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View Full Version : Camile Wray is delusional!



Nemises
June 5th, 2010, 11:51 AM
Does she really think the LA came onboard to negotiate ?

They want destiny and will kill everyone if they have to.

Coronach
June 5th, 2010, 11:57 AM
I assume you think hostage negotiators in real life are delusional as well?

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 12:00 PM
I think that Wray is like a lot of people who have been relatively sheltered from violence, or military decisions. She seems like one of those people that really do believe that you can sit down and talk to everyone and that everyone must understand and defer to her believed authority. Telford's eyeroll at Wray's explanation of civilian rule over the military and how Young would take it seems to sum up how other people that are more in a position to judge what's really going on see things. I'm hoping that at some point Wray opens her eyes. Maybe the fact that she knows what she;s doing is actually helping Young, rather than being yet another bid for power, is stepping towards that? I think Wrat likely can't wrap her head around the idea that she could very well be killed, much the way some people will continue to get into dangerous situations because they simply can't see how dangerous it is.

Edited to add: I don't think hostage negotiotions are delusional, I just think that Wray hasn't really grasped how serious the situation is.

JustAnotherVoice
June 5th, 2010, 12:12 PM
I assume you think hostage negotiators in real life are delusional as well?

Theres a difference between negotiating with panicked, desperate people who want a way out and a PMC with no exit strategy other than death to all those in their way.

Given our knowledge of the Lucian Alliance, Wray is hopelessly optimistic if she hopes to talk them down.

Coronach
June 5th, 2010, 12:15 PM
Theres a difference between hostage negotiators who want more than total control and a PMC with no exit strategy other than death to all those in their way.

Given our knowledge of the Lucian Alliance, Wray is hopelessly optimistic if she hopes to talk them down.

She doesn't, though. All she's done so far is act as a mediator in a hostage exchange...which is why I brought the example up. Sure, she'll probably try and negotiate further things after that and we can argue for 35+ pages about how awful and useless she is/isn't, but it hasn't happened yet and what she has done so far (obviously with Young's approval) is pretty typical of hostage situations.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 12:22 PM
She doesn't, though. All she's done so far is act as a mediator in a hostage exchange...which is why I brought the example up. Sure, she'll probably try and negotiate further things after that and we can argue for 35+ pages about how awful and useless she is/isn't, but it hasn't happened yet and what she has done so far (obviously with Young's approval) is pretty typical of hostage situations.

I don't believe that she's useless at all and, if I look at her efforts as more buying Young time and less trying to actually accomplish something concrete, I do believe she's quite useful. She's presented the idea that negotions, at least on some scale, are possible. Hostage negotiators don't necessarily go out looking for total agreement; it's more a matter of getting you to agree to something small and working from there. I think Young's smart to use her/let her do this, as it gives him another option if need be. What's gladdening to me is that she's actually working with Young, instead of at cross purposes. Let's see how long that lasts.

Coronach
June 5th, 2010, 12:25 PM
I don't believe that she's useless at all and, if I look at her efforts as more buying Young time and less trying to actually accomplish something concrete, I do believe she's quite useful. She's presented the idea that negotions, at least on some scale, are possible. Hostage negotiators don't necessarily go out looking for total agreement; it's more a matter of getting you to agree to something small and working from there. I think Young's smart to use her/let her do this, as it gives him another option if need be. What's gladdening to me is that she's actually working with Young, instead of at cross purposes. Let's see how long that lasts.

Oh, and I totally agree. The exchange of 4 hostages from each side is small in the scheme of things, but it's better than NOT getting those 4 people back. While Camille may be a bit naive in these types of situations, I cannot see how she's "delusional" for (as of yet) trying to negotiate an even trade. At least this way if Young decides to vent their compartments, they lose 4 less of their own people.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 12:26 PM
Oh, and I totally agree. The exchange of 4 hostages from each side is small in the scheme of things, but it's better than NOT getting those 4 people back. While Camille may be a bit naive in these types of situations, I cannot see how she's "delusional" for (as of yet) trying to negotiate an even trade. At least this way if Young decides to vent their compartments, they lose 4 less of their own people.

I believe 'delusional' is a poor choice of word. Naive, definitely, but not delusional.

Blackhole
June 5th, 2010, 12:27 PM
I think that Wray is like a lot of people who have been relatively sheltered from violence, or military decisions. She seems like one of those people that really do believe that you can sit down and talk to everyone and that everyone must understand and defer to her believed authority. Telford's eyeroll at Wray's explanation of civilian rule over the military and how Young would take it seems to sum up how other people that are more in a position to judge what's really going on see things. I'm hoping that at some point Wray opens her eyes. Maybe the fact that she knows what she;s doing is actually helping Young, rather than being yet another bid for power, is stepping towards that? I think Wrat likely can't wrap her head around the idea that she could very well be killed, much the way some people will continue to get into dangerous situations because they simply can't see how dangerous it is.

Edited to add: I don't think hostage negotiotions are delusional, I just think that Wray hasn't really grasped how serious the situation is.

I agree, Wray is somewhat naïve; but I also think she has grown a serious pair and is quite courageous. Given that she was nearly killed by Greer in the prior episode; a petite, five foot nothing woman who is willing to confront both Young and especially Greer in a direct physical fashion and then offers to negotiate with the LA shows some serious cajones as far as I am concerned. I might not think her approach has any chance of success but I definitely admire her bravery.

Young probably realizes that it buys him some time if he lets her try and I can’t but think he might not like Wray’s meddling but can’t but respect her conviction and courage.

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
June 5th, 2010, 12:31 PM
i always think of that one little line from the fifth element when bruce willis' character goes into the one and kills the alien leader with one shot and he's like "anyone else wanna negoiate?" i would love to have seen scott or young go in there and just shoot kiva in the head.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 12:32 PM
I agree, Wray is somewhat naïve; but I also think she has grown a serious pair and is quite courageous. Given that she was nearly killed by Greer in the prior episode; a petite, five foot nothing woman who is willing to confront both Young and especially Greer in a direct physical fashion and then offers to negotiate with the LA shows some serious cajones as far as I am concerned. I might not think her approach has any chance of success but I definitely admire her bravery. Young probably realizes that it buys him some time if he lets her try.Wray definitely has a set of brass balls on her, no doubt there, which only makes me hope more that she ends up more solidly behind Young after this

JustAnotherVoice
June 5th, 2010, 12:33 PM
She doesn't, though. All she's done so far is act as a mediator in a hostage exchange...which is why I brought the example up. Sure, she'll probably try and negotiate further things after that and we can argue for 35+ pages about how awful and useless she is/isn't, but it hasn't happened yet and what she has done so far (obviously with Young's approval) is pretty typical of hostage situations.

Hostage negotiators go in with the end goal of talking the situation down, trying to resolve the issue with words (promises of safe passage, compromises within reason etc). They only resort to dynamic finishes when all else has failed. Wray stated up front that the dynamic approach had failed.

The hostage exchange is the first part of trying to talk the situation down - a sign of good faith on the negotiator's part. She clearly states that she wants to "act as an intermediary to resolve the issue without further bloodshed" which really sounds like she is trying to talk them down. The problem with this is that Wray can't talk them down without screwing herself over. Kiva has no exit strategy other than death or total control.

Young approves, from the way I saw the scene, because it buys him and Telford time to make their move, not because he believes she could actually get them to put their guns down.

