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GateWorld
April 26th, 2004, 03:03 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s1/115.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/graphics/115.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#666666">DISCUSS ...</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4 COLOR="#006699"><B>COR-AI</B></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 115</FONT>
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Teal'c must stand trial for a crime committed while he served as first prime of Apophis when a villager on an alien world identifies him as the Jaffa who killed his father.

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KorbenDirewolf
May 11th, 2004, 12:48 PM
Ah the Byrsa. It seems to me that if I was them, I'd've moved the village a little farther away from the stargate, but that's just me.

Teal'c's willingness to undergo the Cor-ai even though he knew he would be killed was one of the high points of the series. It shows just how much he has really changed from the time he was First Prime of Apophis. Willing to give retrubution to Hanno and metaphorically all of the others he had wronged in service to Apophis. Was sorry to see Shak'l go, kinda liked him. Hanno's question towards the end "You would save those who wish you dead?" and Teal'c's reply "Would save those who deserve to live." really show that he is no longer the Jaffa he once was.

bcmilco
May 11th, 2004, 02:10 PM
Ah the Byrsa. It seems to me that if I was them, I'd've moved the village a little farther away from the stargate, but that's just me.

Teal'c's willingness to undergo the Cor-ai even though he knew he would be killed was one of the high points of the series. It shows just how much he has really changed from the time he was First Prime of Apophis. Willing to give retrubution to Hanno and metaphorically all of the others he had wronged in service to Apophis. Was sorry to see Shak'l go, kinda liked him. Hanno's question towards the end "You would save those who wish you dead?" and Teal'c's reply "Would save those who deserve to live." really show that he is no longer the Jaffa he once was.

I don't think he's "changed" so much as he's now able to express his views without fear of punishment from his "god".

KorbenDirewolf
May 11th, 2004, 04:46 PM
I don't think he's "changed" so much as he's now able to express his views without fear of punishment from his "god".

which would be the change...

bcmilco
May 11th, 2004, 05:17 PM
All I was saying is I see it more as a situational change not a character change.

I think Teal'c would have been just as willing to face his fate back when he was serving under Apophis but because he was first prime it wasn't likely to happen. However now that his situation has changed he is actually having to face those concequences.

Rhydderch Hael
May 22nd, 2004, 10:55 PM
which would be the change...

Not quite. The Teal'c who shot Hanno's father was very much the Teal'c of today: excercising decisions of compassion and mercy whenever and however he could do it. The change between the two Teal'cs is that today's man no longer confronts situations where his compassion and mercy are denied, whereas the Teal'c of old hardly ever had that chance and instead did what he was commanded to do by Apophis.

Teal'c saw Hanno's father's silent plea, and complied with it: if you have to take one, take the one who would only hurt the others if he continued to live. There's a bit of synergy here that is brought up in "Threshold"— you cannot break Apophis' command... but you can bend it a little.


...I think Teal'c would have been just as willing to face his fate back when he was serving under Apophis but because he was first prime it wasn't likely to happen. ...
I'll have to disagree. Back then, Teal'c didn't see any hope of attaining freedom because the Byrsa, like him, were a people held underfoot by the Goa'uld tyranny. He could have defied Apophis's order— maybe even have turned and fired on his own men, but he would have had no chance then on playing further upon his act of rebellion: no where to go, no ally to fight with. He would have fought and died for his conscience and his freedom— but would have died alone.

When Jack and the gang showed up, it was a revelation to Teal'c: an entire race of humans who had never trembled to the word "Goa'uld". Here was his chance: an alliance with a people who were in a good position to combat the Goa'uld and win. "Many have said that... but you are the first I believe could do it."

bcmilco
June 8th, 2004, 06:45 PM
Back then, Teal'c didn't see any hope of attaining freedom because the Byrsa, like him, were a people held underfoot by the Goa'uld tyranny. He could have defied Apophis's order maybe even have turned and fired on his own men, but he would have had no chance then on playing further upon his act of rebellion: no where to go, no ally to fight with. He would have fought and died for his conscience and his freedom but would have died alone.

I didn't mean that he would turn on Apophis, what I meant was that had Teal'c been called into acount for killing the man's father he would have faced his fate and not tried to run. However because he was Apophis' First Prime it wasn't likely that he would have to face the concequences.



When Jack and the gang showed up, it was a revelation to Teal'c: an entire race of humans who had never trembled to the word "Goa'uld". Here was his chance: an alliance with a people who were in a good position to combat the Goa'uld and win.

Frankly I find Teal'c's switch bothersome. I love Teal'c and I think his character is wonderful (especially when he gets a chance to speak! ;)), but his change just doesn't work for me. You said "people who were in a good position to combat the goa'uld." And for me that's the rub, they weren't in a good possition. They were in the crappiest possition they could be in. They were prisoners, and Teal'c had no clue how many there were, or how strong they were. To just up and take off with some nobody you just meet isn't the smartest idea, other then the fact that the script says it's the right thing to do. ;)


"Many have said that... but you are the first I believe could do it."

And that line always baffled me too, because up till then he's seen humans from earth get the crap kicked out of them by Jaffa. IMO there is no reason why Teal'c should believe that statement except for the fact that the script told him to say it. ;)

I understand it's supposed to show he's noble, and virtuous, and a good judge of character, and I did see that, but it still bothers me. ;)

SeaBee
June 26th, 2004, 04:13 AM
I must admit to being a little confused over this one.

If I was living in an area close to where enemies keep appearing, then I would move away. Mind you a lot of people live on the San Andreas fault, even though they know that one day........

Perhaps it's just Human optimism.

Bagpuss
June 27th, 2004, 02:53 AM
Excellent Teal'c ep,IMO. I liked his "I'm sorry,O'Neill.I will not run" line.
Whatever he may have been,or done in Apophis' name, before changing sides,I feel that line summed Teal'c up very well. :D

rihannsu
July 6th, 2004, 12:48 PM
I'm working on a Teal'c fanfic and I watched this episode yesterday. I was struck by how little we knew about Teal'c back then and how his inner calm and moral compass has really changed very little. We've just seen more of it over the seasons.

Selmak
July 10th, 2004, 07:33 PM
This episode definitely shows teal'c's honor.

Selmak
July 15th, 2004, 06:03 PM
The natives have a weird legal system.

aAnubiSs
July 15th, 2004, 06:04 PM
Well, it isn't like ours, but I can understand it.

Selmak
July 16th, 2004, 10:42 AM
Yeah that's what I was thinking as I posted it.

Rhydderch Hael
July 22nd, 2004, 10:10 PM
...Frankly I find Teal'c's switch bothersome. I love Teal'c and I think his character is wonderful (especially when he gets a chance to speak! ;)), but his change just doesn't work for me. You said "people who were in a good position to combat the goa'uld."
Teal'c saw Jack's watch and new it was technology above the common human's level, yet was distinctly alien as well ("This is not Goa'uld technology...") And Daniel's revelation of their homeworld would have triggered one certain impression...


up till then he's seen humans from earth get the crap kicked out of them by Jaffa.

...the impression I convey here: your statement is incorrect. Up until now, what Teal'c has seen of the humans from Earth (from the world marked by Daniel in the sand) was a bunch of people who managed to kill two of Apophis' personal warriors. Did you catch Apophis' expression when the first Serpent Guard was killed? A bit of a "WHAT!? How dare you!" thing going on there.

Suffice it to say, it may not (it should not!) be everyday that a bunch of "primitive" human slaves manage to kill one of your god's personal guards. Much less a pair of them. Stuff like that tends to create an impression.

Crazedwraith
July 23rd, 2004, 04:13 AM
...the impression I convey here: your statement is incorrect. Up until now, what Teal'c has seen of the humans from Earth (from the world marked by Daniel in the sand) was a bunch of people who managed to kill two of Apophis' personal warriors. Did you catch Apophis' expression when the first Serpent Guard was killed? A bit of a "WHAT!? How dare you!" thing going on there.

Suffice it to say, it may not (it should not!) be everyday that a bunch of "primitive" human slaves manage to kill one of your god's personal guards. Much less a pair of them. Stuff like that tends to create an impression.

Also Apophisis and therefore Teal'c Might know it was Danny and the people form the symbol he showed him that Killed Ra, they KILLED A GOD. Thats gotta mean something.

Selmak
July 26th, 2004, 05:44 PM
I forgot... did they not go because they were kept by the natives or because Teal'c didn't want to?

Replicarter
September 4th, 2004, 02:09 PM
Crap, such a boring episode. It should have never been made.

Crazedwraith
September 4th, 2004, 02:14 PM
I forgot... did they not go because they were kept by the natives or because Teal'c didn't want to?
Huh? They didn't go when? At the start when Hanno was screaming and the elders wanted to put him through Cor-ai?

Or mid-cor-ai, when Jack want to bust him out cos it was clear Hanno was going to kil him if he stayed?

For the former it was because of the Natives, there were to many ofthem pionting cross bows for them to take out.

As for the later ti was because Teal'c didn't want to go...

