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Daro
May 16th, 2010, 01:21 AM
While I acknowledge that this episode was, obviously, full of hallucinations that drove certain characters to extremes, it's also fairly obvious that there was more than a little truth to be found in the situations. The one I'm fascinated with is Greer. For me, he's the most controversial character, as he seems to make progress in one episode, only to blow it in the next.

It's obvious that Greer has reasons not to trust Rush or Wray. I disagree that it's because of the rebellion; that was the concrete proof, sure, but Greer truly did hate both of them from day one. I don't think he'd intentionally violate orders, not yet at least, to take steps to get rid of them. But he has openly approved of 'getting rid of' Rush before, and in this episode it showed that he was ready to kill two essentially defenseless people, one of whom was begging for her life. I'm not sure Greer in his right mind would do this. But, I'd love to hear some debate about this.

How far would he go? Would he, presented a perfect opportunity to murder both Wray and Rush and get away with it, go ahead and do it? To protect his leader and his crew, surely, but also for personal reasons?

pipi
May 16th, 2010, 01:48 AM
He likes to be told what to do, so he'll ask his superiors for directions. That way he won't have to make any emotional decisions.

icsteffi
May 16th, 2010, 05:25 AM
I think Greer felt pretty guilty there at the end. When Wray walked by him, you could see it in his eyes. I don't think he would ever go that far under normal circumstances.

xxxevilgrinxxx
May 16th, 2010, 07:45 AM
While I acknowledge that this episode was, obviously, full of hallucinations that drove certain characters to extremes, it's also fairly obvious that there was more than a little truth to be found in the situations. The one I'm fascinated with is Greer. For me, he's the most controversial character, as he seems to make progress in one episode, only to blow it in the next.

It's obvious that Greer has reasons not to trust Rush or Wray. I disagree that it's because of the rebellion; that was the concrete proof, sure, but Greer truly did hate both of them from day one. I don't think he'd intentionally violate orders, not yet at least, to take steps to get rid of them. But he has openly approved of 'getting rid of' Rush before, and in this episode it showed that he was ready to kill two essentially defenseless people, one of whom was begging for her life. I'm not sure Greer in his right mind would do this. But, I'd love to hear some debate about this.

How far would he go? Would he, presented a perfect opportunity to murder both Wray and Rush and get away with it, go ahead and do it? To protect his leader and his crew, surely, but also for personal reasons?

It's a shame that hate seems to be a word that gets chucked around so easily. Hate's such a strong word, don't you think? Distrust, most definitely, but if he truly hated those people, wouldn't he have just shot them? And there's more than enough dislike to go around. Wray sure doesn't like Greer either and if she had her way, Greer would, at the very least, be locked in a cell for the entirety of their journey.

As for the experience in Pain, it was really scary, no doubt, for all involved, but imagine having THIS displayed as the one fear that could undo you? And it was displayed, because Wray was really Wray, not a hallucination. It was even put on display for Rush, although I'm not sure Rush was in his right mind to see it.

Even before Greer acted on his hallucination, he contacted Young for permission. Of course, the hallucination played havok with him, but it does show that he has a certain amount of self-control. There was a moment with Wray's bloody hand when he seemed to clear his head for a second, and then his father showed up. I believe he felt genuine remorse for having hurt her and, upon rewatching the end of the episode when they pass each other in the hall, there's a second where he stops, as though he wants to say something and there;s just a bare sigh. I think he regrets it, even though he really wasn't in control when it happened. These aren't the actions of someone filled with hate.

JustAnotherVoice
May 16th, 2010, 09:08 AM
Even before Greer acted on his hallucination, he contacted Young for permission. Of course, the hallucination played havok with him, but it does show that he has a certain amount of self-control. There was a moment with Wray's bloody hand when he seemed to clear his head for a second, and then his father showed up. I believe he felt genuine remorse for having hurt her and, upon rewatching the end of the episode when they pass each other in the hall, there's a second where he stops, as though he wants to say something and there;s just a bare sigh. I think he regrets it, even though he really wasn't in control when it happened. These aren't the actions of someone filled with hate.

I think there's an element of his professional pride being hurt too, in that last sequence. He takes his job of protecting the crew, "his" crew, very seriously, and it must have been hard to think that he was the one putting lives at risk, let alone apologise for acting under any suspicions while not fully in control.

As for Wray, while I'm not surprised she wouldn't want to speak with Greer (even to listen to an apology), I really got the vibe that she thought the whole mutiny would just blow over for the military folk, until she was being stitched up, "what is normal anymore?"

xxxevilgrinxxx
May 16th, 2010, 09:14 AM
I think there's an element of his professional pride being hurt too, in that last sequence. He takes his job of protecting the crew, "his" crew, very seriously, and it must have been hard to think that he was the one putting lives at risk, let alone apologise for acting under any suspicions while not fully in control.

As for Wray, while I'm not surprised she wouldn't want to speak with Greer (even to listen to an apology), I really got the vibe that she thought the whole mutiny would just blow over for the military folk, until she was being stitched up, "what is normal anymore?"

Yeah, that gets at the deeper reason for his fear, failing. Failing to do his duty and failing to stop the mutiny, failing even at the end to not be able to stop a hallucination, because despite all the reasons (hallucination induced as they were) he could not even then 'finish' - for which he's likely glad, but still, to have that brought out so that everyone, and especially someone he already doesn't trust/like, gets a good look inside his head?

I'm really hoping that, like her scene with Eli, that Wray will be able at some point to be able to talk to Greer. She's got her own baggage about Greer to get over as well and maybe this will be the experience they need? A girl can hope.

JustAnotherVoice
May 16th, 2010, 09:20 AM
I'm really hoping that, like her scene with Eli, that Wray will be able at some point to be able to talk to Greer. She's got her own baggage about Greer to get over as well and maybe this will be the experience they need? A girl can hope.

I'm hoping for the exact opposite. I'm hoping that they turn their dispute into something personal; she may not have liked him before, due to his military record, but a bullet in the shoulder turns her into a vindictive old sow out to ruin him :p

xxxevilgrinxxx
May 16th, 2010, 09:22 AM
I'm hoping for the exact opposite. I'm hoping that they turn their dispute into something personal; she may not have liked him before, due to his military record, but a bullet in the shoulder turns her into a vindictive old sow out to ruin him :p

It's not a bullet in her shoulder but a stab wound from Rush and a screwdriver...and Wray? Vindictive? *whistles innocently* Oh yeah, that she is...I just keep hoping that she gets over it

JustAnotherVoice
May 16th, 2010, 09:25 AM
It's not a bullet in her shoulder but a stab wound from Rush and a screwdriver...and Wray? Vindictive? *whistles innocently* Oh yeah, that she is...I just keep hoping that she gets over it

It was Rush...with a screwdriver in the cargo bay? I'll have to rewatch that. But having a vindictive Wray out for Rush would be just as interesting, especially after Sabotage. :D

xxxevilgrinxxx
May 16th, 2010, 09:40 AM
it was rush...with a screwdriver in the cargo bay? I'll have to rewatch that. But having a vindictive wray out for rush would be just as interesting, especially after sabotage. :d

lol!

Cory Holmes
May 16th, 2010, 09:41 AM
It's more than just preventing another mutiny; Greer was attempting to save Colonel Young from another coup. It's been shown time and time again that Greer is extremely devoted to Young and regards him far, far higher than anyone else on the ship. He was forced to sit on the side and watch as Wray (and Rush, too) rip apart Young's command, incite disobediance, and culminating in a coup against Young's leadership.

I think Greer's overriding concern was removing a potential threat to Colonel Young.

xxxevilgrinxxx
May 16th, 2010, 09:42 AM
It's more than just preventing another mutiny; Greer was attempting to save Colonel Young from another coup. It's been shown time and time again that Greer is extremely devoted to Young and regards him far, far higher than anyone else on the ship. He was forced to sit on the side and watch as Wray (and Rush, too) rip apart Young's command, incite disobediance, and culminating in a coup against Young's leadership.

I think Greer's overriding concern was removing a potential threat to Colonel Young.good point, and yes, I agree that's a big part of it, that loyalty to Young.

AndSoItBegins
May 16th, 2010, 02:06 PM
Yeah, that gets at the deeper reason for his fear, failing. Failing to do his duty and failing to stop the mutiny, failing even at the end to not be able to stop a hallucination, because despite all the reasons (hallucination induced as they were) he could not even then 'finish' - for which he's likely glad, but still, to have that brought out so that everyone, and especially someone he already doesn't trust/like, gets a good look inside his head?

I'm really hoping that, like her scene with Eli, that Wray will be able at some point to be able to talk to Greer. She's got her own baggage about Greer to get over as well and maybe this will be the experience they need? A girl can hope.

I think its definitely going in that direction. Their hostility will have to come to a head at some point. And yes I too immediately took Greer's facial expression (as Wray walked past him) to be a mixture of guilt and shame. At least Lt James didn't actually clunk the real Scott over the head. Greer though actually threatened the real Wray and even if he doesn't care for her it must be troubling for him that he came so close to killing an innocent person.

Replicator Todd
May 16th, 2010, 03:16 PM
Greer is crazy.....BUT awesome. Greer is loyal to Young and I don't think he would disobey orders unless it was absolutely necessary. Then again there is much we don't know about him and Telford.

hiro
May 16th, 2010, 03:51 PM
I think (like other people said) that Greer is a soldier who feels guilty by letting the civilians take the ship, so the bug may exploited that !


it was rush...with a screwdriver in the cargo bay? I'll have to rewatch that. But having a vindictive wray out for rush would be just as interesting, especially after sabotage. :d

but she didn't know ... did she ?;)

pipi
May 16th, 2010, 04:08 PM
It's not a bullet in her shoulder but a stab wound from Rush and a screwdriver...and Wray? Vindictive? *whistles innocently* Oh yeah, that she is...I just keep hoping that she gets over it

Would have been more interesting if he poked her eye. One eyed pirate ;)

Pharaoh Atem
May 16th, 2010, 04:10 PM
I think Greer felt pretty guilty there at the end. When Wray walked by him, you could see it in his eyes. I don't think he would ever go that far under normal circumstances.

and hopefully the ioa girl will understand that it was the tick. and how far greer will go to protect the ship in case she tries to take over again.

