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GateWorld
May 2nd, 2010, 02:10 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/universe/s1/119.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/universe/graphics/119.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">UNIVERSE SEASON ONE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/universe/s1/119.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none">INCURSION, PART 1</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 119</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
The Lucian Alliance manages to board Destiny, taking several crewmembers hostage in a bid to wrestle control the ship.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/universe/s1/119.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
June 4th, 2010, 07:01 PM
Well I just gotta say this was a damn good episode.

Pharaoh Atem
June 4th, 2010, 07:01 PM
Franklin/destiny fried that guy :D

s09119
June 4th, 2010, 07:02 PM
I can't decide on a star rating for this one, but it's definitely gonna be pretty high. That was one wild ride...

Rudy Pena
June 4th, 2010, 07:03 PM
I agree, Its a damm fine one.

And damm, where did the L.A. learn those tatics at???????? That was freak prefect.

Takamuri
June 4th, 2010, 07:03 PM
I don't know if it was Franklin- Rush was confused why the ship wasn't jumping to FTL, and from what we know that occurs when in the proximity of gravity distortions. They could be near something that is penetrating the failing shield in places.

Shan Bruce Lee
June 4th, 2010, 07:03 PM
I can't decide on a star rating for this one, but it's definitely gonna be pretty high. That was one wild ride...

It's all 5 stars from me.

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
June 4th, 2010, 07:04 PM
i have a question when O'Neill Said "maybe i should be there" when he was talking to young do you think the writers were giving us a vague hint at what might happen in the future?

s09119
June 4th, 2010, 07:06 PM
i have a question when O'Neill Said "maybe i should be there" when he was talking to young do you think the writers were giving us a vague hint at what might happen in the future?

No, O'Neill was just telling him to get back to work or he may be replaced. There are dozens of lives at stake now, the bar's been raised. If Young can't repel this invasion, the SGC will send someone who can.

TheRandomOne
June 4th, 2010, 07:07 PM
No, O'Neill was just telling him to get back to work or he may be replaced. There are dozens of lives at stake now, the bar's been raised. If Young can't repel this invasion, the SGC will send someone who can.

But I don't think O'Neill would blow up another planet just to gate to the Destiny

s09119
June 4th, 2010, 07:08 PM
But I don't think O'Neill would blow up another planet just to gate to the Destiny

I meant via the stones, not physically send someone else xD

Rudy Pena
June 4th, 2010, 07:08 PM
No, O'Neill was just telling him to get back to work or he may be replaced. There are dozens of lives at stake now, the bar's been raised. If Young can't repel this invasion, the SGC will send someone who can.

Well Col Telford is there now..... or maybe they Scott to Captain, since we still dont have a way to sent troops and supplies over there.

Sapphire_Jade
June 4th, 2010, 07:08 PM
I absolutely loved this episode!! I can't wait for the season finale next week!!! I think it was either Destiny or Franklin who chard that guy! Or it could be both Franklin could be apart of Destiny's AI now!

Loheat
June 4th, 2010, 07:09 PM
I thought it was just a hole in the shield and that was simply unblocked sunlight frying that guy. Or maybe somehow the shields magnified it somehow

Hurricane47
June 4th, 2010, 07:17 PM
I don't think that O'neill will be on the ship permanently, not due to the story, but due to the fact RDA's personal life. Although I do enjoy seeing Jack and his character (too funny)

Can't wait for the ep. next week. I don't think that sunlight could turn you to ashes in a matter of seconds, so I think there was something else that caused the dude to fry, but IDK.

kthomassg
June 4th, 2010, 07:22 PM
Great show tonight, but I do hate 2 parters!!!! AH, the waiting!!!!!!

prattmic
June 4th, 2010, 07:25 PM
I do hate 2 parters!!!! AH, the waiting!!!!!!

Actually, it's a three-parter. Episode 201 is "Intervention (Part 3)".

randomking
June 4th, 2010, 07:26 PM
i get how he did not know if it was rush or (the other guy) that came thru the gate....but 1-2 losses to keep destiny is well worth it...speshly seeing as how a lot of the nerds know how to control destiny now...i don't get y he risked it...


p.s i get its meant to be a drama cliff hanger but relay!

Sapphire_Jade
June 4th, 2010, 07:26 PM
I thought it was just a hole in the shield and that was simply unblocked sunlight frying that guy. Or maybe somehow the shields magnified it somehow

That may be possible but that makes it sound like a fluke. I think something made the shield fail and char that guy.

themeatcleaver
June 4th, 2010, 07:26 PM
flippin' excellent! i'm in the DestiFranklin camp that thinks he fried that guy with the shield that was exposed. Notice telford didn't get fried when he came through?

Also, where do you suppose the LA got the keys to the doors on destiny? and more importantly, will one hooked up to Rush's console unlock it for them?

Cant wait to see where Eli and Chloe go, it's gotta be awesome whereever it is!

Loheat
June 4th, 2010, 07:27 PM
It would have been nice if he did that and they all just put on gas masks and were like what now fool

s09119
June 4th, 2010, 07:28 PM
i get how he did not know if it was rush or (the other guy) that came thru the gate....but 1-2 losses to keep destiny is well worth it...speshly seeing as how a lot of the nerds know how to control destiny now...i don't get y he risked it...


p.s i get its meant to be a drama cliff hanger but relay!

He thought it was still Rush in there, and if he died, their odds of ever gaining complete control over the ship (or any number of scientific or technical problems) would plummet. He's too valuable to just kill without at least making an attempt to rescue him.

Rudy Pena
June 4th, 2010, 07:28 PM
That may be possible but that makes it sound like a fluke. I think something made the shield fail and char that guy.

Then the air would have been sucked out of the corridor, not turn a guy into ashes.

Sairnath
June 4th, 2010, 07:30 PM
While I'm still not onbaord with liking SGU as a Stargate series, the second half of the season has been much better. This Episode rates highly among them.

My only problems were with the battle. For some reason many Civilians were kept in close proximity to the gateroom and were captured. Why on Earth (or Destiny) would they have been there? They should have been gathered at the farthest point away possible.

Secondly, and this is only a nit-pick, you had two heavily armed forces firing semi-automatic weapons throughout multiple corriders at near point-blank range and the worst of it was a few severly wounded?
I believe this rates right up there with the shooting abilities of "The A-Team"


Still I did thoroughly enjoy this episode and will be watching next week.

Jakerod
June 4th, 2010, 07:30 PM
I like how Young just lost the most easily defend-able position in the history of warfare. There are very very few things that would've made that room easier to defend.

I don't get why he didn't press the button, let them all fall unconscious, open the doors, toss some flashbangs in or something and then arrest all of them. It was a good episode though I just wish they would've defended it properly and then lost control due to some unforeseen circumstance.

FoX-1028
June 4th, 2010, 07:31 PM
Absolutely an awesome episode, like all SG season finales!
10/10
next week one is gonna be awesome too, too bad i already spoilered myself hard :(

prattmic
June 4th, 2010, 07:32 PM
He thought it was still Rush in there

If the gate didn't sever the connection, why couldn't they just do that? It took Telford well over a minute to pass out, that would be plenty of time to pull the stone off.

s09119
June 4th, 2010, 07:36 PM
If the gate didn't sever the connection, why couldn't they just do that? It took Telford well over a minute to pass out, that would be plenty of time to pull the stone off.

True. Personally, I would have sucked out enough to knock them all out, then go in and finish them off. But Young didn't want to risk killing Rush in the process or having him shot by people still coming through when they realized what was happening.

Specter177
June 4th, 2010, 07:38 PM
What I want to know is where they got those nifty lock picks.

Sapphire_Jade
June 4th, 2010, 07:40 PM
Then the air would have been sucked out of the corridor, not turn a guy into ashes.

well the post that i replied to mentioned that they though that there was a whole in the shield that let in sunlight or the shield magnified it somehow. I was just saying that it was too convenient that it happened when the guy was going to open the door and attack the team. I think something made that happen.

majorsal
June 4th, 2010, 07:42 PM
can someone tell me what sam's part(s) were in this ep?

the fifth man
June 4th, 2010, 07:45 PM
well the post that i replied to mentioned that they though that there was a whole in the shield that let in sunlight or the shield magnified it somehow. I was just saying that it was too convenient that it happened when the guy was going to open the door and attack the team. I think something made that happen.

That could be the case. We shall see.

Overall, this was a great episode. I really can't wait to see how this concludes, or leaves us hanging, next week.

EvenstarSRV
June 4th, 2010, 07:46 PM
Very good episode and a nice follow-up to Subversion. The building tension when Young allowed Telford to die was well done, even reminded me a bit of the ending of Sanctuary's Requiem. I liked Young in general taking charge of defending Destiny and its people, including the momentary doubts during his scene with Jack. It was nice to see Sam and the Hammond again, and the call she had to make by leaving the two 302s behind and Jack acknowledging that tough decision was a nice moment between the two characters.

The LA's tactics and successes on the Destiny were also well done, though it felt a little rushed that they with Rush were able to accomplish so quickly what took the people at Icarus so long to do, though I suppose it was a plot necessity to get them on the Destiny. And I'm really digging the Kiva character, she reminds me of some of my favorite menacing Stargate villains like Ba'al (before he was cloned).

The only parts that kinda dragged a bit for me was the stuff with Eli and Chloe, it was nice character stuff but I felt it sapped some of the tension being built in the stand-off on the rest of ship.

Still overall good stuff, I'm looking forward to part 2. :)

jelgate
June 4th, 2010, 07:46 PM
can someone tell me what sam's part(s) were in this ep?

No. You must watch the whole episode to find out:P

ladyjanus
June 4th, 2010, 07:48 PM
Good episode, can't wait for next week...

One thing bothered me — Carter's a blonde, FCOL. Even if AT didn't want to change her color for all of two minutes worth of airtime, couldn't they pop for a CG work and giver her a few highlight at least?

majorsal
June 4th, 2010, 07:48 PM
No. You must watch the whole episode to find out:P

well then, i'm out of luck. :p

oh wait, some sam fans will show me a vid of her time there. :D

major davis
June 4th, 2010, 07:48 PM
Dang this was a good ep... Much better in English... Lol

randomking
June 4th, 2010, 07:53 PM
True. Personally, I would have sucked out enough to knock them all out, then go in and finish them off. But Young didn't want to risk killing Rush in the process or having him shot by people still coming through when they realized what was happening.

thats what i thought they would have done...true some of them would have died some would have lived but still...

and realy...were are the poison darts at this point :P

s09119
June 4th, 2010, 07:54 PM
I like how Young just lost the most easily defend-able position in the history of warfare. There are very very few things that would've made that room easier to defend.

I don't get why he didn't press the button, let them all fall unconscious, open the doors, toss some flashbangs in or something and then arrest all of them. It was a good episode though I just wish they would've defended it properly and then lost control due to some unforeseen circumstance.

I thought about it and you're right. It was actually fairly easy to win... position all the soldiers in the gate room, let them fly through, and shoot them as they land. That or disarm them as they do if you want to stay civil about this.

That said, they had no idea what was coming their way, so from Young's perspective, this may have been the wiser option.

Pharaoh Atem
June 4th, 2010, 07:56 PM
I thought about it and you're right. It was actually fairly easy to win... position all the soldiers in the gate room, let them fly through, and shoot them as they land. That or disarm them as they do if you want to stay civil about this.

That said, they had no idea what was coming their way, so from Young's perspective, this may have been the wiser option.

just put greer in front of the gate and let him beat the **** out of everyone that comes out fo it :D

Sapphire_Jade
June 4th, 2010, 07:56 PM
about 5 more min until Incrusion is on again! i am so watching it over again!

the fifth man
June 4th, 2010, 07:58 PM
about 5 more min until Incrusion is on again! i am so watching it over again!

Same here! I usually do that with every episode.

Orion Antreas
June 4th, 2010, 07:58 PM
Good episode, can't wait for next week...

One thing bothered me — Carter's a blonde, FCOL. Even if AT didn't want to change her color for all of two minutes worth of airtime, couldn't they pop for a CG work and giver her a few highlight at least?

I guess a character wanting to dye their hair is too far fetched, no? :P

majorsal
June 4th, 2010, 08:00 PM
I guess a character wanting to dye their hair is too far fetched, no? :P

what color is it? :S

ONeill4tW
June 4th, 2010, 08:02 PM
well the post that i replied to mentioned that they though that there was a whole in the shield that let in sunlight or the shield magnified it somehow. I was just saying that it was too convenient that it happened when the guy was going to open the door and attack the team. I think something made that happen.

Why does everyone assume that Destiny dropped out of FTL in a star system? I saw no star, no star was mentioned. A star system would be something important to mention wouldn't you think?

So that leaves only the Destiny/Franklin theory or a possible Ascended is aboard and defending the ship.

jelgate
June 4th, 2010, 08:03 PM
what color is it? :S

It looks more like her Magnus color

majorsal
June 4th, 2010, 08:06 PM
It looks more like her Magnus color

is it the same color as her other sgu appearance (first ep i think)?

CCA
June 4th, 2010, 08:06 PM
I didn't get to see it this is my first viewing, weeeee

Gatebsg
June 4th, 2010, 08:07 PM
10/10 episode Really interested in how much more the alliance knows about ship

s09119
June 4th, 2010, 08:09 PM
Why does everyone assume that Destiny dropped out of FTL in a star system? I saw no star, no star was mentioned. A star system would be something important to mention wouldn't you think?

So that leaves only the Destiny/Franklin theory or a possible Ascended is aboard and defending the ship.

Or maybe they just didn't mention it because they always drop out in a star system and there were more important things to do at the time?

Shan Bruce Lee
June 4th, 2010, 08:10 PM
Very good episode and a nice follow-up to Subversion. The building tension when Young allowed Telford to die was well done, even reminded me a bit of the ending of Sanctuary's Requiem. I liked Young in general taking charge of defending Destiny and its people, including the momentary doubts during his scene with Jack. It was nice to see Sam and the Hammond again, and the call she had to make by leaving the two 302s behind and Jack acknowledging that tough decision was a nice moment between the two characters.

The LA's tactics and successes on the Destiny were also well done, though it felt a little rushed that they with Rush were able to accomplish so quickly what took the people at Icarus so long to do, though I suppose it was a plot necessity to get them on the Destiny. And I'm really digging the Kiva character, she reminds me of some of my favorite menacing Stargate villains like Ba'al (before he was cloned).

The only parts that kinda dragged a bit for me was the stuff with Eli and Chloe, it was nice character stuff but I felt it sapped some of the tension being built in the stand-off on the rest of ship.

Still overall good stuff, I'm looking forward to part 2. :)

They had been working on it already. And besides, Rush knew from experience what they needed to do so it was easier the second time.

Sapphire_Jade
June 4th, 2010, 08:11 PM
Why does everyone assume that Destiny dropped out of FTL in a star system? I saw no star, no star was mentioned. A star system would be something important to mention wouldn't you think?

So that leaves only the Destiny/Franklin theory or a possible Ascended is aboard and defending the ship.

On the Ascended being theory I don't think that could be it because we already know that the Ascended Ancients don't like to interfere.

Gatebsg
June 4th, 2010, 08:12 PM
Hmm just remembered something Kiva knew the kino was a camera geez these Lucian people know a lot even small details.

Shan Bruce Lee
June 4th, 2010, 08:12 PM
Or maybe they just didn't mention it because they always drop out in a star system and there were more important things to do at the time?

They dropped out because the LA dialed in.

Spimman
June 4th, 2010, 08:13 PM
Wow, what a great episode.

Telford revealed (or so we believe) - that was a really awesome twist!

Eli and Chloe - I wonder what they'll end up stumbling upon as the wonder the unexplored areas of Destiny

LA - These guys are pretty hardcore

Home Team - We were not very well prepared, surprise surprise

TJ - :(

Pharaoh Atem
June 4th, 2010, 08:16 PM
Hmm just remembered something Kiva knew the kino was a camera geez these Lucian people know a lot even small details.

which was explained in "subversion"

DigiFluid
June 4th, 2010, 08:17 PM
This was a really fantastic episode. Easily one of my favourites of the show so far, right up there with Time. Can't wait to watch it again!

DigiFluid
June 4th, 2010, 08:18 PM
Hmm just remembered something Kiva knew the kino was a camera geez these Lucian people know a lot even small details.

which was explained in "subversion"
Was it?

Not snarking, I just really don't remember Kinos coming up (two weeks between episodes does that to me). When was it mentioned in Subversion?

Loheat
June 4th, 2010, 08:20 PM
I thought about it and you're right. It was actually fairly easy to win... position all the soldiers in the gate room, let them fly through, and shoot them as they land. That or disarm them as they do if you want to stay civil about this.

That said, they had no idea what was coming their way, so from Young's perspective, this may have been the wiser option.
Yeah, if the first two guys got mowed down then they woulda threw the flashbangs throught the gate. Or they could have sent through a few grenades when it first opened up

jelgate
June 4th, 2010, 08:23 PM
Jelgate's Two Cents
Anyone who writes reviews about shows will say while its rewarding and a fun thing to do but at the same time it can be a mentally exhausting task. So I was kind of glad that I got Memorial weekend off to relax before diving into Incursion. But at the same time I was hoping the rest would bring one jaw dropping of a season finale. And if part two is anything like Incursion part I then I say it will be a high note for Universe. Yes it doesn’t have that many character moments and is mostly action orientated but I think the action has an emotional impact behind it making the episode that more interesting to watch. Let’s start at Telford’s death, shall we?

I saw so much debate at what Young did at the end of Subversion and yes hindsight is 20/20 as they say but given the final results we have from the venting of the atmosphere of Telford’s room I think Young made the right choice. Looking at the results that long term no one is hurt and they gained their intel on the Lucian Alliance coming for Destiny it seems that the torture was justified. I’m not saying that it’s right but just that it gagged positive results in the protection of Destiny

Speaking of Young’s questionable act I liked seeing him butt heads with Scott. Here is a person who blindly followed Young’s order irregardless of how Scott felt about them. I liked seeing the young lieutenant finally reaching. It shows the more human side of him.

Now to the actual fight of the episode. There is not a whole lot to react to because it’s self-explanatory. I will say that I liked the pace of Young over the intercom and showing the various personnel taking their position through out Destiny. Although I do have to say the fight on the Milky Way end was somewhat lacking. It seemed the writer of this episode was in a rush to get the Lucian Alliance to Destiny he did not want to show the fighting as the 9th chevron was dialed.

What I found interesting was the fact Young didn’t vent the atmosphere in the Gate room when he found out that Rush was now with them. I don’t know. Maybe it points that he doesn’t hate Rush as much as he did in Justice. But the fact that Young wasn’t willing to sacrifice Rush to save the rest on Destiny clearly means something in the terms of characterization of Young. Their has to be a reason that he would risk all the lives on the Destiny for one man. Something Young would have done a few episodes ago. I’m just not sure what it is yet.

The actually fighting and shooting was so fast paced on Destiny. Coupled on how dark the ship was I could barely tell who was who. It was hard for me to tell who was shooting who as Earth and the Alliance fought for control of the ship. For example I did not know Chloe was shot until after the fighting was over and Eli had sent them clear across the ship in that vertical elevator. Speaking about Chloe and Eli, does that B plot have any purpose? Yes I understand Chloe is critically injured and Eli has to get her back to the center of the ship. But what is the whole point of that? It seems like it will have little impact or relevance to the rest of story. It just feels like some added time was needed.