Uncle Dick
September 17th, 2004, 10:05 PM
Crap, such a boring episode. It should have never been made.
Yeah, damn that blasted character development! More explosions!!

This episode was essential in defining Teal'c's character. After his betrayal of Apophis in "Children of the Gods", I just didn't buy it. Why would this guy suddenly turn around and join the humans and why would O'Neill trust him so readily? For a while, I just had to proceed with the assumption that he wouldn't be listed in the main credits if he weren't a good guy.

And then this episode arrived and Teal'c's character was finally given a reason to be trusted by me. Of course, "Ascension" kind of messed that all up, but that's a discussion for another time, I suppose.

Ramne
September 17th, 2004, 11:32 PM
I really enjoyed this episide also, it let us know a lot about what make Teal'c tick. One of my fav's from S1.

Uncle Dick
September 19th, 2004, 12:11 AM
Ah the Byrsa. It seems to me that if I was them, I'd've moved the village a little farther away from the stargate, but that's just me.
Persumably, the Stargate and buildings surrounding it have a religious and cultural significance to the native humans. Not to get too political here, but I'd imagine tensions in Israel would be greatly reduced if the Palestinians would just give up any pretension of ruling Jerusalem. Unfortunately, it's a holy city and neither side is going to want to abandon it. I imagine there's a similar principle at work in this episode.

Lord Zedd
September 19th, 2004, 06:34 AM
well I liked it.It was better than the episode Demons.Tea'lc shows he has feelings too,that he has done something wrong,he worked for a false god who orded him to kill and now he shows remorse

zats
October 29th, 2004, 06:52 PM
This was a great ep, as far as storylines go. It introduced a little more about Teal'c's character, which is always nice, and it showed just how much he'd changed, not to mention how long he'd been resenting Apophis. (This is just a random thought, but do you reckon that Jaffa are allowed to form unions? Don't ask where that came from, I don't know myself). My Mom cried at the end of this one. I just laughed about Teal'c's face paint. Seriously, though, it was a great ep.

I do wonder what we're going to do to help the natives out defenses-wise. I mean, it's not like they have a lot of technology as it is, probably because they keep getting killed off before they can perfect it. I doubt that they've gotten the silk-and-amber thing figured out, let alone the kite and they key. Anyway, the point of this rather meandering bit of verbage is that I was wondering, exactly what would we do to help them out? Station troops on the planet as a precaution? Give them a few peices of heavy artillery? Any thoughts, anyone?

WraithWarrior
November 15th, 2004, 03:32 AM
Didnt like this episode much but it was good how they showed that Teal'c was never really a bad person even before he joined SG-1. However, I wonder why Teal'c never turned his back on Apophis before unless it was because with SG-1 coming through the Stargate he found somewhere to go after he rebelled against the Gou'ald

.:Lemon:.
November 15th, 2004, 01:53 PM
This episode scored average to me. Some really good bits in it, but not enough to be one of my favourite eps. Although, I do love it when Jack says: 'Why has it always got to be something religious with you. Maybe they're coming from a swap meet!' One of my all time fave Jack lines :D

ShimmeringStar
January 1st, 2005, 02:07 PM
A so-so ep. I could identify with Jack; you wanted to reach out and smack Teal’c for giving in so readily. T's need to want to cleanse himself of the deeds he’d done by allowing himself to be brought to justice was understandable, but as Jack’s argument (about being in a chain of command that didn’t give T freewill to choose) pointed out Teal’c had less choice back then than he did now. (But then Jack (& us viewers) didn’t know Teal’c had been taught by Bratac, who was himself acting subversively by training certain Jaffa like Teal’c to think independently and do what they could for the Jaffa cause in whatever way they could…. :) )

zats
January 2nd, 2005, 01:34 PM
Teal'c is awfully pigheaded at times, but he's getting better. I'm starting to like Teal'c episodes more now (S8) than I did when I first saw this one.

kelmah
February 8th, 2005, 10:17 AM
took me forever to see this ep, I kept missing it on SciFi.
I really liked it. Great character developement.

SmartFox
February 9th, 2005, 09:41 PM
Persumably, the Stargate and buildings surrounding it have a religious and cultural significance to the native humans. Not to get too political here, but I'd imagine tensions in Israel would be greatly reduced if the Palestinians would just give up any pretension of ruling Jerusalem. Unfortunately, it's a holy city and neither side is going to want to abandon it. I imagine there's a similar principle at work in this episode.

Why would they have religous significance. The stargate is where the "gods" come from and kill them. Every intelligent live form is afraid or doesnt want to die. (few exceptions for every race)

This episode really showed Teal's charchter and im really started to like Teal'c after seeing this ep.

hermajesty
March 4th, 2005, 02:48 PM
I thought this was a pretty good episode. It was nice to learn more about Teal'c's past.

For me though, the scene with Jack and Hammond was the most interesting because it raised a lot of moral questions. Would it have been right to send in troops, or should they let these people do 'justice'. Is Teal'c a war criminal? And we hear that Jack has also done some terrible things under orders. I know some people will have very strong views on this issue, but i really couldn't decide - both sides of the argument seem to have valid points. Those people have a right to their own justice system- even if we disagree with the outcome, does it mean we should interfere? At first i was completely against sending in troops to an essentially peaceful planet, but then when Hammond agreed with me and i thought Teal'c was going to be executed, i swung round completely to Jack's side of the argument.

What do you think?

jckfan55
March 5th, 2005, 10:24 AM
I thought this was a pretty good episode. It was nice to learn more about Teal'c's past.

For me though, the scene with Jack and Hammond was the most interesting because it raised a lot of moral questions. Would it have been right to send in troops, or should they let these people do 'justice'. Is Teal'c a war criminal? And we hear that Jack has also done some terrible things under orders. I know some people will have very strong views on this issue, but i really couldn't decide - both sides of the argument seem to have valid points. Those people have a right to their own justice system- even if we disagree with the outcome, does it mean we should interfere? At first i was completely against sending in troops to an essentially peaceful planet, but then when Hammond agreed with me and i thought Teal'c was going to be executed, i swung round completely to Jack's side of the argument.

What do you think?

This wasn't my favorite episode, but I agree that it made you think. It's easy to take the moral high ground when a friend isn't at risk. Luckily Teal'c was able to redeem himself in the victim's eyes.

PugGate
March 9th, 2005, 07:58 PM
It was nice to learn tha Teal'c has been defying his "God" for awhile now

Albion
March 25th, 2005, 04:20 AM
Ah the Byrsa. It seems to me that if I was them, I'd've moved the village a little farther away from the stargate, but that's just me.

LOL. Yes, this occurs to me every time I watch this episode. They have this whole society which seems to spend most of its energies thinking up ways to avoid being taken by the Jaffa and living in permanent fear of the Stargate opening. You'd think they'd figure putting a few thousand miles, some mountains, a few rivers, <g> between them and the Stargate might make it slightly more difficult for the Goa'uld. I mean, could they get any closer to that gate? It's odd when they don't seem to use the gate for travel at all.

Despite this illogic, I like this episode. It's not an A-list favourite, but it has some good moments and it's an interesting and poignant character study for Teal'c. Jack's frustration with the system and with Teal'c is well played and it's an interesting 'moral dilemma' show.

But then, I like Demons too. :p

Albion :)

ApophisOfTheStargateRealm
April 9th, 2005, 04:43 PM
This episode was the one that got me to realize that teal'c WAS first prime to apophis (i never understood that). It was also interesting to see how SG-1 kept on making points and examples (that were legitimite). Daniel had a good speech but was quickly shot down with "Can he bring my father back".

Good episode.

twiggy
April 21st, 2005, 03:49 PM
it was good imo. i personally liked the slower moving eps of the first few seasons :). but i also liked that after WW2, there were lots of questions about should the commanders be punished for killing people coz they were "following orders".

Tara
May 19th, 2005, 09:30 AM
It's probably sensible of them to be close to the gate because at least they know when the the enemy is coming. The distance is not a very big deal for Apophis because he has all kinds of ships anyway, but if they had moved further away, they would never know when to hide.

ApophisOfTheStargateRealm
June 22nd, 2005, 08:29 AM
It's probably sensible of them to be close to the gate because at least they know when the the enemy is coming. The distance is not a very big deal for Apophis because he has all kinds of ships anyway, but if they had moved further away, they would never know when to hide.

they could post sentries by the gate if it was farther away and have thos sentries find a place to hide after they sound the alarm...

Darkstar
August 23rd, 2005, 09:56 AM
this is ok i've only seen it once so it was fairly good i'd give it a 5/10.with resevations of course

Stricken
September 8th, 2005, 01:46 AM
Cor-Ai what was the point in this episode??

walter_MacChevron
September 12th, 2005, 09:49 PM
^^^^i dont think there was one........but nice flashback to Apophis and a lot of off-world-ness here! so i am happy

Daniel's_twin
September 16th, 2005, 12:07 PM
Cor-Ai what was the point in this episode??

I guess they figured that they had to show some of the consequences of what Teal'c used to do.