Brinzy
May 16th, 2010, 08:20 PM
I think Greer is by far one of the most compelling characters in the show so far. I don't think he actually heard Wray pleading for her life when he had her trapped. We hear him answer a radio call that we don't hear. This leads me to believe that he heard Wray threatening him or something to that extent, not pleading for her life. And when he does notice the bloody hand, He does seem to be shaken out of it. Also, I don't think he'd do something that Young wouldn't approve of. We've seen time and again that Greer thinks the world of Young, and always wants his approval, and wants Young to know he has his. Unless Young told him so, or Greer felt he was dropping subtle hints I don't believe he'd take any unwarranted action against Wray or Rush.

Lastly, it did look like he regretted what happened at the end when he and Wray crossed paths. Could prove interesting to see how their relationship plays out on future episodes.

-Bryan
sff-hub.blogspot.com

yanna
May 17th, 2010, 01:52 AM
and hopefully the ioa girl will understand that it was the tick. and how far greer will go to protect the ship in case she tries to take over again.

Greer is not protecting the ship. He's protecting Young and the military dictatorship on the ship. If there is any follow through he certainly didn't do the Civilian/Military relations any good by showing his true nature.

Phenom
May 17th, 2010, 01:57 AM
Everybody is capable of some quite extreme acts. Confronted with similar stimulii and add a bit of magic tick juice, even someone as placid as Eli would be capable of anything.

Storywise it is logical for Greer to be the character chosen to have paranoid/aggressive hallucinations given he is a fairly stern sort of bloke anyway. But don't think for a moment that Scott wouldn't be the same, or any of the scientists if they were backed into such a corner. Everyone has the same primal instincts.

yanna
May 17th, 2010, 02:38 AM
But don't think for a moment that Scott wouldn't be the same

if there is any internal consistency then, no, Scott should not be the same. He was not violent to civilians during the mutiny, he has questioned Young's orders before to try and save Chloe and he has not denied Rush water and beaten him up nor has he ever acted towards Wray in a threatening manner.

And Scott did get the magical tick juice and all he saw were puppies, rainbows and his son. Greer and James were the only ones to become violent on the juice. The others were either scared out of their minds or delusional.

Phenom
May 17th, 2010, 03:03 AM
if there is any internal consistency then, no, Scott should not be the same. He was not violent to civilians during the mutiny, he has questioned Young's orders before to try and save Chloe and he has not denied Rush water and beaten him up nor has he ever acted towards Wray in a threatening manner.

And Scott did get the magical tick juice and all he saw were puppies, rainbows and his son. Greer and James were the only ones to become violent on the juice. The others were either scared out of their minds or delusional.

My point was that Scott, and anyone, would be just as capable of the violence displayed by Greer, given the right circumstances.


It is also very hard to compare the tick juice's hallucinations on different people due to the writers perogative to advance the story line. It was nice having different hallucinations, with not everyone being violent.

Blackhole
May 17th, 2010, 05:18 AM
While I acknowledge that this episode was, obviously, full of hallucinations that drove certain characters to extremes, it's also fairly obvious that there was more than a little truth to be found in the situations. The one I'm fascinated with is Greer. For me, he's the most controversial character, as he seems to make progress in one episode, only to blow it in the next.

It's obvious that Greer has reasons not to trust Rush or Wray. I disagree that it's because of the rebellion; that was the concrete proof, sure, but Greer truly did hate both of them from day one. I don't think he'd intentionally violate orders, not yet at least, to take steps to get rid of them. But he has openly approved of 'getting rid of' Rush before, and in this episode it showed that he was ready to kill two essentially defenseless people, one of whom was begging for her life. I'm not sure Greer in his right mind would do this. But, I'd love to hear some debate about this.

How far would he go? Would he, presented a perfect opportunity to murder both Wray and Rush and get away with it, go ahead and do it? To protect his leader and his crew, surely, but also for personal reasons?

I don't think Greer has demonstrated hate at all. And he has very good reason for his feelings. Rush intentionally stranded everyone, planted false information in the ship's computer, likely duped Franklin into turning himself into a vegetable in the chair, framed Young for a murder he didn't commit and incited a ship wide mutiny by commandeering the ship's computer and threatening all the military with dehydration and starvation. Wray took advantage of a situation to wrest command away from Young and was involved in the mutiny with Rush. And Wray has demonstrated she doesn't like Greer from the beginning by removing him for no go reason when she snaked command from Young. It seems from your and others’ past posts that you may view the mutiny as some form of passive resistance, it wasn’t. Rush and Wray may walk around without guns but their attempted mutiny and the extreme coercion they employed to force the military to capitulate were far from the acts of defenseless individuals. In Greer's mind they were caught in the middle of instituting another mutiny. Who knows what computer tricks were about to be used to threaten and force cooperation from the military? Greer was responding to what he perceived as a clear threat in his mind. And we don't know if Wray's pleas were even getting through to him?

Blackhole
May 17th, 2010, 05:43 AM
It's a shame that hate seems to be a word that gets chucked around so easily. Hate's such a strong word, don't you think? Distrust, most definitely, but if he truly hated those people, wouldn't he have just shot them? And there's more than enough dislike to go around. Wray sure doesn't like Greer either and if she had her way, Greer would, at the very least, be locked in a cell for the entirety of their journey.

As for the experience in Pain, it was really scary, no doubt, for all involved, but imagine having THIS displayed as the one fear that could undo you? And it was displayed, because Wray was really Wray, not a hallucination. It was even put on display for Rush, although I'm not sure Rush was in his right mind to see it.

Even before Greer acted on his hallucination, he contacted Young for permission. Of course, the hallucination played havok with him, but it does show that he has a certain amount of self-control. There was a moment with Wray's bloody hand when he seemed to clear his head for a second, and then his father showed up. I believe he felt genuine remorse for having hurt her and, upon rewatching the end of the episode when they pass each other in the hall, there's a second where he stops, as though he wants to say something and there;s just a bare sigh. I think he regrets it, even though he really wasn't in control when it happened. These aren't the actions of someone filled with hate.

I agree

Blackhole
May 17th, 2010, 05:44 AM
I think there's an element of his professional pride being hurt too, in that last sequence. He takes his job of protecting the crew, "his" crew, very seriously, and it must have been hard to think that he was the one putting lives at risk, let alone apologise for acting under any suspicions while not fully in control.

As for Wray, while I'm not surprised she wouldn't want to speak with Greer (even to listen to an apology), I really got the vibe that she thought the whole mutiny would just blow over for the military folk, until she was being stitched up, "what is normal anymore?"

I agree

xxxevilgrinxxx
May 17th, 2010, 05:54 AM
Everybody is capable of some quite extreme acts. Confronted with similar stimulii and add a bit of magic tick juice, even someone as placid as Eli would be capable of anything. .... if they were backed into such a corner. Everyone has the same primal instincts.yep, our old lizard brain kicks in when it's needed and we're all capable of incredible acts of violence. If we weren't, we never would have survived as a species in the first place. Some people are a little more tightly wound than others though; I mean, look at how Rush was affected? But this thing went at their fears, and that doesn't always mean that violence is going to ensue, although it's definitely a factor.

garhkal
May 17th, 2010, 06:37 AM
Slight correction there. from how i saw it, wray was the one pushing for the take over/mutiny, rush was along for the ride.

blackluster
May 17th, 2010, 07:23 AM
I wouldn't say Rush was just along for the ride, since he had an objective which he had to achieve in that power grab, namely to stop Young from attempting to murder him again while simultaneously thwarting the next alien attack (something we now know how strongly he feels about).

As for the Greer's actions, it is unfortunate but I think he has delivered a major blow to ship sentiments. The only silver lining in that respect is that he acted only against certain individuals. Rush I think will get over it, since he was under the influence as well and I don't consider him someone who bears a grudge over such things. Wray on the other had might forgive, but she won't forget and Greer might end up being a major stumbling block in her relations with Young, since she will perceive Young as being overly tolerant of someone she considers a loose cannon, maybe just a hop and a skip from Spencer's mental condition.

Interestingly enough, Riley in one scene idly comments to Eli and Chloe that he thought Greer would be the first to snap, which makes me wonder how even the military truly perceives him, since I can cast my mind back to 'Water' as well where TJ flat out tells Greer to his face that she doesn't trust him. I'm not sure how this will play out yet, but I suppose the fact that the writers have so many intriguing options is encouraging.

Steelbox
May 17th, 2010, 10:10 AM
I don't think Greer has demonstrated hate at all. And he has very good reason for his feelings. Rush intentionally stranded everyone, planted false information in the ship's computer, likely duped Franklin into turning himself into a vegetable in the chair, framed Young for a murder he didn't commit and incited a ship wide mutiny by commandeering the ship's computer and threatening all the military with dehydration and starvation. Wray took advantage of a situation to wrest command away from Young and was involved in the mutiny with Rush. And Wray has demonstrated she doesn't like Greer from the beginning by removing him for no go reason when she snaked command from Young. It seems from your and others’ past posts that you may view the mutiny as some form of passive resistance, it wasn’t. Rush and Wray may walk around without guns but their attempted mutiny and the extreme coercion they employed to force the military to capitulate were far from the acts of defenseless individuals. In Greer's mind they were caught in the middle of instituting another mutiny. Who knows what computer tricks were about to be used to threaten and force cooperation from the military? Greer was responding to what he perceived as a clear threat in his mind. And we don't know if Wray's pleas were even getting through to him?

Completely agrees with you. Green for ya! An gun and a computer are valuable weapons if one knows how the use it. In the end he got a hold of himself long enough for Scott get him.

blackluster
May 17th, 2010, 10:20 AM
lol, got a hold of himself? More like Rush getting hold of a pipe. Rush smacking Scott with the pipe as well was hilarious.

Blackhole
May 17th, 2010, 10:51 AM
Completely agrees with you. Green for ya! An gun and a computer are valuable weapons if one knows how the use it. In the end he got a hold of himself long enough for Scott get him.

I agree that in the end he didn't hurt anyone.

Blackhole
May 17th, 2010, 11:35 AM
While I acknowledge that this episode was, obviously, full of hallucinations that drove certain characters to extremes, it's also fairly obvious that there was more than a little truth to be found in the situations. The one I'm fascinated with is Greer. For me, he's the most controversial character, as he seems to make progress in one episode, only to blow it in the next.

It's obvious that Greer has reasons not to trust Rush or Wray. I disagree that it's because of the rebellion; that was the concrete proof, sure, but Greer truly did hate both of them from day one. I don't think he'd intentionally violate orders, not yet at least, to take steps to get rid of them. But he has openly approved of 'getting rid of' Rush before, and in this episode it showed that he was ready to kill two essentially defenseless people, one of whom was begging for her life. I'm not sure Greer in his right mind would do this. But, I'd love to hear some debate about this.

