An Ancient Debate.

[Dragon_Heart]

And no, it is not a debate about something that has been long argued.


It is literally about the ancients/Laneteans/Alterrans. Whatever you want to call them, their species collectively bar the Ori.


Is it me, or are they complete and utter screw ups? All in all, they lived for millions of years perhaps much much more, yet when they ascended to their "higher" plane of existence, they left all of their unfinished crap behind for other, less advanced and knowledgable species to find and muck about with.
I' not saying it is all bad or that this was their intent, but lets look at some key negative points about these over-imaginative species.


1. The Goa'uld scavenged ancient technology and enslaved millions of humans for as we all know thousands of years. Should they not have known this could happen and thus wipe their technology from existence?

2. The asurans. They clearly should have run deep scans after they decimated them. And it was wrong to do so in the first place.



Ill give more later, give your poinions guys and gals

[asdf1239]

of course, at least about the pegasus lanteans. they were incompetent and evil. not only did they irresponsibly leave things like the asurans and the virus and atterodevice behind, they foolishly lost to the wraith and left the humans (who they were trying to protect??) at their mercy.

[Morganrone93]

I just got to remind you all.

They fought and tried to protect and free the rest of the galaxy for 100 years, and besides, even we humans are darn foolish during a war, but come on, for 100 years, obviously mistakes will happen, and eventually, you loose all hope, you just keep loosing more and more for 100 years, that would break everyones mind, the attero device was created by one ancient, one alone, and he hid it for the others, they did wipe out the Asurans, but, they maybe didnt have time to do any "deep scans" since the Wraith was probably luring around the corner.

You guys are over estimating the ancients, everyone can make mistakes, its fracking ( I watched too much BSG lately) impossible to prevent all misstakes or failures, since you learn by mistakes, + being supressed for a 100 years doesnt really help anything.

Desperate times needs desperate methods. ( if thats correct quoted )

[s09119]

This debate has been going on since the dawn of GateWorld. The bottom line is that the Ancients did far less "evil" things than humanity has, and they always did said "evil" thing in the name of trying to help others or preserve their people. They didn't really have a choice in leaving all their technology lying around in the Milky Way because, you know, a deadly plague was in the process of exterminating them. I'm sure if they had the luxury of spending a few dozen years to go around and clean up, they would have, but it was a mater of life and death. They used every last second to its fullest, desperately trying to evacuate a population that must have numbered in the trillions and save what they could of their civilization. What would you have done differently? Sacrificed your last chance to save your race to pick up every last thing your people ever made, everywhere? Try and collect ever man-made thing on Earth and see how well or smooth that goes. And tell me in a billion years when you're finally done.

As for the things the Lanteans did... the Asurans were a weapon, nothing more. They were designed as nanites, not sentient beings, remember. They advanced like that on their own. If guns suddenly began talking and saying they wouldn't kill for us, do you really think our response would be any different? We'd probably just destroy them all and build a new batch. Let's be honest here.

And lastly, they died for us. They could have just left Pegasus and gone back to Earth, but instead they stayed and fought to, literally, the last handful of men for those humans. They let their society get torn apart and shredded by the Wraith, all their people massacred, and all their work destroyed, on the slim chance they could protect those people from death. Where in this story are they the bad guys?

[Wayston]

1. The Goa'uld scavenged ancient technology and enslaved millions of humans for as we all know thousands of years. Should they not have known this could happen and thus wipe their technology from existence?

Was it ever definitively established that the goa'uld scavenged their technology from the ancients? It doesn't really look like ancient technology (other than the stargates obviously). Their transport, ship or weapons technology wasn't exactly top notch (earth bullet guns were equally if not more effective than goa'uld weapons!).

In any case there were also the asgards which used ancient technology for the good of the galaxy!

2. The asurans. They clearly should have run deep scans after they decimated them. And it was wrong to do so in the first place.

they engaged multiple aurora class starships to wipe out the asurans at a time when these ships could have been used to plug holes in the ever collapsing ancient frontline against the wraith. They were a desperate mistake from a desparate people who did everything they could to correct it. If the Ancients could have checked whether the asurans survived they would have, why go through all the trouble of wiping out an entire planet when you're going to let them rebuild it from scratch (or in the asuran case a few atoms or something ).