Blackhole
June 5th, 2010, 12:39 PM
Wray definitely has a set of brass balls on her, no doubt there, which only makes me hope more that she ends up more solidly behind Young after this

I agree. Any really good commander may not like people like Wray and others that challenge his decisions but have to realize that they are necessary to keep him on his toes and will in the long run make for a better running ship. I don't know if Young is yet that caliber of commander but I would like to think he will become one.

blackluster
June 5th, 2010, 12:49 PM
The hostage exchange is the first part of trying to talk the situation down - a sign of good faith on the negotiator's part. She clearly states that she wants to "act as an intermediary to resolve the issue without further bloodshed" which really sounds like she is trying to talk them down. The problem with this is that Wray can't talk them down without screwing herself over. Kiva has no exit strategy other than death or total control.How the hell do they know that unless they talk to the woman for crying out loud. That is specifically why Wray speaking up then was so important. If she can figure out what they want or how far their intentions go then that is the beginning of the solution, because they sure as heck aren't going anywhere and running in guns blazing isn't the best solution in the case regardless of what the gung ho mentality would suggest.

Nemises
June 5th, 2010, 12:53 PM
i always think of that one little line from the fifth element when bruce willis' character goes into the one and kills the alien leader with one shot and he's like "anyone wanna negoiate?" i would love to have seen scott or young go in there and just shoot kiva in the head.

+1
Seconded
Agreed
This

JustAnotherVoice
June 5th, 2010, 01:05 PM
How the hell do they know that unless they talk to the woman for crying out loud.

The moment the boarded, when Young threatened to vent that atmosphere, what did she say? That's right, "then they should have" and moments later, there was a running gun battle.

Total control? The first time she spoke to Young, she offered him the opportunity to "stay aboard" and help or relocation onto a habitable planet. "Lay down your weapons and join us." That doesn't sound like an exercise in power sharing to me.

So, how the hell did they know? That's how.

blackluster
June 5th, 2010, 01:12 PM
Total control? The first time she spoke to Young, she offered him the opportunity to "stay aboard" and help or relocation onto a habitable planet. "Lay down your weapons and join us." That doesn't sound like an exercise in power sharing to me.As I recall, that was after Young threatened them. As long as those two were speaking to each other, the only way the situation was ever going to go was escalating until one side got really serious and then lot's of people die. Thanks to Wray, an alternative was presented which didn't involve kill or be killed. I don't see how Young would ever have gotten 4 people back without a scratch without a shot being fired. Since that solution presented itself, the opportunity with TJ arose, all because someone was able to speak from a different perspective.

Nemises
June 5th, 2010, 01:16 PM
As I recall, that was after Young threatened them. As long as those two were speaking to each other, the only way the situation was ever going to go was escalating until one side got really serious and then lot's of people die. Thanks to Wray, an alternative was presented which didn't involve kill or be killed. I don't see how Young would ever have gotten 4 people back without a scratch without a shot being fired. Since that solution presented itself, the opportunity with TJ arose, all because someone was able to speak from a different perspective.

I dont see how negotiations will work when both sides want total control and anything less will be considered as a defeat. The LA wont submit to earths authority on the ship and nor would earth to LA. The only solution i can see is that the LA get there butts kicked and lose most of there men and the remaining few agree to surrender.

Wray is only buying time and cant negotiate herself to victory.

JustAnotherVoice
June 5th, 2010, 01:24 PM
As I recall, that was after Young threatened them. As long as those two were speaking to each other, the only way the situation was ever going to go was escalating until one side got really serious and then lot's of people die. Thanks to Wray, an alternative was presented which didn't involve kill or be killed. I don't see how Young would ever have gotten 4 people back without a scratch without a shot being fired. Since that solution presented itself, the opportunity with TJ arose, all because someone was able to speak from a different perspective.

Young threatened the people in the room when they gated in, then the gun battle.

She offered him the deal, then he responded with a reminder of his ability to vent.

You're jumping the gun too. Wray hasn't got the four hostages yet. Yes, Wray opened lines of communication, but I feel that she honestly believed that she could talk them out. TJ has done more for the hostages than Wray, because I believe that she would have talked to (or been forced to) Young and requested medical supplies regardless of whether Wray had made contact.

But BOTH sides are using the "negotiations" to buy time for Telford - Wray is quite possibly the only person who thinks non-violence is the answer. Young's hoping that Telford can break the deadlock, while Kiva hopes he can find a way to dislodge Young and his men.

blackluster
June 5th, 2010, 01:32 PM
I dont see how negotiations will work when both sides want total control and anything less will be considered as a defeat. The LA wont submit to earths authority on the ship and nor would earth to LA. The only solution i can see is that the LA get there butts kicked and lose most of there men and the remaining few agree to surrender.That mentality is actually defeatist in itself, since as much as we love the good guys, the LA are not going to 'get their butts kicked' without the good guys taking very heavy losses. The opening engagement proved this. As Rush even stated in Faith, even a loss of 11 people was unacceptable. Considering that they don't know what the LA knows, or that the LA may not be completely aware of the physical situation, I believe it is foolhardy to call all negotiating useless. Even if Wray can't get the LA to surrender, she can significantly reduce the body count. If you were doing a cost equation of lives/resources saved with talking instead of bullets, it makes practical sense.


You're jumping the gun too. Wray hasn't got the four hostages yet. Yes, Wray opened lines of communication, but I feel that she honestly believed that she could talk them out. TJ has done more for the hostages than Wray, because I believe that she would have talked to (or been forced to) Young and requested medical supplies regardless of whether Wray had made contact.I'm not so sure. If the only person Kiva ever spoke to was Young, then she'll temper her decision making like she is dealing with a tough nut that needs to be cracked which means hostage executions and who knows what else. Now that she has spoken to Wray, she is aware that there are other schools of thought in operation that can be used instead of killing people. Granted she may desire control eventually, but a more time for a tempered response from the SGC guys must certainly be better than everyone going out in a blaze of bullets and C4.

GateroomGuard
June 5th, 2010, 02:00 PM
Negotiations are only useful in this case to buy time. Kiva will accept nothing less than total control of Destiny or the deaths of all her people taking as many of the Destiny crew as possible. Young offers her and all her people a chance to surrender and be treated well, she declines and procedes to attack. She kills and takes hostages of the Destiny crew then procedes to tell Young to surrender, or she'll start killing hostages.

Now Kiva promised that if Young's people laid down their arms they'd be allowed to stay on the Destiny or they'd be allowed to go to the next habitable planet. Of course she also promised Rush that she wouldn't kill him, only for Rush to find out that any Lucian Alliance soldier would still kill him. Kiva's word is about as good as dirt. And if Kiva was being honest Young still has to realize that he is surrendering his entire crew, including a great deal of women, to a band of pirates. Death would be preferable than living at the hands of pirates like them.

So Young's only options are to kill Kiva and any of her leadership that refuse surrender until whatever is left of the Lucian Alliance decides to surrender. Wray is naive if she thinks this will be resolved peacefully, but I hope she is smart enough to know that what she's doing is buying time.

JustAnotherVoice
June 5th, 2010, 02:03 PM
I'm not so sure. If the only person Kiva ever spoke to was Young, then she'll temper her decision making like she is dealing with a tough nut that needs to be cracked which means hostage executions and who knows what else. Now that she has spoken to Wray, she is aware that there are other schools of thought in operation that can be used instead of killing people. Granted she may desire control eventually, but a more time for a tempered response from the SGC guys must certainly be better than everyone going out in a blaze of bullets and C4.

