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Vanek26
October 5th, 2010, 09:06 PM
Yeah not too sure how this goes.

I remember hearing, Wray I think, say something like "the war in the Milky Way with the Lucian Alliance is heating up" and that they have received intel about a possible attack on Earth.

You guys think this will be explored on screen?

Pharaoh Atem
October 5th, 2010, 09:09 PM
we at least 5 304's 4 of them have Asgard beam weapons. plus Atlantis is on earth drones and puddle jumpers. plus jaffa nation support.

the leather alliance doesn't stand a chance.

jelgate
October 5th, 2010, 09:10 PM
we at least 5 304's 4 of them have Asgard beam weapons. plus Atlantis is on earth drones and puddle jumpers. plus jaffa nation support.

the leather alliance doesn't stand a chance.
Advanced weapons suddenly lose their advantage when your enemy has more numbers

morbosfist
October 5th, 2010, 09:10 PM
Definitely. I think this will be a minor subplot throughout the season. Now that the invasion has happened, even though the Alliance couldn't know it, the Alliance might be tempted to consolidate their power and knock off the only competition. Even with their better tech, Earth is in for a fight.

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
October 5th, 2010, 09:12 PM
Probably Not. Even though Seizure and Alliances I think it is take place on earth. Would be nice to see though.

GateroomGuard
October 5th, 2010, 09:14 PM
we at least 5 304's 4 of them have Asgard beam weapons. plus Atlantis is on earth drones and puddle jumpers. plus jaffa nation support.

the leather alliance doesn't stand a chance.

1 cloaked cargo ship delivers naquadriah bomb in New York City.

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
October 5th, 2010, 09:15 PM
I think with General O'Neill corrdinating the attack from Homeworld Command and Colonel Carter Commanding the George Hammond Earth will put up a decent fight.

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
October 5th, 2010, 09:22 PM
1 cloaked cargo ship delivers naquadriah bomb in New York City.

I think if they did that the SG Program will be exposed.

morbosfist
October 5th, 2010, 09:24 PM
If the enemy is dropping cloaked bombs on your cities, secrecy is the least of your worries.

GateroomGuard
October 5th, 2010, 09:26 PM
I think if they did that the SG Program will be exposed.

Less so than a full scale Hatak and deathglider assualt on Earth. If the LA go the bomb route Earth still can pull a cover story, if they full scale invade then all of Earth will mobilize. Rather than having just 4-5 304s Earth will start churning them out 3-4 a week.

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
October 5th, 2010, 09:30 PM
Less so than a full scale Hatak and deathglider assualt on Earth. If the LA go the bomb route Earth still can pull a cover story, if they full scale invade then all of Earth will mobilize. Rather than having just 4-5 304s Earth will start churning them out 3-4 a week.

Wonder if those IOA Scuzzbuckets will probably dig their collective Butts in the sand. Stargate Command needs to do something about these IOA Idiots.

tinerin
October 5th, 2010, 09:31 PM
Less so than a full scale Hatak and deathglider assualt on Earth. If the LA go the bomb route Earth still can pull a cover story, if they full scale invade then all of Earth will mobilize. Rather than having just 4-5 304s Earth will start churning them out 3-4 a week.

It wouldn't necessarily be that simple considering that none of the special materials needed to build a 304 exist in our solar system...

Also, what about all of the political aspects? Countries like North Korea, Iran and Venezuela would take any excuse to attack the US and we'd end up having to either give up control of the entire program or going to war with the rest of the planet.

morbosfist
October 5th, 2010, 09:34 PM
It wouldn't necessarily be that simple considering that none of the special materials needed to build a 304 exist in our solar system...Hasn't stopped us from building no less than 6 interstellar warships and a gaggle of fighters. The Stargate makes supplies easy to retrieve.


Also, what about all of the political aspects? Countries like North Korea, Iran and Venezuela would take any excuse to attack the US and we'd end up having to either give up control of the entire program or going to war with the rest of the planet.Countries like North Korea, Iran and Venezuela would very quickly get beaten when the US beamed all their nukes into deep space and threatened to turn their armies into molten glass if they didn't shut their mouths. Seriously, if the invasion came and it was time to defend the planet, the rest of the world would not have a say in the matter.

Pharaoh Atem
October 5th, 2010, 09:39 PM
1 cloaked cargo ship delivers naquadriah bomb in New York City.

i'll move back to texas

themeatcleaver
October 5th, 2010, 09:40 PM
Advanced weapons suddenly lose their advantage when your enemy has more numbers

It worked for the Ori...

I read a spoiler a while back that season two will have a massive space battle. at the time i was thinking it was going to occur with destiny but now i'm thinking it will be in the Milky Way. Man it would be nice to see Atlantis kick some serious ass again defending the planet. Sidenote: if anyone has further info on this please dont spoil me, i dont wanna know! haha

jelgate
October 5th, 2010, 09:42 PM
It worked for the Ori...

I read a spoiler a while back that season two will have a massive space battle. at the time i was thinking it was going to occur with destiny but now i'm thinking it will be in the Milky Way. Man it would be nice to see Atlantis kick some serious ass again defending the planet. Sidenote: if anyone has further info on this please dont spoil me, i dont wanna know! haha
It also didn't work for the Ancients in Pegasus

tinerin
October 5th, 2010, 09:43 PM
Hasn't stopped us from building no less than 6 interstellar warships and a gaggle of fighters. The Stargate makes supplies easy to retrieve.

And we know how easy it is to cut off a single planet's access to the stargate system...


Countries like North Korea, Iran and Venezuela would very quickly get beaten when the US beamed all their nukes into deep space and threatened to turn their armies into molten glass if they didn't shut their mouths. Seriously, if the invasion came and it was time to defend the planet, the rest of the world would not have a say in the matter.

Keep in mind that one of the 304's is Chinese and it's very likely that the Russians and Chinese are just waiting for the right moment to take power away from the US. If the US were to abuse their advanced technology to beam North Korea's nukes away that would probably even convince Israel and Britain to turn on the US. And the fact is that those aren't the only three countries who are anti-US. Venezuela has military alliances with Cuba, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Honduras and a bunch of other South American countries and even Russia and North Korea is pretty much backed by China so for the US to take unilateral action against them would be very bad (not to mention that it goes against everything that the UN stands for)...

morbosfist
October 5th, 2010, 09:43 PM
It worked for the Ori...Yeah, but they had the benefit of dealing with people who weren't even willing to attack them, much less commit entire fleets to it. If they had brought the kind of world-crushing force Ba'al did to Earth in Continuum, they might have stood a chance.


I read a spoiler a while back that season two will have a massive space battle. at the time i was thinking it was going to occur with destiny but now i'm thinking it will be in the Milky Way. Man it would be nice to see Atlantis kick some serious ass again defending the planet. Sidenote: if anyone has further info on this please dont spoil me, i dont wanna know! hahaThere's no details beyond the basics, though it probably won't go down that way given what we've seen in previews.


And we know how easy it is to cut off a single planet's access to the stargate system...Which is? Keep in mind the methods used thus far have all been countered.


Keep in mind that one of the 304's is Chinese and it's very likely that the Russians and Chinese are just waiting for the right moment to take power away from the US. If the US were to abuse their advanced technology to beam North Korea's nukes away that would probably even convince Israel and Britain to turn on the US. And the fact is that those aren't the only three countries who are anti-US. Venezuela has military alliances with Cuba, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Honduras and a bunch of other South American countries and even Russia and North Korea is pretty much backed by China so for the US to take unilateral action against them would be very bad (not to mention that it goes against everything that the UN stands for)...The Chinese 304 was crippled last we heard. They aren't in a position to do anything. Anyway, the Chinese and Russians would have to side with the US. They aren't stupid. If war is coming, you stick with the people who know what they're doing. But frankly, even if they did want to pull something, they wouldn't be a position to. The US has a lot of firepower to back up their side, and I seriously doubt they'd be willing to push the issue knowing what could happen.

GateroomGuard
October 5th, 2010, 09:45 PM
If the Lucian Alliance launched a full scale invasion then all they would do is wake up a massive giant and fill him with an incredible rage. If Earth threw all it's manpower and resources into a galactic war the Lucian Alliance would be wiped out. Which the Lucian Alliance probably knows so they wouldn't want to unleash that force upon them. Either they destroy the earth with a few hundred naquadriah bombs or they leave the actual planet Earth alone, it's the only intelligent choice they can make.

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
October 5th, 2010, 09:48 PM
That massive space battle is in resurgence. And it's between the destiny and probably an unknown foe or the smurfs

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
October 5th, 2010, 09:50 PM
The writers are trying to whet our appetite I don't think we'll see an attack

tinerin
October 5th, 2010, 09:51 PM
If Earth threw all it's manpower and resources into a galactic war the Lucian Alliance would be wiped out.

Do you really know that for sure though? I'd bet could eventually win like the Wraith did with Atlantis but it would just take a significant amount of time and losses. Even if we assumed Earth had enough resources stockpiled to bring our fleet up to a dozen 304's the Lucian Alliance could easily prevent us from using the stargate to build more ships or even repair our existing ships. So we'd have to spread out our fleet between defending Earth, attacking the Alliance and defending our offworld facilities if we are to have any hope of getting more resources. Eventually, we'd be stuck with just Atlantis which has a limited supply of drones and could not possibly protect the entire planet from attacks. If Atlantis was still sitting in San Francisco, do you think countries like Britain and France who are on the opposite side of the planet would just sit back as they get pounded?

morbosfist
October 5th, 2010, 09:57 PM
The Alliance has no way to prevent Earth from using the Stargate. If they brought another one, they'd have to stay in orbit and they'd be caught. They can't steal it, because Earth has beaming jammers.

GateroomGuard
October 5th, 2010, 09:59 PM
Do you really know that for sure though? I'd bet could eventually win like the Wraith did with Atlantis but it would just take a significant amount of time and losses. Even if we assumed Earth had enough resources stockpiled to bring our fleet up to a dozen 304's the Lucian Alliance could easily prevent us from using the stargate to build more ships or even repair our existing ships. So we'd have to spread out our fleet between defending Earth, attacking the Alliance and defending our offworld facilities if we are to have any hope of getting more resources. Eventually, we'd be stuck with just Atlantis which has a limited supply of drones and could not possibly protect the entire planet from attacks. If Atlantis was still sitting in San Francisco, do you think countries like Britain and France who are on the opposite side of the planet would just sit back as they get pounded?

We have the Jaffa and other allies. If Earth was fully brought into the war I'm pretty sure the Jaffa would have our backs until we could fully mobilize. The Lucian Alliance aren't the massive superpower of the galaxy, their only one group in a galaxy of many factions. The war so far has just been skirmishes and minor engagements. The Lucian Alliance have never been involved in any protracted battle or war. We have no places to defend but Earth basically. If the LA launched a full attack every 304 would be pulled back to Earth, the Jaffa would likely send a fleet as well to help. The LA are not in a position to win a battle to destroy Earth. If we need more supplies I'm sure our other allies and the Jaffa would be fine with shipping the materials to Earth. Ultimately the LA are raiders, they use hit and run attacks, or terrorist tactics. They aren't System Lords who would gather a huge armada and go after Earth.

Cold Fuzz
October 5th, 2010, 10:53 PM
Ultimately the LA are raiders, they use hit and run attacks, or terrorist tactics. They aren't System Lords who would gather a huge armada and go after Earth.

Exactly what I was thinking. A frontal assault doesn't seem to be their style. With this rather effective operation against the Destiny crew, they'll probably plan another big hit against Cheyenne Mountain, Atlantis, the Alpha Site, and other Earth holdings in the Milky Way. If the writers were trying to imitate real-world political situations, they've certainly got the potential to do it with the Lucian Alliance.

Inquisitor
October 6th, 2010, 01:56 AM
Unless Earth can't detect cloaked ships, the Lucian Alliance would clearly win the war. Earth is only Earth. One planet. Everyone could easily be killed by detonating a large weapon on the supervolcanoes, wiping out all civilisation.

The plan Arkad (or however it's spelt, Teal'c's enemy) had would have worked if he pulled it off. But with the Asgard technology it's probable earth can detect goa'uld cloaked ships.

knowles2
October 6th, 2010, 02:20 AM
They may only hit an run attacks now, but the Lucian leader daughter just been killed, I would not be surprise if he been pissed an launch a full scale assault on earth when learns of that.

The only Jaffa I count on are Teal'c an Bra'tac an while they are capable of bringing in a Jaffa fleet I doubt it would be more than a few ships. The Jaffa nation council is not exactly pro earth.

Earth be more reliant of Puddle jumpers which are a match for a single Ha'tak after all an 304s, let hope they got a more those lying around. An Atlantis would be held in reserve, but from the pounding it took defending earth from the super hive I doubt it even operational let alone ready for combat. An we do not know whether there are any drones left.

escyos
October 6th, 2010, 02:22 AM
We live in the Milky War galaxy?

Eternal Density
October 6th, 2010, 03:10 AM
We live in the Milky War galaxy?This explains much.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 6th, 2010, 03:52 AM
GG,


Less so than a full scale Hatak and deathglider assualt on Earth. If the LA go the bomb route Earth still can pull a cover story, if they full scale invade then all of Earth will mobilize. Rather than having just 4-5 304s Earth will start churning them out 3-4 a week.

How? I imagine building a 304 is not like welding together a liberty ship. The training for construction is likely to be highly technical and thus it wouldn't be easy to bring spaceyard crews up to speed. That will create an initial backlog giving the LA time to mount a numbers heavy assault. Once large numbers of construction crews are trained and assuming we have the resources to mass produce 304s, then (perhaps), Earth could churn out 3-4 a week. How long the lead up period to train constuction crews is a really good question.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 6th, 2010, 03:56 AM
GG,


If the Lucian Alliance launched a full scale invasion then all they would do is wake up a massive giant and fill him with an incredible rage. If Earth threw all it's manpower and resources into a galactic war the Lucian Alliance would be wiped out. Which the Lucian Alliance probably knows so they wouldn't want to unleash that force upon them. Either they destroy the earth with a few hundred naquadriah bombs or they leave the actual planet Earth alone, it's the only intelligent choice they can make.

Let me quote Stalin for the third time on this board. "Quantity has a quality all it's own." Earth can't match the LA's numbers, yet. It would be a slugfest, at best. This is also assuming the LA has not gained some tech allowing them to go toe to toe with the 304s.

The Destiny
October 6th, 2010, 05:29 AM
Well, 2 sots from an asgard beam prety much destroys a hive ship. Ha'taks ought to be 1 shot kils. En a single shot from a puddle jumper has been know to destroy one, let alone Atlantis firing all of it's drones and giving us a repeat of "the lost city". 30's can destroy ori ships. How credible do you think it is ships gain the technology to get to that level?

Also, it's been a year since EatG so te ships ougt to be repaired or finished by now.

Unless the LA number in a ew hundred ha'taks I'm sure it'll be a pure slaughter.

Hermiod
October 6th, 2010, 05:31 AM
we at least 5 304's 4 of them have Asgard beam weapons. plus Atlantis is on earth drones and puddle jumpers. plus jaffa nation support.

the leather alliance doesn't stand a chance.

Funny, if I remember SG-1's exploits against the Goa'uld correctly, superior technology doesn't always mean victory.

General Jumper One
October 6th, 2010, 05:32 AM
Advanced weapons suddenly lose their advantage when your enemy has more numbers

I doubt the LA have more numbers than the Free Jaffa Nation and don't forget we have the Tok'Ra on our side as well

Spimman
October 6th, 2010, 05:36 AM
Sounds like a cool subplot, but I hope it doesn't distract from Destiny and start having more Earth/Stone based stories again...I want Destiny to be the focus...not Earth.

That being said, seeing as 99% + of Earth has no idea about the SG program or alien tech it is an optimal time to attack.

The Mighty 6 platoon
October 6th, 2010, 05:46 AM
Well, 2 sots from an asgard beam prety much destroys a hive ship. Ha'taks ought to be 1 shot kils. En a single shot from a puddle jumper has been know to destroy one, let alone Atlantis firing all of it's drones and giving us a repeat of "the lost city". 30's can destroy ori ships. How credible do you think it is ships gain the technology to get to that level?

Also, it's been a year since EatG so te ships ougt to be repaired or finished by now.

Unless the LA number in a ew hundred ha'taks I'm sure it'll be a pure slaughter.

You say that like every war is a straight up fight. The reality is very different. As we speak 30,000 to 40,000 men armed with outdated soviet weapons from the 70’s are holding down several hundred thousand of the best armed and trained men in the world. Yes in a stand up fight we’d win, but the Taliban don’t allow that to happen. Any war with the Lucian Alliance would therefore probably be a guerrilla war, the LA would execute raids, used cloaked cargo ships to place bombs on earth or ambush ships like in Company of Thieves. In such a situation trying to fix the enemy in place for any length of time becomes very difficult and it is then often very hard to bring overwhelming force against them.

Orion475
October 6th, 2010, 07:33 AM
Any possible way Stargate: Revolution in its conception had to do with the Lucian Alliance or the Ninth Chevron

Shai Hulud
October 6th, 2010, 07:38 AM
The red car vs the blue car!

Vanek26
October 6th, 2010, 07:57 AM
We live in the Milky War galaxy?

oh wow. I suck. Can I change that? It was late...

Kaiphantom
October 6th, 2010, 08:13 AM
An LA war with Earth reeks of bad writing. The LA is a group of thugs, and fighting a major power is the LAST thing they would do. If anything, they'd avoid Earth where they can, because they know Earth can't control the galaxy. We have 5 ships now? Maybe 6? We can't cover the entire galaxy. If anything, the LA would hit outposts and mining operations like Icarus base. Stuff more lightly defended where they can snatch goods and then retreat.

Also, there is no way the LA can match the tech Earth has now. I don't buy JM's explanation about those shields, where he said "you're assuming no else had advanced their tech as well." The LA are street thugs, and gangs don't have the brains to significantly upgrade their tech... at least not enough to withstand Asgard Beam weapons that tore through Ori shields. So we'd have to believe street gangs upgraded their shields to be stronger than Ori shields. So I'm of the opinion the Hammond didn't have Asgard Beam weapons installed or ready yet.

And even discounting that, the Hammed seemed to be quite fine lasting under the combined firepower of at least three Goa'uld motherships. Against 4 or 5 ships and Atlantis? The LA would never mass the amount of numbers to overcome that; they aren't the wraith.