Personally, this is one of SG-1's few episodes that was not that great. They coulda done it a little better, made it more interesting or just whatever. My sister and I can't help but make fun of the way Shack'yl says "Teeeeeal'c." It is just too funny. :cool:

Metarock Sam
September 21st, 2005, 03:13 PM
This episode is one of those real character defining episodes showing how brave and honurable Teal'c is. This episode also gave us an insight into how harsh you had to be to be the First Prime of Apophis.

Kensterman
December 6th, 2005, 06:43 AM
I watched it last night: come to think of it, I think it was too convenient that the Goa'uld appeared at the end to indirectly save Teal'C -- it's too well timed for that to happen.

Albion
December 6th, 2005, 10:03 PM
The point of it was to redeem Teal'c. Given the atrocities he'd participated in while serving Apophis, there had to be a defining moment for the character when he was shown to be decent and honorable and remorseful. To make sure the audience knew that although he'd done evil things in the past, he was now reformed as a hero. Then he could move on, having put his past - somewhat - behind him.

Albion :)

AGateFan
February 13th, 2006, 05:28 PM
Teal'c is indeed remorseful. Its refreshing to have someone admit responsibility (even if he truey had no control) and is ready and willing to accept the consequences. As opposed to some people who admit guilt and indicate they are remorseful but think that because of it they should get a lesser or no punishment or worse the people that are not remorseful at all and think they had a right to treat others poorly.

Hira
February 23rd, 2006, 06:50 PM
Liked this episode, I though it really showed Teal'c true colours.

Pharaoh Atem
March 26th, 2006, 04:15 PM
a ok epsiode showed that teal'c did good things while being with aposhis

captain jake
May 3rd, 2006, 03:58 PM
Yes I also felt that it was important to show his past. Especialy when it's a good one.

Sheppard
July 19th, 2006, 09:34 PM
i thought this episode was a great one and im glad too see that teal'c was able to make and get out of that place in one peace

L.A. Doyle
February 7th, 2007, 09:52 PM
i thought this episode was a great one and im glad too see that teal'c was able to make and get out of that place in one peace

Ok, first I LOVE your sig. Second, I'm glad he got out too! You know how Jack was so bent on getting Teal'c out? My friend and I have a joke...friends don't let friends Cor'Ai. :P But really, this shows how honorable Teal'c is. He did some horrible things, admittedly, but he is willing to take responsiblity for them.

Hart
April 12th, 2008, 09:12 PM
Boy, I think this is one of the most underappreciated episodes. Like everyon'e mentioned, obviously it was good to get some insight into Teal'c's character and to understand how he's really a good guy then and now. So there's that.

There's also the really interesting (and relevant) issue of war crimes/being responsible for acts that were committed while following orders. How could you not be livid with General Hammond for refusing to dispatch a combat unit to save Teal'c's life? I really related to Jack's fury because it was really a slap in the face to Jack, as well. Jack had just told the general that he'd been responsible for some dubious things while following orders and in the military, where trust is paramount, you'd like to think that you're not going to be abandoned when the time comes to be held accountable. That Teal'c was basically sentenced to die because Hammond would not send help was a really heinous act to Teal'c, Jack and the whole team.

And Hammond stressed it wasn't just the president's opinion, it was his, too! If I was Teal'c (or Jack), I'd have real issues with Hammond, who up until now has always been a good, honorable guy. The excuse that Teal'c is not an American (nor an Earthling) really puts Teal'c in his place, I guess.

Another interesting issue brought up in this episode was the sci-fi oldy but goody of whether to interfere in lesser developed cultures. Only it was done really cool because on the one hand, these peoples' justice system, obviously compared to ours, is retarded. It's like they need a lessen in law 101. You can make the argument that just because it's not like ours doesn't mean it doesn't have merit, but c'mon ... a society where the accuser presides over and determines guilt and punishment of the accused is destined for complete failure. Anybody could kill anybody for any reason.

Also, what about Jack's assurance to Hanno that they could be helped by Earth in defending themselves against the Goa'uld? Is that a good thing? Going against Star Trek's prime directive could be a very bad thing ... and do you provide them with weapons when their justice system is so whacked?

I just really think this episode was great and needed some loving on. Wasn't perfect, of course. The fact that Apophis just happened to come to the planet between the time Jack and Sam left and when they returned was gay. And I agree with others' thoughts about it being moronic that the village surrounds the stargate, though I can almost buy the idea that it could be some sort of religious/cultural item of importance to them. Or, maybe it makes sense that they want to be right next to it so they are there to know when the Goa'uld are coming, but I dunno about that.

Hart
April 12th, 2008, 09:24 PM
I wanted to add one more thing ...

I know Daniel was able to bring out in Teal'c's "trial" that Teal'c killed Hanno's father because he was handicapped and thus was actually saving future lives, but did anyone else get the distinct impression (and this didn't come up in the trial which I think provides more insight into Teal'c's character than anything else in this episode did) that Hanno's father was telling Teal'c to kill him?!!!

The beauty of this episode is abundant and complex to me. But the best part is that I don't believe Teal'c killed Hanno's father at all!!! He knew someone had to die because Apophis had ordered it, so he sacrificed himself when he saw a tiny bit of "humanity" in Teal'c's eyes by "telling" Teal'c to kill him. You could tell he was saying "kill me, I'm old and I'm crippled. Let the women and children live. Take me."

You could argue the wisdom of Teal'c in not revealing this, but again, the episode's point was to demonstrate how great Teal'c is and in insisting on dying for his crime against Hanno's father he is shown to be honorable and good. But Teal's is great and honorable not because he wanted to die for killing Hanno's father, but because he wanted to die for all of his crimes committed as Jaffa, least of which was killing Hanno's father who was telling him to do so!

HelloVelo
May 30th, 2008, 11:57 PM
Ugh. I didn't like it.

Rating: 2/10

Full Review: http://stargatesummer.blogspot.com/2008/05/cor-ai.html

L E E
June 23rd, 2008, 07:20 AM
Boy, I think this is one of the most underappreciated episodes. Like everyon'e mentioned, obviously it was good to get some insight into Teal'c's character and to understand how he's really a good guy then and now. So there's that.

I agree. Underappreciated. From the synopsis, I have already assumed that this will be about Teal'c's deeds in the past vs. what he is now. But this isn't really what made the ep interesting for me.

There are quite a number of powerful scenes in this ep. Like the following:

1.
the really interesting (and relevant) issue of war crimes/being responsible for acts that were committed while following orders.

This is one of the highlights of the ep for me. Should a soldier be punished for following orders? Jack mentioned something about chain of command and free will. Soldiers don't have free will by virtue of chain of command. Now, if you include religion here, one might say that free will is a gift from God and no man can take it away. Opinions?

2. I liked that scene in the control room when Hammond said something about the US govt does not involve themselves into other people's war/stuff/business, whatever. And Jack was like "since when?!". Hah! Apologies to americans, but honestly, Jack is right.

3. Not rescuing Tealc because he's neither american nor earthling. But, they are willing to use him and send him on dangerous missions. While they were using Tealc, the govt does not seem to mind that he was once Apophis' first prime.

4.
Another interesting issue brought up in this episode was the sci-fi oldy but goody of whether to interfere in lesser developed cultures. Only it was done really cool because on the one hand, these peoples' justice system, obviously compared to ours, is retarded. It's like they need a lessen in law 101. You can make the argument that just because it's not like ours doesn't mean it doesn't have merit, but c'mon ... a society where the accuser presides over and determines guilt and punishment of the accused is destined for complete failure. Anybody could kill anybody for any reason.

Yes. I really found the "courtroom" scene very interesting as well. Jack's arguments about how the matter should be presided. That someone impartial should be the judge and not one who is emotionally attached to the case. Daniel did mention that the justice system we have now is quite new that older justice systems are quite the opposite. So let's all be thankful for living in the present.

I don't agree with giving the people weapons. I hope that Jack is not thinking about that when he made the offer. Maybe SGC will share knowledge to these people that is at their current level? With a price of course. After all, the prime directive of SGC is to find allies/technology/anything that can help them defend against the Goauld. If there is no benefit for Earth, I doubt that they will be back to that planet.



I just really think this episode was great and needed some loving on. Wasn't perfect, of course. The fact that Apophis just happened to come to the planet between the time Jack and Sam left and when they returned was gay. And I agree with others' thoughts about it being moronic that the village surrounds the stargate, though I can almost buy the idea that it could be some sort of religious/cultural item of importance to them. Or, maybe it makes sense that they want to be right next to it so they are there to know when the Goa'uld are coming, but I dunno about that.

Yup. these are some of the nitpicks I have for this ep. Especially the part about living near the stargate. Maybe Jack will teach them to... move somewhere else. Like away from the gate. Or perhaps he'll tell them to take down the stargate. there was really no explanation as to why they surrounded the stargate. they can always post guards near the stargate. then the guards can alert the villagers wherever they are.

