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Blackhole
June 5th, 2010, 11:08 AM
Young is clearly not a villain.

I hope that Young’s action not to evacuate the air from the Gateroom to protect both Rush and Telford’s lives puts to rest once and for all the assertion by some that Young still has it in for Rush or that he is this heartless villain. His restraint clearly demonstrates that he tried to do the right thing and to protect the lives of all those under his command. O’Neil chastised him directly for not sacrificing both their lives and threatened to remove him from command because of it. Although in all fairness O’Neil is a hypocrite; when the Replicators still had Sam he could have stopped them if he had used his disrupter weapon on their ship before it lifted off; he was unwilling to fire because it would have meant sacrificing her life to do so.

Imo Young’s action to maroon Rush on the planet was an isolated incident; it was a clear mistake done in anger and was provoked by Rush’s actions and behaviors. Since Divided Rush has been a different man and the animosity between them is no longer present anywhere to the degree it had been before.

blackluster
June 5th, 2010, 11:16 AM
I dunno, I felt that all the incidents of Young's supposed benevolence were wholly for Telford's sake, not Rush's. He could have lifted the stones as soon as Telford had been given the ok by TJ, but he kept him there even against Telford's recommendation specifically about Rush being in grave danger. Telford seemed concerned about Rush but Young was more pleased that he had his buddy back. I wouldn't call Young a villain since that would be unreasonable, but frankly, I doubt his anger issues toward Rush have gone anywhere and that he has absolutely no problem risking Rush's life for the sake of people he cares more about.

Utitan
June 5th, 2010, 11:34 AM
I don't think that's the case. Young didn't vacuum the gate room because it would have killed both, or so as he thought at the time, I dont think he knew they had switched. Besides, it's been more apparent that Rush and Young have been working together and bridging the gaps between the two. They are no longer enemies.

Tielster
June 5th, 2010, 11:40 AM
I'm still waiting to see Rush and Young playing chess when a crisis breaks out. I hope the writers don't blow off that awesome set up!!

Blackhole
June 5th, 2010, 11:49 AM
I'm still waiting to see Rush and Young playing chess when a crisis breaks out. I hope the writers don't blow off that awesome set up!!

At some point I agree that scene will be portrayed.

ONeill4tW
June 5th, 2010, 12:02 PM
Rush even accuses Young of not venting the gate room because he wanted to protect Telford, not Rush. So who really knows. Young does not even need to know that Rush was inhabiting Telford's body or not. Telford's body dies, Telford's consciousness dies. Hence Rush's accusation.

Blackhole
June 5th, 2010, 12:07 PM
Rush even accuses Young of not venting the gate room because he wanted to protect Telford, not Rush. So who really knows. Young does not even need to know that Rush was inhabiting Telford's body or not. Telford's body dies, Telford's consciousness dies. Hence Rush's accusation.

No one but Rush and Telford knew that the stones connections were severed when Telford's body came through the gate.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 12:09 PM
Young is clearly not a villain.

I hope that Young’s action not to evacuate the air from the Gateroom to protect both Rush and Telford’s lives puts to rest once and for all the assertion by some that Young still has it in for Rush or that he is this heartless villain. His restraint clearly demonstrates that he tried to do the right thing and to protect the lives of all those under his command. O’Neil chastised him directly for not sacrificing both their lives and threatened to remove him from command because of it. Although in all fairness O’Neil is a hypocrite; when the Replicators still had Sam he could have stopped them if he had used his disrupter weapon on their ship before it lifted off; he was unwilling to fire because it would have meant sacrificing her life to do so.

Imo Young’s action to maroon Rush on the planet was an isolated incident; it was a clear mistake done in anger and was provoked by Rush’s actions and behaviors. Since Divided Rush has been a different man and the animosity between them is no longer present anywhere to the degree it had been before.No, he's definitely not a villain and in fact, I think we were presented with Kiva to see what a real villain looked like. Now, as far as TV shows go, Young is not some pure "I will thwart evil!" sort of hero either but that is such a breath of relief. If he had hated Rush, as some believe wholeheartedly, he could have easily ventilated that gateroom and everyone all the way up to O'Neill would have backed him up wholeheartedly on it. In fact, O'Neill seems a little pissed that he didn't. Both Rush and Young have grown as characters and while they may never be friends, I believe that when Young chose to scuttle a perfectly acceptable military plan to vent that room, it was done to save Rush's life. He had no way to know it wasn't Rush down there in Telford's body, and at that moment, Rush was one of 'his' men, and Young has had enough of losing his people.


I'm still waiting to see Rush and Young playing chess when a crisis breaks out. I hope the writers don't blow off that awesome set up!!me too :)

blackluster
June 5th, 2010, 12:32 PM
...He had no way to know it wasn't Rush down there in Telford's body, and at that moment, Rush was one of 'his' men, and Young has had enough of losing his people.Actually, if you took the standpoint that who was in the gate room was an unknown, that still doesn't score brownie points for Young, since given that, had it been Rush in there and he vented the atmosphere, it wouldn't matter since Telford would still die because his body would be killed. lol, much would have to happen for Rush to be considered anything of Young's, let alone one of 'his men'.

Blackhole
June 5th, 2010, 12:45 PM
No, he's definitely not a villain and in fact, I think we were presented with Kiva to see what a real villain looked like. Now, as far as TV shows go, Young is not some pure "I will thwart evil!" sort of hero either but that is such a breath of relief. If he had hated Rush, as some believe wholeheartedly, he could have easily ventilated that gateroom and everyone all the way up to O'Neill would have backed him up wholeheartedly on it. In fact, O'Neill seems a little pissed that he didn't. Both Rush and Young have grown as characters and while they may never be friends, I believe that when Young chose to scuttle a perfectly acceptable military plan to vent that room, it was done to save Rush's life. He had no way to know it wasn't Rush down there in Telford's body, and at that moment, Rush was one of 'his' men, and Young has had enough of losing his people.

Well put and I agree.

JustAnotherVoice
June 5th, 2010, 12:48 PM
I'm still waiting to see Rush and Young playing chess when a crisis breaks out. I hope the writers don't blow off that awesome set up!!

It takes time to carve out pieces, especially if you're forced to use a survival knife rather than a craftman's tools. It's only been a month to 6 weeks since he started carving, and we all know Rush is worked like a dog on that ship

Major_Griff
June 5th, 2010, 12:49 PM
Actually, if you took the standpoint that who was in the gate room was an unknown, that still doesn't score brownie points for Young, since given that, had it been Rush in there and he vented the atmosphere, it wouldn't matter since Telford would still die because his body would be killed. lol, much would have to happen for Rush to be considered anything of Young's, let alone one of 'his men'.

