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Starsaber
June 5th, 2010, 12:08 PM
So, they couldn't beam soldiers directly into the Lucian Alliance pyramid because of beam shielding. That makes sense. So rather than beaming them down outside the pyramid, they used ships. I can buy that too if the beam shield extended for a distance around the base.

Where the problem comes in is that they used 302s to land the soldiers instead. That doesn't make much sense to me, because, even assuming that the 302 pilots were trained in infantry tactics, that's only 2 people per ship (1 each based on Jack saying they lost two men when the planet went up).

It's been 5 years since the last new Earth ship design (304). Even if they didn't go into detail, why couldn't they have shown a new troop lander ship with a few 302s as escorts?

Nemises
June 5th, 2010, 12:09 PM
or they could have used the asgard beams to destroy the shields first.

Major_Griff
June 5th, 2010, 12:10 PM
I was under the impression that they beamed troops down outside of the shielding. Carter says something like 'get the soldiers out of the base so we can beam them up' or something. I think the fighters were just for air support in the event that the LA had gliders.

Gollumpus
June 5th, 2010, 12:11 PM
I assumed they were using the 302's to soften up the target while other troops were beamed down to the surface for a ground assault.

regards,
G.

JustAnotherVoice
June 5th, 2010, 12:15 PM
Aren't all modern ground invasions preceded and supported by airstrikes? Why would invading/assaulting another planet be any different?

BadOnion
June 5th, 2010, 12:18 PM
What I don't understand is why they didn't beam the pilots out of the 302s before they left.

Starsaber
June 5th, 2010, 12:20 PM
Aren't all modern ground invasions preceded and supported by airstrikes? Why would invading/assaulting another planet be any different?

I don't have a problem with 302s being used for that role, but since they didn't talk about beaming troops down, I was under the impression they were landing troops using 302s, which then took off again as air support.

And if the 302s weren't on the ground, why couldn't they have beamed the pilots off them before jumping out?

Major_Griff
June 5th, 2010, 12:22 PM
What I don't understand is why they didn't beam the pilots out of the 302s before they left.

For that matter they could have beamed the 302's back into the fighter bay.

Zatnikitelman
June 5th, 2010, 12:36 PM
Maybe because transporting takes time and it looked like Sam didn't even have a second left to get the GH back into Hyperspace.

JustAnotherVoice
June 5th, 2010, 12:37 PM
For that matter they could have beamed the 302's back into the fighter bay.

How is SG on the physics of beaming objects in motion? It's one of those things I don't pay attention to, but when situations like this come up, it's a noodle scratcher. Trying to beam a 302 in flight, back into the bay could end up pretty ugly if the object stays in motion after rematerialisation.

erotavlas
June 5th, 2010, 12:40 PM
I thought the remaining 302's were still inside the shielded area and that was why Sam could not beam them out. Perhaps the shielded area was bigger than the area of the pyramid itself. Which is why they needed the 302's otherwise beaming ground troops outside the shield would mean a long walk, plus no air strike.

Major_Griff
June 5th, 2010, 12:41 PM
How is SG on the physics of beaming objects in motion? It's one of those things I don't pay attention to, but when situations like this come up, it's a noodle scratcher. Trying to beam a 302 in flight, back into the bay could end up pretty ugly if the object stays in motion after rematerialisation.

Idk, in another thread someone said something about people on a planet are moving because the planet is rotating and orbit a star and they don't go flying when they beam to a ship moving a different speed. If you take that into account, there has to be some kind of motion stabilizer within the beaming technology. Also in Off the Grid SG-1 is sitting down and get beamed to Odyssey standing up, so it's not like beaming has always been realistic anyway.

Stormtrooper
June 5th, 2010, 01:11 PM
What was the point in dispatching 302s to fire at the Lucian Alliance base? Did Carter want to blow up the planet? Because if she did, why not fire the Hammond's main weapons at the base and get the hell out of there?