I think we finally found a use for that *censored words Wray. She is good at negotiating and stalling for time so Young and the rest of the military can provide another counterstrike. Although her comment about civilians having control in out society was really cold. It sounds like she was trying to preach to Young again about her rights. As for the other side of the negotiation just like the last episode Kiva has this feel of being cold and ruthless. I got chill when she ordered TJ to patch up one of her men. One can only imagine what she will do if TJ fails. It kind of reminds me what Peter DeLuise said in a SG1 DVD special feature. Its one thing to say you are evil. It’s a lot more frightening to act and show your evil. I think Kiva personifies the latter.

Call me an optimist but I think that Telford is back on our side with the way he allowed those Lucian Alliance soldier fall into that trap in one of the Destiny corridors and showed Young and the crew where the group was going. I’m probably too hopeful but would Kiva be in on this turning of Telford. It just does not make logical sense. Speaking of logical sense there are quite few mysteries aboard Destiny. I want to know what on Destiny is causing people to burn into ashes. That ability was never seen in past episodes. I am baffled and curious of why that is happening. But I bet you it has something to do with the ship not jumping into FTL.

And the climax for the episode felt very anti-climatic which seems to be an exact opposite from the last episodes end. Their was tension last time right before the end credits. This time Young just admits Rush is right and that sacrifices will need to be implemented for them to retake Destiny. It just seems to lack the punch to get viewers interested next week. Don’t get me wrong the episode was great but their was little tension for the ending

Pharaoh Atem
June 4th, 2010, 08:23 PM
Was it?

Not snarking, I just really don't remember Kinos coming up (two weeks between episodes does that to me). When was it mentioned in Subversion?

we know telford supplied the LA with information. you can't tell me the kino tech didn't come up in those convo's. thugs like the LA would benefit from flying camera's

DigiFluid
June 4th, 2010, 08:23 PM
Yeah, if the first two guys got mowed down then they woulda threw the flashbangs throught the gate. Or they could have sent through a few grenades when it first opened up
But they didn't send any grenades through....and didn't communicate back to the Lucian Icarus planet either. s09's got a good point, they could've controlled the situation better than they did.

On a loosely related note: did anyone else howl with laugher at the guy who got scorched by the gate's steam blow-off? I don't know what it was about that scene, but I just couldn't help myself :D

jelgate
June 4th, 2010, 08:23 PM
Was it?

Not snarking, I just really don't remember Kinos coming up (two weeks between episodes does that to me). When was it mentioned in Subversion?

She knew about communication stone and a good part of Destiny's personnel. I think her knowing about KINOs is a good guess

BadOnion
June 4th, 2010, 08:28 PM
Yeah, if the first two guys got mowed down then they woulda threw the flashbangs throught the gate. Or they could have sent through a few grenades when it first opened up

How would they have known?

themeatcleaver
June 4th, 2010, 08:32 PM
But they didn't send any grenades through....and didn't communicate back to the Lucian Icarus planet either. s09's got a good point, they could've controlled the situation better than they did.

On a loosely related note: did anyone else howl with laugher at the guy who got scorched by the gate's steam blow-off? I don't know what it was about that scene, but I just couldn't help myself :D

I did, i actually yelled out "that was awesome!"

s09119
June 4th, 2010, 08:32 PM
On a loosely related note: did anyone else howl with laugher at the guy who got scorched by the gate's steam blow-off? I don't know what it was about that scene, but I just couldn't help myself :D

I thought it was absolutely hysterical. We haven't seen the steam in a while, and it was a nice reminder of how primitive these stargates are... and what they can do to you if you're not paying attention :P

Joachim
June 4th, 2010, 08:33 PM
People keep saying that they should have vented the atmosphere - but, honestly, the only way that could have worked was if they had done so prior to the Lucian Alliance even arriving. They would have likely been able to open the doors before it really had any effect on them.

Young also didn't know if they would be throwing in any explosives. Leaving people in the gateroom would've been a disaster.

General Jumper One
June 4th, 2010, 08:34 PM
How did they get the door opener anyway

BadOnion
June 4th, 2010, 08:34 PM
People keep saying that they should have vented the atmosphere - but, honestly, the only way that could have worked was if they had done so prior to the Lucian Alliance even arriving. They would have likely been able to open the doors before it really had any effect on them.

Good point.

jelgate
June 4th, 2010, 08:35 PM
Who did they get the door opener anyway
Anicents Wal-Mart

Pharaoh Atem
June 4th, 2010, 08:36 PM
Who did they get the door opener anyway

forwarding the story.com

EvenstarSRV
June 4th, 2010, 08:42 PM
Good episode, can't wait for next week...

One thing bothered me — Carter's a blonde, FCOL. Even if AT didn't want to change her color for all of two minutes worth of airtime, couldn't they pop for a CG work and giver her a few highlight at least?

Seems a bit silly to me to spend VFX money on something as minor as hair color.


is it the same color as her other sgu appearance (first ep i think)?

It's a bit darker, which makes sense since AT didn't have as much time to let it lighten up like she did for Air part 1.


They had been working on it already. And besides, Rush knew from experience what they needed to do so it was easier the second time.

In Subversion Rush says it could take him the rest of his life, and then within a few days including some time spent unconscious due to Telford 'dying' and with limited equipment compared to Icarus, he gets it to work. Seemed a bit fast IMHO. *shrugs*

Pharaoh Atem
June 4th, 2010, 08:46 PM
and this ep proved eli hasn't lost much weight. and that "you are here" t-shirt has to go.

s09119
June 4th, 2010, 08:48 PM
In Subversion Rush says it could take him the rest of his life, and then within a few days including some time spent unconscious due to Telford 'dying' and with limited equipment compared to Icarus, he gets it to work. Seemed a bit fast IMHO. *shrugs*

He was probably bluffing before hoping to stall for more time. He already knows how to do it anyway.

DigiFluid
June 4th, 2010, 08:50 PM
and this ep proved eli hasn't lost much weight. and that "you are here" t-shirt has to go.
Yeah, that shot of him getting into the 'elevator' was a serious close-up on moobage.

Sapphire_Jade
June 4th, 2010, 08:50 PM
In Subversion Rush says it could take him the rest of his life, and then within a few days including some time spent unconscious due to Telford 'dying' and with limited equipment compared to Icarus, he gets it to work. Seemed a bit fast IMHO. *shrugs*

He was bluffing Rush even said so is Subversion after Kiva killed the scientist.

ONeill4tW
June 4th, 2010, 08:51 PM
Or maybe they just didn't mention it because they always drop out in a star system and there were more important things to do at the time?

Yes, when Destiny's programmed route makes a planned stop they drop out near or in a star system. This was not a planned stop, therefore they are most likely no where near a star.


On the Ascended being theory I don't think that could be it because we already know that the Ascended Ancients don't like to interfere.

They interfere plenty of times. They just do it subtlety or in disguise. They just aren't allowed to do it directly, in person, etc.


Hmm just remembered something Kiva knew the kino was a camera geez these Lucian people know a lot even small details.

They know a lot because of Telford.


Anicents Wal-Mart

Where is that? I want to shop there! :cameron:


In Subversion Rush says it could take him the rest of his life, and then within a few days including some time spent unconscious due to Telford 'dying' and with limited equipment compared to Icarus, he gets it to work. Seemed a bit fast IMHO. *shrugs*

He was stalling. Even said so.

I did like the fact that they showed what happens when someone dies in the wrong body via the communication stones. Twas interesting. Does this mean you get to permanently inhabit someone else's body if your body is gone?

jelgate
June 4th, 2010, 08:55 PM
In Subversion Rush says it could take him the rest of his life, and then within a few days including some time spent unconscious due to Telford 'dying' and with limited equipment compared to Icarus, he gets it to work. Seemed a bit fast IMHO. *shrugs*

Rush was exagerrating to emphasis the difficulty of it.

s09119
June 4th, 2010, 08:59 PM
Yes, when Destiny's programmed route makes a planned stop they drop out near or in a star system. This was not a planned stop, therefore they are most likely no where near a star.

Touche. My best guess is still a weird star, but it really could be anything.

Commander Zelix
June 4th, 2010, 09:01 PM
Very good episode.

Sometime I don't like all-action episode because I like action episode which still have a good story. For example, The Island movie is not all action, it has action but also an interesting story about a perfect society of the future, then a society with a dark secret, then 2 adult-children in a modern society, then clone vs clone. For example, I didn't rate the Atlantis episode The Queen very high. It was a too basic get in "the base", save someone, get out episode.

Incursion part 1 was a good action episode. With good suspense and eventful enough. Thus far I like the Kiva character and LA turn out much better that I thought they would be. I like O'Neill in this episode even if he was more serious. Nice touch at making Carter loose 2 fighters in the planet explosion. Then having Young face his bad decision regarding saving Telford/Rush life at the risk at loosing the ship at indeed the most easily defendable position in military history. LOL

I have no idea what killed that LA soldier, it must be related to why the Destiny didn't start the countdown obviously. I don't think, it's as simple as a sun radiation, but it could be possible. I hope it's something more (aliens, strange planet, etc). Adding a layer to the storyline (possibly having the LA and Destiny crew fight a common problem/enemy).

I'll give it 7.5 or 8 on 10.

boo1234
June 4th, 2010, 09:02 PM
couldn't they have vented the gate room till everyone passed out, retrieve telford, then vent it for good? Kind of like in the beginning

hedwig
June 4th, 2010, 09:02 PM
Why does everyone assume that Destiny dropped out of FTL in a star system? I saw no star, no star was mentioned. A star system would be something important to mention wouldn't you think?

So that leaves only the Destiny/Franklin theory or a possible Ascended is aboard and defending the ship.

Exactly. Destiny dropped out of FTL when the LA dialed the 9th Chevron. It didn't drop out of FTL near any stars.

Commander Zelix
June 4th, 2010, 09:06 PM
couldn't they have vented the gate room till everyone passed out, retrieve telford, then vent it for good? Kind of like in the beginning
I don't think you're the only one who thought of that during the episode. That's what I thought too.

Sapphire_Jade
June 4th, 2010, 09:18 PM
couldn't they have vented the gate room till everyone passed out, retrieve telford, then vent it for good? Kind of like in the beginning

I thought the same thing too. But that wouldn't make a very good show would it? If the bad guys were taken out in the 1st 5 min of the show.

Shan Bruce Lee
June 4th, 2010, 09:29 PM
Hmm just remembered something Kiva knew the kino was a camera geez these Lucian people know a lot even small details.

She knew there was something flying around. I don't know if she knew it had a camera in it.

Shan Bruce Lee
June 4th, 2010, 09:39 PM
In Subversion Rush says it could take him the rest of his life, and then within a few days including some time spent unconscious due to Telford 'dying' and with limited equipment compared to Icarus, he gets it to work. Seemed a bit fast IMHO. *shrugs*

But he was giving them the run-around the whole time until Kiva had the other scientist killed.



I did like the fact that they showed what happens when someone dies in the wrong body via the communication stones. Twas interesting. Does this mean you get to permanently inhabit someone else's body if your body is gone?

There was the scene where Kiva was explaining to Rush why his hand was cut - presumably, he either died too or was at least unconscious while Telford was dead.

Eternal Density
June 4th, 2010, 09:46 PM
Great ep, and WHOA what is going in with Destiny?

I expected that planet would blow up too (they're not about to let Destiny have a supply line, not for a few seasons at least) and I also caught on that Young had to be temporarily killing Telford to reverse the brainwashing :D

Cool to see some other parts of Destiny in the sideplot with Eli and Chloe.

ONeill4tW
June 4th, 2010, 09:52 PM
I just rewatched the episode again and Brody mentioned that there was an overload but no one knows what caused it.

I'm thinking that when the Icarus II planet blew up, a power surge occurred through the stargate which then went into the systems on board Destiny. When the "Unknown" fried that Lucian, it finally overloaded the systems and caused the ship wide malfunction.

I remember that when the planet did blow up all the lights and everything flickered for a brief moment, someone got steamed to death (or really badly) and Kiva was demanding to know what happened to the Stargate.

Btw, Destiny is 2, Lucian Alliance 0 so far. Lol. First guy gets steamed and the second guy gets fried.

Kaiphantom
June 4th, 2010, 09:52 PM
The premise of this episode was good, but it relied on way too many wallbangers for things to happen as they did and get the LA onto the ship.

#1. Rush, you idiot. You could have said you couldn't dial Destiny, or dialed another address. I know he wants to live and the TPTB want to get the LA onto the ship, and Rush probably figured Young could handle it, which leads to...

#2. As other people have noted, Young had the superior position. They know people come flying in and land on the ground. Knock them out as they come in and take their weapons! Or vent the atmosphere! You're not gonna kill anyone, because the average human can be revived 5 minutes after being unable to breathe, with no brain damage. 5 MINUTES! That's more than enough time to round up the weapons and lock people in rooms. Rush, even if he was still in Telford's body, WAS IN NO DANGER. In fact, they should have vented the atmosphere the moment the first LA person came through.

Young is officially an idiot, too. Rush is right; even if they have hostages, vent the atmosphere. By the time they notice, they'll be starting to pass out. Lose people, or lose the entire ship; it's not a hard choice.

ARGH!

Okay, that's out of my system. Much to my disgust, I actually liked the Eli/Chloe scenes; and he's proving once again that he is WAY too good for her. In her mind, she has the stud for sex, and she's got a doormat for everything else. She will learn nothing unless they both drop her.

Young, once again, was another kind of idiot for not telling people what he was doing to Telford; that he wasn't going to kill him, and instead was going to get him near-death to break the brainwashing. Of course, that would ruin the whole suspense factor at the start of the episode, but it was stupid suspense. At the least, they could have had it where Young told everyone earlier, and they were just acting. But as Scott tried to tell him, Young should not be a dictator; he should talk to his people so they are more behind him, otherwise he loses the respect of people under his command.... not a good thing.

Wray's negotiation was good, however, once it got to that point. But I really think someone should have said "Congratulations LA, you've landed on this rust bucket that could give out at any time, and we're the only ones with food and water. None of us are ever going home, so if we're going to survive, we're going to have to learn to work together."

As I said, a lot of wallbangers. And knowing what I do about the next episode, there are some wallbangers there, too. The rest of the season has been decent; not as good as SG-1 and SGA, but decent. I'll watch season 2, but they really need to work to keep me aboard. No more wallbangers, and tone down the use of the loud, annoying music.

Commander Zelix
June 4th, 2010, 10:06 PM
#2. As other people have noted, Young had the superior position. They know people come flying in and land on the ground. Knock them out as they come in and take their weapons! Or vent the atmosphere! You're not gonna kill anyone, because the average human can be revived 5 minutes after being unable to breathe, with no brain damage. 5 (2) MINUTES! That's more than enough time to round up the weapons and lock people in rooms. Rush, even if he was still in Telford's body, WAS IN NO DANGER. In fact, they should have vented the atmosphere the moment the first LA person came through.

Yes, and how the gate room is positioned they are like in the first floor position with an higher floor all around the gate room (like some kind of dancing club). Probably one of the easiest defendable position military history. But it's not something that bothered me THAT much as it was needed to move the story. It would have been a bit nicer if the LA had some kind of knock down everybody on the ship for 5 minutes sonar or some kind of big surprise of that type. Thus moving the story forward but still keeping Young as a good military strategist. But I've seen much worse in other shows or movies.

senilegreen
June 4th, 2010, 10:20 PM
While I appreciate the progress in the story-line, a couple of things still jump out for being, well, idiotic.

First is the reason Kiva gives for wanting to be on Destiny. Sorry, but unless the writers reveal a secret reason that Kiva is holding back, her statement about Destiny just doesn't make sense. The LA are mercenaries and terrorists, and perhaps a rebel government on certain planets. They're just not the type to want to "boldly go where no man has gone before."

Second is Eli. The writers are making him out to be 14 years old. Really, no matter how developmentally behind he was on Earth, he has now been in the rugged realm of daily survival for several months. Oh, and he should be quite a bit thinner by now too.

There's nothing the writers can do about that last bit (as it is up to the actor to make the sacrifices to play the part), but at least as far as the LA I'm hoping the season final offers some better answers.

GateroomGuard
June 4th, 2010, 10:44 PM
To Col. Young
Young I know that you are a capable officer, they gave you command of your own base. So I can safely assume you’re familiar with how we defend against gate incursions. An Iris, now I know you don't have one so you use a gateroom defense team. You know like the ones we have at EVERY SINLGLE BASE! Now the Gateroom in the Destiny is probably the best in terms of the defensive positions it offers, what with the elevated positions, the stair cases, the doors to hide behind. Now you also know that traveling from the Milky Way to Destiny causes people to come tumbling out into the gate room. Meaning their the most shootable targets in gateroom defensive history! Now you may say "What if they throw in frag, smoke, or flashbang grenades?" Well a large open space like the gateroom means less effective grenades, a small hallway means very effective grenades. Now Young you have at least 20 soldiers with assault weapons that could be positioned in the gateroom to cover every angle, you also have enough people to keep them in reserve outside the gateroom. So it's very clear that the Gateroom is the best bet to defending the Destiny and any location from incursions.
Young have you ever seen the movie "The Longest Day"? I'm guessing that a military guy like you has. You know the beginning where Rommel is overseeing the construction of beach defenses? You know the part where he flat out says that if the Allies get a beachhead we lose? Well the gateroom is the beach and all those hallways were the beachhead. Meaning YOU'VE LOST.
Not only do the numerous enemy control the gateroom they also have access to the shuttle. Meaning you have no way to resupply or escape. But the enemy does.
Now I can understand that your plan would have solved everything in about 2 minutes. Vacuum the air turn the gateroom into an atmosphereless void killing everyone that comes through. Except you waited until they got through the gate to do it. Now I'm just saying wouldn't getting rid of the air before they arrive causing them to suffocate immediately as the come through the gate be better than getting rid of the air after their through the gate? But it was a good plan, if it worked. But since it didn't you had no plan, or at least thats what I'm assuming since you positioned your soldiers at the doors to the gateroom, you know the doors that the lucian alliance would most likely throw grenades through! Meaning all your soldiers would be in the most dangerous spot possible. Now if they were positioned their because you were going to launch an assault against the gateroom then they were positioned perfectly. I mean were you expecting the Lucian Alliance were going to surrender and your guys would storm the gate room take everyone prisoner and it would be done?
Now your plan to get rid of the air was the perfect plan if you actually did it, since you didn't it turned into the new text book example for SGC candidates in how never to defend the gateroom. Now your back up plan was perfect if the enemy did surrender, but since they didn't it turned into the next text book example in how not to defend a ship. So in conclusion your entire defense strategy was depending on everything going exactly as you planned. Now isn’t that the first thing you are taught never to do in planning an operation?

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
June 4th, 2010, 10:47 PM
i have decided that kiva is a be-atch. she was willing to kill TJ -The only medic on the ship. not to mention she was pregnant with a life. doesn't kiva have any morals?

Loheat
June 4th, 2010, 10:47 PM
Venting the atmosphere wont do much when they brought breathing apparatus with them, all it will do is kill the hostages and force the Lucian Alliance to attack

GateroomGuard
June 4th, 2010, 10:49 PM
i have decided that kiva is a be-atch. she was willing to kill TJ -The only medic on the ship. not to mention she was pregnant with a life. doesn't kiva have any morals?

I don't think you become a Lucian Alliance warlord by having morals.

boo1234
June 4th, 2010, 10:50 PM
Venting the atmosphere wont do much when they brought breathing apparatus with them, all it will do is kill the hostages and force the Lucian Alliance to attack

they looked more like gas masks to me than an breathing apparatus...

