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View Full Version : Chromosomes??? how is that the answer?



Duneknight
April 24th, 2010, 06:39 PM
im not sure if i got that part. something about neural signature thing. so ancients had more than 46 chromosomes and thats why Rush cant control Destiny?

jelgate
April 24th, 2010, 06:43 PM
No. The numerical code is significant to some portion of genetic code. Think of your GW password. It has some significance to you. Thats the point in that the password Destiny is somewhat related to a genetic code on the Ancient's genome.

Coronach
April 24th, 2010, 06:48 PM
im not sure if i got that part. something about neural signature thing. so ancients had more than 46 chromosomes and thats why Rush cant control Destiny?

I don't think it was ever said that the Ancients didn't have 46 chromosomes as well. I think it's more to do with the idea of there being a specific (or several specific) genetic markers that must be present to activate Destiny.

Gollumpus
April 24th, 2010, 07:31 PM
And to expand on what I believe the others are saying, these markers should be something which are common to all Ancients. It is now merely a rather lengthy search (for which Rush has written a program) to go through all of the combinations. Now as long as they actually have a completely accurate listing of the Ancients genetic code they're, cuz I'm not sure that having the Ancient Gene or getting the shot will do it.

regards,
G.

jsonitsac
April 24th, 2010, 07:34 PM
So I wonder if Destiny is keyed to a specific Ancient.

Stormtrooper
April 24th, 2010, 07:44 PM
I think they should concentrate their efforts on the X chromosome. The "dream" seemed to point to Rush's wife all the time as if he should pay more attention to her. That can't be a coincidence.

K^2
April 24th, 2010, 07:49 PM
No, no, no.

They specifically state that Destiny IS NOT keyed to a genetic sequence of any kind.

What's preventing Rush from taking complete control of Destiny's systems is an encryption. As in discussion with students, it's impossible to break a complex code if you don't have some sort of a reference. Now they know that the code is based on genetic sequences of Ancients, and that gives them a strategy for breaking encryption.

Duneknight
April 24th, 2010, 07:50 PM
why isnt having the Ancient Gene not gonna do it? is Destiny's access more complicated than Atlantis's? and once Rush finds those specific genes, will he use it for gene therapy or will it be in the form of a password type of thing?

Coronach
April 24th, 2010, 07:53 PM
No, no, no.

They specifically state that Destiny IS NOT keyed to a genetic sequence of any kind.

What's preventing Rush from taking complete control of Destiny's systems is an encryption. As in discussion with students, it's impossible to break a complex code if you don't have some sort of a reference. Now they know that the code is based on genetic sequences of Ancients, and that gives them a strategy for breaking encryption.

Hmm, really? I only watched the episode once so far, and it was much earlier this morning. If this is the case, then I take back what I implied about it being keyed to a genetic sequence. What you said actually makes more sense in context of the timeline of the Ancients.

Assuming you are correct, thanks for pointing this out. :)

Coronach
April 24th, 2010, 07:54 PM
why isnt having the Ancient Gene not gonna do it? is Destiny's access more complicated than Atlantis's? and once Rush finds those specific genes, will he use it for gene therapy or will it be in the form of a password type of thing?

Destiny is older than Atlantis, so it actually makes sense that it wouldn't use the Ancient gene (which I assume you mean the ATA gene), as that was likely a technology that is relatively more recent.

In ways, it's more sophisticated than what the Destiny's apparently seems to be.

Gollumpus
April 24th, 2010, 08:04 PM
So it is not having the gene which makes it work, it's knowing the genetic code sequence and then entering its numerical equivalent into the system.

regards,
G.

jelgate
April 24th, 2010, 08:07 PM
Hmm, really? I only watched the episode once so far, and it was much earlier this morning. If this is the case, then I take back what I implied about it being keyed to a genetic sequence. What you said actually makes more sense in context of the timeline of the Ancients.

Assuming you are correct, thanks for pointing this out. :)
Brody said the code was numerical meaning that said code is actually inputed into the code. The chromosome clue shows that the context of said code is releated to genetic code

Coronach
April 24th, 2010, 08:10 PM
Brody said the code was numerical meaning that said code is actually inputed into the code. The chromosome clue shows that the context of said code is releated to genetic code

This actually makes a lot more sense, because I was pretty confused as to why the Ancients would have used a (seemingly) more complicated activator gene like they did with the ATA gene in Atlantis.

