Re: Tere Campbell's review on "Abyss"

[Katerine]

First of all, I'm hoping the reason I haven't seen any other threads of this type is that the reviews are a new feature, as opposed to "I'm doing this wrong..." If this is the wrong place for them, I apologize; this was where the link at the bottom of the review took me. I'd kind of expected it to take me to an existing thread for "Talk about the review to 'Abyss' here!"

Anyway...

I agree with many of the points presented in the review, but there are a couple that I wanted to comment on:

The scenes between O'Neill and Daniel Jackson, reprised by Michael Shanks, seem surreal. Until the end, you're still never really sure that Daniel is Daniel and not some figment of Jack's imagination, or a Goa'uld trick. It isn't until Daniel returns from eavesdropping at the SGC that I was certain who we'd seen is actually the ascended Dr. Jackson and not some chimera.

That's... interesting. Perhaps it was the fact that this episode was spoiled for me (I did, in fact, only see the episode for the first time three days ago. I discovered Stargate about 6 months ago, and have been watching the episodes in order on DVD's as soon as I can get them from the library), but I knew right away that it was really Daniel. Well, maybe not right away, but his reaction to the shoe was a pretty dead giveaway. And his insistence on helping Jack ascend against Jack's will. Not to mention, "I am not talking like Oma Desala! If I were talking like Oma Desala, I'd say something like 'If you immediately know the candlelight is fire, then the meal was cooked a long time ago,' or something like that." Jack wasn't there for either of the times Daniel heard that - how would he know about that particular quote?

As much as I enjoyed Michael Shanks' reprisal of Daniel, I am perplexed, as the only reason he seems to be in the episode is to eavesdrop on the SGC so Jack can be warned when it is time to escape. Daniel's presence may have offered a small comfort to Jack, but it equally unnerved and irritated Jack because of Daniel's unwillingness to bend the rules for a friend.

There are several points to Daniel being in the episode that I can see:

1. It lays some subtle clues that all is not well in Ascended-land, especially for Daniel. Even given the fact that he's had several months to get used to the fact that power is evidently inversely proportional to freedom, he's still having troubles with the fact that Jack is being forced to slowly lose his soul, and Daniel has to stand by and do nothing. Daniel's never taken well to those kinds of situations. Shanks underplayed that frustration, but it's still there, and his blink-and-you-miss-it reference to "the Others would have stopped you" gives us a much-needed connection to Orlin's statements in "Ascended."
   
   In addition to Daniel's frustration at the fact that he can, but he can't, help Jack, you also get little hints of tension between Daniel and Oma. He's actually offended when Jack says he sounds like Oma. I'd be very interested in seeing some follow-up on that relationship, if it's still possible. So far, I've seen their relationship as a kind of idealistic "mother/son" type of relationship, and it seems Daniel may be entering his teenage years.
   
2. There are two popular theories for how Jonas, Sam, and Teal'c were able to figure out where Jack was, and how to give him a chance to get out:
   
   - The team came up with the theories and ideas on their own, through a remarkable display of teamwork
   - Daniel gave them a few subtle "nudges" without their realizing it
   
   I personally believe it's the latter.
   
   First of all, there's the timing. Sam came up with the idea that the Lotar was a woman and Kanan's activities were love-related, therefore Jack was on Ba'al's planet, and then Teal'c came up with the idea of using another System Lord as a distraction to give Jack a chance. Both of these ideas occurred while Daniel was away from Jack, on the grounds that "there was something I needed to do."
   
   Second, note the phrasing Daniel uses... "I know, I'm sorry, there was something I needed to do." Not, "I needed to see if there's a plan to help you," which was what Daniel would have said if that were truly all he was doing. Also, note that he doesn't meet Jack's eyes and looks almost smug when he tells Jack that he didn't do anything. He shows classic Daniel "I'm hiding something" body language here. He's able to meet Jack's eyes again when he says that it was Sam and Teal'c and Jonas, because, in a way, that's definitely true... it was Sam and Teal'c and Jonas who enabled the plan - regardless of who came up with the plan in the first place.
   
   Third, the ideas occurred just after Jack made it absolutely clear that he had no intention of letting Daniel help him ascend, and was instead asking Daniel to make sure the next time he died it would be the last, which Daniel would not do. Given Daniel's nature, this would have essentially forced Daniel to come up with something else, since his first plan (ascension) wasn't going to work. Daniel's not the kind of person who would just give up when his first plan doesn't work.
   
