some other (mis)-fortune.
Err, the super duper aliens who can build star systems and perhaps transport people across galaxies? How would it be unbelievable for them not to be able to heal a bullet wound? Not that I think Riley will come back it would cheapen his death, which was set up to be as horrible as possible, but frankly when we're talking godlike aliens, I think it's safe to say they could bring people back from the dead however they died. I mean if the Goa'uld could do it then I’m pretty sure it’s not a problem for them.

Mitchell82
October 6th, 2010, 07:38 PM
In terms of medical ethics I would agree with Young. Riley was going to die regardless and one of the highest part of medical ethics is that the patient chooses what he/she does with his/her body first. To that regard if Riley is to die its ethical to chose his wishes above your own.

As for Rush I find him responsible negligent homicide. His negligence of doing his job endangered everyone on the shuttle and killed Riley.

Finally an amputation is a lot more complex job. You just can't take a saw and cut off the leg. You have to very precise where you cut to prevent things like blood loss and nerve damange

Very well put. Also an amputation is very dangerous even in the best circumstances. Last seasons finale of House shows just how dangerous it is .

Aurora24
October 6th, 2010, 07:39 PM
I'm wondering who Riley though was going to blame Young for taking his life. Given the options of slowly dying alone on the shuttle, or dying relatively painlessly with the others still there, I would probably have made the same decision, only I'd ask to be shot because it would be over quickly. TJ and the others had to know that realistically there was no way that Riley was going to survive. I was kind of horrified when I watched Young kill him, but Young did what Riley wanted and killing him quickly was the most merciful thing that could be done under the circumstances. I don't see how anyone could condemn him for doing it.

As for Rush's involvement, sending the shuttle down was necessary because of the need for food and water, however given that Rush can now apparently control when the ship jumps in and out of FTL I think he should have prevented the ship from jumping and then made up some excuse to explain why they weren't moving. That way they could actually look for some food and water, as well as potentially having time to help Riley. I was actually hoping that they would bring some medical equipment and possibly get Koz to come and help TJ. I know Young doesn't trust the LA, but in a situation like that it would have made sense to bring along the only other person on the ship with medical training to help out. I'm not sure if that would have been enough to save Riley, but we'll never know because they didn't have the time to attempt to save him. As much as I like Rush I don't think he has the right to arbitrarily decided where the ship is going to go. Although I agree that Young is emotionally unstable (and we saw a great example of that when he attacked that LA soldier), Rush deciding that only he can control Destiny has proven to put the crew in equal danger. Rush needs to either come clean about what he's doing with the ship, although I'm sure he's going to be even more reluctant than before given that everyone will most likely hold him responsible for Riley's death.

Mitchell82
October 6th, 2010, 07:39 PM
For this neck snapping thing, i'm pretty sure TJ would have noticed that when she went back to the shuttle

He didn't snap his neck he suffocated him.

the fifth man
October 6th, 2010, 07:40 PM
Personally, I think Young honored the final wish of his dying officer. You could tell it wasn't easy on Young at all. I can't imagine how that will weigh on him.

morbosfist
October 6th, 2010, 08:31 PM
I'm wondering who Riley though was going to blame Young for taking his life. Given the options of slowly dying alone on the shuttle, or dying relatively painlessly with the others still there, I would probably have made the same decision, only I'd ask to be shot because it would be over quickly. TJ and the others had to know that realistically there was no way that Riley was going to survive. I was kind of horrified when I watched Young kill him, but Young did what Riley wanted and killing him quickly was the most merciful thing that could be done under the circumstances. I don't see how anyone could condemn him for doing it.Think of it this way. If Young had shot Riley on request or let him shoot himself, there would always be that little nagging thought of "maybe we could have saved him", regardless of the logic. By letting Riley pass on quietly, people don't ask themselves that. They accept that there was nothing to be done, and that Riley just didn't make it. They move on to mourning, instead of blaming. Riley knew this, and he wanted what was best for the crew.


As for Rush's involvement, sending the shuttle down was necessary because of the need for food and water, however given that Rush can now apparently control when the ship jumps in and out of FTL I think he should have prevented the ship from jumping and then made up some excuse to explain why they weren't moving. That way they could actually look for some food and water, as well as potentially having time to help Riley. I was actually hoping that they would bring some medical equipment and possibly get Koz to come and help TJ. I know Young doesn't trust the LA, but in a situation like that it would have made sense to bring along the only other person on the ship with medical training to help out. I'm not sure if that would have been enough to save Riley, but we'll never know because they didn't have the time to attempt to save him. As much as I like Rush I don't think he has the right to arbitrarily decided where the ship is going to go. Although I agree that Young is emotionally unstable (and we saw a great example of that when he attacked that LA soldier), Rush deciding that only he can control Destiny has proven to put the crew in equal danger. Rush needs to either come clean about what he's doing with the ship, although I'm sure he's going to be even more reluctant than before given that everyone will most likely hold him responsible for Riley's death.You've missed a key point here. Their proximity to the planet prevented the gate from establishing a connection, regardless of the operational status of the planetary gate. They had to jump. It was unavoidable. Rush had hoped that the gate could be repaired while the shuttle was on the planet. They'd come back with a small amount of supplies, the ship would jump, then he'd stop it again later for a much longer and easier supply run.

Things didn't play out that way. The shuttle crashed, so they needed to jump so the gate could be used. By the time the ship could stop again and help, Riley was as good as gone. There was no helping.