The fact is he thought that both Rush and Telford would die. He thought it was Rush in the gateroom and decided not to vent the atmo. The idea that he just wanted to save Telford is absurd. You really think that if Rush was there in his own body Young wouldn't have hesitated?

blackluster
June 5th, 2010, 12:54 PM
The fact is he thought that both Rush and Telford would die. He thought it was Rush in the gateroom and decided not to vent the atmo. The idea that he just wanted to save Telford is absurd. You really think that if Rush was there in his own body Young wouldn't have hesitated?No I don't think he would have hesitated. We already saw him subject Rush to a near death experience for the sake of Telford, and we saw him leave Rush in enemy captivity and under duress so that Telford could 'regain his strength'. He could easily chalk that up under the 'greater good' column without losing any sleep.

Major_Griff
June 5th, 2010, 12:58 PM
No I don't think he would have hesitated. We already saw him subject Rush to a near death experience for the sake of Telford, and we saw him leave Rush in enemy captivity and under duress so that Telford could 'regain his strength'. He could easily chalk that up under the 'greater good' column without losing any sleep.

If he really believed in 'the greater good' he would have vented the atmo not caring if both Telford and Rush died.

blackluster
June 5th, 2010, 01:05 PM
If he really believed in 'the greater good' he would have vented the atmo not caring if both Telford and Rush died. Indeed, something Rush reminded him of later. He let his feelings for a friend that he just regained get in the way.

Major_Griff
June 5th, 2010, 01:12 PM
Indeed, something Rush reminded him of later. He let his feelings for a friend that he just regained get in the way.

So then do you think he believes in 'the greater good' or not? You seem to want to have it both ways now.

blackluster
June 5th, 2010, 01:20 PM
So then do you think he believes in 'the greater good' or not? You seem to want to have it both ways now. rofl, what are you talking about? All I've been doing is relating to you exactly what Young has been doing for the past two episodes. My thoughts on Young's perspective are being guided by what he says and does. In Subversion he claims to Telford that it would be ok if he died and Rush died because it would be for the greater good. In the very next ep we see that when that axiom is truly put to the test, Young is not able to go through with it, a theme perpetuated in the episode by his shouting match with Rush and the scolding he gets from Jack. If you want to interrogate someone about having it both ways, ask Young, since that is want he is trying to do in the episode.

The comment itself I made with relation to his treatment of Rush, since based on what he has done to Rush both directly and indirectly even up until recently, tells me that while he may suspend the 'greater good' reasoning for his friends, he will not do it for Rush. Rush is only spared by virtue of the fact that Telford was at risk as well.

Major_Griff
June 5th, 2010, 02:02 PM
rofl, what are you talking about? All I've been doing is relating to you exactly what Young has been doing for the past two episodes. My thoughts on Young's perspective are being guided by what he says and does. In Subversion he claims to Telford that it would be ok if he died and Rush died because it would be for the greater good. In the very next ep we see that when that axiom is truly put to the test, Young is not able to go through with it, a theme perpetuated in the episode by his shouting match with Rush and the scolding he gets from Jack. If you want to interrogate someone about having it both ways, ask Young, since that is want he is trying to do in the episode.

The comment itself I made with relation to his treatment of Rush, since based on what he has done to Rush both directly and indirectly even up until recently, tells me that while he may suspend the 'greater good' reasoning for his friends, he will not do it for Rush. Rush is only spared by virtue of the fact that Telford was at risk as well.

His use of the term 'the greater good' seems to be more to make viewers think Young is venting the atmo as some sort of torture to get information than anything the character meant. But he never intended to permanently kill Telford, he was trying to unbrainwash him. What you're talking about is actually killing two members of his crew (so he thought) for 'the greater good' which is clearly something he's not comfortable doing, hence why he turned down the opportunity to lead the Destiny mission in the first place.

Avenger
June 5th, 2010, 02:13 PM
No one but Rush and Telford knew that the stones connections were severed when Telford's body came through the gate.


TJ knew Rush was back in his body. I found it odd that she didn't get on the radio and inform Young about it.

blackluster
June 5th, 2010, 02:14 PM
What you're talking about is actually killing two members of his crew (so he thought) for 'the greater good' which is clearly something he's not comfortable doing, hence why he turned down the opportunity to lead the Destiny mission in the first place.No, what I'm talking about is justification for hypothetical consequences. When he vented the atmosphere, he did so with the intention of undoing brainwashing which he couldn't be absolutely certain Telford was under. He took a major risk there and he bet the lives of both Telford and Rush on the Telford that he remembered as his friend. Had he been wrong, he would either have a dead friend or a true to life traitor on his hands. He could base that gamble in the first place on a greater good line of reasoning, where he'd risk his friend's life to not only save him by try and thwart the alliance. He wouldn't have to be comfortable with the gamble (who would when the stakes are two lives) but he could certainly feel justified. There in lies the paradox between Subversion and Incursion, he could roll the dice once, but when he knew he had his friend back, he couldn't do it a second time. Like I said earlier, based on his actions up till now, I very much doubt Rush factored significantly in that equation, since Telford was the only thing that had changed. You are welcome to disagree.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 02:17 PM
TJ knew Rush was back in his body. I found it odd that she didn't get on the radio and inform Young about it.

a lack of time?

Blackhole
June 5th, 2010, 04:32 PM
TJ knew Rush was back in his body. I found it odd that she didn't get on the radio and inform Young about it.

She didn't have a chance. Rush rushed out and she was promptly captured trying to stop him.

Major_Griff
June 5th, 2010, 04:34 PM
She didn't have a chance. Rush rushed out and she was promptly captured.

Her running after Rush pissed me off almost as much as Teyla stepping out on the ledge in Quarantine. I'm mean seriously, you're prego stay put!

jelgate
June 5th, 2010, 04:42 PM
Her running after Rush pissed me off almost as much as Teyla stepping out on the ledge in Quarantine. I'm mean seriously, you're prego stay put!
I bet you just ticked off quite a bit of women.

Major_Griff
June 5th, 2010, 04:46 PM
I bet you just ticked off quite a bit of women.

Lolz, well I mean when there's people with guns shooting every where don't go running toward them. I don't mean to be sexist but if you're pregnant you shouldn't be in the line of fire like that.

Pharaoh Atem
June 5th, 2010, 04:52 PM
young's never been the villain

Major_Griff
June 5th, 2010, 04:53 PM
young's never been the villain

To me part of what makes this show so interesting is that fact that both Rush and Young, the shows two primary protagonists, have ventured very close to villain territory.

jelgate
June 5th, 2010, 04:54 PM
To me part of what makes this show so interesting is that fact that both Rush and Young, the shows two primary protagonists, have ventured very close to villain territory.