What was it to Carter if the LA reached Destiny? For all intents and purposes, Destiny was prepared for their arrival (well, not so much, but you get the picture). So what was Carter's mission? Yeah, to seize control of the LA base in order to send qualified personnel and supplies to Destiny.

Mission accomplished? Well, not really :S

You know, Carter has to be the worst starship captain ever. TPTB are doing a disservice to the character by having her serve the plot in such idiotic ways.

It was also very convenient the complete absence of Ha'tak vessels in the vicinity to protect the LA base.

somme
June 5th, 2010, 01:28 PM
She's couldn't beam the the pilots or the 302's out because they were still in the area shielded by the 'jamming' technology.

I thought her mission was to distract/take over the base as best she could whilst Destiny prepared for invasion. Or if Sam could take over the base, then well, that'd be all well and good.

TBTB haven't done her a disservice at all, it was just one of those times where the odds were stacked against her. Remember, not everything is win-able.

JustAnotherVoice
June 5th, 2010, 01:40 PM
What was the point in dispatching 302s to fire at the Lucian Alliance base? Did Carter want to blow up the planet? Because if she did, why not fire the Hammond's main weapons at the base and get the hell out of there?

What was it to Carter if the LA reached Destiny? For all intents and purposes, Destiny was prepared for their arrival (well, not so much, but you get the picture). So what was Carter's mission? Yeah, to seize control of the LA base in order to send qualified personnel and supplies to Destiny.

Mission accomplished? Well, not really :S

You know, Carter has to be the worst starship captain ever. TPTB are doing a disservice to the character by having her serve the plot in such idiotic ways.

It was also very convenient the complete absence of Ha'tak vessels in the vicinity to protect the LA base.

Air superiority. 302s would be used to negate any potential Death Gliders the Alliance could have had. Beaming men outside of the interference grid only to have Gliders turn them into ash wouldn't have been all that great for the mission.

As for the worst starship captain ever:
Caldwell - had a Go'uld symbiot for a while, and nearly got away with blowing up Atlantis.
Landry - Unending 'nuff said.
Ellis - nuked the Asurans, missed a few, and REALLY pissed them off, and nearly lost Atlantis in the subsequent escape.
Ronson - ejected an unstable drive core and EMP'd half a planet, nearly losing his ship and making Earth ANOTHER enemy in the process.
Pendergast - went crosseyed listening to Jackson and waited until the satellite's shields went up before firing(Ethon), leading to the Ori gaining ground in the MW.

Darkness And Light
June 5th, 2010, 01:44 PM
I'm pretty sure the point of her mission was also to save Rush/Telford's body, aside from stopping the LA.

RJLCyberPunk
June 5th, 2010, 02:01 PM
I thought the remaining 302's were still inside the shielded area and that was why Sam could not beam them out. Perhaps the shielded area was bigger than the area of the pyramid itself. Which is why they needed the 302's otherwise beaming ground troops outside the shield would mean a long walk, plus no air strike.

That's how I understood it as well. By the way was it just me or was Amanda using her black dyed hair for her other show on this episode?

Avenger
June 5th, 2010, 02:15 PM
They beamed troops down outside the affects of the jamming field. The 302s would have been providing air support for the troops as they advanced to the base.

wingsabre
June 5th, 2010, 02:54 PM
I'm more annoyed that they didn't even try the rings. It's a pyramid. Pyramids usually have ring platforms to ring people in. When the Ori had shields, and couldn't be beamed in, Daniel Jackson was able to ring in. To me, that's a major plot hole. Plus, all 304s have a ring platform. Unlike stargates, humans know how to build them.

jelgate
June 5th, 2010, 02:57 PM
I'm more annoyed that they didn't even try the rings. It's a pyramid. Pyramids usually have ring platforms to ring people in. When the Ori had shields, and couldn't be beamed in, Daniel Jackson was able to ring in. To me, that's a major plot hole. Plus, all 304s have a ring platform. Unlike stargates, humans know how to build them.