He didn't snap his neck he suffocated him.Read the rest of the discussion. No one is trying to claim otherwise.

puddlejumper747
October 6th, 2010, 08:55 PM
...well alright, no one else has said it yet, so I will. :rolleyes:

Young did not do the right thing; ethically, it was murder. That being said, there were various mitigating circumstances which tend to decrease Young's culpability... but they do not (and cannot) eliminate his guilt entirely. In the final scenario, Young was the immediate cause of Riley's death... and that's the problem. Morally acceptable options would have been to let Riley die of natural causes (provide anything you want to alleviate the suffering, but don't kill him), or else go ahead and pull him out from under the wreckage and do everything in your power to stop the bleeding, even if you have every reason to believe that you will not succeed, and that he will have bled out in seconds: same end result, no unethical means (direct intentional killing) used to attain that end.

It's a fine distinction, and I'm certain that most (if not all) of you here will disagree... but that's my position. Murder is never an ethical means of attaining a good end, regardless of whether or not the patient asks for it. Mitigating factors might significantly decrease the subjective guilt of the parties involved, but objectively it was the wrong decision, and could never have been otherwise.

I may or may not check back to see responses to this post... not sure I honestly have the time and/or motivation to engage in yet another ethical debate a-la-"Rising, Part 2". Yes, I held the same unpopular position then as I do now.

morbosfist
October 6th, 2010, 09:34 PM
Without going in too deep, I can only say that I respect the opinion, but wonder how long it would hold up in the absence of all the wonderful ways our society has to alleviate suffering.

Shadow_7
October 6th, 2010, 10:28 PM
And the warden in charge of death row gets brought up on murder charges all the time. NOT. Or our soldiers abroad killing all those combatants. It's a line, and it's an act. But every time you eat a salad, you killed a plant. How many innocent bugs are splatted on your windshield? What? Did I just see you swat a mosquito? What exactly do you intend to do with those chickens in your yard?

We just tend to think a little more about human life most of the time. Bear in mind that part of the training for the military is to think less of human life. Completion of the mission is primary, and if you happen to live in the process of doing so, good for you. At a minimum Rileys reduced capacities (no legs, constant need for pain management, negative impact on troop morale, ...) would have compromised the mission.

Seven hours on the clock when the shuttle left. One hour trip. So six hours before Destiny went into FTL. Another four hours until it came out of FTL and the gate could be used, if it was not burried. He wasn't exactly loosing a foot by the looks of things. He was pinned from the testicles down. So even IF IF IF, odds of surviving were very very very low.

Lahela
October 6th, 2010, 10:57 PM
ethically, it was murder.


No, legally, is was murder, in countries that do not allow euthanasia. The ethics is the point of debate.

TheChronoTrigger
October 6th, 2010, 11:26 PM
I'm surprised no one mentioned the juxtaposition of Young nearly strangling the LA guy in the hold and suffocating Riley. He looked really bewildered when he realized what he was doing in the hold, combined with the look on his face when Riley passed on. I wouldn't want to be Young right now.

Shadow_7
October 7th, 2010, 12:03 AM
No, legally, is was murder, in countries that do not allow euthanasia. The ethics is the point of debate.

There in lies the problem with legally. In what country did the murder take place? To which laws are the crew of Destiny subject? The point of departure was a planet other than earth. I doubt it applied for statehood like there rest of the union. The point of origin was under military control, are all of the Icarus people subject to the MCOJ? At which point mutiny is treason. The maximum punishment of which is death under the MCOJ. What about the non-earth new comers? POW's or citizens of different sort?

When a mission goes south and a crew member dies, who's liable? Act of God? Or some negligence liability in there? Liable to whom? The victims family? How exactly would payment be made? Or punishment carried out? They're already prisoners of sorts. They might be getting paid back on earth, but it's not like that's doing them any good.

garhkal
October 7th, 2010, 12:11 AM
Okay, did Young do the right thing? I think he did what had to be done and didn't involve anyone else because he didn't want to create a problem. Bringing others in, particularly Scott, could have been problematic. I certainly understand Reily didn't want to die slowly alone in the shuttle craft.

I also think it took a great deal of courage and intestinal fortitude for Young to step up and do what he did for Reily.

While i did not know them personally, 2 of my co-workers had families who opted for lifesupport removal so they would not die slowly and painfully... so i know how people can think that is the best way. And looking at Riley's situation i do think he made the best choice. And i love young's almost breaking out into tears, as he did the deed.



Rush, on the other hand, is screwing the pooch. Attempting to run Destiny by himself without assistance is not going to work. Reily is dead because of Rush's poor decision making. This is the biggest mistake Rush has made since coming onboard, in my opinion, because it resulted in Reily's death. While I think he's right that Young is not stable, and appears to be drinking on top of everything else, Rush has to bring in the rest of the crew. He'll never be able to run all the systems on his own.

How long do you think it will take before Rush tells someone about the Bridge or someone finds out where Rush has been disappearing off to?

I think it will come out next ep. We saw near the end when his 'wife' was berating him for riley's death, he was already smacking himself for it.. heck he even admitted it to 'her'..


And considering that TJ could have gated back to the Destiny and gotten any equipment she needed for an amputation I fail to see how your point, however spurious, about the lack of equipment is relevant?


And how do you know if she did perform a field amputation he would have survived anyway? Plus they don;t have anything i have seen to cart someone without legs around. BOTH would have had to be cut off to get him free.