RedXian
June 4th, 2010, 10:54 PM
In Subversion Rush says it could take him the rest of his life, and then within a few days including some time spent unconscious due to Telford 'dying' and with limited equipment compared to Icarus, he gets it to work. Seemed a bit fast IMHO. *shrugs*

Yeah.. the rest of his life... cause they'd kill him as soon as he got the gate dialling Destiny.

EllieVee
June 4th, 2010, 10:56 PM
i have decided that kiva is a be-atch. she was willing to kill TJ -The only medic on the ship. not to mention she was pregnant with a life. doesn't kiva have any morals?

While a decision to kill the only medic is a daft one, does Kiva know there's only one medic? (haven't seen the episode) Did Kiva perhaps bring her own medical personnel? Plus, why would TJ's life mean anything at all to her?

Lahela
June 4th, 2010, 11:07 PM
Really enjoyed this ep - a rollercoaster of tensions and emotions.

Young… As much as I enjoy the character for this very reason, I cannot figure this guy out. His decision-making seems to be based entirely on what he wants to believe will happen and that leads him to take unreasonable risks. He wanted Telford to have been brainwashed and was willing to risk two lives to make it so - lucky for him it seems it was so, and lucky he was able to revive Telford or he'd have two deaths on his hands. He wants to believe that Telford can be trusted so he follows his lead, maybe he'll get lucky again. He wants to believe that he can save everyone without losing any more of his own people simply because it's TJ so no risk is acceptable, but I'm pretty sure Rush was right in his assessment about how any other military person would approach the situation. His flip-flopping and refusal to consult with anyone are just frustrating. Geez, the guy really needs to be slapped upside the head. Which I guess is what Jack did, verbally at least.

Speaking of Jack, I loved him in this ep, so much more than in Subversion. I much prefer hardcore Jack to comic-relief Jack. And Sam was fantastic - a hell of a decision to have to make, but she did what needed to be done without hesitation. You know how much she's going to hate it though.

At first I thought Wray was just being the Wray that we've seen so often before, but was very pleasantly surprised by the negotiation scene. She has a gift for words and a quick mind and she bought them some valuable time.

I'm so happy to see TJ in the position she's in - no *flail*, just calmly dealing with things. She knows she's way out of her depth in the medic department, but she doesn't let that get in the way of just doing her best under any circumstances, even heavily pregnant. Such a great character.

Eli and Chloe - I don't think their b-plot is filler at all. We've seen time and again in this show that there's no such thing as a thread that doesn't belong in an ep even if the payoff is a long way down the line, so while it may look like they're just wandering aimlessly and giving us the requisite character moments, I'm 100% confident that they are going to have a big part to play in the resolution of the story. I do kind of wish it had been Eli that had been shot though, so Chloe had to be the one looking after him.

Looking forward to rewatching this one in the lead-up to next week.

RedXian
June 4th, 2010, 11:30 PM
While a decision to kill the only medic is a daft one, does Kiva know there's only one medic? (haven't seen the episode) Did Kiva perhaps bring her own medical personnel? Plus, why would TJ's life mean anything at all to her?

The LA tried to evacuate as many people as they could, which I would assume there'd be medical personnel. However the planet went kablooie and killed over 100 LA guys. Which I assume would include doctors.

I find the idea of the LA aboard Destiny interesting. I can't help but thing of Voyager with the Marquis members aboard. Assuming that some LA members survive and that we gain control of the entire ship again. One of those will probably be Varro (His name was used this episode too).

Col Young has made quite a few bad decisions of late. I'd say that most of his decisions have been questionable. In other circumstances he would have been quickly replaced and given a desk job. He doesn't seem to be able to make the hard decisions. Perhaps something has happened in his life aboard Destiny that caused him to doubt himself (which could explain why he turned down the command of Project Icarus).

Once the situation is resolved an assuming both Col Young and Telford survive there will be power struggle. Col Telford is the commander of Project Icarus however he has been compromised and whether or not he an lead will be called into question. Col Young has been making one poor command decision after another, plus he has medical issues (i.e. his seizures from Air).

On the theme of poor decisions. I'm having a hard time thinking of any the leading characters who made a good decision. They just seem to be making decisions that so far haven't cost someones life. The show feels more real because of it.

BadOnion
June 5th, 2010, 12:05 AM
i have decided that kiva is a be-atch. she was willing to kill TJ -The only medic on the ship. not to mention she was pregnant with a life. doesn't kiva have any morals?

Well she didn't know she was a medic until told.

Azzers
June 5th, 2010, 12:30 AM
I do kind of wish it had been Eli that had been shot though, so Chloe had to be the one looking after him.



The thing about this is, I'm not so sure we're looking at a simple "oh, someone is hurt" scenario. She's shot. She has the blood flow to her leg cut off for the most part. They're walking around an area with bad air and the bleeding hasn't stopped.

I don't think she's going to die. But I will losely speculate that something very major with her charecter may be happening here. I don't think she's being given the short end of the stick in the story so Eli can have a hero moment.

Of course, I'm just speculating.

g.o.d
June 5th, 2010, 01:02 AM
i have decided that kiva is a be-atch. she was willing to kill TJ -The only medic on the ship. not to mention she was pregnant with a life. doesn't kiva have any morals?

killing a woman would have a bigger impact than killing f.e. Riley

Cylykon
June 5th, 2010, 01:24 AM
Touche. My best guess is still a weird star, but it really could be anything.

Just look at all the clues:

1. Destiny won't jump to FTL in a gravity well, so they're near a massive object.
2. Destiny was subjected to some kind of burst of radiation that really stressed the ship's shields and fried poor Greedo who was unfortunate enough to stand under the sun roof, so the massive object could be a pulsar, magnetar, neutron star, or a black hole.
3. It doesn't seem to be emitting radiation between bursts, so that would explain why Eli didn't see it when he was looking out the window.
4. Rush seems to be having a hard time finding it too, so it's either an old, cold, slow pulsar or a neutron star.

On another note, Young and Telford sure kissed and made up quickly... even more quickly than Young and Rush... how conveeeeeenient. Looks like Young and Wray are on track to bury the hatchet soon, too. Can you say "Star Trek: Voyager"?

Lahela
June 5th, 2010, 01:34 AM
The thing about this is, I'm not so sure we're looking at a simple "oh, someone is hurt" scenario. She's shot. She has the blood flow to her leg cut off for the most part. They're walking around an area with bad air and the bleeding hasn't stopped.

I don't think she's going to die. But I will losely speculate that something very major with her charecter may be happening here. I don't think she's being given the short end of the stick in the story so Eli can have a hero moment.

Of course, I'm just speculating.

Very true - I hadn't thought about what might happen down the line as far as her injury is concerned.

guruguru
June 5th, 2010, 02:33 AM
Finally some action, but one thing bugged me, why did not Young disconnect stones when "Rush" popped up from gate or before that, they could of taken out whole alliance at that point? Or am I missing something, did Young loose the control of the stone at some point?

If Young did loose stone control, this was a good episode, but if not, this was really tachy one, not natural, forced into a mould.

mr_kennedy
June 5th, 2010, 02:52 AM
Good episode, i loved how O'niell told Young off that was awesome why are you wasting my time for? go secure the ship, loved Eli & Chloe moments i think there gonna hook up in intervention (pt3) if she doesnt die next week, it was nice seeing 3 members of SG-1 in one episode (even if daniel's scene was only a video message) felt very nostalgic, but where's tea'lc?

Also Wray needs to stfu, cant they just airlock her? which reminds me i hope we see good old fashioned airlocking of the LA assault party ALA BSG next season

dosed150
June 5th, 2010, 03:25 AM
great episode but few things, how naive are these supposed military officers, tj oh no your just gonna kill them, their armed and hostile what does she want to do give them all a hug, also young theres no such thing as acceptable losses, surely a senior officer is supposed to realise sometimes you will take losses, has he actually been to war before? he definetely shouldnt have hesitated to cut the air in the gate room

but less moany things, this to see the lucian alliance are actually credible enemies and don't just charge dumbly like the jaffa, these guys obviously know what their doing

still hoping that actually is ventrell, if it is whats he doing could be working for anyone, be interesting if it turned out the sgc was paying him

as for someone mentioning sams hair being a bit off, surely anyone who notices will just assume sam has dyed it, i mean a lot of people do

MattSilver 3k
June 5th, 2010, 03:27 AM
Episode was fun. A nice set-up, and I'm glad Joe Mallozzi has two episodes to spread his wealth on here (One of the reasons I didn't like Space was because it felt too herky-jerky and rushed). Kiva's a nice villain, all sexy and British-like. Rhona Mitra's chewing of the scenery is funtime personified. Meanwhile, that Telford is actually onboard the Destiny excites me. Either he'll die horribly soon, or become a new problem for Young's command in season two (I personally think they'll find a use for him before he dies horribly mid season two - some sort of liasion between any surviving LA folks and the Destinites?).

Riley... Oh god, he's a dead man, I can feel it. I worry for TJ (Or at least, her spawn) too...

Eli and Chloe's whacky adventure was fun, because it gave Eli some heroic stuff to deal with and it's really propelling him upwards in character development. That, and their bonding is always good, and we're definitely going to find something cool at the end of all these corridors, I know it.

Young continues to be awesomely insane. Rush did nothing really, but I was a little facepalm-y at him and Wray continuing to bump heads with nutso Young. We're in the middle of something kids! Please!

Can't wait for next week...

Nadji
June 5th, 2010, 03:44 AM
Wouldn't it be a huge twist if... Chloe and Eli found nothing of interest in the corridors?

Commander Zelix
June 5th, 2010, 04:11 AM
killing a woman would have a bigger impact than killing f.e. Riley

That baby was going to be a girl. Does that still works? :) ;)

g.o.d
June 5th, 2010, 04:27 AM
That baby was going to be a girl. Does that still works? :) ;)

it doesn't matter

Commander Zelix
June 5th, 2010, 04:29 AM
it doesn't matter
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post seriously. :P

RedXian
June 5th, 2010, 04:40 AM
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post seriously. :P

FWIW I assume that Kiva knows about Young & TJ's relationship through Telford. She picked her for that reason.

globex
June 5th, 2010, 05:10 AM
Intense, suspenseful stargate episode. Brilliant!

wargrafix
June 5th, 2010, 05:38 AM
Intense, suspenseful stargate episode. Brilliant!

The intensity and excitement proves how far the writing has come since the SG series was created.

Commander Zelix
June 5th, 2010, 05:39 AM
FWIW I assume that Kiva knows about Young & TJ's relationship through Telford. She picked her for that reason.
I don't know, because she didn't mention her over the radio IIRC and if she dies Kiva loose her major bargaining chip with Young. Young could just say or think, from her point of view, "Frak it then, let's vent the place into outer place. The person I cared more about was killed anyway."

Jedi_Master_Bra'tac
June 5th, 2010, 05:58 AM
Not watched all the episode yet, but I was right about the Rite of Mal Sharaan

http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/75061-Way-of-resolving-the-Cliff-Hanger

MrVivi
June 5th, 2010, 05:59 AM
man this was one stupid episode US military forces are obviously incompetent to the point of me buying 9 milliliter and conquering you in 24 hours and if Young is leading the defense i could probably do it in 12.

And lets talk about complete lack of originality in the show i mean we have Ep1 in which Earth controls Icarus planet and it explodes and they all end up on Destiny and now at the end of season 1 we again have Icarus planet who is controlled by LA and it explodes and they all end up on Destiny and that kids is called dumb-vision hope you keep watching.
I can already see season 2 plot some of the LA people will survive and then we will have LA people against, Earth people in addition to incredibly popular Civilians vs. Military plot so they can all together make stupid decisions and be idiots in general and the writers can orgasm over what is apparently good drama.

One more thing i could not believe is that a supposed Colonel runs home to ask and cry on big Generals shoulder and this is a supposed SG leader, who the hell gave him the uniform.

Then there is Chloe will you kill of that chick already or at least give her something to do i mean i know shes an eye candy but if you are not going kill her off or give her something to do then let her walk around naked so i can have something interesting to watch now and again.

MattSilver 3k
June 5th, 2010, 05:59 AM
You want a cookie or something?

jmoz
June 5th, 2010, 06:04 AM
Sigh, don't know if this has been said. Don't understand why the military just didn't bunker down in the gate room and pick off the Lucian alliance one at a time as they come through the gate. Isn't there a sort of balcony? Enclosed space leaves little room for maneuvering. Think military people might know what I'm sort of talking about.

Commander Zelix
June 5th, 2010, 06:07 AM
Sigh, don't know if this has been said. Don't understand why the military just didn't bunker down in the gate room and pick off the Lucian alliance one at a time as they come through the gate. Isn't there a sort of balcony? Enclosed space leaves little room for maneuvering. Think military people might know what I'm sort of talking about.
Yeah, I said that already, or sort of. The Destiny's gate room is probably one of the easiest military position to defend in history with the second floor balcony all around it. I thought it was a pretty clever design by the ancient the first place I noticed it. It was particularly apparent in the Design images JM uploaded on his blog.

jmoz
June 5th, 2010, 06:09 AM
What page?

Eli and Chloe are deus ex machina hunting....

Commander Zelix
June 5th, 2010, 06:10 AM
Not watched all the episode yet, but I was right about the Rite of Mal Sharaan

http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/75061-Way-of-resolving-the-Cliff-Hanger
Brag thread Alert!!!!

Commander Zelix
June 5th, 2010, 06:14 AM
What page?

I have no idea, sorry. Just read and saw the images when somebody post about it in here. It was some drawing.

kymeric
June 5th, 2010, 06:14 AM
Just some live thoughts....

Yay carter!!!!!!

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, i had forgot shutting off someones heat cures mindcontrol!

Eep pregnant woman running the halls with a gun, seems unwise...

Suprised they let Chole get shot!

Ohhhhhhh new room!

Mmmm incinerator shield

YAY nother WoW comment!

EvilSpaceAlien
June 5th, 2010, 06:18 AM
Not watched all the episode yet, but I was right about the Rite of Mal Sharaan

http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/75061-Way-of-resolving-the-Cliff-Hanger

Well Done. You get a lifetime supply of nothing in return.

valerius
June 5th, 2010, 06:36 AM
Jesus H. Tap Dancing Christ. This thread is pretty much proof how far we have lowered our standards when it comes to Stargate. Yes, this was a good episode... for Universe. Can't hold a candle to even the mediocre ones from SG1 or A. Guess I have to forget about Stargate being the funnier, more light hearted scifi show even when the stakes are high. While U has improved significantly it's still too dark, twisted and concerned with personal details. I yearn for the days when you learned about important personal stuff while moving a story forward and not as a reason in and for itself.

First of all, even Private Billy could have come up with a better plan to defend that gate room. I know it was for the story, but in the 'real' world, this would have been a suicide attack by the LA. Is Young an idiot? Or are the writers just lazy? Of course they had to lose the battle, but the writers could have done it without making the crew look like incompetent fools. Which, on looking at Season 1 more closely, is a distinct possibility.

Secondly I'm getting pissed off by their personal stuff constantly getting in the way of getting the job done. Goes for the whole season so far - this just isn't how people would act in such a situation. Same goes for the sappy who-with-whom stuff. Come on, are you setting up Eli with Chloe now? Not that I'm interested as a science fiction fan but 35 years in this real world tell me that he'll be her doormat forever while various hunks will share her bed. Eli is good for being the 'friend' ('don't say it' was the single best and realistic line in SG:U so far). Doesn't matter what they'll find or how often he saves her life.

Also, don't get me started about that pregnancy. It's a soap opera vehicle intended to manipulate audiences into liking characters that still don't have one redeeming character trait.

On a positive note I'm surprised that Lou Diamond Phillips isn't dead yet. He must be rather expensive. But I do like him. His character has the right attitude for the situation. Eli continues to be a high point. I'd like to see him mature into a mini-McKay. Hopefully the actor is up to the task.

Kudos for improving the whole series significantly after the Christmas break. Before that I was completely willing to not watch any more. After the break I was somewhat interested again and rewarded with better entertainment. I hope there will be a HUGE change by next week, something that alters the whole premise to a more action oriented affair. By now I know everything I never wanted to know about those thin characters, it's time to dig out a few of the qualities that made Stargate a fixture in my TV schedule for more than a decade.

jelgate
June 5th, 2010, 06:39 AM
Not watched all the episode yet, but I was right about the Rite of Mal Sharaan

http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/75061-Way-of-resolving-the-Cliff-Hanger

I don't think so. A rite means a ritual of custom in a certain. In this case removal of a Jaffs symbiote. Just bringing someone to the brink of death does not equalte Rite of Mal'Sharan

Jedi_Master_Bra'tac
June 5th, 2010, 06:42 AM
You want a cookie or something?
yes please

Well Done. You get a lifetime supply of nothing in return.
yay

I don't think so. A rite means a ritual of custom in a certain. In this case removal of a Jaffs symbiote. Just bringing someone to the brink of death does not equalte Rite of Mal'Sharan

I guess this is a fair point, but it still functioned the same way as the Rite

jelgate
June 5th, 2010, 07:06 AM
I guess this is a fair point, but it still functioned the same way as the Rite

No doubt they have the same result but a lot of things bring someone close to death. Surely those can't all equal Rite of Mal'Sharan?

jmoz
June 5th, 2010, 07:08 AM
Guess Sheppard had that rite too huh? The whole defibrillator thing.

Briangate78
June 5th, 2010, 07:11 AM
Ok so here we go, part 1 of the 2 part finale. Well, gotta say it was pretty good, I only gave it an A, or a very high B+. It started off good but then just dragged a little for me. You had this whole climax and them ready to fight head to head, then when the fight took place it lasted very quickly. It just seemed very rushed at parts. So let me separate this review between plot and character..

Plot

Very solid plot, but folks have complained in the past about SGU not being like SG-1/SGA or being annoyed at rehashed plots. Well this felt like SGA's "The Seige" and The Storm/The Eye, only it did not live up to those eps sadly. I actually saw Subversion part 2 and it was a great cliffhanger, but it's been done before, you will get a "First Strike" kinda feeling, you shall see.

Anyway, getting back to the plot. You had a couple of things going on, Eli and Chloe became totally separated from everyone else, which could be a good thing later...hint hint. I liked seeing the planet blow up and Carter flying away on the Hammond. It made it feel so Stargate. I loved that.

Characters

Young was not bluffing he planned to knock him out, or at least put him at near death to free him of the brainwashing. Scott, was not too happy for Young not telling him. I loved that, and Scott is actually starting to become a character I am enjoying to watch on screen. Greer and Chloe still need a lot of work.

I think there was some great moments like with Young and Rush fighting at eachother and then he realized Rush is correct. Wray was also very good in this episode as well. Acting as the negotiator.

This episode also shows Young's softer side as well as harder side. He was ready to vent atmosphere, but saw they brought Telford through the gate, so he did not want to sacrifice both Young and Rush.

Overall a very good episode, and I think the season finale is going to please some people and really disappoint others. Myself, I am pleased but there has been better Stargate and it was done both with SGA and SG-1

So a A- or 9/10! :)

The Mighty 6 platoon
June 5th, 2010, 07:12 AM
Yeah, I said that already, or sort of. The Destiny's gate room is probably one of the easiest military position to defend in history with the second floor balcony all around it. I thought it was a pretty clever design by the ancient the first place I noticed it. It was particularly apparent in the Design images JM uploaded on his blog.