L E E
June 23rd, 2008, 07:29 AM
You could argue the wisdom of Teal'c in not revealing this, but again, the episode's point was to demonstrate how great Teal'c is and in insisting on dying for his crime against Hanno's father he is shown to be honorable and good. But Teal's is great and honorable not because he wanted to die for killing Hanno's father, but because he wanted to die for all of his crimes committed as Jaffa, least of which was killing Hanno's father who was telling him to do so!

IMO. Death will not erase his sins. It will not bring back the people who died. It will not erase the past. It will not make things right. Hanno is right in that the present will not change the past. So will death. Death is too easy. I don't even think that it is really a punishment. Living with your sins is the worst punishment I think.

While alive, one can still atone for one's crimes/sins by helping others. By living ones life to the fullest. By doing the right things. By protecting all that is good and just. SG-1 should watch Rurouni Kenshin (Samurai X in some countries).

captain jake
June 25th, 2008, 04:04 PM
I was going to ask why they kept their village so close to the StarGate, but I decided to go back and see if anybody had a theory. I saw that a couple of people had asked the question and a couple had a theory. They said that the gate had religious significance therefore they decided to creater there village around it.

I believe that they keep the gate close for one reason and that is so they know when the Goa'uld are coming. As soon as the gate starts to light up they can run and flee. It gives them time to hide, whereas if they were far away they would be caught off guard. They follow a simple saying that makes complete sense "keep your friends close and your enemies closer".

I apologize if someone had posted something similar to this before I didn't read every post, I just kind of skimmed.

pritnep
July 28th, 2008, 03:40 AM
Unfortunately this probably is among my not so favourite episodes of season 1, just seemed boring to me.

The idea has current/present significance though - who is at fault those that carry out the crimes or those that order them. It's kind of the un-winable argument really because everyone will see it differently depending on the acts carried out and by whom.

In Teal'c's defence though Aphosis had everything over him and at least in this instance there really wasn't much he could do. Teal'c probably helped to save many more by killing one, it was either that or let Aphosis order to kill everyone.

What was with Jack in a black cap? Seemed really out of place since he always wears the green one.

SG1FanOregon
August 3rd, 2008, 06:49 AM
I really enjoyed this ep & think this is 1 of the greatest character developing episodes for Teal'c. Aside from how enjoyable it was or not, it was a very important ep & helped answer a great many questions about Teal'c that sprang from the pilot. Who & what exactly Teal'c is as a man was first hinted at when he said "Many have said that, but you're the first who I believe could do it". Yet not once in the 2nd ep "The enemy within" did anyone ever ask "Why did you defect"? They pumped him for info without ever attempting to know anything about him. That stems from the fact that the writers were still building the basis of the show & had yet to answer the same questions themselves. We have yet to meet Bra'tac who was I think introduced as a means to explain where Teal'c belief that the "Gods" are false came from. In a world where everyone is raised to think they are real Gods, It must be rare to even think of deviating from the norm & Teal'c belief needs explanation.

From this ep we discover that Teal'c is a tortured soul with a good heart who'd been forced to serve a dictator & do evil as the only way to defy that same evil. Teal'c never shows much emotion or volunteers much in the way of his personal opinions, but it became very apparent that he has a great depth of feeling, & love of his people. Teal'c has the true honor of a knight who detests harming innocents & I think to a point he hates himself for all he's done & see's that nothing he does to make things right will ever erase the evil he's committed in the past. I think Teal'c gave himself up to the trial a bit too easily, but it just shows to an even greater depth the pain & remorse he's buried deep inside him from decades of being Jaffa, & in the end 1st prime. Even worse, he's allowed himself to be labeled a traitor by his own people much the same way Worf did in Star Trek TNG. He's a lost soul traveling beween worlds not knowing exactly where he belongs or if he'll ever have a family again or a place he can call home. For Teal'c SG1 is the means by which he may be able to free his people & possibly find some redemption for himself. Afterall, I think the biggest question is "Can Teal'c ever truly forgive himself for everything he's done in the past". Cor-Ai says no. Not yet anyway

ValaDee
August 5th, 2008, 01:05 PM
I actually felt bad for him in the ep...I didn't think he should be punished for things he had no control of. He was full of remorse for all that was done...But I guess as in life, we must pay for our wrongs... :)

Pic
August 7th, 2008, 11:38 AM
I was going to ask why they kept their village so close to the StarGate, but I decided to go back and see if anybody had a theory. I saw that a couple of people had asked the question and a couple had a theory. They said that the gate had religious significance therefore they decided to creater there village around it.

I believe that they keep the gate close for one reason and that is so they know when the Goa'uld are coming. As soon as the gate starts to light up they can run and flee. It gives them time to hide, whereas if they were far away they would be caught off guard. They follow a simple saying that makes complete sense "keep your friends close and your enemies closer".

I apologize if someone had posted something similar to this before I didn't read every post, I just kind of skimmed.


When the question was raised, I was thinking along the same lines. If they moved too far away what kind of alarm system would they have?

And, no, I didn't see it mentioned either but I skimmed as well. :D



I am a bit surprised that it too until page 3 to talk about war crimes, responsibility and accountability. I'm still unsure how I feel about that.

The Byrsa's system of justice seems deeply flawed to me in that the victim decides the sentencing. "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" or something like that. I had higher hopes when Hannan (sp?) bowed to Teal'c and asked his forgiveness. I thought perhaps heartfelt remorse and a plea for forgiveness would be what they wanted of Teal'c. Nope, vengance was the dish du jour.

RononXSpecialist
November 8th, 2008, 03:39 AM
That was probably the most unfair court system EVER. Guilty till provin innocent? Lol plus the guy already chose his dissicion before they even started the court.
One of the most boring eps in my opinion.

Butlersgate
February 23rd, 2009, 07:13 AM
That was probably the most unfair court system EVER. Guilty till provin innocent? Lol plus the guy already chose his dissicion before they even started the court.
One of the most boring eps in my opinion.

guilty till proven innocent is what health and safety is haha

The Stig
April 20th, 2009, 03:47 PM
having a population put Teal'c on trial for what he had done is a gem of an idea. One of my favourite season 1 episodes

Ulkesh47
April 20th, 2009, 03:55 PM
having a population put Teal'c on trial for what he had done is a gem of an idea. One of my favourite season 1 episodes
Mildly surprised this kind of thing doesn't happen more often. Not that I want it to! :tealc:

lordofseas
July 30th, 2009, 08:39 PM
Mildly surprised this kind of thing doesn't happen more often. Not that I want it to! :tealc:

I agree, as FP of Apop., it logically should have happened more times, but oh well. I thought it was well done, and I loved Teal'c's paint. :P

jelgate
July 30th, 2009, 09:59 PM
If they did that more often people would whine rehash

lordofseas
July 31st, 2009, 04:23 PM
If they did that more often people would whine rehash

True. And TPTB would lose viewers.

Tachyon
January 19th, 2010, 08:14 AM
This is not among my top episodes, but it's damn well written one nonetheless. I just recently watched this and was amazed.

mrscopterdoc
February 5th, 2010, 09:16 PM
This is a great episode for Teal'c. Very powerful.

Lunaeclipse
May 1st, 2010, 06:39 AM
I liked the way the characteres interacted in this ep. Sure it was a little predictable near the end, but I was curious to see how they were going to play it out. From how it started Teal'c was in trouble and not wanting to get himself out of it. He started off in trouble I found it interesting to see if ti could've got worse.

Side note - they could've burried the gate, right?

maneth
May 2nd, 2010, 12:04 PM
Burying the gate could've attracted goa'uld ships and the destruction of the entire planet in retribution...

Since it was obvious that Teal'c would survive, the rest of the plot was pretty predictable. And the arrival of the other goa'ulds was just a little too conveniently timed to be believable as a coincidence.

Lunaeclipse
May 3rd, 2010, 03:24 PM
Burying the gate could've attracted goa'uld ships and the destruction of the entire planet in retribution...

Since it was obvious that Teal'c would survive, the rest of the plot was pretty predictable. And the arrival of the other goa'ulds was just a little too conveniently timed to be believable as a coincidence.

Yeah I guess.

Sometimes a program can surprise you by making one of the main characters the focus, but using some of the other characters to fix the problem in a unique way, which was what I wanted to see (if they had of done that, but they didn't), however I was still happy when the predictable end ended with Teal'c being let go.

Vagabond Serpent
July 5th, 2010, 04:28 AM
A strong average episode of season one. Makes you think a lot and develops Teal'C's character immensely. As someone posted earlier, it's clear now that Teal'C has truly changed, and that old Teal'C and new one are two very big differences. The new one is eager to help fight the Goa'Uld, though he's stubborn to understand the chain of command thing. The way I see it, and the way our government and army see it, a commander is responsible only for the orders he gave, and for the orders he followed, his CO is responsible for. Any orders are first followed, then they can be questioned, not vice versa. So I side with Jack, Sam, and Daniel on this one, that Hanno's father death was Apophis only guilt. Though neither Teal'C, nor Byrsa would want to believe this, and it's extremely unlikely to see Apophis going through cor-ai. :P

Byrsa's court system is truly weird and wrong, I agree. If it was like this here on Earth... Well, you can imagine what would happen. The one thing I read back and disagree on this topic is about the death as punishment. Executions aren't merely punishment, they're public demonstration and means of control. When you watch execution, you subconsciouslly swap places with the criminal, and I'm sure that the amount of those willing to share the fate is extremely low, if not absent at all. Living with the sins can't redeem wrong doings, like Hanno said that no good deeds of Teal'C can bring his father back to life. So death sentences must exist.

