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View Full Version : Hammond vs. Goa'uld Ships



Snowman37
October 3rd, 2010, 03:19 PM
In SG-1, the Goa'uld pyramid ships (name?) were easilly destroyed by Ori ships. In "Unending," the Oddyssey got upgraded by the Asgard and can now easily blast away an Ori ship in a one-on-one fight. In Atlantis, the Daedalus and Apollo got the same upgrades. Both ships went from barely surviving Wraith hives to blasting them with ease. In Universe's first episode, "Air, Part 1," we see the Hammond take fire from three Goa'uld pyramid ships. Instead of blasting them away with ease, Hammond focuses on the death gliders. Er... what?

NinjaSnake
October 3rd, 2010, 04:19 PM
Thats just one of the things wrong with SGU. 304s can easily take care of Ori and Wraith ships but they can't get rid of a Ha'tak ship. It makes no sense what so ever.

Also in SG1 the Lucian Alliance was a joke pretty much. I mean SG1 took care of them no problem and now in SGU they are a big threat?

First of all the Lucian Alliance should not have even gotten close to the Icarus planet but I'll ignore that. So lets say they did get there without anyone seeing till they jumped out of Hyper Space. It was pretty clear right away they were not friendly. The Hammond should have gotten rid of them right away. I don't really remember how many Ha'tak vessels there were but the 304 could have easily gotten rid of them in a few seconds.

jelgate
October 3rd, 2010, 04:36 PM
Thats just one of the things wrong with SGU. 304s can easily take care of Ori and Wraith ships but they can't get rid of a Ha'tak ship. It makes no sense what so ever.

Also in SG1 the Lucian Alliance was a joke pretty much. I mean SG1 took care of them no problem and now in SGU they are a big threat?

First of all the Lucian Alliance should not have even gotten close to the Icarus planet but I'll ignore that. So lets say they did get there without anyone seeing till they jumped out of Hyper Space. It was pretty clear right away they were not friendly. The Hammond should have gotten rid of them right away. I don't really remember how many Ha'tak vessels there were but the 304 could have easily gotten rid of them in a few seconds.

Its makes plenty of sense when you remember the Hammond was rushed into service due to the events of EATG. It wasn't ready for combat

NinjaSnake
October 3rd, 2010, 04:48 PM
It had it's weapons though.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 3rd, 2010, 05:05 PM
As I've said in the other thread perhaps the LA has been working on upgrades of their own. Earth having ships that can PWNNNN ever other ship in the Galaxy doesn't make for terribly compelling story telling. As for the LA finding Icarus perhaps Telford feeding them information had something to do with that?

NinjaSnake
October 3rd, 2010, 05:39 PM
I have no problem with them finding the planet. It's just that the Tau'ri have censors that detect ships in hyperspace and you think they would have them on Icarus base.

Ekras
October 3rd, 2010, 05:47 PM
LOL I read the title, and I thought you meant the General VS a Starship :) - Was gonna say "He was a good guy and all but...."

pbellosom
October 3rd, 2010, 06:18 PM
I have no problem with them finding the planet. It's just that the Tau'ri have censors that detect ships in hyperspace and you think they would have them on Icarus base.

Do we? I thought that was just Atlantis, in fact I'm sure I remember them saying in Unending they had no way of tracking ships in hyperspace

NinjaSnake
October 3rd, 2010, 06:27 PM
No I'm pretty sure we do now. Hold on I'll look it up.

themeatcleaver
October 3rd, 2010, 07:03 PM
i thought the reasoning behind the targeting of the gliders was because they were trying to stop the attack on icarus rather than take out the ha'taks. Carter said the shields were holding so there was no immediate need to go after them.

for the record, the ha'tak's did NOT make it out alive :)

escyos
October 3rd, 2010, 08:13 PM
The LA may have found some Ori tech and incorporated it into their ships. They WERE theives and criminals, now they have leadership, a fleet, various projects (Kassa, 9th Chevron). They're a legitimate organisation, they come from a street gang selling dope to a mob-like organisation.

Not really that hard to believe.......unless your 8 years old...

JedI Master of the Gate
October 4th, 2010, 03:09 AM
Its makes plenty of sense when you remember the Hammond was rushed into service due to the events of EATG. It wasn't ready for combat

Nope, don't really remember that at all. I was under the impression that it was under construction as of EATG. And if that was the case, rushing it wouldn't do any thing as the battle would be over, one way or another, by the time it was ready.


The LA may have found some Ori tech and incorporated it into their ships. They WERE theives and criminals, now they have leadership, a fleet, various projects (Kassa, 9th Chevron). They're a legitimate organisation, they come from a street gang selling dope to a mob-like organisation.

Not really that hard to believe.......unless your 8 years old...