Actually not putting people in the gate room was the best idea. Gating to Destiny from the Milky Way as we have seen throws people out violently, and at speed. Put people on the ground level next to the stargate and you've got a whole horrible mess of LA personnel being thrown out of the stargate in and amongst you, then it's not a firefight ,it would descend into a brawl and the advantage that Young's personnel would have would be negated. Putting people up on the balcony overlooking the stargate would also seem like a good idea, good field of fire and if it were a normal gate assault this would work perfectly, mow down the LA as they walked through. Except they don't walk through, they get shot through at speed, enough so that more than likely several could scramble underneath the balcony, and then you've got to find some way to dislodge them.

The biggest reason for Young's plan whoever is simply lack of resources. He has only limited ammo and limited military personnel, and he's in a hostile region of space with other hostile aliens to fight. He needs to conserve resources, putting men into the gateroom means putting resources at risk, they had no idea the size of the LA force, the military personnel could have simply run out of ammo, or at the very least suffered casualties, there is no way to guarantee in a firefight you will not take casualties, and the last thing they need is wounded to take care of. Young's plan of venting the atmosphere was absolutely the correct thing to do, with limited resources it was the best course of action. The only reason it didn't work was because he bottled it when he saw Telford, with drove him conviction to get back the hostages later on, the entire situation could be left as Young's feet for not giving the order soon enough.

After that it was all downhill, LA used standard breech and clear tactics to clear the corridors, they took casualties, but with the limited resources available to Young's personnel there was no way they'd realistically hold them back.

Jesus H. Tap Dancing Christ. This thread is pretty much proof how far we have lowered our standards when it comes to Stargate. Yes, this was a good episode... for Universe. Can't hold a candle to even the mediocre ones from SG1 or A. Guess I have to forget about Stargate being the funnier, more light hearted scifi show even when the stakes are high. While U has improved significantly it's still too dark, twisted and concerned with personal details. I yearn for the days when you learned about important personal stuff while moving a story forward and not as a reason in and for itself.

Whose we sucka? Let me handily translate your post into plain English. "Boohoo not everyone shares my opinion." I thought this was a fantastic episode, full of action and tension, and better than many an SG1 and SGA.

BloomGate
June 5th, 2010, 07:13 AM
The one big question I have about the episode is: Why are the Lucian Alliance using guns that shoot bullets? Weapons that propel little bits of lead at high velocity have mostly been unique to military from Earth. I'm pretty sure that there haven't been any in the Milky Way galaxy.

If someone had asked me in advance "If the Lucian Alliance were to get into a firefight, then what kind of weapons would they be shooting with?" I would have had to say Zats and staff weapons because most of their tech comes from the Goa'uld.

I dunno. It could be a writer's choice type thing for aesthetic purposes.

Otherwise, I really liked the episode. It's the first episode that I've watched twice and I'm about to watch it again to get a better look at those Lucian Alliance guns.

jelgate
June 5th, 2010, 07:16 AM
The one big question I have about the episode is: Why are the Lucian Alliance using guns that shoot bullets? Weapons that propel little bits of lead at high velocity have mostly been unique to military from Earth. I'm pretty sure that there haven't been any in the Milky Way galaxy.

If someone had asked me in advance "If the Lucian Alliance were to get into a firefight, then what kind of weapons would they be shooting with?" I would have had to say Zats and staff weapons because most of their tech comes from the Goa'uld.

I dunno. It could be a writer's choice type thing for aesthetic purposes.

Otherwise, I really liked the episode. It's the first episode that I've watched twice and I'm about to watch it again to get a better look at those Lucian Alliance guns.

In past SG1 episodes the Lucian Alliance always carried projectile weapons. So while they have Goa'uld technology I buy it that they use guns over energy weapons

jmoz
June 5th, 2010, 07:19 AM
It's still shooting fish in a barrel. So they are only trained at shooting static targets? Doesn't the room have balconies on both sides giving them good field of vision?

The Mighty 6 platoon
June 5th, 2010, 07:26 AM
It's still shooting fish in a barrel. So they are only trained at shooting static targets? Doesn't the room have balconies on both sides giving them good field of vision?

It's still putting men in danger for no good reason. They had a good plan and it only failed because Young bottled it at the last moment. Any officer that puts his people in danger when there are perfectly good alternatives is a lunatic. Even though they could have good fields of fire, it's such a tight space casualties would be inevitable.

major davis
June 5th, 2010, 07:30 AM
Ok so here we go, part 1 of the 2 part finale. Well, gotta say it was pretty good, I only gave it an A, or a very high B+. It started off good but then just dragged a little for me. You had this whole climax and them ready to fight head to head, then when the fight took place it lasted very quickly. It just seemed very rushed at parts. So let me separate this review between plot and character..

Plot

Very solid plot, but folks have complained in the past about SGU not being like SG-1/SGA or being annoyed at rehashed plots. Well this felt like SGA's "The Seige" and The Storm/The Eye, only it did not live up to those eps sadly. I actually saw Subversion part 2 and it was a great cliffhanger, but it's been done before, you will get a "First Strike" kinda feeling, you shall see.

Anyway, getting back to the plot. You had a couple of things going on, Eli and Chloe became totally separated from everyone else, which could be a good thing later...hint hint. I liked seeing the planet blow up and Carter flying away on the Hammond. It made it feel so Stargate. I loved that.

Characters

Young was not bluffing he planned to knock him out, or at least put him at near death to free him of the brainwashing. Scott, was not too happy for Young not telling him. I loved that, and Scott is actually starting to become a character I am enjoying to watch on screen. Greer and Chloe still need a lot of work.

I think there was some great moments like with Young and Rush fighting at eachother and then he realized Rush is correct. Wray was also very good in this episode as well. Acting as the negotiator.

This episode also shows Young's softer side as well as harder side. He was ready to vent atmosphere, but saw they brought Telford through the gate, so he did not want to sacrifice both Young and Rush.

Overall a very good episode, and I think the season finale is going to please some people and really disappoint others. Myself, I am pleased but there has been better Stargate and it was done both with SGA and SG-1

So a A- or 9/10! :)

I think its because they have no redshirts... Ive said it from day 1.... 80 people was to little to strand... Now if they have a few firefights they've already killed off like half there military and they're going to run out of people quick... never mind have no redshirts to play around with in future seasons.. If they just stranded like 130+... they would have a lot more redshirts to toy around with so we can have more action..

jmoz
June 5th, 2010, 07:34 AM
Gate is what 4 person wide? They would, at most 4, come in such waves. They'd be disoriented for a good few seconds, just enough time for the 10-15 trained soldiers to fire at them before they can react. There are also the stairs where they can just stand and wait for them. High ground usually almost always wins. Yes, tight space, and all of the casualties would probably be on the Lucian alliance side. Maybe the bodies piling up in front of the gate might make some cover for the lucian alliance though, eventually.

aaobuttons
June 5th, 2010, 07:34 AM
Eli and Chloe - I don't think their b-plot is filler at all. We've seen time and again in this show that there's no such thing as a thread that doesn't belong in an ep even if the payoff is a long way down the line, so while it may look like they're just wandering aimlessly and giving us the requisite character moments, I'm 100% confident that they are going to have a big part to play in the resolution of the story. I do kind of wish it had been Eli that had been shot though, so Chloe had to be the one looking after him.



But Chloe couldn't have carried Eli! lol

jelgate
June 5th, 2010, 07:34 AM
I think its because they have no redshirts... Ive said it from day 1.... 80 people was to little to strand... Now if they have a few firefights they've already killed off like half there military and they're going to run out of people quick... never mind have no redshirts to play around with in future seasons.. If they just stranded like 130+... they would have a lot more redshirts to toy around with so we can have more action..

But there is no emotional of red shirts dying. And I have said since Day 1 you're paranoid. No one has died yet and we have had what, 4 deaths this season?

The Mighty 6 platoon
June 5th, 2010, 07:45 AM
Gate is what 4 person wide? They would, at most 4, come in such waves. They'd be disoriented for a good few seconds, just enough time for the 10-15 trained soldiers to fire at them before they can react. There are also the stairs where they can just stand and wait for them. High ground usually almost always wins. Yes, tight space, and all of the casualties would probably be on the Lucian alliance side. Maybe the bodies piling up in front of the gate might make some cover for the lucian alliance though, eventually.

And your speaking from what military experience? Your experience with weapons is what exactly? Young had a plan, a plan that puts none of his men in danger, expends none of his much need and precious ammunition and deals with the LA quickly, neutralising them at the press of a button, rather than risk a firefight that could go on for how long against an enemy that he has no idea about the composition of the LA forces, what their armed with or how many there are.

Young's plan would have worked perfect if he hadn't lost his nerve when he did. It's not just about winning, its about winning with least possible expenditure of personnel and resources.

Briangate78
June 5th, 2010, 07:46 AM
But Chloe couldn't have carried Eli! lol

LOL, that would of been priceless. She would of just dragged him. :lol:

major davis
June 5th, 2010, 07:48 AM
But there is no emotional of red shirts dying. And I have said since Day 1 you're paranoid. No one has died yet and we have had what, 4 deaths this season?

Paranoid... But for a reason... People are going to need to die... But tptb have limited themselves by having few military redshirts to kill... If the had more expendable people... We could see more firefights... So... Have redshirt deaths ever included emotion. ;)

jelgate
June 5th, 2010, 07:49 AM
LOL, that would of been priceless. She would of just dragged him. :lol:

We need to find Ancient wheelbarrows

jelgate
June 5th, 2010, 07:50 AM
Paranoid... But for a reason... People are going to need to die... But tptb have limited themselves by having few military redshirts to kill... If the had more expendable people... We could see more firefights... So... Have redshirt deaths ever included emotion. ;)

80 is expendable enough. We're down to something like 75 people. More then enought for future seasons

garhkal
June 5th, 2010, 07:50 AM
And damm, where did the L.A. learn those tatics at???????? That was freak prefect.

Maybe they got those tactics from watching lots of SWAT movies and the COPS shows..


I don't know if it was Franklin- Rush was confused why the ship wasn't jumping to FTL, and from what we know that occurs when in the proximity of gravity distortions. They could be near something that is penetrating the failing shield in places.

Pulsar maybe..


Actually, it's a three-parter. Episode 201 is "Intervention (Part 3)".

Like Atlantis's the Siege..


i get how he did not know if it was rush or (the other guy) that came thru the gate....but 1-2 losses to keep destiny is well worth it...speshly seeing as how a lot of the nerds know how to control destiny now...i don't get y he risked it...

I actually give him cudos for NOT doing that. Though i wonder if it was more for not wanting to kill rush, or not wanting to kill Telford..


It would have been nice if he did that and they all just put on gas masks and were like what now fool

Gas masks won't do diddly squat without air to breath.


Secondly, and this is only a nit-pick, you had two heavily armed forces firing semi-automatic weapons throughout multiple corriders at near point-blank range and the worst of it was a few severly wounded?
I believe this rates right up there with the shooting abilities of "The A-Team"

That is true. There should have been a heck of a lot more dead and wounded..


I don't get why he didn't press the button, let them all fall unconscious, open the doors, toss some flashbangs in or something and then arrest all of them.

He wouldn't have even needed the flash bangs..


I thought about it and you're right. It was actually fairly easy to win... position all the soldiers in the gate room, let them fly through, and shoot them as they land. That or disarm them as they do if you want to stay civil about this.

OR as i mentioned elsewhere, block the gate so it could not have gotten a lock.


Really interested in how much more the alliance knows about ship

Obviously a lot more, since they have those door devices.


Hmm just remembered something Kiva knew the kino was a camera geez these Lucian people know a lot even small details.

Telford knows of them. so it is not hard to see her knowing.


Yeah, if the first two guys got mowed down then they woulda threw the flashbangs throught the gate.

How would they have known if the first few through got mowed down>?


Although her comment about civilians having control in out society was really cold. It sounds like she was trying to preach to Young again about her rights.

It did seem like a snap at young..


People keep saying that they should have vented the atmosphere - but, honestly, the only way that could have worked was if they had done so prior to the Lucian Alliance even arriving. They would have likely been able to open the doors before it really had any effect on them.

Being how quickly it took Telford to pass out, all those people in the gate room would have done so sooner.


In Subversion Rush says it could take him the rest of his life, and then within a few days including some time spent unconscious due to Telford 'dying' and with limited equipment compared to Icarus, he gets it to work. Seemed a bit fast IMHO. *shrugs*

How do we know it happened in the period of a day. We saw young get home, brief Oneill, Carter on the hammond get briefed, AND the hammond make it to the LA site..


I'm thinking that when the Icarus II planet blew up, a power surge occurred through the stargate which then went into the systems on board Destiny. When the "Unknown" fried that Lucian, it finally overloaded the systems and caused the ship wide malfunction.

On the other thread we are talking about that guy, it was my guess as well. Something happened when they dialed in, and it has caused issues on the ship.


#2. As other people have noted, Young had the superior position. They know people come flying in and land on the ground. Knock them out as they come in and take their weapons! Or vent the atmosphere! You're not gonna kill anyone, because the average human can be revived 5 minutes after being unable to breathe, with no brain damage. 5 MINUTES! That's more than enough time to round up the weapons and lock people in rooms. Rush, even if he was still in Telford's body, WAS IN NO DANGER. In fact, they should have vented the atmosphere the moment the first LA person came through.

Personally i would have had it vented the moment they saw the LA start dialing in.


It would have been a bit nicer if the LA had some kind of knock down everybody on the ship for 5 minutes sonar or some kind of big surprise of that type.

Like that stunner stick Todd used..


Not only do the numerous enemy control the gateroom they also have access to the shuttle. Meaning you have no way to resupply or escape. But the enemy does.

IIRC the shuttle is a ways away from the gate room.


i have decided that kiva is a be-atch. she was willing to kill TJ -The only medic on the ship. not to mention she was pregnant with a life. doesn't kiva have any morals?


Maybe that is WHY she chose her. To see if Young would give in.


Venting the atmosphere wont do much when they brought breathing apparatus with them,

All i saw were gas masks. Which don't do anything in an atmosphere less environ. AND if you have it evacuated before they got there, (ie started it when they first started dialing in), then they might not have even had time to get them on.


Geez, the guy really needs to be slapped upside the head. Which I guess is what Jack did, verbally at least.

I am hoping that slap in his face from jack, gets him to start actually ACTING like a full bird colonel.

major davis
June 5th, 2010, 07:51 AM
Ok there's been more than 4....

Alan Armstrong
Sgt. Curtis
Andrea Palmer
Corpral Gorman
Sgt. Spencer..
At least 6 people in faith
At least 1 or 2 military redshirts in incursion 1 and probably more in part 2...

Thats a far cry from 4... :p

jelgate
June 5th, 2010, 07:52 AM
Ok there's been more than 4....

Alan Armstrong
Sgt. Curtis
Andrea Palmer
Corpral Gorman
Sgt. Spencer..
At least 6 people in faith
At least 1 or 2 military redshirts in incursion 1 and probably more in part 2...

Thats a far cry from 4... :p

I don't exactly go around keeping a count. The point is its not that many in comparassion to the other Stargate series

hisg1fans
June 5th, 2010, 08:02 AM
I liked this episode ! Especially, Jack chewing out Young because he should have vented the gate room immediately when the gate was dialing in. TJ needs to take down the evil LA Commander Chick.

So what vaporized the LA guy? Destiny? Can the ship tell "bad" guys from "good" guys? Something the Smurfs left behind? Lots of questions.

Pharaoh Atem
June 5th, 2010, 08:04 AM
LOL, that would of been priceless. She would of just dragged him. :lol:

i don't think she could even do that. eli's just to heavy

major davis
June 5th, 2010, 08:07 AM
I don't exactly go around keeping a count. The point is its not that many in comparassion to the other Stargate series

Lol your probably right... I'm crazy.... Still... I think stranding more would have been better! :)

Kaiphantom
June 5th, 2010, 08:07 AM
Actually not putting people in the gate room was the best idea. Gating to Destiny from the Milky Way as we have seen throws people out violently, and at speed. Put people on the ground level next to the stargate and you've got a whole horrible mess of LA personnel being thrown out of the stargate in and amongst you, then it's not a firefight ,it would descend into a brawl and the advantage that Young's personnel would have would be negated. Putting people up on the balcony overlooking the stargate would also seem like a good idea, good field of fire and if it were a normal gate assault this would work perfectly, mow down the LA as they walked through. Except they don't walk through, they get shot through at speed, enough so that more than likely several could scramble underneath the balcony, and then you've got to find some way to dislodge them.

I have to disagree. People get launched out of the gate, true, but not that far. And here's the kicker... they hit the ground and are dazed and disoriented for a few moments. Forget guns; give everyone a club and whack people across the back of the head as they come through. Take their weapons and toss them away.

If I were writing that scene, I would have had the LA using those old Goa'uld grenades; you know the ones, that emit a bright light and knock everyone out. At least that would have made sense, and made a more realistic takeover of the ship. And tied into continuity as well! The only detail left is the venting of the atmosphere, but a larger version of the grenade that knocks out people in a larger radius, through walls, would have sufficed.

Then we move to the corridors. Those things are so narrow that it should be damn easy to contain her troops. They have to come through a narrow passageway, which should have made it easy to hit shoot anyone trying to come down (unless they had those goauld grenades, which they didn't). Unless Kiva had been willing to sacrifice many of her men to take the corridors, and it's hard to tell exactly what happened in that firefight, but it appears she didn't lose much, if any, of her men.

yet
June 5th, 2010, 08:07 AM
He thought it was still Rush in there, and if he died, their odds of ever gaining complete control over the ship (or any number of scientific or technical problems) would plummet. He's too valuable to just kill without at least making an attempt to rescue him.

He should have evacuated the air and ordered the stone room to pull the stone and even try to revive Telford after. the gas masks didn't look like they were oxygen masks.

guruguru
June 5th, 2010, 08:10 AM
Why did not Young vent the air anyway and take a chance on reviving Telford afterward, this would of been my choise. I see this episode as a way to introduce more characters into destiny. At least Kiva stay alive and join Destiny crew (guess).

Ps. Kiva means nice in finnish.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 08:14 AM
SGU – Incursion, Part 1
xxxevilgrinxxx

In a lot of ways, I found this episode to be a lot like “Divided”. On the surface, there is the very obvious 'us' and 'them' theme with the Destiny crew on one hand and the Lucian Alliance on the other but, as with so much about Stargate Universe, the writers aren't content to leave things that simply spelled out. There are all sorts of divisions taking place here and some unexpected coalitions as well.

One of the larger divisions that stood out for me was not between crew member and boarder, but within Col. Young himself. The very first answer to boarders was to vent the atmosphere, to kill everyone as they waited there in the gateroom until they could move on further. As a plan, it doesn't get more pure than that and it's a sound military strategy, one I believe that Young, at some point, would have no problem making. However, it's not that Young that appears to have ended up on Destiny.

Throughout all the episodes so far, we've seen a Young that is haunted at losing people and as much as he has no love for Rush, Rush is nonetheless one of his own people. It would make Incursion a far shorter affair but I believe that Rush is one of the main reasons that Young can't press that button. I don't think he could do it if it was Telford either as it seems clear that the men know each other well enough to be on a first name basis. There is a shared moment between Telford and Young when Telford is relating how it felt to do terrible things (under the control of the Lucian Alliance), when he says 'you don't know how it feels' [paraphrase]. Young offers nothing verbally but there is a look shared that has me believe that Young does know how it feels. Not to be an LA mole, but to do terrible things that he regrets.

I also wonder if Young had not spoken to TJ beforehand, or if she had said something very different, if Young would have continued with a more ruthless plan. I think he would have a hard time facing her again if he had done so, so there is this split between what Young would have done, and what Young would do now. I believe that unease with his military ability and his deep caring for the people aboard the Destiny and not wanting to lose any of them is making him second guess the decisions he is making.