How far would he go? Would he, presented a perfect opportunity to murder both Wray and Rush and get away with it, go ahead and do it? To protect his leader and his crew, surely, but also for personal reasons?

I agree that of all the characters Greer may harbor more residual resentment of Rush and Wray for the reasons I listed in a prior post and because his role as protector requires him to take potential threats much more seriously.

The characters’ powerful experiences in Pain could take them one of two ways - their fears and resentments could worsen or hopefully instead, with their new heightened awareness they will be cathartic and will be purged.

In James' situation hopefully she will learn that she needs to either make a play for Scott or decide it is time to let go and move on. In Greer's case, he can realize he is still deeply distrustful of Rush and Wray and he needs to let go of some of it. I think Greer is an honorable man; whether in full control or not he nearly killed an injured unarmed innocent woman. The experience will be quite a wake up call and I would be very surprised if in some fashion he doesn’t try to make amends to her.

Imo given the positive and more cohesive direction the show seems to be taking the crew; I am going to vote for the hallucinations in Pain helping those afflicted to grow leading to improved relations for everyone on board. Although I realize having James trying to sabotage Scott and Chloe’s relationship does make for juicy drama. Maybe the writers will show Scott and James getting closer leading to something developing between Chloe and Eli? The major reason I am voting for improved relations is that the show could easily cross a line and become too soapy. Imo I don’t think its fan base would respond well if that happened. Personally, I wouldn’t like it. We will have to wait and see.

I want to add when I first watched the show it’s far more involved character drama was such a departure from the prior two Stargate incarnations that I, along with others felt it was becoming increasingly too soapy. After 17 episodes, either I have gotten use to it or it never has crossed the line. The tension and conflict between the characters has been enjoyable and hasn’t felt over the top.

Lemontree
May 17th, 2010, 12:03 PM
I find it interesting that Greers greatest fear would be the civilians taking over the ship.

For my part, I don't like him at all. For me, he is one of those persons who join military to control and to release their violent urges in a controlled and widely accepted environment. Which, for me as a civilian is the creepiest thought of all - no matter how devoted he might be in general to protect "his" crew when it comes to outside threats.

This said, I just can conclude that this actually IS his greatest fear, as it would rob him of the environment that allows him to exist with all his shortcomings. Shortcomings that would make him an outcast in a civilian environment.

Nataku27
May 17th, 2010, 01:17 PM
Imo , Pain just proved how Greer has the potential to be a ticking bomb for the crew in case of stress.

Cory Holmes
May 17th, 2010, 01:20 PM
Imo , Pain just proved how Greer has the potential to be a ticking bomb for the crew in case of stress.
Not so much a ticking bomb as he is a leashed pitbull, with Young holding the leash. Greer's absolute, unshakable faith in Colonel Young has been demonstrated before and in Pain we got to see what would happen if that leash were ever let go. As long as Young is around and has a firm grasp, then Greer is just fine to be around civilized crewmembers; if not...

xxxevilgrinxxx
May 17th, 2010, 01:31 PM
Not so much a ticking bomb as he is a leashed pitbull, with Young holding the leash. Greer's absolute, unshakable faith in Colonel Young has been demonstrated before and in Pain we got to see what would happen if that leash were ever let go. As long as Young is around and has a firm grasp, then Greer is just fine to be around civilized crewmembers; if not...
well put
Young has his right-hand in Scott but he's definitely got his enforcer in Greer

Blackhole
May 17th, 2010, 01:35 PM
Not so much a ticking bomb as he is a leashed pitbull, with Young holding the leash. Greer's absolute, unshakable faith in Colonel Young has been demonstrated before and in Pain we got to see what would happen if that leash were ever let go. As long as Young is around and has a firm grasp, then Greer is just fine to be around civilized crewmembers; if not...

I disagree. What has Greer done that has ever been that violent? Imo in every instance when Greer has been aggressive the provoking party more than had it coming. Please provide unjustified examples. In Pain he believed that Rush and Wray had incited another mutiny. Frankly if they had done so on the heels of their first one then he should have shot them both. He was hallucinating and wasn’t responsible. Among others, Rush was running around the ship because he thought the Blue Aliens had invaded and Lt. James thought she had killed Lt. Scott. Greer is solider and Imo I think he has performed his job admirably with the necessary force and restraint.

Cory Holmes
May 17th, 2010, 02:00 PM
I disagree. What has Greer done that has ever been that violent? Imo in every instance when Greer has been aggressive the provoking party more than had it coming. Please provide unjustified examples. In Pain he believed that Rush and Wray had incited another mutiny. Frankly if they had done so on the heels of their first one then he should have shot them both. He was hallucinating and wasn’t responsible. Among others, Rush was running around the ship because he thought the Blue Aliens had invaded and Lt. James thought she had killed Lt. Scott. Greer is solider and Imo I think he has performed his job admirably with the necessary force and restraint.
That's my point; he hasn't been overly violent during his time on Destiny. But he did knock Telford flat on his ass on Icarus, he took threatening steps towards Wray when she questioned his status after their arrival on-ship, knocked Spencer flat on his ass (and KTFO'd him) during the shuttle lottery, and his actions during the mutiny are well-documented (but without any slo-mo beauty shots, sadly :D ).

It could be argued that those are examples of performing his duties as needed, and it would be an accurate argument. When Telford stoned in and temporarily took command of the ship, Greer obeyed his order to be confined to quarters; when Wray temporarily took command during her sham trial of Young, he followed her orders; when dealing with the sand bugs, he followed TJs orders despite totally disagreeing with them. These are all admirable traits of a seasoned NCO.

But in Pain, we saw what happened when Young wasn't holding his leash. The hallucinations gave Greer the greenlight to settle the Second Mutiny in his own ways, and look at the level of violence he was prepared to use to that end. During the sham trial, Greer was inciting the rest of the military component into storming the court room and putting Young back in his rightful place and not even Lt. Scott was able to talk him down; it took the Colonel himself to bring Greer to heel and calm him down.

Again, I bring the analogy of a leashed pitbull. He's nice and controlled, and cordial if not friendly to strangers telling him what to do. But if that leash is ever let go... Personally, I'd like to learn what exactly Colonel Young did to earn that unending, unshakeable loyalty from Greer. That alone is worth a few episodes, don't you think?

xxxevilgrinxxx
May 17th, 2010, 02:03 PM
...
Again, I bring the analogy of a leashed pitbull. He's nice and controlled, and cordial if not friendly to strangers telling him what to do. But if that leash is ever let go... Personally, I'd like to learn what exactly Colonel Young did to earn that unending, unshakeable loyalty from Greer. That alone is worth a few episodes, don't you think?yes, I'd love to learn that too...maybe next season?

Blackhole
May 17th, 2010, 02:24 PM
That's my point; he hasn't been overly violent during his time on Destiny. But he did knock Telford flat on his ass on Icarus, he took threatening steps towards Wray when she questioned his status after their arrival on-ship, knocked Spencer flat on his ass (and KTFO'd him) during the shuttle lottery, and his actions during the mutiny are well-documented (but without any slo-mo beauty shots, sadly :D ).

It could be argued that those are examples of performing his duties as needed, and it would be an accurate argument. When Telford stoned in and temporarily took command of the ship, Greer obeyed his order to be confined to quarters; when Wray temporarily took command during her sham trial of Young, he followed her orders; when dealing with the sand bugs, he followed TJs orders despite totally disagreeing with them. These are all admirable traits of a seasoned NCO.

But in Pain, we saw what happened when Young wasn't holding his leash. The hallucinations gave Greer the greenlight to settle the Second Mutiny in his own ways, and look at the level of violence he was prepared to use to that end. During the sham trial, Greer was inciting the rest of the military component into storming the court room and putting Young back in his rightful place and not even Lt. Scott was able to talk him down; it took the Colonel himself to bring Greer to heel and calm him down.

Again, I bring the analogy of a leashed pitbull. He's nice and controlled, and cordial if not friendly to strangers telling him what to do. But if that leash is ever let go... Personally, I'd like to learn what exactly Colonel Young did to earn that unending, unshakeable loyalty from Greer. That alone is worth a few episodes, don't you think?

Excellent argument; I would say I agreed with everything you have said.

I would have to review the episode that contained the trial to see if your statement: “During the sham trial, Greer was inciting the rest of the military component into storming the courtroom and putting Young back in his rightful place and not even Lt. Scott was able to talk him down; it took the Colonel himself to bring Greer to heel and calm him down.” was an exaggeration. I don’t remember his conversation with Scott or that he was inciting anyone just expressing his displeasure with the whole scenario. I do remember that Greer wasn’t happy and I don’t for a moment doubt that had Young ordered him in there to end it he would have done so happily. The point is I can’t remember if he was as fired up as you suggest but he was fired up and any difference was one of degree on his part. Your conclusion to his intent is accurate.

And you are right that the hallucination probably showed that if freed of Young’s restraint he may have killed both of them. Frankly I would have agreed with him but your colorful analogy of the leashed pit bull is probably apt.

Cory Holmes
May 17th, 2010, 02:32 PM
From Gateworld's transcrips:


Later, Chloe is in a room where Vanessa James and several other marines are cleaning the weapons. Scott and T.J. are also there.

ARMSTRONG: She wants to gather all the evidence she can and then put it to a vote.

JAMES: What, like a jury?

ARMSTRONG: No. Everyone.

GREER: I say we handle this right now.

(He has just finished putting a rifle back together again and now he turns to the others angrily.)

GREER: I say we go in there, tell ‘em that the party's over and get back to work. Who's with me?

(All the military crew in the room immediately rise to their feet. Greer heads towards the door but Scott jumps up and stops him.)

SCOTT: All right, take it easy, Greer.

GREER: This is my rule.

SCOTT: Sergeant ...

GREER: Lieutenant, this is what they used to do to guys like me for looking at white women the wrong way. Now, d'you think I'm gonna hang back and let this go ...?

(The doors open and Colonel Young is standing outside. The military jump to attention.)

YOUNG: Am I interrupting something?

JOHANSEN: No, sir.

YOUNG (walking into the room): At ease.

GREER: This has gone on long enough, Colonel. We're ready to back your play.

YOUNG: That won't be necessary.


While this gives a good accounting, you really need to rewatch the scene to see the emotion and barely-controlled fury Greer is projecting.