I know we haven't seen much of Kiva, but don't forget that she herself is a tough nut(case). Why? (a) she killed the guy as an example for Rush (b) she's a senior figure in the Alliance, given that she has her own command and heads up quite an important mission.

She probably isn't thinking like the usual criminals that hostage negotiators deal with. She's thinking like a military leader, and Young probably sees her as a terrorist. She knows Young is a military man so won't give up without a fight, and Young knows her arrival on the ship is a the roll of the dice, looking for a hard six - all or nothing.

She's not stupid, well, she can't be an idiot and still have command no matter who her daddy is. She wants control, and there's no "eventually" about it, thus she was buying time for Telford to do "his mission". She's wisely using TJ as leverage against Young (getting medical supplies), rather than talking to Wray and her other school of thought. "How is it leverage?" I assume would be the next question. Telford took the time to point out that TJ is the medic, rather than preggo (appealing to Kiva's humanity). Right now, TJ is the most important person on the ship - she's the only person who is invaluable to both sides in the long term. Kiva knows that Young can't afford to lose her or put her in danger. The fact that TJ bears the first child of Destiny wouldn't be lost on Kiva either - you'd have to be pretty damned cold to let one of your own (father or not) die like that.

RJLCyberPunk
June 5th, 2010, 02:03 PM
Negotiations are only useful in this case to buy time. Kiva will accept nothing less than total control of Destiny or the deaths of all her people taking as many of the Destiny crew as possible. Young offers her and all her people a chance to surrender and be treated well, she declines and procedes to attack. She kills and takes hostages of the Destiny crew then procedes to tell Young to surrender, or she'll start killing hostages.

Now Kiva promised that if Young's people laid down their arms they'd be allowed to stay on the Destiny or they'd be allowed to go to the next habitable planet. Of course she also promised Rush that she wouldn't kill him, only for Rush to find out that any Lucian Alliance soldier would still kill him. Kiva's word is about as good as dirt. And if Kiva was being honest Young still has to realize that he is surrendering his entire crew, including a great deal of women, to a band of pirates. Death would be preferable than living at the hands of pirates like them.

So Young's only options are to kill Kiva and any of her leadership that refuse surrender until whatever is left of the Lucian Alliance decides to surrender. Wray is naive if she thinks this will be resolved peacefully, but I hope she is smart enough to know that what she's doing is buying time.

Sadly she doesn't she is a bonafide Chamberlain clone when it comes to situations like this.

GateroomGuard
June 5th, 2010, 02:08 PM
Sadly she doesn't she is a bonafide Chamberlain clone when it comes to situations like this.

You would think with her being the champions of the civillians she would be more worried about surrendering them to a band of murderous pirates. Who are likely to do what they will with the Destiny crew.

Avenger
June 5th, 2010, 02:12 PM
Does she really think the LA came onboard to negotiate ?

They want destiny and will kill everyone if they have to.

Even if the LA doesn't want to negotiate or has no intention of backing down, the process is buying time and providing information about what the LA wants to do and what lengths they will go to, so it is valuable as far as gaining intelligence on the LA. Also, you never know unless you try with these kinds of things.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 02:15 PM
I know we haven't seen much of Kiva, but don't forget that she herself is a tough nut(case). Why? (a) she killed the guy as an example for Rush (b) she's a senior figure in the Alliance, given that she has her own command and heads up quite an important mission.

She probably isn't thinking like the usual criminals that hostage negotiators deal with. She's thinking like a military leader, and Young probably sees her as a terrorist. She knows Young is a military man so won't give up without a fight, and Young knows her arrival on the ship is a the roll of the dice, looking for a hard six - all or nothing.

She's not stupid, well, she can't be an idiot and still have command no matter who her daddy is. She wants control, and there's no "eventually" about it, thus she was buying time for Telford to do "his mission". She's wisely using TJ as leverage against Young (getting medical supplies), rather than talking to Wray and her other school of thought. "How is it leverage?" I assume would be the next question. Telford took the time to point out that TJ is the medic, rather than preggo (appealing to Kiva's humanity). Right now, TJ is the most important person on the ship - she's the only person who is invaluable to both sides in the long term. Kiva knows that Young can't afford to lose her or put her in danger. The fact that TJ bears the first child of Destiny wouldn't be lost on Kiva either - you'd have to be pretty damned cold to let one of your own (father or not) die like that.You raise some very valid points and, like many criminals who go on to political power, it's not surprising that she is thinking along military lines. Like Young is willing to talk to Kiva, through Wray, if he can gain advantage, Kiva is also willing to talk but I think it;s just talk. Young is the most serious threat to her on the ship and the first chance she gets, she's going to kill him and I don't think Young is so naive as to see it any differently.


You would think with her being the champions of the civillians she would be more worried about surrendering them to a band of murderous pirates. Who are likely to do what they will with the Destiny crew.you would think so, wouldn't you? Then again, maybe Wray has so convinced herself of the "military dictatorship" she allegedly lives under that anything would better? I'd hope to think she smartens up in a hurry. As for the trailers, I've learned to not take much on trailers as what's said is taken out of context.

blackluster
June 5th, 2010, 02:25 PM
I know we haven't seen much of Kiva, but don't forget that she herself is a tough nut(case). Why? (a) she killed the guy as an example for Rush (b) she's a senior figure in the Alliance, given that she has her own command and heads up quite an important mission.

She probably isn't thinking like the usual criminals that hostage negotiators deal with. She's thinking like a military leader, and Young probably sees her as a terrorist. She knows Young is a military man so won't give up without a fight, and Young knows her arrival on the ship is a the roll of the dice, looking for a hard six - all or nothing.

She's not stupid, well, she can't be an idiot and still have command no matter who her daddy is. She wants control, and there's no "eventually" about it, thus she was buying time for Telford to do "his mission". She's wisely using TJ as leverage against Young (getting medical supplies), rather than talking to Wray and her other school of thought. "How is it leverage?" I assume would be the next question. Telford took the time to point out that TJ is the medic, rather than preggo (appealing to Kiva's humanity). Right now, TJ is the most important person on the ship - she's the only person who is invaluable to both sides in the long term. Kiva knows that Young can't afford to lose her or put her in danger. The fact that TJ bears the first child of Destiny wouldn't be lost on Kiva either - you'd have to be pretty damned cold to let one of your own (father or not) die like that.Granted, she is stone-cold, but Rush is the only one who knows that. Young doesn't know who or what she is. He is dealing with her in a standard manner which doesn't leave many options. Losing the gateroom was a major tactical loss that made Wray's presence required, whether Young liked it or not. Kiva also has to think of eventually's, because despite her gains, she is not holding the tactical advantage in terms of positioning. Both Young and Kiva have to be made to think that they have time which was only going to come via Wray. Otherwise the situation would have escalated well out of control. Were it not for Telford's swift actions, 4 people would have been executed already.

JustAnotherVoice
June 5th, 2010, 02:26 PM
You raise some very valid points and, like many criminals who go on to political power, it's not surprising that she is thinking along military lines. Like Young is willing to talk to Kiva, through Wray, if he can gain advantage, Kiva is also willing to talk but I think it;s just talk. Young is the most serious threat to her on the ship and the first chance she gets, she's going to kill him and I don't think Young is so naive as to see it any differently.