There is a also division forming between Young and Scott. One that I sincerely hope will be mended but one that is formed, I believe, by Scott's seeming inability to draw boundaries. We have seen from the very first episode that Scott has no problem disobeying a direct order when he believes he should. This isn't a bad thing but the behaviour does bleed into other areas, such as his inability to draw the correct boundaries with Greer (Kinosode “Drop the Sirs”) and most recently with Wray in “Subversion”, where he chooses to divulge information to Wray. Some could say that Young hadn't trusted Scott with that information either but I tend to think it's more likely that Young hadn't wanted Scott's hands to be dirty, and through keeping him out of it, that could be avoided. As a learning experience, Scott has learned that Young really does know what he's doing.

An interesting thing that came out of that encounter by the door was Greer's reaction. As much as Scott seems to have trouble with the boundaries, Greer does not. Greer may well be in a position to know even less than Scott does and yet he trusts Young to make the call. Trusts him enough that, when advanced upon by Scott, is willing to set friendship aside if need be and push Scott back.

Another possible division is Rush but I don't see this as likely. Rush may be angry but he was warned about the situation in 'Subversion' and he of all people knew how serious it was. Young and Rush may yell and shout at each other but at the end of the day, Rush is back, quite alive, on board Destiny. The mole has been outed and dealt with, which is what they both wanted. I'm still holding out for a begrudging alliance on this one.

As interesting as the divisions are, I'm finding that the alliances are just as interesting. Greer is clearly solidly behind Young, but that isn't too surprising. Telford and Young go back a long ways so it's not too surprising that Telford would back Young, to the point of preventing harm to TJ. I believe he would do so anyway but the added factor that she's carrying Young's child likely helps.

Brody had shown, in “Subversion” that he had chosen to put faith in Young and this was further proven out when Brody was the first one called and that it took no more than a word for Brody to act. I have to wonder if Brody knew what was happening, or if Brody has decided to put his trust in Young after all of the things he's seen? In any case, I expect this to come out further, perhaps in a Brody backstory?

One alliance I hadn't expected was between Wray and Young. In part I saw it as another way in which Wray inserts herself into a position of authority but in this case, I believe that she did so solely to help and not just to help herself. I'll be interested to see where this goes next week. I believe Wray is naive enough to believe that she can negotiate her way out of this mess but she's not dealing with office politics, she's dealing with people that are more than willing to kill to get what they want and I'm not just talking about the LA.

No discussion of “Incursion” would be complete without mentioning Eli and Chloe. It's always been more than friends, at least from Eli's side but I'm wondering if Chloe is getting a new look at her best friend and if she's measuring the two men in her life in that light.

Finally, there is the Destiny herself. It's too soon to speculate, but is the ship's defences kicking in? Is this why they haven't gone to FTL and why LA crew are little piles of ash?

The Mighty 6 platoon
June 5th, 2010, 08:15 AM
I have to disagree. People get launched out of the gate, true, but not that far. And here's the kicker... they hit the ground and are dazed and disoriented for a few moments. Forget guns; give everyone a club and whack people across the back of the head as they come through. Take their weapons and toss them away.

If I were writing that scene, I would have had the LA using those old Goa'uld grenades; you know the ones, that emit a bright light and knock everyone out. At least that would have made sense, and made a more realistic takeover of the ship. And tied into continuity as well! The only detail left is the venting of the atmosphere, but a larger version of the grenade that knocks out people in a larger radius, through walls, would have sufficed.

Then we move to the corridors. Those things are so narrow that it should be damn easy to contain her troops. They have to come through a narrow passageway, which should have made it easy to hit shoot anyone trying to come down (unless they had those goauld grenades, which they didn't). Unless Kiva had been willing to sacrifice many of her men to take the corridors, and it's hard to tell exactly what happened in that firefight, but it appears she didn't lose much, if any, of her men.

"But they could have done this but they could have done that." Blah blah blah blah. You're looking at it with the benefit of hindsight, Young has a plan that puts none of him men in danger, and expends none of his ammunition, something that he doesn't have much of and needs to hold on to. Had he not bottled it when he saw Telford, then they would have neutralised the LA force cleanly.

As for corridors, the LA did standard breech and clear tactics, they took Young's personnel by surprise, opening the doors then they didn't expect it, threw flash bang grenades through, then used the confusion caused by them to storm in. And they still took casualties. You say it would be easy to contain her troops in the corridor, except it's not, the right set of tactics will get you in and the LA used tactics that pretty much any SWAT team would use on entry to a building.

Kaiphantom
June 5th, 2010, 08:26 AM
"But they could have done this but they could have done that." Blah blah blah blah. You're looking at it with the benefit of hindsight, Young has a plan that puts none of him men in danger, and expends none of his ammunition, something that he doesn't have much of and needs to hold on to. Had he not bottled it when he saw Telford, then they would have neutralised the LA force cleanly.

I'll partially grant this, but it still means Young is an idiot.


As for corridors, the LA did standard breech and clear tactics, they took Young's personnel by surprise, opening the doors then they didn't expect it, threw flash bang grenades through, then used the confusion caused by them to storm in. And they still took casualties. You say it would be easy to contain her troops in the corridor, except it's not, the right set of tactics will get you in and the LA used tactics that pretty much any SWAT team would use on entry to a building.

No, actually, they *did* expect LA to open the doors. Or at least blow them open. That was the whole reason they were covering the corridors. "Standard breech and clear tactics?" No fancy tactics can go against the laws of physics. With a narrow corridor compared to a human, it's not that hard to hit someone. There should have been no way the LA could have gotten down the corridor without massive loss of their men. If Young's people were so far up that they were affected by a flashbang, then it just goes to show that the military is totally incompetent. You position your people back far enough so you have plenty of time to react, with more back out of line of sight, ready to move up if you are incapacitated.

Regardless of the details, the whole scene was still a giant wallbanger, showcasing Young and the military as idiots, with poor writing. He should have vented the atmosphere, and cut off the stones so Rush was in no danger. Odds are, Telford would have lived, too, since humans can be revived after 5 minutes of no air.

The Mighty 6 platoon
June 5th, 2010, 08:40 AM
I'll partially grant this, but it still means Young is an idiot.



No, actually, they *did* expect LA to open the doors. Or at least blow them open. That was the whole reason they were covering the corridors. "Standard breech and clear tactics?" No fancy tactics can go against the laws of physics. With a narrow corridor compared to a human, it's not that hard to hit someone. There should have been no way the LA could have gotten down the corridor without massive loss of their men. If Young's people were so far up that they were affected by a flashbang, then it just goes to show that the military is totally incompetent. You position your people back far enough so you have plenty of time to react, with more back out of line of sight, ready to move up if you are incapacitated.

Regardless of the details, the whole scene was still a giant wallbanger, showcasing Young and the military as idiots, with poor writing. He should have vented the atmosphere, and cut off the stones so Rush was in no danger. Odds are, Telford would have lived, too, since humans can be revived after 5 minutes of no air.

How is Young and idiot for wanting to save ammo and personnel?

And if the LA's tactics are such a wallbanger you better check with all the SWAT teams and groups like the SAS who have used tactics successfully. The winding corridors on the Destiney mean you need to stick people near the entrances. And besides which have you ever had a flashbang go off near you? I have. The sheer noise, heat and light created from one leaves you completely disorientated and barely able to function properly. And it don't have to be thrown right next to you to be effective, I was right across the room when someone chucked one in when my unit were conducting OBUA training , if left me utterly disoriented for a good minute. So sticking the military personnel further back isn't really going to work.

And despite this the LA still take casualties, we see LA personnel get shot and we see they have wounded afterwards.

Inquisitor
June 5th, 2010, 08:45 AM
I do not like the way they represented Carter. Carter would have known to beam out the F302 pilots, just like in SGA's season 2 episode 2 The Intruder (Wraith AI episode) they beamed Sheppard onto the bridge.

Sure, they had to in order to make the 'right call' comment, but.. it's Carter. She wouldn't make that mistake.

The Mighty 6 platoon
June 5th, 2010, 08:49 AM
I do not like the way they represented Carter. Carter would have known to beam out the F302 pilots, just like in SGA's season 2 episode 2 The Intruder (Wraith AI episode) they beamed Sheppard onto the bridge.

Sure, they had to in order to make the 'right call' comment, but.. it's Carter. She wouldn't make that mistake.

She's a military officer, she has to make the decision when to go and when some people's lives must be sacrificed. It's a bit of a plot hole that they didn't beam the crew, presumably there was some sort of interference at the time though because she gave the order to beam SGC personnel up from the planet.

BloomGate
June 5th, 2010, 08:51 AM
In past SG1 episodes the Lucian Alliance always carried projectile weapons. So while they have Goa'uld technology I buy it that they use guns over energy weapons

You're right. My bad. I just checked Company of Thieves and they had simplistic auto and semi-auto guns. Evidently Telford told them about laser sights among other things. ;)

nobycane
June 5th, 2010, 09:00 AM
I liked this episode ! Especially, Jack chewing out Young because he should have vented the gate room immediately when the gate was dialing in. TJ needs to take down the evil LA Commander Chick.

So what vaporized the LA guy? Destiny? Can the ship tell "bad" guys from "good" guys? Something the Smurfs left behind? Lots of questions.

My thinking on this is that this part of the ship's shields are breaking down due to an influx of power usage. What I mean by that is since the LA gated in, the number of people had probably two-folded, therefore since Rush and his team had only calibrated life support and energy proportions to accommodate the current team from Icarus - the LA coming on board has more than likely put stress on the shields, life support and other essential energy output systems......so the weaker areas are going to collapse first. Remember this in SGA when the Atlantis' shields were failing and all personnel was to evacuate towards the center of the city? Same scenario!

However, why Destiny did not jump into FTL...........I am sure it will be explained next season!

Kaiphantom
June 5th, 2010, 09:06 AM
How is Young and idiot for wanting to save ammo and personnel?

He's an idiot for not venting the atmosphere, and for not disconnecting the stones the instant he saw Telford in the gate room. The whole reason given for him *not* venting the atmosphere, was that he wanted to save Rush. Disconnecting the stones would have done that. And if he wanted to save Telford, venting the atmosphere is not going to kill everyone; a person can be revived after 5 minutes of no oxygen with no brain damage. After that, they can still be revived, but there could be some brain damage, but varies from person to person.


And if the LA's tactics are such a wallbanger you better check with all the SWAT teams and groups like the SAS who have used tactics successfully. The winding corridors on the Destiney mean you need to stick people near the entrances. And besides which have you ever had a flashbang go off near you? I have. The sheer noise, heat and light created from one leaves you completely disorientated and barely able to function properly. And it don't have to be thrown right next to you to be effective, I was right across the room when someone chucked one in when my unit were conducting OBUA training , if left me utterly disoriented for a good minute. So sticking the military personnel further back isn't really going to work.

We've seen plenty of long, straight corridors on Destiny. It's hard to tell exactly what the situation was like there (due to the bad camera angles and motion during the firefight), but the military should have been prepared for something like flashbangs; it should have been part of their training. Regardless, those things have a certain range, and there should have been people out of that range, ready to move up if others are incapacitated. Otherwise, that's just bad tactics, and putting all your eggs in one basket.

As I said, better writing would have been to use those Goa'uld grenades that flash a light and everyone just drops unconscious(like what Bre'tak used one at the end of SG-1's first season). The LA obviously has access to Goa'uld tech.


And despite this the LA still take casualties, we see LA personnel get shot and we see they have wounded afterwards.

Not many, especially given the circumstances.

The Mighty 6 platoon
June 5th, 2010, 09:13 AM
He's an idiot for not venting the atmosphere, and for not disconnecting the stones the instant he saw Telford in the gate room. The whole reason given for him *not* venting the atmosphere, was that he wanted to save Rush. Disconnecting the stones would have done that. And if he wanted to save Telford, venting the atmosphere is not going to kill everyone; a person can be revived after 5 minutes of no oxygen with no brain damage. After that, they can still be revived, but there could be some brain damage, but varies from person to person.



We've seen plenty of long, straight corridors on Destiny. It's hard to tell exactly what the situation was like there (due to the bad camera angles and motion during the firefight), but the military should have been prepared for something like flashbangs; it should have been part of their training. Regardless, those things have a certain range, and there should have been people out of that range, ready to move up if others are incapacitated. Otherwise, that's just bad tactics, and putting all your eggs in one basket.

As I said, better writing would have been to use those Goa'uld grenades that flash a light and everyone just drops unconscious(like what Bre'tak used one at the end of SG-1's first season). The LA obviously has access to Goa'uld tech.



Not many, especially given the circumstances.

Did Young make an idiotic mistake not venting the atmosphere? Yes he did, but people make mistakes in reality, and it fits his character. His realization that this one mistake of his caused the entire hostage situation drives him to want to get everyone back.
As for flash bangs the firefight clearly is shown happening round narrow winding corridors, which is the perfect situation for the use of flash bangs. And honestly how would Goa'uld stun grenades make any difference, they do exactly the same as flash bangs do in real life. Arguably their less effective, creating no noise or smoke to conceal movement.

major davis
June 5th, 2010, 09:16 AM
Still why didn't he cut the stones... Is there any reason he didnt cut the stone connection to Telford so he could vent the atmosphere.

The Mighty 6 platoon
June 5th, 2010, 09:19 AM
Still why didn't he cut the stones... Is there any reason he didnt cut the stone connection to Telford so he could vent the atmosphere.

Err what? The connection was cut when Rush stepped through the stargate. Telford was physically on the ship.

major davis
June 5th, 2010, 09:23 AM
I know but i was saying Young thought it was still Rush.. So why didnt he cut the connection and then vent the atmosphere...

He was just like.. whoops Rush is on board lets not vent the atmosphere.. He should have ordered Riley to cut the connection and then vented the atmosphere instead of just staring at the screen thinking oh crap.... Or is there an explaniation im missing?

The Mighty 6 platoon
June 5th, 2010, 09:27 AM
I know but i was saying Young thought it was still Rush.. So why didnt he cut the connection and then vent the atmosphere...


How's that any better? Well actually I think I sort of see what you mean, one would die rather than both. However it's of no real relevance because the connection was cut anyway.

Either way Telford dies, and Young hesitated, he thought he had time to wait , a mistake that cost him dearly.

shipper hannah
June 5th, 2010, 09:36 AM
I do not like the way they represented Carter. Carter would have known to beam out the F302 pilots, just like in SGA's season 2 episode 2 The Intruder (Wraith AI episode) they beamed Sheppard onto the bridge.

Sure, they had to in order to make the 'right call' comment, but.. it's Carter. She wouldn't make that mistake.

I thought they said they couldn't beam anyone in or out, hence why they used gliders?

General Jumper One
June 5th, 2010, 09:38 AM
I thought they said they couldn't beam anyone in or out, hence why they used gliders?

They said they couldn't beam into the pyramid

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 09:41 AM
phew, major quotagey goodness...


Franklin/destiny fried that guy :D
I think so too. I think that's why they're not jumping either. Maybe not Franklin exactly, or solely, but the ship, definitely


I can't decide on a star rating for this one, but it's definitely gonna be pretty high. That was one wild ride...
5 stars for me. By the time I could tear my eyes away, it was already over and I was yelling for it to be next week already


i have a question when O'Neill Said "maybe i should be there" when he was talking to young do you think the writers were giving us a vague hint at what might happen in the future?


No, O'Neill was just telling him to get back to work or he may be replaced. There are dozens of lives at stake now, the bar's been raised. If Young can't repel this invasion, the SGC will send someone who can.

exactly on both. O'Neill is basically saying smarten the eff up and get the job done or someone will step in and do it for you. second guessing, especially when he's going to lose people, is part of Young's character but there are times...


He thought it was still Rush in there, and if he died, their odds of ever gaining complete control over the ship (or any number of scientific or technical problems) would plummet. He's too valuable to just kill without at least making an attempt to rescue him.I strongly believe that as well. I know there's a contingent that strongly believes that Young hates Rush but I just don't see it and I think in this scene, he dropped a perfectly viable military decision because he wanted to spare Rush's life. That's no small thing.



...For some reason many Civilians were kept in close proximity to the gateroom and were captured. Why on Earth (or Destiny) would they have been there? They should have been gathered at the farthest point away possible.
....Some of those civilians were necessary to run systems on Destiny that the military couldn't and, as the amount of ship space that they actually control is quite small, everything is close to the gateroom anyway.


...
On a loosely related note: did anyone else howl with laugher at the guy who got scorched by the gate's steam blow-off? I don't know what it was about that scene, but I just couldn't help myself :DYes, I did too. It was as though the Destiny scored a point right off the bat :)


i have decided that kiva is a be-atch. she was willing to kill TJ -The only medic on the ship. not to mention she was pregnant with a life. doesn't kiva have any morals?Kiva is the ruthless "other" that puts Young's humanity in a big bright light for everyone to see. There are those that have made Young out to be some sort of evil incarnate. They're wrong. If you really want to see someone ruthless, with no regard for human life, take a look at Kiva.



...Rhona Mitra's chewing of the scenery is funtime personified. Meanwhile, that Telford is actually onboard the Destiny excites me. Either he'll die horribly soon, or become a new problem for Young's command in season two (I personally think they'll find a use for him before he dies horribly mid season two - some sort of liasion between any surviving LA folks and the Destinites?).

...Eli and Chloe's whacky adventure was fun, because it gave Eli some heroic stuff to deal with and it's really propelling him upwards in character development. That, and their bonding is always good, and we're definitely going to find something cool at the end of all these corridors, I know it.

Young continues to be awesomely insane. Rush did nothing really, but I was a little facepalm-y at him and Wray continuing to bump heads with nutso Young. We're in the middle of something kids! Please!

...
This is why over the top villains can be so much fun :) Chomp chomp chomp
Eli has, as Young's said, pulled their asses out of the fire before and I'm really hoping that he can do it here too. His scenes with Chloe are definitely heroic and it made me laugh when he was talking about WoW.
It amazes me that so many people are bumping heads with Young when there really isn't time for that crap at the moment. Sure, after everyone is fine, then all go down to Brody's bar and have a good old yell, but in the middle of a fight and you get pissy? Ugh


Actually not putting people in the gate room was the best idea. Gating to Destiny from the Milky Way as we have seen throws people out violently, and at speed. Put people on the ground level next to the stargate and you've got a whole horrible mess of LA personnel being thrown out of the stargate in and amongst you, then it's not a firefight ,it would descend into a brawl and the advantage that Young's personnel would have would be negated. Putting people up on the balcony overlooking the stargate would also seem like a good idea, good field of fire and if it were a normal gate assault this would work perfectly, mow down the LA as they walked through. Except they don't walk through, they get shot through at speed, enough so that more than likely several could scramble underneath the balcony, and then you've got to find some way to dislodge them.

The biggest reason for Young's plan whoever is simply lack of resources. He has only limited ammo and limited military personnel, and he's in a hostile region of space with other hostile aliens to fight. He needs to conserve resources, putting men into the gateroom means putting resources at risk, they had no idea the size of the LA force, the military personnel could have simply run out of ammo, or at the very least suffered casualties, there is no way to guarantee in a firefight you will not take casualties, and the last thing they need is wounded to take care of. Young's plan of venting the atmosphere was absolutely the correct thing to do, with limited resources it was the best course of action. The only reason it didn't work was because he bottled it when he saw Telford, with drove him conviction to get back the hostages later on, the entire situation could be left as Young's feet for not giving the order soon enough.