But that court showed us the role Daniel best suits for - speeches. :P His performance was brilliant without any doubt, he made crowd reacting in shock, talking with Teal'C and trying to prove that he's changed, even Hanno admitted the wisdom of his arguments before utterly defeating him with his last question about his dad.

And it was extremely strange to see Hammond react reluctantly to help Teal'C out of the mess, but these scenes showed us the true place of Teal'C on Earth - an alien, maybe a friendly, but an alien. And Jack's "Since when?" line there was hilarious. :D No offense to Americans meant. :)

Considering Shak'l attack on the village - well, if the Jaffa wouldn't show up, how Teal'C would survive? :) Besides, Hanno mentioned in the very beginning that the Goa'Uld were long overdue, so their appearance was expected any moment of the episode. And I too find it quite stupid to live so close to StarGate if it hurts that bad, but also I find Byrsa's will not to leave anyone behind honorable and respectful. :)

Talking about the Cartego defences we offered... Well, since there's most likely nothing to learn from Byrsa, the defences will be probably just burying the gate. :)

Oh, and there's one funny thing in this episode, though it exists only in Russian voiceover. :P Some wise guy translated "Cor-Ai" as "Corps-A1" and it aired. :D And, of course, there's that Daniel/Jack dialogue when the people return:

:daniel:: That's interesting. I wonder if everyone's coming from some religious event.
:jack:: What does it always have to be a religious thing with you? Maybe they're coming from a swap meet.

Anyways, it's a good episode, but it might have been shot better.

6/10.

Tallifer
September 10th, 2010, 03:42 PM
A fascinating episode. So many issues.

1. What is justice? The Byrsan system protects the rights of the victim at the expense of impartial discovery of the facts. Our system goes so far to protect the rights of the accused that sometimes factual evidence is legally repressed.

Note also that the Cor-Ai did not begin until Tealc confessed his guilt. Presumably a more mysterious case would have involved some other procedures. (Although those might have been equally primitive, such as trial by ordeal.)

2. What responsibility do subordinates bear for the wicked orders which they have performed? Tealc obviously believed that any soldier chooses to obey and thus bears responsibility. Certainly the fate of a disobedient soldier, and especially that of a Jaffar, can be grievous; but Tealc recognized that the gravity of his crimes deserved a grave punishment. Had he disobeyed he would have died. Now that he had obeyed, he will also die.

(On the other hand, the ending showed the virtues of forgiveness and reconciliation. That Tealc was willing to accept responsibility enabled his victim to honorably and mercifully forgive his wrongdoer. Had Tealc been stubborn or selfish, forgiveness would have seemed out of character for Hanno.)

Of course, the true injustice was that Apophis could not be held responsible, as is usually the case in the matter of war crimes. How many commanders have ever been disciplined for the acts of their soldiers?

3. Was capital punishment a just sentence for Tealc's crimes? "Whoso sheddeth the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed."

...

The only problem with this story was (as has been pointed out) the ridiculous self-imposed predicament of the viallgers. Move away from the Stargate, fools!

Saquist
September 15th, 2010, 03:47 PM
Something O'neil says in this episode.


"The whole concept of Chain of command undermins the concept of free will."

Superior Orders
(often known as the Nuremberg Defense or Lawful Orders) is a plea in a court of law that a soldier not be held guilty for actions which were ordered by a superior office.[1] The superior orders plea is similar to the doctrine of respondeat superior in tort law where a superior is held liable for the actions of a subordinate, and the subordinate may escape liability.[2] Some legal scholars and war crimes tribunals will correlate the plea to the doctrine of respondeat superior; whereas others will distinguish the plea from the doctrine of respondeat superior.


The superior orders plea as often regarded as the complement to Command responsibility.

One of the most noted uses of this plea, or "defense," was by the accused in the 1945-46 Nuremberg Trials, such that it is also called the "Nuremberg Defense." The Nuremberg Trials were a series of military tribunals, held by the main victorious Allied forces of World War II, most notable for the prosecution of prominent members of the political, military, and economic leadership of the defeated Nazi Germany. It was during these trials, under the London Charter of the International Military Tribunal which set them up, that the defense of "Superior Orders" was no longer considered enough to escape punishment; but merely enough to lessen punishment.[4]

Historically, the plea of "Superior Orders" has been used both before and after the Nuremberg Trials, with a notable lack of consistency in various rulings.

I find it curious that O'Neil did not know this.
Every solider should know this.

ChulaksPrincess
October 21st, 2010, 01:58 PM
Teal'c is indeed a man of awesome character. He was willing to face his punishment and die, and determined not to run.

Saquist, thank you for the information in the above post. I didn't know that.

Narurin
April 7th, 2011, 05:26 AM
I really liked this episode because it showed us more of Teal'c while he was first prime. It gave us the first hint too, that he believed the Gou'ld to be false gods long before SG1 came along.

PrinceOri
April 23rd, 2011, 05:50 AM
So this episode annoyed me a lot... I know people have said some great things about it, but it annoyed me greatly. First of all: I already knew his character before this. He saved SG-1 and so you kind of knew he was a good guy. And I thought it was horrible you had to put him through that....yeah, not a big fan of this episode.

Lunaeclipse
April 25th, 2011, 05:30 PM
So this episode annoyed me a lot... I know people have said some great things about it, but it annoyed me greatly. First of all: I already knew his character before this. He saved SG-1 and so you kind of knew he was a good guy. And I thought it was horrible you had to put him through that....yeah, not a big fan of this episode.

I think you missed the point... It's about more than Teal'c being a good guy. There are a few other lessons/ideas in that ep.

Starscape91
August 14th, 2011, 11:39 AM
At first I was dreading watching this episode, but now I'm glad I did. I forgot that they compared the things Teal'c did in the service to the Goa'uld to the things Jack did in the service to the U.S. Air Force. And can you be held accountable for the deeds your commanding officer order you to do or in Teal'c's case his god? Although I think their is some rule in the Air Force that says something about being able to disobey an order for something, but I forget.

dtheories
August 14th, 2011, 10:23 PM
Something O'neil says in this episode.
"The whole concept of Chain of command undermins the concept of free will."
Superior Orders

This was a very interesting read! Thanks for sharing. Judge Bill Dwyer wrote a book on the rule of law and its development over time that was also fascinating.

There were so many storylines condensed into this one ep! My appreciation for the townspeople's application of their law was based particularly on their personal honor; they would not first claim something that was not true, and so, they would only discharge their version of justice based on the harm caused by the victim. The manner in which the young man begged forgiveness for his treatment of Teal'c; the equality among the citizens who revere their elders, but feel strong enough to challenge each other when they feel the laws are being betrayed. Most people quietly whine behind the scenes rather than advocate for what is right - for themselves or another.

Their willingness to fight, even knowing they would be outmanned and outgunned by the Goa'uld, reflected their respect for humanity. Naming the 'gate the Circle of Woes suggests a people of compassion, and using the laws to treat another unfairly would not benefit the individual nor their culture.

And, Hot Damn, Teal'c! Whoa!

muziqaz
August 15th, 2011, 02:06 AM
didn't really enjoy the villagers behaviour.
But as always, timely appearance of jaffa saved the day :D

Lieutenant Sparrow
August 16th, 2011, 04:42 AM
Not my favourite ep. I found Teal'c to be out of character.

It annoyed me because Teal'c wants to free the Jaffa. Most importantly his son. He can't exactly do that if he's dead now can he. So it annoyed me that he was so willing to die.

fems
August 16th, 2011, 05:40 AM
But Jaffa also have a very strong sense of honor.

lookupwardsnshare
August 16th, 2011, 01:19 PM
Enjoyed the ep but not one of my favs. It was very character driven especially for Teal'c. Not only do we see Teal'c's honor but I think he realizes that he more than a member of SG-1 but that the team considers him a friend and will stick by him no matter what and willing to do what ever to save him.




There were so many storylines condensed into this one ep! My appreciation for the townspeople's application of their law was based particularly on their personal honor; they would not first claim something that was not true, and so, they would only discharge their version of justice based on the harm caused by the victim. The manner in which the young man begged forgiveness for his treatment of Teal'c; the equality among the citizens who revere their elders, but feel strong enough to challenge each other when they feel the laws are being betrayed. Most people quietly whine behind the scenes rather than advocate for what is right - for themselves or another.

Their willingness to fight, even knowing they would be outmanned and outgunned by the Goa'uld, reflected their respect for humanity. Naming the 'gate the Circle of Woes suggests a people of compassion, and using the laws to treat another unfairly would not benefit the individual nor their culture.