So no, the LA isn't going to stage an attack against Earth. If anything, it would be leaked intel designed to keep Earth's forces close to Earth... instead of out in the galaxy protecting more juicy targets. There is no money involved in attacking Earth, and that's all thugs care about.

If they do attack, then the writers better come up with a damn good reason between then and now.

Shai Hulud
October 6th, 2010, 08:23 AM
The LA appear to be 'a group of thugs' who have the capability to infiltrate SGC with a mole, the resources to mount an expedition to the destination at the end of the 9th Chevron, have access to advanced technology and starships and are capable of locating and surveying naquadriah enriched planets to provide the power to dial Destiny. Castigating them as purely 'street thugs' seems a tad pointless. JM & the rest of the SG producers / writers have put the LA into place as main antagonists in the Milky Way now that the Go'auld have been dealt with, is that so hard to come to terms with?

knowles2
October 6th, 2010, 08:31 AM
Actually it makes a lot of sense attacking an destroying Earth. We are the only organise power in the Galaxy that have the resources an power to take on the Lucian alliance, The Tok'ra are a dieing race an the Jaffa nation last time we saw them were to busy fighting amoungst themselves to fight the Lucian alliance. Taking out Earth would enable them secure there position in the Galaxy as the most organise group there is an the most powerful, after all they most likely capture an obtain at least some earth/Asgard technology from us.
Thugs an criminals or not the few words we have heard from them in SGU seem to suggest that they now have a greater plan an vision for there organisation. It has also been reveal that they may be a far older organisation than we knew before, ginger hair girl said they have been harassing her family for 15 years . Which means that they were able to operate under the system lords who had far more power an control than Earth does.

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
October 6th, 2010, 08:31 AM
Funny, if I remember SG-1's exploits against the Goa'uld correctly, superior technology doesn't always mean victory.

Good point. I mean we were outmanned and outgunned but sg-1 came out on top

The Mighty 6 platoon
October 6th, 2010, 08:37 AM
An LA war with Earth reeks of bad writing. The LA is a group of thugs, and fighting a major power is the LAST thing they would do. If anything, they'd avoid Earth where they can, because they know Earth can't control the galaxy. We have 5 ships now? Maybe 6? We can't cover the entire galaxy. If anything, the LA would hit outposts and mining operations like Icarus base. Stuff more lightly defended where they can snatch goods and then retreat.

Also, there is no way the LA can match the tech Earth has now. I don't buy JM's explanation about those shields, where he said "you're assuming no else had advanced their tech as well." The LA are street thugs, and gangs don't have the brains to significantly upgrade their tech... at least not enough to withstand Asgard Beam weapons that tore through Ori shields. So we'd have to believe street gangs upgraded their shields to be stronger than Ori shields. So I'm of the opinion the Hammond didn't have Asgard Beam weapons installed or ready yet.

And even discounting that, the Hammed seemed to be quite fine lasting under the combined firepower of at least three Goa'uld motherships. Against 4 or 5 ships and Atlantis? The LA would never mass the amount of numbers to overcome that; they aren't the wraith.

So no, the LA isn't going to stage an attack against Earth. If anything, it would be leaked intel designed to keep Earth's forces close to Earth... instead of out in the galaxy protecting more juicy targets. There is no money involved in attacking Earth, and that's all thugs care about.

If they do attack, then the writers better come up with a damn good reason between then and now.

Yeah because it’s not like there is a real world comparison is there? I mean there aren’t any backward tribal warlords, heavily involved in drug dealing, fighting superpowers in the world are there? Oh wait a second...

And frankly from a military point of view an attack on earth makes perfect sense. The LA have a method of inserting bombs or strike teams undetected on earth, and an a attack on earth could destroy any facilities to build any more ships but also the facilities to repair the 304’s. After that let attrition take its toll. Add an attack on the SGC and Homeworld Command, and you leave Earth’s force disorganised and less able to project power throughout the galaxy.

leiasky
October 6th, 2010, 10:06 AM
Wouldn't surprise me if that little comment was thrown into SGU as continuity for when they get to the SG1 movie. My guess is that is what the SG1 movie will be about - the Lucian Alliance throwing everything they've got at Earth.

FallenAngelII
October 6th, 2010, 11:42 AM
The Lucian Alliance does not, as far as we know, utilize cloning to clone new soldiers. Also, the Lucian Alliance is in no way as numerous as the Wraith were during their great war against the Ancients. Their Ha'tak supply is also limited, especially when they can't even dent Asgard-shielded 304's.

They would need to outnumber our ships 10 to 1 or so to stand even the sliver of a chance seeing as how the Asgard beams tear through Ha'taks like butter and even then it would be a war of attrition (our ships would need to take on heavy fire for a prolonged period of time despite being more mobile than Ha'taks).

leiasky
October 6th, 2010, 11:50 AM
The Lucian Alliance does not, as far as we know, utilize cloning to clone new soldiers. Also, the Lucian Alliance is in no way as numerous as the Wraith were during their great war against the Ancients. Their Ha'tak supply is also limited, especially when they can't even dent Asgard-shielded 304's.

They would need to outnumber our ships 10 to 1 or so to stand even the sliver of a chance seeing as how the Asgard beams tear through Ha'taks like butter and even then it would be a war of attrition (our ships would need to take on heavy fire for a prolonged period of time despite being more mobile than Ha'taks).

Yet a few Lucian Alliance ships made a good dent in The Hammond in SGU's 'Air'.

Not believable if what you say above is true but - it didn't prevent them from doing it to launch SGU.

Ashizuri
October 6th, 2010, 11:52 AM
Wouldn't surprise me if that little comment was thrown into SGU as continuity for when they get to the SG1 movie. My guess is that is what the SG1 movie will be about - the Lucian Alliance throwing everything they've got at Earth.

That was was first thought as well.

Ok, it was my second thought, my first thought was "don't worry Wray, Jack has that covered."

kymeric
October 6th, 2010, 12:03 PM
You are forgetting they had a Colonel feeding them information and specs on Earther technology. Even if the LA has mediocre engineers they should be on an even footing with Earth. Transporters, sheilds, intergalactic hyperdrives and slow beams of doom.

Is anyone really gonna argue that Telford didnt put the specs for everything on a thumb drive and hand it over to the alliance? I mean for bleeps sake they had earth computers and all of the Icarus technology except rushes formula... and that was the highest top secret project ever!

The LA is clearly an even match technologically for Earth.

morbosfist
October 6th, 2010, 12:20 PM
The LA is no match for Earth. Telford does not have access to that kind of technical data. Those are top-secret blueprints that they would under no circumstances just hand out. Telford would get exposed in a second if he tried to steal anything outside of his office.

The Mighty 6 platoon
October 6th, 2010, 01:06 PM
The Lucian Alliance does not, as far as we know, utilize cloning to clone new soldiers. Also, the Lucian Alliance is in no way as numerous as the Wraith were during their great war against the Ancients. Their Ha'tak supply is also limited, especially when they can't even dent Asgard-shielded 304's.

They would need to outnumber our ships 10 to 1 or so to stand even the sliver of a chance seeing as how the Asgard beams tear through Ha'taks like butter and even then it would be a war of attrition (our ships would need to take on heavy fire for a prolonged period of time despite being more mobile than Ha'taks).

Why is cloning the only way for an enemy to have a numerical edge? The LA could be active on scores if not hundreds of worlds, anywhere the Goa’uld held control, which was most of the galaxy. And why would there Ha’tak supply be limited? Since the LA own large amounts of former Goa’uld territory it’s not exactly a reach to assume they have also control some of the Goa’uld ship building worlds.

Even if they don’t have a numerical edge, it’s still quite possible to conduct a guerrilla war when outnumbered. There are currently around 340,000 military and police forces in Afghanistan, who are needed to fight a force of only around 35,000 Taliban. In Northern Island the IRA had only a few thousand members active at one time, and it required tens of thousands of British soldiers to keep the peace.

You seem to have a very symmetrical view of warfare, something that in reality leads nowhere but stalemate. The LA have plenty of methods to attack Earth. They have plenty of cargo ships to bring strike teams and bombs to earth. Raiding on Earth’s bases would be very easy as well, Earth’s forces are very limited and can’t be there at once. Further the LA have already shown in Company of Thieves back in SG1 a skill in ambushes, they already disabled the Odyssey once, they have a knack for it.

PG15
October 6th, 2010, 01:14 PM
If the LA really wanted to destroy Earth, then the ease with which they can do so is almost laughable.

I mean, it's as easy as dialing a Stargate to a blackhole and then tossing it into the sun, then wait for the fireworks.

Or, failing that, just park a few dozen cloaked cargoships in a few dozen major cities on Earth, fill them with naquadah, and then blow them up. This won't destroy Earth of course, but it would successfully remove a good bit of its human population.

Really, Earth is hugely under-defended to any enemy with more than 2 brain cells to rub together, and it will continue to be thus unless it had a planetary shield or something. A few ships and an Ancient city is nothing if they have a limited sphere of influence. Now, speaking of that Ancient city, if it has enough power to extend its shield across the planet (as we know it could), then it's a different story.

But not if the LA supernovas the sun.

morbosfist
October 6th, 2010, 01:29 PM
Causing a sun to go supernova is rather out of the box thinking. I don't think it would occur to the Alliance, since they presumably haven't dialled to a black hole themselves.

PG15
October 6th, 2010, 01:31 PM
Unless they knew about what Carter did all those years ago.

Depending on what Telford has told them, they could have the entire SG1 handbook for all we know.

Shai Hulud
October 6th, 2010, 01:32 PM
Massin, Kiva's Daddy is not going to take kindly to the news that his daughter has been killed by the Destinites. Id say a bit of vengance is in order and vengance is something the LA are very good at.

morbosfist
October 6th, 2010, 01:34 PM
Unless they knew about what Carter did all those years ago.

Depending on what Telford has told them, they could have the entire SG1 handbook for all we know.I doubt requisitioning all of Stargate Command's files would go down well. He could probably get away with mission logs, which would cover it, but there wouldn't be any reason to. Kiva had him funnel information on Destiny.


Massin, Kiva's Daddy is not going to take kindly to the news that his daughter has been killed by the Destinites. Id say a bit of vengance is in order and vengance is something the LA are very good at.How's he supposed to know? He doesn't have a spy anymore.

Shai Hulud
October 6th, 2010, 01:40 PM
How's he supposed to know? He doesn't have a spy anymore.

They managed to get one spy into SGC whats to say they dont have another? Or perhaps they were monitoring the planet which the LA dialled from and which exploded just when Earth forces turn up and begin bombarding the planet?

morbosfist
October 6th, 2010, 01:44 PM
Assuming she's dead from the exploding planet is viable. Another spy would be harder to do. Telford was in a unique position.

Shai Hulud
October 6th, 2010, 01:47 PM
Telford was in a unique position.

Really? And you know this how?

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 6th, 2010, 01:50 PM
Morbo,


The LA is no match for Earth. Telford does not have access to that kind of technical data. Those are top-secret blueprints that they would under no circumstances just hand out. Telford would get exposed in a second if he tried to steal anything outside of his office.

Upon what do you base that conclusion?

PG15
October 6th, 2010, 01:54 PM
I doubt requisitioning all of Stargate Command's files would go down well. He could probably get away with mission logs, which would cover it, but there wouldn't be any reason to. Kiva had him funnel information on Destiny.

You're right, they probably don't have everything. However, if the LA were planning an attack on Earth, then any mole planted in the SGC/Homeworld Security would be instructed to get as much info about Earth and Earth personnel as possible.

And even if the mole can't get anything at all, Carter blowing up a sun to wipe out Apophis's fleet should be common knowledge by now; it was a pretty big deal at the time.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 6th, 2010, 01:55 PM
morbo,


Causing a sun to go supernova is rather out of the box thinking. I don't think it would occur to the Alliance, since they presumably haven't dialled to a black hole themselves.

Always overestimate your enemy. Then you are rarely suprised.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 6th, 2010, 01:59 PM
SH,


Massin, Kiva's Daddy is not going to take kindly to the news that his daughter has been killed by the Destinites. Id say a bit of vengance is in order and vengance is something the LA are very good at.

How's he going to find out Kiva was killed?

Shai Hulud
October 6th, 2010, 02:03 PM
SH,



How's he going to find out Kiva was killed?

Already answered that, read the thread.

Lant3an
October 6th, 2010, 02:08 PM
maybe the whole attack on earth thing is just a plot for the next sg1 movie :D:D
we need to stay optimistic :)

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 6th, 2010, 02:16 PM
SH,


Already answered that, read the thread.

I assume you mean this quote:


They managed to get one spy into SGC whats to say they dont have another? Or perhaps they were monitoring the planet which the LA dialled from and which exploded just when Earth forces turn up and begin bombarding the planet?

If she died on Icarus II then it wasn't the people on Destiny who killed her. He may be pissed at Earth but he doesn't know whether she made it to Destiny.

Shai Hulud
October 6th, 2010, 02:18 PM
If she died on Icarus II then it wasn't the people on Destiny who killed her. He may be pissed at Earth but he doesn't know whether she made it to Destiny.

And considering we are talking in this thread about the war between the LA and SGC within the Milky Way, your point is...?

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 6th, 2010, 02:27 PM
SH,


Massin, Kiva's Daddy is not going to take kindly to the news that his daughter has been killed by the Destinites.[emphasis added]

That's my only point. He'll never know the "Destinites" killed his daughter. He might think Earth forces did it so the result will be the same.

General Jumper One
October 6th, 2010, 03:53 PM
SH,



That's my only point. He'll never know the "Destinites" killed his daughter. He might think Earth forces did it so the result will be the same.

or he may never find out at all, who is going to tell him anyway

morbosfist
October 6th, 2010, 04:27 PM
Upon what do you base that conclusion?Simple logic and past precedent. These people are crazy paranoid about alien tech. Look at Area 51. They don't even let people in with the clothes on their backs. All alien research is based there. Similar situation with a 304. All computers are monitored. You couldn't download a thing without someone knowing.

But the simple, undeniable fact is this: if the Lucian Alliance had even an ounce of the tech the humans do, their Ha'taks would be armed with beam weapons, not staff cannons.


Always overestimate your enemy. Then you are rarely suprised."Never underestimate". Overestimation leads to overcomitting your forces and unsound tactical decisions. Assuming your enemy is stronger than you as a matter of course rather than a matter of fact is simply stupid. The simple fact is the Lucian Alliance doesn't operate like the SGC does. They're warlords, thugs, mercenaries, and criminals. They don't go for the scientific solution, they go for brute force or sneak attacks.

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
October 6th, 2010, 05:51 PM
Wouldn't surprise me if that little comment was thrown into SGU as continuity for when they get to the SG1 movie. My guess is that is what the SG1 movie will be about - the Lucian Alliance throwing everything they've got at Earth.

Well revolution defines as 2 a : a sudden, radical, or complete change b : a fundamental change in political organization; especially : the overthrow or renunciation of one government or ruler and the substitution of another by the governed c : activity or movement designed to effect fundamental changes in the socioeconomic situation d : a fundamental change in the way of thinking about or visualizing something : a change of paradigm) so who knows

blackluster
October 6th, 2010, 06:51 PM
Simple logic and past precedent. These people are crazy paranoid about alien tech. Look at Area 51. They don't even let people in with the clothes on their backs. All alien research is based there. Similar situation with a 304. All computers are monitored. You couldn't download a thing without someone knowing.

But the simple, undeniable fact is this: if the Lucian Alliance had even an ounce of the tech the humans do, their Ha'taks would be armed with beam weapons, not staff cannons.
They know enough to render Asgard beaming and sensors ineffective which is more than enough. They could have been doing constant flyovers of area 51 and Earth would never know. If it hadn't been for Earth tracking Telford, they would never even have known the Lucian Alliance had that capability.

morbosfist
October 6th, 2010, 07:04 PM
They know enough to render Asgard beaming and sensors ineffective which is more than enough. They could have been doing constant flyovers of area 51 and Earth would never know. If it hadn't been for Earth tracking Telford, they would never even have known the Lucian Alliance had that capability.One, they cannot render Asgard sensors ineffective. They have cloaked ships and always have. That's nothing new. Two, jamming a signal is not the same as being able to duplicate the techonology. The Wraith managed that trick inside of an hour, and they don't have the same beaming ability. It's not an impressive development. Jamming things is easy if you can detect the signal. They do not act like it's an amazing feat of engineering, so obviously people have learned to counter it.

blackluster
October 6th, 2010, 07:14 PM
One, they cannot render Asgard sensors ineffective. They have cloaked ships and always have. That's nothing new. Two, jamming a signal is not the same as being able to duplicate the techonology. The Wraith managed that trick inside of an hour, and they don't have the same beaming ability. It's not an impressive development. Jamming things is easy if you can detect the signal. They do not act like it's an amazing feat of engineering, so obviously people have learned to counter it.If you can stop something from working, you have rendered it ineffective, it doesn't matter how you did it. Their ability clearly extends beyond a straightforward cloak since even with their exact location, the Hammond was unable to monitor the area and had no beaming capability there. The ability to disrupt the technology shows a level of understanding of it that indicates a level of technological parity that elevates the Lucian Alliance to serious front line threat as two major components of Asgard technology that Earth possesses have been successfully countered.

And jamming a signal is not easy when you can detect it, simplifying it to that degree is frankly ridiculous. You could whip out a spectrum analyzer right now and see a multitude of comm. signals being projected in your area. That in no way makes it easy for you to now go ahead and jam them since various protocols employ a plethora of means to overcome interference even in limited bandwidths. This is even more true in military applications.

morbosfist
October 6th, 2010, 07:40 PM
If you can stop something from working, you have rendered it ineffective, it doesn't matter how you did it. Their ability clearly extends beyond a straightforward cloak since even with their exact location, the Hammond was unable to monitor the area and had no beaming capability there. The ability to disrupt the technology shows a level of understanding of it that indicates a level of technological parity that elevates the Lucian Alliance to serious front line threat as two major components of Asgard technology that Earth possesses have been successfully countered.When are they ever shown to black out sensors? The Hammond couldn't beam anyone out. They could still tell what was going on and knew Daniel was there. Same with the pyramid. They couldn't beam Rush out, but they knew he was in there. Cloaked ships have always been around, so it is not an advantage the Alliance has suddenly gained. It's a technological advantage the Odyssey has, too.


