Todd's plan B

[Freawaru]

I think it really made no sense at all for Todd to leave the Daedalus crew on the ship to die. I mean, even if their survival was not his priority at the moment (or ever, who knows?) the Wraith had more than enough time to feed on the crew before leaving the ship to it's fate. More than a hundred humans of Earth and all of them healthy - sounds like a complete waste to me.

So I have been thinking whether Todd might have had a plan B. Had there been a way for him to crash the ship on the Attero device (nice how he learned that from Sheppard in Spoils of War) without the crew on board?

I think the plan might have been to collect the crew into the Wraith ship like they do during cullings. They can "beam" through walls and Todd had the crew nicely located in a hangar, didn't he? Well, until Ronon opened the door and the crew spread all through the ship again...

What do you think? Are there other ways Todd might have intended to save the crew of the Daedalus?

[Lady Barbossa]

An interesting question indeed.
Todd is not the type of Wraith to drain the life out of the Daedalus crew like that. Just simply is not Todd's thing.

All in all, it's difficult to nitpick about Todd doing this sort of thing... when it really all boils down to the Writers! They wrote in this sort of scenario for the sake of the story. Ther Writers control the content and direction of the story (sort of). They even control Todd.


~Lady B

[Bajka20]

Todd has always a plan B.

[thekillman]

todd has an entire alphabet of plans.

as to feeding on the crew... he needed hostages. randomly feeding on people for the sake of food doesn't make you a reliable person.

[dasNdanger]

I'm not sure that transport had beaming tech on it - but even if it did, I think Todd was too pissed to think about saving the crew.

I think this tells us quite a bit about Todd's relationship with the Lanteans...

1. No matter how low they may be on provisions, Todd wasn't going to risk any future relations with the Stargate folks by feeding on the crew. Yes, the people would have died either way, but one (feeding) would have been a willful, defiant act, while the other (dying in the crash) could be seen as an unavoidable complication.

2. Todd is Wraith - he's not going to go out of his way to save humans in a crisis - his first priority is saving his own (especially those submissive to his lead).

3. One of the things I love about the Wraith is that they can work themselves up into one heck of a miserable mood. In The Lost Tribe Todd did just that - he was mad, he was disagreeable, he was - as Rodney would say - 'cranky'. Nothing is more entertaining than a cranky Wraith! Todd was allowing his emotions (in this case, his very Wraithy anger) to control him - it's much like their need to feed, almost instinctive - and because he believed that the Lanteans were responsible for turning on the Attero Device which lead to the deaths of untold Wraith, he was probably just pissed off enough to let those humans aboard the Daedalus die as 'paybacks' (paybacks in HIS mind...but to Sheppard he would explain it away as an unfortunate outcome to an unavoidable situation...sweet talker that he is. )

At least, that's how I see it. I was just under the impression that Todd's actions were meant to show that he can be quite spiteful, while justifying his actions as a necessary evil.

das

[Isolde]

I rather like the idea you put forward and it has a certain logic, and is certainly the kind of thing Todd would consider. He's honourable, and knows a good thing when he sees it, so killing off the crew of the Daedalus always seemed shortsighted. After all, why would you make off with an untested treatment and kill off its creator before you've tested the thing out? Besides, he sees the humans of Earth as something else entirely.

Yes, we were at the mercy of the official writers, but now there's to be no more SGA we can develop this story as far as we want to.

[Isolde]

I'm not sure that transport had beaming tech on it - but even if it did, I think Todd was too pissed to think about saving the crew.

I think this tells us quite a bit about Todd's relationship with the Lanteans...

1. No matter how low they may be on provisions, Todd wasn't going to risk any future relations with the Stargate folks by feeding on the crew. Yes, the people would have died either way, but one (feeding) would have been a willful, defiant act, while the other (dying in the crash) could be seen as an unavoidable complication.

2. Todd is Wraith - he's not going to go out of his way to save humans in a crisis - his first priority is saving his own (especially those submissive to his lead).