With Rush stepping into it a few times

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 04:56 PM
I bet you just ticked off quite a bit of women.Ticked me off :)
Being pregnant doesn't make you incapable


Lolz, well I mean when there's people with guns shooting every where don't go running toward them. I don't mean to be sexist but if you're pregnant you shouldn't be in the line of fire like that.she's in the line of fire just being on the ship at all. Plus, she's armed. She IS the line of fire :)


young's never been the villainGreen :)

Major_Griff
June 5th, 2010, 04:58 PM
Ticked me off :)
Being pregnant doesn't make you incapable

she's in the line of fire just being on the ship at all. Plus, she's armed. She IS the line of fire :)


*sigh* whatever, sorry for offending, I just don't want to see the baby get hurt. Excuse me. I really didn't mean to imply being pregnant makes you incapable.

Harkonnen
June 5th, 2010, 05:41 PM
Young may not be a villain but he is one of the most stupid people in the stargate franchise.

An invading force is coming through the gate, into a completely sealed off room with no options of retreat and they had the power to stop them instantly by having the gate room evacuated of air.

Yet they still manage to gain a foothold.

How stupid can one be? The LA people wouldn't have been able to even radio back through the gate in a vacuum to tell the others it isn't safe.

Also, considering he had not long ago vented the atmosphere in telford's room and then revived him. Could have easily saved telford's body.

EllieVee
June 5th, 2010, 05:49 PM
So then do you think he believes in 'the greater good' or not? You seem to want to have it both ways now.

Rather like Young really.

Young reacts on his emotions every single time and he's a paranoid, uber-whackjob. Is that a villain? Well, yes, it is given what Young has said and done.

jelgate
June 5th, 2010, 05:53 PM
Rather like Young really.

Young reacts on his emotions every single time and he's a paranoid, uber-whackjob. Is that a villain? Well, yes, it is given what Young has said and done.

That seems to describe everyone on Destiny. A vast majority of them are a litte paranoid and act on their emotions

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 05:57 PM
That seems to describe everyone on Destiny. A vast majority of them are a litte paranoid and act on their emotions

given everything that's happened to them, maybe they're right to be paranoid, after all, everyone really is after them :)

ONeill4tW
June 5th, 2010, 07:11 PM
No one but Rush and Telford knew that the stones connections were severed when Telford's body came through the gate.

You misunderstand.

Yes, Young does not know that the connection was disconnected, however that does not mean he was not concerned about Telford's life. If he vented the gateroom he would still kill Telford regardless of whether Rush was inhabiting that body or not. Thus Rush believes that Young chose to not vent the gateroom not because he cared for Rush or anything, but because he cared for Telford.

If he kllls Telford's body, Telford will die in Rush's body.

Hence the accusation.

Young cared more for a traitor than anyone on board the ship. It makes him gross negligent in this conflict. He chose personal reasons over logical reasons.

Does it make him a villain? From a certain point of view it might.

Blackhole
June 5th, 2010, 08:07 PM
You misunderstand.

Yes, Young does not know that the connection was disconnected, however that does not mean he was not concerned about Telford's life. If he vented the gateroom he would still kill Telford regardless of whether Rush was inhabiting that body or not. Thus Rush believes that Young chose to not vent the gateroom not because he cared for Rush or anything, but because he cared for Telford.

If he kllls Telford's body, Telford will die in Rush's body.

Hence the accusation.

Young cared more for a traitor than anyone on board the ship. It makes him gross negligent in this conflict. He chose personal reasons over logical reasons.

Does it make him a villain? From a certain point of view it might.

What happens if the LA have short term breathing apparatus with them? Young vents the atmosphere they put on their equipment and don't go down and Telford's body dies killing both of them? Besides if they were all disabled then what happens for the next two episodes? Young didn't vent the room because the writers didn't write it that way. Imo trying to suggest he is incompetent is over analyzing the episode.

cnnrstrav
June 5th, 2010, 08:15 PM
I don't understand how people can think like this, with this new show. I mean, these characters aren't heroes, they are humans not fit for this. Empathy please? The stress, constantly fighting for survival, in an almost completely alien environment, ON THE FARSIDE OF THE UNIVERSE, is insanely stressful. In this day and age though, I guess people wouldn't really be offing themselves, since they aren't doing it a lot now :o.

I mean, Young's stress level is probably the highest, next to Rush. He is the leader of everyone, even if people wouldn't like to think of him as such. And that as well causes more stress. He's doing an incredible job, under ALL THAT STRESS. I doubt any of us could do it. HA. I just can't believe people would think of him as a villain. He isn't some megalomaniac with a snake in his head, he's a human being, trying his best to survive, and insure the survival of his people. Killing Telford and Rush would've been Machiavellian, not "Villain-like" Its like people can't even empathize these days. :(

ONeill4tW
June 5th, 2010, 08:43 PM
What happens if the LA have short term breathing apparatus with them? Young vents the atmosphere they put on their equipment and don't go down and Telford's body dies killing both of them? Besides if they were all disabled then what happens for the next two episodes? Young didn't vent the room because the writers didn't write it that way. Imo trying to suggest he is incompetent is over analyzing the episode.

So what if the Lucians had oxygen masks to deal with Young venting the gateroom? At least then Young can go back and say "I did what I could" rather than say "I chose not to because I wanted to save one man and that cost us lives." We can beat around the "What if" bush all we like and it still won't change the fact that the writers wrote him incompetent.

But that is beside the point and has no relevance to the argument as to who Young thought was inhabiting Telford's body and why he chose to save that person rather than kill him along with the rest of the Lucians. I agree with Rush, Young did it to save Telford, not Rush.

Blackhole
June 5th, 2010, 09:08 PM
I don't understand how people can think like this, with this new show. I mean, these characters aren't heroes, they are humans not fit for this. Empathy please? The stress, constantly fighting for survival, in an almost completely alien environment, ON THE FARSIDE OF THE UNIVERSE, is insanely stressful. In this day and age though, I guess people wouldn't really be offing themselves, since they aren't doing it a lot now :o.

I mean, Young's stress level is probably the highest, next to Rush. He is the leader of everyone, even if people wouldn't like to think of him as such. And that as well causes more stress. He's doing an incredible job, under ALL THAT STRESS. I doubt any of us could do it. HA. I just can't believe people would think of him as a villain. He isn't some megalomaniac with a snake in his head, he's a human being, trying his best to survive, and insure the survival of his people. Killing Telford and Rush would've been Machiavellian, not "Villain-like" Its like people can't even empathize these days. :(

I agree that Young has the most difficult and thankless command of any leader in the history of the Stargate franchise and given the circumstances has done a good job. Imo his only real mistake was leaving Rush. Rush imo deserved a severe punishment for everything he had done on Destiny and to antagonize Young. If Young had dragged Rush back and thrown him in irons the whole problem could have been averted. Even if he had come clean that he confronted Rush about his framing attempt and Rush figuratively spit back in his face; they fought and Rush was knocked unconsciousness and he was unable to carry him back in time before the ship departed would have been better than lying about it.

Blackhole
June 5th, 2010, 09:22 PM
So what if the Lucians had oxygen masks to deal with Young venting the gateroom? At least then Young can go back and say "I did what I could" rather than say "I chose not to because I wanted to save one man and that cost us lives." We can beat around the "What if" bush all we like and it still won't change the fact that the writers wrote him incompetent.