After that it was all downhill, LA used standard breech and clear tactics to clear the corridors, they took casualties, but with the limited resources available to Young's personnel there was no way they'd realistically hold them back.

Whose we sucka? Let me handily translate your post into plain English. "Boohoo not everyone shares my opinion." I thought this was a fantastic episode, full of action and tension, and better than many an SG1 and SGA.
I really appreciate your insights into these things. Add to that that the original plan was to vent the atmosphere, so why would you put your own people in there as well? Clearly, Young is also thinking of Kiva's tactics, when he's talking about the positioning of her own people. They've both got limited resources, but as far as manpower and ammo, Kiva's team is ahead of the game. Young has limited manpower, limited ammo, and he's also got civilians to worry about, all things that Kiva doesn't have to worry about. One thing Young does have going for him is he knows where he is, so he's got home ground advantage.


It's still putting men in danger for no good reason. They had a good plan and it only failed because Young bottled it at the last moment. Any officer that puts his people in danger when there are perfectly good alternatives is a lunatic. Even though they could have good fields of fire, it's such a tight space casualties would be inevitable.Yes, Young definitely failed there and the episode would have been a lot shorter if he'd just vented the atmosphere, but I get his reasons for not doing it.


But Chloe couldn't have carried Eli! lol LOL!


And your speaking from what military experience? Your experience with weapons is what exactly? Young had a plan, a plan that puts none of his men in danger, expends none of his much need and precious ammunition and deals with the LA quickly, neutralising them at the press of a button, rather than risk a firefight that could go on for how long against an enemy that he has no idea about the composition of the LA forces, what their armed with or how many there are.

Young's plan would have worked perfect if he hadn't lost his nerve when he did. It's not just about winning, its about winning with least possible expenditure of personnel and resources.
I think Young's first plan was great, if ruthless. I have no doubt that his fall back plan will be effective as he's already shown once in this show alone that he's more than able to take the ship if he has to. You don't get to the position he's in without making some ruthless decisions and we're about to see some.

We need to find Ancient wheelbarrows*huge grin*


Did Young make an idiotic mistake not venting the atmosphere? Yes he did, but people make mistakes in reality, and it fits his character. His realization that this one mistake of his caused the entire hostage situation drives him to want to get everyone back.
As for flash bangs the firefight clearly is shown happening round narrow winding corridors, which is the perfect situation for the use of flash bangs. And honestly how would Goa'uld stun grenades make any difference, they do exactly the same as flash bangs do in real life. Arguably their less effective, creating no noise or smoke to conceal movement.I completely agree that this fits his character. From moment one in this show, Young has been someone that didn't want to do it anymore. It doesn't mean that he can't, and that's an important distinction to make. He doesn't want to do it because he's lost too many people and doesn't want to lose any more. He turfed his plan so he wouldn't lose Rush. Now pressed with getting people back, I think we're going to see a whole new animal.

Kaiphantom
June 5th, 2010, 09:44 AM
Did Young make an idiotic mistake not venting the atmosphere? Yes he did, but people make mistakes in reality, and it fits his character. His realization that this one mistake of his caused the entire hostage situation drives him to want to get everyone back.
As for flash bangs the firefight clearly is shown happening round narrow winding corridors, which is the perfect situation for the use of flash bangs. And honestly how would Goa'uld stun grenades make any difference, they do exactly the same as flash bangs do in real life. Arguably their less effective, creating no noise or smoke to conceal movement.

They are better, because a flashbang still leaves you conscious, while a Goa'uld grenade knocks you out instantly, and lasts several minutes at least. Enough time to take the corridors without risking a single life. It also has a larger radius of effect than a flashbang, enough to take out people waiting further down the corridors.

Look, maybe you can layer on rationalization after justification, until the kool-aid tastes good enough. The rest of us see bad writing, and idiotic decisions, which is fair criticisms. Had I been writing it, I would have given the LA a nice stun device that worked on a decent range, at least. Or a large bomb. "Vent the atmosphere and I set this off, which will destroy the entire ship." In fact, that would have made a better standoff. If I'm gating onto a ship with known hostiles, and I know their MO, I'm gonna have a damn good for taking the ship. Kiva didn't; her whole thing was "Let's gate a bunch of my men onto it and hope we can take it.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DarthWiki/WallBanger?from=Main.WallBanger

This episode has them.

hedwig
June 5th, 2010, 09:49 AM
i have decided that kiva is a be-atch. she was willing to kill TJ -The only medic on the ship. not to mention she was pregnant with a life. doesn't kiva have any morals?

I have no doubt whatsoever that Kiva would have killed TJ on the spot had Telford not stopped her. And that act alone would have doomed her. Every survivor on board would likely had been happy to kill her themselves if they got a chance. And awhile back, I said something about her being completely coldhearted, and this supports that notion. The very fact that she could even consider killing a pregnant woman just to make a point gives her zero credibility with me. I don't even care that she gets mad when one of her own people gets killed; so what if she's willing to kill a pregnant woman?


While a decision to kill the only medic is a daft one, does Kiva know there's only one medic? (haven't seen the episode) Did Kiva perhaps bring her own medical personnel? Plus, why would TJ's life mean anything at all to her?

She told Rush (last week?) she had a list of all the people that made it to Destiny, which suggests she might also know that one of those people was a medic. I would think that means she also knows who the medic was. But she didn't know the pregnant woman was the medic (IMO), partly because TJ wasn't wearing a uniform, and Kiva didn't stop to get names when they took prisoners (other than names being on uniform jackets).


killing a woman would have a bigger impact than killing f.e. Riley

Killing a pregnant woman would have made an enormously bigger impact than killing any of the other prisoners.

The Mighty 6 platoon
June 5th, 2010, 09:49 AM
They are better, because a flashbang still leaves you conscious, while a Goa'uld grenade knocks you out instantly, and lasts several minutes at least. Enough time to take the corridors without risking a single life. It also has a larger radius of effect than a flashbang, enough to take out people waiting further down the corridors.

Look, maybe you can layer on rationalization after justification, until the kool-aid tastes good enough. The rest of us see bad writing, and idiotic decisions, which is fair criticisms. Had I been writing it, I would have given the LA a nice stun device that worked on a decent range, at least. Or a large bomb. "Vent the atmosphere and I set this off, which will destroy the entire ship." In fact, that would have made a better standoff. If I'm gating onto a ship with known hostiles, and I know their MO, I'm gonna have a damn good for taking the ship. Kiva didn't; her whole thing was "Let's gate a bunch of my men onto it and hope we can take it.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DarthWiki/WallBanger?from=Main.WallBanger

This episode has them.No it really isn't a wallbanger. If you had any idea the effect flashbangs have, especially in confined spaces, you wouldn't be nitpicking.

Apart from that bad decisions happen, have you considered that Young making a mistake was part of the episode, or do your tv characters have to be perfect?

Kaiphantom
June 5th, 2010, 09:52 AM
No it really isn't a wallbanger. If you had any idea the effect flashbangs have, especially in confined spaces, you wouldn't be nitpicking.

Apart from that bad decisions happen, have you considered that Young making a mistake was part of the episode, or do your tv characters have to be perfect?

You didn't read the tvtropes entry, did you? When a character takes the idiot ball and runs with it, that's a wallbanger. When an entire defense team can be taken out with a *single* flashbang because they were all bunched up and carrying idiot balls, that's a wallbanger. There's willing suspension of disbelief, and then there's a wallbanger.

Read the entry.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 09:56 AM
No it really isn't a wallbanger. If you had any idea the effect flashbangs have, especially in confined spaces, you wouldn't be nitpicking.

Apart from that bad decisions happen, have you considered that Young making a mistake was part of the episode, or do your tv characters have to be perfect?yikes, spare us from perfect characters that never make a mistake! I for one am glad that not only was a mistake made but that weakness and indecision was right up front, with Young going to O'Neill. Having perfect characters that always know exactly what to do and are sure of themselves at every moment gets old really fast.

aaobuttons
June 5th, 2010, 10:01 AM
SGU – Incursion, Part 1
xxxevilgrinxxx


No discussion of “Incursion” would be complete without mentioning Eli and Chloe. It's always been more than friends, at least from Eli's side but I'm wondering if Chloe is getting a new look at her best friend and if she's measuring the two men in her life in that light.



Not to break down into a Scott/Chloe/Eli discussion, but I would like to see some realization on Chloe's part. Either that she realizes Eli's feelings are more than friendship and shoots him down, or that she realizes that she has feelings for him that are more than friendship.

I've always thought that she and Scott got together because she needed a protector, being all alone without her father in the middle of nowhere is scary, and it's completely understandable that she needed somebody of strength to take care of her. The fact that Eli can protect her as well will perhaps push that factor out of the way when determining if there is more to her relationship with Scott and if not, if Eli isn't a better option for her as a whole.

My guess would be that no, she doesn't give up Scott and Eli is left heartbroken... but who knows, maybe there will be a cute girl with the LA that can capture his heart in season 2. ;)

MattSilver 3k
June 5th, 2010, 10:04 AM
You didn't read the tvtropes entry, did you? When a character takes the idiot ball and runs with it, that's a wallbanger. When an entire defense team can be taken out with a *single* flashbang because they were all bunched up and carrying idiot balls, that's a wallbanger. There's willing suspension of disbelief, and then there's a wallbanger.

Read the entry.

Here's my favourite part:


Examples within the following pages will be highly subjective.

I get that you think it was a wallbanger/idiot ball-fest/too far for willing suspension of disbelief, but seriously guy, just relax a bit and accept that not everybody will see it the same way.

s09119
June 5th, 2010, 10:08 AM
Well I watched it a third time and I'm still staunchly in the camp that believes Young's mistake was just that... a mistake. He weighed their odds with or without Rush or Telford and decided that saving them was worth at least a try. Besides, he couldn't have known that the Alliance had the ability to override their locks. As far as he knew, he could try to make a play to save Rush/Telford without ever letting Kiva and her men break containment.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 10:26 AM
Well I watched it a third time and I'm still staunchly in the camp that believes Young's mistake was just that... a mistake. He weighed their odds with or without Rush or Telford and decided that saving them was worth at least a try. Besides, he couldn't have known that the Alliance had the ability to override their locks. As far as he knew, he could try to make a play to save Rush/Telford without ever letting Kiva and her men break containment.

of course it's a mistake but I think it was a mistake with the best of intentions
it happens

Kaiphantom
June 5th, 2010, 10:47 AM
Here's my favourite part:

It's a disclaimer, which as anyone knows, is there just to cover all bases. There are a LOT of wallbangers that most people agree on.[/quote]


I get that you think it was a wallbanger/idiot ball-fest/too far for willing suspension of disbelief, but seriously guy, just relax a bit and accept that not everybody will see it the same way.

I might if they did. =)

But so far, most people agree that Young made really bad decisions. And in fact, it was only those bad decisions that made it possible for the LA to have the control they do so far. If he were on Earth, odds are his rank would be stripped and he might even be kicked out of the SG program, and given a discharge from the military. We're talking grade A tactical blunders. O'Neill even called him out on it, so it is *fact.* Young's idiot balls created a wallbanger.

I mean, look at your sig! :P

MattSilver 3k
June 5th, 2010, 11:14 AM
But so far, most people agree that Young made really bad decisions. And in fact, it was only those bad decisions that made it possible for the LA to have the control they do so far. If he were on Earth, odds are his rank would be stripped and he might even be kicked out of the SG program, and given a discharge from the military. We're talking grade A tactical blunders. O'Neill even called him out on it, so it is *fact.* Young's idiot balls created a wallbanger.

I mean, look at your sig!

Yeah... but I think insanity should be a valid excuse to get out of wallbangerness (Sort of how it can get you time in a mental hospital instead of prison!). I should go add that as a second disclaimer.

Kaiphantom
June 5th, 2010, 11:24 AM
Yeah... but I think insanity should be a valid excuse to get out of wallbangerness (Sort of how it can get you time in a mental hospital instead of prison!). I should go add that as a second disclaimer.

For the sake of argument, if Young is insane, then all the more reason to replace him with Wray or Rush, heh. I might concede that he is at least a bit nuts, and that may not be a bad thing, but I don't personally believe he's over the wall yet. But I can admit that's subjective of me.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 11:26 AM
For the sake of argument, if Young is insane, then all the more reason to replace him with Wray or Rush, heh. I might concede that he is at least a bit nuts, and that may not be a bad thing, but I don't personally believe he's over the wall yet. But I can admit that's subjective of me.

I can get behind him being a little nuts. I don't see that as much of a flaw though, so it works for me :)

darksiege
June 5th, 2010, 11:30 AM
Ok something that has been over looked in all this discussion is "What is Kiva's plan?" hmm lets go to this rust bucket and... Shes gotta know something about how to get it home, shes not going to simply try to turn it around and wait 100,000 years or how ever long... So lets run it down, they can open the doors, through specific tech means, so they have a similar door or mechanism to test and fabricate from. Telford couldn't possibly give details for fabricating something like that. Where is this door? What else did it come with? (ship or base,possibly the launch point) and how did they come by it?
It seems pretty obvious that Franklin/destiny did fry that guy, and is also not moving the ship, so young's going to be like "OK well I don't have control and good luck trying to get it!"

Nemises
June 5th, 2010, 12:11 PM
It was a disastrous mistake that cost the lives of many people under his command.

He could have always saved telford (body) after venting the air like he did before.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 12:25 PM
It was a disastrous mistake that cost the lives of many people under his command.

He could have always saved telford (body) after venting the air like he did before.

If Telford/Rush is alive enough to be saved, so could any of the LA be, so it's not a sure thing. In any case, the thing is done and now he's got to come up with a new plan

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
June 5th, 2010, 12:25 PM
did anybody think when telford found out he was in his own body he was like "oh crap im in trouble now?"

Nemises
June 5th, 2010, 12:51 PM
If Telford/Rush is alive enough to be saved, so could any of the LA be, so it's not a sure thing. In any case, the thing is done and now he's got to come up with a new plan

They'd all be unconscious like telford was in the beginning of the episode.

Blackhole
June 5th, 2010, 01:04 PM
Hopefully Chloe will get medical attention soon. From my First Aid training I believe someone can go about a 1/2 hour with a tourniquet on an extremity before they risk loosing the limb.

Shan Bruce Lee
June 5th, 2010, 02:29 PM
The premise of this episode was good, but it relied on way too many wallbangers for things to happen as they did and get the LA onto the ship.

#1. Rush, you idiot. You could have said you couldn't dial Destiny, or dialed another address. I know he wants to live and the TPTB want to get the LA onto the ship, and Rush probably figured Young could handle it, which leads to...

#2. As other people have noted, Young had the superior position. They know people come flying in and land on the ground. Knock them out as they come in and take their weapons! Or vent the atmosphere! You're not gonna kill anyone, because the average human can be revived 5 minutes after being unable to breathe, with no brain damage. 5 MINUTES! That's more than enough time to round up the weapons and lock people in rooms. Rush, even if he was still in Telford's body, WAS IN NO DANGER. In fact, they should have vented the atmosphere the moment the first LA person came through.

Young is officially an idiot, too. Rush is right; even if they have hostages, vent the atmosphere. By the time they notice, they'll be starting to pass out. Lose people, or lose the entire ship; it's not a hard choice.

ARGH!

Okay, that's out of my system. Much to my disgust, I actually liked the Eli/Chloe scenes; and he's proving once again that he is WAY too good for her. In her mind, she has the stud for sex, and she's got a doormat for everything else. She will learn nothing unless they both drop her.

Young, once again, was another kind of idiot for not telling people what he was doing to Telford; that he wasn't going to kill him, and instead was going to get him near-death to break the brainwashing. Of course, that would ruin the whole suspense factor at the start of the episode, but it was stupid suspense. At the least, they could have had it where Young told everyone earlier, and they were just acting. But as Scott tried to tell him, Young should not be a dictator; he should talk to his people so they are more behind him, otherwise he loses the respect of people under his command.... not a good thing.

Wray's negotiation was good, however, once it got to that point. But I really think someone should have said "Congratulations LA, you've landed on this rust bucket that could give out at any time, and we're the only ones with food and water. None of us are ever going home, so if we're going to survive, we're going to have to learn to work together."

As I said, a lot of wallbangers. And knowing what I do about the next episode, there are some wallbangers there, too. The rest of the season has been decent; not as good as SG-1 and SGA, but decent. I'll watch season 2, but they really need to work to keep me aboard. No more wallbangers, and tone down the use of the loud, annoying music.

1. What good would dialing another planet do? With all the tech the LA have, I'm pretty sure they know how to shut down the gate and dial again. And besides, was it even Rush who dialed it?

2. The only way they could've taken advantage of their position would be to have soldiers physically in the gate room. Which would be risking their lives if the LA had thrown some grenades through before they stepped through.And by the time they realized the LA weren't doing that it was too late - they were already clear of the gate.


While I appreciate the progress in the story-line, a couple of things still jump out for being, well, idiotic.

First is the reason Kiva gives for wanting to be on Destiny. Sorry, but unless the writers reveal a secret reason that Kiva is holding back, her statement about Destiny just doesn't make sense. The LA are mercenaries and terrorists, and perhaps a rebel government on certain planets. They're just not the type to want to "boldly go where no man has gone before."

Second is Eli. The writers are making him out to be 14 years old. Really, no matter how developmentally behind he was on Earth, he has now been in the rugged realm of daily survival for several months. Oh, and he should be quite a bit thinner by now too.

There's nothing the writers can do about that last bit (as it is up to the actor to make the sacrifices to play the part), but at least as far as the LA I'm hoping the season final offers some better answers.

Not really. First of all, they're definitely not terrorists. And as far as mercenaries - w/e mercenaries they have are working for them following orders etc. If mercenaries were running the show it would defeat the purpose of being a mercenary (paradox)

Shan Bruce Lee
June 5th, 2010, 02:50 PM
Episode was fun. A nice set-up, and I'm glad Joe Mallozzi has two episodes to spread his wealth on here (One of the reasons I didn't like Space was because it felt too herky-jerky and rushed). Kiva's a nice villain, all sexy and British-like. Rhona Mitra's chewing of the scenery is funtime personified. Meanwhile, that Telford is actually onboard the Destiny excites me. Either he'll die horribly soon, or become a new problem for Young's command in season two (I personally think they'll find a use for him before he dies horribly mid season two - some sort of liasion between any surviving LA folks and the Destinites?).

Riley... Oh god, he's a dead man, I can feel it. I worry for TJ (Or at least, her spawn) too...

Eli and Chloe's whacky adventure was fun, because it gave Eli some heroic stuff to deal with and it's really propelling him upwards in character development. That, and their bonding is always good, and we're definitely going to find something cool at the end of all these corridors, I know it.

Young continues to be awesomely insane. Rush did nothing really, but I was a little facepalm-y at him and Wray continuing to bump heads with nutso Young. We're in the middle of something kids! Please!

Can't wait for next week...

Yeah, I don't think Riley is gonna make it either.


Sigh, don't know if this has been said. Don't understand why the military just didn't bunker down in the gate room and pick off the Lucian alliance one at a time as they come through the gate. Isn't there a sort of balcony? Enclosed space leaves little room for maneuvering. Think military people might know what I'm sort of talking about.

They left the gateroom empty so they could let all the LA come through the gate and then trap them in and vent the atmosphere. There was no reason for anyone to believe they had the devices to open the doors.

kansaikimono
June 5th, 2010, 02:50 PM
If you watched "Lost" (Oceanic, the Island, etc. Lost), then you know the running joke was how often Ben Linus got beat up.