And jamming a signal is not easy when you can detect it, simplifying it to that degree is frankly ridiculous. You could whip out a spectrum analyzer right now and see a multitude of comm. signals being projected in your area. That in no way makes it easy for you to now go ahead and jam them since various protocols employ a plethora of means to overcome interference even in limited bandwidths. This is even more true in military applications.Nevertheless, in this show jamming is easy, because the Wraith did it inside an hour after seeing the technology work about four times or so.

zainea13
October 6th, 2010, 09:24 PM
The LA doesn't know that Kiva was killed on the ship. But they do know that the planet she was on was destroyed. They may even know that Earth vessels were there at the time or just before it. So they would attack Earth for that reason. Blowing up their link to destiny.

garhkal
October 6th, 2010, 11:46 PM
Advanced weapons suddenly lose their advantage when your enemy has more numbers

Yup. See how easily the Hammond got owned in Last man standing, when they were overwhelmed by wraith cruisers.


1 cloaked cargo ship delivers naquadriah bomb in New York City.

Yup. We could not evne prevent them blocking our beaming out of rush when he infiltrated as "Telford". Nor did we even know they had a ship here.


Less so than a full scale Hatak and deathglider assualt on Earth. If the LA go the bomb route Earth still can pull a cover story, if they full scale invade then all of Earth will mobilize. Rather than having just 4-5 304s Earth will start churning them out 3-4 a week.

Heck if i was the LA i would 'cloak it' then put some holo over it of an asteroid. Or better yet, since they KNOW our situation, perhaps they DO go the route of 'exposing' the program.


Which is? Keep in mind the methods used thus far have all been countered.


Lock the gate up wiht continual dialing and power feed into (season 6, and again earlier with sokar), get a ship into orbit with a gate on that dials somewhere else. that program felger made.


The Alliance has no way to prevent Earth from using the Stargate. If they brought another one, they'd have to stay in orbit and they'd be caught. They can't steal it, because Earth has beaming jammers

See above. And if it is cloaked, how would they tell where the ship that has it on IS? Remember an alkesh can be cloaked. And it is large enough imo to house a gate.. Also we did see sokar with a fleet of cloakable hat'aks. Who knows where those ended up.
On the jammer. Whats to stop them doing a wraith on us (like in enemy at the gate) and ramming a ship at supersonic speed into chyan mountain, burying the gate.


The LA are not in a position to win a battle to destroy Earth.

I am sure they know of the 'gate into a sun' to suck off atoms cauing it to go nova. And i doubt even atlantis with 3 ZPM's could shield us from that blast.


The only Jaffa I count on are Teal'c an Bra'tac an while they are capable of bringing in a Jaffa fleet I doubt it would be more than a few ships. The Jaffa nation council is not exactly pro earth.

Plus after the ass whupping the Ori gave them, we don't know how many ships they have left.


Funny, if I remember SG-1's exploits against the Goa'uld correctly, superior technology doesn't always mean victory.


Yip. And i can easily see us getting arrogant like the Gou'ald were in regards to us.. we kicked the ori ass, gouald ass, wraith ass, asuran ass... whats not to be arrogant about.


The LA appear to be 'a group of thugs' who have the capability to infiltrate SGC with a mole, the resources to mount an expedition to the destination at the end of the 9th Chevron, have access to advanced technology and starships and are capable of locating and surveying naquadriah enriched planets to provide the power to dial Destiny.

Well said Shai. They are obviously a lot more organized/powerful/knowledgeable and street savvy than some here give them credit for.


It has also been reveal that they may be a far older organisation than we knew before, ginger hair girl said they have been harassing her family for 15 years . Which means that they were able to operate under the system lords who had far more power an control than Earth does.

Part of me wanted to believe her, part of me though it was 'standard sob story #1013" they were told to use to curry favor if ever caught.


And frankly from a military point of view an attack on earth makes perfect sense. The LA have a method of inserting bombs or strike teams undetected on earth, and an a attack on earth could destroy any facilities to build any more ships but also the facilities to repair the 304’s. After that let attrition take its toll. Add an attack on the SGC and Homeworld Command, and you leave Earth’s force disorganised and less able to project power throughout the galaxy

And who's to say they have not figured out (Via telford) some of our tactics we have used in the past. such as the microjump that oneil/carter did against the superhatak anubis had.. Then they blow up a ship with the LA's equivelant of a nuke on.
Or hows about they land 2-3 ships worth of some bio weapon, and unleash it on some of our planet.. Just the resources we would have to push out to contain that would keep us busy.


The LA is no match for Earth. Telford does not have access to that kind of technical data. Those are top-secret blueprints that they would under no circumstances just hand out. Telford would get exposed in a second if he tried to steal anything outside of his office.

Then how the heck did he get all the info on Iccarus to them?


Or, failing that, just park a few dozen cloaked cargoships in a few dozen major cities on Earth, fill them with naquadah, and then blow them up. This won't destroy Earth of course, but it would successfully remove a good bit of its human population.

Heck just get on the inside of a large fault line to cause mass chaos and destruction/


Unless they knew about what Carter did all those years ago.

Depending on what Telford has told them, they could have the entire SG1 handbook for all we know.

Precicely. Since we did not know how big a threat they were before they took over the oddesy, it is safe IMO to assume they have detailed files on our missions. So what is to stop them taking a page or two out of our own tactics we have used.


But the simple, undeniable fact is this: if the Lucian Alliance had even an ounce of the tech the humans do, their Ha'taks would be armed with beam weapons, not staff cannons.

Well we got ours from the Asgard. Who's to say that even with the tech specs, that the LA could duplicate them.


The Wraith managed that trick inside of an hour, and they don't have the same beaming ability.

To me the wraith had their own version.

morbosfist
October 7th, 2010, 12:06 AM
Yup. See how easily the Hammond got owned in Last man standing, when they were overwhelmed by wraith cruisers.Uh, no. The Phoenix, in that timeline, was owned by three Wraith hive ships who got the drop on it, and Wraith hives are far and away superior to Ha'taks.


Heck if i was the LA i would 'cloak it' then put some holo over it of an asteroid. Or better yet, since they KNOW our situation, perhaps they DO go the route of 'exposing' the program.Goa'uld cloaking devices do no work like that. They can't cloak anything larger than an Alkesh. Apophis did it once with Ha'taks, but that was treated as something very rare and never happens again.


Lock the gate up wiht continual dialing and power feed into (season 6, and again earlier with sokar), get a ship into orbit with a gate on that dials somewhere else. that program felger made.That program Felger made was patched to prevent that kind of tampering, and the Alliance doesn't have it. Constant dialling of the gate would make detecting a cloaked vessel easy. It would be destroyed.


See above. And if it is cloaked, how would they tell where the ship that has it on IS? Remember an alkesh can be cloaked. And it is large enough imo to house a gate.. Also we did see sokar with a fleet of cloakable hat'aks. Who knows where those ended up.That was Apophis that had the Ha'taks, and they were blown up protecting his mothership. Cloaked ships can be detected, albeit with difficultly, and large energy surges such as a Stargate would make doing so that much easier.


On the jammer. Whats to stop them doing a wraith on us (like in enemy at the gate) and ramming a ship at supersonic speed into chyan mountain, burying the gate.The fact that a Goa'uld vessel would break apart in the atmosphere if it tried that, or be blown to scrap before it ever got close.


I am sure they know of the 'gate into a sun' to suck off atoms cauing it to go nova. And i doubt even atlantis with 3 ZPM's could shield us from that blast.How would they? The only people that know it happened are the humans and the Tok'ra, and neither works with the Alliance.


Plus after the ass whupping the Ori gave them, we don't know how many ships they have left.Enough to stand guard over the Tok'ra homeworld while Ba'al was killed.


And who's to say they have not figured out (Via telford) some of our tactics we have used in the past. such as the microjump that oneil/carter did against the superhatak anubis had.. Then they blow up a ship with the LA's equivelant of a nuke on.And who's to say they have, given their utter lack of change from then and now.


Or hows about they land 2-3 ships worth of some bio weapon, and unleash it on some of our planet.. Just the resources we would have to push out to contain that would keep us busy.This is all well and good, except they've never done it before. They haven't even been willing to pick a direct fight until now.


Then how the heck did he get all the info on Iccarus to them?He runs the Icarus project. It's a simple as copying the files on his desk. It's a lot easier to get away with.


Precicely. Since we did not know how big a threat they were before they took over the oddesy, it is safe IMO to assume they have detailed files on our missions. So what is to stop them taking a page or two out of our own tactics we have used.There's no reason to assume they do, and even if they did they can't replicate every tactic.


Well we got ours from the Asgard. Who's to say that even with the tech specs, that the LA could duplicate them.They don't have them, or they'd have built them. Not a difficult conclusion to make. We copied the beam weapons on the Odyssey for every 304 (save maybe the Hammond for now). If they had the designs, it should be within their ability.


To me the wraith had their own version.Except they didn't.

garhkal
October 7th, 2010, 03:59 AM
Uh, no. The Phoenix, in that timeline, was owned by three Wraith hive ships who got the drop on it, and Wraith hives are far and away superior to Ha'taks.

The point still stands. (*thanks for the correction on which ship). It still was overwhelmed by 3 enemy ships.. i think 10 or so hataks could do the same to 1 304..


That program Felger made was patched to prevent that kind of tampering, and the Alliance doesn't have it. Constant dialling of the gate would make detecting a cloaked vessel easy. It would be destroyed.

How would constant diling of a gate on the cloked ship make detection/destruction easy? Heck, dial INTO it and feed energy into it so it stays open..
As to the program, iirc the la already tried to use it later on, in the earlier part of season 10..


The fact that a Goa'uld vessel would break apart in the atmosphere if it tried that, or be blown to scrap before it ever got close.

Do we really know if a gou'ald ship would break up coming in though?


How would they? The only people that know it happened are the humans and the Tok'ra, and neither works with the Alliance.

Well so was info on the Icarus planet, destiny etc.. but look how easy they got THAT info... Ergo having mission reports is not out of the question.


And who's to say they have, given their utter lack of change from then and now.

I do not see them having an utter lack of change. Heck seeing as how they went from a ragtag group in S7-9, to a force to be reconned with (now) i would say they have had some serious changes....


He runs the Icarus project. It's a simple as copying the files on his desk. It's a lot easier to get away with.

Incorrect. Remember YOUNG was in charge of icarus. Telford was supposed to lead the team through the gate...



There's no reason to assume they do, and even if they did they can't replicate every tactic.

And there is little reason to assume they DON"T have them.. espeially with what telford has been able to get them. As to replicating them. Why not?


They don't have them, or they'd have built them. Not a difficult conclusion to make. We copied the beam weapons on the Odyssey for every 304 (save maybe the Hammond for now). If they had the designs, it should be within their ability.

Sorry, but i call BS here.. Just cause you have tech specs on something does NOT give you the capacity to build them. Remember how hard it was for carter to make a naquida reactor from what's her names drawing in early season 2 of sg1..

[QUOTE=morbosfist;11962059]Except they didn't. /quote]

then what do you call them beaming people up into storage units for materialization later on??

Descended
October 7th, 2010, 08:00 AM
And we know how easy it is to cut off a single planet's access to the stargate system...



Keep in mind that one of the 304's is Chinese and it's very likely that the Russians and Chinese are just waiting for the right moment to take power away from the US. If the US were to abuse their advanced technology to beam North Korea's nukes away that would probably even convince Israel and Britain to turn on the US. And the fact is that those aren't the only three countries who are anti-US. Venezuela has military alliances with Cuba, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Honduras and a bunch of other South American countries and even Russia and North Korea is pretty much backed by China so for the US to take unilateral action against them would be very bad (not to mention that it goes against everything that the UN stands for)...

That's when you make an example out of one of them with a Mark IX.

Not to mention they could hook up Merlin's shroud and phase shift the whole planet. No one on Earth would know it happened except for the brief flash of light which could be explained as a gamma ray burst or something. Then Earth just sits back untouchable. With the ZPMs from Atlantis it shouldn't be too difficult if the US power grid was able to do it in the "Road Not Taken" episode.

Kaiphantom
October 7th, 2010, 08:27 AM
The LA appear to be 'a group of thugs' who have the capability to infiltrate SGC with a mole, the resources to mount an expedition to the destination at the end of the 9th Chevron, have access to advanced technology and starships and are capable of locating and surveying naquadriah enriched planets to provide the power to dial Destiny. Castigating them as purely 'street thugs' seems a tad pointless. JM & the rest of the SG producers / writers have put the LA into place as main antagonists in the Milky Way now that the Go'auld have been dealt with, is that so hard to come to terms with?

The only mole they had was capturing Telford who was infiltrating the LA at the time. They discovered him and used the Goa'Uld brainwashing technology. It's interesting that they had to get someone that way, and not capture someone from an outpost. Almost as if they couldn't....

Mounting an expedition to the 9th chevron is a non-starter argument. There's very little you need to prepare for there. Just grab some supplies and go. Oh, there's the whole dialing thing, but they couldn't even get that right and thus needed Rush. If they are tryign to present the LA as a threat, they are failing as far as I'm concerned. The only way they were even successful at Icarus is because Hammond lacked Asgard beam weapons.


Yeah because it’s not like there is a real world comparison is there? I mean there aren’t any backward tribal warlords, heavily involved in drug dealing, fighting superpowers in the world are there? Oh wait a second...

I'm sorry, what would you be referring to? Because nothing comes to mind. Unless you feel somehow Somali warlords and their pirates are somehow a threat to the US. The only reason they are still around is because bombing the crap out of the country or dropping a nuke is because it's not seen as being too nice. If we weren't worried about our image, we could wipe them out. Same with the Taliban. The only reason they are still around, is because we won't nuke the areas of Pakistan where they reside.


And frankly from a military point of view an attack on earth makes perfect sense. The LA have a method of inserting bombs or strike teams undetected on earth, and an a attack on earth could destroy any facilities to build any more ships but also the facilities to repair the 304’s. After that let attrition take its toll. Add an attack on the SGC and Homeworld Command, and you leave Earth’s force disorganised and less able to project power throughout the galaxy.

No, the LA ain't gettin' anywhere near Earth's ship production facilities. And even if they do damage or blow them up, we'll just build new ones with better security. Sure, they can land here and commit some acts of terror, but they know doing that will place them more firmly in the limelight. Put yourself up as too much of a threat, and people stronger than you will come along and knock you down. The LA has facilities for their ships, too, but they wouldn't have as many people skilled at making or repairing ships, which means attrition hurts them far more than us.

Shai Hulud
October 7th, 2010, 08:48 AM
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter it all depends on your perspective.

Replicator Todd
October 7th, 2010, 08:52 AM
I'd love to see something!

Kaiphantom
October 7th, 2010, 08:55 AM
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter it all depends on your perspective.

That wasn't my point. I don't care what you refer to the LA as. Just that their only option for attacking Earth is to blow up less secure facilities to cause terror. There is an extremely low probability of them mounting any sort of effective normal attack, or even getting their "freedom fighters" into more secure facilities like the Pentagon, homeworld security, ship production facilities, etc. Hell, having given designs to Russia, China, the UK, and France, odds are those countries have ship production facilities as well. That means the LA would have to get effective moles to all five countries, work past all the differing cultural, language, and security measures to bring Earth's ship building to a halt.

And that's presuming Earth doesn't have a ship building facility on another planet by now. Hell, we supposedly have a moon base now that we'll hear about eventually.

The LA would need one HELL of an advantage to threaten Earth with an attack. They could have one, I'm just saying the writers need to give me a damn good reason first, because nothing I've seen makes me think they can. They are more feudal that the Goa'uld system lords, and if Apophis tried to attack Earth with his two ships like at the end of Season 1, they'd be toast.

Shai Hulud
October 7th, 2010, 08:57 AM
The only mole they had was capturing Telford who was infiltrating the LA at the time. They discovered him and used the Goa'Uld brainwashing technology. It's interesting that they had to get someone that way, and not capture someone from an outpost. Almost as if they couldn't....

Mounting an expedition to the 9th chevron is a non-starter argument. There's very little you need to prepare for there. Just grab some supplies and go. Oh, there's the whole dialing thing, but they couldn't even get that right and thus needed Rush. If they are tryign to present the LA as a threat, they are failing as far as I'm concerned. The only way they were even successful at Icarus is because Hammond lacked Asgard beam weapons.



I'm sorry, what would you be referring to? Because nothing comes to mind. Unless you feel somehow Somali warlords and their pirates are somehow a threat to the US. The only reason they are still around is because bombing the crap out of the country or dropping a nuke is because it's not seen as being too nice. If we weren't worried about our image, we could wipe them out. Same with the Taliban. The only reason they are still around, is because we won't nuke the areas of Pakistan where they reside.



No, the LA ain't gettin' anywhere near Earth's ship production facilities. And even if they do damage or blow them up, we'll just build new ones with better security. Sure, they can land here and commit some acts of terror, but they know doing that will place them more firmly in the limelight. Put yourself up as too much of a threat, and people stronger than you will come along and knock you down. The LA has facilities for their ships, too, but they wouldn't have as many people skilled at making or repairing ships, which means attrition hurts them far more than us.

How on earth do we know how many spies the LA have on Earth? They managed to get a cloaked ship onto Earth and Kiva's group seemed to have a permanent presence there so why would we assume that Telford is the only spy they have recruited, forced or otherwise?

Same goes for the production facilities for making ships? How do we know that Earth have more / better facilities than the LA? The LA have taken over the Goa'uld space and planets and the Goa'uld had the capability to produce starships, fighters, bombers, etc.

Oh and as for the 'War on Terror' the only reason that you Yanks are still fighting is that war is very profitable for big multinational corporations who sell weapons, armour, security, rebuilding of infrastructure, etc and also it is good for politicians who are funded by aforementioned corporations and can use it to whip up hysteria and votes to get themselves elected and maintain the hegemony they hold. If you think that the war is about making America safe or spreading 'democracy' then your sadly deluded. Nothing to do with the worlds perception of use of nuclear weapons, the Yanks are still the only country in the world to have used a nuclear bomb in a war so id say their reputation as a bunch of triggerhappy cowboys is well and truly set in stone...

morbosfist
October 7th, 2010, 10:57 AM
The point still stands. (*thanks for the correction on which ship). It still was overwhelmed by 3 enemy ships.. i think 10 or so hataks could do the same to 1 304.No, it doesn't stand. The Phoenix was up against a superior enemy force in every sense of the word. Their weapons, hull strength, and overall firepower exceed that of any Ha'tak. It would take at least three times the amount of ships for the Alliance to do the same, and they have never committed such a fleet.