But that is beside the point and has no relevance to the argument as to who Young thought was inhabiting Telford's body and why he chose to save that person rather than kill him along with the rest of the Lucians. I agree with Rush, Young did it to save Telford, not Rush.

I disagree that the writers wrote him as incompetent. Venting the air in the gateroom would have been far different than when he did so in Telford's compartment. There it was a controlled environment and Young knew he could immediately get to Rush's body to revive him. In the gateroom he may not be able to get to Telford's body in time and it would kill both of them. He was unwilling to chance it. You are free to conclude as O'Neill did that he should have sacrificed both of them to avert the attack but I don't agree that choosing not to sacrifice two lives makes him incompetent.

And in all fairness O’Neill is a hypocrite; when the Replicators still had Sam he could have stopped them if he had used his disruptor weapon on their ship before it lifted off; he was unwilling to fire because it would have meant sacrificing her life to do so. In that instance the stakes were far higher than just the take over of a ship, our entire galaxy was at risk from a Replicator invasion.

And you are certainly entitled to your opinion that Young's purpose was to save Telford and not Rush but again it is an opinion. There is no way to get into Young's mind and know for sure that was what his intent was.

Lahela
June 6th, 2010, 02:48 AM
With Rush stepping into it a few times

And Young hasn't? :S


Lolz, well I mean when there's people with guns shooting every where don't go running toward them. I don't mean to be sexist but if you're pregnant you shouldn't be in the line of fire like that.

Her actions annoyed me because she was violating a direct order and abandoning her post - she is the sum total of their medical expertise, so she should have stayed put in the inevitable event that there are injuries that need attention.

garhkal
June 6th, 2010, 03:27 AM
No I don't think he would have hesitated. We already saw him subject Rush to a near death experience for the sake of Telford, and we saw him leave Rush in enemy captivity and under duress so that Telford could 'regain his strength'. He could easily chalk that up under the 'greater good' column without losing any sleep.

And what greater good did it serve? Also if he was really concerned about the "Greater good" he would have vente the air in the gateroom, before they got there, so as soon as the LA arrived, they would be dyiing off.. THAT way he would not have ha to worry about
A) them getting a beach head
B) them having some of his men prisoners
C) any of his people getting injured.
WELL other than rush.

jelgate
June 6th, 2010, 08:25 AM
And Young hasn't? :S

Not really. Some of things he has done are morally questionable but they have always been for the best of the crew

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 6th, 2010, 08:35 AM
I don't understand how people can think like this, with this new show. I mean, these characters aren't heroes, they are humans not fit for this. Empathy please? The stress, constantly fighting for survival, in an almost completely alien environment, ON THE FARSIDE OF THE UNIVERSE, is insanely stressful. In this day and age though, I guess people wouldn't really be offing themselves, since they aren't doing it a lot now :o.

I mean, Young's stress level is probably the highest, next to Rush. He is the leader of everyone, even if people wouldn't like to think of him as such. And that as well causes more stress. He's doing an incredible job, under ALL THAT STRESS. I doubt any of us could do it. HA. I just can't believe people would think of him as a villain. He isn't some megalomaniac with a snake in his head, he's a human being, trying his best to survive, and insure the survival of his people. Killing Telford and Rush would've been Machiavellian, not "Villain-like" Its like people can't even empathize these days. :(I've got empathy :) and yeah, *nods* at the bolded. I think it's easy to try to look at tv characters and want them to be heroes and it's harder to look at them and know that they're just as human as you are, in worse circumstances


I agree that Young has the most difficult and thankless command of any leader in the history of the Stargate franchise and given the circumstances has done a good job. Imo his only real mistake was leaving Rush. Rush imo deserved a severe punishment for everything he had done on Destiny and to antagonize Young. If Young had dragged Rush back and thrown him in irons the whole problem could have been averted. Even if he had come clean that he confronted Rush about his framing attempt and Rush figuratively spit back in his face; they fought and Rush was knocked unconsciousness and he was unable to carry him back in time before the ship departed would have been better than lying about it.
Now that's a fact and yes, it was a mistake, something Young would agree with. He's also, at least in his mind, just saved Rush's life by not venting the air in the gate room when he thought it was Rush down there. Maybe that should count for something? As Young has said, Rush is a lot of work, but people don't go to a lot of work for those they don't give a crap about.

blackluster
June 6th, 2010, 09:03 AM
And what greater good did it serve? Also if he was really concerned about the "Greater good" he would have vente the air in the gateroom, before they got there, so as soon as the LA arrived, they would be dyiing off.. THAT way he would not have ha to worry about
A) them getting a beach head
B) them having some of his men prisoners
C) any of his people getting injured.
WELL other than rush. I already made two posts after the one you quoted expanding on the idea. I recommend that you read them.

kwlafayette
June 6th, 2010, 09:25 AM
Also clear; he should never have made colonel.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 6th, 2010, 09:28 AM
Also clear; he should never have made colonel.

anyone can burn out; it doesn;t mean that he hasn't done things in the past that would warrant promotion

Major_Griff
June 6th, 2010, 09:29 AM
anyone can burn out; it doesn;t mean that he hasn't done things in the past that would warrant promotion

I hope we find more out about his past as an SG tam leader.

kwlafayette
June 6th, 2010, 09:34 AM
And what greater good did it serve? Also if he was really concerned about the "Greater good" he would have vente the air in the gateroom, before they got there, so as soon as the LA arrived, they would be dyiing off.. THAT way he would not have ha to worry about
A) them getting a beach head
B) them having some of his men prisoners
C) any of his people getting injured.
WELL other than rush.

D) all those extra people straining life support.
E) all the food and water those extra people would need.

Those extra people are not just a short term problem. And not just for the obvious hostiles with guns reasons.

I have a feeling Kiva is not Admiral Caine, she is in fact Janeway...

PS. With Young as Chakotay. It seems now that they are aboard, it is inevitable that they have to find a way to live and work together. Either that, or one side finds a way to kill the other side (and that would quite clearly be Kiva's side doing the killing. Young's side would lack the resolve.).

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 6th, 2010, 09:37 AM
I hope we find more out about his past as an SG tam leader.

me too :)

kwlafayette
June 6th, 2010, 09:45 AM
D) all those extra people straining life support.
E) all the food and water those extra people would need.

Those extra people are not just a short term problem. And not just for the obvious hostiles with guns reasons.

I have a feeling Kiva is not Admiral Caine, she is in fact Janeway...

PS. Remember Eli, in the episode he specifically mentioned how he had shut down life support in the unused sections of the ship. Guaranteed, they are going to have Air part 4 sometime in season 2.

Lahela
June 6th, 2010, 10:01 AM
Not really. Some of things he has done are morally questionable but they have always been for the best of the crew

That's just not true. Neither abandoning Rush on that planet nor impersonating both a subordinate and another member of the destiny crew in order to beat up on Telford were for the good of anybody. Way beyond morally questionable and well into criminal territory.