[Dragon_Heart]

This debate has been going on since the dawn of GateWorld. The bottom line is that the Ancients did far less "evil" things than humanity has, and they always did said "evil" thing in the name of trying to help others or preserve their people. They didn't really have a choice in leaving all their technology lying around in the Milky Way because, you know, a deadly plague was in the process of exterminating them. I'm sure if they had the luxury of spending a few dozen years to go around and clean up, they would have, but it was a mater of life and death. They used every last second to its fullest, desperately trying to evacuate a population that must have numbered in the trillions and save what they could of their civilization. What would you have done differently? Sacrificed your last chance to save your race to pick up every last thing your people ever made, everywhere? Try and collect ever man-made thing on Earth and see how well or smooth that goes. And tell me in a billion years when you're finally done.

This is not a debate on humanity, so comparing ourselves to them is pretty pointless. This is solely based on the ancients.
They didn't need luxury to destroy the most harmful technology they left behind. If we built a device that can break matter apart at its very base i think before we moved on from that world/galaxy we would destroy it. Giving a species that power in itself is completely wrong. They left the milky way in atlantis, well that was the only ship we have seen leave, the rest probably gated. But, they could have very easily dropped out and destroyed devices from orbit. Not only that, but when they ascended and gained almighty power they should have destroyed all of their technology, or at least the harmful tech. Obviously not every last piece, im targetting the dangerous technology such as the Dakara device.

As for the things the Lanteans did... the Asurans were a weapon, nothing more. They were designed as nanites, not sentient beings, remember. They advanced like that on their own. If guns suddenly began talking and saying they wouldn't kill for us, do you really think our response would be any different? We'd probably just destroy them all and build a new batch. Let's be honest here.

And lastly, they died for us. They could have just left Pegasus and gone back to Earth, but instead they stayed and fought to, literally, the last handful of men for those humans. They let their society get torn apart and shredded by the Wraith, all their people massacred, and all their work destroyed, on the slim chance they could protect those people from death. Where in this story are they the bad guys?

The Asurans developed into sentient beings. Tell me where exterminating a sentient race is justifiable, and you can argue the asurans case more. Im sure if guns began talking we would investigate after removing their ammo not just quickly wipe them out. what the hell is wrong with you.

They seeded human life, of course they are going to protect it. Im not calling the ancients bad people at the core, what i said was that they have screwed up on so many occasions, resulting in so many deaths the very LEAST they could do is destroy all of their dangerous technology.
For example, im sure one intelligent ancient thought "oh i know, let us leave this repository of knowledge here for absolutely ANYONE to come along and decipher (just as the asgard did). What if this species was hell bent on destruction of other species? Leaving your legacy behind is fair enough, but not for any species to pick up and use. Imagine if the milky way replicators got their hands on one of those things? The asgard would have been wiped out, and immenently so would we and every other world with sufficient resources.


The ancients did fight the wraith until their last stronghold, nobody is denying that, and i am certianly not saying they are wrong for doing so. They inadvertantly created the wraith, and so the wraith have every right to live. Their only means of survival was humans, so why did the ancients not develop perhaps an anti-virus or something along the lines. It would neutralise the combat, and if we came seemingly close, they would have had not to much trouble.

Saying this, who are they to attack a species trying to keep themselves alive? We hunt animals. If it was nessesary for life that we needed to feed on the wraith, our civilisation would have no hesitation in attacking and culling these wraith for survival.
Look at it this way, the wraith kept the human populace alive at all times, allowing them time to regain large numbers. So, both species continuity was continued. However, it is obviously wrong to let humans be fed upon and shrivel up into a corpse. Which is why the ancients should have and probahbly could have developed a antivirus 1) for the humans, perhaps a pathogen, that makes them immune to feeding (as we did almost successfully) and then offer the wraith the ability to return to human form. This would also stop fighting.


The ancients could even pick up their technology now, they are ascended. However, their rules prevent them from doing so.

[Puddle-Jumper]

Its very possible that when the ancients ascended they could see how their technology would affect the galaxy, and left it there as the other outcomes were unlikely... though yes its a hell of a lot more likely that they were screw ups.. I really don't think that the TPTB should have made the wraith a byproduct of the ancients... They could have just as easily made them just a random alien race that showed up and started feeding on humans, I always thought that it was a bit weird how the wraith defeated them, it was said in the early days of Atlantis that they only have like 50 hives or something, if that was all that was left at the end of war the ancients could have easily take them on with Atlantis and 1 or 2 aurora class ships....

It just really seemed that in the later years of SG1 and atlantis they portrayed the ancients as being more and more useless, Mckay solving all their problems by snapping his fingers, doing nothing about the ori etc...