   Fourth, while Jonas appears to have come up with his contribution on his own, Sam's and Teal'c's main contributions to Jack's rescue are far more reminescent of Daniel than they are of Sam and Teal'c. Here, we see Sam making a logical leap that literally comes out of nowhere, that the Lotar was a woman and there may have been an affair. Nobody said anything to prompt this idea, which is very uncharacteristic of Sam - her best ideas always come when somebody says something to her. In fact, in the past, Sam's biggest contributions to the team have always been of the "you know, that's a good point. And here's a workable plan based on that point," variety. Not, "You know, I saw something five hours ago that just got me thinking that there may be some people relationship indicated between the lines here." That's Daniel. Also, Teal'c is not the sort of person who would come up with the idea of using a System Lord as a distraction, but it's very like Daniel to take what Jonas said and figure out a way to use that.
   
   Finally, when Sam gets her idea, listen to the music. That's "Ascended!Daniel" music.
   
3. Regardless of whether Sam, Teal'c, and Jonas were prompted by Daniel or not, the fact is they worked very well as a team. Even - especially - if Daniel prompted them, this says a lot for the team's ability to move forward without Daniel, if that makes any sense. See, if Daniel truly didn't do anything but watch as Sam, Teal'c, and Jonas came up with the idea, this says that the team is getting to the point where it can function just fine without him. And if he did do something, he didn't say so. Any way you look at it, the fact remains that all Daniel tells Jack is, "it was Sam and Teal'c, and Jonas too" - thereby giving both Jack and the fans a kind of blessing, saying that it's ok to move on.

[ShadowMaat]

Speaking personally, even WITH the spoilers about Daniel in Abyss I wasn't 100% sure that Jack wasn't hallucinating... or that it might have been someone impersonating Daniel for some malevolent purpose (like getting Jack to ascend, which seemed, to me, to be the most insanely crack-headed moronic suggestion in the history of crack-headed suggestions on the show).

As for Daniel's purpose... your mileage may vary. If you saw all those reasons for Daniel to be there, then more power to you. Personally, I figured it was just an excuse to use Daniel and appease the fans and that there wasn't much actual POINT to it other than some good Jack/Daniel scenes (be it platonic or shippy, depending on your interests). Sure there was the stuff about having Jack "hang in there" and there was what whole possibility of ascension thing, but the hanging in there stuff, at least, could have been accomplished in other ways.

And again, personally, I loathe the idea that Daniel had anything to do with what the rest of the team was thinking/doing. Having Daniel be responsible for EVERYTHING makes the others look incredibly incompetent and it makes Daniel far too godlike for my tastes.

Abyss was a good ep, don't get me wrong, but I have certain personal "issues" with it. *shrug* Not afraid to admit it, but it did take away from some of my enjoyment of the ep and since my point is that not everyone thinks/feels the same way about everything, well... hopefully I've managed to establish that.

[Katerine]

...or that it might have been someone impersonating Daniel for some malevolent purpose (like getting Jack to ascend, which seemed, to me, to be the most insanely crack-headed moronic suggestion in the history of crack-headed suggestions on the show).

Yes, that wasn't exactly Daniel's shining moment, was it? *LOL* If I hadn't already pretty much known was going to happen in the episode, I wouldn't have believed it. Well, actually, I would have believed it - in some ways, Daniel has always been remarkably blind to the fact that he and Jack are two very different people. But still... how he could ever have thought that Jack could "open his mind" is beyond me. Even Jack knew better.

Daniel: Come on, Jack, do you think the Asgaard named a ship after you because it was a cool name? They saw your potential - humanity's potential - in you. It's the same thing Oma saw in me.

Me: Uh... no. Jack does epitomize humanity's potential in some ways, and Daniel does epitomize humanity's potential in some ways - but they're not the same ways. Jack was right - he's not Daniel. The things Oma saw in Daniel don't exist in Jack.

And again, personally, I loathe the idea that Daniel had anything to do with what the rest of the team was thinking/doing. Having Daniel be responsible for EVERYTHING makes the others look incredibly incompetent and it makes Daniel far too godlike for my tastes.

I can definitely see why that would be the case if Daniel had single-handedly fixed this impossible situation without any help from anybody else, but that's not what I meant to imply in my original post.