Is the running joke in this series how often Rush puts stress on his heart? Seriously. How many months have they been aboard Destiny? Less than a year?

So, you have this character who is nigh unto 50.

He's been the lead scientist on a frustrating project, he's haunted by his wife's death, hated by everyone when they arrive on Destiny, had a stress attack/caffeine withdrawal bout and fallen unconscious in the Gate Room, he's at odds with Young, had both Franklin and Riley injured while they were working directly for him, nearly collapsed from heat exhaustion in the desert, possibly subjected to the terrors on the jungle planet, stirred up trouble by planting a gun in Young's room, been beaten up by Young and left stranded on an inhospitable planet, captured and tortured by aliens, barely managed an escape, implanted with a tracking device, had the tracking device removed under perilous conditions, threatened at gunpoint by Young during a mutiny, endured the Chair, experienced the "tick terrors," subjected to torture in Telford's body, beaten up by Greer, suffocated, and resuscitated by CPR.

Did I leave anything out?

dosed150
June 5th, 2010, 02:53 PM
the la guy who got fried it must have been some kind of solar radiation or something, he was stood under a hole in the hull that the camera zoomed in on

Major_Griff
June 5th, 2010, 02:53 PM
Did I leave anything out?

Tortured by Kiva.

Duneknight
June 5th, 2010, 02:56 PM
Young did a horrible mistake that cost people their lives. my fav character making such a mistake saddens me :(

Duneknight
June 5th, 2010, 03:01 PM
the la guy who got fried it must have been some kind of solar radiation or something, he was stood under a hole in the hull that the camera zoomed in on

how does that explain the ship not entering FTL?

Callie
June 5th, 2010, 03:16 PM
tone down the use of the loud, annoying music.

Oh, I could NOT disagree more! In fact:

Dear script writers, producers, directors and editors: Please stop putting exciting action, complete with explosions, gunfire and shouting, over the top of Joel Goldsmith’s awesome background music, cos it’s very distracting and I can’t hear the music properly. Kthxbai. Love and hugs, Callie.
P.S. Alternatively, bully the man out of his current stance and order him to release a soundtrack album! Ta muchly.

Duneknight
June 5th, 2010, 03:31 PM
but this episode felt unfinished needed a good ending, and needed to explain why LA decided to attack destiny they way they did, seems kinda improvised.

jelgate
June 5th, 2010, 03:33 PM
but this episode felt unfinished needed a good ending, and needed to explain why LA decided to attack destiny they way they did, seems kinda improvised.

Its kind of obvious why the Alliance attacked Icarus after this episode. They wanted the mysteries of Destiny for themself

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 03:36 PM
Young did a horrible mistake that cost people their lives. my fav character making such a mistake saddens me :(Yes, he made a mistake but wouldn't you rather see a very human character that is capable of making mistakes than an unlikely (and in the end unrelatable) superhero type character that never makes any mistakes?


but this episode felt unfinished needed a good ending, and needed to explain why LA decided to attack destiny they way they did, seems kinda improvised.It felt unfinished cus it is unfinished :D

Duneknight
June 5th, 2010, 03:39 PM
i meant LA didnt plan for the attack, no bomb no tactics, especially considering what Telford fed em. Young couldve been waiting guns loaded on the other side. yeah i get that Kiva didnt have the time and was waiting for response. but they did all this so in the end they just go with the flow

Duneknight
June 5th, 2010, 03:42 PM
Yes, he made a mistake but wouldn't you rather see a very human character that is capable of making mistakes than an unlikely (and in the end unrelatable) superhero type character that never makes any mistakes?

i think the writers make the characters make mistakes to suit the storyline but make them geniuses when the want the story to resolve itself. thats one big mistake though. venting the atmosphere wasnt a good defensive strategy. he should put a few guards in front of the gate even if there were risks.

BadOnion
June 5th, 2010, 03:45 PM
i think the writers make the characters make mistakes to suit the storyline but make them geniuses when the want the story to resolve itself.

People make mistakes.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 03:46 PM
i think the writers make the characters make mistakes to suit the storyline but make them geniuses when the want the story to resolve itself. thats one big mistake though. venting the atmosphere wasnt a good defensive strategy. he should put a few guards in front of the gate even if there were risks.

I don;t see any of the "genius" solutions here. Sure, in Rush and Eli, they do have a pair of genuises on board but even what they do isn't over the top and they've also made mistakes that are fitting. Venting the atmosphere was a good plan, probably the best they could have done. It was also quite a ruthless plan as it would kill everyone in the room. From a military POV, it's a great plan but from a human POV? From a leader that is fed up with sacrificing lives? Not so much. Also, as the plan was to vent the atmosphere in the first place, why would Young put his own people in the gate room? To kill them too when, if he did make good on his plan, he vented the room? There are risks in every plan.

Duneknight
June 5th, 2010, 03:51 PM
I don;t see any of the "genius" solutions here. Sure, in Rush and Eli, they do have a pair of genuises on board but even what they do isn't over the top and they've also made mistakes that are fitting. Venting the atmosphere was a good plan, probably the best they could have done. It was also quite a ruthless plan as it would kill everyone in the room. From a military POV, it's a great plan but from a human POV? From a leader that is fed up with sacrificing lives? Not so much. Also, as the plan was to vent the atmosphere in the first place, why would Young put his own people in the gate room? To kill them too when, if he did make good on his plan, he vented the room? There are risks in every plan.

well then he wouldnt need to vent the gateroom if he had troops there. sorry but venting the atmosphere wouldve not worked anyway even if Rush wasnt there, it was a bad plan he shouldve anticipated their preparation. sealing doors? seriously?

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 03:58 PM
well then he wouldnt need to vent the gateroom if he had troops there. sorry but venting the atmosphere wouldve not worked anyway even if Rush wasnt there, it was a bad plan he shouldve anticipated their preparation. sealing doors? seriously?

Young has limited personnel and limited ammo. He also has no idea what the LA, who don't have limited personnel or ammo, will be bringing with them. You're also assuming that he had this great amount of time to prepare, when it doesn't look like they did. Bottling the LA up in the gate room and a)taking care of them right then and there (and not risking anyone else) or b) taking the LA out in the winding, dark, unknown to the LA corridors, picking them off until the numbers are manageable is a perfectly sound military plan when you're dealing with an invasion force larger and better armed than you are.

Duneknight
June 5th, 2010, 04:01 PM
Young has limited personnel and limited ammo. He also has no idea what the LA, who don't have limited personnel or ammo, will be bringing with them. You're also assuming that he had this great amount of time to prepare, when it doesn't look like they did. Bottling the LA up in the gate room and a)taking care of them right then and there (and not risking anyone else) or b) taking the LA out in the winding, dark, unknown to the LA corridors, picking them off until the numbers are manageable is a perfectly sound military plan when you're dealing with an invasion force larger and better armed than you are.

umm, didnt the episode prove that the plan you talking about was so wrong? i think Young just wanted to see people suffocating again.

darksiege
June 5th, 2010, 04:01 PM
Why are we all still talking about Young's plans... the real question is whats Kiva going to do with a ship that essentially can't go home? Time, resources, personnel? they don't have the means... so whats the plan...

Duneknight
June 5th, 2010, 04:06 PM
Why are we all still talking about Young's plans... the real question is whats Kiva going to do with a ship that essentially can't go home? Time, resources, personnel? they don't have the means... so whats the plan...

like i know, this LA stuff is a pain in the neckta thats what it is. coz i though LA wanted power not explore galaxies.

darksiege
June 5th, 2010, 04:10 PM
I don't think Kiva has hidden a Wormhole drive up her butt that's for sure... Damn that's nice...

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
June 5th, 2010, 04:20 PM
too bad we didn't have a goa'uld shock grenade or a wraith stun grenade. those things can knock people out for hours.

fluxcapacitor
June 5th, 2010, 04:27 PM
Just rewatched this episode and there is so much going on it was better the 2nd time. I love the idea of the ship somehow knowing to fry the bad guy but think it most likely is just the result of them being in a dangerous section as the ship begins to go haywire mechanically.

There were great little moments too. I liked young's initial facial reaction when wray refers to herself on the radio as the leading civilian authority, i liked eli and chloe bracing for a big pressure change when they opened the door b/c it may be a section with holes in it and i really enjoyed young and telfor's "what the hell just happened and darnit we need to try our plan again" moment.

After reading the comments i found interesting that no one has mentioned the lack of a music montage in this episode (my apologies to anyone who did mention it and i missed). It's been a pretty standard thing and they skipped it on this one. I've liked some and not liked others, but in this episode i'm glad there was not one.

GateroomGuard
June 5th, 2010, 04:41 PM
like i know, this LA stuff is a pain in the neckta thats what it is. coz i though LA wanted power not explore galaxies.

Knowledge is Power!

shipper hannah
June 5th, 2010, 05:15 PM
Young did a horrible mistake that cost people their lives. my fav character making such a mistake saddens me :(

That's a high standard you hold the characters to if they can never make a mistake.

Kaiphantom
June 5th, 2010, 05:15 PM
1. What good would dialing another planet do? With all the tech the LA have, I'm pretty sure they know how to shut down the gate and dial again. And besides, was it even Rush who dialed it?

2. The only way they could've taken advantage of their position would be to have soldiers physically in the gate room. Which would be risking their lives if the LA had thrown some grenades through before they stepped through.And by the time they realized the LA weren't doing that it was too late - they were already clear of the gate.

#1. She ordered Rush to dial. What good would it have done? LA wouldn't have been able to get to Destiny, and the SGC would have gained control of an Icarus Planet to send supplies to Destiny.

#2. Venting the atmosphere was a good plan. I was merely pointing out that there were several good ideas, all of which would have had a 100% chance of success. Where Young dropped the idiot ball, was not doing, or severing the stone connection so he could, the instant he saw Telford in the gate room. Venting the atmosphere would *not* have killed Telford. 1 minute to vent, 1 minute for people to begin passing out, wait another 2-3 minutes for good measure, then storm in, revive Telford, get the weapons out of the way and start reviving as many people as you can and keeping them as prisoners (or not).

It's such a perfect plan, it takes an idiot to screw it up. Good thing we have Young on board. No, he's not perfect, and yes, people do make mistakes. We already know Young isn't perfect; but he has the lives of everyone on-board in his hands and he insists on being head honcho; with great power comes great responsibility. If he can't handle it, he should step down and let someone else do it.

When the president of the US starts a war that costs billions of dollars and millions of lives, and drops taxes so we have trillions of dollars in debt, do you just go, "Oh well, he's human and not perfect, because that excuses everything" ? No, you call him for what it is: an idiot making stupid decisions.

And having seen Incursion part II, let me say that his idiocy only gets worse. You're in for more wallbangers.

Pharaoh Atem
June 5th, 2010, 05:16 PM
too bad we didn't have a goa'uld shock grenade or a wraith stun grenade. those things can knock people out for hours.

and that would be the easy way out. something not done in SGU

EllieVee
June 5th, 2010, 05:29 PM
Err what? The connection was cut when Rush stepped through the stargate. Telford was physically on the ship.

Young didn't know that, though, did he?

hedwig
June 5th, 2010, 05:37 PM
but this episode felt unfinished needed a good ending, and needed to explain why LA decided to attack destiny they way they did, seems kinda improvised.

See next week's episode. And possibly the first one of next season. :D

BadOnion
June 5th, 2010, 05:37 PM
Vwnting would NOT have worked, they could have opened the doors in plenty of time.

Pharaoh Atem
June 5th, 2010, 05:38 PM
See next week's episode. And possibly the first one of next season. :D

yes two parters are good for watching and then watching again.

Jumper_One
June 5th, 2010, 05:44 PM
ZeroPointBatteries writes: “ok joe great epp sofar but why didn’t carter just beam out the two pilots that were on their way back to the hammond?”

Answer: She certainly could have tried, but the time spent locking onto their lifesigns and transporting aboard were precious seconds needed to escape. Faced with the tough call, she elected to take the sure thing and waste no time retreating, saving the lives of all those aboard the Hammond.

Kymm writes: “Why would the connection not break when Telford/Rush died?”

Answer: Another incident that points to the possibility that, rather than simply severing the connection, killing one will kill both.

Former SGU Watcher writes: “No explaination why the Lucian Alliance would want to go to Destiny when it is known to them it will be a one way trip with only a 0.0001% chance they can return. What could they gain by going there?”

Answer: Just because an explanation isn’t immediately offered doesn’t mean one doesn’t exist.

Former SGU Watcher writes: “With the LA knowing the situation aboard the Destiny from Telford, they took even LESS equipment and supplies than the humans from Icarus?”

Anwer: Because, like the humans from Icarus Base, while they may have planned to head through the gate at some point, they didn’t plan on doing it so soon. The attack on the base was unexpected and they were forced to escape through the gate with what they had at hand.

HBMC writes: “

The way the Lucian Alliance succeeded in Incursion 1 was just absurd, especially when you consider at the start of the ep we saw it was possible to have a person unconscious on the ground after a few mins of venting air.

You vent the air for half that amount of time, and every LA member is then on the ground gasping for air, which incapacitates them, which then allows Young’s group to rush in and take them all without firing a shot.”

Answer: Ah, the benefits of Monday morning quaterbacking. Young vents the atmosphere in Telford’s quarters in order to kill him – bring him to the brink and back – because he has no other options. That is the only proven way to overcome the brainwashing. And there was no guarantee it would even work.

The same logic would apply to the attackers in the gate room. Yes, he could have vented the atmosphere immediately and killed them as per his initial plan, but when he saw Telford come through the gate, he elected to offer the Lucian Alliance the opportunity to surrender. It wouldn’t have cost him anything but time and could well have saved Telford’s life. If they’d refused, he would simply go back to Plan A and vent the atmosphere – which he does, but too late because the attackers have technology he wasn’t expecting them to have.

Immediately venting the atmosphere and waiting until they were presumably incapacitated would have made even less sense. How would you know who is incapacitated and who isn’t incapacitated? How could you be certain that some Lucian Alliance members couldn’t be holding their breath, playing possum, in the same amount of time it would take for Telford to suffocate?

HBMC writes: “Sure, Telford is gasping for air alongside them, but really, removing the oxygen from a room doesn’t kill people instantly. 20 seconds would’ve been enough time.”

Answer: But the Lucian Alliance is still armed. Why risk it when you can either: a) give them the opportunity to surrender and save Telford or b) simply vent the atmosphere and kill them all?

imadaman writes: “Why didn’t the F-302 pilots use the Hyperdrive on the ships to jump out from the AoE? (Area of Explosion)”

Answer: Presumably they believed they could make it back to the ship in time or their hyperdrive engines could have been damaged in the attack.

jinx writes: “Why is the “Lootin’ Liance” using earth style weapons?”

Answer: The Alliance, as the name implies, is made up of a coalition of various groups, so it’s very likely they’ll have access to very different weapons and resources.

jinx also writes: “What was the purpose of the Camille character…”

Answer: She is the one pushing for negotiation in order to save the lives of the hostages. And we’ll see her step up next episode as well.

kabra writes: “ So just to make sure I got this correct, Telford is now aboard Destiny physically and mentally? So how does this open the doors for more Destiny/Earth travel????”

Answer: It doesn’t. The power source – the planet – was destroyed. But, to answer your first question – yes, Telford is now aboard Destiny.

Dodoalda writes: “

1) Did LA guys found those “door openers” somewhere or they just created them using Telford’s informations about the Destiny he told them?

2) Is that elevator mechanical or it’s more like SGA’s transporters? [...]”

Answers: 1) Telford was unaware they possessed this technology.

2) Mechanical. And it can go sideways! [...]

Major D. Davis writes: “Im like CUT THE CONNECTION AND THEN VENT THE ATMOSPHERE! Then revive telford like you did at the beginning of the episode.”

Answer: As I already said – easier said than done. Just because it worked the first time doesn’t mean it would the second. Sometimes, attempts to ressucitate people don’t work – and they stay dead. Given the information Young had, he lost nothing by giving the LA an opportunity to surrender. What he wasn’t banking on was the technology they possessed. They surprised him. Happens in battle a lot.

kk222 writes: “why didn’t they just vent the atmosphere, and as the Luciens were grasping for air, go in, shoot them one by one in the back of the head, easy picking”

Answer: Except that they’re all armed and extremely dangerous. Wouldn’t it be easier to just vent the atmosphere and kill them that way?

lk222 also writes: “ or just station soldiers behind/sightly to the side of the stargate, so as the lucians came out one by one, they can be shot in the back.. as they are struggling to get up… why give the enemies the time to regroup and form an assault?”

Answer: Again, why put lives at risk? Why put your men in potential harm’s way when you can simply vent the atmosphere from outside the room?

lkk222 also writes: “not enough dead people! not enough dead people!!!”

Answer: Our guys were in retreat while their guys were looking to take hostages rather than kill.

Brandon Williford writes: “Did you have any idea that it would end up being so much fun when you were bashing your head against the keyboard?”

Answer: It’s always a lot more fun than bashing your head against a keyboard. Also, great responses to some of the questions asked – particularly to the individual outraged by the fact that we haven’t immediately explained why the Lucian Alliance wants Destiny.

Kevin writes: “Young vents Telford’s room to undo the brainwashing and manages to revive him…yet doesn’t vent the gateroom the moment the L.A invades for concern over Rush/Telford. He could’ve vented the room and tried reviving Telford again..no 100% certainty it’d work but Telford would have understood the risks. Much better to do that then allow armed boarders to gain a foothold.”

Answer: Again, this is Monday morning quarterbacking. You’re criticizing Young’s decision with the knowledge of what happened. He didn’t have that luxury. Given everything he knew at the time, it would have cost nothing to give them the opportunity to surrender. He could have simply vented the atmosphere anyway if they’d refused.

Also, given the amount of time it took for Telford to collapse when he was losing oxygen, it’s more than likely the Lucian Alliance would have been able to get those doors open anyway.
http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/2010/06/05/june-5-2010-working-with-john-scalzi-an-incursion-heavy-mailbag/

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 05:51 PM
http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/2010/06/05/june-5-2010-working-with-john-scalzi-an-incursion-heavy-mailbag/

again, this is Monday morning quarterbacking. You’re criticizing Young’s decision with the knowledge of what happened. He didn’t have that luxury.yes to all this, especially on Young. When you think about what Young knew, he didn't have a lot to go on and probably even less time to work with

EllieVee
June 5th, 2010, 05:54 PM
yes to all this, especially on Young. When you think about what Young knew, he didn't have a lot to go on and probably even less time to work with

Oh, but according to one of the many torture threads, Young knew everything.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 05:56 PM
Oh, but according to one of the many torture threads, Young knew everything.

there's a difference between knowing an invasion is coming and knowing exactly what the invaders are going to bring with them and you should know that

jmoz
June 5th, 2010, 05:58 PM
yes to all this, especially on Young. When you think about what Young knew, he didn't have a lot to go on and probably even less time to work with

It was still sorta bad writing if that part provokes that many repeated questions from several fans. And he's clearly going to have to defend it more often.

EllieVee
June 5th, 2010, 06:00 PM
there's a difference between knowing an invasion is coming and knowing exactly what the invaders are going to bring with them and you should know that

I think you should go reacquaint yourself with some of the nonsensical posts on that thread. I think those who suggested that pulling the stones and getting Rush back would have given Young the information on when the invasion was coming have been vindicated and in pulling the stones, it would also have answered some of these other questions as well. Young made (yet another) stupid mistake in not doing so.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 06:02 PM
It was still sorta bad writing if that part provokes that many repeated questions from several fans. And he's clearly going to have to defend it more often.