I dout that it was Ori tech they found, thats a bit of a strech, considering the only real heavy duty tech the Ori had were their ships and they're long gone. I think its more plausible that Telford wasn't the only one of Earths people they captured and brainwashed. There were probably a few scientists captured to and force/brainwashed into up gradeing the LA ships. Also knowing the LA, I doubt these upgrades were sheared with the rest of the "Allience".

escyos
October 4th, 2010, 03:47 AM
Nope, don't really remember that at all. I was under the impression that it was under construction as of EATG. And if that was the case, rushing it wouldn't do any thing as the battle would be over, one way or another, by the time it was ready.



I dout that it was Ori tech they found, thats a bit of a strech, considering the only real heavy duty tech the Ori had were their ships and they're long gone. I think its more plausible that Telford wasn't the only one of Earths people they captured and brainwashed. There were probably a few scientists captured to and force/brainwashed into up gradeing the LA ships. Also knowing the LA, I doubt these upgrades were sheared with the rest of the "Allience".

Or the goa'uld had a bunch of upgrades sitting around and never got the time to install them, the LA takes over and installs them on their ships. either way its not as far fetched as everyone points out

thekillman
October 4th, 2010, 04:06 AM
there are 2 explanations.

1: Telford didn't just tell them about the programme but also about the specs of a 304. in the initial strike, when shieldless, the APBW's were taken out. if you go watch Atlantis, you realize it's not unlikely as they failed quite often.

2: we learn in Human that the base was originally a lucian mining outpost. we saw in SG1 what naquahdriah does to goauld tech. imagine what it does to ha'tak

jelgate
October 4th, 2010, 07:09 AM
Nope, don't really remember that at all. I was under the impression that it was under construction as of EATG. And if that was the case, rushing it wouldn't do any thing as the battle would be over, one way or another, by the time it was ready.



I dout that it was Ori tech they found, thats a bit of a strech, considering the only real heavy duty tech the Ori had were their ships and they're long gone. I think its more plausible that Telford wasn't the only one of Earths people they captured and brainwashed. There were probably a few scientists captured to and force/brainwashed into up gradeing the LA ships. Also knowing the LA, I doubt these upgrades were sheared with the rest of the "Allience".

They had no choice to rush it. The rest of their ships were heavily damanged

P-90_177
October 4th, 2010, 08:30 AM
The way I see it there are two reasons why The Hammond wouldn't have taken on the Hataks:

a) They didn't have the Asgard beams installed.

b) It was strategically unsound to do so.

a) is pretty simple to explain really. Hammond was still a new ship. It's more than likely that they were testing out the hyperdrive and other systems before installing a complicated system like the asgard beam weapons. Admitedly in this case it would have been nice to have a throw away line like "they won't be installed until Tuesday" or so. :P

on the other hand;

b) is a bit more complex but just as likely. Afterall Hammonds first mission was to the safety of the civilians on the planet and the immediate threat to them was the Death Gliders and troop transports. Beam Weapons may be effectie against motherships but not so much against fast moving gliders. Equally the best chance to take out as many gliders as possible is to posistion the ship between them and the planet and provide a stable gun platform from which to take on the fighters. With Asgard shields the motherships weren't a threat to the 304. Now if one of those Hataks had made a move to try and get a firing soloution on the Icarus base or they attempted to land on the planet, then I'd expect nothing less than Hammond to attack them head on, yet as it was, it was easier for Hammond to take on as many fighters as possible to make life easier for Icarus base.

Snowman37
October 4th, 2010, 09:17 PM
In SG-1's penultimate episode, "Dominion," the Oddyssey can capture Adria from Ba'al's pyramid ship with ease. Two years later, the Hammond can't stop the same kind of ship? You can throw around all of these geeky explanations, but at the end of the day, it's inconsistant. I don't care about all of these behind the scenes reasons, I care about what made it into the episode. Now, if we'd seen a new ship that was fighting the Hammond, then I could have bought the leveled playing field. For example, what if the Lucian Alliance had rebuilt Anubis's ship that we last saw in "Lost City?"

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 5th, 2010, 04:56 PM
Snowman,

Gosh, so there wasn't years of research into accessing the 9th Chevron simply because it wasn't shown onscreen? Further, the same ship design can't incorporate new technology? Weren't the 304s that were being *****slapped by the Ori the same ships everyone is screaming were upgraded with Asguard tech allowing the defeat of the Ori?

morbosfist
October 5th, 2010, 05:18 PM
The Icarus project only took around two years to start and finish by Rush's testimony.

