yet another ZPM thread, sorry,

[PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn]

I know there are a lot of posts on this, but I have an issue with the concept of the ZPM, and given there are a huge number of posts on this forum about connecting to the Destiny by way of ZPM, and the counter arguments their not powerful enough-1/2 empty and whatnot.

I don't take issue with the concept of requiring multiple ZPM to power something like Atlantis, I'm thinking there might be a saturation point in the amount of power it can give out (as I'm a bio student I'm going to use an analogy I can explain properly)

if we consider the ZPM to be equivalent to a cell, and that power leaving through a form of diffusion. on the basis that zero-point energy is the lowest possible energy state it can be, the energy must be extracted. so whilst not an accurate fit, I consider this somewhat like active transport. in that it must be extracted across the gradient.

Spoiler:

the error in this analogy is that it requires energy to push against the gradient, which may or may not be the case here, however the process inevitably uses more energy than it produces, so fails to accurately fit with how we've seen the ZPM work

assuming its similar this requires a mechanism to transport the energy, a conduit of sorts (protein channel in a cell) given that the cell has a maximum surface area, this limits the number of channels that can move power out of the cell. so when these channels are pumping as much energy out as they possibly can, there is a limit to the overall power able to be emitted.

now if you have a power need that is more than that amount, you need to have multiple power sources to supply it, hence why Atlantis would need three ZPM to work at 100% capacity.


my issue with the concept of the ZPM is this, I cant see how they can run out of energy, if this is the case then they aren't utilizing zero-point energy at all. I quote wiki here

Zero-point energy is the lowest possible energy that a quantum mechanical physical system may have and is the energy of the ground state. The quantum mechanical system that encompasses this energy is the zero-point field

by this definition, you CANNOT lower the amount of energy in the ZPM, it is already as low as is physically possible to go, therefore the ZPM is always going to be 100% full. as it cannot "lose" energy.

I'm not speculating how you could extract energy from it, however, I have thought of a basic analogy for it.

if you have a well. and the water cannot drop below 10m of the bottom. ie there is ALWAYS 10m of water there, (no matter how deep the overall well is (ie hight above that 10m)) then under normal physics its always going to take more energy lifting a bucket of water up, that is generated by letting it fall. UNLESS, you can nullify the effects of the weight of the water, using the concept of the inertial dampers, you could nullify the mass of the water within that bucket, thereby requiring very little energy to lift it up the well, but with the "dampers" off dropping it back down would result in a net gain of energy

I know that both analogies I've made have massive flaws in certain aspects, however I think they do show what I mean.

I know that having the ZPM lose power is a plot devise, and is but one of many violations that the series has required to explain things. I'm just being a nitpick.

[thekillman]

the problem with a ZPM is that ZPE is an empty bucket. can you draw water from such a bucket? no.

if we assume you can drain energy from ZPE, we know it creates exotic particles. we know those particles can destroy a universe.

therefore a ZPM depletes when the bottleverse collapses due to the formed exotic particles.

[PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn]

the problem with a ZPM is that ZPE is an empty bucket. can you draw water from such a bucket? no.

if we assume you can drain energy from ZPE, we know it creates exotic particles. we know those particles can destroy a universe.

therefore a ZPM depletes when the bottleverse collapses due to the formed exotic particles.

if we see energy as water. ZPE is not "no water" its a minimum level of water below which it cannot fall. the bucket is just a metaphorical description for removing the energy.

the method of extracting energy is always going to be an impossibility with regards the laws of physics - my analogy was the only way I could think of as a possible method.

the flaw I see with your destroying universe theory is this. exotic particles weren't shown destroying the universe, rather they were shown to violently interact with matter, creating dangerous radiation. in Trinity the solar system (and universe) weren't destroyed because of exotic particles, but because the energy levels were wildly unpredictable,

as a poor analogy, if you have a car with 4 wheel drive, if the levels of power being transmitted to each wheel were to drastically fluctuate the car would be unable to be controlled and would crash.

this is essentially what happened with the experiment, and the uncontrolled energy discharge destroyed the solar system.

if you look at the inter-dimensional tunnel based episode (cant find that one - or summary of it anyway) (where an alternate Rodney is brought over - ie 2 Rodney's)the exotic particles created by the experiment didn't destroy that universe (or even that solar system - though were threatening life there as a result of the radiation)

another thing, the ZPM is a bubble of subspace, can particles exist in subspace??? I'm not sure thats possible.

[thekillman]

if we see energy as water. ZPE is not "no water" its a minimum level of water below which it cannot fall. the bucket is just a metaphorical description for removing the energy.