Glad that's cleared up for me. :)

Quadhelix
April 24th, 2010, 08:14 PM
why isnt having the Ancient Gene not gonna do it? is Destiny's access more complicated than Atlantis's? and once Rush finds those specific genes, will he use it for gene therapy or will it be in the form of a password type of thing?
From what I can tell so far, the answer to your third question answers your first question: the necessary element is a password, which has nothing to do with the user's genetics. I say this because Rush (among others?) has repeatedly mentioned that they lacked the passcode to access the ship's systems (for example, "Earth").

In that case, having the ATA gene doesn't help at all, because the system does not check for it: the password itself is both necessary (you cannot access the ship's systems without) and sufficient (if you have it, you do not need anything else).

In this case, it seems that the Ancients selected a password that was somehow connected to their genetics. However, this does not change the fact that it is a password.

wingsabre
April 24th, 2010, 08:46 PM
I think the password is simply the numerical sequence for the ATA Gene. Instead of trying to randomly pick a code, it might make more sense to contact Earth and get the genetic sequence from them. Then just try to assign a numerical value for the 21 amino acid. It's somewhat logical that the Ancients would number the amino acids based on the number of carbons, or molecular weight, so establishing a cipher shouldn't be that difficult.

K^2
April 24th, 2010, 08:48 PM
They already stated that it's not ATA. It's some other portion of Ancients' genome, hence requiring a simulation to get the code.

jsonitsac
April 24th, 2010, 08:53 PM
I think the password is simply the numerical sequence for the ATA Gene. Instead of trying to randomly pick a code, it might make more sense to contact Earth and get the genetic sequence from them. Then just try to assign a numerical value for the 21 amino acid. It's somewhat logical that the Ancients would number the amino acids based on the number of carbons, or molecular weight, so establishing a cipher shouldn't be that difficult.

Except for the fact that they've explicitly stated that Destiny predates ATA.

the fifth man
April 24th, 2010, 08:54 PM
I wonder how long it will be before they break the code?

Stormtrooper
April 24th, 2010, 09:46 PM
I think it's time to take a closer look at the Atlantis database.

wingsabre
April 24th, 2010, 10:27 PM
Except for the fact that they've explicitly stated that Destiny predates ATA.

I didn't take what they said literally. My interpretation is the systems predates ATA, meaning you can operate the systems without having an ATA gene, but you can access all the systems without knowledge of the ATA gene, and by default the genetic sequence for the ATA gene. I'm assuming that this is a form of ATA technology that eventually evolved to become the ATA sensing technology. Instead of sensing the ATA gene, you have to input the ATA sequence instead.

s09119
April 24th, 2010, 10:37 PM
I didn't take what they said literally. My interpretation is the systems predates ATA, meaning you can operate the systems without having an ATA gene, but you can access all the systems without knowledge of the ATA gene, and by default the genetic sequence for the ATA gene. I'm assuming that this is a form of ATA technology that eventually evolved to become the ATA sensing technology. Instead of sensing the ATA gene, you have to input the ATA sequence instead.

I like that theory.

thekillman
April 25th, 2010, 06:32 AM
ancients have 46 chromosomes. humans and ancients can interbreed. QED.

the ATA gene is probably a bad name for it, since a it was stated in human that it looks for markers and in SGA you had a degrading ATA gene. if a gene degrades it's simply not the gene anymore. so i think there';s more than one ATA gene.


the code might be a kind of universal ancient genome formula, like the sequence of their genes or so. the significance of the discovery is simple: previously it could've been anything. now we know it has to do with their genes

Phenomenological
April 25th, 2010, 06:45 AM
I'm not sure why the ancients would bother doing this really. What's wrong with just using a random string of numbers. It's no harder to remember or write down than a code based on their genome, and much easier to generate.

Quadhelix
April 25th, 2010, 07:03 AM
I didn't take what they said literally. My interpretation is the systems predates ATA, meaning you can operate the systems without having an ATA gene, but you can access all the systems without knowledge of the ATA gene, and by default the genetic sequence for the ATA gene. I'm assuming that this is a form of ATA technology that eventually evolved to become the ATA sensing technology. Instead of sensing the ATA gene, you have to input the ATA sequence instead. Except that, based on Beckett said in "Hide and Seek," I'm guessing the point of the ATA gene wasn't as a security encryption or anything like that, but rather a physical necessity for using most types of Ancient neural-interface technology.