The same ship designs can incorporate new technology, but it can't justifiably do so over such a short period without an equivalent source of technology.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 5th, 2010, 07:36 PM
morbo,

A source of technology that the writers have, perhaps, not chosen to reveal to the viewers. It is a simple enough matter to speculate and deduce that such a source of technology may exist given the improvement in the Ha'tak's performance versus the 304s.

morbosfist
October 5th, 2010, 08:26 PM
Sure, writers' convenience could easily write in some source of tech, but they'd be hard-pressed to make that pill easy to swallow. The battle in itself is already rubbing people the wrong way.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 6th, 2010, 03:33 AM
morbo,

What I don't understand is why? Why is it impossible for the LA to have encountered tech or some database that would allow them to beef up their Ha'taks? As I said before, it's a big galaxy for them to explore. You seem to be assuming the LA is dumb because the LA has been protrayed as dumb on SG-1 and SGA and cannot change or develop new leadership.

Snowman37
October 6th, 2010, 06:32 AM
Snowman,

Further, the same ship design can't incorporate new technology? Weren't the 304s that were being *****slapped by the Ori the same ships everyone is screaming were upgraded with Asguard tech allowing the defeat of the Ori?
As of SG-1 "Unending," the series finale, the Oddyssey got upgraded by the Asgard to fight the Ori. It also got a vast computer system that would serve as the Asgard's legacy. Presumably, all of the Earth ships would get the same upgrades. Now, let's think about this logic. An Ori ship can blast a pyramid ship with ease, an Earth ship can blast an Ori ship with ease, so logic would dictate that the Hammond should have been able to blast away the pyramid ships over the Icarus base. Remember when the Daedalus could barely survive Wraith hives? When it got the Asgard upgrades, the Wraith hives went from a lethal threat to nuasance.

I doubnt the Lucian Alliance are as smart as the Asgard, and I doubt they magically found super-technology that can match the Asgard in the span of two years (from SG-1's finale to Universe's premiere). It's just... unrealistic and inconsistant with the story rules established by the writers.

Snowman37
October 6th, 2010, 06:35 AM
Why is it impossible for the LA to have encountered tech or some database that would allow them to beef up their Ha'taks? As I said before, it's a big galaxy for them to explore. You seem to be assuming the LA is dumb because the LA has been protrayed as dumb on SG-1 and SGA and cannot change or develop new leadership.
The problem isn't that the Lucian Alliance have beefed up their pyramid ships. The issue is that they were freed from Goa'uld oppression in SG-1's eighth season. Just four years later, they can match the Asgard? Really?

morbosfist
October 6th, 2010, 07:58 AM
Pretty much what Snowman said. The Lucian Alliance is not a position to magically outstrip the Asgard. The idea that they could just find some random database that's even better than Asgard tech, when it's been established that even the Ori are inferior (and technology just doesn't get more advanced than that in this universe), is patently absurd.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 6th, 2010, 01:46 PM
Morbo,

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't Asgard ships being blown to hell in the episode when the Ori ships came through their "supergate"?

Snowman37
October 6th, 2010, 04:50 PM
That was a year before "Unending." The Asgard had designed weapons to fight the Ori since then.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 7th, 2010, 03:53 AM
As to the better technical performance of LA tech and personnel it sounds like the LA has been, based on Ginn's testimony in "Aftermath", like the LA has been working to bring in more technically proficient people over the last few years. As such they appear to be improving their Tech.

Whether that's enough to stand up with improved 304s appears to be up for debate. What is not is that the LA is no longer merely a group of thugs as many want to classify them.

morbosfist
October 7th, 2010, 10:33 AM
Ginn's testimony proves nothing of the sort. It only shows that they recruit by force.

Snowman37
October 7th, 2010, 10:42 AM
Even if the Lucian Alliance had the galaxy's best scientists working for them... You don't go from slaves to Asgard equals in four years. :P Goa'uld ships were powerful, but Asgard ships could always blast them away. The only exception to this was Anubis, and that's only because he was partially ascended. Basically, Earth's ships are flying around with Asgard shields and weapons. When it comes to a space battle, a Lucian Alliance pyramid ship should be no match for an Earth ship.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 7th, 2010, 02:21 PM
Snowman,

How long did it take Earth (in the Stargate Universe) to go from Space Suttles to 304s? That's with the tech we've found and reverse enginnered.

morbosfist
October 7th, 2010, 04:26 PM
That line of reasoning fails, Scot. We got as far as we did by not only by taking and reverse engineering technology, but by being given design specs and assistance from far more powerful races. You can't keep trying to argue that the Alliance can do the same thing when there is nowhere for them to get that kind of tech.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 7th, 2010, 06:41 PM
Morbo,

Nowhere, we know of. Big galaxy, bigger universe.

morbosfist
October 7th, 2010, 07:06 PM
That's just an excuse to avoid facing the facts.

One, they cannot even leave the galaxy. Intergalactic travel is something only the Tau'ri can do now.

Two, of the many races we've seen, there's only been one alien race ever encountered that they could possibly meet and get tech from, and that's the aliens from "Grace". Seeing as how they fired on the Prometheus unprovoked, that idea is gone.