Blackhole
May 17th, 2010, 02:52 PM
From Gateworld's transcrips:

While this gives a good accounting, you really need to rewatch the scene to see the emotion and barely-controlled fury Greer is projecting.

I didn't know that Gateworld has transcripts - very cool! I had forgotten and you are right.

Daro
May 17th, 2010, 03:42 PM
I don't think Greer has demonstrated hate at all. And he has very good reason for his feelings. Rush intentionally stranded everyone, planted false information in the ship's computer, likely duped Franklin into turning himself into a vegetable in the chair, framed Young for a murder he didn't commit and incited a ship wide mutiny by commandeering the ship's computer and threatening all the military with dehydration and starvation. Wray took advantage of a situation to wrest command away from Young and was involved in the mutiny with Rush. And Wray has demonstrated she doesn't like Greer from the beginning by removing him for no go reason when she snaked command from Young. It seems from your and others’ past posts that you may view the mutiny as some form of passive resistance, it wasn’t. Rush and Wray may walk around without guns but their attempted mutiny and the extreme coercion they employed to force the military to capitulate were far from the acts of defenseless individuals. In Greer's mind they were caught in the middle of instituting another mutiny. Who knows what computer tricks were about to be used to threaten and force cooperation from the military? Greer was responding to what he perceived as a clear threat in his mind. And we don't know if Wray's pleas were even getting through to him?

I agree that, from his perspective, Greer has every reason in the world to dislike Wray (not hate her though; taking him off active duty is not the same as locking him up or taking his gun away.) He has every reason to dislike Rush especially.
The attempted coup has been debated ad nauseum; my belief is that the civilians were justified, and so was Rush. Beside the point though, so I'd rather not rehash my reasons for thinking this. I will say that I don't think their coup was exactly a peaceful defiance. Obviously there was a war of resources, with both sides threatening the other, and I can't condone that. The people behind the coup, though, took extreme measures to prevent loss of life on the other side, and Young did the same, so in the end it all worked out. But Greer knows that what happened is not yet resolved, and he's paranoid because of it.
His commanding officer has repeatedly told him that he must try to cooperate. This may be difficult, but for Greer, whose core value is supposedly obeying his commander, it should be at the top of his list.
My point is that Greer's distrust of Wray and hatred, and it is hatred imho, of Rush is interfering with his moral compass, and his duties. So far, discounting the very odd circumstances of "Pain," this hasn't caused much damage. I see the potential for it to in the future. Greer must accept responsibility that his commander upholds: everyone on the ship is to be protected, even difficult and dislikeable ones. Greer was far too ready to kill Wray and Rush. I understand why, and I understand he was hallucinating so that he thought he had clearance to do so. But actually taking another human life requires a level of aggression and apathy that I find alarming. Especially in the circumstance where Wray was wounded, pleading for her life, and not an immediate threat.

"I'm done with you," is a very telling statement. The way he said it gave me chills; absolutely he would kill out of revenge, without much remorse or doubt, and that's the thing that troubles me. Neither Rush or Wray would so calously do the same. Wray chased after Greer when he was persuing Rush. Why would she do that, except out of deep concern for Greer's obviously tenuous mental state at the time? She didn't do it to save Rush, as she didn't see him or know he was there.

For Rush's part, he's only shown the ability to directly kill someone if they are not human. He's been a factor in every death so far, to some degree or another, but most of the time he recoils from violence.

Greer scares me because he is a killer, pure and simple, and I have little doubt anymore that he would get rid of anyone without any hesitation if he thought it was for Young's good. His ability to dehumanize those he dislikes is the part I cannot accept. Wray has done nothing to him to warrant her execution. We don't know if he heard her pleas for mercy, but I think he did, considering how he lowered his weapon at first and then, when the ghost of his father urged him, raised it again to fire.

Daro
May 17th, 2010, 04:00 PM
I disagree. What has Greer done that has ever been that violent? Imo in every instance when Greer has been aggressive the provoking party more than had it coming. Please provide unjustified examples. In Pain he believed that Rush and Wray had incited another mutiny. Frankly if they had done so on the heels of their first one then he should have shot them both. He was hallucinating and wasn’t responsible. Among others, Rush was running around the ship because he thought the Blue Aliens had invaded and Lt. James thought she had killed Lt. Scott. Greer is solider and Imo I think he has performed his job admirably with the necessary force and restraint.

I'm sorry, you're wrong.

Greer has been violent beyond acceptable standards in several situations. For example, in the desert in "Air," he kicked the hell out of Rush. All his hatred of the man aside, that is not the action of a responsible military officer; it's the action of a loose cannon. Rush didn't do anything to him at that time to warrant such a reaction, he was just being a jackass. Later, Greer refused to share water, even though Rush had given his to Scott (which, btw, allowed Scott to survive and find the lime; if Rush had not done that, they all would be dead.) The scuffle that broke out was instigated by Rush, I know. When they get back to the gate, though, Rush makes a snarky comment. In response, Greer gives a gun to an untrained computer geek, with the obvious threat that Eli should shoot Rush if Rush got out of hand.

Riley had to block Greer from his advance on Wray after she challenged his right to be running around with a gun; he moved toward her with clear aggression. That is not the action of a disciplined military officer.

Greer also has a nasty habit of pointing a gun in the face of whoever he is pissed off at on any particular day. Rush in "Space," for example. It's not that Greer brought his gun up, it's that he kept it there even after he realized that Rush was no threat. Greer also tried to lead what can only fairly be described as a mutiny himself during "Justice." He intended to lead the military personnel, against his commander's orders and also Scott's, to crack down on the civilians for holding a trial that Young himself authorized. No matter that he intended to give command back to Young when it was done, but Greer's plan there was to, briefly, take control of the ship, was it not?

Greer is aggressive, and often it's justifiable. And it's almost always understandable. But he does not behave like Scott, who is the model for how an officer should act. I agree totally that Greer can easily be compared to a leashed pit bull; in fact, I'm sure I've heard Louis Ferreira refer to him as such in an interview, though I will have to do some searching to find that. Not that I would take out-of-story actor interviews as cannon, but I know that they do influence you some. :)

DarkAsgard
May 17th, 2010, 05:34 PM
Greer's mind is so fractured and tortured by the life he live, redemption may be close to impossible for him. I go agree with the original poster on this thread that Greer comes off as a great character in one episode and a complete douche in another. He got some serious fence mending, becuase it seems like he may end up fighting alone.

Blackhole
May 17th, 2010, 06:05 PM
I agree that, from his perspective, Greer has every reason in the world to dislike Wray (not hate her though; taking him off active duty is not the same as locking him up or taking his gun away.) He has every reason to dislike Rush especially.
The attempted coup has been debated ad nauseum; my belief is that the civilians were justified, and so was Rush. Beside the point though, so I'd rather not rehash my reasons for thinking this. I will say that I don't think their coup was exactly a peaceful defiance. Obviously there was a war of resources, with both sides threatening the other, and I can't condone that. The people behind the coup, though, took extreme measures to prevent loss of life on the other side, and Young did the same, so in the end it all worked out. But Greer knows that what happened is not yet resolved, and he's paranoid because of it.
His commanding officer has repeatedly told him that he must try to cooperate. This may be difficult, but for Greer, whose core value is supposedly obeying his commander, it should be at the top of his list.
My point is that Greer's distrust of Wray and hatred, and it is hatred imho, of Rush is interfering with his moral compass, and his duties. So far, discounting the very odd circumstances of "Pain," this hasn't caused much damage. I see the potential for it to in the future. Greer must accept responsibility that his commander upholds: everyone on the ship is to be protected, even difficult and dislikeable ones. Greer was far too ready to kill Wray and Rush. I understand why, and I understand he was hallucinating so that he thought he had clearance to do so. But actually taking another human life requires a level of aggression and apathy that I find alarming. Especially in the circumstance where Wray was wounded, pleading for her life, and not an immediate threat.

"I'm done with you," is a very telling statement. The way he said it gave me chills; absolutely he would kill out of revenge, without much remorse or doubt, and that's the thing that troubles me. Neither Rush or Wray would so calously do the same. Wray chased after Greer when he was persuing Rush. Why would she do that, except out of deep concern for Greer's obviously tenuous mental state at the time? She didn't do it to save Rush, as she didn't see him or know he was there.

For Rush's part, he's only shown the ability to directly kill someone if they are not human. He's been a factor in every death so far, to some degree or another, but most of the time he recoils from violence.

Greer scares me because he is a killer, pure and simple, and I have little doubt anymore that he would get rid of anyone without any hesitation if he thought it was for Young's good. His ability to dehumanize those he dislikes is the part I cannot accept. Wray has done nothing to him to warrant her execution. We don't know if he heard her pleas for mercy, but I think he did, considering how he lowered his weapon at first and then, when the ghost of his father urged him, raised it again to fire.

The beauty of this show is that it is done with enough moral ambiguity and without a clear point of view to make both of our particular viewpoints valid. I can’t fault the logic supporting your viewpoint but neither can I fault the one supporting mine. I think it comes down to what group and likely characters each of us feels is more in the right. It is in a large part a choice depending on what group our sympathies tend towards.

You are right the attempted coup has been debated ad nauseum. You think the civilians were justified, I believe, because in their eyes Young had lost his moral justification to lead when he chose in anger to maroon Rush. I believe Rush’s villainy justified a severe punishment and even though it didn’t warrant marooning it wasn’t far from it. I also want to add that despite everything harsh and painful Rush endured as a result of Young’s action; he learned a necessary lesson which in a large part was instrumental to the regaining of his humanity. I was disappointed in Young; and regarded his action as more of an isolated incident and not reflective of his general command ability. I don’t feel the mutiny was justified and deserved as harsh a response from the military contingent as necessary. You probably feel the converse; Young's moral weakness demanded his replacement and the civilians were right to try. Both our judgments are valid depending on where our sympathies lean.

Rush and Wray as ring leaders deserved a far more severe punishments than they received at Young’s hands. And in Pain if they had had the audacity to try it again and had indeed been behind a second mutiny attempt; their action would imo unequivocally represent a clear and present threat to the Destiny. In the combat situation that Destiny is in, Greer’s decision with Young’s authorization to once and for all remove the continued threat they both represented would be understandable. Mutinous actions in combat situations are not regarded with the same civility as in civilian situations. You probably feel that there is never a circumstance that would warrant or justify such summary actions; again different points of view.