I'm honestly surprised no one has tried to call Young a murderer for what he did with Riley, just because I know how easily some people leap to find fault in what Young does every week. The episode just aired though, so I can wait

Riley asked.. ergo there is no blame for Young.


I'm not sure what to make of Rush's actions. Negligible, arrogant at worst, but I think he believe what he's doing is the for the greater good. In hindsight sending them down to the planet was a mistake, but had the gamble paid off and they got the supplies they needed then it would have been a different matter. He has his flaws, but at least he's decisive.

I do believe that not telling the rest of the crew about the bridge is wrong though, he has no right to control their fate, especially without their knowing so.

Legally, he is culpable for negligent homicide. Morally, i am not so sure. How was he to know power would go out to the engines/shuttle? Or that where they would 'crash' into would cave in the cockpits front on riley.


But - how he did it was a horrible. Give up a bullet to make it quick and painless. Young would look better in my eyes had he done that.

Or just snap the neck. BUT had he done it with a bullet, the rest would have known what was done. MY personal belief is he should have left one pistol with a single bullet for riley to use.. much like Mccay did with that kid who got fed on in SGA ep the Definat one.


Destiny was fitted for extended voyage and logically this accommodation would have been made for her crew; extensive trauma type equipment, advanced medical operating theaters, etc. Obviously not "Atlantis grade" but more advanced than anything the team would have at their immediate disposal (brought with them).


If that was the case, where is it all at? We have not seen any of this, and much would have done wonders to help out in the last few eps.


I'm wondering who Riley though was going to blame Young for taking his life. Given the options of slowly dying alone on the shuttle, or dying relatively painlessly with the others still there, I would probably have made the same decision, only I'd ask to be shot because it would be over quickly. TJ and the others had to know that realistically there was no way that Riley was going to survive

Perhaps he felt young would be blaiming himself.. like he seemed to do after the crazy guys death.


I'm surprised no one mentioned the juxtaposition of Young nearly strangling the LA guy in the hold and suffocating Riley. He looked really bewildered when he realized what he was doing in the hold, combined with the look on his face when Riley passed on. I wouldn't want to be Young right now.

It did click to me the scene was some what erily similar.. especially since it was telford who had to drag him off.

Lahela
October 7th, 2010, 03:33 AM
There in lies the problem with legally. In what country did the murder take place? To which laws are the crew of Destiny subject? The point of departure was a planet other than earth. I doubt it applied for statehood like there rest of the union. The point of origin was under military control, are all of the Icarus people subject to the MCOJ? At which point mutiny is treason. The maximum punishment of which is death under the MCOJ. What about the non-earth new comers? POW's or citizens of different sort?

When a mission goes south and a crew member dies, who's liable? Act of God? Or some negligence liability in there? Liable to whom? The victims family? How exactly would payment be made? Or punishment carried out? They're already prisoners of sorts. They might be getting paid back on earth, but it's not like that's doing them any good.

The ethics of euthanasia form the basis for any discussion on its legality because any political stance is based entirely on personal ethics. There are endless questions regarding legality in the situation the Destiny crew find themselves in, but that would be a whole sub-forum on its own and off-topic for this particular discussion.

Personally, I think Young did the right thing, ethically, and I think any law that would stop him from doing it was enacted by a complete ass. But that's my personal ethics.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 7th, 2010, 03:46 AM
Shadow_7


There in lies the problem with legally. In what country did the murder take place? To which laws are the crew of Destiny subject? The point of departure was a planet other than earth. I doubt it applied for statehood like there rest of the union. The point of origin was under military control, are all of the Icarus people subject to the MCOJ? At which point mutiny is treason. The maximum punishment of which is death under the MCOJ. What about the non-earth new comers? POW's or citizens of different sort?

When a mission goes south and a crew member dies, who's liable? Act of God? Or some negligence liability in there? Liable to whom? The victims family? How exactly would payment be made? Or punishment carried out? They're already prisoners of sorts. They might be getting paid back on earth, but it's not like that's doing them any good.

You're applying the UCMJ to civilians? Doesn't that imply they are all under martial law and that Young is, as he's been accused, a Military Dictator to the civilians on the ship?

garhkal
October 7th, 2010, 04:03 AM
Personally, I think Young did the right thing, ethically, and I think any law that would stop him from doing it was enacted by a complete ass. But that's my personal ethics.

Same here.

FallenAngelII
October 7th, 2010, 04:20 AM
You're applying the UCMJ to civilians? Doesn't that imply they are all under martial law and that Young is, as he's been accused, a Military Dictator to the civilians on the ship?
Riley was military, though.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 7th, 2010, 04:38 AM
FA,

What does the UCMJ say about euthanasia if anything?

FallenAngelII
October 7th, 2010, 06:20 AM
FA,

What does the UCMJ say about euthanasia if anything?
How should I know? I'm not a member of an U.S. armed force. That said, I'm pretty sure that if you're in the U.S. armed forces, you still have to obey U.S. law and if there isn't a UCMJ statute which specifies that U.S. military personnel are subject to laws different from the general public, U.S. law takes precedence. And AFAIK, euthanasia is still illegal in the U.S.

For example, I'm pretty sure there isn't a specific UCMJ statute concerning paedophilia but if one were to commit a paedophilic act while in the employ of a U.S. armed forces, the U.S. would court marshall your tuchas and/or extradite you to face criminal court.