[s09119]

This is not a debate on humanity, so comparing ourselves to them is pretty pointless. This is solely based on the ancients.
They didn't need luxury to destroy the most harmful technology they left behind. If we built a device that can break matter apart at its very base i think before we moved on from that world/galaxy we would destroy it. Giving a species that power in itself is completely wrong. They left the milky way in atlantis, well that was the only ship we have seen leave, the rest probably gated. But, they could have very easily dropped out and destroyed devices from orbit. Not only that, but when they ascended and gained almighty power they should have destroyed all of their technology, or at least the harmful tech. Obviously not every last piece, im targetting the dangerous technology such as the Dakara device.


The Asurans developed into sentient beings. Tell me where exterminating a sentient race is justifiable, and you can argue the asurans case more. Im sure if guns began talking we would investigate after removing their ammo not just quickly wipe them out. what the hell is wrong with you.

They seeded human life, of course they are going to protect it. Im not calling the ancients bad people at the core, what i said was that they have screwed up on so many occasions, resulting in so many deaths the very LEAST they could do is destroy all of their dangerous technology.
For example, im sure one intelligent ancient thought "oh i know, let us leave this repository of knowledge here for absolutely ANYONE to come along and decipher (just as the asgard did). What if this species was hell bent on destruction of other species? Leaving your legacy behind is fair enough, but not for any species to pick up and use. Imagine if the milky way replicators got their hands on one of those things? The asgard would have been wiped out, and immenently so would we and every other world with sufficient resources.


The ancients did fight the wraith until their last stronghold, nobody is denying that, and i am certianly not saying they are wrong for doing so. They inadvertantly created the wraith, and so the wraith have every right to live. Their only means of survival was humans, so why did the ancients not develop perhaps an anti-virus or something along the lines. It would neutralise the combat, and if we came seemingly close, they would have had not to much trouble.

Saying this, who are they to attack a species trying to keep themselves alive? We hunt animals. If it was nessesary for life that we needed to feed on the wraith, our civilisation would have no hesitation in attacking and culling these wraith for survival.
Look at it this way, the wraith kept the human populace alive at all times, allowing them time to regain large numbers. So, both species continuity was continued. However, it is obviously wrong to let humans be fed upon and shrivel up into a corpse. Which is why the ancients should have and probahbly could have developed a antivirus 1) for the humans, perhaps a pathogen, that makes them immune to feeding (as we did almost successfully) and then offer the wraith the ability to return to human form. This would also stop fighting.


The ancients could even pick up their technology now, they are ascended. However, their rules prevent them from doing so.

1. I can bring humanity into it because Ancients and humans are essentially the same species, so since we have the same basic thought processes, our reactions are a valid source. Also, you're being a hypocrite if you attack them for the very thing we do here.

2. Again, if a plague struck Earth tomorrow; what do you think world governments would be most concerned with; trying to come up with a cure and evacuate the population... or ensure all of our nukes were destroyed in a safe and environmentally-friendly manner so that squirrels, if and when they advanced to our level of intelligence, would not use them on one another. Really, think that through very carefully.

3. They didn't "attack a race that just wanted to live." The Wraith attacked them, remember? The Lanteans were fighting a war of defense. And furthermore, they probably didn't realize that it was their spreading human life that inadvertently lead to the Wraith popping up. How would they have known that unless the Wraith sat them down and explained that they were once Iratus bugs that happened upon humans and fed on them? Why would they bother doing that when they'd prefer to just wipe the Lanteans out?

[asdf1239]

1. I can bring humanity into it because Ancients and humans are essentially the same species, so since we have the same basic thought processes, our reactions are a valid source. Also, you're being a hypocrite if you attack them for the very thing we do here.

ancients and humans are not the same species. ancients were far more physically advanced, especially their brains and intellect. they are more "enlightened" and thus should be held to higher standards than baseline humans.

2. Again, if a plague struck Earth tomorrow; what do you think world governments would be most concerned with; trying to come up with a cure and evacuate the population... or ensure all of our nukes were destroyed in a safe and environmentally-friendly manner so that squirrels, if and when they advanced to our level of intelligence, would not use them on one another. Really, think that through very carefully.

your analogy is flawed. the ancients knew that life in the milky way would evolve to civilization. in fact, i believe they planned for it to happen. they did not forsee the consequences and it was their fault.