But Young isn't willing to talk. Like Kiva, he only wants to talk because he believe it will buy Telford time to "make his move". Young clearly believed in the futility when Wray asked to talk - he dismissively says "yeah yeah, I think you're right". Even when they talk about the hostage exchange, he says "but I think it's worth a shot."

The two commanders are keenly aware of how the other operates and both have probably realised that the negotiations is a stall tactic, even if they don't know they're both waiting on Telford. The ace that both commanders have up their sleeves is Telford.

lordofseas
June 5th, 2010, 02:46 PM
I think Wray did the right thing. She tried to open a line of communication between them, something that is commendable in any situation. The odds of the Lucian Alliance co-operating is highly unlikely, but just because the odds are against you doesn't mean you don't try anyways. And I think Wray has been trying to do the right thing for a long time: Protecting the welfare of the crew.

JustAnotherVoice
June 5th, 2010, 02:53 PM
Granted, she is stone-cold, but Rush is the only one who knows that. Young doesn't know who or what she is. He is dealing with her in a standard manner which doesn't leave many options. Losing the gateroom was a major tactical loss that made Wray's presence required, whether Young liked it or not. Kiva also has to think of eventually's, because despite her gains, she is not holding the tactical advantage in terms of positioning. Both Young and Kiva have to be made to think that they have time which was only going to come via Wray. Otherwise the situation would have escalated well out of control. Were it not for Telford's swift actions, 4 people would have been executed already.

Young knows that she's the one talking, and she's in the Alliance. It doesn't take much more than that to conclude that she's bad news, given the intel briefings he's had on the Alliance, and the SOP for American forces is "we don't negotiate with terrorists".

Young's tactical decisions were clouded from the start. He SHOULD have cut off life support (not depressurised) the gateroom AND decompressed the surrounding corridors - anything with a wall that could be cut through; all before they made it onto the ship. They deliberately left their only point of entry vulnerable, all for the sake of drama.

Kiva's position is stronger than you make it to be. Kiva holds the only medic on the ship, and those nifty "access all area" key like things, not to mention cutting torches, so can go through walls/make additional entry points if need be. It looks like she has more combat ready personnel at her disposal, and definately more weaponry.

As I've said, Wray's presence is not required by either party, since Kiva is using TJ as her negotiator and Young didn't believe Wray could talk fruitfully with her. It's just her own inflated sense of importance buying time for both commanders to execute their plans, which would be under way at any rate.

pipi
June 5th, 2010, 04:18 PM
Wray is a control freak. If her decisions gets people killed, then that's an added bonus for Young. Or even better, Wray has to be present during the prisoner swap, increasing the chance she gets killed. Even better.

blackluster
June 5th, 2010, 04:19 PM
Young knows that she's the one talking, and she's in the Alliance. It doesn't take much more than that to conclude that she's bad news, given the intel briefings he's had on the Alliance, and the SOP for American forces is "we don't negotiate with terrorists".

Young's tactical decisions were clouded from the start. He SHOULD have cut off life support (not depressurised) the gateroom AND decompressed the surrounding corridors - anything with a wall that could be cut through; all before they made it onto the ship. They deliberately left their only point of entry vulnerable, all for the sake of drama.I think the Lucian Allaince have elevated themselves well over terrorist status in last few show hours, which Earth must be aware of. On Young's tactics, I'll cut him some slack since he couldn't have known they could defeat the door locks that easily.


Kiva's position is stronger than you make it to be. Kiva holds the only medic on the ship, and those nifty "access all area" key like things, not to mention cutting torches, so can go through walls/make additional entry points if need be. It looks like she has more combat ready personnel at her disposal, and definately more weaponry.
I know how strong her position is, the point is though that it is not strong enough to dictate terms. They do not hold any critical systems besides the stargate which only helps them leave. Besides that they have personnel, but Young holds ship control, life support control, hydroponics, plus he has the means to conduct far more effective surveillance of them than they do of him. If she doesn't think that she has time and believes that Young will opt for attrition before negotiation, then the whole thing goes south very quickly.


As I've said, Wray's presence is not required by either party, since Kiva is using TJ as her negotiator and Young didn't believe Wray could talk fruitfully with her. It's just her own inflated sense of importance buying time for both commanders to execute their plans, which would be under way at any rate.This is only relevant in hindsight, since were it not for Wray, an effective dialogue would not be possible. TJ's current role is only such after the fact, because were it not for Wray's dialogue then instead of using her to bargain Kiva would be using TJ to strong arm Young.

JustAnotherVoice
June 5th, 2010, 04:45 PM
I think the Lucian Allaince have elevated themselves well over terrorist status in last few show hours, which Earth must be aware of. On Young's tactics, I'll cut him some slack since he couldn't have known they could defeat the door locks that easily.

America doesn't openly negotiate with it's enemies either, unless it's to demand unconditional surrender :p


I know how strong her position is, the point is though that it is not strong enough to dictate terms. They do not hold any critical systems besides the stargate which only helps them leave. Besides that they have personnel, but Young holds ship control, life support control, hydroponics, plus he has the means to conduct far more effective surveillance of them than they do of him. If she doesn't think that she has time and believes that Young will opt for attrition before negotiation, then the whole thing goes south very quickly.

The S.A.S. motto is who dares wins, the Roman playwright Terrence (in the 2nd century BC) wrote fortune favours the bold. My point here is that she doesn't need a particularly strong position to dictate terms. With the only medic, who isn't disposable, her position is strong enough to fight a delaying action until "her plan with Telford" reaches an acceptable position (which is what both commanders are doing).


This is only relevant in hindsight, since were it not for Wray, an effective dialogue would not be possible. TJ's current role is only such after the fact, because were it not for Wray's dialogue then instead of using her to bargain Kiva would be using TJ to strong arm Young.

I stated elsewhere that I believe that Kiva would have used TJ to negotiate regardless of Wray's offer, and I honestly believe this to be the case. Kiva was interested in saving her lieutenant, and TJ was the only one who could do that. Either way, TJ is being used to strong arm Young, because he can't risk losing his only full time medic, whether she's cooperating willingly or Kiva has a gun to her head.

Shai Hulud
June 5th, 2010, 05:22 PM
Anyone who believes that the Military do anything other than pay lip service to their government is delusional.

Wray needs to be shot, preferably sooner rather than later so that we dont have this terrible character forced on us for Season 2

marty2006
June 5th, 2010, 07:40 PM
I hope to christ they have her executed in the season finale. I utterly despise her and the sooner i witness her death the happier i shall be.

RJLCyberPunk
June 5th, 2010, 08:45 PM
Wow I know she can be a pain but I do not loathe her character that way, she is a politician and politicians always make interesting characters onscreen.

PG15
June 6th, 2010, 01:31 AM
^Don't mind them. Obviously anyone standing in the way of MILITARY BADASS ASSKICKING WOOOO should be executed as quickly as possible.

Obviously.


Anyone who believes that the Military do anything other than pay lip service to their government is delusional.

And anyone who believes otherwise and isn't at least a bit disturbed by it is equally so.

A military is not a good thing. It's merely an unfortunate necessary evil brought about by human ignorance, aggression, and greed.