KEK
October 7th, 2010, 06:30 AM
They have to obey US law when they're in the US yes, but they're not. If there's a legality issue, then it'll be due to military regulations. But then out there, who cares?

Descended
October 7th, 2010, 07:37 AM
Are you serious? Do you realise the kind of trauma that type of neck break would cause? His neck would be black and blue. Suffocation leaves no trace, not without an autopsy anyway.

TJ could have identified his cause of death instantly, any type of asphyxiation like that will leave petechial hemorrhage on the face and eyes of the victim. Young should have manned up and shot him and dealt with the consequences, under the circumstances very few people would have objected.

I think Riley was just scared to die alone so he played up the pain to get Young to do it. If you remember of a few minutes before Young showed up he said there was no pain, he couldn't feel anything. People who are claiming that it is murder and that it never happens should research the practice of terminal sedation or the double-effect principle. Most medical groups and societies agree that performing an action that has the effect of alleviating pain and suffering is ethically justified even if it hastens the persons death. That happens in medicine and the military (hell it happens in Saving Private Ryan, when the medic is shot and they give him an over-dose of morphine to alleviate his pain and it kills him) When a cancer patient is barely breathing, doctors and families know that opioids will even further suppress their breathing, but most families will choose for their love one to be comfortable in death rather than screaming and possibly alive for a little while longer.

Young was ethically right in what he did but he should have used a gun as it would have been much more humane.

Shadow_7
October 7th, 2010, 07:38 AM
Given the contract anyone going to Icarus had to sign, why wouldn't they be subject to the UCMJ. Sure they didn't have to take the oath of obeying superiors. (even the ones that are idiots). But I'm sure that it's a bit more than a non-disclosure agreement.

xxxevilgrinxxx
October 7th, 2010, 07:40 AM
Personally, I think Young did the right thing, ethically, and I think any law that would stop him from doing it was enacted by a complete ass. But that's my personal ethics.
guess you can add one more to that opinion :)

SBN
October 7th, 2010, 01:55 PM
Young was ethically right in what he did but he should have used a gun as it would have been much more humane.

More humane for whom? Young could have just left a gun and walked off, but that would be the most impersonal. What he did on the other hand was the most personal, and in a way that may be difficult to explain or understand was humane. Taking someone's life, unlike portrayed for years in movies and TV, is just not as easy as one thinks. However we could argue that Young leaving a gun and walking off is very cold and impersonal to BOTH him and Riley. In his last moments Riley understood and accepted fully that Young in some ways was making a sacrifice of himself in order to help him. I might go so far to say that this was more comforting to Riley, the personal nature, as opposed to the impersonal "here is a gun, enjoy".

As someone else has pointed out, this episode really was about Young and Rush, not Riley's death. Whether this worked out in the end remains to be seen. I think it depends somewhat on how you view Young. For those that really did not get into this show or episode, and thought that Riley was the only character of interest, then this episode was a failure to them. Opposite that the element succeeded as it provided a chance in the story for both characters to face the consequences of their actions. Suffice to say this will not be the last of this issue, I am sure this will linger on for a few episodes at least.

puddlejumper747
October 7th, 2010, 02:03 PM
No, legally, is was murder, in countries that do not allow euthanasia. The ethics is the point of debate.
:confused: …of course the ethics is the point of the debate, which is why I said absolutely nothing about the legality of the matter in my post. My position (though you disagree) is that ethically it was murder, and could not have been otherwise, regardless of whether it is legal or not.


And the warden in charge of death row gets brought up on murder charges all the time. NOT. Or our soldiers abroad killing all those combatants. It's a line, and it's an act.
Let’s not de-rail this argument into a debate about capital punishment, war, and self defense. This is a question specifically pertaining to euthanasia (or “mercy killing”). I have no intention of arguing about the ethical nature of other forms of killing. As it so happens, our two positions might be closer than you expect: I would say (and I suspect you would agree) that there are conditions under which killing can be ethical, and other conditions under which killing is not (and perhaps never can never be) ethical, in which case it’s called murder. I think we simply disagree about the nature of this particular case.


But every time you eat a salad, you killed a plant. How many innocent bugs are splatted on your windshield? What? Did I just see you swat a mosquito? What exactly do you intend to do with those chickens in your yard?

We just tend to think a little more about human life most of the time.
Again, you misunderstand my position… perhaps deliberately. Ethical objections that others might maintain against killing plants and animals in general have absolutely nothing to do with my position.


When a mission goes south and a crew member dies, who's liable? Act of God? Or some negligence liability in there?
When Young smothered Riley, he stepped into the situation and made himself the immediate cause of Riley’s death… and that’s what I have a problem with in this particular situation, though I realize you disagree. If Young had not smothered Riley, the primarily liability for Riley’s death could have much more easily been placed on Rush, or God, or the planet, or whoever/whatever else you want.


The ethics of euthanasia form the basis for any discussion on its legality because any political stance is based entirely on personal ethics.
So we do agree…


Personally, I think Young did the right thing, ethically, and I think any law that would stop him from doing it was enacted by a complete ass. But that's my personal ethics.
…and once again strongly disagree. :rolleyes: *shrugs* Such is life.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 7th, 2010, 02:09 PM
Shadow_7,


Given the contract anyone going to Icarus had to sign, why wouldn't they be subject to the UCMJ. Sure they didn't have to take the oath of obeying superiors. (even the ones that are idiots). But I'm sure that it's a bit more than a non-disclosure agreement.