ZPE is the lowest level of energy possible. hence it's an empty bucket. the lowest energy is non-zero but in a system of measurement for energy it is zero. if the lowest temperature possible was 273.15 degrees kelvin, kinda like a Zero Point Temperature, then in the Celsius system it would be an empy bucket, although it's not empty.

the method of extracting energy is always going to be an impossibility with regards the laws of physics - my analogy was the only way I could think of as a possible method.

the particles pop in and out of existence in such a way that energy is not violated.

then theoretically the energy could be drained but the total energy of ALL ZPE would drop, meaning that somewhere somehow energy would be removed.

exotic particles weren't shown destroying the universe, rather they were shown to violently interact with matter, creating dangerous radiation. in Trinity the solar system (and universe) weren't destroyed because of exotic particles, but because the energy levels were wildly unpredictable,

mckay said that if those particles get to subspace, they would destroy the universe in a blink (Mckay and ms. miller).
additionally the exotic particles breached the field as hard radiation, meaning that it decayed, so the universe couln't really be affected.

the exotic particles created by the experiment didn't destroy that universe (or even that solar system - though were threatening life there as a result of the radiation)

they were tearing up that universe. but the particles can't destroy it that fast. it's not insta-kill. it's a buildup of impefections and law defying untill a threshold is reached and the universe collapses. a ZPM can draw a whole lot of energy before it collapses, before the threshold is reached, and our universe is a whole lot bigger than that microverse.

the threshold for our universe is simply higher.

[Zatnikitelman]

I just had an interesting thought about the ZPM and how they work based on earlier comments in this thread. If they do contain an area of lowest possible energy, then they are extracting energy rather than emitting it and as the energy makes its way to the ZPM, it's made to do useful work. Think of it in terms of electronics. Typically, you'll supply a positive voltage to a circuit to make it work. Well, if you're using a battery as your power source, then the positive voltage is basically sucking the electricity through the circuit rather than pushing it through.

[Voyager_sput]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I read somewhere that ZPM's operate on the principle of quantum foaming. Hench, as energy is drawn from the ZPM, it opens and closes microscopic funnels into the "bottleverse" to extract energy. The more the ZPM is taxed, the more of these funnels are created.

The very process of extracting energy from ZPM's causes the creation of exotic particles, basically just particles that defy the known laws of physics. Eventually the "bottleverse" becomes so filled with these particles that it becomes harder and harder to extract energy from it. This is described as entropy. Simmilar to what would happen to an icecube in water. Eventually the water gets so cold, or the cube so small, that the amount of energy transferred to the water is reduced to zero. At that point the ZPM reaches maximum entropy and can no longer be used. I'm not sure what maximum entropy means in SG terms. When the ZPM's they designated as depleted could very will still be able to generate enough power to run your local TV set (or a lightbulb), but just wouldn't be usefull in any other capacity.

[Mister Oragahn]

If the ZPM should really deliver an infinity of energy, here's some reason why it can only deliver a fixed amount of joules:

It's possible that a ZPM being "depleted" is actually the symptom of a saturation of exotic particles inside the ZPM's subspace bubble. At some point there are too many of those particles and it becomes impossible to extract any energy. You may have too much of those particles to transport energy to the point in space where said energy can transition from the subspace bubble into whatever valve system the ZPM uses to deposit energy into realspace.
You may even have the formation of an exotic cork cap of some sort.

Therefore, it would mean the ZPM keeps its own waste in exotic particles. To "recharge" the ZPM - more like clean it up - you would actually have to empty the exotic particles, likely at a slow pace, and perhaps into some specific layer of subspace.

If not, the ZPM would be best left as it is, which would mean a depleted ZPM would like an ecological disaster in waiting, a bit like used nuclear metals.

Or perhaps it could be possible to collapse the its bubble altogether.

EDIT: Oh, so much for not reading the entire thread. That's almost what Voyager Sput said. ^^

[escyos]

i think the thing wit ZPM's and the Icarus type planets is the amount of power that can be generated in a short amount of time, not the total amount of power it can provide. which fits in with the unstable core exploding thing, you take out all the inner mass, which is the converted energy, and it explodes. in a similar manner to how carter blew up a star, by removing some of its mass.

the Icarus type planet is capable of providing the power needed to connect in that few seconds required, not for continual energy production, the same with ZPM's you can extract a huge amount of power (all of it) in a few seconds (see: mckay and mrs miller)

[webxro]

and we have magi-tech that makes naquadria vanish and energy appear and Carter walk on water in a jogging suit whit a pogo stick

[lordofseas]

and we have magi-tech that makes naquadria vanish and energy appear and Carter walk on water in a jogging suit whit a pogo stick

I like pogo sticks.

[thekillman]

icarus blew up because the weaponsfire destabilized the energy extraction process. this caused uncontrollable reactions within the naquahdriah which eventually led to a chain reaction which ignited more naquahdriah than required.

[webxro]

and the lucian alliance planet blew because they never mapped the naq properly

[escyos]

i think firing a few railgun blasts at a planet could have destabilised it,im sure the weapons were aimed at more important things, the extraction of energy caused the explosion, removing the mass make it explode, like the sun carter blew up

[webxro]

you can't remove mass if you extract energy , just think at solar power and eolian

[escyos]

you are aware that under nuclear reactions matter becomes energy, think of uranium. remove too much mass and the planet....well as we have seen twice, it explodes