How would constant diling of a gate on the cloked ship make detection/destruction easy? Heck, dial INTO it and feed energy into it so it stays open..
As to the program, iirc the la already tried to use it later on, in the earlier part of season 10..Sure, feed it power. Like that is such an easy thing to do. Get your facts straight here. The only times that ever worked were when Anubis tried to destroy the Stargate, and that took a colossal amount of power. Even the Goa'uld couldn't do it on their own.

And no, the Alliance did not in any way attempt to lock out a Stargate with a virus. I'm not even sure where you pulled that idea from.


Do we really know if a gou'ald ship would break up coming in though?It would need to have its shields up to survive re-entry, and any ship able to get that close would have its shields knocked out before it could even enter the atmosphere.


Well so was info on the Icarus planet, destiny etc.. but look how easy they got THAT info... Ergo having mission reports is not out of the question.Now you're applying double standards. Telford is a spy for them in Icarus. They did not have any spies during the sun destroying incident.


I do not see them having an utter lack of change. Heck seeing as how they went from a ragtag group in S7-9, to a force to be reconned with (now) i would say they have had some serious changes....They haven't changed. They weren't a ragtag group to start with. They were what they are now: opportunistic thugs. The only change from then to now is the fact that they have a spy.


Incorrect. Remember YOUNG was in charge of icarus. Telford was supposed to lead the team through the gate...A trivial distinction. Telford still has access to the materials on that base as a matter of course. He does not have access beyond that, not without having to draw attention to himself through requisition orders.


And there is little reason to assume they DON"T have them.. espeially with what telford has been able to get them. As to replicating them. Why not?Telford has only been able to information on Icarus as far as we know. They can't replicate our tactics because they don't have the same resources. They don't have every gate address, nor many of the technologies we employ.


Sorry, but i call BS here.. Just cause you have tech specs on something does NOT give you the capacity to build them. Remember how hard it was for carter to make a naquida reactor from what's her names drawing in early season 2 of sg1..Then you're simply not paying attention. Hard? Carter built a working naquadah reactor from the specs within the same episode. We have, canonically, replicated every upgrade done to the Odyssey for our fleet of 304s. There's no arguing this fact. It's been done, period. Unless the Lucian Alliance is incompetent, they'd have done the same by now.


then what do you call them beaming people up into storage units for materialization later on??I call it the functional equivalent of a ring transporter. It is not the same as site to site transportation technology.

Womble
October 7th, 2010, 12:02 PM
Earth is not that powerful. 5-6 304s, a bunch of fighters and Atlantis plus Earth' own armies are a serious force, yes- but the Lucian Alliance seems to have a lot of ships and easy access to naquadah. If they were willing to take casualties and smart enough to focus on getting past the defenses in a hurry and maximizing damage to Earth, they could still inflict massive civilian losses. Can Earth live with that?

More interestingly, what would happen to the Earth society in the Stargate program's cover was blown in such brutal way as naquadah bombs being dropped on major metropolitan areas? Would it collapse into anarchy? Would it consolidate into a single planet-wide authoritarian regime governing through harsh emergency rules? Not a pretty outcome either way.

morbosfist
October 7th, 2010, 12:40 PM
It's not really a victory for the Lucian Alliance if we destroy them in retaliation, which would happen. They can't go toe to toe with our fleet.

Womble
October 7th, 2010, 12:57 PM
It's not really a victory for the Lucian Alliance if we destroy them in retaliation, which would happen. They can't go toe to toe with our fleet.
But Earth can't really destroy the Alliance with 5-6 ships. There are 200 to 400 billion stars in the Milky Way. Even if only 1% of them have habitable planets, it's still an awful lot of planets scattered around 100 000 light years of space. You can't police that with six ships, or even with sixty. Alliance bases can remain undiscovered forever and then some. They may lose much of their spaceship fleet in this kind of attack, but the fleet can be built a new. If they manage to take Earth out of business, it may be worth it in the Alliance's cost vs. benefit equation.

PG15
October 7th, 2010, 12:59 PM
That's when you make an example out of one of them with a Mark IX.

Mark 9's devastate entire planets.


It's not really a victory for the Lucian Alliance if we destroy them in retaliation, which would happen. They can't go toe to toe with our fleet.

Would it though?

Let's say Earth is majorly devastated by LA sneak attacks (i.e. landing naquadah-filled cargo ships across the world and blowing them up), and we launch all but one of our ships - leaving one at Earth to prevent further attacks - to destroy everything LA in the Milky Way. How long do you think that will take?

Will the fleet have to split up into individual ships?

Furthermore, would we even try such a thing as it's nothing more than revenge and wasting valuable resources (unless our goal is not to destroy the LA but to cease their resources)?

I don't think it's that easy. Seems to me that the Asgard beam is really easy to take down if we're caught in a surprise attack, and after that it's just a matter of wearing down the shields; if the LA can command a large enough Hatak fleet against one of our ships and manage to take down the Asgard beam early enough, they could win.

SciFiRick
October 7th, 2010, 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by garhkal
Heck if i was the LA i would 'cloak it' then put some holo over it of an asteroid. Or better yet, since they KNOW our situation, perhaps they DO go the route of 'exposing' the program.
Goa'uld cloaking devices do no work like that. They can't cloak anything larger than an Alkesh. Apophis did it once with Ha'taks, but that was treated as something very rare and never happens again.

To expand on this further and IF Atlantis is still on Earth: The sensors on Atlantis is very powerful. Remember, they knew the Wraith were coming two weeks ahead of time and that was using one ZPM. If the Luciene Alliance was coming to Earth in force with the big ships (no cloaking ability) they would be detected. If they did have cloaking abilities I would think that they wouldn't cloak the ships until they had gotten closer to Earth. That IS assuming that the LA doesn't know about Atlantis or if they do know about Atlantis, they wouldn't necessarily know it's capabilities. The small ship that the LA used to transport Rush back to IcarusII is another matter.

morbosfist
October 7th, 2010, 01:46 PM
But Earth can't really destroy the Alliance with 5-6 ships. There are 200 to 400 billion stars in the Milky Way. Even if only 1% of them have habitable planets, it's still an awful lot of planets scattered around 100 000 light years of space. You can't police that with six ships, or even with sixty. Alliance bases can remain undiscovered forever and then some. They may lose much of their spaceship fleet in this kind of attack, but the fleet can be built a new. If they manage to take Earth out of business, it may be worth it in the Alliance's cost vs. benefit equation.Scale isn't an issue. We know how the Alliance is set up. We know their outposts, their trade routes, major centers of production, most of their leaders and organization structure. If they attacked Earth, those placed would be leveled. Earth would retaliate, because when your enemy has proved they can and are willing to attack you, you do your best to put them out of commission. The only reason the Alliance isn't gone already is because Earth hasn't decided to do it. If Earth really wanted to do a first strike, the Alliance would be on the defensive in short order.


Would it though?

Let's say Earth is majorly devastated by LA sneak attacks (i.e. landing naquadah-filled cargo ships across the world and blowing them up), and we launch all but one of our ships - leaving one at Earth to prevent further attacks - to destroy everything LA in the Milky Way. How long do you think that will take?

Will the fleet have to split up into individual ships?

Furthermore, would we even try such a thing as it's nothing more than revenge and wasting valuable resources (unless our goal is not to destroy the LA but to cease their resources)?

I don't think it's that easy. Seems to me that the Asgard beam is really easy to take down if we're caught in a surprise attack, and after that it's just a matter of wearing down the shields; if the LA can command a large enough Hatak fleet against one of our ships and manage to take down the Asgard beam early enough, they could win.See above for the how. To the issue of ship to ship, surprise only works if you know when and where the enemy is coming, and as proved by the Phoenix in the alternate timeline, you'd need to box in the ship to keep it from just jumping away to recover. When it comes down to it, the Hammond in SGU really wasn't in much danger at the time. It could have kept going. Hell, George Hammond felt that the Prometheus could take at least one Anubis Ha'tak (I forget the exact numbers, but at least one), and that ship was far inferior to a 304.

PG15
October 7th, 2010, 02:05 PM
Scale isn't an issue. We know how the Alliance is set up. We know their outposts, their trade routes, major centers of production, most of their leaders and organization structure.

Do we? All of them?

On a side note, I always wonder how the Earth characters find out these things.




See above for the how. To the issue of ship to ship, surprise only works if you know when and where the enemy is coming, and as proved by the Phoenix in the alternate timeline, you'd need to box in the ship to keep it from just jumping away to recover. When it comes down to it, the Hammond in SGU really wasn't in much danger at the time. It could have kept going. Hell, George Hammond felt that the Prometheus could take at least one Anubis Ha'tak (I forget the exact numbers, but at least one), and that ship was far inferior to a 304.

If the existence of the LA is in danger, I would think they'd use every ship they have to destroy ours, and that's a lot more than three, I think. They would have plenty to box in our ships, considering that they've ceased a lot of Goa'uld hardware.

Oh, and something else I've thought of: there are LA people who's good at engineering. Remember Vala's monk friend? Traders rely on their smarts to survive; if one of them can come up with a few gadgets to take out their enemies, how do you know others can't?

What if all of, say, Daedalus's systems were temporarily wiped out by one of those energy pulses? It's done then, isn't it?

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 7th, 2010, 02:14 PM
Morbos,


It's not really a victory for the Lucian Alliance if we destroy them in retaliation, which would happen. They can't go toe to toe with our fleet.

And we can find all their forces if they go to ground? And to back up PG15 we know everything there is to know about the LA? That being the case how were they able to pull off the sneak attack at Icarus? How were they able to find another Icarus planet and build a facility for contacting Destiny without our knowledge? It seems to me the LA may have assets and factilities Earth knows nothing about. Assuming otherwise would be foolish at best.

morbosfist
October 7th, 2010, 02:29 PM
Do we? All of them?

On a side note, I always wonder how the Earth characters find out these things.Spies like Telford, one would assume, only better at their jobs.


If the existence of the LA is in danger, I would think they'd use every ship they have to destroy ours, and that's a lot more than three, I think. They would have plenty to box in our ships, considering that they've seized a lot of Goa'uld hardware.Given that they've only committed, at most, three Ha'tak vessels to any one engagement, they simply cannot be that well stocked on the big guns. But I'll concede that they may simply be stingy in how they deploy.


Oh, and something else I've thought of: there are LA people who's good at engineering. Remember Vala's monk friend? Traders rely on their smarts to survive; if one of them can come up with a few gadgets to take out their enemies, how do you know others can't?

What if all of, say, Daedalus's systems were temporarily wiped out by one of those energy pulses? It's done then, isn't it?Vala's monk friend didn't work for the Alliance. They had to steal his ship from the Alliance. But fair point. One big problem, though. That weapon had the huge drawback of disabling the ship for almost a minute as it charged, and it was short range. 304s aren't going to be aiming to board like the Alkesh were, and it might not work on larger vessels.


And we can find all their forces if they go to ground? And to back up PG15 we know everything there is to know about the LA? That being the case how were they able to pull off the sneak attack at Icarus? How were they able to find another Icarus planet and build a facility for contacting Destiny without our knowledge? It seems to me the LA may have assets and factilities Earth knows nothing about. Assuming otherwise would be foolish at best.Even if we don't know everything, we know enough to cripple them. The big dogs can't hide their activities as easily. Cut off the head, and those that remain will be disorganized.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 7th, 2010, 02:31 PM
Morbo,


Even if we don't know everything, we know enough to cripple them. The big dogs can't hide their activities as easily. Cut off the head, and those that remain will be disorganized.

Which is why we went out and crippled the LA after they destroyed the important Earth base at the first Icarus planet?

morbosfist
October 7th, 2010, 04:29 PM
That's an outpost, not Earth itself. And Earth has been ruining their operations for quite a while now. If it comes down to an attack on Earth, Earth would hit back. The only reason they haven't is because Earth isn't in the habit of going out and destroying an entire organization directly.

Shan Bruce Lee
October 7th, 2010, 04:34 PM
Advanced weapons suddenly lose their advantage when your enemy has more numbers

Nu uh, otherwise the Wraith would've outlasted the... oh.

Shan Bruce Lee
October 7th, 2010, 04:35 PM
I kinda hated them mentioning that because it just made me want an SG-1 movie we're probably not gonna get.

nx01a
October 7th, 2010, 04:44 PM
I want to see more space battles!

Having said that... I've never taken the Lucian Alliance seriously. If they were to devastate Earth AND reveal the existence of aliens and the stargates to the general Terran population, they'll do what no other enemy in Stargate has been able to do. It would certainly make them less of a joke to me. What I DO like about them is that they're not aliens, they're baseline humans. That makes them all the more dangerous and the one enemy that might actually succeed in doing Earth some serious damage. Now, where was I? Oh, yes.

I want to see more space battles! Maybe the LA have designed a new class of ships better able to stand up to the Daedalus class ships! Those Ha'taks are getting kinda old. Oh, for more space battles!

Eternal Density
October 7th, 2010, 04:56 PM
But what if the Leather Alliance find the next Ancient Super-Wepon (www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSrpoPCRuP) before we do?

nx01a
October 7th, 2010, 05:12 PM
That would certainly be interesting. 'Interesting' as in 'bad for Earth'.

Descended
October 7th, 2010, 05:23 PM
People seem to think that the Lucian Alliance (who are human) are some huge massive organization that has an incredibly large population to draw on just because it controls multiple planets. However, you have to remember that most MW planets have very small populations of humans (brought there by Goa'ulds to serve them) - Earth has by far to largest population of humans in the galaxy as evidenced by the comments of the System Lords when they came to Earth in SG:Continuum and were shocked that humans were allowed "to breed to those numbers"

Most LA planets probably only have a couple hundred thousand people at most, so in a prolonged war that revealed the Stargate program and brought Earth together to fight an outside threat production power and soldiers would shift to the Tauri rather quickly, especially when combined with the Free Jaffa allies.

Kaiphantom
October 7th, 2010, 06:05 PM
How on earth do we know how many spies the LA have on Earth? They managed to get a cloaked ship onto Earth and Kiva's group seemed to have a permanent presence there so why would we assume that Telford is the only spy they have recruited, forced or otherwise?

Because we don't have evidence for any other moles? I'll retract the point when or if we learn about any other LA moles in the SGC, but they seemed to have all their eggs in one basket in the form of Telford. If they had more than him, than they wouldn't have minded losing him.


Same goes for the production facilities for making ships? How do we know that Earth have more / better facilities than the LA? The LA have taken over the Goa'uld space and planets and the Goa'uld had the capability to produce starships, fighters, bombers, etc.

The mafia wasn't exactly known for it's ability to churn out large numbers of tanks. The LA is much like the mafia, or yakuza. They may have taken over facilities, but considering the goa'uld didn't exactly entrust much knowledge to their human slaves, the LA wouldn't have too many people capable of creating new shipyards, or new ships. Granted, no proof; but that's what logical deduction tells me based on all the evidence presented thus far.


Oh and as for the 'War on Terror' the only reason that you Yanks are still fighting is that war is very profitable for big multinational corporations who sell weapons, armour, security, rebuilding of infrastructure, etc and also it is good for politicians who are funded by aforementioned corporations and can use it to whip up hysteria and votes to get themselves elected and maintain the hegemony they hold. If you think that the war is about making America safe or spreading 'democracy' then your sadly deluded. Nothing to do with the worlds perception of use of nuclear weapons, the Yanks are still the only country in the world to have used a nuclear bomb in a war so id say their reputation as a bunch of triggerhappy cowboys is well and truly set in stone...

I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this. If the US could have gotten away with nuking Iraq or Iran or North Korea, they would have. The main point was that the US isn't really threatened by any small countries when you come right down to it, which they would be the equivalent of the LA.

KEK
October 7th, 2010, 06:11 PM
People seem to think that the Lucian Alliance (who are human) are some huge massive organization that has an incredibly large population to draw on just because it controls multiple planets. However, you have to remember that most MW planets have very small populations of humans (brought there by Goa'ulds to serve them) - Earth has by far to largest population of humans in the galaxy as evidenced by the comments of the System Lords when they came to Earth in SG:Continuum and were shocked that humans were allowed "to breed to those numbers"

Most LA planets probably only have a couple hundred thousand people at most, so in a prolonged war that revealed the Stargate program and brought Earth together to fight an outside threat production power and soldiers would shift to the Tauri rather quickly, especially when combined with the Free Jaffa allies.

Earth is one planet, the galaxy is pretty huge. I'm sure it would be easier for the LA to wipe out Earth in one fell swoop than it would be for Earth to defeat the LA. Cloaked cargo ships full of nukes could destroy Earth quite easily.

morbosfist
October 7th, 2010, 06:24 PM
Earth is one planet, the galaxy is pretty huge. I'm sure it would be easier for the LA to wipe out Earth in one fell swoop than it would be for Earth to defeat the LA. Cloaked cargo ships full of nukes could destroy Earth quite easily.Assuming the Alliance ever thought of that. The Goa'uld aren't big on nukes, and we've only ever seen two types of decent-sized bombs which the Goa'uld have pretty much never used. Then there was Imhotep and his suicide bombers, but he was clearly an idiot.

Descended
October 7th, 2010, 06:40 PM
Earth is one planet, the galaxy is pretty huge. I'm sure it would be easier for the LA to wipe out Earth in one fell swoop than it would be for Earth to defeat the LA. Cloaked cargo ships full of nukes could destroy Earth quite easily.

I am not sure why everyone is so scared of cloaked cargo ships (and why Carter said that they are undetectable *writers contrivance in my opinion) since we have seen primitive Wraith sensors with a single ZPM detect puddlejumper cloaks which have to be better than goa'uld cargo cloaks since they are Ancient design (and don't suffer the atmosphere problem discussed below) Atlantis is sitting on Earth with its uber-powerful sensors which could literally scan the entire Pegasus galaxy. I think SGU is just trying to distance itself from Atlantis on that one.

And, we have seen cloaked cargo ships detected as they pass through an atmosphere or as they exit hyperspace. With proper tweaking I am sure a F304 or Atlantis' sensors could be made to detect them. It is just a convenient plot device to make the LA seem worse than they are. The goa'uld never did it, so why do you fear the LA so much.

PG15
October 7th, 2010, 07:26 PM
No need for nukes, just a lot of naquahdah.

Clearly, if Kiva and her gang can land a cloaked cargoship on Earth, others can as well. Whether that's because it's truly undetectable or Earth people are just not looking all the time, it does give away Earth's weakness. Cargoships can land here, and once that happens all bets are off.

The Goa'uld never did it because obviously they wouldn't let Earth be destroyed (i.e. writers contrivance), but in the show it's mostly because of SG1's Awesomeness, the Goa'uld's infighting, and the Asgard treaty.