Do you have a PDF of this contract indicating Civilians would be subject to the UCMJ when the were at Icarus?

beafly
October 7th, 2010, 02:32 PM
The two things bothering me about the above situation.

They have all the time they need to save Riley. However rush has unilaterally made the decision to leave Destiny on Auto Pilot and is protecting himself by not offering to keep Destiny there long enough to at least make a proper attempt at saving him.

They can bring a true doctor in to perform the actual amputation.

Shadow_7
October 7th, 2010, 02:35 PM
No, but it wasn't exactly a one pager now was it? And not that it would apply given jurisdiction issues. But since the stones keep them tied to earth, they (at least some of them) are tied to be bound by their original agreements. Whatever they were.

i.e. When Volker starts tearing apart a deck of the ship that they're not using to make a monster truck venue, I fully expect someone to stop him claiming that hey, that's not yours, leave it alone. But the parts for Brody's still which I doubt were entirely expedition supplies were probably scavenged in that manner.

Commander Zelix
October 7th, 2010, 02:53 PM
Um you did watch SGA's "Rising" didn't you? Except Sheppard actually shot Sumner to kill him and end his suffering.
Yeah, but in Rising we just see Sheppard shoot Sumner, bang, he’s dead. He doesn’t have to sit there for a good minute or so with his hand over Sumner's mouth staring him in the eyes.

You are both right. Obviously mercy killing is not something new on TV or movies, so as everything it's the little or big change in how it's done that makes it interesting. Yes, Sheppard did about the same thing in SGA. So the fact that Young "had" to do it with his bare hands makes it something pretty cool that add something to the previous mercy killing moments in TV and movies.

xxxevilgrinxxx
October 7th, 2010, 04:12 PM
More humane for whom? Young could have just left a gun and walked off, but that would be the most impersonal. What he did on the other hand was the most personal, and in a way that may be difficult to explain or understand was humane. Taking someone's life, unlike portrayed for years in movies and TV, is just not as easy as one thinks. However we could argue that Young leaving a gun and walking off is very cold and impersonal to BOTH him and Riley. In his last moments Riley understood and accepted fully that Young in some ways was making a sacrifice of himself in order to help him. I might go so far to say that this was more comforting to Riley, the personal nature, as opposed to the impersonal "here is a gun, enjoy".

that was beautifully put and gets to the natures of both Young and Riley well

and yes, it's definitely not easier for Young to stay there to do what, I believe, he had to do, but, again -IMO, it was the right thing to do

we seem to get that a lot with his character - where so many will see it as ethically, morally, militarily challenged but where, when we understand what drives him, it's right. Like stripping the brainwashing from Telford, stranding Rush, choosing to save Telford/Rush during the incursion or, here choosing to kill Riley.

FallenAngelII
October 7th, 2010, 04:14 PM
They have to obey US law when they're in the US yes, but they're not. If there's a legality issue, then it'll be due to military regulations. But then out there, who cares?
No, they have to obey USMJ and U.S. laws while under the employ of an U.S. armed forces.

Shan Bruce Lee
October 7th, 2010, 04:30 PM
I probably would've done the same thing. Then again, with my luck it probably would've ended up like Sawyer shooting the Marshall...

Descended
October 7th, 2010, 05:35 PM
More humane for whom?.

I was talking about the mechanics, a gunshot to the brain is instantaneous unconsciousness if not death, while suffocation is an extremely unpleasant way to die. Young could have shot him himself and it would have been just as personal and heartfelt, I wasn't suggesting he leave a gun and go outside.

Suffocation causes an intense panic response when you are unable to breath, and though Riley wanted to die, he fought against Young's hands, trying to move his head back and forth because it is instinctual behavior in that situation. I have no doubt that during those seconds that was torture for Riley and if he could have talked he would have said "Stop" - there is a reason why waterboarding is torture, as it plays on exactly the same response. That was a horrible way for Riley to die, and it was only because Young wanted to cover it up. He could have shot Riley and put him out of his misery and I am sure that no one there at the shuttle would have objected since they knew the situation was hopeless. It most likely wouldn't have even made it back to Destiny and Wray's scheming. I doubt TJ or Scott or Grier would have told her that Riley didn't die of natural causes.

morbosfist
October 7th, 2010, 05:58 PM
That was a horrible way for Riley to die, and it was only because Young wanted to cover it up. He could have shot Riley and put him out of his misery and I am sure that no one there at the shuttle would have objected since they knew the situation was hopeless.You've missed much of that scene. This was not Young's decision. Riley specifically denied the use of a gun because he felt the crew would blame Young (misplaced or not, Riley arguably had a point there), but still wanted to die. He told Young to do him in and knew how it was going down. Young could have gone against Riely's wishes and shot him, true, but ultimately how Young went about it was Riley's decision.

KEK
October 7th, 2010, 06:06 PM
No, they have to obey USMJ and U.S. laws while under the employ of an U.S. armed forces.

I find that difficult to believe. What happens when they're stationed in countries that's laws run contrary to the US's?

Rudy Pena
October 7th, 2010, 09:54 PM
This is to let you all know,

Any and all Civilians DO NOT fall under the Uniform Code of Military Justice(UCMJ). The UCMJ only applies to the U.S. Military branches of the Armed Services.