Rings can't be used if shields are up. Numerous SG1 episodes said that. In Fleash and Blood, Daniel got aborad the ship via rings because of flucations in Ori shields. And it was stated in this episode the pyramid was shieldied

lordofseas
June 5th, 2010, 03:23 PM
Air superiority. 302s would be used to negate any potential Death Gliders the Alliance could have had. Beaming men outside of the interference grid only to have Gliders turn them into ash wouldn't have been all that great for the mission.

As for the worst starship captain ever:
Caldwell - had a Go'uld symbiot for a while, and nearly got away with blowing up Atlantis.

Not really his fault, and after the symbiote was removed, he was much more tolerable.


Landry - Unending 'nuff said.

First time commanding a battlecruiser.


Ellis - nuked the Asurans, missed a few, and REALLY pissed them off, and nearly lost Atlantis in the subsequent escape.

He was following the chain of command, and this came from the higher ups.


Ronson - ejected an unstable drive core and EMP'd half a planet, nearly losing his ship and making Earth ANOTHER enemy in the process.

Note: They aren't our enemies. The shields were up, which means the ship wasn't lost.


Pendergast - went crosseyed listening to Jackson and waited until the satellite's shields went up before firing(Ethon), leading to the Ori gaining ground in the MW.

And lost his life for it. Also, he was trying to save Dr. Jackson, which is why he didn't destroy the satellite. However, it wasn't the best move in the book.

Stormtrooper
June 5th, 2010, 03:26 PM
I'm more annoyed that they didn't even try the rings. It's a pyramid. Pyramids usually have ring platforms to ring people in. When the Ori had shields, and couldn't be beamed in, Daniel Jackson was able to ring in. To me, that's a major plot hole. Plus, all 304s have a ring platform. Unlike stargates, humans know how to build them.

Yep, that's the kind of mission cut out for SG-1. Where's SG-1?


Rings can't be used if shields are up. Numerous SG1 episodes said that. In Fleash and Blood, Daniel got aborad the ship via rings because of flucations in Ori shields. And it was stated in this episode the pyramid was shieldied

Shielded against beaming technology, so I'm thinking some sort of jamming device was active, not shields. Why would the LA keep shields running 24/7 (assuming they had shielding - Icarus Base didn't)? They were clearly unaware of Carter's attack.

dosed150
June 5th, 2010, 04:13 PM
I don't have a problem with 302s being used for that role, but since they didn't talk about beaming troops down, I was under the impression they were landing troops using 302s, which then took off again as air support.

And if the 302s weren't on the ground, why couldn't they have beamed the pilots off them before jumping out?

seriously, your not told every detail so you make that assumption, 302's obviously can't carry troops, so its pretty obvious troops would be beamed

Starsaber
June 5th, 2010, 06:10 PM
By the way was it just me or was Amanda using her black dyed hair for her other show on this episode?

I think it was more of a dark blond/light brown. Probably the closest she could justify getting to blond for so few scenes. I think it was about the same in Air too.


seriously, your not told every detail so you make that assumption, 302's obviously can't carry troops, so its pretty obvious troops would be beamed

If the pilot and backseater were trained for ground combat, they could land and get out. Of course, unless SG-1 was in the 302s, that probably wouldn't be enough people to really do anything :p

PG15
June 6th, 2010, 12:59 AM
If they had used the rings on the ship, then the troops would materialize at a ring station in the base, right?

That's a bottleneck, and those stations would probably be guarded. Bad idea.

thekillman
June 6th, 2010, 01:12 AM
yes, rings are the first place i'd place a one-way shield and a group of soldiers with machineguns.


the F-302's where there for vital air support

eliteaceman
June 6th, 2010, 01:23 AM
What was the point in dispatching 302s to fire at the Lucian Alliance base? Did Carter want to blow up the planet? Because if she did, why not fire the Hammond's main weapons at the base and get the hell out of there?