Just because Daniel might have had something to do with the plan the rest of the team came up with, doesn't automatically mean he had everything to do with it. Personally, I think Jonas's input (largely because of the timing) was entirely Jonas's doing, and Sam and Teal'c had a bunch of input themselves. For example, I think Daniel may have whispered in Sam's mind something along the lines of, "Kanan used Ba'al's Lotar to get into Ba'al's personal quarters? How?" But it was Sam who answered that question. It was Sam who theorized about how Tok'ra symbiotes are passionate enough to fall in love and, with Jonas, came up with the theory about the effect Jack's mind would have had on Kanan. Sam was probably also the one to figure out how to contact Yu, and she and Teal'c together probably planned the best way to manipulate Yu into doing what they wanted. The only thing I think Daniel may have done in this entire scenario was ask that initial question to get Sam on the right track. That's probably all he could do.

The reason I think Daniel had some secret input is that all of the things I listed above are typical of Sam's strengths. But coming up with theories surrounding personal relationships out of the blue, with no prompting whatsoever, is not one of Sam's strengths... yet according to all appearances, that's exactly what she did.

And, again, there was the music...

Likewise, the only thing I think Daniel might have done in Teal'c's quarters was repeat Jonas's words about how Ba'al's fortress contains a bunch of experiments that are kept secret from the other System Lords. It was Teal'c who turned it into a plan. Although, to be honest, the big reason I think Daniel did anything at all here is that if Daniel helped Sam he should have helped Teal'c too. And also, again, Teal'c came up with the idea out of nowhere.

And it just seems extremely unlike Daniel to a) leave Jack alone when Jack needed his company, just to spy on the rest of the team, and b) not come up with a way to help while still obeying the spirit (if not the letter) of the law.

[ShadowMaat]

I do remember Joe Mallozzi commenting in an SG1fans chat after that ep that Daniel had nothing to do with the others and their plan. He's the King of Doublespeak, but I happen to LIKE the idea that Daniel had zero input with the rest of the team. You may think it's incoceivable that Sam or the others could put the bits together, but I find it absolutely 100% INTOLERABLE that he's the end-all, be-all of existence. Even "whispering" hints in their minds is NOT something I am willing to consider. I don't care if all the producers come out and say, "Yes, that's exactly what happened, Daniel whispered hints." I steadfastedly refuse to believe it because it would poison everything for me. Not just that ep, but Daniel's entire ascension and the development of all of the other characters as well. When I say I have issues, I'm not kidding.

As for Daniel leaving, yes, it did cross my mind that he was visiting the team, but I also thought he was off doing something completely unrelated. Like, he was on assignment for Oma and was sneaking away to help Jack, then running back so Oma wouldn't get suspicious. That interpretation works for me.

As for the music, I don't notice it so it doesn't affect me in the slightest. Saying "Oh, but they were playing THAT MUSIC!" is equivalent of saying, "Oh, but the WALLS WERE GREEN!" *shrug* Can't effect me if I don't know and don't care.

[Katerine]

Wow. You weren't kidding about the issues, were you?

The way I see it, when you get right down to it, it really doesn't matter whether Daniel helped or not. Unless, of course, you care to figure out exactly what Ascended people are and are not allowed to do, in which case this is a very useful thing to know. But again, I think he did provide concrete help, but even if he didn't, it really doesn't matter. Either way, Sam, Teal'c, and Jonas showed their first signs of truly being able to work as a team. And Daniel got a chance to give his blessing to the new team.

Prior to "Abyss," there's a lot of rampant Jonas-bashing (particularly Jonas-bashing that directly results from Jonas committing the mortal sin of not being Daniel). I'm not just talking about the fans here - Jack, Sam, and Teal'c (but especially Jack) were clearly still having major problems considering Jonas to be a part of the team. Some of that is the normal "getting to know you" period, but a really big part of the trouble is they still feel a strong loyalty towards Daniel. They - especially Jack - would feel they're betraying Daniel if they fully accept Jonas as a member of the team. Pretty much the only chance Jonas had of ever being fully accepted as a member of SG-1 is if Jack accepts him, and the only way that could happen is if Daniel gave his blessing.

I think the teamwork in "Abyss" goes a long way towards the developing camaraderie with Jonas that you see in "Shadow Play," as far as Sam and Teal'c are concerned (and, again, the teamwork is the same regardless of whether Daniel contributed anything at all). And Jack is also starting to warm to Jonas in "Shadow Play," which I think has a lot to do with Daniel's attitude towards Jonas in "Abyss."

And again, Daniel's appearance also showed us something of what was going on with the Ancients. And it showed us something of what his life is like, which is something that I, for one, couldn't have gone without knowing. And, like all Jack/Daniel moments, it gave good character development for both characters.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that, regardless of what Daniel did to help Jack in "Abyss" (if he succeeded in doing anything concrete at all), Daniel's appearance did have a definite point, as far as the show was concerned.