All U.S. Military Personal have to follow the Country's Laws that they are based in when they are not on the U.S. Military Base( I.E. Germany, S. Korea, Italy, Japan etc ect).

Lahela
October 7th, 2010, 10:46 PM
:confused: …of course the ethics is the point of the debate, which is why I said absolutely nothing about the legality of the matter in my post. My position (though you disagree) is that ethically it was murder, and could not have been otherwise, regardless of whether it is legal or not.


But that's the problem - the definition of murder isn't based on ethical codes but on legal ones. What about justifiable homicide? What about self defense? What about capital punishment? What about acts of war? What makes euthanasia "murder" but not those things? Is is because they are state sanctioned? If so, then the definition of murder isn't based on ethical codes but legal ones.

Blackhole
October 9th, 2010, 10:28 AM
Okay, did Young do the right thing? I think he did what had to be done and didn't involve anyone else because he didn't want to create a problem. Bringing others in, particularly Scott, could have been problematic. I certainly understand Reily didn't want to die slowly alone in the shuttle craft.

I also think it took a great deal of courage and intestinal fortitude for Young to step up and do what he did for Reily.

Rush, on the other hand, is screwing the pooch. Attempting to run Destiny by himself without assistance is not going to work. Reily is dead because of Rush's poor decision making. This is the biggest mistake Rush has made since coming onboard, in my opinion, because it resulted in Reily's death. While I think he's right that Young is not stable, and appears to be drinking on top of everything else, Rush has to bring in the rest of the crew. He'll never be able to run all the systems on his own.

How long do you think it will take before Rush tells someone about the Bridge or someone finds out where Rush has been disappearing off to?

I don't think Rush should have made a unilateral decision to send the shuttle. That being said, I don't think Rush is automatically culpable for Riley's death. It all depends on how desperate their supply situation was and how long they would likely have had to wait for another habitable planet. If Young would likely have made the same decision to risk the shuttle given the danger then Rush would not have been responsible. If the supply situation wasn't desperate enough to warrant risking the shuttle then he was. If the call could have gone either way then his decision would have been poor judgment. The situations Destiny faces are very dangerous and lives are going to be lost. It is always very easy and often not fair to judge a situation with 20/20 hindsight.

Given how the circumstances played out I think it more likely that Rush didn’t made the right decision and does bear responsibility for Riley’s death.

Shadow_7
October 9th, 2010, 02:57 PM
All U.S. Military Personal have to follow the Country's Laws that they are based in when they are not on the U.S. Military Base( I.E. Germany, S. Korea, Italy, Japan etc ect).[/B]

Until such time as said country starts shooting at you. At which point murder is legal. Note that shooting is a broader term than just bullets. Poisonous gas, IEDs, grenades, rocket launchers / RPG, butchers knife, apply under the rules of engagement. Unfortunately modern warfare takes place in a civilian jungle now. So civilian casualties are not only possible, but likely.

Bear in mind that we do have a draft over here. So from a certain point of view, the civilians on Destiny were DRAFTED when they boarded that ship. A draft does not require consent.

Rudy Pena
October 9th, 2010, 03:03 PM
Until such time as said country starts shooting at you. At which point murder is legal. Note that shooting is a broader term than just bullets. Poisonous gas, IEDs, grenades, rocket launchers / RPG, butchers knife, apply under the rules of engagement. Unfortunately modern warfare takes place in a civilian jungle now. So civilian casualties are not only possible, but likely.

Bear in mind that we do have a draft over here. So from a certain point of view, the civilians on Destiny were DRAFTED when they boarded that ship. A draft does not require consent.

They were not drafted, as they have no miltary training or rank or getting the benefits as Military personal.

Shadow_7
October 9th, 2010, 08:10 PM
They were not drafted, as they have no miltary training or rank or getting the benefits as Military personal.

For a lot of them, that would mean a pay cut. And yes they were. Or will be. I'm sure that at some point in the series, every single crew member (left alive) is going to have to yield a weapon. And probably use it. The military is only good up until the point they get themselves killed. And without the reinforcement opportunity, tag, you're it.

tinerin
October 9th, 2010, 08:21 PM
For a lot of them, that would mean a pay cut. And yes they were. Or will be. I'm sure that at some point in the series, every single crew member (left alive) is going to have to yield a weapon. And probably use it. The military is only good up until the point they get themselves killed. And without the reinforcement opportunity, tag, you're it.

No, they haven't been drafted. If they were drafted then they would all be military and there would be no distinguishing between civilian and military personnel, especially by any of the officers. Drafting in the US requires Congress to pass legislation that the President must sign into law. A draft is also required to be a random selection process and women are exempt from being drafted in the US. Not to mention that non-US citizens, for what should be very obvious international law reasons, cannot be drafted into the US military.

Rudy Pena
October 9th, 2010, 08:27 PM
They have not been drafted in any way yet, so therefore they are not in the US Military. Trust me, I know...Im in the US Military, I see alot of Government Contractors and work with them but they are not US Military and do not fall under the UCMJ.

morbosfist
October 9th, 2010, 08:33 PM
As Colonel Young so helpfully points out in "Subversion": "Yes, and we're both a billion light years away from the nearest disciplinary hearing, so, what?"

Ultimately, when you're this far away from civilization, there's just some points where you need to bend the rules. They still have a lone back to Earth, of course, but that's as far as it goes.