Blackhole
June 6th, 2010, 10:15 AM
Now that's a fact and yes, it was a mistake, something Young would agree with. He's also, at least in his mind, just saved Rush's life by not venting the air in the gate room when he thought it was Rush down there. Maybe that should count for something? As Young has said, Rush is a lot of work, but people don't go to a lot of work for those they don't give a crap about.

I agree

jelgate
June 6th, 2010, 10:54 AM
That's just not true. Neither abandoning Rush on that planet

Rush brought that on himself by framing one person of murder and then forcing one person to undergo some dangerous procedure.[/QUOTE]
Very villian like


nor impersonating both a subordinate and another member of the destiny crew in order to beat up on Telford were for the good of anybody. Way beyond morally questionable and well into criminal territory.
Thats one of those morally questionable things. I don't really think beating Telford up was an act of villiany. It was a selfish motive

Kaiphantom
June 6th, 2010, 11:13 AM
I'm pointing out this fact, so that it doesn't go umissed:

Rush was never in any danger. At all.

Why? Because you can disconnect the stones. At that instant, when they saw Telford in the room, Young should have ordered the stones disconnected. The only possible casualty from venting the room would have been Telford, and I think he would have agreed with Young, and been willing to risk his life to make up for his brainwashed actions. But it's highly likely that he wouldn't have died.

No, Young isn't a villain; but he has made one too many bad decisions lately. He is the one who insists on having the power, and if he is not capable of properly wielding it to protect those under his command, he deserves to lose it.

I like the guy; he's a good, multi-faceted character. But he's not leader material.

Lahela
June 6th, 2010, 11:49 AM
Rush brought that on himself by framing one person of murder and then forcing one person to undergo some dangerous procedure.
Very villian like

Thats one of those morally questionable things. I don't really think beating Telford up was an act of villiany. It was a selfish motive

I'm not saying anyone is or isn't a villain. What I am saying is that it's inaccurate to claim that Young has never committed any act that was not for some greater good, when it's clear that he has. Whatever anyone thinks of his motivations (and I'm certainly not interested in getting into a debate about whether Rush or Telford deserved what Young dished out to them because that's not the point I'm trying to make), both acts were, in fact, both morally and legally wrong.

Old Dood
June 6th, 2010, 12:28 PM
Indeed, something Rush reminded him of later. He let his feelings for a friend that he just regained get in the way.

True. Col Young is not without 'Faults'. That is what I like about this show.
It shows us the little things that people do based on their emotions.
We are all emotional beings and no amount of 'Training' can change that about us.
(Unless that person is a psychopath... :P)

What is truly remarkable about this show for me is how they show people in a 'Real Situation' and their behavior reflects that.
General O'Neill chews out for Col Young for his decision but, even General O'Neill (as Col O'Neill) has made that same 'mistake' based on his emotions toward Major Carter in the past.

On a side note since General O'Neill brought up the fact that Col Carter 'left' two 302 pilots when they had to scoot then why didn't Col Carter just beam the pilots out of their 302s?
You would think that they would of had an Emergency Beam Out Protocol set up for a situation like that in place.

jelgate
June 6th, 2010, 01:39 PM
I'm not saying anyone is or isn't a villain. What I am saying is that it's inaccurate to claim that Young has never committed any act that was not for some greater good, when it's clear that he has. Whatever anyone thinks of his motivations (and I'm certainly not interested in getting into a debate about whether Rush or Telford deserved what Young dished out to them because that's not the point I'm trying to make), both acts were, in fact, both morally and legally wrong.

I never made such a claim. They is a huge middle ground between hero and villian

Blackhole
June 6th, 2010, 01:42 PM
That's just not true. Neither abandoning Rush on that planet nor impersonating both a subordinate and another member of the destiny crew in order to beat up on Telford were for the good of anybody. Way beyond morally questionable and well into criminal territory.


I'm not saying anyone is or isn't a villain. What I am saying is that it's inaccurate to claim that Young has never committed any act that was not for some greater good, when it's clear that he has. Whatever anyone thinks of his motivations (and I'm certainly not interested in getting into a debate about whether Rush or Telford deserved what Young dished out to them because that's not the point I'm trying to make), both acts were, in fact, both morally and legally wrong.

I don’t believe jelgate and others are suggesting that all of Young’s actions were always for the greater good or not both morally and legally wrong. I think they are suggesting there are significant precipitating and mitigating circumstances that must be taken into consideration when judging his actions.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 6th, 2010, 01:48 PM
I never made such a claim. They is a huge middle ground between hero and villian

especially when you start to think of heroes in the Joseph Campbell sense where they really aren't all that clean in any case. Heroes are never as clean as we think, and villains are never as simple or evil as we think. Hell, Kiva is likely a hero to her own people for that matter.

Kaiphantom
June 6th, 2010, 02:33 PM
I don’t believe jelgate and others are suggesting that all of Young’s actions were always for the greater good or not both morally and legally wrong. I think they are suggesting there are significant precipitating and mitigating circumstances that must be taken into consideration when judging his actions.

You're trying to frame the discussion terms of heroes and villainy, when that's the wrong question to be asking.

Blackhole
June 6th, 2010, 05:58 PM
You're trying to frame the discussion terms of heroes and villainy, when that's the wrong question to be asking.

I don't understand what you are referring to? Are you talking about the subject of the thread or my post you quoted?

Lahela
June 6th, 2010, 10:22 PM
I never made such a claim. They is a huge middle ground between hero and villian

Ya kinda did... :p


Not really. Some of things he has done are morally questionable but they have always been for the best of the crew

But yes, the middle ground is everything. Nobody is perfect, I've never claimed otherwise and my point wasn't to accuse Young of being a villain, but to show that they are pretty much all "villainous" at one time or another.

ladypredator
June 7th, 2010, 07:40 AM
I wouldn't see Young as a 'villian' - but he's certainly one of my least liked characters. He's obviously irrational and incapable of handling the stress of the situation. He's constantly making the wrong decisions based on his own emotional reactions rather than thinking through the consequences and making a rational judgement. I'm not sure he's capable of rational judgement at this point. He's falling apart and has been from the start.

He desperately needs to be seen as the hero and the good guy, even when his actions, that look good at the moment, end up causing far more damage in the long run. He is so desperate not to lose anyone, that he ends up risking killing everyone. Rush has pointed that out to him more than once - in "Water" and then repeated quite emphatically in "Incursion 1." And just like in "Darkness" when Young's foolishly demanding that it will be fixed and Rush is trying to tell him that 'just because you order it to be so, doesn't mean it's possible' - Young does it again in "Incursion 1" insisting he will save everyone and keep the ship and Rush is looking at him with the same incredulous astonishment at his stupidity that he expressed the first time.