3. One of the things I love about the Wraith is that they can work themselves up into one heck of a miserable mood. In The Lost Tribe Todd did just that - he was mad, he was disagreeable, he was - as Rodney would say - 'cranky'. Nothing is more entertaining than a cranky Wraith! Todd was allowing his emotions (in this case, his very Wraithy anger) to control him - it's much like their need to feed, almost instinctive - and because he believed that the Lanteans were responsible for turning on the Attero Device which lead to the deaths of untold Wraith, he was probably just pissed off enough to let those humans aboard the Daedalus die as 'paybacks' (paybacks in HIS mind...but to Sheppard he would explain it away as an unfortunate outcome to an unavoidable situation...sweet talker that he is. )

At least, that's how I see it. I was just under the impression that Todd's actions were meant to show that he can be quite spiteful, while justifying his actions as a necessary evil.

das

You're prolly right, das, but it would certainly serve his purpose to have lifted them off the Daedalus, too. Then he could have paraded them as a goodwill gesture to Shep and Earth. Yeah, he was pissy, but he was also starting to think rather than react to the circumstances.

What I do think is interesting is the obvious distrust between both parties. You would think that, being Wraith, it doesn't matter whether humans are to be trusted or not, but he seems almost disappointed? I'm wondering if, in Todd's past, he hasn't attempted some sort of alliance with humans before? There was also the whole questionable thing he said in Spoils of War, in the cloning facility, about destroying Wraith, wiping them out? Hmmm...? There's a plan in that there writing we ain't ever gonna get to the bottom off. :sigh*

[dasNdanger]

You're prolly right, das, but it would certainly serve his purpose to have lifted them off the Daedalus, too. Then he could have paraded them as a goodwill gesture to Shep and Earth.

Yes, but saving the humans would have taken all the suspense out of the episode - it was necessary for Todd to leave them on board so that Shep was forced to be heroic. But, and more importantly, by leaving them on board it created strained relations between Sheppard and Todd, and that feeling of mistrust was an important element in Infection and EatG. If Todd had saved the humans, then there would have been no tension at all between him and Sheppard in Infection, and that tension is what makes their relationship so beautiful. I think the writers knew exactly what they were doing - they were putting a big fat ? between Todd and Shep, and their relationship.

Yeah, he was pissy, but he was also starting to think rather than react to the circumstances.

True, but I don't mind what the writers did, and I think it's very much in line with Todd's personality, especially considering his reaction to Sheppard in Infection (when he raised his hand to feed). It served as a reminder to everyone (characters and audience) that Todd is still very much a Wraith, despite his smooth and charming ways. He's tricksy, he's out for himself, he still can - and will - respond instinctively, and he doesn't keep his head under pressure. Think of Steve - how controlled he was, how self-disciplined he was - and all it took for him to lose control and throw a hissy fit was for Sheppard to tease him about food. This 'losing their heads under pressure' seems to be a very Wraithy trait. They want - need - to be in control, and when they lose that control they lash out - they become the cornered animal. Todd has proven himself the most self-controlled Wraith thus far (considering the temptations put before him), but he's still Wraith, and just like your beloved pet dog or cat, sooner or later he's gonna bite.

What I do think is interesting is the obvious distrust between both parties. You would think that, being Wraith, it doesn't matter whether humans are to be trusted or not, but he seems almost disappointed? I'm wondering if, in Todd's past, he hasn't attempted some sort of alliance with humans before? There was also the whole questionable thing he said in Spoils of War, in the cloning facility, about destroying Wraith, wiping them out? Hmmm...? There's a plan in that there writing we ain't ever gonna get to the bottom off. :sigh*

Ah, Todd didn't want to wipe out all Wraith (he's fiercely fighting FOR them), but he wanted to defeat any Wraith who opposed him. Todd has been making a power grab since he was set free - he sees something bigger for his kind, something that he learned from his time with Sheppard. He's seen that Wraith are not the most powerful - that they're fractured and self-absorbed and short-sighted. He sees that there is a human threat greater than that of the Ancients. He sees the threat, and knows that Wraith will be wiped out unless he can glean whatever technology and know-how from the humans that he can, and then use the knowledge to bring Wraith together and rule them differently (I assume by uniting them, and killing off any resisters). A united Wraith front is the only way to get rid of the human threat, and subdue the Pegasus once again to a controllable level.

At least, that's how I see it.