EllieVee
June 6th, 2010, 02:04 AM
Granted, she is stone-cold, but Rush is the only one who knows that. Young doesn't know who or what she is. He is dealing with her in a standard manner which doesn't leave many options. Losing the gateroom was a major tactical loss that made Wray's presence required, whether Young liked it or not. Kiva also has to think of eventually's, because despite her gains, she is not holding the tactical advantage in terms of positioning. Both Young and Kiva have to be made to think that they have time which was only going to come via Wray. Otherwise the situation would have escalated well out of control. Were it not for Telford's swift actions, 4 people would have been executed already.

Given Rush has just spent some time with the woman, you'd think Young would be asking for all the information that Rush had, including what Kiva might be capable of doing. Rush would come out with that jolly amusing tale about him stalling for time and his greatest fan being murdered in front of him because Rush suggested he wasn't up to the job. That might give Young a bit of a clue but has he asked? Nope, of course not.

Major_Griff
June 6th, 2010, 05:41 AM
A military is not a good thing. It's merely an unfortunate necessary evil brought about by human ignorance, aggression, and greed.

Truth bomb

shipper hannah
June 6th, 2010, 07:34 AM
I think Wray did the right thing. She tried to open a line of communication between them, something that is commendable in any situation. The odds of the Lucian Alliance co-operating is highly unlikely, but just because the odds are against you doesn't mean you don't try anyways. And I think Wray has been trying to do the right thing for a long time: Protecting the welfare of the crew.

I agree.
I don't think there's anything delusional about attempting to resolve the situation non-violently.

RJLCyberPunk
June 6th, 2010, 07:41 AM
^Don't mind them. Obviously anyone standing in the way of MILITARY BADASS ASSKICKING WOOOO should be executed as quickly as possible.

Obviously.



And anyone who believes otherwise and isn't at least a bit disturbed by it is equally so.

A military is not a good thing. It's merely an unfortunate necessary evil brought about by human ignorance, aggression, and greed.

Hold your horses Armies are not just there to kill whatever enemy appears on radar, they also perform relief and rescue efforts when necessary. To say that Armies are evil is just as ignorant as saying that Camille Wray needs to be executed. God isn't there someone here who is not on the 2 extreme camps that Oh Armies are evil or the military should execute anyone who dares disagree with them? Geesh!

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 6th, 2010, 07:44 AM
Hold your horses Armies are not just there to kill whatever enemy appears on radar, they also perform relief and rescue efforts when necessary. To say that Armies are evil is just as ignorant as saying that Camille Wray needs to be executed. God isn't there someone here who is not on the 2 extreme camps that Oh Armies are evil or the military should execute anyone who dares disagree with them? Geesh!

As a Canadian, i have to agree wholeheartedly. Relief and rescue are common here. And no, not all armies are evil and Wray should definitely not be executed simply because she disagrees. So that would be someone :)

Major_Griff
June 6th, 2010, 07:45 AM
Hold your horses Armies are not just there to kill whatever enemy appears on radar, they also perform relief and rescue efforts when necessary. To say that Armies are evil is just as ignorant as saying that Camille Wray needs to be executed. God isn't there someone here who is not on the 2 extreme camps that Oh Armies are evil or the military should execute anyone who dares disagree with them? Geesh!

I don't think the military is evil, but I'd rather live in a world where it wasn't necessary. Wouldn't you?

RJLCyberPunk
June 6th, 2010, 07:50 AM
I don't think the military is evil, but I'd rather live in a world where it wasn't necessary. Wouldn't you?

For that we would have to change the human brain altogether. Besides had we not had an army in the SGVerse we would have been swallowed and spit by the Goa'uld and anyone that came along.

I'm guessing that even if everyone on Earth settled their differences we will still need an army against rogue elements and external (alien) threats should they emerge.

blackluster
June 6th, 2010, 09:19 AM
America doesn't openly negotiate with it's enemies either, unless it's to demand unconditional surrender I'm not sure what that was meant to prove since it is a highly illogical and somewhat backward way of thinking that in truth solves nothing.


The S.A.S. motto is who dares wins, the Roman playwright Terrence (in the 2nd century BC) wrote fortune favours the bold. My point here is that she doesn't need a particularly strong position to dictate terms. With the only medic, who isn't disposable, her position is strong enough to fight a delaying action until "her plan with Telford" reaches an acceptable position (which is what both commanders are doing).This still seems after the fact, since she was prepared to execute "the only medic, who isn't disposable". The fact is that the option to delay only became available after she spoke to Wray. The situation was going downhill rapidly before that.


I stated elsewhere that I believe that Kiva would have used TJ to negotiate regardless of Wray's offer, and I honestly believe this to be the case. Kiva was interested in saving her lieutenant, and TJ was the only one who could do that. Either way, TJ is being used to strong arm Young, because he can't risk losing his only full time medic, whether she's cooperating willingly or Kiva has a gun to her head.On the first point, I'd have to disagree, since what I saw was TJ on her knees about to get her brains shot out. There was no long term plan to use her. How TJ is being used now is not so much a strong arm since Kiva's plan with Telford already failed. She expressly asks Young for a show of good faith. I can't really believe that the situation was ever going to simmer down to that point had Wray not spoken. If it wasn't for her I really believe that some hostages would now be dead the moment Kiva found out one of her guys was dead. Remember she told Telford she'd execute those three prisoners if that plan failed but she could be brought down off of that with some reasoning. She may be tyrannical but she is not devoid of reason and as long as that is the case, talking has a purpose that can include gains other than just stalling for time.

s09119
June 6th, 2010, 09:20 AM
I assume you think hostage negotiators in real life are delusional as well?

I think this sums up my thoughts on the topic.

PG15
June 6th, 2010, 02:19 PM
Hold your horses Armies are not just there to kill whatever enemy appears on radar, they also perform relief and rescue efforts when necessary.

Then they are relief workers, not military.

Maybe that's just semantics though, I don't know.


To say that Armies are evil is just as ignorant as saying that Camille Wray needs to be executed. God isn't there someone here who is not on the 2 extreme camps that Oh Armies are evil or the military should execute anyone who dares disagree with them? Geesh!

Um, "necessary evil" =/= evil, unless you think Rush thought reliving his memories in "Human" was also evil (since he used the same term there), whatever that may even mean.

I just meant that, even though we need one, it doesn't mean it's a blessing.

major davis
June 6th, 2010, 02:24 PM
Ohh.. im not in either camp.. Im in the "Camille Wray is a pain in the butt" camp..

jelgate
June 6th, 2010, 02:29 PM
Then they are relief workers, not military.

Maybe that's just semantics though, I don't know.



Um, "necessary evil" =/= evil, unless you think Rush thought reliving his memories in "Human" was also evil (since he used the same term there), whatever that may even mean.

I just meant that, even though we need one, it doesn't mean it's a blessing.

But Rush is evil:P

Descended from the Ascended
June 6th, 2010, 02:43 PM
For leading a mutiny on board a ship, Wray should have already been executed*.

It certainly would have saved Young having to make unnecessary explanations to Wray about Rush's unscheduled stone use, and the torture methods used on Telford. I have yet to see Wray make a positive contribution to overall objective of getting home.


*That was the regulations within the Royal Navy up until 1998. Execution is still the maximum available sentence for mutiny in the US Navy.

Descended from the Ascended
June 6th, 2010, 02:45 PM
America doesn't openly negotiate with it's enemies either, unless it's to demand unconditional surrender

'course it does.