Gollumpus
October 9th, 2010, 08:54 PM
I would have liked to have seen Rush involved in Riley's final moments. If it was Rush who had to suffocate Riley that would have been a big shock to his system. As it stands, he can know that all of it was his fault, but Riley's death wasn't as personal to Rush as it was to Young. Perhaps a personal "touch" on Rush's part would mean that in future he wouldn't be as cavalier with other peoples lives.

regards,
G.

SciFiRick
October 9th, 2010, 09:10 PM
Until such time as said country starts shooting at you. At which point murder is legal. Note that shooting is a broader term than just bullets. Poisonous gas, IEDs, grenades, rocket launchers / RPG, butchers knife, apply under the rules of engagement. Unfortunately modern warfare takes place in a civilian jungle now. So civilian casualties are not only possible, but likely.

Bear in mind that we do have a draft over here. So from a certain point of view, the civilians on Destiny were DRAFTED when they boarded that ship. A draft does not require consent.

There are many definitions of "Draft" but the part that is referencing your opinion states (a selection or drawing of persons, by lot or otherwise, from the general body of the people for military service; levy; conscription. The persons so selected) and IMO the civilians that were on the Icarus planet were "selected" (and you can use the word drafted) for their expertise or support of the base except for visitors such as the Senator and his daughter. Once the base was attacked and the only seemingly way to safety was to go thru the gate. They became victims of circumstances. Not to say that they shouldn't band together as one.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 10th, 2010, 04:53 AM
Shadow_7,


For a lot of them, that would mean a pay cut. And yes they were. Or will be. I'm sure that at some point in the series, every single crew member (left alive) is going to have to yield a weapon. And probably use it. The military is only good up until the point they get themselves killed. And without the reinforcement opportunity, tag, you're it.

You're reaching now. There is absolutely nothing to indicate these civilians have been "drafted." Couple of points. First, women in the U.S. are not subject to the draft. Second, there are age limits on who may be drafted in the U.S. After age 30 I don't have to tell the Draft board where I live. After age 40 I'm no longer subject to the draft. Finally, you don't get drafted into the Air Force or the Marines. Those forces are volunteer and have always been all volunteer. If these people were drafted they'd be considered U.S. Army for which there are no officers or NCOs on board.

Therefore, while, theoretically, they could be drafted, many would be exempt and it would create more problems than it would solve.

Morbo,

So, Young is a military dictator ruling arbitrarily at the point of a gun? Isn't that exactly what Wray and Rush were accusing him of being in "Divided"?

morbosfist
October 10th, 2010, 08:24 AM
So, Young is a military dictator ruling arbitrarily at the point of a gun? Isn't that exactly what Wray and Rush were accusing him of being in "Divided"?And yet again you jump to the worst possible extreme to deny an argument. It means nothing of the sort.

Rudy Pena
October 10th, 2010, 08:29 AM
I agree with Ser Scot A Ellison. :)

Shadow_7,



You're reaching now. There is absolutely nothing to indicate these civilians have been "drafted." Couple of points. First, women in the U.S. are not subject to the draft. Second, there are age limits on who may be drafted in the U.S. After age 30 I don't have to tell the Draft board where I live. After age 40 I'm no longer subject to the draft. Finally, you don't get drafted into the Air Force or the Marines. Those forces are volunteer and have always been all volunteer. If these people were drafted they'd be considered U.S. Army for which there are no officers or NCOs on board.

Therefore, while, theoretically, they could be drafted, many would be exempt and it would create more problems than it would solve.

Morbo,

So, Young is a military dictator ruling arbitrarily at the point of a gun? Isn't that exactly what Wray and Rush were accusing him of being in "Divided"?

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 10th, 2010, 10:46 AM
morbo,


As Colonel Young so helpfully points out in "Subversion": "Yes, and we're both a billion light years away from the nearest disciplinary hearing, so, what?"

Ultimately, when you're this far away from civilization, there's just some points where you need to bend the rules. They still have a lone back to Earth, of course, but that's as far as it goes.

Where else can you go with this quote. I like Young. I simply think he lets his emotions get the better of him, on a regular basis.

morbosfist
October 10th, 2010, 10:54 AM
Where else can you go with this quote. I like Young. I simply think he lets his emotions get the better of him, on a regular basis.Let's see: you can go with "dealing with the Alliance prisoners may require some mistreatment" and numerous other things. Like our arguments in the War thread, you always pick the worst possible interpretation. When has Young ever needed to rule by gunpoint?

Confessor Rahl
October 10th, 2010, 11:56 AM
This is actually my favorite episode of the show so far due to so many different factors. To those saying amputation was an option, watch the show. You will realize given the circumstances that it never was an option. The moment between Young and Riley was extremely well done and very emotional for me, as was the conversation between TJ and Riley. Very revealing stuff. I have always had mixed feelings for both characters, but this was certainly an episode that won me points with both of them.

squirrely1
October 10th, 2010, 12:45 PM
Yes very powerful episode for me as well ....probably the first one that made me cry....because is was just so controversial and brought on such a moral dilemma.

First off I agree with all the people here that Riley was just too badly injured for them to be able to successfully try and amputate his legs. They could barely move the console off of him without him screaming in agony and to have them go through that as well as an amputation would have surely put him in shock not to mention the blood loss involved :S :( I just don't see it as a viable solution given their situation. And time was such a factor in all of this remember.