What was it to Carter if the LA reached Destiny? For all intents and purposes, Destiny was prepared for their arrival (well, not so much, but you get the picture). So what was Carter's mission? Yeah, to seize control of the LA base in order to send qualified personnel and supplies to Destiny.

Mission accomplished? Well, not really :S

You know, Carter has to be the worst starship captain ever. TPTB are doing a disservice to the character by having her serve the plot in such idiotic ways.

It was also very convenient the complete absence of Ha'tak vessels in the vicinity to protect the LA base.

The Planet didn't explode from the 302's, It was cause by the dialing of the gate.

The Core of the planet became unstable due to the gate activating, same as Icarus.

Rush: Not without blowing everything up.

They were working on dialing Destiny without blowing up the planet.... but they had to evacuate same as Icarus

J-Whitt Remastered
June 6th, 2010, 06:52 AM
yes, rings are the first place i'd place a one-way shield and a group of soldiers with machineguns.

That's a good point. However, I'm sure that they would be able to beam something down there to find out. Some sort of camera with a transmitter so that they could see if anyone picked it up. If there was someone that picked it up send a few grenades or something.

dgh64
June 6th, 2010, 06:56 AM
They needed fighters because the LA has quite a few death gliders left behind by the Goa'uld.

And they used 302's and not something more advanced because it's something the audience is familiar with, while if they had said 307's or something else then they would've had to take extra time to say "It's a 302 with puddle-jumper engines and miniaturized Asgard energy weapons."

Stormtrooper
June 6th, 2010, 07:05 AM
If they had used the rings on the ship, then the troops would materialize at a ring station in the base, right?

That's a bottleneck, and those stations would probably be guarded. Bad idea.

Except they weren't expecting them. One SG team member wearing a Kull Warrior suit or one of those shiny Sodan cloaking devices would have put the LA base out of commission.

What happened to the Tau'ri's ingenuity? Did it go out the window along side SGU? :D


The Planet didn't explode from the 302's, It was cause by the dialing of the gate.

The Core of the planet became unstable due to the gate activating, same as Icarus.

Rush: Not without blowing everything up.

They were working on dialing Destiny without blowing up the planet.... but they had to evacuate same as Icarus

Both sneak attacks directly or indirectly caused the naquadria planets to explode.

Some sort of covert operation was required to take over the LA base, but instead Carter arrived with guns blazing and acted much like the LA scum in the Air episode.

Starsaber
June 6th, 2010, 07:20 AM
They needed fighters because the LA has quite a few death gliders left behind by the Goa'uld.

And they used 302's and not something more advanced because it's something the audience is familiar with, while if they had said 307's or something else then they would've had to take extra time to say "It's a 302 with puddle-jumper engines and miniaturized Asgard energy weapons."

They wouldn't have to give any details. They could have just said 305s and shown one or two ships of a new design flying out of the Hammond's hangars with 302s escorting them. I bet someone here would get a high res screencap and figure out everything about them from their one second of screen time. :P :samanime27:

dgh64
June 6th, 2010, 07:46 AM
...and all the viewers who don't spend all day on the forums would be like "Wait! What was that? Where'd that come from???"

I had the same reaction when Atlantis was stranded drifting in space, and McKay suggested they use the experimental hyperdrive-equipped puddle jumper. I hadn't paid close enough attention and missed the part where it was invented several episodes earlier, and I thought the writers had just pulled something out of their butts again.

Also, there was only 1 shot of the 302's, launching from the hangar, and the shots we see of Hammond are pretty short. I think they're trying to conserve their special-effects budget as much as they can.

Introducing a new better-than-a-302 fighter doesn't do anything to advance the plot. The only purpose would be to say "hey look at us we're continuing to invent new things."

Starsaber
June 6th, 2010, 07:52 AM
Introducing a new better-than-a-302 fighter doesn't do anything to advance the plot. The only purpose would be to say "hey look at us we're continuing to invent new things."