Young's treatment of Rush has been absolutely horrific from the get-go. Young's been throwing around paranoid accusations from as far back as the end of "Light" - and it was that ridiculous accusation that Rush might have known that Destiny could survive going through a star that starts Rush's realization that Young has lost it. You can see it in Rush's face. And Young continues behaving that way - which is why Rush does what he does in "Justice."

What Rush does in "Justice" wasn't a good way to handle the situation. I still think it was more accidental than planned, but it was a mistake. He did the wrong thing. But it certainly didn't deserve what Young did. Young acted again out of his own irrational emotions - he deliberately beats him up and leaves him to die. That one action leads to Rush - and later Chloe - being abducted and tortured by aliens. It leads Camile and 90% of the civilians and scientists to fear him enough to try a mutiny. It leads to Rush having to suffer a life-threatening surgery to remove the tracker. It leads to two attacks on the ship by the aliens because Young was foolish enough to drain the shields to try to use a damaged weapons system on them. In fact, Young was so desperate to kill Rush and keep him from coming back that he orders Eli and Brodie to continue firing even after they've warned him that it will likely blow up Destiny. Not the actions of a rational man.

As soon as he knows that Telford is the traitor and that Rush is in serious danger, he should've broken the stone link -- and definitely he should've after Telford told him what the LA was doing. Instead, he leaves the one person they need the most in their hands to be tortured and threatened into giving them access to Destiny. Even Telford knew that they needed to get Rush back ASAP.

And Rush is right to know immediately that it was Telford that Young was trying to save, not Rush. After all, Young has nearly killed Rush on multiple occasions (abandoning him, trying to blow up the ship with him and Chloe on it, pointing his gun at Rush and threatening to shoot him, ordering TJ to do serious surgery on him that she's not trained to do, leaving him in the Alliance's hands) - Rush knows full well that Young is acting in his standard pattern -- risking everyone's lives to save Telford (not Rush) - one person he wants to save regardless of the consequences to everyone else. It was good to see O'Neill call him on that.

And it's clear that at the end of "Incursion 1" that it's O'Neill's dressing-down that makes him finally take action. Again, he's not acting out of rational thinking or planning, he's trying to prove himself the hero again.

Young should not be in command of anything. He's outright dangerous to himself and everyone around him.

Unfortunately, they don't have a lot of other options. Camile's not up to it. Scott doesn't have the brains of a chimpanzee. Rush is only interested in the science and exploring Destiny. TJ's pregnant (yet another Young ****up, literally). Can't trust Telford or what the brainwashing might have done to him. Greer's openly nuts. Chloe's way too immature - though she has potential for the future. James has potential too if she could get out from under and learn some confidence.

But still - Young's a disaster.

Blistna
June 7th, 2010, 08:22 AM
I don't think of him as a villain but I don't think of him as a leader either. He has made many mistakes, and yes this is an extreme situation -- even for Stargate -- but as it is, he never should have been there.

With that said, he is -- for now -- the only leader on that ship who is capable of handling military threats. Scout is too young and not ready for this type of command, Greer isn't a leader and he would tell you that and TJ has a baby to worry about. So for now, they don't have a better choice.

Kaiphantom
June 7th, 2010, 08:44 AM
I don't understand what you are referring to? Are you talking about the subject of the thread or my post you quoted?

Both. The terms "Hero" and "Villain" are mostly useless here; in one respect. Young is a "good guy" because he's one of the regular cast, and that's about it. Some times he serves a protagonist role, and sometimes an antagonist role; and sometimes it's not clear.

But the important thing is, as you said, to judge each action of his on it's merits, with respect to his general history. And it's fairly clear that he made some bad choices in the past, and bad choices in this episode. In a way, he's similar to Rush, who made a bad choice when he chose to dial the 9th chevron at the start. It was stupid, but it was a plot necessity to get people onto the Destiny. In this case, it's a plot necessity to get the LA onto the ship and keep them there, so Young had to be written to make stupid decisions.

But there is a key difference; I can't think of a better way to initially get all the people on the Destiny in Episode 1. And it's a small suspension of disbelief I can accept, knowing Rush's character; he's extremely driven to find out where it leads, and doesn't care for anything else (and he's growing out of that slowly).

For Incursion and Young, I can think of several different ways to write that scenario and have Young *not* be an idiot. Since you hold him in high regard, I'm sure you would have liked to see him written much better, and not be his fault that the LA are still alive. I would have given the LA something like goa'uld grenades, or an aoe stunner like Todd used; something that allowed them to knock people out and get the doors open asap so that they could breathe.

LA starts coming through, Young is watching, waiting for most of them to be there before starting the venting. Young sees Telford, orders the stones shut off, perhaps says, "Sorry David" before ordering the venting as the wormhole shuts off. Kiva quickly realizes what's going on as people have trouble breathing, orders the use of their door-openers and breathing masks(they have some, but not many). Some LA people die, but they get the doors open, leaving Young with no choice but to restore the atmosphere. A firefight starts, but a couple of Goa'uld grenades are thrown which knock out the fire teams and allow them to take prisoners.

There ya go; LA on the ship, and Young did everything he could, given the short time frame.

Blackhole
June 7th, 2010, 11:14 AM
Both. The terms "Hero" and "Villain" are mostly useless here; in one respect. Young is a "good guy" because he's one of the regular cast, and that's about it. Some times he serves a protagonist role, and sometimes an antagonist role; and sometimes it's not clear.

But the important thing is, as you said, to judge each action of his on it's merits, with respect to his general history. And it's fairly clear that he made some bad choices in the past, and bad choices in this episode. In a way, he's similar to Rush, who made a bad choice when he chose to dial the 9th chevron at the start. It was stupid, but it was a plot necessity to get people onto the Destiny. In this case, it's a plot necessity to get the LA onto the ship and keep them there, so Young had to be written to make stupid decisions.

But there is a key difference; I can't think of a better way to initially get all the people on the Destiny in Episode 1. And it's a small suspension of disbelief I can accept, knowing Rush's character; he's extremely driven to find out where it leads, and doesn't care for anything else (and he's growing out of that slowly).

For Incursion and Young, I can think of several different ways to write that scenario and have Young *not* be an idiot. Since you hold him in high regard, I'm sure you would have liked to see him written much better, and not be his fault that the LA are still alive. I would have given the LA something like goa'uld grenades, or an aoe stunner like Todd used; something that allowed them to knock people out and get the doors open asap so that they could breathe.

LA starts coming through, Young is watching, waiting for most of them to be there before starting the venting. Young sees Telford, orders the stones shut off, perhaps says, "Sorry David" before ordering the venting as the wormhole shuts off. Kiva quickly realizes what's going on as people have trouble breathing, orders the use of their door-openers and breathing masks(they have some, but not many). Some LA people die, but they get the doors open, leaving Young with no choice but to restore the atmosphere. A firefight starts, but a couple of Goa'uld grenades are thrown which knock out the fire teams and allow them to take prisoners.