The most recent example would be extensive talking and threatening to Saddam Hussein prior to the latest gulf war.

KEK
June 6th, 2010, 03:19 PM
For leading a mutiny on board a ship, Wray should have already been executed*.

It certainly would have saved Young having to make unnecessary explanations to Wray about Rush's unscheduled stone use, and the torture methods used on Telford. I have yet to see Wray make a positive contribution to overall objective of getting home.


*That was the regulations within the Royal Navy up until 1998. Execution is still the maximum available sentence for mutiny in the US Navy.

Is it really mutiny when it's a ship the US military has no jurisdiction over? I mean they're basically all just refugees, it's not like someone tried to take over a 304.

Shai Hulud
June 6th, 2010, 03:32 PM
Is it really mutiny when it's a ship the US military has no jurisdiction over? I mean they're basically all just refugees, it's not like someone tried to take over a 304.

The whole Icarus project was set up to get a SGC military team, Telford's team, onto Destiny. They got there, okay its not the team that was supposed to be there but its still a team under the auspices of SGC, id say that gives them jurisdiction. First come, first served!

All IOA are supposed to be doing is monitoring and reporting back to Earth. If the IOA have a problem with whats happening on board the Destiny then their requests should be relayed via Stargate Command. Young answers to O'Neil and O'Neil alone.

KEK
June 6th, 2010, 03:36 PM
I'd say whatever employment contracts those scientists and engineers had with the SGC/IOA are probably null and void after their place of work was destroyed and they were left stranded on the other side of the universe. I don't think anyone other than the military personnel have any obligation to do what Young tells them to, this isn't an expedition after all, none of them signed up for this.

wargrafix
June 6th, 2010, 04:06 PM
A good negotiator is worth 100 military ppl. Obviously the OP isn't thinking of the big picture.

The Bruce Willis example of the delusion some people seem to live in.

wargrafix
June 6th, 2010, 04:10 PM
Is it really mutiny when it's a ship the US military has no jurisdiction over? I mean they're basically all just refugees, it's not like someone tried to take over a 304.

The real mutiny was the military takeover. ultimately the military responds to civilian command. Some people tend to get it backwards.

I rally don't trust O'neil's judgment. He has had lapses at moments.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 6th, 2010, 04:12 PM
The real mutiny was the military takeover. ultimately the military responds to civilian command. Some people tend to get it backwards.

I rally don't trust O'neil's judgment. He has had lapses at moments.

the military doesn't need to take over anything, as Icarus Base was already a military outpost. I know that some people don't like the military but some of this is really quite a stretch.

wargrafix
June 6th, 2010, 04:13 PM
the military doesn't need to take over anything, as Icarus Base was already a military outpost. I know that some people don't like the military but some of this is really quite a stretch.

destiny doesn't belong to anyone.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 6th, 2010, 04:16 PM
destiny doesn't belong to anyone.

the ship belongs to whoever can keep her so I suppose we'll have to see how that plays out over the next episode. I know that's not a popular or 'nice' thing to accept, but it's a very simple truth. If Young can't keep that ship, it's going to fall to the LA and for those that have had problems with Young? You've seen nothing yet if Kiva takes control.

wargrafix
June 6th, 2010, 04:24 PM
the ship belongs to whoever can keep her so I suppose we'll have to see how that plays out over the next episode. I know that's not a popular or 'nice' thing to accept, but it's a very simple truth. If Young can't keep that ship, it's going to fall to the LA and for those that have had problems with Young? You've seen nothing yet if Kiva takes control.

We are assuming that young will be merciful. in reality the Nixx saw that the human race is not mature enough to handle the responsibility.

Of course Kiva's character is simply a result of poor writing. Cardboard cutout villains. I assumed the writers could do better.

pipi
June 6th, 2010, 05:52 PM
I don't think the military is evil, but I'd rather live in a world where it wasn't necessary. Wouldn't you?

I wish for world peace too. But world peace can still exist with a military presense.

There are good benefits to having a military, it's just how you use them. Not all countries are aggressors and have the money to fund a campaign. A national force like the national guards help with relief efforts and restoring order if it gets out of control for local law enforcement. Not to mention providing jobs and keeping the economy moving.

If you don't have a military the government will just call it something else and tweek the wording a bit. In Japan post world war 2 the military was renamed the SDF, Self Defence Force, which is still huge and carry guns but they mainly operate internally.

Since I live in Australia, I can say this with confidence that the modern Australian military is a joke. The country is so god damn far away from everybody that we only use the military to patrol for illegal immigrants or appease Bush by sending our very limited special forces to hot zones. But they were probably only sent there to get some real experience if you ask me. With only 20 million people compared with America's 500 million, you can guess what our military budget is. We get ripped off buying rust bucket handme down equipment since the country doesn't produce anything for war. Like paying some rediculous amount of money for submarines that don't work (effectively), which finally got scraped. The infantry is tiny and just gets fat. The airforce was established post world war 2 and hasn't fired a single shot at hostile forces (missiles cost too much :P). The navy is just used to patrol for boat people and help disaster relief for our smaller island neighbours who rely on our (apparent wealthy) western nation to help when they get hit by cyclones and stuff. With the exception of sending some ships to the Gulf to help the blockade during the Saddam thing, just a holiday cruise. The Australian military is a necessary helpful force to the people and it's neighbours and life without it, would suck even more.

JustAnotherVoice
June 6th, 2010, 07:15 PM
I'm not sure what that was meant to prove since it is a highly illogical and somewhat backward way of thinking that in truth solves nothing.

You must have missed the part where Young is a military man, and an American. You may consider it logical to negotiate with your enemies, but Young has his training and a lifetime of doctrine which tells him not to.


This still seems after the fact, since she was prepared to execute "the only medic, who isn't disposable". The fact is that the option to delay only became available after she spoke to Wray. The situation was going downhill rapidly before that.

Kiva wasn't aware TJ was the medic until Telford told her so. Telford's role in delaying Kiva is much greater than Wray's - he stopped the executions as well as offered an alternate plan for her. He is the one who defused the situation, as much as Wray would like to take credit.


On the first point, I'd have to disagree, since what I saw was TJ on her knees about to get her brains shot out.

See above. But at the time, Telford had not told her as much. The dynamic changed and TJ's import rose after that.


There was no long term plan to use her. How TJ is being used now is not so much a strong arm since Kiva's plan with Telford already failed.

Two points:
1) There is no long term plan anymore. It went out the window when the assault on the ship was rushed and she lost most of her people and supplies on the planet. Any plan she may have had going into the action evaporated and she's winging it now.

2) Setback =/= failure. Kiva still believes that Telford is on her side, and is the best bet for finding a way around Young's roadblocks.


She expressly asks Young for a show of good faith. I can't really believe that the situation was ever going to simmer down to that point had Wray not spoken. If it wasn't for her I really believe that some hostages would now be dead the moment Kiva found out one of her guys was dead. Remember she told Telford she'd execute those three prisoners if that plan failed but she could be brought down off of that with some reasoning. She may be tyrannical but she is not devoid of reason and as long as that is the case, talking has a purpose that can include gains other than just stalling for time.

We'll agree to disagree on this point. I saw her asking for the sign of good faith as another stall tactic to find a way to win. IMO, neither commander will back down from anything other than total victory/command, and I don't see either one changing their minds and joining hands to sing kumbaya any time soon.