If that is true, then they would have no reason to use ATA specifically as the password because, at that point, the gene itself had no particular significance (and may not have even existed yet, if it was an engineered gene).




I'm not sure why the ancients would bother doing this really. What's wrong with just using a random string of numbers. It's no harder to remember or write down than a code based on their genome, and much easier to generate. So that they could store it in an unencrypted database (the Repository Chair) without actually storing the code itself in an unencrypted database. It's like one of those "password reminders" that you have in case you forget your password: this would be something that only the Ancients would know that they could use to access the ships systems if the password were ever lost.

hiro
April 25th, 2010, 10:17 AM
I'm not sure why the ancients would bother doing this really. What's wrong with just using a random string of numbers. It's no harder to remember or write down than a code based on their genome, and much easier to generate.


They are the ancients !
I think , as somebody said before , maybe only being there with the appropriate gene is needed to decrypt the ship function .

K^2
April 25th, 2010, 11:35 AM
Yes, Ancient's mind would be capable of processing chair's data directly. There wouldn't be a need for any of that stuff.

Why did they base code/encryption on their genome? Maybe they have foreseen something like this taking place. Maybe not humans exactly, but suppose they expected their distant ancestors be stuck and for some reason unable to use the chair. Coding it based on something they might recognize would give them a way to brake the code. Any other race to stumble upon Destiny wouldn't have a chance.

Avenger
April 25th, 2010, 12:05 PM
It had to be something that, should the code be lost in the time the Destiny was out on its own, the Ancients who gated to the ship, would have been able to figure out on their own.

garhkal
April 25th, 2010, 03:33 PM
So I wonder if Destiny is keyed to a specific Ancient.

Perhaps the one who built it.

wingsabre
April 25th, 2010, 04:21 PM
Except that, based on Beckett said in "Hide and Seek," I'm guessing the point of the ATA gene wasn't as a security encryption or anything like that, but rather a physical necessity for using most types of Ancient neural-interface technology.

If that is true, then they would have no reason to use ATA specifically as the password because, at that point, the gene itself had no particular significance (and may not have even existed yet, if it was an engineered gene).

And Becket could have been wrong, because his assumptions were on what he saw in Atlantis. Things could have been different when they were building the Destiny. A lot of things change over a few thousand years, and what was once useful then could have become taken for granted, or what was not useful then could have evolved to become useful. The set of rules on Atlantis are different than the set of rules on Destiny.

I think the use of an ATA gene sequence for something like Destiny is very logical. If they didn't have the technology to sense the person, then they would have to enter a common genetic sequence to unlock key features. This would be necessary for a ship in foreign and distance space where hostel aliens may potentially take over the ship and either steal advance technology they're not ready for, or gain information about the race that created it and invade them.

Quadhelix
April 25th, 2010, 04:47 PM
And Becket could have been wrong, because his assumptions were on what he saw in Atlantis. Things could have been different when they were building the Destiny. A lot of things change over a few thousand years, and what was once useful then could have become taken for granted, or what was not useful then could have evolved to become useful. I'm not entirely sure what the point of this is.



The set of rules on Atlantis are different than the set of rules on Destiny. You're contradicting yourself here: the only basis that you have for the code being ATA is that that specific gene was needed to activate technology on Atlantis, and thus must also have been necessary to activate technology on the Destiny.



I think the use of an ATA gene sequence for something like Destiny is very logical. If they didn't have the technology to sense the person, then they would have to enter a common genetic sequence to unlock key features. This would be necessary for a ship in foreign and distance space where hostel aliens may potentially take over the ship and either steal advance technology they're not ready for, or gain information about the race that created it and invade them. The point that you are failing to make is why it would be the ATA gene specifically instead of, for example, the gene that codes for melanin or some other random gene.

Or even, for that matter, why it has to be a specific gene instead of larger genetic patterns.

wingsabre
April 25th, 2010, 08:11 PM
You're contradicting yourself here: the only basis that you have for the code being ATA is that that specific gene was needed to activate technology on Atlantis, and thus must also have been necessary to activate technology on the Destiny.

I'm not contradicting myself. There's clear evidence here that the rules that applied for the city ship Atlantis, does not apply here in Destiny. The equipment on Destiny is not as advance as Atlantis, the ability to access key systems are different, and even the way the gate works appear to be different.