I also agree that Todd seems disappointed by (what he perceives to be) Sheppard's betrayal. Yes - I think he is disappointed - disappointed because he thinks Sheppard is a true man of his word, and he doesn't expect such Wraith-like treachery from him. Not sure if he's disappointed in Sheppard, or in himself for not seeing a betrayal coming. Of course, Sheppard didn't betray Todd, it was all a big misunderstanding, but I think it's like when you accidently step on your cat. YOU know it was an accident, but the cat? The cat will never really trust your foot ever again. I think Todd realizes now that it was all a big misunderstanding, but I also believe that he won't be quite as trusting of Sheppard (specifically) in the future. I think that's why he's so cautious in EatG - he's not quite sure how to read Sheppard right now, and knows that he'd better sit up straight, and stop playing with his food.



das

[Freawaru]

Hi das,

Yes, but saving the humans would have taken all the suspense out of the episode - it was necessary for Todd to leave them on board so that Shep was forced to be heroic. But, and more importantly, by leaving them on board it created strained relations between Sheppard and Todd, and that feeling of mistrust was an important element in Infection and EatG. If Todd had saved the humans, then there would have been no tension at all between him and Sheppard in Infection, and that tension is what makes their relationship so beautiful. I think the writers knew exactly what they were doing - they were putting a big fat ? between Todd and Shep, and their relationship.

I agree, plot-wise this was necessary - and it re-created the tension between Sheppard and Todd. But speaking character-wise I think it would have been so-Todd to have a plan how to rescue the crew. It seemed to me that he already decided he would crash the Daedalus if it turned out impossible to repair the weapons when he talked with Keller. He seemed to have come to the conclusion that they were not responsible of reactivation of the Attero device by then - probably not the least because there was no indication of it in the Daedalus systems.

True, but I don't mind what the writers did, and I think it's very much in line with Todd's personality, especially considering his reaction to Sheppard in Infection (when he raised his hand to feed). It served as a reminder to everyone (characters and audience) that Todd is still very much a Wraith, despite his smooth and charming ways.

Oh, no doubt about that!

He's tricksy, he's out for himself, he still can - and will - respond instinctively, and he doesn't keep his head under pressure. Think of Steve - how controlled he was, how self-disciplined he was - and all it took for him to lose control and throw a hissy fit was for Sheppard to tease him about food. This 'losing their heads under pressure' seems to be a very Wraithy trait.

Probably got this from their human genes

Seriously, I though Todd looked rather stressed the whole time. Much less relaxed than in Common Ground or even when he was at Atlantis to fight the replicators. He is now the head of a Wraith alliance - and he is no Queen. And then he has to think that the Lanteans tricked him just when he went out of his way to keep a deal: no wonder he got real angry.

Ah, Todd didn't want to wipe out all Wraith (he's fiercely fighting FOR them), but he wanted to defeat any Wraith who opposed him.

Yes, and I still wonder why. Why does he NOT submit to the leading of a Queen as seems to be natural for Wraith. There seems to be A LOT the writers have not told us, yet (still hoping for that movie....)

Todd has been making a power grab since he was set free - he sees something bigger for his kind, something that he learned from his time with Sheppard.

Maybe, maybe not. As far as I recall that Wraith prophesy was never explained, either (The Hive, season 2).

He's seen that Wraith are not the most powerful - that they're fractured and self-absorbed and short-sighted. He sees that there is a human threat greater than that of the Ancients. He sees the threat, and knows that Wraith will be wiped out unless he can glean whatever technology and know-how from the humans that he can, and then use the knowledge to bring Wraith together and rule them differently (I assume by uniting them, and killing off any resisters). A united Wraith front is the only way to get rid of the human threat, and subdue the Pegasus once again to a controllable level.

Possible. Then again considering the information he might have stolen he probably knows by now that humans of Earth are not THAT advanced or a threat. Not to mention that there are still lot's of other enemies of Earth in our Galaxy and don't forget the Ori. If you ask me in case he had access to this kind of information while at Atlantis or Earth or on Daedalus I think it more likely that his natural instinct to protect such a precious culling ground was arising.

I think Todd realizes now that it was all a big misunderstanding, but I also believe that he won't be quite as trusting of Sheppard (specifically) in the future. I think that's why he's so cautious in EatG - he's not quite sure how to read Sheppard right now, and knows that he'd better sit up straight, and stop playing with his food.

LOL.

Frankly, I am not sure Sheppard is able to read himself right now - or ever when it comes to Todd. I mean, when asked he usually is all for betraying or killing Todd but when it comes to action he suddenly turns around. He also seems to like it that others take the responsibility, first Sam and then Woolsey. It is as if he REALLY does not want to kill Todd but somehow cannot face this fact.

[Freawaru]

Hi Isolde,

You're prolly right, das, but it would certainly serve his purpose to have lifted them off the Daedalus, too. Then he could have paraded them as a goodwill gesture to Shep and Earth. Yeah, he was pissy, but he was also starting to think rather than react to the circumstances.