There ya go; LA on the ship, and Young did everything he could, given the short time frame.

I agree that your scenario would have been a more effective strategic action but it would still have killed Telford and from Young’s thinking at the time Rush as well. Your point that Young could have ordered their stones disconnected is valid but in the context of the episode none of them realized it. At the time everyone believed evacuating the gate room would have killed both of them. Young chose to delay because he wanted to try to negotiate first and save both of their lives if possible.

I have changed my mind and I no longer think that his decision makes him incompetent but he may have demonstrated poor judgment. With two lives in the balance Young gambled; sometimes the gamble doesn’t pay off but it doesn’t necessarily mean that he was wrong to try. In Stargate’s fictional world imo, I would rather see a commander who is reluctant to sacrifice some of his own than one who would do so readily.

Maybe the writers weren’t being as logical as you have just been? We don’t know if they are deliberately trying to portray Young as using poor judgment and making a mistake or if they didn’t think there would be some who would conclude that he had. From JM blog you quoted it seems he didn’t think Young came across as demonstrating poor judgment but then why did they have O’Neil telling him he should have sacrificed both of them and why did he not break their stone connection sooner? We will have to see in later episodes how this plays out. Will Young be haunted by his decision or will it all work out in the end so no harm no foul? SGU delights in presenting flawed characters in ambiguous situations and that may be what they are doing now. I look forward to finding out.

There is a strategy that Young could have employed that would have countered any explosives or door opening technology that LA tried. All Young had to do was immediately retreat with his men past an airtight door close it and proceed with the evacuation. If it takes less than a minute to go to vacuum then LA would never have gotten through both the first and second set of doors before passing out.

Kaiphantom
June 7th, 2010, 12:01 PM
The thing is... a colonel isn't supposed to "gamble" if he can help it. In any combat, you press your advantage and put the enemy down ASAP; to do otherwise, is to risk defeat. Never assume your advantage will last.

This is basic military training, something Young ignored. Maybe it was their intention to make him look like an idiot, but I dearly wished they didn't make him look this bad.

Blackhole
June 7th, 2010, 12:54 PM
The thing is... a colonel isn't supposed to "gamble" if he can help it. In any combat, you press your advantage and put the enemy down ASAP; to do otherwise, is to risk defeat. Never assume your advantage will last.

This is basic military training, something Young ignored. Maybe it was their intention to make him look like an idiot, but I dearly wished they didn't make him look this bad.

I think if you reviewed all the past Stargate episodes that had similar scenarios I think you would find they almost always opted for the delay option that preserved lives and hoped it would work out. Imo Young's scenario is probably typical to how things usually go down.

But I can understand your objection; we will have to wait and see if SGU intends for Young to be haunted by his decision or if it all works out well in the end and everything will be forgotten.

Major_Griff
June 7th, 2010, 07:07 PM
I think if you reviewed all the past Stargate episodes that had similar scenarios I think you would find they almost always opted for the delay option that preserved lives and hoped it would work out. Imo Young's scenario is probably typical to how things usually go down.

But I can understand your objection; we will have to wait and see if SGU intends for Young to be haunted by his decision or if it all works out well in the end and everything will be forgotten.

Indeed, it just happened that it would work out by the end of the episode. I notice that a lot of people's complaints about this show are mostly because things aren't all explained up front or by the end of the ep as they had been in previous SG. I bet by the end of this arc Young will look better. It won't be all peaches and cream since this is SGU, after all, but he won't look nearly as bad for this once we see how it turns out, imo.

jelgate
June 7th, 2010, 07:11 PM
Indeed, it just happened that it would work out by the end of the episode. I notice that a lot of people's complaints about this show are mostly because things aren't all explained up front or by the end of the ep as they had been in previous SG. I bet by the end of this arc Young will look better. It won't be all peaches and cream since this is SGU, after all, but he won't look nearly as bad for this once we see how it turns out, imo.

I doubt it. Young is a damned if you do and damned if you don't. I can see Rush fans and the Telford fan would be making this vile accusations if he had tried to vent the gateroom

Major_Griff
June 7th, 2010, 07:13 PM
I doubt it. Young is a damned if you do and damned if you don't. I can see Rush fans and the Telford fan would be making this vile accusations if he had tried to vent the gateroom

Well, he'll look better to people who aren't determined to hate him, any way.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 7th, 2010, 07:17 PM
Indeed, it just happened that it would work out by the end of the episode. I notice that a lot of people's complaints about this show are mostly because things aren't all explained up front or by the end of the ep as they had been in previous SG. I bet by the end of this arc Young will look better. It won't be all peaches and cream since this is SGU, after all, but he won't look nearly as bad for this once we see how it turns out, imo.You're really onto something there. Being used to episodic stories, you'd watch the episode and come away with "fail" when, in the spirit of SGU's storytelling style, this particular "episode" or arc hasn't finished yet


I doubt it. Young is a damned if you do and damned if you don't. I can see Rush fans and the Telford fan would be making this vile accusations if he had tried to vent the gateroom


Well, he'll look better to people who aren't determined to hate him, any way.I think you're both right here. For some it wouldn't matter what Young did as he'd be damned for any action, no matter what the result was. But yes, those who don't hate the character will get a better look.

Rubaiyat
June 7th, 2010, 08:26 PM
In the realm of decision making you also have to look at the fact that when Young makes the call to do it the hard way rather than vent the gate room he believes that they have them trapped in the gateroom. He doesn't anticipate the nifty door devices that the LA brought along and when he hears that they appear to have something to open the door he tells Brody to vent the room but it's too late as the doors are already opening.

Blackhole
June 7th, 2010, 08:48 PM
Indeed, it just happened that it would work out by the end of the episode. I notice that a lot of people's complaints about this show are mostly because things aren't all explained up front or by the end of the ep as they had been in previous SG. I bet by the end of this arc Young will look better. It won't be all peaches and cream since this is SGU, after all, but he won't look nearly as bad for this once we see how it turns out, imo.

Those are my expectations as well and I would be really surprised if the arc didn't extend into at least the first episode of next season.

ckwongau
June 7th, 2010, 10:00 PM
The fact is he thought that both Rush and Telford would die. He thought it was Rush in the gateroom and decided not to vent the atmo. The idea that he just wanted to save Telford is absurd. You really think that if Rush was there in his own body Young wouldn't have hesitated?

Col Young knew Rush was never in the gate room with the lucian alliance
I just check the transcript
http://www.gateworld.net/universe/s1/transcripts/119.shtml


RUSH (to Young): Why didn't you evacuate the compartment to space?

YOUNG: That was the plan.

VOLKER (to Rush): He didn't do it to save you.

RUSH: Not me. The connection was severed the minute I stepped through the Gate.

(He and Volker look across at Young who declines to answer their implied questions.)