The point that you are failing to make is why it would be the ATA gene specifically instead of, for example, the gene that codes for melanin or some other random gene.

Or even, for that matter, why it has to be a specific gene instead of larger genetic patterns.

It doesn't have to be the specific ATA gene sequence. I think it would make sense to try it, but in reality, if it would only make sense to use that if the ATA gene sequence is rather short, and is made up of a few codons. Otherwise, to simply memorize it would be rather difficult, even for Ancients. It could be a larger genetic pattern, I didn't rule that out immediately. What I think could make more sense is if they specifically treat the gene or genes like a gate address. This means, chromosome number, large arm or small arm of the chromosome, then specific locus of the gene. That's about 3 numerical codes, so to make it slightly more complicated they can add the first few codons into the code.

I doubt that the ancients would code for some thing like melanin or some random gene. The gene in question would have to have some significant, so it's either fundamental for ancient life, or something that the ancients uniquely had. Having something fundamental to life would rule out the ATA gene, for one can survive without it, and it's largely vestigial. However, having something like the DNA polymerase, or F0F1 ATP synthase as the gene would be rather ubiquitous, and it wouldn't be that useful as a secret code. For example, all species that we know of utilizes DNA. The Asguard had some common link with Humans, and was one of the reasons why they performed some research on Humans. Picking something very ubiquitous would be like putting a key under the doormat. Even something like melanin wouldn't make much sense, since multiple species has it, and it does not hole that great deal of significance. From a production perspective, it's introduction of techno-babble which is something the producers are trying to avoid. Additionally the Ancients are rather logical in their approach, and so it would make sense that they'd pick something of significance to Ancients, which would appear to be the ATA gene.

Having something like a gene specific to the ancients makes more sense, because you can explain that rather quickly, and it's a useful security code, for aliens that have not seen Ancients would not be able to know where to start.

vszulc
April 25th, 2010, 10:07 PM
Well, let's just hope that the code happens to be the Atlantic gene for hubris or the one they had for overtly ambitious plans, and that Rush happens to have one of those laying around.

Though by the time they come back to pick up the crew, Eli will have probably eaten them all.

pipi
April 26th, 2010, 03:13 AM
The password is "Destiny46". Open sesame! :p

EllieVee
April 26th, 2010, 03:48 AM
And Becket could have been wrong, because his assumptions were on what he saw in Atlantis. Things could have been different when they were building the Destiny. A lot of things change over a few thousand years, and what was once useful then could have become taken for granted, or what was not useful then could have evolved to become useful. The set of rules on Atlantis are different than the set of rules on Destiny.

Except the evidence in the SGA episodes was that you physically had to have the gene in order to operate some of the technology. You can just retcon it because it doesn't suit your theory.


I think the use of an ATA gene sequence for something like Destiny is very logical. If they didn't have the technology to sense the person, then they would have to enter a common genetic sequence to unlock key features. This would be necessary for a ship in foreign and distance space where hostel aliens may potentially take over the ship and either steal advance technology they're not ready for, or gain information about the race that created it and invade them.

And again with the retcon. If people needed the gene to operate the technology on Destiny, nothing would work for them unless they had the gene. Everything on Destiny seems to be far more manual than shifting a couple of crystals around and lighting up a room like Sheppard did.


Except that, based on Beckett said in "Hide and Seek," I'm guessing the point of the ATA gene wasn't as a security encryption or anything like that, but rather a physical necessity for using most types of Ancient neural-interface technology.

Thank you!


If that is true, then they would have no reason to use ATA specifically as the password because, at that point, the gene itself had no particular significance (and may not have even existed yet, if it was an engineered gene).

I always thought it was manufactured during the Wraith war so they couldn't operate Atlantis if they managed to invade. A check of transcripts hasn't shown me anything to confirm that and I haven't seen S1 SGA for a while now.

AVFan
April 26th, 2010, 12:34 PM
The password is "Destiny46". Open sesame! :p

That's a lie. This episode was all a smokescreen. The password is actually 'password'.

hiro
April 26th, 2010, 12:42 PM
That's a lie. This episode was all a smokescreen. The password is actually 'password'.

you're wrong ! the password is 'ynitsed' sure !

kymeric
April 26th, 2010, 02:12 PM
Makes sense to me. Even if some alien species were to gain access to Destiny they would never ever be able to guess that the password was the dna of its creator species, and even if they did they would have no access to that information from across the universe.

garhkal
April 26th, 2010, 04:53 PM
Hence why i thik it is perfectly logical for them to have made the password linked to their genetic make up.