Yes. Something like "look I destroyed your ship - as you did mine - but I saved your people, trust me".

BTW, I wonder does Todd know how much Sheppard really trusted him already? If I recall in Common Ground Weir wasn't ready to negotiate with Kolya at all, but Sheppard gave the information Todd wanted on trust.

What I do think is interesting is the obvious distrust between both parties. You would think that, being Wraith, it doesn't matter whether humans are to be trusted or not, but he seems almost disappointed? I'm wondering if, in Todd's past, he hasn't attempted some sort of alliance with humans before?

Funny that you mention this. My impression, too. As if he thought "they betrayed me, AGAIN".

There was also the whole questionable thing he said in Spoils of War, in the cloning facility, about destroying Wraith, wiping them out? Hmmm...?

Yes, he certainly gave the impression of considering the Ancients the agressors that started the war.

Coming to think of: how much do we really know about that war and of the first contact between Wraith and Ancients? Was there nothing in the Atlantis computer?

[Freawaru]

Hi thekillman

todd has an entire alphabet of plans.

That is why he is such an interesting character.

as to feeding on the crew... he needed hostages. randomly feeding on people for the sake of food doesn't make you a reliable person.

No. But he was able to get his troops away - why not the humans? I think he probably used the Collector to transport his own troops - why not the humans, too? It was such a waste to just let them die both in the sense of getting the Lanteans to trust him (for whatever reason he seems to have this goal) as well as just the pure Wraith hunger in bad times.

[mercy moon]

right from the start todd told sheppard he would return the daedalus .. it was only ronan/keller's interference that changed all that. if they'd left alone todd would've been able to destroy the attero device by simple firing on it from space, so the crew would have been safe in the hangar where he was holding them. when crashing the ship became the only option, i like to think todd would have rescued the crew by scooping them up with his dart's beaming device ... but who knows 'cos the traveller's ship/sheppard entered the equation and everything changed again - that's why todd is such a brilliant character - he's unpredictable! (i think todd and shepp recognise each other as kindred spirts and deep down are friends!)

[FromOutside]

I always thought Todd wanted Daedalus crew to die because of what he assumed they had done. His anger made the decision and he let it because he was able to find some sense behind the decision. Maybe he wanted to remind Sheppard why they want to be on each other's good side, maybe he wanted to show his fellow Wraith that he was a strong leader and wraith leaders don't walk around showing mercy. Maybe he didn't want the humans on his ship because he knows how they muck they can destroy if even the smallest thing goes wrong.

So no plan B to save the humans, but an plans B, C, D and so on for 'what to say Sheppard when he finds out his men died and how to gain something from the whole mess'.

Then the waste of life... I think Todd is strictly against it, not because of some moral viewpoint but because of he understand that every life taken in vain is one innocent, tasty life less to be eaten. But he is a man who can see a big picture and he understand how small the actual chance in his food pool is if he lets some people die and making that happen isn't waste when he can gain something from it. From his point of view the lives lost are not important as unique and valuable because of this he can throw human lives away as mercilessly as we throw pieces of meat away: something supposed to be food died for it but because it fell on floor we don't want to eat it and discard it. Food is wasted but wth, we can get more tomorrow!

2. Todd is Wraith - he's not going to go out of his way to save humans in a crisis - his first priority is saving his own (especially those submissive to his lead).

3. One of the things I love about the Wraith is that they can work themselves up into one heck of a miserable mood. In The Lost Tribe Todd did just that - he was mad, he was disagreeable, he was - as Rodney would say - 'cranky'. Nothing is more entertaining than a cranky Wraith! Todd was allowing his emotions (in this case, his very Wraithy anger) to control him - it's much like their need to feed, almost instinctive - and because he believed that the Lanteans were responsible for turning on the Attero Device which lead to the deaths of untold Wraith, he was probably just pissed off enough to let those humans aboard the Daedalus die as 'paybacks' (paybacks in HIS mind...but to Sheppard he would explain it away as an unfortunate outcome to an unavoidable situation...sweet talker that he is. )

At least, that's how I see it. I was just under the impression that Todd's actions were meant to show that he can be quite spiteful, while justifying his actions as a necessary evil.

das

I think that there is a missing word in point 2 and that word starts with A and has 3 letters

I couldn't agree more with 3 so I decided to quote it too <3

[asdf1239]

surely it would have been more practical to fly the daedalus away, steal the technology, and feed on the crew, since sheppard was going to destroy the device anyway.