The degree of ‘pit bullishness’ and ‘ease of killing’ that we each attribute to Greer is another example. I regard his aggressive actions as warranted and provoked you see them as a lack of honor. Again I think the distinction is reflective of where our sympathies lie. I regard Rush and Wray’s actions as more villainous and requiring the necessity of Greer taking the law into his own hands. You regard Scott as more of a model officer and from a strictly ideal point of view you are right. I look at him as more likely to follow his military conditioning to always follow orders as a weakness in this particular situation because it can be exploited by unscrupulous individuals like Wray and Rush that know how to game the system to their advantage. Greer is more likely to do what he feels is right and damn the consequences. Imo this attitude is reflective of both his loyalties to Young and his far greater field experience. Again the rightness of his actions imo is more reflective of where our sympathies lie rather than any inherent discernable morality. The show's situations and characters are more than ambiguous enough to support both our viewpoints.

My response here applies to your following post as well. Greer’s treatment of Rush in the desert was restrained and deserved imo for the very same reasons I have already indicated. One doesn’t demand another person’s water while hiking in desert conditions. When Greer refused, Rush tried to take it from him which started their fight. If Greer had relinquished his water he probably wouldn’t have had the strength to go back and rescue Scott. Rush behaving like a jackass and trying to steal Greer's water coming on the heels of their recent stranding more than justified how he was treated. I doubt I would have been as restrained as Greer had I been in his position. Giving Eli a gun was justified; he was their only lifeline to returning back through the gate to Destiny. Given their recent unnecessary marooning, as Greer I wouldn’t have taken a chance that Rush would do something self-serving again; leaving the gun was insurance and prudent.

Greer’s reaction to Wray's sham trial was appropriate in my mind. He recognized that Young’s attempt to accommodate her attempt to wrest power for appearance sake was a mistake, yet he still obeyed his orders. Young’s critical mistake was leaving Rush; it was what prompted this whole loss of faith crisis in his leadership. He should have dragged Rush back and thrown him in irons. The sympathies of the civilians should not have been a consideration. He was in command and should have made it clear that the military would come down hard on anyone who tried to undermine his authority. If he had their situation would never have deteriorated to a point where a mutiny would have been considered or attempted. You probably feel sympathies for Rush in the desert and feel the civilians had been put upon and deserved the right to fight back against what they regarded as Young's morally corrupt and poor leadership by leaving Rush. I certainly can understand this point of view.

Viva la difference! If we both agreed then we would have nothing to debate and that wouldn’t be any fun for any of us.

Tuvok
May 18th, 2010, 03:08 AM
I'm sorry, you're wrong.

Greer has been violent beyond acceptable standards in several situations. For example, in the desert in "Air," he kicked the hell out of Rush. All his hatred of the man aside, that is not the action of a responsible military officer; it's the action of a loose cannon. Rush didn't do anything to him at that time to warrant such a reaction, he was just being a jackass. Later, Greer refused to share water, even though Rush had given his to Scott (which, btw, allowed Scott to survive and find the lime; if Rush had not done that, they all would be dead.) The scuffle that broke out was instigated by Rush, I know. When they get back to the gate, though, Rush makes a snarky comment. In response, Greer gives a gun to an untrained computer geek, with the obvious threat that Eli should shoot Rush if Rush got out of hand.

Riley had to block Greer from his advance on Wray after she challenged his right to be running around with a gun; he moved toward her with clear aggression. That is not the action of a disciplined military officer.

Greer also has a nasty habit of pointing a gun in the face of whoever he is pissed off at on any particular day. Rush in "Space," for example. It's not that Greer brought his gun up, it's that he kept it there even after he realized that Rush was no threat. Greer also tried to lead what can only fairly be described as a mutiny himself during "Justice." He intended to lead the military personnel, against his commander's orders and also Scott's, to crack down on the civilians for holding a trial that Young himself authorized. No matter that he intended to give command back to Young when it was done, but Greer's plan there was to, briefly, take control of the ship, was it not?

Greer is aggressive, and often it's justifiable. And it's almost always understandable. But he does not behave like Scott, who is the model for how an officer should act. I agree totally that Greer can easily be compared to a leashed pit bull; in fact, I'm sure I've heard Louis Ferreira refer to him as such in an interview, though I will have to do some searching to find that. Not that I would take out-of-story actor interviews as cannon, but I know that they do influence you some. :)

Hmmmm, rather strong words there.

Back in Lost we reviewed how his upbrining made him both strong and volitile. How he looks apoun a father figure with both love and loyalty to the point of violence. However , the other thing I disagree more about the attempted coup being justified is the comparing of Greer as a leashed animal. As per James we have seen that these infections have lead to emotional reactions in the extreme. Your statement that his actions in Pain is the be all and end all of what and Greer is , is debatatble at best.

He was sick, as was James who in an infected state bashed Scotts head in.

Blackhole
May 18th, 2010, 04:53 AM
Hmmmm, rather strong words there.

Back in Lost we reviewed how his upbrining made him both strong and volitile. How he looks apoun a father figure with both love and loyalty to the point of violence. However , the other thing I disagree more about the attempted coup being justified is the comparing of Greer as a leashed animal. As per James we have seen that these infections have lead to emotional reactions in the extreme. Your statement that his actions in Pain is the be all and end all of what and Greer is , is debatatble at best.

He was sick, as was James who in an infected stated bashed Scotts head in.

Good points; the degree of their reaction may not have been typical or equivalent to how they would have reacted if what they hallucinated had indeed been real.

Artemis-Neith
May 18th, 2010, 06:06 AM
While I acknowledge that this episode was, obviously, full of hallucinations that drove certain characters to extremes, it's also fairly obvious that there was more than a little truth to be found in the situations. The one I'm fascinated with is Greer. For me, he's the most controversial character, as he seems to make progress in one episode, only to blow it in the next.

It's obvious that Greer has reasons not to trust Rush or Wray. I disagree that it's because of the rebellion; that was the concrete proof, sure, but Greer truly did hate both of them from day one. I don't think he'd intentionally violate orders, not yet at least, to take steps to get rid of them. But he has openly approved of 'getting rid of' Rush before, and in this episode it showed that he was ready to kill two essentially defenseless people, one of whom was begging for her life. I'm not sure Greer in his right mind would do this. But, I'd love to hear some debate about this.

How far would he go? Would he, presented a perfect opportunity to murder both Wray and Rush and get away with it, go ahead and do it? To protect his leader and his crew, surely, but also for personal reasons?

From time to time as it seem for me it's a good idea to look at the beginning of this discussion. Based on the events of this episode the intention to start this thread was to question Greers actions under the influence of the alien bug. Greers hallucinations were about Wray and Rush, who in his mind were starting to intrigue against Young and his crew, again. Though, how much effected his own personal antipathy against both of them his actions? Was there also a kind of hidden wish to get rid of both of them, regardless of the bug?

I think, it is important to discern between the influence of the bug, and what Greer might do without this influence. And with Greer we've seen both, very aggressive (e.g. the fight with Rush in Air III, or his reaction of the accusions against Young in Justice), and truly rearsonable behaviour (e.g. in Water where he stepped back after T.J asked him to do). But, the overall impression of him is, that he tends to be very aggressive (he beat up Telford at some point, that was the reason he was in the brig in Air I), and don't hesitate to show this. Since Lost we know why he is, what he is. Like everyone he has his very own reasons for his behaviour. But, due to this background he is dangerous, and the only halt he has to controle his aggressions is his military training. In a critical situation, in the moment, somebody reminds him of this training he restrains himself. We've seen this several times. The bug makes it impossible to do so, for that he's not responsible for his actions in "Pain".

The question which remains is, would he go this far, without this influence? That's hard to say, I would say it depents on the situation he's in. Let Rush do again something bad against Young, or one of his people, and guve Greer the opportunity to act against it, Rush'll die for sure. If I would be Rush, I also never would try to argue too hard with Greer, he'll beat him up. But, would he kill him in that case, or would he do the same to Wray? I don't think so. Greer knows what's right, and what's wrong. To beat up a woman, or to kill a human, who's not armed, is not the right thing. So, for me it's: Greer would not go this far, he has a conscience.

xxxevilgrinxxx
May 18th, 2010, 07:00 AM
...would he kill him in that case, or would he do the same to Wray? I don't think so. Greer knows what's right, and what's wrong. To beat up a woman, or to kill a human, who's not armed, is not the right thing. So, for me it's: Greer would not go this far, he has a conscience.I agree, and I don't think Greer would do this either. He had far more cause (whether you agree or not on his behaviour, we're talking about what's in his mind, and in his mind, he had far more cause) to act violently during the coup, or even when they first boarded Destiny and Young was out of commission. Greer hasn't harmed either of them, at least not in the way that Greer thinks is harm. Neither are dead, neither are beaten. Even when he's under the influence of a crazy alien tick and has (to his mind) got Young's blessing to use whatever force he deems fit, he still didn't kill or harm either one. Is Greer violent? Sure. Is he Young's stick to Scott's carrot, his enforcer? Sure. But I don't think he's the monster he's being made out to be.

senatorincitatus
May 18th, 2010, 10:11 AM
Greer has been violent beyond acceptable standards in several situations. For example, in the desert in "Air," he kicked the hell out of Rush. All his hatred of the man aside, that is not the action of a responsible military officer; it's the action of a loose cannon. Rush didn't do anything to him at that time to warrant such a reaction, he was just being a jackass. Later, Greer refused to share water, even though Rush had given his to Scott (which, btw, allowed Scott to survive and find the lime; if Rush had not done that, they all would be dead.) The scuffle that broke out was instigated by Rush, I know. When they get back to the gate, though, Rush makes a snarky comment. In response, Greer gives a gun to an untrained computer geek, with the obvious threat that Eli should shoot Rush if Rush got out of hand.

Riley had to block Greer from his advance on Wray after she challenged his right to be running around with a gun; he moved toward her with clear aggression. That is not the action of a disciplined military officer.

Greer also has a nasty habit of pointing a gun in the face of whoever he is pissed off at on any particular day. Rush in "Space," for example. It's not that Greer brought his gun up, it's that he kept it there even after he realized that Rush was no threat. Greer also tried to lead what can only fairly be described as a mutiny himself during "Justice." He intended to lead the military personnel, against his commander's orders and also Scott's, to crack down on the civilians for holding a trial that Young himself authorized. No matter that he intended to give command back to Young when it was done, but Greer's plan there was to, briefly, take control of the ship, was it not?