But mostly SG1's Awesomeness.

garhkal
October 8th, 2010, 04:48 AM
That's when you make an example out of one of them with a Mark IX.

Not to mention they could hook up Merlin's shroud and phase shift the whole planet. No one on Earth would know it happened except for the brief flash of light which could be explained as a gamma ray burst or something. Then Earth just sits back untouchable. With the ZPMs from Atlantis it shouldn't be too difficult if the US power grid was able to do it in the "Road Not Taken" episode.

And how long could they maintain said shifting without having something else bad happen..?


No, the LA ain't gettin' anywhere near Earth's ship production facilities. And even if they do damage or blow them up, we'll just build new ones with better security.

And how long will that take? The world is already in a recession. IMO that is part of why senator armstrong and chloe were at the Icarus planet, to see where all those tax dollars were going to, to see if said expenditure was worth it. Do you realise how much it would cost to replace just one 304?


Put yourself up as too much of a threat, and people stronger than you will come along and knock you down.

Since we still have terrorists on earth in the SG verse, who is to say the LA's acts would be seen AS being them and not the other groups?


Same goes for the production facilities for making ships? How do we know that Earth have more / better facilities than the LA? The LA have taken over the Goa'uld space and planets and the Goa'uld had the capability to produce starships, fighters, bombers, etc.

And wih the Jaffa nation in disarray after the Ori war, who's to say more were not taken over by the LA..


No, it doesn't stand. The Phoenix was up against a superior enemy force in every sense of the word. Their weapons, hull strength, and overall firepower exceed that of any Ha'tak. It would take at least three times the amount of ships for the Alliance to do the same, and they have never committed such a fleet.

Which is why i said 10 or so should do the trick. ANd just cause we have not seen them do so prior, does NOT mean they lack the capacity to do so in the future.


Sure, feed it power. Like that is such an easy thing to do. Get your facts straight here. The only times that ever worked were when Anubis tried to destroy the Stargate, and that took a colossal amount of power. Even the Goa'uld couldn't do it on their own.

WRONG.. See early into season 3/4 when we had Apophis and Sokar dialed in and used some partical accelerator to bombard our gate to keep it open (and superheat the iris)... That was done before Anubis did it in season 6.


And no, the Alliance did not in any way attempt to lock out a Stargate with a virus. I'm not even sure where you pulled that idea from.

IIRC we got locked out from some planets we knew of that is why the oddesy wa sent out


It would need to have its shields up to survive re-entry, and any ship able to get that close would have its shields knocked out before it could even enter the atmosphere.

If cloaked, we would not see it till it was already here. So since they already had at least 1 shuttle here, AND so too did Ba'al (and the jaffa) that meant they brought them in cloaked THROUGH the atmosphere cloaked, meaning they can do so. Also the shuttle teal'c came in with in Continuoum came down cloaked.


Now you're applying double standards. Telford is a spy for them in Icarus. They did not have any spies during the sun destroying incident.

How is that a double standard? If i am a spy for you on one subject, what is stopping me getting you MORE info? Especially when it also concerns the gate and our use of it??? And why can they not have other spys? Look how many the trust had.


They haven't changed. They weren't a ragtag group to start with. They were what they are now: opportunistic thugs. The only change from then to now is the fact that they have a spy.

To you maybe. To me they have gone from being a lowly group of thugs to an organized group of criminals.


Telford has only been able to information on Icarus as far as we know.

Again.. how do you know for certain that is all he was able to get them? Gott prophetic powers? Read the script?



They can't replicate our tactics because they don't have the same resources. They don't have every gate address, nor many of the technologies we employ.

They have access to top secret info n the 9th cheveon. So it is logical to see them having a lot more info on the other gates. Heck for all we know Telford could have been a SG team leader (which would have given him good knowledge ON the gate addresses and mission reports) before being assigned to infiltrate them.



I call it the functional equivalent of a ring transporter. It is not the same as site to site transportation technology.

And I call it a variation on site to site transportation... Even in Star trek stuff was stored in a pattern buffer before completing its journey. WE also already know so too do the stargates store info in a buffer before completing the matter replication (teal'c in a season 4-5 era episode)...


To expand on this further and IF Atlantis is still on Earth: The sensors on Atlantis is very powerful. Remember, they knew the Wraith were coming two weeks ahead of time and that was using one ZPM. If the Luciene Alliance was coming to Earth in force with the big ships (no cloaking ability) they would be detected. If they did have cloaking abilities I would think that they wouldn't cloak the ships until they had gotten closer to Earth. .

I'll give ya that. BUT those were always Hive ships (or cruisers).. Rarely others. And nothing says Atlantis is still on earth.


We know how the Alliance is set up. We know their outposts, their trade routes, major centers of production, most of their leaders and organization structure. If they attacked Earth, those placed would be leveled. Earth would retaliate, because when your enemy has proved they can and are willing to attack you, you do your best to put them out of commission.

We obviously don't know their stuff well enough otherwise we would have KNOWN where their icarus project was, that they had upgraded hattaks capable of downing our beam weapons, AND had also located a major source of info on the destiny..


Given that they've only committed, at most, three Ha'tak vessels to any one engagement, they simply cannot be that well stocked on the big guns. But I'll concede that they may simply be stingy in how they deploy.

IIRC 4 or 5 came out at camelot (But got blown up).. And i do think they are stingy.

[QUOTE=morbosfist;11963152]

[QUOTE=morbosfist;11963152]

morbosfist
October 8th, 2010, 08:07 AM
And how long could they maintain said shifting without having something else bad happen..?Long enough to avoid death by Ori ships. This is a proven effective tactic.


And how long will that take? The world is already in a recession. IMO that is part of why senator armstrong and chloe were at the Icarus planet, to see where all those tax dollars were going to, to see if said expenditure was worth it. Do you realise how much it would cost to replace just one 304?Our world is, not theirs.


Since we still have terrorists on earth in the SG verse, who is to say the LA's acts would be seen AS being them and not the other groups?Which is an absolutely inaccurate comparison. Terrorists don't fly around in easily identifable spaceships.


And wih the Jaffa nation in disarray after the Ori war, who's to say more were not taken over by the LA..The fact that they can't commit more than three to one engagement in any situation.


Which is why i said 10 or so should do the trick. ANd just cause we have not seen them do so prior, does NOT mean they lack the capacity to do so in the future.But it does mean that they will not do so normally, which means they would have to overcommit their resources to take out one ship, and they won't.


WRONG.. See early into season 3/4 when we had Apophis and Sokar dialed in and used some partical accelerator to bombard our gate to keep it open (and superheat the iris)... That was done before Anubis did it in season 6.Which shut down every 38 minutes, allowing us to dial out. If you're going to draw up examples, get all the details down.


IIRC we got locked out from some planets we knew of that is why the oddesy wa sent outNo, that's not what happened at all.

http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s10/1009.shtml


If cloaked, we would not see it till it was already here. So since they already had at least 1 shuttle here, AND so too did Ba'al (and the jaffa) that meant they brought them in cloaked THROUGH the atmosphere cloaked, meaning they can do so. Also the shuttle teal'c came in with in Continuoum came down cloaked.It's established in canon that cloaked ships can be detected passing through the atmosphere if people are actively scanning for them. They succeeded in those instances because people weren't looking and it is a very big planet.


How is that a double standard? If i am a spy for you on one subject, what is stopping me getting you MORE info? Especially when it also concerns the gate and our use of it??? And why can they not have other spys? Look how many the trust had.It's a double standard because the Alliance had never even met the Tau'ri, yet you act like they must have had spies all the way back then. Telford's job was to gather data on Icarus, that's it. Your comparison to the Trust is wholly flawed.


To you maybe. To me they have gone from being a lowly group of thugs to an organized group of criminals.Which they were at the start. How is that a change?


Again.. how do you know for certain that is all he was able to get them? Gott prophetic powers? Read the script?Common sense.


They have access to top secret info n the 9th cheveon. So it is logical to see them having a lot more info on the other gates. Heck for all we know Telford could have been a SG team leader (which would have given him good knowledge ON the gate addresses and mission reports) before being assigned to infiltrate them.Telford was a spy for nearly a year, which means he didn't have access to that. Telford only has access to his immediate command, which is Icarus.


And I call it a variation on site to site transportation... Even in Star trek stuff was stored in a pattern buffer before completing its journey. WE also already know so too do the stargates store info in a buffer before completing the matter replication (teal'c in a season 4-5 era episode)...Star Trek transporters are the same as Asgard transporters, so that comparison doesn't fly. I'll make this simple. Wraith beams can't collect a target from deep underground without line of sight. Asgrad beams can. End of story. It is not the same.


We obviously don't know their stuff well enough otherwise we would have KNOWN where their icarus project was, that they had upgraded hattaks capable of downing our beam weapons, AND had also located a major source of info on the destiny..There's no proof they can resist beam weapons. The Hammond never fired back except for rail guns. One planet does not matter in the grand scheme. We know their major centers of operation, that's enough.


IIRC 4 or 5 came out at camelot (But got blown up).. And i do think they are stingy.Only three were Alliance Ha'taks. The rest were Jaffa ships.

jsonitsac
October 8th, 2010, 08:35 AM
I think the question is how much Goa'uld hardware is out there? To me, there seems to be some inconsistency to answer this question. Way back in season 2 of SG-1 the loss of Apophis' two ha'taks was seen as a major defeat for him. Then we saw Sokar's fleet (which Apophis took over) and had about ten times as many ships. Those ships were destroyed by Carter's sun trick. Anubis came along and amassed an even larger fleet. Bra'tac described this fleet the full force of Anubis' when he was attacking Earth in Lost City. After Lost City those ships were all destroyed but Ba'al seemed to build up a fairly respectable size fleet, only to have it taken over by the replicators. Most of these ships probably fell into the hands of the Free Jaffa, although the Ba'al clones (and their Jaffa followers) and the Lucian Alliance managed to get their hands on some. It is probably safe to assume that the Ori took out more than just the Ha'taks at the battle of the Supergate and lessened the numbers even more.

Obviously, the writers can create as many Ha'taks, Alkesh, and gliders as they need. Sort of like how in Star Trek warp speed factors were basically as fast as the plot need them to be.

Kaiphantom
October 8th, 2010, 09:09 AM
And how long will that take? The world is already in a recession. IMO that is part of why senator armstrong and chloe were at the Icarus planet, to see where all those tax dollars were going to, to see if said expenditure was worth it. Do you realise how much it would cost to replace just one 304?

With the fate of Earth on the line, I think you'd find people more than willing to put money aside and build more ships. Cost isn't an issue when your life is on the line.


Since we still have terrorists on earth in the SG verse, who is to say the LA's acts would be seen AS being them and not the other groups?

I assume the SGC would be able to tell. It all depends on if the LA broadcasts taking credit for it, or using a particularly large naquadria or naquada bomb or such. It's likely that they could hide as another terrorist group, but with some grunt work, we'll be able to tell if it's a homegrown group or the LA. There are no perfect crimes; only imperfect investigations.

Edit: About ships and shipyards.... there was one SG-1 episode (Morpheus? Orpheus? something like that) where Bratac was captured and they were forcing people to mine and build a ship. The ship itself floated above, but it didn't really appear to be a shipyard. Also, Apophis's supership that the enhanced SG-1 took out. If those are any indication, there aren't really any shipyards, but each ship is crafted wherever there are suitable resources. Given that, the LA would simply have the ships that the Goa'uld left over, without any capability to make more. That would make them cautious about risking them in combat. The Jaffa might be able to build ships, depending on how much knowledge the Goa'uld left them with, but their whole system depended on keeping non-Goa'uld mostly ignorant.

The Tok'ra would have the knowledge to make Hatak motherships, though. If anything, the LA would have to infiltrate another planet that makes their own ships, such as Hebredon (I think that was the name of that planet with humans and aliens living side by side?).

Of course, if they do have some Goa'uld scientists or a few knowledgeable people who know how to make ships, they could probably coerce them into doing so, but it would be along, grueling process. I gather Earth could churn out ships faster than the LA.

Descended
October 8th, 2010, 09:24 AM
You are forgetting they had a Colonel feeding them information and specs on Earther technology. Even if the LA has mediocre engineers they should be on an even footing with Earth. Transporters, sheilds, intergalactic hyperdrives and slow beams of doom.

Is anyone really gonna argue that Telford didnt put the specs for everything on a thumb drive and hand it over to the alliance? I mean for bleeps sake they had earth computers and all of the Icarus technology except rushes formula... and that was the highest top secret project ever!

The LA is clearly an even match technologically for Earth.

I am not sure why the Icarus project would be the "highest top secret project ever" since they didn't even know what would happen if they dialed the 9th chevron. It was basically an interesting side project with indeterminate results. There is no way in the military that Telford had access to the plans for any of the Earth technologies. Do you think any Colonel in the military can access our hydrogen bomb plans or the blueprints for a stealth bomber?

The only one I can think of who would have a reason for that kind of access is Sam and that is because she is the world's military expert on Asgard and Ancient technology. (McKay is a civilian) Telford would have had personnel records and progress reports on Icarus base and that is it. It is called strategic division of information, he doesn't have a blank check in the military computer system.


And how long will that take? The world is already in a recession. IMO that is part of why senator armstrong and chloe were at the Icarus planet, to see where all those tax dollars were going to, to see if said expenditure was worth it. Do you realise how much it would cost to replace just one 304?

Armstrong was there because he was thinking of shutting down the Icarus project, not the Stargate project. No matter how many billions the US has pumped into the SGC over the years the rewards are infinitely higher. We have discovered thousands of habitable worlds for potential colonization and mining which would be worth trillions upon trillions of dollars, unlimited alternative energy in the form of naquadah generators which could power all of Earth society without fossil fuels, intergalactic spaceships and the entire knowledge base of both the Ancients and the Asgard.

The monetary argument against the SGC has always been retarded. The mineral rights alone on a single habitable (but uninhabited) planet would be worth more than could ever be spent by the military or the US government for that matter. Imagine finding the equivalent of all resources on Earth for a few billion dollar investment. Even if the SGC cost a trillion dollars it would still be worth it.

The most unrealistic aspect of Stargate is that we have had these technologies for basically 2 decades now and they haven't filtered down into everyday life. Asgard beaming technology could end world hunger overnight since it has been shown to be able to replicate food (Unending) and could be powered by naquadah generators.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 8th, 2010, 11:27 AM
Kai,


With the fate of Earth on the line, I think you'd find people more than willing to put money aside and build more ships. Cost isn't an issue when your life is on the line.

Assuming the entire GDP of Earth were immdieately redirected to building 304s that still doesn't mean it could be done quickly. They need trained people to build them and exotic materials to build them with. Now, we do have the Stargate, but, the Stargate is a bottleneck limiting the amount of material that can be brought to the construction facilities at any given time.

Deserperation is a great motivator, but it can't overcome the laws of physics and the time necessary to build the infrastructure necessary to build large numbers of 304s.

morbosfist
October 8th, 2010, 11:44 AM
Couldn't be done quickly? Inside of six-seven years we've built six 304s with the resources of a single country in secret. That's basically either one 304 a year or several built side to side over two or three. If national production was suddenly shifted to 304s, we'd turn out that many in a fraction of the time. We already have a surplus of resources and the means to transport large amounts quickly, both through the Stargate and via 304s.

If wartime production were really necessary, you can be sure we'd have a sizable fleet in no time flat.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 8th, 2010, 12:44 PM
Morbo,

So, building a 304 would be like building a liberty ship? Just weld and lay pipe till done? No special materials needed, no special training for the shipwrights needed to get the ships properly constructed and outfitted, No special facilities needed to be built to build more ships more quickly?

Is it really your position that we could start churning out 304's like fighters during WWII with no lead up or infrastructure necessary before they start popping off the assembly line?

As for transporting materials to Earth with 304s, what the hell are we going to be fighting the LA fleet with if our 304s are being used as cargo ships?

Kaiphantom
October 8th, 2010, 01:29 PM
Assuming the entire GDP of Earth were immdieately redirected to building 304s that still doesn't mean it could be done quickly. They need trained people to build them and exotic materials to build them with. Now, we do have the Stargate, but, the Stargate is a bottleneck limiting the amount of material that can be brought to the construction facilities at any given time.

Deserperation is a great motivator, but it can't overcome the laws of physics and the time necessary to build the infrastructure necessary to build large numbers of 304s.

Necessity is the mother of invention. War is the mother of necessity. Never underestimate what mankind can accomplish if they put their minds to it, especially when survival is on the line. WW2 is a great example, as we were producing tanks, planes and ships at a record pace. Prometheus itself was developed and built in an incredibly short time-span; I remember people back on the boards claiming it was too short, as it was basically done within a few years. Once you have blueprints (for ships AND shipyards), engineers can build them quickly if properly motivated.

And yes, right now we're producing about 1 ship a year. Considering we gave the Russians (and presumably the Chinese) a ship, that is just with the US producing them. Ramp that up to 5x when the UK, Russians, France, AND China are producing their own ships. We have virtually unlimited materials via minerals on other planets, which can be brought back through the gate easily. With the Earth itself at stake, I can foresee us making simpler cargo ships to chug materials back and forth, too.

The bottom line is that the LA would have to have one hell of an advantage and a motive for attacking Earth. At this point in time, it's stupid for them to contemplate.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 8th, 2010, 01:40 PM
Kai,

That's true, at the end of the war. It took the US 6 months to a year to really et tooled properly for war time production. That was without the addtional constrant of having to build high tech devices and bring materials from off world. It would take time to ramp up to war production.

PG15
October 8th, 2010, 01:44 PM
I still maintain that they do have an advantage, mainly in numbers and spread across the galaxy. And then there are those cloaked cargoships.

Motive is another story. So far the only thing that comes to mind is Earth being a pain in the mikta.

On a separate note, Anateo from Company of Thieves has at least heard of Sam Carter, so I'm guessing that the LA are familiar with some of the exploits of SG1, especially since they've dealt with the LA a lot more than any other humans (beside Telford, of course). It's not hard for me to think that they know about what SG1 has done, including that sun destroying incident.

I mean really, SG1 blew up a star and wiped out Apophis's fleet. Stuff like that isn't kept on the down-lo.