What I felt upset about was that they did not bring his body back to the Destiny with them....to give him a proper burial. That concerned me :S :S Even if a proper burial is to be jettisoned out into space....at least they could have had a ceremony for him and allowed other crew members to say their goodbyes. :(

As far as who is to blame. I don't think it is anyone's fault persay.... Rush is being selfish and self serving true....but he is trying his level best to learn all he can about the Destiny in an attempts to gain full control so they may have a chance to get home. I think Rush struggles with his decisions internally and wants to do the right thing but then opts for the selfish act. :S

Young wasn't a murderer. He was trying to honor Riley's dying wish. I think this is going to haunt Young for a long time :S :(

As for Scott...he clearly wasn't at fault as many have mentioned he had no control over the ship. I'm just surprised not more people were injured :S

And on a side note.....what was the deal that there was no Chloe in this ep and even no mention of her? :confused: Did anyone else think that was odd?

morbosfist
October 10th, 2010, 12:49 PM
Chloe just didn't fit in this plot. They could have worked her in when the shuttle crashed or had her show up when Destiny was able to dial back, but ultimately the plot was about how these people dealt with Riley's death. I think we haven't seen enough interaction between them to work her in.

Azzers
October 10th, 2010, 05:07 PM
Let's see: you can go with "dealing with the Alliance prisoners may require some mistreatment" and numerous other things. Like our arguments in the War thread, you always pick the worst possible interpretation. When has Young ever needed to rule by gunpoint?

You have had arguments on the internet before right? ;) We all go for the worst interpretation.

Just from this quote, obviously he needed to in "Divided" because the civilians basically asked the military to surrender their arms and the military said "no." I'm not saying I disagree with Young's actions there, but at that point he is certainly not ruling by deliberative discussion.

I've got not dog in this hunt though.

My opinion is that Young is hanging on by a thread, but he's had quite a bit of bad thrown at him. I hate to say this, but his job is only 20 times harder BECAUSE he has such subversive relationships with both Wray and Rush. And all three are culpable, it's not Young's problem alone.

morbosfist
October 10th, 2010, 05:26 PM
True, he has needed gunpoint for certain instances (the lottery in "Light", "Divided"), but he's a big step from going guns all the time.

Descended
October 10th, 2010, 06:58 PM
Shadow_7,
You're reaching now. There is absolutely nothing to indicate these civilians have been "drafted." Couple of points. First, women in the U.S. are not subject to the draft. Second, there are age limits on who may be drafted in the U.S. After age 30 I don't have to tell the Draft board where I live. After age 40 I'm no longer subject to the draft. Finally, you don't get drafted into the Air Force or the Marines. Those forces are volunteer and have always been all volunteer. If these people were drafted they'd be considered U.S. Army for which there are no officers or NCOs on board.

Therefore, while, theoretically, they could be drafted, many would be exempt and it would create more problems than it would solve.

Morbo,

So, Young is a military dictator ruling arbitrarily at the point of a gun? Isn't that exactly what Wray and Rush were accusing him of being in "Divided"?

I think the problem here is with the word "draft" - I think the poster meant "pressed into service" not like an actual draft, similar to what used to happen when people were shanghaied... you were forced to fight or you were killed, like the recruiting policies in Afghanistan with the Taliban.

It could be possible that they would declare it a martial law scenario and have a full military take over, but it wouldn't really do much more than alienate the civilians even further and make them actively try to oppose your goals, rather than their current grumbling acceptance.

The truth of the matter is that the civilians would be firmly in charge if Eli wasn't Young's little *****, because without the cooperation of Rush, Eli and Vocker the military personnel would be screwed within a week when the ship broke down since they can't fix anything.

Shadow_7
October 10th, 2010, 11:57 PM
pressed into service would be a better terminology. Which there situation pretty much dictates, civilian or not. I mean Eli is manning Destiny's weapons when they're attacked. He's not military. Rush is enhancing the shields, he's not military. It would be nice to see Camile move some rocks for a change. But I digress the leader doesn't actually have to do any physical work. NOT!

garhkal
October 11th, 2010, 01:14 AM
Pressed into service... i agree makes more sense than saying they were drafted.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 11th, 2010, 05:38 AM
If these people are "pressed into service" how would such involutary servitude not justify a response in opposition to those who are demanding their services and obedience without their assent?

Gollumpus
October 11th, 2010, 08:42 AM
This silly argument again.

I'll go you one better. Since they are now untold numbers of galaxies away from Earth, I say that the military are no longer bound to follow the military command structure. As Young himself has pointed out to Telford, they are a long ways away from a military court-martial. ANARCHY NOW!!!!

regards,
G.

Azzers
October 11th, 2010, 11:12 AM
This silly argument again.

I'll go you one better. Since they are now untold numbers of galaxies away from Earth, I say that the military are no longer bound to follow the military command structure. As Young himself has pointed out to Telford, they are a long ways away from a military court-martial. ANARCHY NOW!!!!

regards,
G.

The problem is the same one whenever someone casts off a form of government. It has to be stable. A junta in this instance is going to be inherantly unstable because you have extremely intelligent scientists ruled over by pragmatic (but arguably slightly less intelligent) people with guns. The problem with that situation, is they are living in a highly mechanized environment, not some vast expanse of land. Those machines can be turned on the military, in open space you're kinda screwed.

It is in fact Young's openly acknowledging that laws have ceased to be applicable that will probably get him in a world of trouble. And unlike before, there is someone of equal rank to take over. Abdication of the rule of law is anarchy after all. You don't need to call for it, it's already there.