3. They didn't "attack a race that just wanted to live." The Wraith attacked them, remember? The Lanteans were fighting a war of defense. And furthermore, they probably didn't realize that it was their spreading human life that inadvertently lead to the Wraith popping up. How would they have known that unless the Wraith sat them down and explained that they were once Iratus bugs that happened upon humans and fed on them? Why would they bother doing that when they'd prefer to just wipe the Lanteans out?

the wraith were feeding on humans. the lanteans fought them because of this. also, if the atlantis team can capture a wraith for study then so can the lanteans.

yes, mistakes happen. the lanteans however were playing god with an entire galaxy and had a responsibility to make sure they didn't screw it up. "it happens" is not a valid excuse when you are manipulating life on that scale and one mistake could cause the deaths of entire populations.
and you cannot deny that what the lanteans did to the asurans was genocide. the asurans were sentient at that point, it doesn't really matter that they evolved from nanites. genociding humans is not alright because they evolved from nonsentient single celled organisms. it only makes it worse that the asurans were designed as a weapon, the lanteans started the mess(es) and they clean it up by exterminating them and wiping the debacle from their records.

imo the pegasus lanteans were much worse than the milkyway ancients, who are fine for the most part except for the technology thing.

[s09119]

ancients and humans are not the same species. ancients were far more physically advanced, especially their brains and intellect. they are more "enlightened" and thus should be held to higher standards than baseline humans.

your analogy is flawed. the ancients knew that life in the milky way would evolve to civilization. in fact, i believe they planned for it to happen. they did not forsee the consequences and it was their fault.

the wraith were feeding on humans. the lanteans fought them because of this. also, if the atlantis team can capture a wraith for study then so can the lanteans.

yes, mistakes happen. the lanteans however were playing god with an entire galaxy and had a responsibility to make sure they didn't screw it up. "it happens" is not a valid excuse when you are manipulating life on that scale and one mistake could cause the deaths of entire populations.
and you cannot deny that what the lanteans did to the asurans was genocide. the asurans were sentient at that point, it doesn't really matter that they evolved from nanites. genociding humans is not alright because they evolved from nonsentient single celled organisms. it only makes it worse that the asurans were designed as a weapon, the lanteans started the mess(es) and they clean it up by exterminating them and wiping the debacle from their records.

imo the pegasus lanteans were much worse than the milkyway ancients, who are fine for the most part except for the technology thing.

You ignored all of my points so I'm not going to bother with a reply. We can agree to disagree.

[asdf1239]

You ignored all of my points so I'm not going to bother with a reply. We can agree to disagree.

i replied to all your points and by deigning to forgo a reply you lose. =\
nice try at evasion though

[escyos]

who says that the goa'uld found an ancient database, they return the earth 10,000 years ago roughly around the time Ra showed up, perhaps he tortured some ancients for information and took a bunch of the stuff they brought back with them

[lordofseas]

ancients and humans are not the same species. ancients were far more physically advanced, especially their brains and intellect. they are more "enlightened" and thus should be held to higher standards than baseline humans.

John Sheppard and Epiphany. Just because Ancients lived in an enlightened environment doesn't mean humans can't become as enlightened as they.

your analogy is flawed. the ancients knew that life in the milky way would evolve to civilization. in fact, i believe they planned for it to happen. they did not forsee the consequences and it was their fault.

What you believe has nothing to do with this. The fact remains, the Ancients can't be held responsible for each and every potential civilization.

the wraith were feeding on humans. the lanteans fought them because of this. also, if the atlantis team can capture a wraith for study then so can the lanteans.

I'm sure they did. They would be incompetent beyond belief if they didn't.

yes, mistakes happen. the lanteans however were playing god with an entire galaxy and had a responsibility to make sure they didn't screw it up. "it happens" is not a valid excuse when you are manipulating life on that scale and one mistake could cause the deaths of entire populations.

Playing God? Human beings, sci-fi or not, have no ability to critize others about playing God. Each and every time you interfere with the natural order of things, you are playing God. Nagasaki and Hiroshima = Playing God. Iraq War = Playing God. When they give life "potential", they were playing God, yes. I'm so sorry to burst your bubble, but we all play God with each other.

and you cannot deny that what the lanteans did to the asurans was genocide. the asurans were sentient at that point, it doesn't really matter that they evolved from nanites. genociding humans is not alright because they evolved from nonsentient single celled organisms. it only makes it worse that the asurans were designed as a weapon, the lanteans started the mess(es) and they clean it up by exterminating them and wiping the debacle from their records.

Human beings would do the same thing. So, we don't really have a point of contention in that.

imo the pegasus lanteans were much worse than the milkyway ancients, who are fine for the most part except for the technology thing.

They were the same people, different generation.

[asdf1239]

John Sheppard and Epiphany. Just because Ancients lived in an enlightened environment doesn't mean humans can't become as enlightened as they.

ancients were naturally enlightened at that time. they were being born enlightened, while humans need to a)evolve to that point or b)use ancient devices to be enlightened.