[keshou]

Abyss is an interesting episode and an interesting script. Lots of different interpretations in fandom on this one.

I personally loved the episode and I came away thinking that Daniel had definitely communicated with Teal'c during his meditation. To me that was something that Daniel, as an Ancient, could slip in and do without Oma noticing. The way Teal'c eyes flew open it was like a bug was just put in his ear. After that I think the ball was rolling, the whole team contributed to the plan with their usual brilliance and Jack was rescued. I didn't think Daniel did it all, but I think he bent the rules and gave Teal'c the original idea since he had a lot of information they didn't have.

I remember being surprised after watching the episode when I came online and found everyone had such different opinions! lol Some people thought Daniel's appearance was totally useless and that he stood by while Jack was tortured and did nothing. Others were on the opposite side of the spectrum and thought Daniel had done everything he was capable of doing (without Oma yanking him out of there) including influencing everyone and their dog at the SGC. Without him Jack wouldn't be alive.

I don't know - I thought it was a very entertaining episode, with wonderful perfomances from RDA (maybe his best ever) and MS. Fabulous character moments that really highlighted the complicated relationship these two characters had in the first five seasons of the show. I also thought it was an important episode in that it set off a pivotal three-episode story arc for the Daniel character, culminating in Full Circle.

I've heard that JM said Daniel didn't do anything. I've also heard that Brad Wright said at one point that Daniel certainly could have done something - it was open to interpretation. Don't have any links, don't remember where I saw it.

The Directors Series on Abyss is really fascinating. I came away with the impression that MS thought Daniel left Jack to help, to find his own way around the Ancient's rules, but couldn't reveal anything to Jack when he got back. But no clear answers were given so that could have been MS's interpretation of the script.

My broad, hand-wave generalization is that the more one likes or liked Daniel as a character the more you thought he did to influence the happenings at the SGC. The less you like Daniel as a character, the more willing you are to believe he didn't do anything to help Jack. There was a lot of turmoil in fandom at the time and I think the review of the episode somewhat reflects that.

[Madeleine]

I do remember Joe Mallozzi commenting in an SG1fans chat after that ep that Daniel had nothing to do with the others and their plan.

Did he? MW said the exact opposite, and BW said he wrote it with the intent that it should be taken that Daniel helped. Which in conjunction is actually quite nice, if you think about it. Since the writers can contradict themselves so completely it stands to reason that we don't have to believe a single word any of them ever says about character motivations, offscreen stuff or 'intent' of a scene, and it frees us all to care only about what we see *on the screen*, and what makes the most sense to us personally.

To me it was totally obvious that Daniel gave an idea to Teal'c, and always a possibility that he nudged Sam and Jonas. I'm strong-minded enough that this would have remained my 'canon' even if every PTB were to come out belie it; it makes the most sense to me given what was on the screen. (Not that any other interpretation is wrong or illogical, just that I see what *I* see.) But still, to know that there is not only no official canon of offscreen/intent but that it's official for more than one interpretation to be permissable is pretty pleasant.

[GateAngel]

Did he? MW said the exact opposite, and BW said he wrote it with the intent that it should be taken that Daniel helped. Which in conjunction is actually quite nice, if you think about it. Since the writers can contradict themselves so completely it stands to reason that we don't have to believe a single word any of them ever says about character motivations, offscreen stuff or 'intent' of a scene, and it frees us all to care only about what we see *on the screen*, and what makes the most sense to us personally.

To me it was totally obvious that Daniel gave an idea to Teal'c, and always a possibility that he nudged Sam and Jonas. I'm strong-minded enough that this would have remained my 'canon' even if every PTB were to come out belie it; it makes the most sense to me given what was on the screen. (Not that any other interpretation is wrong or illogical, just that I see what *I* see.) But still, to know that there is not only no official canon of offscreen/intent but that it's official for more than one interpretation to be permissable is pretty pleasant.

There was a white sweater in that episode..I thought it was cream colored

I too read that Martin Wood and Brad Wright saying that it was intended for it to mean that Daniel communicated with them and this was to me reinforced in S8 episode Lockdown when <highlight to read spoilers>

It was shown that the ascended can control human bodies and influence their owner's behavior. Daniel could have been in control of Teal'c long enough to plant an idea then leave without damaging him because of the symbiote.