Greer is aggressive, and often it's justifiable. And it's almost always understandable. But he does not behave like Scott, who is the model for how an officer should act. I agree totally that Greer can easily be compared to a leashed pit bull; in fact, I'm sure I've heard Louis Ferreira refer to him as such in an interview, though I will have to do some searching to find that. Not that I would take out-of-story actor interviews as cannon, but I know that they do influence you some. :)

First, can I just say that I find the pit bull analogy hilarious? Mine, when unrestrained, immediately initiate play or gravitate towards upholstered furniture for naps. I understand the point behind the phrase, but my mental image of 'unleashed pit bull Greer' is going in a completely different direction. :D

I've made the point before, but that was ages ago in a defunct thread and I think it bears repeating here. Greer does go right to the threat-of-violence as one of his first tools. But the only practical reason behind any such threat is to prevent escalation into actual violence. Sure, he's the guy with his finger on the red button, saying "Stop what you're doing or I'll set off the nukes." But that's a far cry from being a guy who's going to set off the nukes first time someone crosses him. Even his actual show of unprovoked violence - kicking Rush in Air III - was not as bad as it could have been. There was nothing admirable about it, don't get me wrong, but Rush is frail by comparison and Greer could have done some serious damage if that had been his goal. It doesn't seem that it was. I got the feeling it was his equivalent of shoving someone who's mouthing off to your buddy, just dialed up to eleven - that the intent was not to hurt Rush so much as to shut him up. Rush himself said, in the same episode, that if Greer really wanted to shoot him, he would have done it already, which I think is absolutely true. If we accept this read on the character as accurate, then he's actually a lot more self-controlled than he first appears.

I also think that, while he's totally prepared to go as far as he needs to, he'll only go that far when he feels he has reason. His ersatz psych eval with TJ in Life was very telling:

GREER: Look, there's a bad guy out there; put a gun in my hand, I'll go kill him. I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it. Your ass needs saving, I'm gonna save it or I'm gonna die trying.

What I find most interesting here is that he's very blase about the killing but adamant about the saving. A lot of his actions do bear this out - he went with Scott to help save Chloe in Space; he was the first one to volunteer to sit in the chair; in Time, he was unable to accept a version of events in which people died on his watch. Even his less admirable moments could be interpreted that way - shutting Wray up would keep her from questioning Young's decision to release him; kicking Rush kept him from questioning Scott's command; arming Eli gave him the only defense he could get against Rush, whom he has clearly never trusted with anyone's best interests but his own; his actions in Justice would have saved Young from Wray's efforts to oust him, and from Young's own determination to let her. I think that, whatever we think he is, Greer considers himself at least as much a protector as he is a killer.

I live near a military base and interact with all branches of the armed forces on a regular basis, and this is not atypical in the least. This is the mentality. When these folks are in combat, doing what they have to do requires setting aside more philosophical considerations. They don't think about whether or not it's socially acceptable to kick a civilian, or advance menacingly on a woman, or to point guns at unarmed people. While they're on the job, which is literally life-and-death, the job is of paramount importance. Once they come home, when they're no longer in danger and surrounded by the enemy, the more civilized aspects of morality can again be considered. But Greer's still deployed. He's still on duty 24-7, with potential enemies inside the ship, outside the ship, and on every planet they visit, and there's no relief in sight. I think that also must be considered - we've never really seen Greer off-duty. He's always 'on', and that has a huge impact, I think, on his behavior.

Blackhole
May 18th, 2010, 10:22 AM
A number of people have commented in this and other threads that Pain’s basic premise is reminiscent of several past Stargate episodes where the lead characters have hallucinated due to some external influence, i.e., drug, head injury, alien power etc. At first glance it seems that they are right and this episode is more “ordinary”. Upon reflection imo I have to disagree with this conclusion. SGU is a far more character driven show than any of its two predecessors. I think the point of this episode was to give a window into the souls of both James and Greer. The episode showed that both in their hallucinations were willing to commit significant violence. In James’ instance she killed Scott for scorning her and Greer was probably just about to shoot Wray. He was raising his gun at her just when he was struck in the back by Rush. Before I raise everyone’s hackles I am not saying they are going to commit violence just that the potential to do so has been shown to exist in each of them. I think that was the point of this episode. Their hallucinations were very powerful experiences; both were shown a glimpse of what they may be capable of.

Their experiences in Pain could take them one of two ways - their fears and resentments could worsen or hopefully instead, with their new heightened awareness of them they will be cathartic and will be purged.

In James' situation hopefully, her violent reaction will be a wake up call and she will recognize that she needs to deal with her feelings before she does something she may later deeply regret. She needs to either make a play for Scott or decide it is time to let go and move on. If the writers wanted they may take her down the dark path and have her try to get rid of Chloe (her rival) or Scott (if he doesn’t want me then no one is going to get him). I don’t think this would go over well with the fans and probably won’t happen; but it is a possibility. A far more benign storyline could show Scott and James getting closer leading to something developing between Chloe and Eli?

In Greer's case, he needs to realize that he is still deeply distrustful of Rush and Wray and he needs to let go of some of it. I think he is an honorable man; whether in full control or not he nearly killed an injured unarmed innocent woman. The experience will be quite a wake up call to him. Personally I think he will be prompted to recognize the need to better control his aggression and I would be very surprised if in some fashion he doesn’t try to make amends to Wray for what happened.

xxxevilgrinxxx
May 18th, 2010, 10:40 AM
...Sure, he's the guy with his finger on the red button, saying "Stop what you're doing or I'll set off the nukes." But that's a far cry from being a guy who's going to set off the nukes first time someone crosses him.

...GREER: Look, there's a bad guy out there; put a gun in my hand, I'll go kill him. I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it. Your ass needs saving, I'm gonna save it or I'm gonna die trying.

What I find most interesting here is that he's very blase about the killing but adamant about the saving. A lot of his actions do bear this out - he went with Scott to help save Chloe in Space; he was the first one to volunteer to sit in the chair; in Time, he was unable to accept a version of events in which people died on his watch. Even his less admirable moments could be interpreted that way - shutting Wray up would keep her from questioning Young's decision to release him; kicking Rush kept him from questioning Scott's command; arming Eli gave him the only defense he could get against Rush, whom he has clearly never trusted with anyone's best interests but his own; his actions in Justice would have saved Young from Wray's efforts to oust him, and from Young's own determination to let her. I think that, whatever we think he is, Greer considers himself at least as much a protector as he is a killer.

I live near a military base and interact with all branches of the armed forces on a regular basis, and this is not atypical in the least. This is the mentality. When these folks are in combat, doing what they have to do requires setting aside more philosophical considerations. They don't think about whether or not it's socially acceptable to kick a civilian, or advance menacingly on a woman, or to point guns at unarmed people. While they're on the job, which is literally life-and-death, the job is of paramount importance. Once they come home, when they're no longer in danger and surrounded by the enemy, the more civilized aspects of morality can again be considered. But Greer's still deployed. He's still on duty 24-7, with potential enemies inside the ship, outside the ship, and on every planet they visit, and there's no relief in sight. I think that also must be considered - we've never really seen Greer off-duty. He's always 'on', and that has a huge impact, I think, on his behavior.

* yes, he's not that guy. He will threaten, but he hasn't killed anyone yet.

*That second point is great, especially as it's out of his own mouth - that's the way he sees it, and it's a great distinction. These same people that Greer would kick their ass, I bet he'd die trying to save them too. He might give them grief over it and not be too gentle about it, but he'd do it. Of that I have no doubt.

*You're right that Greer is always "on". There are brief glimpses, mostly in the Kinosodes, where he's not on and he seems like a far more gentle person, or at least that he's capable of that. Kidding around with Eli about his disrespecting of female officers and talking with Park (I believe) about what was hurting her. I completely get you on the military mentality.


... to give a window into the souls of both James and Greer. The episode showed that both in their hallucinations were willing to commit significant violence.


...I would be very surprised if in some fashion he doesn’t try to make amends to Wray for what happened.

*Not only James and Greer but Rush as well, perhaps especially. James never clocked a real person, and Greer never shot Wray, but Rush did stab Wray, and did go all pipe happy. Of course it's the hallucinations so it doesn't have the same weight and so maybe it's only Rush and James that have been violent. I would be very surprised if Greer didn't try to make amends. He seemed to want to say something to Wray. I hope she'll let him but I don't know if she will. Wray sort of strikes me as one of those people that will blindly walk into danger, completely oblivious to what she's doing, because she doesn't even register than anyone might get pissed at her. Maybe this experience changes that too? Who knows. I'm excited to find out though :)

carmencatalina
May 18th, 2010, 10:46 AM
Am I the only one that thinks Greer was about to shoot Wray (and kill her) when Rush smacked him with the pipe? I really think the only reason that Wray is alive is that crazy!Rush (accidentally) saved her life.

Tuvok
May 18th, 2010, 10:51 AM
Am I the only one that thinks Greer was about to shoot Wray (and kill her) when Rush smacked him with the pipe? I really think the only reason that Wray is alive is that crazy!Rush (accidentally) saved her life.

I was going to go with no.

But then everybody was hopped up on the crazy . From Volger , Rush to James. I would like to say no but everybody infected was capable of anything. Even Greer.

Then again Chloe just got a nice buzz out of it.

:P

xxxevilgrinxxx
May 18th, 2010, 10:54 AM
Am I the only one that thinks Greer was about to shoot Wray (and kill her) when Rush smacked him with the pipe? I really think the only reason that Wray is alive is that crazy!Rush (accidentally) saved her life.

I think we were left to wonder for a reason. Do I think he would have shot her? No, I don't think so, or he would have done it. Greer is a guy that in his own words doesn't sweat what he has to do if he has to do it. And yet, it takes an alien space tick, hallucinations, what he thought was the go ahead from Young, a belief that these two civilians were going to harm everyone again and a visit from dear old dad and he still didn't do it. But I do think they're both going to be thinking hard about it, not only about would he have shot her, but more importantly, why he didn't.

latvian_stargatefan
May 18th, 2010, 12:21 PM
well put
Young has his right-hand in Scott but he's definitely got his enforcer in Greer
we might see it in ep. 18-19

Blackhole
May 18th, 2010, 01:58 PM
Am I the only one that thinks Greer was about to shoot Wray (and kill her) when Rush smacked him with the pipe? I really think the only reason that Wray is alive is that crazy!Rush (accidentally) saved her life.

I like Greer but in all fairness I have to agree with you. He was raising his gun towards Wray when Rush struck him in the back with the pipe. It appeared to me that he had decided to shoot her when Rush interceded. But SGU likes its ambiguity and we really don't know if he would have actually pulled the trigger.