It seems one of new feature of Earth's stone communication device.The stone disconnect when someone goes through a stargate wormhole.
It must be a earth 's new stone feature, because in SGA when that SGA doctor Jennifer Keller accidentally switch with another criminal in Pegasus, the whole SGA went to another planet include the doctor Jennifer Keller's body with someone mind.The orignal Ancient stone communication control device is must be more advance, and the stargate can't disrupted the stone connection, but the Earth stone communication device can't sustain the connection inside a stargate worm hole.

Rush knew about the automatic stone disconnection thing, and and he imply Col Young knew about it too.

So What is Young's true reason for not disconnect the stone and send Teford back earlier even after Teford had requested , and not vent the air out of the gateroom the moment the lucian solider got onboard.

When the Lucian alliance try to dial the nine chervon, Destiny jump of of the FTL drive space.because someone was dialing the Ninth chervon.
In the past episodes , when the ship jump out of FTL drive (or FTL space) , the stone signal get disrupted and people switch back for a few moment. It happen when Earth' s scientist team tried to
get Destiny re-charge from the sun and dial back to Earth inside the sun , and when Camile switch witht that disable scientist.
why didn't Rush and Telford swithch back temporarily ?
If Rush and Telford switch back a few moment before the worm hole get connected , then Rush and Telford could tell Young a bit more useful information , Dr Rush would say ,something like" they are comming Disconnect the Stone ASAP, i don't want to be torture any more, and vent the gateroom's atmosphere"

Blackhole
June 8th, 2010, 04:15 AM
Col Young knew Rush was never in the gate room with the lucian alliance
I just check the transcript
http://www.gateworld.net/universe/s1/transcripts/119.shtml

It seems one of new feature of Earth's stone communication device.The stone disconnect when someone goes through a stargate wormhole.
It must be a earth 's new stone feature, because in SGA when that SGA doctor Jennifer Keller accidentally switch with another criminal in Pegasus, the whole SGA went to another planet include the doctor Jennifer Keller's body with someone mind.The orignal Ancient stone communication control device is must be more advance, and the stargate can't disrupted the stone connection, but the Earth stone communication device can sustain the connection inside a stargate worm hole.

Rush knew about the automatic stone disconnection thing, and and he imply Col Young knew about it too.

So What is Young's true reason for not disconnect the stone and send Teford back earlier even after Teford had requested , and not vent the air out of the gateroom the moment the lucian solider got onboard.

When the Lucian alliance try to dial the nine chervon, Destiny jump of of the FTL drive space.because someone was dialing the Ninth chervon.
In the past episodes , when the ship jump out of FTL drive (or FTL space) , the stone signal get disrupted and people switch back for a few moment. It happen when Earth' s scientist team tried to
get Destiny re-charge from the sun and dial back to Earth inside the sun , and when Camile switch witht that disable scientist.
why didn't Rush and Telford swithch back temporarily ?
If Rush and Telford switch back a few moment before the worm hole get connected , then Rush and Telford could tell Young a bit more useful information , Dr Rush would say ,something like" they are comming Disconnect the Stone ASAP, i don't want to be torture any more, and vent the gateroom's atmosphere"

The Atlantis episode would support the fact that Young expected their consciousness to remain switched. I think the line that Callie has is wrong. I listened to the episode and I think Volker said: "He did it to save you." If Volker had said "didn't" then why would Rush have corrected him? Rush's reply makes sense if Volker said "did" not "didn't". And since TJ never called Young how would he have known that traveling through the wormhole had broken the connection?

garhkal
June 8th, 2010, 05:20 AM
Not really. Some of things he has done are morally questionable but they have always been for the best of the crew

How has taking over someone elses body to pound a fellow officer been in the best interest of the crew?
What about stranding your lead scientist cause you and him have issues?

Ser Scot A Ellison
June 8th, 2010, 05:56 AM
Blackhole,


Young is clearly not a villain.

I hope that Young’s action not to evacuate the air from the Gateroom to protect both Rush and Telford’s lives puts to rest once and for all the assertion by some that Young still has it in for Rush or that he is this heartless villain. His restraint clearly demonstrates that he tried to do the right thing and to protect the lives of all those under his command. O’Neil chastised him directly for not sacrificing both their lives and threatened to remove him from command because of it. Although in all fairness O’Neil is a hypocrite; when the Replicators still had Sam he could have stopped them if he had used his disrupter weapon on their ship before it lifted off; he was unwilling to fire because it would have meant sacrificing her life to do so.

Imo Young’s action to maroon Rush on the planet was an isolated incident; it was a clear mistake done in anger and was provoked by Rush’s actions and behaviors. Since Divided Rush has been a different man and the animosity between them is no longer present anywhere to the degree it had been before.

I dearly hope this series doesn't break down into characters that are as simplistic as "heros" and "villians". I'd much rather have them continue to be complex individuals with personal motivations, beliefs, and morals that doen't always lead them down the straight and narrow path. Has there been anyone, since that guy a couple of millenia ago, who've been able to be 100% hero?

jelgate
June 8th, 2010, 06:31 AM
How has taking over someone elses body to pound a fellow officer been in the best interest of the crew?
What about stranding your lead scientist cause you and him have issues?
Scroll down. I already addressed this in a previous post

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 8th, 2010, 07:51 AM
The Atlantis episode would support the fact that Young expected their consciousness to remain switched. I think the line that Callie has is wrong. I listened to the episode and I think Volker said: "He did it to save you." If Volker had said "didn't" then why would Rush have corrected him? Rush's reply makes sense if Volker said "did" not "didn't". And since TJ never called Young how would he have known that traveling through the wormhole had broken the connection?I think that's an error in the transcript also. I also heard "He did it to save you".


Blackhole,



I dearly hope this series doesn't break down into characters that are as simplistic as "heros" and "villians". I'd much rather have them continue to be complex individuals with personal motivations, beliefs, and morals that doen't always lead them down the straight and narrow path. Has there been anyone, since that guy a couple of millenia ago, who've been able to be 100% hero?amen!

longlobo
June 12th, 2010, 04:31 PM
Young is not villain, he is just stupid. If mckay or sheppard were in charged, they would have lower the pressure in gateroom to a level ppl in it would just barely alive. Well, consider he who used to run base security(i guess something like making a decision who got to wash the toitel), he is doing very well.

Sussitout
June 17th, 2010, 04:06 AM
O'Neil gave Young a hard time because he is often not on top of the situation. This is, after all, Sci fi, and the writers can do what the hell they like, make the actors heroes, fools or boffins. Young dithers and often makes the wrong decisions. He beat the crap out of Rush and left him to DIE! I agree with what at least one other person said on this thread that the writers want to make Young incompetent. He is kind of miserable, often very quiet and you can't even hear him! The writers want him to lack all charm, wit and charisma. Is he a villian? No - he is just not up to the job. Sorry this is polemical but what the heck O'Neil is a born leader Young is simply a loser. LOL