Basically, I don't think anyone is saying that the LA will win in a head-to-head match up. However, if the LA were to go in in stealth mode, then they have a good chance of at least greatly-damaging the human infrastructure on Earth.

morbosfist
October 8th, 2010, 01:52 PM
So, building a 304 would be like building a liberty ship? Just weld and lay pipe till done? No special materials needed, no special training for the shipwrights needed to get the ships properly constructed and outfitted, No special facilities needed to be built to build more ships more quickly?Not everyone needs to know every aspect of the job. You spread out the various labor jobs, ship the parts to another facility, put them together there. Ships could be produced in a fraction of the time they are now, since right now they're all built in a single facility.


Is it really your position that we could start churning out 304's like fighters during WWII with no lead up or infrastructure necessary before they start popping off the assembly line?Infrastructure can be altered to produce different products in comparatively little time. If it came down to a war, the infrastructure would be adapted to serve the cause, and it would get done fast.


As for transporting materials to Earth with 304s, what the hell are we going to be fighting the LA fleet with if our 304s are being used as cargo ships?Only need one ship doing supply runs, there's still four more to guard Earth and any other big-name outposts.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 8th, 2010, 02:10 PM
Morbo,

Building a 304 is a tad more complex than building a flying fortress. You are drastically underestimating the difficulties here.

Dii-Reno
October 8th, 2010, 02:14 PM
Do you really know that for sure though? I'd bet could eventually win like the Wraith did with Atlantis but it would just take a significant amount of time and losses. Even if we assumed Earth had enough resources stockpiled to bring our fleet up to a dozen 304's the Lucian Alliance could easily prevent us from using the stargate to build more ships or even repair our existing ships. So we'd have to spread out our fleet between defending Earth, attacking the Alliance and defending our offworld facilities if we are to have any hope of getting more resources. Eventually, we'd be stuck with just Atlantis which has a limited supply of drones and could not possibly protect the entire planet from attacks. If Atlantis was still sitting in San Francisco, do you think countries like Britain and France who are on the opposite side of the planet would just sit back as they get pounded?

Everyone is forgetting the fact that we have access to the asgard's entire 300,000 year library with holographic interface. I'm sure there are quite efficient defense satellite instructions buried in those archives. Plus there are asgard scanning satellites which could be used to detect and scan away bombs detected anywhere on the planet.

That completely ends the entire threat posed by any military force on Earth. If the fictional coalition of nations on earth wanted to completely pacify the galaxy it could.

morbosfist
October 8th, 2010, 02:57 PM
Building a 304 is a tad more complex than building a flying fortress. You are drastically underestimating the difficulties here.And you're ignoring that they did it in a year, building the manufacturing facilities from scratch and shipping the parts from off-world. Now they have an Asgard knowledge base containing detailed blueprints for everything the Asgard made. Do the Asgard look like the kind of people who'd be assembling things by hand?

Face it, the Lucian Alliance doesn't stand a chance in a straight fight. Their ships are far inferior, they might not even be replaceable, and Earth still has allies with bigger fleets if we want to call in a marker. The galaxy owes us, and a bunch of uppity crooks aren't going to be standing up to that kind of firepower.

Descended
October 8th, 2010, 03:51 PM
Not to mention we could always bust out some completely reprogrammed replicators (a desperation move to be sure since the little buggers tend to run amok) but Rodney knows enough about replicator base-code to be able to make a pretty fool-proof replicator. We have the Ancient blue-prints for them and the Asurans were unable to attack the Lanteans for thousands of years until we played around with them and left their base-code open to changes. It is entirely possible we could create a replicator which could be programmed to only attack LA targets (and ignore Earth and ally targets) and still respond to shut off commands and deactivation sequences.

Before you start, I know the replicators in Ark of Truth went out of control, but to be fair they were designed by some schmuck on Earth and the Asgard core which filled in the blanks. I am sure that Rodney and Sam working together with Thor (holographic) could create ones which are perfectly safe and retain a command to prevent them from turning on us. After all, Fran worked perfectly and she was a stripped down model programmed entirely by Rodney.

Hell, given how fast they can construct ships and weapons, we could always create a bunch of human form worker drones using the machine on Atlantis and have them constructing F304s. The Asurans built dozens and dozens of Aurora class ships in the space of a few weeks (between Daedalus pass-overs) so putting them to work would significantly increase our production capacity. We could have a formidable fleet rather quickly if we went to extremes.

nx01a
October 8th, 2010, 04:56 PM
Creating any form of Replicator is just begging for it to replicate and to go Cylon on us again. Hopefully, Earth humans have learned that by now.

Vanek26
October 8th, 2010, 05:54 PM
Creating any form of Replicator is just begging for it to replicate and to go Cylon on us again. Hopefully, Earth humans have learned that by now.

We can only hope that the writers agree.

Descended
October 8th, 2010, 06:33 PM
Creating any form of Replicator is just begging for it to replicate and to go Cylon on us again. Hopefully, Earth humans have learned that by now.

I agree, but they would make a good "take em down with us" weapon. Meh, although gotta admit they did work well against the Asurans.

smart
October 8th, 2010, 09:43 PM
Producer, Joseph Mallozzi confirmed in today's post on his blog that the storyline of the LA attack against Earth heating up will tie in several episodes later in the season.

nx01a
October 8th, 2010, 11:47 PM
Wonderful! Space battles! I MUST have them!

Ahem. Sorry. I just love my space battles! SGU's the only sci-fi show on air now with a ship in space... and I'm desperate for more space battles!

garhkal
October 9th, 2010, 07:03 AM
Long enough to avoid death by Ori ships. This is a proven effective tactic.

IIRC of the ep, sam had the earth 'phased' for only 1 day. So we do not know the long term effects.. if any.



Our world is, not theirs.

True dat. BUT we do keep hearing that the SG verse is very similar to our earth.. ergo if we are in a recession, what is to say they are not also in a recession...



Which is an absolutely inaccurate comparison. Terrorists don't fly around in easily identifable spaceships.

You are not getting me. We have our own terrorists. We have also seen (and had several films) based on one group doing X but making it seem as group Y did it... So what i am saying is what is to stop the LA from making any strike they DO do, look like our terrorists.. YES i know if they do so flying in their cargo ships it will be game over.. BUT they are established here already (as seen by how much control they had in the telford situation), so what is to say they don't use THOSE assets to strike us.



The fact that they can't commit more than three to one engagement in any situation.

From what i remember of Teal'c speech, Natan only committed what he personally had there.



But it does mean that they will not do so normally, which means they would have to overcommit their resources to take out one ship, and they won't.

How do you know they would not commit a good chunk of their fleet to take out each of our ships.. How long does it take us to make one? And since we only have what, 5, the loss of one is a BIG deal.



Which shut down every 38 minutes, allowing us to dial out. If you're going to draw up examples, get all the details down.

As we have seen from that ep, they were able to dial it quicker.. So what is to say the LA can't beat us to the punch and dial us quicker as well....



No, that's not what happened at all.

http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s10/1009.shtml


I stand corrected good sir.



It's established in canon that cloaked ships can be detected passing through the atmosphere if people are actively scanning for them. They succeeded in those instances because people weren't looking and it is a very big planet.

Which then is a reason they could do so again, and again.



It's a double standard because the Alliance had never even met the Tau'ri, yet you act like they must have had spies all the way back then. Telford's job was to gather data on Icarus, that's it. Your comparison to the Trust is wholly flawed.

They met us all the way back in season 6 (Prometheus unbound).. So did know of us then...
As to telford, It seems you are the only one saying that Icarus was his ownly goal for data theft. The rest of us think he had more goals.



Which they were at the start. How is that a change?

It is to me, the difference between say a street gang and the mob. Organization and size.



Common sense.

To me it is assumption.. nothing more.



Telford was a spy for nearly a year, which means he didn't have access to that. Telford only has access to his immediate command, which is Icarus.


And you don't think in that year, he took leave? Had access up there to other SG material?



Star Trek transporters are the same as Asgard transporters, so that comparison doesn't fly. I'll make this simple. Wraith beams can't collect a target from deep underground without line of sight. Asgrad beams can. End of story. It is not the same.


I am not saying they are exactly the same. BUT they operate in a similar fashion.



There's no proof they can resist beam weapons. The Hammond never fired back except for rail guns. One planet does not matter in the grand scheme. We know their major centers of operation, that's enough.

Which is then a key that maybe the hammond did NOT have beam weapons.



Only three were Alliance Ha'taks. The rest were Jaffa ships.

Again i stand corrected..


With the fate of Earth on the line, I think you'd find people more than willing to put money aside and build more ships. Cost isn't an issue when your life is on the line.

I will give you that K.. BUT for it to get to that level, we would have to imo come clean on the whole operation... Full disclosure.


There are no perfect crimes; only imperfect investigations.

I'll give ya that..


Given that, the LA would simply have the ships that the Goa'uld left over, without any capability to make more. That would make them cautious about risking them in combat. The Jaffa might be able to build ships, depending on how much knowledge the Goa'uld left them with, but their whole system depended on keeping non-Goa'uld mostly ignorant.

I think an organization like theirs would have at least taken over 2-3 of those Orpheus like planets, for the purpose of making more ships. Kind of hard to rule over a dominion without the capacity to control it.


The only one I can think of who would have a reason for that kind of access is Sam and that is because she is the world's military expert on Asgard and Ancient technology. (McKay is a civilian) Telford would have had personnel records and progress reports on Icarus base and that is it. It is called strategic division of information, he doesn't have a blank check in the military computer system.

Maybe not, but as we saw with mitchell, anyone in the sgc org has access to all the other mission reports..


Deserperation is a great motivator, but it can't overcome the laws of physics and the time necessary to build the infrastructure necessary to build large numbers of 304s.

Great point. And i doubt we would shift one or more of the 304s to ferrying ore..


Necessity is the mother of invention. War is the mother of necessity. Never underestimate what mankind can accomplish if they put their minds to it, especially when survival is on the line. WW2 is a great example, as we were producing tanks, planes and ships at a record pace.

I'll give ya that.. though with those things we already had much of the infrastructure already in place..


We have virtually unlimited materials via minerals on other planets, which can be brought back through the gate easily

I am sorry, but i do not see it being THAT easy to bring material through the gate. First off, we have to use the gate continually for that. Which means no off world ops against the LA or intel missions. We would also have to have the infrastructure inplace ON those planets to do said mining. AND we would have to have the means here once it got through the gate to get it to the other sites.. I do not see the SGC letting itself be taken over for that.


Only need one ship doing supply runs, there's still four more to guard Earth and any other big-name outposts.

And what is stoppng the LA taking out that one ship.


Everyone is forgetting the fact that we have access to the asgard's entire 300,000 year library with holographic interface. I'm sure there are quite efficient defense satellite instructions buried in those archives. Plus there are asgard scanning satellites which could be used to detect and scan away bombs detected anywhere on the planet.

Just cause we have the plans, does not mean we have the materials to do so..




Producer, Joseph Mallozzi confirmed in today's post on his blog that the storyline of the LA attack against Earth heating up will tie in several episodes later in the season.


'HUZZA!

Vanek26
October 9th, 2010, 08:17 AM
Producer, Joseph Mallozzi confirmed in today's post on his blog that the storyline of the LA attack against Earth heating up will tie in several episodes later in the season.

Hell yes! This should be great.

Kaiphantom
October 9th, 2010, 08:38 AM
That's true, at the end of the war. It took the US 6 months to a year to really et tooled properly for war time production. That was without the addtional constrant of having to build high tech devices and bring materials from off world. It would take time to ramp up to war production.

What do you think our scuffle with the Goa'uld was called? That's one reason why we got ships in the air fairly quickly. Ask any engineer, and they'll tell you that once you have the knowledge and facilities for something, building it is almost child's play and can be done fairly quickly if needed. Earth has the infrastructure in place now, and they have the knowledge, and they have a lot of skilled and knowledgeable people.


I still maintain that they do have an advantage, mainly in numbers and spread across the galaxy. And then there are those cloaked cargoships.

I would disagree with this. From what I've seen, building a Hatak is a long process, possibly as long as building a 304. Apophis took time to get two ships, and we've never really seen a large Hatak fleet, other than Anubis, but he had most of the system lords behind him. I get the impression there aren't that many Hataks, probably no more than 50. And assuming the LA can even build those ships, it'll take them awhile.

AND the LA is not one unified force. Much like the System Lords, there are many factions with ships divided between them. Those ships would be seen as a precious resource.

AND the Jaffa got a number of those ships when the system lords went down.


Motive is another story. So far the only thing that comes to mind is Earth being a pain in the mikta.

This is one of my pet peeves about this whole LA attack deal. Really, the smartest move the LA could make would be to lay low and avoid Earth for the time being. The galaxy is huge, and Earth doesn't occupy a whole lot. If I were the LA, I'd focus on taking over places like Langara, Hebredon, or the Jaffa planets. They are weaker, and would provide me a stronger base. If the LA attack Earth, it's only because they are dumb as hell, and I'd have a hard time believing that.


Basically, I don't think anyone is saying that the LA will win in a head-to-head match up. However, if the LA were to go in in stealth mode, then they have a good chance of at least greatly-damaging the human infrastructure on Earth.

That's about all they can do. Land some cloaked cargo ships, plant some bombs, and blow some low-key stuff up. But doing so will only rile a beehive and bring the full force of Earth against the LA. As a leader in the LA, that's not something I'd like right now. Besides, ask Japan how well their surprise attack worked for them.

morbosfist
October 9th, 2010, 08:47 AM
IIRC of the ep, sam had the earth 'phased' for only 1 day. So we do not know the long term effects.. if any.There are no long-term effects. Graviational force still applies and light still radiates. Perfectly safe. One day would have been sufficient to kill everyone on Earth is it affected anything.


True dat. BUT we do keep hearing that the SG verse is very similar to our earth.. ergo if we are in a recession, what is to say they are not also in a recession...The fact that they have different experiences than us.


You are not getting me. We have our own terrorists. We have also seen (and had several films) based on one group doing X but making it seem as group Y did it... So what i am saying is what is to stop the LA from making any strike they DO do, look like our terrorists.. YES i know if they do so flying in their cargo ships it will be game over.. BUT they are established here already (as seen by how much control they had in the telford situation), so what is to say they don't use THOSE assets to strike us.We'd be able to tell the difference. Alien weapons aren't the same as human ones.


From what i remember of Teal'c speech, Natan only committed what he personally had there.Netan runs the Lucian Alliance. He could have committed more.


How do you know they would not commit a good chunk of their fleet to take out each of our ships.. How long does it take us to make one? And since we only have what, 5, the loss of one is a BIG deal.It takes a year to build a ship, and that was by the standards of common Earth manufacturing. Now we have Asgard tech. And if they had the kind of resources to commit to that, Earth wouldn't be a threat.


As we have seen from that ep, they were able to dial it quicker.. So what is to say the LA can't beat us to the punch and dial us quicker as well...Because in that same episode we dialled quicker than Sokar.


Which then is a reason they could do so again, and again. Right up until we got tired of it and monitored 24/7. Strategy fails.


They met us all the way back in season 6 (Prometheus unbound).. So did know of us then...
As to telford, It seems you are the only one saying that Icarus was his ownly goal for data theft. The rest of us think he had more goals.One, that was Vala, and she hadn't even heard of us. It was coincidence. Telford was only stealing Icarus data. Rush was in his mind; he'd know.


It is to me, the difference between say a street gang and the mob. Organization and size.Neither of which has changed from then to now.


And you don't think in that year, he took leave? Had access up there to other SG material?If he took leave, he wouldn't be working period. It would be even more suspicious.


I am not saying they are exactly the same. BUT they operate in a similar fashion.It's like a land land vs a cell phone.


Which is then a key that maybe the hammond did NOT have beam weapons.Which would only go to prove that the Alliance can't take a 304 that's fully armed.


I think an organization like theirs would have at least taken over 2-3 of those Orpheus like planets, for the purpose of making more ships. Kind of hard to rule over a dominion without the capacity to control it.When your enemy doesn't have the same ability, it's a lot easier. There's no evidence that anyone but the Goa'uld have the knowledge to build their ships.


Maybe not, but as we saw with mitchell, anyone in the sgc org has access to all the other mission reports..Mitchell was given the reports because he was going to lead SG1.


I am sorry, but i do not see it being THAT easy to bring material through the gate. First off, we have to use the gate continually for that. Which means no off world ops against the LA or intel missions. We would also have to have the infrastructure inplace ON those planets to do said mining. AND we would have to have the means here once it got through the gate to get it to the other sites.. I do not see the SGC letting itself be taken over for that.The SGC already runs a few dozen teams at any one time. The gate doesn't need to be active constantly. Scheduled daily supply drops would be simple.


And what is stoppng the LA taking out that one ship.The fact that it's in hyperspace most of the time and their ships are no match.


Just cause we have the plans, does not mean we have the materials to do so..We've duplicated beam weapons for all our 304s save one. We have the technology.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 9th, 2010, 10:33 AM
Kai,


What do you think our scuffle with the Goa'uld was called? That's one reason why we got ships in the air fairly quickly. Ask any engineer, and they'll tell you that once you have the knowledge and facilities for something, building it is almost child's play and can be done fairly quickly if needed. Earth has the infrastructure in place now, and they have the knowledge, and they have a lot of skilled and knowledgeable people.

I thought this was a secret program? How many people can you have working on building 304s and still keep it a secret. The factilities have got to be concealed and people have to be kept quite. They cannot pump out large numbers of 304s unless the construction of 304s is completely automated. Even then the stargate raw material bottleneck will be a problem.

As for the suggestion of replicators, are those the things that were kicking the Asguard's ass for some time. Do you really want to go down that road?

morbosfist
October 9th, 2010, 10:42 AM
I thought this was a secret program? How many people can you have working on building 304s and still keep it a secret. The factilities have got to be concealed and people have to be kept quite. They cannot pump out large numbers of 304s unless the construction of 304s is completely automated. Even then the stargate raw material bottleneck will be a problem.Let's see: Area 51, enough teams for full staff of numerous off-world bases, scientists in civilian and military employ, entire organizations supplying troops... yeah, I think we can manage it. There is no bottleneck, either. The Stargate can ferry material far faster than 304 construction can expend it.


As for the suggestion of replicators, are those the things that were kicking the Asguard's ass for some time. Do you really want to go down that road?We can build them to shut off whenever we want, act however we want, and with whatever knowledge we require them to have. It's a lot safer than it looks. That IOA guy in the movie was just an idiot.

nx01a
October 9th, 2010, 10:44 AM
IOA people are always idiots. Except Woolsey, of course.