EllieVee
June 6th, 2010, 07:20 PM
Since I live in Australia, I can say this with confidence that the modern Australian military is a joke. The country is so god damn far away from everybody that we only use the military to patrol for illegal immigrants or appease Bush by sending our very limited special forces to hot zones. But they were probably only sent there to get some real experience if you ask me. With only 20 million people compared with America's 500 million, you can guess what our military budget is. We get ripped off buying rust bucket handme down equipment since the country doesn't produce anything for war. Like paying some rediculous amount of money for submarines that don't work (effectively), which finally got scraped. The infantry is tiny and just gets fat. The airforce was established post world war 2 and hasn't fired a single shot at hostile forces (missiles cost too much :P). The navy is just used to patrol for boat people and help disaster relief for our smaller island neighbours who rely on our (apparent wealthy) western nation to help when they get hit by cyclones and stuff. With the exception of sending some ships to the Gulf to help the blockade during the Saddam thing, just a holiday cruise. The Australian military is a necessary helpful force to the people and it's neighbours and life without it, would suck even more.

I live in Australia, too, and I can say with complete confidence that you calling the ADF a joke is ignorant and insulting.

pipi
June 6th, 2010, 07:26 PM
I live in Australia, too, and I can say with complete confidence that you calling the ADF a joke is ignorant and insulting.

Tell that to the media.

EllieVee
June 6th, 2010, 07:28 PM
Tell that to the media.

Perhaps you can post a link to where the media has called the ADF a joke then. You called it a joke; don't try to put the blame elsewhere.

RJLCyberPunk
June 6th, 2010, 07:44 PM
I live in Australia, too, and I can say with complete confidence that you calling the ADF a joke is ignorant and insulting.
You know I'm not even from Australia and I'm in fact Puerto Rican and a bonafide born American Citizen and even I found that statement of Australia's Defense forces being a joke distasteful. People that serve in most western nations do so voluntarily and anybody willing to risk and even give their lives if necessary to defend their nations should never be called a joke.

pipi
June 6th, 2010, 07:59 PM
Perhaps you can post a link to where the media has called the ADF a joke then. You called it a joke; don't try to put the blame elsewhere.

When I read reports that special forces troops have to use they own money to buy proper gear, I can't help but laugh. And when I get insider information from a sailor who's scheduled to leave port on a certain day, but also invited to attend some function, his response to the RSVP was that he can't be certain he can make it, but there's a high chance that the ship won't be sea worthy on time, I can't help but to laugh at that too.

GateroomGuard
June 6th, 2010, 08:01 PM
When I read reports that special forces troops have to use they own money to buy proper gear, I can't help but laugh. And when I get insider information from a sailor who's scheduled to leave port on a certain day, but also invited to attend some function, his response to the RSVP was that he can't be certain he can make it, but there's a high chance that the ship won't be sea worthy on time, I can't help but to laugh at that too.

I find that more sad than funny, but to each his own.

Pharaoh Atem
June 6th, 2010, 08:11 PM
Camile Wray is delusional!

among other things

EllieVee
June 6th, 2010, 08:43 PM
When I read reports that special forces troops have to use they own money to buy proper gear, I can't help but laugh. And when I get insider information from a sailor who's scheduled to leave port on a certain day, but also invited to attend some function, his response to the RSVP was that he can't be certain he can make it, but there's a high chance that the ship won't be sea worthy on time, I can't help but to laugh at that too.

That doesn't make the ADF a joke. I find it appalling that our defence forces don't get the funding they need but a lack of funding shouldn't make them a butt for your disrespect.

J_schinderlin56
June 6th, 2010, 10:30 PM
I don't think she is delusional, I think she is just annoying.

Descended from the Ascended
June 6th, 2010, 10:46 PM
The real mutiny was the military takeover. ultimately the military responds to civilian command. Some people tend to get it backwards.


This is not a country. It is not a planet either. Or a state, or even a county.


It is a ship. Name one single ship EVER that has been ruled by committee. Every ship man has ever put to sea has an autocratic command structure for a number of damn good reasons.

GateroomGuard
June 6th, 2010, 10:48 PM
This is not a country. It is not a planet either. Or a state, or even a county.


It is a ship. Name one single ship EVER that has been ruled by committee. Every ship man has ever put to sea has an autocratic command structure for a number of damn good reasons.

The Millenium Falcon with Leia onboard. :)

JustAnotherVoice
June 6th, 2010, 10:50 PM
The Millenium Falcon with Leia onboard. :)

Considering it was Han's ship, I'm surprised anyone bothered to listen to her. The girl was barely out of her teens in ANH!

beafly
June 7th, 2010, 10:39 AM
Negotiation in this case was fine as it bought them time to improve their best alternative to a negotiated agreement. That is why Young agreed, and I would have done the same but there is no way I'd have put wray in charge of it. She is more likely to get someone killed in the process than anything else.

I just thought it was absolutely hysterical that Wray assumed that Kiva gave flying $#*[email protected] about the soldiers that they held. I bout fell out of my chair when she proposed them as part of the agreement. Wray has no clue how to negotiate. None. She doesn't understand the situation or the players involved and that makes her dangerous.

Equally ridiculous was Kiva's reaction to the proposal. Shooting the first hostage would have been a response more appropriate to her character.

PG15
June 7th, 2010, 10:40 AM
Equally ridiculous was Kiva's reaction to the proposal. Shooting the first hostage would have been a response more appropriate to her character.

I guess there's more to her character than meets the eye then.

beafly
June 7th, 2010, 10:56 AM
Oooh. You're right, I missed that angle. There is depth and intrigue to her character, she's not just poorly written! Just like Young not decompressing the room and ending the hostile takeover attempt. He's not just a terrible strategist or commander he's also a caring loving person.

I'm told, these are the things I'm supposed to enjoy about SGU.

The things that make it more interesting than SGA or SG1.

Got it.

PG15
June 7th, 2010, 12:13 PM
Um...yes?

Sarcasm doesn't work when what you say is basically true, assuming you are using sarcasm. :p

Major_Griff
June 7th, 2010, 07:19 PM
'course it does.

The most recent example would be extensive talking and threatening to Saddam Hussein prior to the latest gulf war.

A: That was mostly Bush putting on a dog and pony show for the UN. The way he ran things, he would have went in guns a blazing first chance he could get if he didn't have to deal with UN regulations.

B: At that point we weren't at a state of war with them, so technically they weren't enemies. At that stage of the game, it was purely a diplomatic situation.

Tuvok
June 7th, 2010, 10:43 PM
Camile Wray is delusional!

among other things

You know I am not the biggist fan of Wray, but I give props that she was trying to help. The writers have gone out of their way to show that Camille is not Weir. Weir is a skilled and respected negotiator . Camille is head of human resources..

A for effort, D for well . Your the head of human resources , not a military leader or skilled negotiator. But hey she is trying to help.

Giantevilhead
June 8th, 2010, 12:07 AM
I'm hoping that Wray isn't as idiotic as they've written her out to be so far. The point of negotiation isn't just to make deals or trades, it's to understand the psyche of the other side. In a negotiation, you don't always ask for things that you think you can get, you make demands or concessions to gauge the strengths and weaknesses of our opponent. At the same time, you also project an image of yourself that you want your opponent to see.