I suppose I don't see it as bad writing. In fact, an instant fix that would solve all their problems is more magical thinking and bad writing but that's just me. Like the incident with Telford, Young will only have to explain if he's proven wrong and we still have at least one more episode in this particular arc to have that happen. It's like only watching half the movie and walking out of the theater pissed that the story didn't make any sense

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 06:03 PM
I think you should go reacquaint yourself with some of the nonsensical posts on that thread. I think those who suggested that pulling the stones and getting Rush back would have given Young the information on when the invasion was coming have been vindicated and in pulling the stones, it would also have answered some of these other questions as well. Young made (yet another) stupid mistake in not doing so.

you and I are never going to agree on Young, EllieVee. Leave it at that.

EllieVee
June 5th, 2010, 06:05 PM
I suppose I don't see it as bad writing. In fact, an instant fix that would solve all their problems is more magical thinking and bad writing but that's just me. Like the incident with Telford, Young will only have to explain if he's proven wrong and we still have at least one more episode in this particular arc to have that happen. It's like only watching half the movie and walking out of the theater pissed that the story didn't make any sense

He has been proven wrong. Again and again. It seems that even O'Neill is getting a clue on this.


you and I are never going to agree on Young, EllieVee. Leave it at that.

I don't comment to change fixed minds.

kwlafayette
June 5th, 2010, 06:16 PM
One of the weakest episodes of the series in my opinion. Young is clearly unfit for command, he took sure victory, and snatched defeat right from its jaws, at considerable effort. It is pretty clear why Wray and rush attempted to take control of the ship, eventually, Young is going to get every single one of them killed, through sheer stupidity.

It was so simple, they had a good plan. They did not even have to evacuate all the air, just take it down to top of mount Everest levels. Then, unless the LA is all Sherpas, they are going to be weakened and easy to take down. I do not know why anyone is loyal to Young. He reminds me of the nude CO in "Siege of Firebase Gloria (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098328/)", who spent all his time looking at Playboys in his bunker, and the same fate should befall Young pretty quick (hint, friendly fire).

Redhooks
June 5th, 2010, 06:19 PM
Also, given the amount of time it took for Telford to collapse when he was losing oxygen, it’s more than likely the Lucian Alliance would have been able to get those doors open anyway.
http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/2010/06/05/june-5-2010-working-with-john-scalzi-an-incursion-heavy-mailbag/
I would have liked to see the episode have been written this way where Young did start venting the room, but the LA people with their lock pick mechanisms negate the venting by moving into other rooms. At least it wouldn't have made Young look dumb.

I'm sorry to say that I don't agree with JM's "Monday morning quarterbacking" analogy. It sounds like more of a excuse on his part to me. This episode could have been structured so much better in my view, but wasn't.

Also with JM's comment about the reason the LA wanting the Destiny not being immediately known is fine in my view as long as someone within the show is asking the same question. Why no character brought this up is one other reason I think the episode ended up being weak. We don't have to be told, but at least the question shoud have been asked by someone. It could have been a one or two sentence exchange between Young and Telford after the brainwashing was gone. Telford could have simply stated that it was one of the things that Kiva was keeping to herself and would not tell him.

Kaiphantom
June 5th, 2010, 06:30 PM
JM has written some good episodes before, but he should take it as a hint if so many (including Jack O'Neill!) are calling Young out on this. It's basic knowledge that a human without air *will* pass out within a few minutes. Some people can hold their breath for up to 5 minutes, but that takes *heavy* training. At best, someone can probably only hold their breath for up to two minutes.

Out of all those LA guys, one, maybe two could probably hold their breath that long, or have the presence of mind to *know* the atmosphere was being vented and thus hold their breath. Odds are, they only would have made the connection when they were gasping for breath for a little bit. They might even just assume that it's just the air being thin on Destiny naturally.

But here's the thing: someone can still be revived after 5 minutes without oxygen. That's more that enough time to knock *everyone* out, as surely as if you gassed the room. Start venting the room after about 3 minutes. 1 minute to get all the air out, 2-3 minutes to know *for sure* that everyone is knocked out. For giggles, you wait another 2 minutes, then enter. As soon as someone shows signs of moving, you shoot them. Yes, there is a *chance* that someone could be holding their breath, and may get a shot off; but even if he manages to hit someone before he's shot attempting to get up, there are the flak vests and someone who is shot can still be saved.

War isn't pretty, and is never 100% safe. The military should know this, and be prepared to take those steps to safeguard the lives of the people they have sworn to protect. If they can't do that role, they are unfit for it. You can't play things 100% safe; there is no such thing.

You can derogatorily refer to it as Monday morning armchair quarterbacking, but based on everything known at the time, you do not take chances with a hostile inbound enemy force. Shoot first, ask questions later. If you do so, you give them the chance to strike first or do something you don't expect, like they did.

That said, I know the purpose of this episode was to get the LA onto the ship. Just like the first episode's role was to get the first group onto the ship, so Rush had to do something stupid as well. The issue is, Rush's actions in the first episode are at least plausible. Young's actions, in this episode, are not. The moment he saw Telford, he should have ordered the stones disconnected and begun venting the room. Or start venting the instant the stargate shuts down.

Yes, the LA has it's door openers, but by the time they figured out what was going on and got them in place, the LA would have been severely weakened by the lack of oxygen that any ensuing firefight would have gone badly against them.

There is no reason why he should have hesitated in venting the room.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 5th, 2010, 06:31 PM
He has been proven wrong. Again and again. It seems that even O'Neill is getting a clue on this.



I don't comment to change fixed minds.

the ignore feature is there for a reason, perhaps you should consider using it

EllieVee
June 5th, 2010, 06:37 PM
the ignore feature is there for a reason, perhaps you should consider using it

Why would I? I have nothing against you.

Shan Bruce Lee
June 5th, 2010, 06:55 PM
like i know, this LA stuff is a pain in the neckta thats what it is. coz i though LA wanted power not explore galaxies.

These villains are multi-dimensional.


#1. She ordered Rush to dial. What good would it have done? LA wouldn't have been able to get to Destiny, and the SGC would have gained control of an Icarus Planet to send supplies to Destiny.

#2. Venting the atmosphere was a good plan. I was merely pointing out that there were several good ideas, all of which would have had a 100% chance of success. Where Young dropped the idiot ball, was not doing, or severing the stone connection so he could, the instant he saw Telford in the gate room. Venting the atmosphere would *not* have killed Telford. 1 minute to vent, 1 minute for people to begin passing out, wait another 2-3 minutes for good measure, then storm in, revive Telford, get the weapons out of the way and start reviving as many people as you can and keeping them as prisoners (or not).

It's such a perfect plan, it takes an idiot to screw it up. Good thing we have Young on board. No, he's not perfect, and yes, people do make mistakes. We already know Young isn't perfect; but he has the lives of everyone on-board in his hands and he insists on being head honcho; with great power comes great responsibility. If he can't handle it, he should step down and let someone else do it.

When the president of the US starts a war that costs billions of dollars and millions of lives, and drops taxes so we have trillions of dollars in debt, do you just go, "Oh well, he's human and not perfect, because that excuses everything" ? No, you call him for what it is: an idiot making stupid decisions.

And having seen Incursion part II, let me say that his idiocy only gets worse. You're in for more wallbangers.

1. I think you missed the part where I pointed out that she'd just shut it down and make him dial again.

2. Cutting the connection wouldn't have made a difference. I don't even see why you think it would. There's still a person there. And you give the exact reason why venting the atmosphere with either of them in the room was a bad idea... you can't even estimate how long to wait after they've passed out before storming the room.

Annnnd comparing Young's decision to Bush's poor war strategies is a huge leap. They're not even in the same ballpark.

Kaiphantom
June 5th, 2010, 07:10 PM
1. I think you missed the part where I pointed out that she'd just shut it down and make him dial again.

Yes, but it would have bought time for the SG units to advance on the base. And maybe she wouldn't have realized he dialed a different planet, in which case they all would have ended up on a different planet. But it's not too big of a deal.


2. Cutting the connection wouldn't have made a difference. I don't even see why you think it would. There's still a person there. And you give the exact reason why venting the atmosphere with either of them in the room was a bad idea... you can't even estimate how long to wait after they've passed out before storming the room.

Yes, you can. Basic medical knowledge. They said it would take 1 minute to vent the atmosphere. Given the large number of people, and the small volume of the room, the air would have been used up within another minute. After that, people start dropping and losing strength. 1 minute later, and everyone is on the floor, unable to move, gasping for breath. 2 minutes later, and they are all out like a light. This is basic knowledge about human physiology.


Annnnd comparing Young's decision to Bush's poor war strategies is a huge leap. They're not even in the same ballpark.

Size is relative. What was being argued was that "Can't a guy just make a mistake? Does he have to be perfect? Give him a break!" Young's mistakes were very deliberate, just like Bush's. They were both bad. And yet we're expected to give Young a pass? Nope, not gonna do it. Young is obviously not perfect, as he's screwed up several times before. Him getting this right and successfully dealing with the alliance would not indicate he was perfect at all. It would just mean his character is growing.

At the start of the series, I liked Young. By the end of the light, I was starting to question him, and over the episodes my opinion of him dropped; the low point being the end of Justice. But after Divided, it started going up again because he appeared to be trying to do the right thing. After this episode, my opinion of him is no longer low... I just think of him as an idiot who can't do anything right. Maybe Wray or Rush wouldn't do any better, but at this point, it would be damn hard to see how they could do worse.

The guy wants his power; he better show why he deserves it.

Shan Bruce Lee
June 5th, 2010, 07:11 PM
It was still sorta bad writing if that part provokes that many repeated questions from several fans. And he's clearly going to have to defend it more often.

It's not bad writing when you consider the negatives.


I would have liked to see the episode have been written this way where Young did start venting the room, but the LA people with their lock pick mechanisms negate the venting by moving into other rooms. At least it wouldn't have made Young look dumb.

I'm sorry to say that I don't agree with JM's "Monday morning quarterbacking" analogy. It sounds like more of a excuse on his part to me. This episode could have been structured so much better in my view, but wasn't.

Also with JM's comment about the reason the LA wanting the Destiny not being immediately known is fine in my view as long as someone within the show is asking the same question. Why no character brought this up is one other reason I think the episode ended up being weak. We don't have to be told, but at least the question shoud have been asked by someone. It could have been a one or two sentence exchange between Young and Telford after the brainwashing was gone. Telford could have simply stated that it was one of the things that Kiva was keeping to herself and would not tell him.

But you said yourself the LA would negate the venting by using the lock-pick devices. So we'd still end up in the same place either way.

Shan Bruce Lee
June 5th, 2010, 07:13 PM
Yes, but it would have bought time for the SG units to advance on the base. And maybe she wouldn't have realized he dialed a different planet, in which case they all would have ended up on a different planet. But it's not too big of a deal.



Yes, you can. Basic medical knowledge. They said it would take 1 minute to vent the atmosphere. Given the large number of people, and the small volume of the room, the air would have been used up within another minute. After that, people start dropping and losing strength. 1 minute later, and everyone is on the floor, unable to move, gasping for breath. 2 minutes later, and they are all out like a light. This is basic knowledge about human physiology.

And some are dead and some aren't and you still have to turn the air back on before your troops can enter etc, etc..

kwlafayette
June 5th, 2010, 07:15 PM
I would have liked to see the episode have been written this way where Young did start venting the room, but the LA people with their lock pick mechanisms negate the venting by moving into other rooms. At least it wouldn't have made Young look dumb.

I'm sorry to say that I don't agree with JM's "Monday morning quarterbacking" analogy. It sounds like more of a excuse on his part to me. This episode could have been structured so much better in my view, but wasn't.

Also with JM's comment about the reason the LA wanting the Destiny not being immediately known is fine in my view as long as someone within the show is asking the same question. Why no character brought this up is one other reason I think the episode ended up being weak. We don't have to be told, but at least the question shoud have been asked by someone. It could have been a one or two sentence exchange between Young and Telford after the brainwashing was gone. Telford could have simply stated that it was one of the things that Kiva was keeping to herself and would not tell him.

Just one of the weak points. The second question Rush should have asked, after "why didn't you vent the gate room", was, "why hasn't anyone relieved you of command". What did he give them, 35 minutes of sitting in the gate room, to recover and get organized, before he finally gets around to giving the command? Once they knew the LA were coming, they should have simply sealed the gate room, and left it in vacuum till further notice. You can go in with space suits and rescue one or two individuals for questioning even, if you feel the need.

EllieVee
June 5th, 2010, 07:20 PM
Just one of the weak points. The second question Rush should have asked, after "why didn't you vent the gate room", was, "why hasn't anyone relieved you of command". What did he give them, 35 minutes of sitting in the gate room, to recover and get organized, before he finally gets around to giving the command? Once they knew the LA were coming, they should have simply sealed the gate room, and left it in vacuum till further notice. You can go in with space suits and rescue one or two individuals for questioning even, if you feel the need.

Maybe that's what Rush is asking in this pic from Incursion 2 ...

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/6569/herewegoherewegohereweg.jpg

the fifth man
June 5th, 2010, 07:37 PM
Rush does know how to push Young's buttons.

Kaiphantom
June 5th, 2010, 07:40 PM
And some are dead and some aren't and you still have to turn the air back on before your troops can enter etc, etc..

Yes, some are dead, but that is what happens in a battle; you at least did it without wasting ammo. Turning the air back on inside isn't a big deal; it would only take maybe 10 seconds to reestablish normal atmosphere, and you can at least save Telford while getting all their weapons out of the way, and reviving people as you can.

Edit: Heck, while we're on the subject of room venting, I'll state right now it was a bad plan. Why? Because a good military commander should have assumed that an invading force would come armed with bombs. Explosive devices. Room starts to vent? They just blow open a door. I'm damn surprised the LA came without such things (unless they have, and we just haven't seen yet).

So I stand by my decision of: sever the stones, vent the room. Or station guards in the room and shoot(or club) people as they come through. They are in no shape to fight back upon being tossed through the gate, disoriented. Either way is a risk, but the point is: you do not hesitate.

Blackhole
June 5th, 2010, 07:50 PM
JM has written some good episodes before, but he should take it as a hint if so many (including Jack O'Neill!) are calling Young out on this. It's basic knowledge that a human without air *will* pass out within a few minutes. Some people can hold their breath for up to 5 minutes, but that takes *heavy* training. At best, someone can probably only hold their breath for up to two minutes.

Out of all those LA guys, one, maybe two could probably hold their breath that long, or have the presence of mind to *know* the atmosphere was being vented and thus hold their breath. Odds are, they only would have made the connection when they were gasping for breath for a little bit. They might even just assume that it's just the air being thin on Destiny naturally.

But here's the thing: someone can still be revived after 5 minutes without oxygen. That's more that enough time to knock *everyone* out, as surely as if you gassed the room. Start venting the room after about 3 minutes. 1 minute to get all the air out, 2-3 minutes to know *for sure* that everyone is knocked out. For giggles, you wait another 2 minutes, then enter. As soon as someone shows signs of moving, you shoot them. Yes, there is a *chance* that someone could be holding their breath, and may get a shot off; but even if he manages to hit someone before he's shot attempting to get up, there are the flak vests and someone who is shot can still be saved.

War isn't pretty, and is never 100% safe. The military should know this, and be prepared to take those steps to safeguard the lives of the people they have sworn to protect. If they can't do that role, they are unfit for it. You can't play things 100% safe; there is no such thing.

You can derogatorily refer to it as Monday morning armchair quarterbacking, but based on everything known at the time, you do not take chances with a hostile inbound enemy force. Shoot first, ask questions later. If you do so, you give them the chance to strike first or do something you don't expect, like they did.

That said, I know the purpose of this episode was to get the LA onto the ship. Just like the first episode's role was to get the first group onto the ship, so Rush had to do something stupid as well. The issue is, Rush's actions in the first episode are at least plausible. Young's actions, in this episode, are not. The moment he saw Telford, he should have ordered the stones disconnected and begun venting the room. Or start venting the instant the stargate shuts down.

Yes, the LA has it's door openers, but by the time they figured out what was going on and got them in place, the LA would have been severely weakened by the lack of oxygen that any ensuing firefight would have gone badly against them.

There is no reason why he should have hesitated in venting the room.

What happens if the LA have short term breathing apparatus with them? Young vents the atmosphere they put on their equipment and don't go down and Telford's body dies killing both of them? Besides if they were all disabled then what happens for the next two episodes? Young didn't vent the room because the writers didn't write it that way. Imo trying to suggest he is incompetent is over analyzing the episode.

GateroomGuard
June 5th, 2010, 08:03 PM
Maybe that's what Rush is asking in this pic from Incursion 2 ...

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/6569/herewegoherewegohereweg.jpg

There are so many captions I'm thinking of with that image.

Kaiphantom
June 5th, 2010, 08:04 PM
What happens if the LA have short term breathing apparatus with them?

Then you're down to two or three hostiles, instead of 30? Wait til everyone else is out like a light, and go in guns blazing. You can mow down 2 or 3 people easily enough. And with the stones disconnected, you only lose Telford. Like Sam and the 302's, that's an acceptable loss. Instead, now the LA have 10 hostages.


Besides if they were all disabled then what happens for the next two episodes? Young didn't vent the room because the writers didn't write it that way.

This is a good point. They obviously needed to get the LA onto the ship. I'm merely saying it could have been handled better. Feel free to ask if you want, because I can think of a dozen different ways to do it.


Imo trying to suggest he is incompetent is over analyzing the episode.

Not when Jack all but says it. He *is* incompetent. He has a command he cannot handle, and has proved that time and again. And hey, I was liking the guy lately.

Blackhole
June 5th, 2010, 08:16 PM
This is a good point. They obviously needed to get the LA onto the ship. I'm merely saying it could have been handled better. Feel free to ask if you want, because I can think of a dozen different ways to do it.

From a tactical point of view I agree with you that venting the room would have been a better strategy. I just don't think it was written that way to portray Young as less competent but as a plot device to get LA on the ship for a longer invasion story and to show that Young is not willing to sacrifice lives even when other commanders may have done so in the same situation.

And in all fairness O’Neil is a hypocrite; when the Replicators still had Sam he could have stopped them if he had used his disruptor weapon on their ship before it lifted off; he was unwilling to fire because it would have meant sacrificing her life to do so.

Shan Bruce Lee
June 5th, 2010, 08:40 PM
Yes, some are dead, but that is what happens in a battle; you at least did it without wasting ammo. Turning the air back on inside isn't a big deal; it would only take maybe 10 seconds to reestablish normal atmosphere, and you can at least save Telford while getting all their weapons out of the way, and reviving people as you can.

Edit: Heck, while we're on the subject of room venting, I'll state right now it was a bad plan. Why? Because a good military commander should have assumed that an invading force would come armed with bombs. Explosive devices. Room starts to vent? They just blow open a door. I'm damn surprised the LA came without such things (unless they have, and we just haven't seen yet).

So I stand by my decision of: sever the stones, vent the room. Or station guards in the room and shoot(or club) people as they come through. They are in no shape to fight back upon being tossed through the gate, disoriented. Either way is a risk, but the point is: you do not hesitate.

yeah, you're not wasting ammo until one of those b*******s pops up and starts firing on you. Then you're wasting who knows how much.

And they did come armed with devices... the devices that they used to unlock the doors. That's the whole point. A key that unlocks any door nullifies a vented atmosphere.