What you believe has nothing to do with this.

but it is, when it's based upon confirmed canon and may also be confirmed canon that i have not looked up yet. in contrast to "ignored all my points", yours was actually a pathetic attempt at evasion.

The fact remains, the Ancients can't be held responsible for each and every potential civilization.

they can't forsee that a warlike civilization -any such civilization, not "each and every potential civlization"- would use their left over technology as a weapon? sir, your "point" is also flawed. try again.

Playing God? Human beings, sci-fi or not, have no ability to critize others about playing God. Each and every time you interfere with the natural order of things, you are playing God. Nagasaki and Hiroshima = Playing God. Iraq War = Playing God. When they give life "potential", they were playing God, yes. I'm so sorry to burst your bubble, but we all play God with each other.

i would suggest reading my post again, but i think i'll help you out here instead.

the lanteans however were playing god with an entire galaxy and had a responsibility to make sure they didn't screw it up. "it happens" is not a valid excuse when you are manipulating life on that scale and one mistake could cause the deaths of entire populations.
and you cannot deny that what the lanteans did to the asurans was genocide. the asurans were sentient at that point, it doesn't really matter that they evolved from nanites. genociding humans is not alright because they evolved from nonsentient single celled organisms. it only makes it worse that the asurans were designed as a weapon, the lanteans started the mess(es) and they clean it up by exterminating them and wiping the debacle from their records.

the lanteans however were playing god with an entire galaxy and had a responsibility to make sure they didn't screw it up. "it happens" is not a valid excuse when you are manipulating life on that scale and one mistake could cause the deaths of entire populations.
and you cannot deny that what the lanteans did to the asurans was genocide. the asurans were sentient at that point, it doesn't really matter that they evolved from nanites. genociding humans is not alright because they evolved from nonsentient single celled organisms.

the lanteans however were playing god with an entire galaxy and had a responsibility to make sure they didn't screw it up. "it happens" is not a valid excuse when you are manipulating life on that scale and one mistake could cause the deaths of entire populations.

the lanteans however were playing god with an entire galaxy

entire galaxy

they tried to play god with a galaxy and failed irresponsibly, screwing over its inhabitants that they put there in the first place. they are at fault for this.

Human beings would do the same thing. So, we don't really have a point of contention in that.

that is absolutely irrelevant. they were not human beings. being "enlightened", they are supposed to have a better sense of judgement than human beings. comparing them to human beings accomplishes nothing. human beings are not the top of the moral scale for other species to be compared with anyway in stargate and real life.

They were the same people, different generation.

and? their actions were different.

[lordofseas]

ancients were naturally enlightened at that time. they were being born enlightened, while humans need to a)evolve to that point or b)use ancient devices to be enlightened.

I advise you to re-read what you just typed. Ancients were born enlightened? Good God, what, they came out of the womb, and became philosophers? Sheppard wasn't evolving, nor was he using an Ancient device. He was in an environment that promoted enlightenment. Currently, our society doesn't do that.

but it is, when it's based upon confirmed canon and may also be confirmed canon that i have not looked up yet. in contrast to "ignored all my points", yours was actually a pathetic attempt at evasion.

Well then, going back to your point, they can't be held responsible for another civilization's choices. If I had a kid, and that kid grows up, and kills someone out of jealousy, is it my fault? No! It's their fault for making that stupid choice. You can't go back and point at the parents for every single problem that the child creates. Sooner or later, the kid has to take responsibility.

[quote[they can't forsee that a warlike civilization -any such civilization, not "each and every potential civlization"- would use their left over technology as a weapon? sir, your "point" is also flawed. try again. [/quote]

Choices. It was their choice to use those weapons. If I can't get any more blatant:

CHOICES!

i would suggest reading my post again, but i think i'll help you out here instead.

they tried to play god with a galaxy and failed irresponsibly, screwing over its inhabitants that they put there in the first place. they are at fault for this.

No. They did their best. Maybe their best wasn't good enough, but in the same situation, we would have fared much worse.

that is absolutely irrelevant. they were not human beings. being "enlightened", they are supposed to have a better sense of judgement than human beings. comparing them to human beings accomplishes nothing. human beings are not the top of the moral scale for other species to be compared with anyway in stargate and real life.

You are putting the Ancients on too high of a pedestal. Use logic. They were not perfect. They are not going to make the perfect decisions. Their "enlightenment" came to them after they knew the war was lost, and they started working towards Ascension.

and? their actions were different.

Because their situations were different.