The Asgard knew how to negotiate. They gave the Goa'uld the appearance that if there was a war that they would win even though they had no way of stopping the Goa'uld because of the Replicators. The same principles apply on the Destiny. If Wray really knows how to negotiate then she would use the opportunity to not only free the hostages but also to trick Kiva and put her in a more vulnerable position.

Blackhole
June 8th, 2010, 04:23 AM
I'm hoping that Wray isn't as idiotic as they've written her out to be so far. The point of negotiation isn't just to make deals or trades, it's to understand the psyche of the other side. In a negotiation, you don't always ask for things that you think you can get, you make demands or concessions to gauge the strengths and weaknesses of our opponent. At the same time, you also project an image of yourself that you want your opponent to see.

The Asgard knew how to negotiate. They gave the Goa'uld the appearance that if there was a war that they would win even though they had no way of stopping the Goa'uld because of the Replicators. The same principles apply on the Destiny. If Wray really knows how to negotiate then she would use the opportunity to not only free the hostages but also to trick Kiva and put her in a more vulnerable position.

Good points.

pipi
June 8th, 2010, 07:17 AM
If Wray really knows how to negotiate then she would use the opportunity to not only free the hostages but also to trick Kiva and put her in a more vulnerable position.

Wray is not evil enough for that. Although she is annoying she has only good intentions.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 8th, 2010, 07:31 AM
You know I am not the biggist fan of Wray, but I give props that she was trying to help. The writers have gone out of their way to show that Camille is not Weir. Weir is a skilled and respected negotiator . Camille is head of human resources..

A for effort, D for well . Your the head of human resources , not a military leader or skilled negotiator. But hey she is trying to help.yes, I also believe that here she was willing to help out; it wasn't just an attempt to insert herself into a position of authority. It was good to see that she's capable of working with Young


I'm hoping that Wray isn't as idiotic as they've written her out to be so far. The point of negotiation isn't just to make deals or trades, it's to understand the psyche of the other side. In a negotiation, you don't always ask for things that you think you can get, you make demands or concessions to gauge the strengths and weaknesses of our opponent. At the same time, you also project an image of yourself that you want your opponent to see.

The Asgard knew how to negotiate. They gave the Goa'uld the appearance that if there was a war that they would win even though they had no way of stopping the Goa'uld because of the Replicators. The same principles apply on the Destiny. If Wray really knows how to negotiate then she would use the opportunity to not only free the hostages but also to trick Kiva and put her in a more vulnerable position.

I don't think Wray is idiotic and ONE of the points of negotiation is to understand the psyche of the opposite member. Another point is to make a deal. I don't care which point she makes, because she's just the voice that's making it. She asked for something small and simple first. If they can get Kiva to agree to something, anything, then getting her to agree to something else becomes that much easier, or that's the theory anyway. At least it was something to try and I don't blame her for wanting to try. As long as she doesn't go thinking that's all there is to it.

Giantevilhead
June 8th, 2010, 08:47 AM
Wray is not evil enough for that. Although she is annoying she has only good intentions.

You don't have to be evil to do that. You have to be smart. Hostage negotiators don't try to make friends with the hostage takers. They get the hostages free by any means necessary and if they have to get the hostage taker to walk into the sights of a sniper then so be it.


I don't think Wray is idiotic and ONE of the points of negotiation is to understand the psyche of the opposite member. Another point is to make a deal. I don't care which point she makes, because she's just the voice that's making it. She asked for something small and simple first. If they can get Kiva to agree to something, anything, then getting her to agree to something else becomes that much easier, or that's the theory anyway. At least it was something to try and I don't blame her for wanting to try. As long as she doesn't go thinking that's all there is to it.

I never said that understanding the psyche of the other side is the only point of negotiation. However, making a deal is not the primary purpose of this kind of negotiation. The primary purpose of negotiating with criminals or terrorists is to get them into a position where you can take them down. The LA will try to take over the ship and any deals they make will only be temporary and can potentially backfire at any time. The deal they make therefore has to serve some goal other than getting the hostages free since getting the hostages back won't matter if Kiva gets in a position to take the ship.

pipi
June 8th, 2010, 05:13 PM
Weir is a skilled and respected negotiator . Camille is head of human resources..
It really urks me when people belittle a person based solely on their current job description. A CV is bigger than that. A job just pays the bills. Anyone with top secret clearance from the IOA is not your average administration assistant. Camille's job is obviously just a cover, like a secret agent.

Shai Hulud
June 8th, 2010, 05:19 PM
Wray SGU's 'Mata Hari?' Hopefully she'll end up like old Margaretha!

Avenger
June 8th, 2010, 06:19 PM
It really urks me when people belittle a person based solely on their current job description. A CV is bigger than that. A job just pays the bills. Anyone with top secret clearance from the IOA is not your average administration assistant. Camille's job is obviously just a cover, like a secret agent.

No, it's really not obviously just a cover. There hasn't been anything to indicate that it's just a cover.

pipi
June 8th, 2010, 11:55 PM
No, it's really not obviously just a cover. There hasn't been anything to indicate that it's just a cover.

I'm not saying she is a secret agent spy, it's like one because you don't know her true skill set based on a job title. Human resources manager appointed from the IOA on Icarus; why is that even required? Is it that easy to learn about the stargate program. Must be easier than becoming an astronaut. I hear they have 1000 over qualified applicants for each position.

Phenom
June 9th, 2010, 03:29 AM
I'm hoping that Wray isn't as idiotic as they've written her out to be so far. The point of negotiation isn't just to make deals or trades, it's to understand the psyche of the other side. In a negotiation, you don't always ask for things that you think you can get, you make demands or concessions to gauge the strengths and weaknesses of our opponent. At the same time, you also project an image of yourself that you want your opponent to see.

The Asgard knew how to negotiate. They gave the Goa'uld the appearance that if there was a war that they would win even though they had no way of stopping the Goa'uld because of the Replicators. The same principles apply on the Destiny. If Wray really knows how to negotiate then she would use the opportunity to not only free the hostages but also to trick Kiva and put her in a more vulnerable position.

You are kind of on the right track, and yes understanding who you are talking to is very important in a negotiation. However trickery or 'projecting' an image of yourself is a massive no-no, simply because when you are negotiating with a subject or subjects for hours, days or weeks on end, you will forget what lie you told at the beginning. A cardinal rule of negotiation in this context (not the business one) is not to lie. That does not mean you disclose the entire truth, however clever word play can be used to ensure you don't mess yourself up.

I thought Wray did quite well given the circumstances. She introduced herself and her position and was up front with what she wanted out of the situation.

Just remember, you watched a 3 minute negotiation, if that. The real key to good negotiation is time. It is very hard for a subject to stay angry forever.....they do get hungry after all.


To the OP....

Negotiation is never pointless, no matter how futile it might appear. Thats not to say that every scenario can be solved through negotiation, but unless the LA came out with guns a blazing then an attempt at negotiation should be made.


And finally to Pipi....

I understand your sentiment but 'joke' is not the right word. It is very unfortunate that our awesome troops don't have all the equipment they need but in light of Australian troops having their worst day since Vietnam in terms of lost lives, I think you need to rethink what you write before you press 'submit'.

garhkal
June 12th, 2010, 04:12 AM
You would think with her being the champions of the civillians she would be more worried about surrendering them to a band of murderous pirates. Who are likely to do what they will with the Destiny crew.

Ad seeing how easily she got PUNKED twice this weeks ep, i feel she is in way over her head.