I was thinking more along the lines of our equivalent of a Puddle Jumper or Tel'tak, not a new fighter. I can see where you're coming from though.

dosed150
June 6th, 2010, 08:12 AM
I think it was more of a dark blond/light brown. Probably the closest she could justify getting to blond for so few scenes. I think it was about the same in Air too.



If the pilot and backseater were trained for ground combat, they could land and get out. Of course, unless SG-1 was in the 302s, that probably wouldn't be enough people to really do anything :p

now you mention it, pretty sure in the star wars eu there is a special forces unit that does use x wings to get where their going, always seemed a bit stupid to me though

Starsaber
June 6th, 2010, 08:19 AM
now you mention it, pretty sure in the star wars eu there is a special forces unit that does use x wings to get where their going, always seemed a bit stupid to me though

If you're talking about Wraith Squadron, it's not as much that as they were set up to be a commando team that could also fly fighters. They wouldn't usually fly fighters to their ground assignments.

Ed
June 6th, 2010, 09:02 AM
the wraiths usually operated out of a cruiser of converted freighter and they never did planetary assaults.

Its known you can beam out of a 302 Daedalus recovered Shepard and mckay in intruder using the beams even without sensors.

The reason it was done was to give the parallel to young not sacrificing two people while carter did

Sami_
June 6th, 2010, 10:34 AM
How is SG on the physics of beaming objects in motion? It's one of those things I don't pay attention to, but when situations like this come up, it's a noodle scratcher. Trying to beam a 302 in flight, back into the bay could end up pretty ugly if the object stays in motion after rematerialisation.

Teal'c was beamed from space into the Asgard ship in Nemesis when he was moving away from it in space.

I don't recall off the top of my head what his momentum was after he was beamed, I think it might have been zero though.

PG15
June 6th, 2010, 02:27 PM
Except they weren't expecting them. One SG team member wearing a Kull Warrior suit or one of those shiny Sodan cloaking devices would have put the LA base out of commission.

What happened to the Tau'ri's ingenuity? Did it go out the window along side SGU? :D

You know as well as I do that if this were real life every SG team would be wearing those Sodan cloaks and Kull Warrior suits the minute they acquired them. But then, I don't think spending the last few seasons of SG1/SGA watching invisible/invulnerable people would be any fun.

And to be honest, considering how chaotic the LA government is, if I were them I'd prepare for an attack at anytime, because you never know when a rival warlord might get drunk, lose his inhibitions, and try to attack you.

major davis
June 6th, 2010, 02:29 PM
Why 302s...

Because their STINKING AWESOME THATS WHY!

JustAnotherVoice
June 6th, 2010, 07:54 PM
Not really his fault, and after the symbiote was removed, he was much more tolerable.

The point is he was implanted AND almost blew up the city.


First time commanding a battlecruiser.

General in the air force. Probably been a squadron commander in his career, if not a wing commander. Should know a thing or two about tactics, but it can be blamed on plot-induced-stupidity, so I'll let you have that one.


He was following the chain of command, and this came from the higher ups.

I don't deny this. It was the missing a few blocks and accelerating the Asuran's plans that put him in the list. IIRC, some of the Atlantis non military peeps questioned this decision from the get go.


Note: They aren't our enemies. The shields were up, which means the ship wasn't lost.

"Nearly". Almost getting fragged on a first contact doesn't scream great decision making, not to mention his deliberate antagonism of their military commander (hell, his smugness alone would have been enough justification to blast the ship out of the sky). You don't taunt the man who has you at gunpoint when your shields are weakened, after you accidentally EMP'd half his planet.


And lost his life for it. Also, he was trying to save Dr. Jackson, which is why he didn't destroy the satellite. However, it wasn't the best move in the book.

Acceptable losses for DJ (one man vs a planet & beyond), but he does get points for going down with his ship.

Besides, the point was to compare Carter's "worst starship captain" bit to the worst that the others have done. Blowing up a planet doesn't seem too bad when it's compared to pissing the Asurans off or EMPing a populated planet, or giving the Ori more power.