I agree.

juggernaut975
August 17th, 2011, 08:20 AM
At first I was dreading watching this episode, but now I'm glad I did. I forgot that they compared the things Teal'c did in the service to the Goa'uld to the things Jack did in the service to the U.S. Air Force. And can you be held accountable for the deeds your commanding officer order you to do or in Teal'c's case his god? Although I think their is some rule in the Air Force that says something about being able to disobey an order for something, but I forget.

It depends. There is such a thing as an 'unlawful order', just an example but if a superior officer or a ranking NCO ordered an enlisted to rob a bank or something....the soldier would have to be able to discern 'Hey, THIS doesn't seem right...' and then take the matter up the chain of command.

With Teal'c and Jack....they're both long-term, seasoned military members. In fact, as Apophis' First Prime I'd say that Teal'c has a higher rank than Jack (amongst the Jaffa, compared to Jack's rank of Colonel) and more experience.

The difference here though is that Teal'c has been fed this bill of goods about the Goa'uld since birth. His entire life he's served 'the gods', it was only in his later years as a high ranking Jaffa that he began to doubt and began to contemplate turning on Apophis.

While he was 'following orders' when he was carrying out his duties I'd say that, more importantly here, he was obeying what he thought was his god...that's going to carry a lot more weight than someone who outranks you giving you an order in the US military.


Middle of the road episode for me, not terrible but not great.

Some great insight in to Teal'c's character here....they could have easily dismissed the Cartagoans but, instead, he wished to repay his debt. He couldn't make up for everything that he did but he was determined that HERE, on this world, he would make amends as best he could, even at the cost of his own life.

I REALLY like the fact that Jack went along with this....up until the point that it looked like a lost cause....and then he was still determined to blast their way out of their with Teal'c.

Growing up with Star Trek the way I did, this situation raises all sorts of questions about 'What right do WE to interfere with another society and their legal system? Is it our place to intercede on the behalf of an individual who has committed heinous acts against the people of Cartago? And on a hundred other worlds? Where does our responsibility lie, with the individual or the law, even a law we do not recognize?'

And while those questions are being asked Jack would come in, shoot into the air to scare off the guards and then, quick as a wink, take off with Teal'c right back through the Stargate, no mess, no fuss lol.

It's what makes Stargate, imho, more fun to watch and a more enjoyable franchise than Star Trek.

poundpuppy29
August 17th, 2011, 12:46 PM
Great Teal'c episode and loved Daniel & Jack & Sam

another scientist
August 18th, 2011, 01:34 PM
I really like, that we see Teal'c doubting Apophis' decision so early on and trying to do as little harm as possible, by killing the slowest member of the clan.
It's also nice to see that he is not letting them punish him simply out of honor (though that is definitely part of it) but also because of this massive guilt he feels about his actions.
I always thought of it as a similar situation as that of a former Goa'uld host, unable do do anything against the crimes but still feeling guilty. Sure, he could have rebelled sooner, but that would have only cost him his life and saved no one.

mathpiglet
August 18th, 2011, 04:49 PM
Growing up with Star Trek the way I did, this situation raises all sorts of questions about 'What right do WE to interfere with another society and their legal system? Is it our place to intercede on the behalf of an individual who has committed heinous acts against the people of Cartago? And on a hundred other worlds? Where does our responsibility lie, with the individual or the law, even a law we do not recognize?'

And while those questions are being asked Jack would come in, shoot into the air to scare off the guards and then, quick as a wink, take off with Teal'c right back through the Stargate, no mess, no fuss lol.

It's what makes Stargate, imho, more fun to watch and a more enjoyable franchise than Star Trek.

Actually, I found this episode similar to the season one episode of TNG called "Justice". In that, Wesley Crusher inadventently breaks the law of the world and is condemned to death.

hlndncr
August 18th, 2011, 08:49 PM
I have to admit that I didn't really care for this episode. I thought is was rather average. But rewatching it I am very moved by CJ's performance. I think it really shows the depth of Teal'c's struggle.

We also get to see Daniel's compassion in truly making Teal'c his friend. Some of Jack's demons come out too.

I really like the Bursa and their society. I agree with Daniel that they have a very lovely existence. Their commitment to not leave anyone behind would really resonate with the team.

I also find their justice system interesting. It is not unreasonable or unprecedented in history, as Daniel points.



http://signavatar.com/7792_s.gif

jlovette
August 19th, 2011, 06:13 AM
Two things I liked:

1) Jack and Hammond's debate over the definition of war criminals and whether or not to save Teal'c, and

2) "We would appreciate that." Halas's (sp?) response to Jack's offer of future help against the Goa'uld. It seems to me that many times we see others stubbornly refuse help or have their own, better way. it was nice to see Earth could actually help someone. I'm sure it happens in other episodes, but it stood out to me here.

Other than that, an okay episode.

chaddergate
August 19th, 2011, 08:09 AM
didn't really enjoy the villagers behaviour.
But as always, timely appearance of jaffa saved the day :D


:indeed:

Jae'a
August 19th, 2011, 08:13 AM
My LiveJournal post (http://jo-r-lee.livejournal.com/5282.html)

jckfan55
August 19th, 2011, 09:36 AM
Two things I liked:

1) Jack and Hammond's debate over the definition of war criminals and whether or not to save Teal'c,
I think it was important for the show to deal with Teal'c's past and whether he could be redeemed by his current and future actions against the goa'uld.

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
August 19th, 2011, 05:03 PM
Once again, another yawn episode. Forgot to mention this, but in "Hathor," Hammond lost a layer of clothing.

At least it gets better. Next week, we enter the home stretch of Season 1. Many strong episodes.

Noxbait
August 19th, 2011, 06:08 PM
I think it was important for the show to deal with Teal'c's past and whether he could be redeemed by his current and future actions against the goa'uld.

Agreed. Excellent point.


Wow. Honestly, I love this episode. It is powerful. Especially the part where Jack is talking to Teal'c alone after the first part of the trial. Some excellent and powerful dialogue and emotions displayed in that scene, and the whole episode. Just wow. I really liked seeing the emotional tormented side of Teal'c. I mean, he's this big strong warrior all the time and acts like nothing bothers him, but yet here he "loses" it and shows how very torn up he is inside over what he's done

Wow. Love the part where Jack is questioning Daniel in order to help Teal'c. Again, some powerful stuff.

I also liked the other parts between Daniel and Jack where Daniel is going in one direction, and Jack's not quite on the same page. Some good banter and conflict. Jack is so focused and firm in that he is NOT going to let anything happen to Teal'c, reminds me of Thor's Hammer where he won't leave Teal'c. Also, Daniel's passionate speech and defense of Teal'c was great. I love the strong loyalty among the team even now, still rather early in the series. I love Jack's firm disagreement with Hammond as well. He was tough as nails and really pushing hard. Wow, I love tough Jack. He is the best friend you could hope to have!

I also thought it was interesting and cool how Daniel said he agreed with Jack and wasn't going to let Teal'c die. He was initially all about doing it the way of the culture and respecting their wishes and culture, but he changed sides eventually. I'm not sure how many other times he did that, but I like that he was very reasonable about it.

Nice ending all around. Aw, love the end with Jack putting his hand on Teal'c's shoulder. Maybe it took till this moment for Teal'c to really feel a part of the team and the Tau'ri, building on the foundations of CotG and Thor's Hammer. This would have been a nice culture to visit again, since they were accepting of future relations and assistance and we left on a good note.

Krisz
August 19th, 2011, 08:19 PM
Another episode that passing time has mellowed my view of. The discussions of the distasteful things that Jack and Teal'c have done under orders were good scenes between the two. Lovely reasoning argument from Daniel. I didn't find this episode so boring this time round because I actually enjoyed the moral arguments about taking responsibility for one's actions. Teal'c wanted so much to find some peace from the agony of living with what he'd done. It haunts him always, and that makes him the great friend and advocate for justice.

Summed up nicely with this.....

HANNO: You would save those who wish to kill you?
TEAL'C: I would save those who deserve to live.

LeftHandedGuitarist
August 21st, 2011, 05:39 AM
Great episode, I thought. Some good and meaty scenes between characters that allows the actors to be pushed. Really enjoyed the scenes with Jack and Gen Hammond, and pretty much all the stuff with Teal'c. It's let down by a convenient ending with the Jaffa attacking, and therefore allowing Hanno to have his change of heart in the closing minute. Far too simple.

The courtroom scenes are good fun although they feel very "set up" for lack of a better term. The way the crowd would react with their shocked murmurs after every sentence SG-1 would say got annoying very quickly!

RATING: 7.5 out of 10

Matt G
August 21st, 2011, 02:40 PM
Another Sunday afternoon, another ep of SG1

1. I'm with the argument that the Byrsa were staying near the Stargate as an attempt to "keep your friends close and your enemies closer".

2. As Saquist said, rewatching this I came to my own opinion regarding Nuremburg. Then again, Jack's priority was to get Teal'c out alive and was going to use any argument going.

3. Plus the fact that he himself did "damn distasteful things"...therefore he couldn't condemn Teal'c without looking at himself in the mirror.