Womble
October 9th, 2010, 11:56 AM
What do you think our scuffle with the Goa'uld was called? That's one reason why we got ships in the air fairly quickly. Ask any engineer, and they'll tell you that once you have the knowledge and facilities for something, building it is almost child's play and can be done fairly quickly if needed. Earth has the infrastructure in place now, and they have the knowledge, and they have a lot of skilled and knowledgeable people.
Earth has been under permanent threat of destruction throughout the series, and so far the rate of 304 production has been approximately one ship per year.

Even when you have all the know-how, building expensive and complex weapons systems is never child's play, especially if you need to keep them secret from the entire planet.

Think about the challenges Earth is facing here:

The production capacity is very limited. You can only expand your workforce so much before too much information starts leaking out; the more people are in on the secret, the harder it is to keep it secret. Independent contractors must be kept out of the loop too, so you need lots of them, each working on a part of the project too small to explain the whole. You need to change them regularly, too, otherwise some smart alec will eventually put two and two together. All that slows the manufacture down.

The same applies to the off-world mining of trinium, naquadah and other materials not found on Earth.

Delivery of extraterrestrial materials is a challenge as well. Earth has only one Stargate that is used for everything. Its size is limited, as is the time it can stay open and available for cargo transfer. The SGC underground facility is not well suited for receiving, storing and transporting tons of materials. To our knowledge, Earth does not operate a fleet of high-capacity cargo spaceships.

Then there's the question of funding the whole thing. A Gerald R. Ford-class aircraft carrier costs $9 billion to produce. One can safely assume that building its spaceship equivalent based on alien tech is going to cost several times that, so let's say the building of a 304 costs $25 billion per unit as a modest estimate. The annual procurement budget of the US military is $140 billion; building two 304s a year would take up 30% of that amount and leave the US army stripped bare for all its planet-side needs. Outsourcing production elsewhere isn't really an option because no one can afford it; for Britain or France to build its own 304 would mean dedicating at least half of their entire military budgets to that purpose. Moreover, such gigantic expenditures are very hard to conceal. You need to create a believable paper trail that explains to the Congress and the public where the money is going. This is no small challenge by itself.


I would disagree with this. From what I've seen, building a Hatak is a long process, possibly as long as building a 304. Apophis took time to get two ships, and we've never really seen a large Hatak fleet, other than Anubis, but he had most of the system lords behind him. I get the impression there aren't that many Hataks, probably no more than 50. And assuming the LA can even build those ships, it'll take them awhile.
The Goa'uld had multiple shipyards, lots of mining facilities for necessary materials, a large slave workforce and nothing to hide.

Also, we have never really seen a System Lord's entire fleet. Apophis came to Earth with only two ships because he didn't see Earth as a significant threat. Chances are the System Lords did not dedicate all of their ships to a single action; they had to have additional Ha'taks patrolling their territory at all times, suppressing rebellions on enslaved planets, skirmishing with other System Lords for contested solar systems etc.

Shai Hulud
October 9th, 2010, 12:11 PM
My bets are on Simeon having intel on the forthcoming attack.

kymeric
October 9th, 2010, 12:37 PM
Everyone is forgetting the fact that we have access to the asgard's entire 300,000 year library with holographic interface. I'm sure there are quite efficient defense satellite instructions buried in those archives. Plus there are asgard scanning satellites which could be used to detect and scan away bombs detected anywhere on the planet.

That completely ends the entire threat posed by any military force on Earth. If the fictional coalition of nations on earth wanted to completely pacify the galaxy it could.

And YOU are forgetting the LA has the same access to that database thanks to its moles. O.O

Its funny Sg1 made the same mistake with the LA that they did with the System Lords. They killed the incompetent leaders which were then replaced by competent increasingly more dangerous leaders. They should have negotiated with the LA, made some agreement to leave us and our allies alone and we wont interfere. Now we gotta fight.

Descended
October 9th, 2010, 01:06 PM
And YOU are forgetting the LA has the same access to that database thanks to its moles. O.O

Its funny Sg1 made the same mistake with the LA that they did with the System Lords. They killed the incompetent leaders which were then replaced by competent increasingly more dangerous leaders. They should have negotiated with the LA, made some agreement to leave us and our allies alone and we wont interfere. Now we gotta fight.

How could the moles possibly have given them that information? The entire knowledge base of a race as old and advanced as the Asgard?!?! You couldn't possibly leak the entire knowledge base of our planet (imagine trying to smuggle the entire internet and all written material for the entire planet. Eric Schmidt, the CEO of Google, the world’s largest index of the Internet, estimated the size of the Internet alone at roughly 5 million terabytes of data.) The Asgard have to have orders of magnitude more information than that just given the length of time their civilization has existed versus ours. That is not something Telford could smuggle out on a USB thumb drive.

PG15
October 9th, 2010, 01:44 PM
That's about all they can do. Land some cloaked cargo ships, plant some bombs, and blow some low-key stuff up. But doing so will only rile a beehive and bring the full force of Earth against the LA. As a leader in the LA, that's not something I'd like right now. Besides, ask Japan how well their surprise attack worked for them.

I don't call entire cities low-key.

And "Earth's full force" doesn't seem like a big deal at all. Yes, we have half-a-dozen very powerful ships and Atlantis, but using them to cover a good deal of the entire galaxy? Even if the LA isn't a match for them, they can easily just evade our attacks. They have a whole galaxy to play in, after all. It's hard for me to imagine it as a total slaughter of LA forces; it'll be more like a neverending hide-and-seek game.

Subversion showed that Earth doesn't know the location of every LA outpost. Who knows how many planets the LA has under their control that we don't know about that they can easily hide on?

Besides, if the LA do decide to take out Earth, then I'd think they'd be prepared for the backlash, at least on some level (i.e. they're prepared to run).

morbosfist
October 9th, 2010, 02:12 PM
Earth has been under permanent threat of destruction throughout the series, and so far the rate of 304 production has been approximately one ship per year.

Even when you have all the know-how, building expensive and complex weapons systems is never child's play, especially if you need to keep them secret from the entire planet.Yet they have their production outsourced among dozens of companies, from aerospace to medicine, and still keep it secret. A fleet of 302s and six 304s in about as many years, and no doubt more on the way.


Think about the challenges Earth is facing here:

The production capacity is very limited. You can only expand your workforce so much before too much information starts leaking out; the more people are in on the secret, the harder it is to keep it secret. Independent contractors must be kept out of the loop too, so you need lots of them, each working on a part of the project too small to explain the whole. You need to change them regularly, too, otherwise some smart alec will eventually put two and two together. All that slows the manufacture down.Not enough for it to make much of a difference. The companies aren't being rotated. Colson Industries is turning out parts for the 302s, for example. Rotating production isn't necessary. They only have one piece of the puzzle. You rotate them, that's more pieces and they start getting wise.


The same applies to the off-world mining of trinium, naquadah and other materials not found on Earth.

Delivery of extraterrestrial materials is a challenge as well. Earth has only one Stargate that is used for everything. Its size is limited, as is the time it can stay open and available for cargo transfer. The SGC underground facility is not well suited for receiving, storing and transporting tons of materials. To our knowledge, Earth does not operate a fleet of high-capacity cargo spaceships.This is plain silly. It can stay open for 38 minutes, and there is nothing keeping us from just dialling again and again to deliver supplies. The SGC underground facility has a giant tunnel right above the Stargate. Easy cargo lift. We've transported entire 302s, a small rocket, and other huge things through with just a little disassembling. Cargo retrieval is simple.


Then there's the question of funding the whole thing. A Gerald R. Ford-class aircraft carrier costs $9 billion to produce. One can safely assume that building its spaceship equivalent based on alien tech is going to cost several times that, so let's say the building of a 304 costs $25 billion per unit as a modest estimate. The annual procurement budget of the US military is $140 billion; building two 304s a year would take up 30% of that amount and leave the US army stripped bare for all its planet-side needs. Outsourcing production elsewhere isn't really an option because no one can afford it; for Britain or France to build its own 304 would mean dedicating at least half of their entire military budgets to that purpose. Moreover, such gigantic expenditures are very hard to conceal. You need to create a believable paper trail that explains to the Congress and the public where the money is going. This is no small challenge by itself.A lot of that is the cost of materials. Materials which we do not have to buy. Materials which this planet does not even have. Cost goes down really quick. Paper trails are easy for the government. They can hide people, they can hide some line items in the budget.


The Goa'uld had multiple shipyards, lots of mining facilities for necessary materials, a large slave workforce and nothing to hide.

Also, we have never really seen a System Lord's entire fleet. Apophis came to Earth with only two ships because he didn't see Earth as a significant threat. Chances are the System Lords did not dedicate all of their ships to a single action; they had to have additional Ha'taks patrolling their territory at all times, suppressing rebellions on enslaved planets, skirmishing with other System Lords for contested solar systems etc.We have seen a System Lord's entire fleet. Ba'al controlled the combined forces of the System Lords in Continuum. Very impressive, but not unmanageable.

More to the point, what the Goa'uld controlled does not equate to what the Lucian Alliance controls now. It is unlikely they would have multiple shipyards, if any at all, or that they would be able to duplicate the vessels anyway.


And YOU are forgetting the LA has the same access to that database thanks to its moles. O.OAs pointed out, impossible.


I don't call entire cities low-key.

And "Earth's full force" doesn't seem like a big deal at all. Yes, we have half-a-dozen very powerful ships and Atlantis, but using them to cover a good deal of the entire galaxy? Even if the LA isn't a match for them, they can easily just evade our attacks. They have a whole galaxy to play in, after all. It's hard for me to imagine it as a total slaughter of LA forces; it'll be more like a neverending hide-and-seek game.

Subversion showed that Earth doesn't know the location of every LA outpost. Who knows how many planets the LA has under their control that we don't know about that they can easily hide on?

Besides, if the LA do decide to take out Earth, then I'd think they'd be prepared for the backlash, at least on some level (i.e. they're prepared to run).Earth hasn't bothered hunting people down so long as we're safe. If the Alliance was driven to ground, the problem is solved. Soon as they pop their head up we step on it.

PG15
October 9th, 2010, 02:20 PM
Earth hasn't bothered hunting people down so long as we're safe. If the Alliance was driven to ground, the problem is solved. Soon as they pop their head up we step on it.

I'm sorry, that's too vague of an argument for me. How do we "step on their heads" if we don't know where they are? How do we "step on their heads" when they have a lot more "heads" than we do ships?

They don't have to stay on planets, of course. They can take a hatak and just park it in the middle of space and that'd be that. If they bring a Stargate with them, all the better; they don't have to move their ship at all if they need resources.

morbosfist
October 9th, 2010, 02:31 PM
I'm sorry, that's too vague of an argument for me. How do we "step on their heads" if we don't know where they are? How do we "step on their heads" when they have a lot more "heads" than we do ships?

They don't have to stay on planets, of course. They can take a hatak and just park it in the middle of space and that'd be that. If they bring a Stargate with them, all the better; they don't have to move their ship at all if they need resources.Stargates only work in orbit around a planet. They'd have to keep moving, and would have to be able to determine their position if they did it. Fairly simple, I would think, but with these folks you don't know.

It's simple, really. The Alliance survives by subjugating others. Break the back of that operation, and they'll consume themselves. This isn't some tightly-knit organization. It's a disparate group of individuals who are drawn together solely by their greed. As we've seen, failure here breeds treachery, treachery results in chaos, and chaos eliminates the threat.

If the Lucian Alliance decided to start something, they'd damn sure have to finish it quickly. These people aren't patient. If they started getting hit hard, dissension would arise, and the leaders would start taking risks to try to quell that. Those risks would be exploited (cause we're good at that) and they'd further fall out of favor. Eventually one would get knocked off, they'd change focus, and at best would not want to provoke us further. If they do, rinse and repeat. They couldn't win a war with us.

PG15
October 9th, 2010, 02:41 PM
Stargates only work in orbit around a planet. They'd have to keep moving, and would have to be able to determine their position if they did it. Fairly simple, I would think, but with these folks you don't know.

It's simple, really. The Alliance survives by subjugating others. Break the back of that operation, and they'll consume themselves. This isn't some tightly-knit organization. It's a disparate group of individuals who are drawn together solely by their greed. As we've seen, failure here breeds treachery, treachery results in chaos, and chaos eliminates the threat.

If the Lucian Alliance decided to start something, they'd damn sure have to finish it quickly. These people aren't patient. If they started getting hit hard, dissension would arise, and the leaders would start taking risks to try to quell that. Those risks would be exploited (cause we're good at that) and they'd further fall out of favor. Eventually one would get knocked off, they'd change focus, and at best would not want to provoke us further. If they do, rinse and repeat. They couldn't win a war with us.

...Unless they finish it quickly, like you said. ;)

But good point on the dissention stuff; time and again I have to remind myself that they aren't a coherent whole. At the end of the day though, it's about what they want.

Do they ALL want to take out Earth or is it just their crazy leader at the moment? If it's the leader it'll probably fail; all we have to do is take him out and chances are the rest will back down, as their hearts were never in it in the first place. However, if they all want Earth out of the picture, then by taking out the leader we merely end up with dozens/hundreds of smaller, stealthier forces that want Earth gone, and that could prove dangerous.

FYI, Stargates can work anywhere as long as their position is calibrated to the rest of the network; it doesn't have to be in orbit of a planet; otherwise the gate bridge would've never worked.

morbosfist
October 9th, 2010, 02:45 PM
If they wanted to finish it quickly, it'd take a lot of effort, more than I suspect they'd be willing to put forth.

Look at Netan. He at least knew that messing with Earth was bad. He was rightly afraid, but was driven into a corner by his own Seconds. These people know we beat the Goa'uld. They know we beat the Ori. That's gotta cause some pause or they'd be bolder in their attacks. This ninth chevron business is probably the only thing making them want us gone as badly as they do now.

tinerin
October 9th, 2010, 07:52 PM
If they wanted to finish it quickly, it'd take a lot of effort, more than I suspect they'd be willing to put forth.

If the they wanted to finish it quickly, all it'd take is three cloaked cargo ships with naquadriah enhanced nukes. One on the SGC, another on the Pentagon (Homeworld Security), and another on Area 51. The fallout from that attack would probably kill most of the world's population except for maybe Africa, who would make perfect soldiers for the Lucian Alliance. The fact is, that Earth is actually very poorly protected and with the exception of Anubis, who was just arrogant and got whooped by some super Ancient tech, the planet's biggest threats (Goauld, Ori and Wraith) had the disadvantage that they needed as much of Earth's population alive. The Lucian Alliance don't have this problem.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 9th, 2010, 07:57 PM
Morbo,

Is SGC using slave labor to extract, transport, refine, and manufacture components for 304s? If not the materials cost is still there even if we "own" the locations where they are being extracted.

Going back to the replicators. Are you saying those safeguards weren't built into the replicators that where overrunning the Asguard upon who's tech and wisdom the defense of the Earth now depends?

morbosfist
October 9th, 2010, 08:16 PM
If the they wanted to finish it quickly, all it'd take is three cloaked cargo ships with naquadriah enhanced nukes. One on the SGC, another on the Pentagon (Homeworld Security), and another on Area 51. The fallout from that attack would probably kill most of the world's population except for maybe Africa, who would make perfect soldiers for the Lucian Alliance. The fact is, that Earth is actually very poorly protected and with the exception of Anubis, who was just arrogant and got whooped by some super Ancient tech, the planet's biggest threats (Goauld, Ori and Wraith) had the disadvantage that they needed as much of Earth's population alive. The Lucian Alliance don't have this problem.The Lucian Alliance, far as we know, does not have nukes. Nukes are human tech, always have been. The Lucian Alliance uses stolen Goa'uld tech, and nukes aren't in very big supply there. They'd have to use naquadah bombs, which don't pack quite the punch of our larger weapons (five miles for the big ones as I recall), and as far as we've seen are "clean" explosives.

Anubis wasn't arrogant, he was deus ex machina'd. He came with an entire fleet, knew enough to force our hand before invading, and spent every effort to make sure we couldn't beat him. He just couldn't manage it. Nevertheless, we beat them and the Alliance knows it.

The Ori did not need Earth alive. They wanted Earth alive, but they're a very flexible people. Sterilizing the planet was a viable option, one they tried no less than twice. Again, beaten.

The Wraith are a non-component. The Alliance don't know about them.


Is SGC using slave labor to extract, transport, refine, and manufacture components for 304s? If not the materials cost is still there even if we "own" the locations where they are being extracted.

Going back to the replicators. Are you saying those safeguards weren't built into the replicators that where overrunning the Asguard upon who's tech and wisdom the defense of the Earth now depends?It's only the cost of their soldiers doing the mining, and we have far better mining techniques. Hell, we have Unas working for free. Can't beat that price.

Going back to the Replicators, of course they weren't built with safeguards when they invaded the Asgard. They weren't built by the Asgard. They were built by an android who made them act like they do. Likewise with the IOA guy, who made an uncontrollable Replicator and unleashed on the ship like a moron. Contrast Atlantis, where we have made a fully-loyal Replicator to exacting specifications. Yes, it would be a double-edged sword, but all you have to do is program in a kill command.

Descended
October 9th, 2010, 08:23 PM
Morbo,
Going back to the replicators. Are you saying those safeguards weren't built into the replicators that where overrunning the Asguard upon who's tech and wisdom the defense of the Earth now depends?

Nope, the only thing programmed into those replicators were commands by Reese to a) not eat her b) eat everything else c) protect themselves d) make baby replicators

The MW and Ida replicators were not programmed with any safeguards and thus they went out of control. The Asurans (being Ancient designed replicators) were equipped with safeguards and were unable to attack the Lanteans even though they flat out hated them. It was only when Rodney started screwing with them and forgot to lock their base-code that they were able to attack the survivors on the Tria (Return I & II) Fran was programmed by Rodney and she worked perfectly, even suggesting better ways to kill the other replicators.

With enough caution they could be made safe, and it wouldn't really be more dangerous than genetically engineering something, since you can never be 100% sure that it won't have unforeseen consequences in the outside world.

Vanek26
October 9th, 2010, 08:46 PM
With enough caution they could be made safe, and it wouldn't really be more dangerous than genetically engineering something, since you can never be 100% sure that it won't have unforeseen consequences in the outside world.

Which is why the zombies are gonna kill us all.