Gollumpus
April 26th, 2010, 05:46 PM
That's a lie. This episode was all a smokescreen. The password is actually 'password'.

Piffle. Everyone knows the password is "friend". The number of letters in friend even divides into 46.

regards,
G.

Wayston
April 28th, 2010, 07:50 AM
why isnt having the Ancient Gene not gonna do it? is Destiny's access more complicated than Atlantis's? and once Rush finds those specific genes, will he use it for gene therapy or will it be in the form of a password type of thing?

1) destiny predates atlantis, hence they don't have the fancy automatic gene verification thingy, destiny's password protection is very much like the one of your own computer
2) atlantis's access is more complicated than destiny, as e.g. the wraith couldn't operate atlantis's technology at all themselves (they could use captured ancients though) whereas I bet they could have cracked the destiny password fairly easily with their level of technology (it is just a numerical sequence), which is probably exactly the reason why the ancients switched away from numerical passwords towards an access method unique to their species

pipi
April 28th, 2010, 05:52 PM
I think it has been established that the Ancient gene is not required to activate anything but since the password is based on the Ancient gene, then if someone onboard Destiny has been given the shot, they can take a blood sample and extract the genome and convert them into numbers to help crack the password. Or the easy way would be to use the stones and get Stargate Command to crack the password given the updated hints.

ngewakl
April 28th, 2010, 10:53 PM
They are going to crack the encryption with Shor's algorithm.

beafly
April 29th, 2010, 07:54 AM
That we could possibly crack the encryption or guess the password a race like the Ancients used to secure their most prized possessions is utterly ridiculous.

garhkal
April 29th, 2010, 03:56 PM
They did it all the time with a lot of other tech though.

pipi
April 30th, 2010, 03:23 AM
That we could possibly crack the encryption or guess the password a race like the Ancients used to secure their most prized possessions is utterly ridiculous.

It's the most likely plot line.

Cory Holmes
April 30th, 2010, 08:40 AM
The part I like the best about this chromosome-based password is that it shows a logical progression in Ancient technology. Their civilization was around for many millions of years and we've seen bits and pieces of technology from various parts (stone pedestals, sports-ticker-like hologram walls, puddle jumpers, city-ships) and it makes sorting out the puzzle a bit... difficult. But by having this little password, it shows that even when Destiny was designed, the Ancients were already thinking along the path that would take them to ATA gene-based technology, the likes of which we see in Atlantis.

I for one like that little nod to timelines and logical progression.

beafly
May 3rd, 2010, 10:37 AM
It's the most likely plot line.

I'd say the story will lead to them cracking the encryption, it's almost a given. Else there is no progression in their ability to control the Destiny.

That doesn't make it any more realistic.

Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble
May 5th, 2010, 09:47 AM
I thought the code had to do with the entire Ancient genome not just the ATA gean. Wouldn't that make it harder as didn't it take us like decade to figure out our genome.

Coronach
May 5th, 2010, 09:53 AM
I thought the code had to do with the entire Ancient genome not just the ATA gean. Wouldn't that make it harder as didn't it take us like decade to figure out our genome.

It does have to do with the entire genome. Yeah, it took about 13 years to have a finished and published copy of the human genome, but that's because sequencing techniques were not as good as they are now. Things can be sequenced in a matter of days (or even less) depending on the organism...and it's only getting faster.

The real problem would be in how the Ancients' genome is actually incorporated into a code. They didn't explain it all that well on the show, and I don't suspect they will. In any case, it's been mentioned that the Ancient genome is probably relatively close to our own. I guess that is the basis Rush is going from, what with the whole 46 chromosome thing.

Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble
May 5th, 2010, 10:03 AM
It does have to do with the entire genome. Yeah, it took about 13 years to have a finished and published copy of the human genome, but that's because sequencing techniques were not as good as they are now. Things can be sequenced in a matter of days (or even less) depending on the organism...and it's only getting faster.

The real problem would be in how the Ancients' genome is actually incorporated into a code. They didn't explain it all that well on the show, and I don't suspect they will. In any case, it's been mentioned that the Ancient genome is probably relatively close to our own. I guess that is the basis Rush is going from, what with the whole 46 chromosome thing.

Cool, green for you :D