4. Still, the Byrsa were petty idiots, they would have flat tyred the wider fight vs the Goa'uld to avenge one man?

Certainly an interesting one.

Nindif
August 22nd, 2011, 01:53 AM
I think it was important for the show to deal with Teal'c's past and whether he could be redeemed by his current and future actions against the goa'uld.

i agree, although it does come rather early on in the whole series and (from memory) does not get addressed again this directly.


2) "We would appreciate that." Halas's (sp?) response to Jack's offer of future help against the Goa'uld. It seems to me that many times we see others stubbornly refuse help or have their own, better way. it was nice to see Earth could actually help someone. I'm sure it happens in other episodes, but it stood out to me here. Other than that, an okay episode.

I also found this line of dialogue interesting, because, as you say, there are very few opportunities for Earth to provide assistance to other planets so readily as the series progresses. The line is brushed aside as if the writers expected Earth to be fully capable of supporting all the planets in need in the future!

Traveler Enroute1
August 27th, 2011, 12:55 PM
SG Rewatch episodes: 101 - 105, 106, 107, 109, 110, 111,112, 113, 114

Cor-Ai

A meaty episode and a little tedious, too. This story gave us a look beneath Teal'c's warrior demeanor, and we find a bit of a softie. He's always known he'd done terrible things in the name of his god but had to do them anyway until the Tau'ri. That he felt for the subjected wasn't too surprising after knowing him a few episodes in. But for him to be willing to die for the one child whose loss stared him in the eye, as penance? Ye gods, Teal'c, or as Jack would say, 'oh for crying out loud!'

What a time for Teal'c to get burdened over his past deeds. I thought his stubbornness went beyond even the TV bounds of reason. What saves this ep is the neat writing where the whole team tries to defend him. Jack used Daniel's experience with Teal'c to good effect, and Sam and Daniel's input made for nice team unity. For all of it to be in vain because the complainant has all the control was another good tension point. It was indeed a kangaroo court in Jack's words.

Also Jack's passionate plea for Teal'c to allow himself to be rescued was an interesting referral to Jack's own ghosts from his military past. Jack wasn't half bad with his turn as a barrister.

As nice as Chris Judge's performance as the guild ridden Jaffa was, I was still not convinced of his motivation. Unless he was in a state of depression; after all he'd given up, left behind, and now considered a friend of the very people he'd have killed, maybe it all became too heavy. Having lived over a century, a mental review of all his deeds, in the face of his conscience, would be a terrifying recollection to live with. Whatever, it got old fast; his lines were just too repetitive, I guess.

Hammond was used to good effect. While the team assumed that Teal'c had earned his status as an ally, Hammond dropped the 'not-one-of-our-own' bomb. Teal'c was, in the eyes of earth's military, a war criminal who was bound to meet justice sooner or later. The stunned expressions on Jack and Sam's faces showed how hard this hit them. Of course we see that this isn't an easy decision for Hammond.

Other thoughts:


Daniel's skill with words was put to good use here. Shanks earned another nod for portraying his unshakable faith in Teal'c and his fervent defense to the court. Had this been a juried trial, the reaction of the people to his words would have turned the verdict to Teal'c's favor.


Oh, to be the hands doodling on Teal'c...Oh, wait. OK, that strange ritual looked ticklish. Wonder if Chris laughed during the shoot.


When Sam and Jack return and find the town burned down, they seemed oddly casual. "Things look a little different to you?" Jack asked as they stroll through the smoking ruins. Odd moment.


Wonderful chilling reveal of Shak'yl, complete with the Goa'uld Chorus. :p



Nice lines:

Daniel to the 'court':
Many of you might not be alive today to want him dead! What a line; no wonder the galleries were buzzing. I imagined they said, 'What did he mean?'

Jack when Sam offers a reason for the missing people:
Keep those positive thoughts coming, captain. Maybe it's just me but I get a wave of nostalgia when Jack says Captain to Sam. It just sounds so full of respect (or more, but that's a conversation for that OTHER thread). I miss hearing him say it when she's promoted.

The episode exorcised Teal'c's deep anguish over his past misdeeds and freed him to face other battles where he'd likely come face to face with old faces. I think he realized, as Jack said, that his past was not totally under his control. He was a good man who still had more good to do. Thank goodness.

Rated 2/5.

jelgate
August 27th, 2011, 02:01 PM
This is one of my favorite episodes from season 1. We know Teal'c has done some horrible things as First Prime but it was kind of glossed over due to his service to SG1. I love how this episode stops glossing over and addresses those terrible things Teal'c has done and how it affects him. The episode helps define Tealc and who he is seeing how he felt as he commited forced murder. My one compliant is killing Shak'al so early on. I would have kept him sooner to make a foil for Teal'c

Naomi
September 1st, 2011, 08:56 AM
So this episode annoyed me a lot... I know people have said some great things about it, but it annoyed me greatly. First of all: I already knew his character before this. He saved SG-1 and so you kind of knew he was a good guy. And I thought it was horrible you had to put him through that....yeah, not a big fan of this episode.I agree that Teal'c is a good guy. I think his actions in "Children of the Gods" proved that point. For me, the episode isn't about what the Byrsans put Teal'c through so much as seeing what Teal'c puts himself through. Teal'c's expressions, and actions, in CotG showed that he did not like what the Goa'uld did to people. I think "Cor-Ai" is a chance to see just how badly Teal'c felt about his time as First Prime, something that isn't previously addressed much. Teal'c is very stoic.

In the episode, Teal'c mourns for all of his victims, and for people he could not help. Teal'c even apologizes to Shak'l. Probably because Teal'c could not change Shak'l's mind about serving the Goa'uld, and had to be the instrument of his death. I think "Cor-Ai" also provides a measure of peace for Teal'c because Hanno forgives him. The son of one of his victims forgiving Teal'c won't erase his past as First Prime, but it can be a re-affirmation for Teal'c that his new path is making a difference for the good.

I enjoyed this episode.

CMWriter
September 25th, 2011, 08:59 PM
Holy cow, you guys, I just saw this episode and it made me want to weep from its utter brilliance. I knew it would be coming eventually but just the way it played out was phenomenal. The scene with Teal'c and O'Neill in the empty courtroom is fantastic for both of them.

Actually one of my favourite aspects of this is that, despite all the reasons and explanations behind Teal'c's crime, he is still (technically) guilty. I like that he's put on trial and that it is, in the end, the victim's son who gives him his staff back. Yes, I know they're not going to kill off a major character in the middle of the first season, but it could have played out quite differently.

Slightly cliche? Maybe, but I don't care. It was incredible. This is one to remember for me.

Lunaeclipse
September 26th, 2011, 06:26 PM
I had a whole bunch of new respect for Teal'c after this episode...

moondragon
October 14th, 2011, 09:22 PM
I am very moved by CJ's performance. I think it really shows the depth of Teal'c's struggle.

We also get to see Daniel's compassion in truly making Teal'c his friend. Some of Jack's demons come out too.

I really like the Bursa and their society. I agree with Daniel that they have a very lovely existence. Their commitment to not leave anyone behind would really resonate with the team.

I also find their justice system interesting. It is not unreasonable or unprecedented in history, as Daniel points.



[img]http://signavatar.com/7792_s.gif[img]

I have to agree with your points here. We really get to see how deeply Teal'c has been affected by the many "damn distasteful things" that he has done. He wanted the chance to be tried and sentenced by one to make amends to the many. We were also able to get an insight into Jack's past and how he related to what Teal'c was going through. I think for him it was, 'if Teal'c dies for his past sins following orders, then I am no better and should also die as well'.

Dimes
December 23rd, 2011, 10:06 AM
A very strange justice system as always ^^
Pretty good episode in my opinion.

Zaany
August 10th, 2012, 05:37 AM
This is probably my least favorite episodes in the entire SG series, after emancipation. Even though story and character development wise it's actually good and has development(Teal"c in particular), i just don't like the episode that much. Great episode as far as TV shows in general are concerned, but not by Stargate standards imo. I find the son of the dead man extremely annoying and narrow minded(which is the point obviously, coz of the cultural difference and how they perceive justice so differently) that through the episode i just want to take the pitchfork looking thingy or stick of justice, whatever its called and hit him in the face with it. In the end when he comes to his senses is when my rating of the episode goes up lol.
Make no mistake, its a great episode and i like what goes on there but it's just not for me.

Major_Clanger
September 30th, 2012, 10:04 AM
I thought it was another great example of our superiority complex - and a great reminder that we should be a bit more sensitive to other cultures. The idea that one is innocent until proven guilty isn't even universal on this planet, so why anyone would think that primitive societies on other planets would be as advanced as we are, is anyone's guess.

What I really liked about this ep is that we see more about how Teal'c had already been having doubts, and looking for people who could help him overthrow the Goa'uld.

Nicely done for the most part.

Falcon Horus
May 20th, 2013, 03:23 PM
Cor-Ai, more commonly remembered as The One Where You Really Want To Gag Daniel... which Jack eventually nearly does with his Can it! comment.