Blackhole
May 18th, 2010, 02:09 PM
*Not only James and Greer but Rush as well, perhaps especially. James never clocked a real person, and Greer never shot Wray, but Rush did stab Wray, and did go all pipe happy. Of course it's the hallucinations so it doesn't have the same weight and so maybe it's only Rush and James that have been violent. I would be very surprised if Greer didn't try to make amends. He seemed to want to say something to Wray. I hope she'll let him but I don't know if she will. Wray sort of strikes me as one of those people that will blindly walk into danger, completely oblivious to what she's doing, because she doesn't even register than anyone might get pissed at her. Maybe this experience changes that too? Who knows. I'm excited to find out though :)

Actually, James head butted the civilian during Divided. Rush did stab Wray and hit both Greer and Scott but he was hallucinating and believed they were the Blue Skinned Aliens. Anybody would have done the same thing. I don't think his hallucination was particularly telling at all. James was shown striking Scott and killing him when he scorned her and Greer gave himself permission to take punitive action towards Wray and Rush. Why did their sub consciousness minds create those specific scenarios? Scott is military and he had a non-violent hallucination. The fact that both James and Greer had violent ones is very telling imo.

xxxevilgrinxxx
May 18th, 2010, 02:18 PM
Actually, James head butted the civilian during Divided. Rush did stab Wray and hit both Greer and Scott but he was hallucinating and believed they were the Blue Skinned Aliens. Anybody would have done the same thing. I don't think his hallucination was particularly telling at all. James was shown striking Scott and killing him when he scorned her and Greer gave himself permission to take punitive action towards Wray and Rush. Why did their sub consciousness minds create those specific scenarios? Scott is military and he had a non-violent hallucination. The fact that both James and Greer had violent ones is very telling imo.I was only going on the violence in "Pain" :) In Pain, James never clocks a real person (although if Scott had actually been there, she would have killed him). I'm not holding it against Rush for defending himself; just bringing up that he's the only person in the episode that actually hurt anyone. The why of the hallucinations is pretty neat and I would have loved to have seen another bunch of people have hallucinations.

Blackhole
May 18th, 2010, 02:38 PM
I was only going on the violence in "Pain" :) In Pain, James never clocks a real person (although if Scott had actually been there, she would have killed him). I'm not holding it against Rush for defending himself; just bringing up that he's the only person in the episode that actually hurt anyone. The why of the hallucinations is pretty neat and I would have loved to have seen another bunch of people have hallucinations.

I understand and you are right.

Blackhole
May 18th, 2010, 03:50 PM
First, can I just say that I find the pit bull analogy hilarious? Mine, when unrestrained, immediately initiate play or gravitate towards upholstered furniture for naps. I understand the point behind the phrase, but my mental image of 'unleashed pit bull Greer' is going in a completely different direction. :D

I've made the point before, but that was ages ago in a defunct thread and I think it bears repeating here. Greer does go right to the threat-of-violence as one of his first tools. But the only practical reason behind any such threat is to prevent escalation into actual violence. Sure, he's the guy with his finger on the red button, saying "Stop what you're doing or I'll set off the nukes." But that's a far cry from being a guy who's going to set off the nukes first time someone crosses him. Even his actual show of unprovoked violence - kicking Rush in Air III - was not as bad as it could have been. There was nothing admirable about it, don't get me wrong, but Rush is frail by comparison and Greer could have done some serious damage if that had been his goal. It doesn't seem that it was. I got the feeling it was his equivalent of shoving someone who's mouthing off to your buddy, just dialed up to eleven - that the intent was not to hurt Rush so much as to shut him up. Rush himself said, in the same episode, that if Greer really wanted to shoot him, he would have done it already, which I think is absolutely true. If we accept this read on the character as accurate, then he's actually a lot more self-controlled than he first appears.

I also think that, while he's totally prepared to go as far as he needs to, he'll only go that far when he feels he has reason. His ersatz psych eval with TJ in Life was very telling:

GREER: Look, there's a bad guy out there; put a gun in my hand, I'll go kill him. I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it. Your ass needs saving, I'm gonna save it or I'm gonna die trying.

What I find most interesting here is that he's very blase about the killing but adamant about the saving. A lot of his actions do bear this out - he went with Scott to help save Chloe in Space; he was the first one to volunteer to sit in the chair; in Time, he was unable to accept a version of events in which people died on his watch. Even his less admirable moments could be interpreted that way - shutting Wray up would keep her from questioning Young's decision to release him; kicking Rush kept him from questioning Scott's command; arming Eli gave him the only defense he could get against Rush, whom he has clearly never trusted with anyone's best interests but his own; his actions in Justice would have saved Young from Wray's efforts to oust him, and from Young's own determination to let her. I think that, whatever we think he is, Greer considers himself at least as much a protector as he is a killer.

I live near a military base and interact with all branches of the armed forces on a regular basis, and this is not atypical in the least. This is the mentality. When these folks are in combat, doing what they have to do requires setting aside more philosophical considerations. They don't think about whether or not it's socially acceptable to kick a civilian, or advance menacingly on a woman, or to point guns at unarmed people. While they're on the job, which is literally life-and-death, the job is of paramount importance. Once they come home, when they're no longer in danger and surrounded by the enemy, the more civilized aspects of morality can again be considered. But Greer's still deployed. He's still on duty 24-7, with potential enemies inside the ship, outside the ship, and on every planet they visit, and there's no relief in sight. I think that also must be considered - we've never really seen Greer off-duty. He's always 'on', and that has a huge impact, I think, on his behavior.

I am a dog lover and I think pit bulls have gotten a bum rap. They are only as aggressive as their owners have trained them to be and are not inherently mean or vicious dogs.

I agree with your assessment of Greer and that the military mentality in combat is different than a civilian one and is necessary and different when soldiers are off the job. I agree that Greer is never off the job and I think many Greer detractors don’t fully understand and appreciate that reality.

Cory Holmes
May 18th, 2010, 05:52 PM
First, can I just say that I find the pit bull analogy hilarious? Mine, when unrestrained, immediately initiate play or gravitate towards upholstered furniture for naps. I understand the point behind the phrase, but my mental image of 'unleashed pit bull Greer' is going in a completely different direction. :D
Yes. Yes you may say that :)


Sure, he's the guy with his finger on the red button, saying "Stop what you're doing or I'll set off the nukes." But that's a far cry from being a guy who's going to set off the nukes first time someone crosses him.
Absolutly true, but it's also worth mentioning that if Young ordered him to, or if it would benefit Young in any way, Greer would do it without hesitation.

Personally, I really enjoy the dichotomoy of Greer's personality. When loyalty is required of him, it's a distant and professional type. When he chooses to give his loyalty, it's absolute and without consideration.

senatorincitatus
May 20th, 2010, 09:58 AM
*That second point is great, especially as it's out of his own mouth - that's the way he sees it, and it's a great distinction. These same people that Greer would kick their ass, I bet he'd die trying to save them too. He might give them grief over it and not be too gentle about it, but he'd do it. Of that I have no doubt.

Totally agree. I really think that if everyone were in danger, he'd make sure that even Rush or Wray were safe before he saw to securing his own safety.


*You're right that Greer is always "on". There are brief glimpses, mostly in the Kinosodes, where he's not on and he seems like a far more gentle person, or at least that he's capable of that. Kidding around with Eli about his disrespecting of female officers and talking with Park (I believe) about what was hurting her. I completely get you on the military mentality.

I'd forgotten about the kinosodes, and you're right, they do show him in a different light. There was the one with Park after Rush made her cry, the probably-not-really-joking to Eli about spying on the gals, the most recent one with Scott, and the one (I think it was a DVD exclusive) where he hit Eli with a 'your mom' when Eli wouldn't leave him alone. They do show a gentler side in comparison, but it's still harsher than a lot of folks' harsh side. I think that's awesome, personally; many of the marines I know have this particular sort of abrasiveness that is reflected very accurately in Greer.


I am a dog lover and I think pit bulls have gotten a bum rap. They are only as aggressive as their owners have trained them to be and are not inherently mean or vicious dogs.

Yeah, in my experience they're hyper-social clownish wigglebutts who won't stand up to a bossy cat and turn into shivering blanket-stealing wusses if the temperature drops below 65. I don't think that's the image anyone was trying to evoke for Greer. ;)


I agree with your assessment of Greer and that the military mentality in combat is different than a civilian one and is necessary and different when soldiers are off the job. I agree that Greer is never off the job and I think many Greer detractors don’t fully understand and appreciate that reality.

True, but I can also understand that lack-of-understanding. Combat military guys (and gals) can take some getting used to, and I imagine that, for a lot of people, experience with them is limited to television and movie portrayals. Greer's pretty realistic in my experience, but he's one of the few fictional characters that is. As a fictional military character, he keeps company with lovable deadpan snarkers like O'Neill, and screw-discipline hotshots like Shepherd, and the requisite goofy guy in any military movie - in comparison, Greer stands out. For me, he stands out because I can say, "I know guys like that"; for someone else, he might stand out as being incredibly vicious because he's a harsher character than they're used to seeing. There's nothing really wrong with that; personal experience informs every opinion, after all.


Yes. Yes you may say that :)

You're so kind. :P


Absolutly true, but it's also worth mentioning that if Young ordered him to, or if it would benefit Young in any way, Greer would do it without hesitation.

Oh, absolutely. His actions in Justice pretty much proved that, with him willing to forcibly subdue the civilians for Young's sake, even though Young didn't want him to. It's reflective of this odd relationship between officers and their NCOs that doesn't really have any civilian equivalent - the NCO is both subordinate to and responsible for the officers they serve under. It's clearer with Greer and Scott, but I think there's a definite element of it present between Greer and Young as well, and even arguable snippets between Greer and TJ - he has to do what they say, but damn if he isn't gonna take care of them while he's doing it.


Personally, I really enjoy the dichotomoy of Greer's personality. When loyalty is required of him, it's a distant and professional type. When he chooses to give his loyalty, it's absolute and without consideration.

That's a good distinction. I think we'd be seeing a very different set of behaviors from Greer if someone other than Young were in charge.

carmencatalina
May 20th, 2010, 10:38 AM
I just want to chime in with the observation that Greer's character elicits some of the most thoughtful discussion on these boards (see all your posts above!) - he is really an interesting character. I think the writing for him has been good, but I also think that actor is just wonderful.