Still, from a outside perspective, I'd be annoyed to see replicators again. And from the storyline of the show, I'd say the Tau'ri would only do that as a last ditch weapon, with Rodney putting a ton of safeguards in.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 9th, 2010, 08:50 PM
Morbo,

So, we're going to commit our ground forces to mining rather than defense? Further, that doesn't address transport, refining, and manufacturing costs.

morbosfist
October 9th, 2010, 08:54 PM
So, we're going to commit our ground forces to mining rather than defense? Further, that doesn't address transport, refining, and manufacturing costs.You're just going to go to extremes for every single little thing now? Don't be absurd. Believe it or not, it is possible to have different groups assigned to different tasks. Transport, refining, and manufacturing is a non-issue. We have the facilities and infrastructure to do all those things already.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 9th, 2010, 09:09 PM
Morbo,

As others have pointed out Earth has been under rather serious threat of invasion for some time and the best we've been able to do is one 304 a year? What is going to change now? We've been dragging our feet about building a large fleet of 304s, why?

morbosfist
October 9th, 2010, 09:14 PM
As others have pointed out Earth has been under rather serious threat of invasion for some time and the best we've been able to do is one 304 a year? What is going to change now? We've been dragging our feet about building a large fleet of 304s, why?Until recently, Earth has had a planetary defense that can kill an entire fleet in a few minutes. In fact, we technically still do if Atlantis is still on Earth. Just move the drones to Atlantis, problem solved. Either way, the fact remains that production can always move faster. It isn't now, as far as we know (a large portion of the SGCs budget was going to be allocated to 304 construction in season 9 of SG1), because there hasn't been a pressing need. And given the inferior ships the Alliance flies, there arguably still isn't.

Wayston
October 10th, 2010, 02:26 AM
it would be cool if they managed to come across some Ori ships left in the Milky Way after the Ori followers pulled out, the LA wouldn't be able to repair or even run them long term but they could use them in a surprise offensive on earth to punch a hole through earth's defences in a major invasion

unfortunately such cool things are bound not to happen :(

Kanten
October 10th, 2010, 03:32 AM
it would be cool if they managed to come across some Ori ships left in the Milky Way after the Ori followers pulled out, the LA wouldn't be able to repair or even run them long term but they could use them in a surprise offensive on earth to punch a hole through earth's defences in a major invasion

Aren't Ori ships practically useless without a Prior?

General Jumper One
October 10th, 2010, 06:19 AM
Aren't Ori ships practically useless without a Prior?

no, Carter found a way to bypass the Prior

Descended
October 10th, 2010, 08:09 AM
it would be cool if they managed to come across some Ori ships left in the Milky Way after the Ori followers pulled out, the LA wouldn't be able to repair or even run them long term but they could use them in a surprise offensive on earth to punch a hole through earth's defences in a major invasion

unfortunately such cool things are bound not to happen :(

Ori ships aren't a threat anymore, the Odyssey with Asgard weapons engaged several of them in Unending and destroyed them pretty readily, it was only in trouble because the Priors could track the Asgard core and Odyssey couldn't recover between battles since they were constantly getting pounced on. Even in the LA found a few Ori ships the new F304s could take them out with ease.

Earth has become such a bad-ass that it makes absolutely zero sense for the LA to attack us, since we don't actively hunt them. Earth has proven time and again that we don't really care what people are doing out in the galaxy unless it threatens us or they attack us, so we would be perfectly happy to sit back and let the LA rule a few planets and we would leave them in peace unless they started planning an attack on us.

Why would anyone pick a fight with Earth? We defeated directly or indirectly Ra, Nirrti, Cronus, Apophis, Heru'ur, Ba'al, Sokar, Imhotep, a partially Ascended Anubis and his Asgard upgraded fleet (from Thor's brain), the MW replicators, the human-form Replicators (5th and Replicarter), Ba'als clones, the Trust, the Priors, and entire galaxy of Ascended beings (Ori), another Ascended being in Adria, the Wraith, the Genii, the Pegasus Replicators (Asurans) and the LA in every other engagement except Icarus. We have the F304s, Atlantis, and the Antarctic weapons platform (assuming they could replace the chair, either from a possible spare on Atlantis or another Ancient outpost or vessel) and the entire knowledge base of both the Ancients and the Asgard.

Why would they attack us!?! The writers better give a damn good reason other that "because they are evil." They aren't stupid.


no, Carter found a way to bypass the Prior

With the help of an Ascended Merlin living in a Prior Daniel's brain, probably not something that is easy to figure out otherwise.

tainor
October 10th, 2010, 12:13 PM
I did not read the entire thread, but I am going to say it. If push comes to shove, all that Earth has to do is go to the Pegasus galaxy, and get the Control Chair from Atlantis Sister city. This way we have our Antarctica outpost back an drone platform working perfectly, treat minimal.

Tain :thor:

Kaiphantom
October 10th, 2010, 03:11 PM
I don't call entire cities low-key.

Tactically speaking, they are. Blowing up an Earth City or two, even if they are New York and London, won't accomplish much besides ticking Earth off.


And "Earth's full force" doesn't seem like a big deal at all. Yes, we have half-a-dozen very powerful ships and Atlantis, but using them to cover a good deal of the entire galaxy? Even if the LA isn't a match for them, they can easily just evade our attacks. They have a whole galaxy to play in, after all. It's hard for me to imagine it as a total slaughter of LA forces; it'll be more like a neverending hide-and-seek game.

Subversion showed that Earth doesn't know the location of every LA outpost. Who knows how many planets the LA has under their control that we don't know about that they can easily hide on?

No, we wouldn't be able to wipe them all out. But we could very well infiltrate the planets where they draw support from and free those people. We can get intel on where their ships and shipyards are(if any) and take them out. Essentially, we'd cause the LA a world of hurt and make it very clear, "Keep your **** out of our backyard, because we can and will make things very difficult for you if you intervene."

But you actually made one of my points for you. Space is vast, therefore there is no reason for the LA to attack Earth when there are plenty of other easier planets with resources out there. So, again, the writers need to give me a reason.


Besides, if the LA do decide to take out Earth, then I'd think they'd be prepared for the backlash, at least on some level (i.e. they're prepared to run).

Or they're just dumb as hell.

Wayston
October 11th, 2010, 12:40 AM
Ori ships aren't a threat anymore, the Odyssey with Asgard weapons engaged several of them in Unending and destroyed them pretty readily, it was only in trouble because the Priors could track the Asgard core and Odyssey couldn't recover between battles since they were constantly getting pounced on. Even in the LA found a few Ori ships the new F304s could take them out with ease.

Earth has become such a bad-ass that it makes absolutely zero sense for the LA to attack us, since we don't actively hunt them. Earth has proven time and again that we don't really care what people are doing out in the galaxy unless it threatens us or they attack us, so we would be perfectly happy to sit back and let the LA rule a few planets and we would leave them in peace unless they started planning an attack on us.

Why would anyone pick a fight with Earth? We defeated directly or indirectly Ra, Nirrti, Cronus, Apophis, Heru'ur, Ba'al, Sokar, Imhotep, a partially Ascended Anubis and his Asgard upgraded fleet (from Thor's brain), the MW replicators, the human-form Replicators (5th and Replicarter), Ba'als clones, the Trust, the Priors, and entire galaxy of Ascended beings (Ori), another Ascended being in Adria, the Wraith, the Genii, the Pegasus Replicators (Asurans) and the LA in every other engagement except Icarus. We have the F304s, Atlantis, and the Antarctic weapons platform (assuming they could replace the chair, either from a possible spare on Atlantis or another Ancient outpost or vessel) and the entire knowledge base of both the Ancients and the Asgard.

Why would they attack us!?! The writers better give a damn good reason other that "because they are evil." They aren't stupid.



With the help of an Ascended Merlin living in a Prior Daniel's brain, probably not something that is easy to figure out otherwise.

all of this can be easily swept aside by a good writer with creative ideas. Say there are Ori priors left in the Milky Way who are no longer backed by the power of the Ori but still have significant capabilities due to being evolutionary advanced humans (somewhere in between ordinary humans and Adria's level) and they side with the Lucian alliance in the hopes of restarting the Ori society (with in the long run themselves at the top as ascended beings). The ancients wouldn't lift a finger to help earth this time and even if earth ships might be more powerful than an ori battleship pound per pound, there would still be a significant difference in numbers and the ori priors could bolster the regular LA fleet too.

I'm just thinking out loud here, but it sounds interesting to me.

morbosfist
October 11th, 2010, 12:43 AM
all of this can be easily swept aside by a good writer with creative ideas. Say there are Ori priors left in the Milky Way who are no longer backed by the power of the Ori but still have significant capabilities due to being evolutionary advanced humans (somewhere in between ordinary humans and Adria's level) and they side with the Lucian alliance.Why wouldn't Stargate Command make sure they were all sent home? There's a subspace link connecting them. They'd know if one stayed behind. Either way, without a ship (which the SGC would NOT allow to be left abandoned), a Prior could be neutralized easily once they knew he was around.

garhkal
October 11th, 2010, 01:02 AM
We'd be able to tell the difference. Alien weapons aren't the same as human ones.

Well since we see them using earth like weapons when the stormed the Destiny, what is to stop them using earth based ones when they attack earth?



Netan runs the Lucian Alliance. He could have committed more.[quote]

True dat...

[QUOTE=morbosfist;11968605]
It takes a year to build a ship, and that was by the standards of common Earth manufacturing. Now we have Asgard tech. And if they had the kind of resources to commit to that, Earth wouldn't be a threat.

It seemed like it took longer for the Prometheus and first 2 dadelus class.



Because in that same episode we dialled quicker than Sokar.

Eventually yes.. I will give you that.



Right up until we got tired of it and monitored 24/7. Strategy fails.

No it does not. We have not seen any of our sensors (well unless atlantis says around on earth, which the developers have said won't happen) cover the entire planet. AND yes nothing is stopping them monitor 24/7, but that ties up more resources and shows the LA they have worried us.



One, that was Vala, and she hadn't even heard of us. It was coincidence. Telford was only stealing Icarus data. Rush was in his mind; he'd know.

I suppose rush would know if he stole more, but until they show that, i am willing to give Telford the benefit of the doubt he could have stolen more info.



Neither of which has changed from then to now.
Except one is larger and better organized. So how is that NOT changing it.



If he took leave, he wouldn't be working period. It would be even more suspicious.

I;ll give you that point..



It's like a land land vs a cell phone.

And both work to allow you to talk at great distances... just one is mobile.



Which would only go to prove that the Alliance can't take a 304 that's fully armed.

In low numbers yes.. Remember though, we both agree the Phoneix (last man) was taken by large numbers of wraiths.. so it can be done.



When your enemy doesn't have the same ability, it's a lot easier. There's no evidence that anyone but the Goa'uld have the knowledge to build their ships.

I still think that an org the size/power the LA seems to now have, has the capacity to build some ships....



Mitchell was given the reports because he was going to lead SG1.

I still think that anyone else in the SG org could read all other mission reports.. BUT for now i will give you this point.



The SGC already runs a few dozen teams at any one time. The gate doesn't need to be active constantly. Scheduled daily supply drops would be simple.

I see the amt of material needing to be gathered for building just ONE ship as taking up a lot of time of the gate, to be sufficient in duration to monopolize its use when you expand that to 3 or more ships which some of you think we would be building at once...


The production capacity is very limited. You can only expand your workforce so much before too much information starts leaking out; the more people are in on the secret, the harder it is to keep it secret. Independent contractors must be kept out of the loop too, so you need lots of them, each working on a part of the project too small to explain the whole. You need to change them regularly, too, otherwise some smart alec will eventually put two and two together. All that slows the manufacture down.

Which we have already seen happen twice.. Once with the replicator getting out (Sga) and again with that guy who wanted to kidnap Mccay to cure his daughter. I might even include the wheel chair bound guy in sga season (or was it 5) who kidnapped carter to try and learn about getting a symbiot to heal him..


Moreover, such gigantic expenditures are very hard to conceal. You need to create a believable paper trail that explains to the Congress and the public where the money is going. This is no small challenge by itself.

Which iirc is how that reporter chick learned of the prometheus.


And YOU are forgetting the LA has the same access to that database thanks to its moles. O.O

I doubt that very much...


More to the point, what the Goa'uld controlled does not equate to what the Lucian Alliance controls now. It is unlikely they would have multiple shipyards, if any at all, or that they would be able to duplicate the vessels anyway.

True, but it is imo a safe assumption that they did at least get some of them.


The Lucian Alliance, far as we know, does not have nukes. Nukes are human tech, always have been.

WRONG. The Genii had them.. And since the LA have set up shop down here, i cannot see any reason to suggest they could not get their hands on some (russia!!!)


no, Carter found a way to bypass the Prior

And if the LA scientists are anything to see (how easily they operated the destny) i can see them duplicating that feat.


a Prior could be neutralized easily once they knew he was around.


Thats assuming we get close enough to him to turn that device on...

morbosfist
October 11th, 2010, 01:22 AM
Well since we see them using earth like weapons when the stormed the Destiny, what is to stop them using earth based ones when they attack earth?The fact that they'd be sacrificing their advantage to do so.


It seemed like it took longer for the Prometheus and first 2 dadelus class.Mass-production is a lot easier than research and development.


No it does not. We have not seen any of our sensors (well unless atlantis says around on earth, which the developers have said won't happen) cover the entire planet. AND yes nothing is stopping them monitor 24/7, but that ties up more resources and shows the LA they have worried us.Wouldn't be hard to build Earth-based sensor arrays or a satellite network.


I suppose rush would know if he stole more, but until they show that, i am willing to give Telford the benefit of the doubt he could have stolen more info.It would only work to a point. The fact that he hasn't been caught indicates his theft could not have gone beyond his own department.


Except one is larger and better organized. So how is that NOT changing it.It's not changing because the Alliance isn't any larger or better organized than it was at the start.


And both work to allow you to talk at great distances... just one is mobile.Which is a big difference.


In low numbers yes.. Remember though, we both agree the Phoneix (last man) was taken by large numbers of wraiths.. so it can be done.Because it was boxed in and couldn't run. Remember, hive ships are on the order of 10 times larger than a 304. A Ha'tak is maybe twice the volume without being significantly wider.


I still think that an org the size/power the LA seems to now have, has the capacity to build some ships....Assuming they have the shipyards and expertise to do so. These aren't things the Goa'uld share with slaves.


I see the amt of material needing to be gathered for building just ONE ship as taking up a lot of time of the gate, to be sufficient in duration to monopolize its use when you expand that to 3 or more ships which some of you think we would be building at once...Resources could quickly pass through the gate. It wouldn't monopolize gate use at all.


Which we have already seen happen twice.. Once with the replicator getting out (Sga) and again with that guy who wanted to kidnap Mccay to cure his daughter. I might even include the wheel chair bound guy in sga season (or was it 5) who kidnapped carter to try and learn about getting a symbiot to heal him..Maybourne was responsible for that last one. The Replicator was military funded (someone was in on it). Devlin is a valid point.


Which iirc is how that reporter chick learned of the prometheus.No. Frank Simmons (or his flunkies, same thing really) tipped her off.


True, but it is imo a safe assumption that they did at least get some of them.I'll grant this is possible.


WRONG. The Genii had them.. And since the LA have set up shop down here, i cannot see any reason to suggest they could not get their hands on some (russia!!!)The Genii had to make them, and they developed them as a matter of course (scientific development naturally gravitates along that kind of path). The Lucian Alliance went from medieval to spacefaring automatically. There's also no clear evidence the guns are human-made.


And if the LA scientists are anything to see (how easily they operated the destny) i can see them duplicating that feat.They managed to get the doors to work. They were powerless to beat Rush. They can work a console. They don't have the skill to outdo someone familiar with the tech. Carter had help from Prior Daniel, so no Alliance fool is going to duplicate that.


Thats assuming we get close enough to him to turn that device on...It works by sound. Don't have to get all that close. The Prior is useless the second he gets close enough to start using his powers.

Wayston
October 11th, 2010, 03:10 AM
Why wouldn't Stargate Command make sure they were all sent home? There's a subspace link connecting them. They'd know if one stayed behind. Either way, without a ship (which the SGC would NOT allow to be left abandoned), a Prior could be neutralized easily once they knew he was around.

I don't see anything here that would preclude the storyline I was describing.

J_schinderlin56
October 11th, 2010, 04:53 PM
Stargate command beat the Goa'uld, Replicators (Twice-MW/Pegasus), and the Ori. We will make dog meat of the L.A.

nx01a
October 11th, 2010, 06:19 PM
Stargate command beat the Goa'uld, Replicators (Twice-MW/Pegasus), and the Ori. We will make dog meat of the L.A.My main reason for thinking that the Lucian Alliance could be a real threat is that they're only human: devious, ingenious and all the other traits that have allowed Earth to survive and defeat vastly superior enemies. Earth isn't fighting some alien being here, they're up against themselves.
We have met the enemy and he is us.;)

morbosfist
October 11th, 2010, 06:27 PM
My main reason for thinking that the Lucian Alliance could be a real threat is that they're only human: devious, ingenious and all the other traits that have allowed Earth to survive and defeat vastly superior enemies. Earth isn't fighting some alien being here, they're up against themselves. ;)The Genii were human, we beat them.

PG15
October 11th, 2010, 07:25 PM
Well, the Genii were pretty low-tech.

The LA has a lot more toys to play with.

morbosfist
October 11th, 2010, 07:45 PM
Well, the Genii were pretty low-tech.

The LA has a lot more toys to play with.My basic point is that being human isn't an automatic plus. Earth's unique mindset is what kept winning us battles (that and plenty of Deus Ex Machina).

General Jumper One
October 11th, 2010, 09:51 PM
Well, the Genii were pretty low-tech.

The LA has a lot more toys to play with.

low tech societies don't usually build atomic bombs

nx01a
October 11th, 2010, 09:59 PM
The Genii were human, we beat them.
My basic point is that being human isn't an automatic plus. Earth's unique mindset is what kept winning us battles (that and plenty of Deus Ex Machina).Considering that SGU wants to be different, having Earth get owned by an 'inferior' force would be different. Earth military mindset may have helped us against the Goa'uld et al, but the Lucian Alliance's gangster mindset might just be enough to give us a real run for our money. That and a few dozen ships...
And the Genii also gave us a very good run for our money without ships. ;)

PG15
October 11th, 2010, 10:20 PM
low tech societies don't usually build atomic bombs

I mean low-tech compared to the Goa'uld, LA, and other galactic powers.

garhkal
October 12th, 2010, 03:59 AM
While they maybe low tech, i think they have shown remarkable adaptability for higher tech.

danielhartley91
October 13th, 2010, 10:15 AM
Advanced weapons suddenly lose their advantage when your enemy has more numbers

that is true! look at the ancient's war against the wraith