Oh noble Teal'c, sometimes you need someone to knock some sense into your head. How will you fight for freedom when you're dead? You can't. But I guess, he does have a point that he can give retribution to this one.

And Teal'c's not one of us... funny how this brought a deja-vu from Stargate Atlantis where they don't want to set up a rescue mission for Ronon when he's taken by the Wraith.

What I have come to dislike a wee bit, however, is the sound effect of the Jaffa walking when they are not even wearing any real armor to begin with. They sound super heavy, but they're not... all that foam probably weighs a bit but their chainmail hauberks aren't even real. It does take away a bit of the magic... *shrug*

Seaboe Muffinchucker
May 21st, 2013, 07:34 AM
Oh, I don't know. That much knitted cotton weighs a great deal, not to mention all the paint it's slathered with...

;)

Seaboe

Falcon Horus
May 21st, 2013, 07:46 AM
Oh, I don't know. That much knitted cotton weighs a great deal, not to mention all the paint it's slathered with...

Yeah, probably... I just want it to be more authentic, I guess. I mean, the helmets bending when they fall takes the fun out of it. :p

Seaboe Muffinchucker
May 22nd, 2013, 07:40 AM
I agree. And I'm pretty sure those fancy shoulder-collars are rubber, from the way they just won't lay flat.

Seaboe

Falcon Horus
May 22nd, 2013, 08:21 AM
One thing's for sure, though, authentic or not, those suits were probably damn uncomfortable. :p

AsgardGirl
September 15th, 2014, 07:23 AM
I found this one a bit boring. The differences in justice systems might be done more interesting, if it couldn't be just “our is better”. It was nice to see what did Teal’c do as a first prime.

ngewakl
February 6th, 2015, 12:13 AM
So So episode for me. Had several good dialogue but that's about it. Came to the forum with many things on my mind about this episode but reading through the threads, seems everything has been mentioned. I'm gonna start rating episodes throughout my re-watch and I'm gonna give this episode 2/5 stars.

maneth
August 20th, 2015, 09:40 AM
Pretty good episode. I like both Teal'c and Daniel, so...

Anja
September 5th, 2015, 08:13 AM
Holy cow, you guys, I just saw this episode and it made me want to weep from its utter brilliance. I knew it would be coming eventually but just the way it played out was phenomenal. The scene with Teal'c and O'Neill in the empty courtroom is fantastic for both of them.

Actually one of my favourite aspects of this is that, despite all the reasons and explanations behind Teal'c's crime, he is still (technically) guilty. I like that he's put on trial and that it is, in the end, the victim's son who gives him his staff back. Yes, I know they're not going to kill off a major character in the middle of the first season, but it could have played out quite differently.

Slightly cliche? Maybe, but I don't care. It was incredible. This is one to remember for me.

I agree - Teal'c at his best!!!!!

Falcon Horus
November 17th, 2017, 06:49 PM
And then comes the snorefest that is Cor-Ai -- gosh, this is such a low-budget episode with a story that's not entirely necessary, and the same time entirely necessary but I can't be moved by it, one way or another.

Anyway, my previous review still stands so I'll just quote myself...


Cor-Ai, more commonly remembered as The One Where You Really Want To Gag Daniel... which Jack eventually nearly does with his Can it! comment.

Oh noble Teal'c, sometimes you need someone to knock some sense into your head. How will you fight for freedom when you're dead? You can't. But I guess, he does have a point that he can give retribution to this one.

And Teal'c's not one of us... funny how this brought a deja-vu from Stargate Atlantis where they don't want to set up a rescue mission for Ronon when he's taken by the Wraith.

What I have come to dislike a wee bit, however, is the sound effect of the Jaffa walking when they are not even wearing any real armor to begin with. They sound super heavy, but they're not... all that foam probably weighs a bit but their chainmail hauberks aren't even real. It does take away a bit of the magic... *shrug*

How would you rate SG-1's "Cor-ai?"

Excellent
Good
Fair
Poor
Terrible

Giving it a fair, even though I couldn't care less about it.

Falcon Horus
November 18th, 2017, 04:46 PM
Here I am with the 3-episode quiz (https://goo.gl/forms/n2ihrJCAG5F4PcBE3) and the jigsaw puzzle for Cor-Ai (https://www.jigidi.com/solve.php?id=OZ1DOJ4K).

jelgate
November 23rd, 2017, 01:00 PM
I'm giving it a good. I actually like the Cor-ai. To me I like the examination of an alien legal system. It seems crazy to us but I see Daniel's point that most legal systems are guilty until proven innocent. Maybe you didn't need to show Teal'c's guilt but I think you can say that about a lot of character pieces.

aretood2
November 23rd, 2017, 01:25 PM
8 Minutes and 40 Seconds

Daniel's comment isn't too far from how we actually do things, at least socially.

jelgate
November 24th, 2017, 06:16 PM
6 minutes and 50 seconds

Who Knows
November 24th, 2017, 10:32 PM
8 mins 43 secs

Falcon Horus
November 29th, 2017, 02:02 PM
8 minutes and 48 seconds

Laxian of Earth
January 12th, 2018, 02:42 PM
Hey guys,

so I've started to watch Stargate again (DVD's are a blessing!) and I am just watching this episode and I am kind of angry at Hammond ATM (especially since he seems uninformed about US history!)

Hammond claims that the US don't stop prosecuting war criminals even if they have important imformation, which is a bold claim especially since it's WRONG!

The US stole thousands of NAZI scientists (yes, stole because their knowledge and talent wasn't available in Germany anymore! Then again Germany, unjustly, became a free for all after WWII - patents, technology, Art, valuables, guns etc...a lot of the stuff wasn't even owned by the state but by private companies...the US should be sued for damages IMHO!) after WWII, hell one of future leaders (he was one of the directors) of NASA a Wernher von Braun (who was probably one of the top rocket engineers to ever live and a visionary! He was however tainted by his past in the Nazi-Pary, sure he joined to be allowed to continue his research...I don't know what to think about him because on the one hand I admire him, but on the other hand I think he should have fled Germany, which he didn't!) was one such scientist!

The US also gave the members of the Japanese chemical and biological warfare department (especially Unit 731!) freedom from prosecution on the condition that they handed over the results of their "work" (which consisted partly of exposing prisoners of war to toxic substances etc. - meaning all of the people who worked there were war criminals of the highest order and mass murderers!)

Sorry, but a General (anybody above the rank of Lt.-Colonel should IMHO know military history and who doesn't shouldn't advace this far, ever!) who doesn't know this really needs to crack open a few books on history and get educated!

Worse: He excuses not trying to save Teal'c this way and it rightfully so riles up Jack and Sam!

Sorry George, but you are out of line!

greetings LAX
ps: What do you think? (I didn't remember this episode being this good, hell when I saw this one last I didn't make the connection to Operation Paperclip and to Unit 731, despite knowing of their existance!)

Falcon Horus
January 12th, 2018, 04:28 PM
I had no idea about the Japanese, but do know about the German scientists (that's European history for ya).

I watched it with a different mindset, that he isn't helping Teal'c because he's technically not an "American" or an "Earthling". However, I think in season 1 they were still trying to establish character and some were hits and some were misses. I don't see later Hammond repeat that same action early Hammond took.

jelgate
January 12th, 2018, 05:14 PM
The statement was never meant to be historical accurate. Stargate has always shown an idealistic version of the government and military

aretood2
January 12th, 2018, 05:19 PM
There are more historically inaccurate/iffy comments made by those who have no business making such mistakes in this series. This I can forgive due to the "Rule of Cool".

Laxian of Earth
January 13th, 2018, 02:50 AM
I had no idea about the Japanese, but do know about the German scientists (that's European history for ya).

I watched it with a different mindset, that he isn't helping Teal'c because he's technically not an "American" or an "Earthling". However, I think in season 1 they were still trying to establish character and some were hits and some were misses. I don't see later Hammond repeat that same action early Hammond took.

Probably not - still, that was pretty damning...I find it particularly odd that I didn't remember this before re-watching the episode! That's probably why it has me stumped that way, then again first season Hammond isn't my favourite (IMHO the General should have somehow prepared for Kinsey shutting down the SGC, hell he should have gone with SG-1 on their mission - along with SG-2 and as many others as can manage (they all know what's at stake and they are all special forces, so by deffinition one should expect them to go above and beyond the call of duty!))

"Orders are orders and need to be followed!" is not a very convincing position, especially if it's a stupid one that might end up getting you freaking killed!

greetings LAX

BethHG
June 12th, 2018, 04:45 PM
I really liked this episode. Christopher Judge was excellent in the emotion that he portrayed, and showed his remorse for his past life.

I looked at the puzzle, but pieces seem to be getting smaller. :P

jelgate
June 12th, 2018, 06:16 PM
You can zoom in and out

BethHG
June 12th, 2018, 06:47 PM
You can zoom in and out


Fantastic! 9:04 :D

Falcon Horus
June 13th, 2018, 02:55 AM
You can zoom in and out

Which has caused me to zoom out way too far... man, those pieces were tiny. :p