Even when I'm thinking the worst of him (I thought he might be really ready to kill Wray), I care about him, I want to know more.

xxxevilgrinxxx
May 20th, 2010, 10:52 AM
I just want to chime in with the observation that Greer's character elicits some of the most thoughtful discussion on these boards (see all your posts above!) - he is really an interesting character. I think the writing for him has been good, but I also think that actor is just wonderful.

Even when I'm thinking the worst of him (I thought he might be really ready to kill Wray), I care about him, I want to know more.
green! It's a good point. The character has some serious depth, no doubt there.

JustAnotherVoice
May 20th, 2010, 03:11 PM
The character has some serious depth, no doubt there.

Too bad that kind of love isn't spread around the rest of the cast :( If SGU makes it out of the 2nd season, they may as well rebrand it "The Rush, Young and Greer variety hour!"

xxxevilgrinxxx
May 20th, 2010, 03:14 PM
Too bad that kind of love isn't spread around the rest of the cast :( If SGU makes it out of the 2nd season, they may as well rebrand it "The Rush, Young and Greer variety hour!"

odd, I love a lot of the characters and I don't think I'm alone there, but this is a Greer thread so of course we're going to love Greer here. Just check out a few of the other thunk threads, maybe that will cheer you up :D

JustAnotherVoice
May 20th, 2010, 03:26 PM
odd, I love a lot of the characters and I don't think I'm alone there, but this is a Greer thread so of course we're going to love Greer here. Just check out a few of the other thunk threads, maybe that will cheer you up :D

I don't expect anything else in a Greer love thread :p I just hope for a day when there are thought provoking threads on some of the other "main" characters, which aren't exclusively love-in/drool fest threads. There was a good discussion on Wray a few episodes back, and Young/Rush have more than their fair share, but what about some love from the writers for the other half of the cast?

I suppose I'll be content that there has been more thought provoking moments so far in SGU than in SGA's entire run :D

EllieVee
May 20th, 2010, 06:43 PM
good point, and yes, I agree that's a big part of it, that loyalty to Young.

To the extent that he is willing to overlook any evil committed by Young.

xxxevilgrinxxx
May 20th, 2010, 06:44 PM
To the extent that he is willing to overlook any evil committed by Young.

come on, Young doesn't have a moustache to twirl, so it's not evil :)

EllieVee
May 20th, 2010, 06:59 PM
Not so much a ticking bomb as he is a leashed pitbull, with Young holding the leash. Greer's absolute, unshakable faith in Colonel Young has been demonstrated before and in Pain we got to see what would happen if that leash were ever let go. As long as Young is around and has a firm grasp, then Greer is just fine to be around civilized crewmembers; if not...

:(

I'm unlikely to ever own a pitbull but seriously, they're not historically known as 'nanny dogs' for nothing, you know.


First, can I just say that I find the pit bull analogy hilarious? Mine, when unrestrained, immediately initiate play or gravitate towards upholstered furniture for naps. I understand the point behind the phrase, but my mental image of 'unleashed pit bull Greer' is going in a completely different direction. :D

Thanks for this. The pitbull as vicious dog thing really annoys me.


I disagree. What has Greer done that has ever been that violent? Imo in every instance when Greer has been aggressive the provoking party more than had it coming. Please provide unjustified examples. In Pain he believed that Rush and Wray had incited another mutiny. Frankly if they had done so on the heels of their first one then he should have shot them both. He was hallucinating and wasn’t responsible. Among others, Rush was running around the ship because he thought the Blue Aliens had invaded and Lt. James thought she had killed Lt. Scott. Greer is solider and Imo I think he has performed his job admirably with the necessary force and restraint.

I'm quite sure if Young told Greer to shoot someone he would. After all, he shot Franklin when Rush told him to. If his master told him to, he'd pipe up and say, 'Yes, sir, how many times, sir?!'

GREER: I don't know exactly what happened on that planet between you and Rush, and maybe I don't wanna know.

YOUNG: Spit it out, Sergeant.

GREER: Well, we never did find out who put that weapon in your quarters, sir.

YOUNG: No.

GREER: There's been some speculation.

YOUNG: I bet.

GREER: As far as I'm concerned, we were better off without him. Just want you to know that, whatever happens ...


Am I the only one that thinks Greer was about to shoot Wray (and kill her) when Rush smacked him with the pipe? I really think the only reason that Wray is alive is that crazy!Rush (accidentally) saved her life.

Yes, he'd have shot her.

natyanayaki
May 20th, 2010, 07:12 PM
Greer must accept responsibility that his commander upholds: everyone on the ship is to be protected, even difficult and dislikeable ones. Greer was far too ready to kill Wray and Rush. I understand why, and I understand he was hallucinating so that he thought he had clearance to do so. But actually taking another human life requires a level of aggression and apathy that I find alarming. Especially in the circumstance where Wray was wounded, pleading for her life, and not an immediate threat.


I do think he knows that he's responsible for the entire crew, military and civilian. He's shown multiple times how he feel about his responsibility, in "Time" and the episode in which they found the chair (I forgot the title, I think it was "Life"), and I don't doubt for a second that he would risk his life to protect all aboard, including Rush and Wray (unless they were the direct cause of the situation). And I don't find his ability to so easily take a human's life that alarming, given his particular circumstance. We're talking about a marine, who has been to war at least once, he's lived in an environment in which he'd have to be ready to fight and kill at any moment. That's his job, he'd need to be apathetic in order to survive, and I can't blame him for his will to survive. Also, as many have pointed out, there were indications that while Greer may have heard Wray's pleading, that he really wasn't hearing her, and due to the hallucinations, he thought that Wray was in fact an immediate threat, and he believed that his commanding officer had given him the permission to get rid of the threat.


For Rush's part, he's only shown the ability to directly kill someone if they are not human. He's been a factor in every death so far, to some degree or another, but most of the time he recoils from violence.

But I don't know that it's fair to compare how comfortable Rush, who as far as we know has no military experience, hasn't lived in an actual war-zone, is with killing to Greer, a trained marine who has been to Iraq (or maybe it was Afghanistan). It's not fair to forget Greer's past experiences when when looking at his actions at present.


Rush didn't do anything to him at that time to warrant such a reaction, he was just being a jackass.

I agree that at that moment Greer was let his emotions take him over; however, this was nearly immediately after Rush's actions directly stranded him aboard a ship, that for all he knew at that time was about to stop working, and after Rush started *****ing at him for not giving him Greer's water because Rush was in his mind selfless enough to lend Scott his. Regarding Wray, the fact that Riley was even able to stop him, indicates his self-control IMO.


But he does not behave like Scott, who is the model for how an officer should act.

Scott is an officer, a "green" officer, Greer is an battle-hardened marine. Scott's job is to issue Young's order, Greer's job is to make sure the orders are fulfilled. Greer and Scott are not trained to act or react in the same way.


He was sick, as was James who in an infected state bashed Scotts head in.

Exactly, he was sick.



I've made the point before, but that was ages ago in a defunct thread and I think it bears repeating here. Greer does go right to the threat-of-violence as one of his first tools. But the only practical reason behind any such threat is to prevent escalation into actual violence. Sure, he's the guy with his finger on the red button, saying "Stop what you're doing or I'll set off the nukes."


YES. This. Green for you.


I think that, whatever we think he is, Greer considers himself at least as much a protector as he is a killer.

In Greer's own mind, he's more a protector than a killer. Killing, for him is about protecting the individuals he's responsible for.

I think Kinosode 25 is a great example of the fact that Greer is always "on" even when his superiors feel that they are off at times.


I just want to chime in with the observation that Greer's character elicits some of the most thoughtful discussion on these boards (see all your posts above!) - he is really an interesting character. I think the writing for him has been good, but I also think that actor is just wonderful.

Even when I'm thinking the worst of him (I thought he might be really ready to kill Wray), I care about him, I want to know more.

What I like about Greer, and more specifically about Jamil, is how much I'm able to understand him, from so little. Greer isn't my type of character, at all, but he's become my favorite. In one interview Jamil said that he feels that though he doesn't always agree with Greer, when he's playing Greer, he has to act as if he agrees with Greer. I think the fact that the actor's perspective isn't the same as Greer's, that the actor has to work to find Greer's perspective helps my understanding and helps keep my interest in him. And I too care about Greer, in some ways I see him as a big lion or bear, kept captive at a zoo. I want to hug him, but I know it's probably not a good idea, I wish it were different, but I can't totally blame him for his feelings/instincts. Actually, he's probably the only primary character I care about (and I credit Jamil with that). I'm interested in Rush, Wray but I don't care about them. I'm interested in Greer, and I care about him, along with Riley, Volker, Brody and a few other "secondary" characters.

xxxevilgrinxxx
May 20th, 2010, 07:20 PM
....

Scott is an officer, a "green" officer, Greer is an battle-hardened marine. Scott's job is to issue Young's order, Greer's job is to make sure the orders are fulfilled. Greer and Scott are not trained to act or react in the same way......I agree that this is a very important distinction to make. Being military does not make them all the same any more than all being civilians or scientists make "the other side" all the same.

JustAnotherVoice
May 20th, 2010, 08:21 PM
Scott is an officer, a "green" officer, Greer is an battle-hardened marine. Scott's job is to issue Young's order, Greer's job is to make sure the orders are fulfilled. Greer and Scott are not trained to act or react in the same way.



Now that you mention this, I'm surprised Greer isn't much more critical of Scott's actions, or Scott/Young doesn't go to Greer for advice more often. As a MSgt, Greer has a wealth of practical knowledge that the officers are ignoring. True, he's enlisted with disciplinary issues, but his voice should carry much more weight than three junior officers (one of which is fresh out of the academy) by virtue of experience.

Cory Holmes
May 21st, 2010, 03:03 AM
:(

I'm unlikely to ever own a pitbull but seriously, they're not historically known as 'nanny dogs' for nothing, you know.

I'm a dog person myself and I do know the difference. I was merely using commonly-accepted hyperbole to make my point.

EllieVee
May 21st, 2010, 04:37 AM
I'm a dog person myself and I do know the difference. I was merely using commonly-accepted hyperbole to make my point.

Please don't. It just perpetuates the stereotype.

natyanayaki
May 21st, 2010, 01:45 PM
cnnrstrav posted this in Greer's character thread: Jamil's take on his character Greer: http://stargate.mgm.com/view/content/2191/index.html

I'm a dog lover, a pitt bull enthusiast...but I didn't know that they're known as nanny dogs. It's so sad that the stigma against them has lead so many into abusive and "tough" situations...:(