Three, Ancient technology wouldn't cut it. Beam weapons vape Ancient ships just as fast as Ori ships.

You keep falling back on this "but they could have found something" idea when the simple fact is that the Alliance as it is now cannot possibly be a credible threat in interstellar war.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 7th, 2010, 07:12 PM
Morbo,

I'll bet the Aztecs and the Incas said, "This can't be possible" a lot. The Universe is not just stranger than we imagine. It is stranger than we can imagine.

morbosfist
October 7th, 2010, 07:40 PM
This isn't the real universe, though, it's the fictional one, the details of which we are far more familiar with.

Ser Scot A Ellison
October 8th, 2010, 03:33 AM
morbo,

Yes, but the fictional universe is based on the real universe meaning the LA could have run into something/discovered something that dramatically improved their tech. You know, like the SGC did.

garhkal
October 8th, 2010, 03:47 AM
I dout that it was Ori tech they found, thats a bit of a strech, considering the only real heavy duty tech the Ori had were their ships and they're long gone. I think its more plausible that Telford wasn't the only one of Earths people they captured and brainwashed. There were probably a few scientists captured to and force/brainwashed into up gradeing the LA ships. Also knowing the LA, I doubt these upgrades were sheared with the rest of the "Allience".

WE know from SG1 season 10 there was at least 1 Ori ship on the ground when the Jaffa unleashed the Dakara weapon. Who's to say there wasn;t some others...


Presumably, all of the Earth ships would get the same upgrades.

We may have had the know how, but do we have the material/tools?


The problem isn't that the Lucian Alliance have beefed up their pyramid ships. The issue is that they were freed from Goa'uld oppression in SG-1's eighth season. Just four years later, they can match the Asgard? Really?


From what we learn in Season 2's ep Aftermath, the LA have been a lot more active than just 4 years. 15 at the least...




Ginn's testimony proves nothing of the sort. It only shows that they recruit by force.



BUT it does smack those who say they are only a recent threat...

And as we have seen ourselves. THE ancients we a bunch of litter bugs when it comes to store houses of info/.tech..

HuNteD
October 8th, 2010, 03:50 AM
Anubis's Hataks were able to kick a Beliskner Class to the curb pretty easily and they have the same or similar level of shields to the 304's. Without beam weapons a 304 should loose badly to 3 of them especially since we still have no idea how effective rail guns and missiles will be against one.. It's entirely possible that the LA were able to get a hold of the blueprints to Anubis's improvements. it's also possible that the LA may have fugitive goauld or former hosts working on improvements either willingly or under duress.

morbosfist
October 8th, 2010, 07:46 AM
Anubis Ha'taks don't have shields anywhere near as potent as a 304. That's just nonsense. They could only beat an Asgard science vessel when they outnumbered it. They couldn't take three top-of-the-line O'Neill class vessels, and human ships have shields equal to those.

Gala
October 8th, 2010, 02:14 PM
morbo,

What I don't understand is why? Why is it impossible for the LA to have encountered tech or some database that would allow them to beef up their Ha'taks? As I said before, it's a big galaxy for them to explore. You seem to be assuming the LA is dumb because the LA has been protrayed as dumb on SG-1 and SGA and cannot change or develop new leadership.

Because the beam weapons pierced straight through the asuran ship's shields.

I don't believe there's any way that the hatak's had their shields upgraded enough to resist beam weapons. We saw that their primary weapons are still pretty shoddy. I think either the hammond was hit out of nowhere and it's beam weapons were knocked offline or they were not yet installed.

morbosfist
October 8th, 2010, 02:55 PM
^This.

No matter how much you want to cling to the belief that the Lucian Alliance could magically find uber tech that surpasses even the Asgard weapons which can beat the Ancients and Ori, the simple fact of the matter is that the Lucian Alliance has not demonstrated an ounce of new development from their introduction to their current state. They still use Goa'uld ships, and they still steal everything they have.

garhkal
October 9th, 2010, 06:08 AM
But that they DO steal tech, would give credence to them perhaps having some of Anubis's former fleet of hataks.

morbosfist
October 9th, 2010, 08:16 AM
But that they DO steal tech, would give credence to them perhaps having some of Anubis's former fleet of hataks.They do have some of Anubis' Ha'taks. Netan specifically has one. It doesn't matter. They could only take a Bliskner-class in a fight, outnumbering it I might add. They're no match for a current-generation 304.

HuNteD
October 10th, 2010, 04:44 AM
Except for all we know the railsgun's and missiles might as well be pea shooters against hatak's shields as the only ships we've seen them used against are wraith hives and cruisers (no shields), Oric motherships (uber shields) and an alkesh (much weaker shields then an hatak).