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Billz
April 17th, 2010, 03:37 AM
The people that stayed behind on the planet we're not to bright to be honest.

Reasons:
1. It was a artifical planet so there is no way to tell if there wasn't anything dangerous there.
2. They only inhabited a small camp-site. They couldn't have known if there was anyone hostile on the other side of the planet.
3. Fresh water, food, plants with medicinal properties and a almost totally undistrubed planet could mean that it is a 'storage or farm' world that some higher power wouldn't like strangers messing around with it.
4. The Obelisk sent out a huge signal beam that could probably be seen from orbit. Probably some kind of relay communicator embedded witihin the structure, signaling the creators that there were trespassers.

I would have high tailed it outta there!

EDIT: Also, what happened to Senator Armstrong's body when Park and Brody were repairing the damaged shuttle? Was it moved somewhere previous to the episode? Was it flushed out of an air lock?

kirmit
April 17th, 2010, 03:42 AM
All these are true but at the same time it's like they said, these aliens could be friendly and could be their best chance of getting home, they took a chance.

Billz
April 17th, 2010, 03:46 AM
All these are true but at the same time it's like they said, these aliens could be friendly and could be their best chance of getting home, they took a chance.

Anyone with a logical mind would have gathered what evidence they could as to whether the aliens were friendly or not. There was no evidence of the kind on the planet.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 17th, 2010, 03:48 AM
I'm not saying they were stupid but their is another factor they seem to have overlooked. Storing up food for the coming winter. They have no idea when the winter would start or how long winters were on that planet. As such they don't know if it is possible to store enough food to survive the winter there. If the winter lasts eight terrestrial months that's going to require tremendous effort to store away enough food to survive. There do not appear to be any fauna to eat as such it would be purely plant's they'd be surviving on. Without animals to hunt what will they wear when it's cold outside? It's not as though they'd be able to stay inside during the cold month's either. I wonder how long the shuttles life support systems will last.

Now that I give it further consideration staying does seem like a very poor choice.

kirmit
April 17th, 2010, 03:50 AM
Anyone with a logical mind would have gathered what evidence they could as to whether the aliens were friendly or not. There was no evidence of the kind on the planet.

I'm not saying it was the logical choice, I personally would've gone back to the destiny.

Blackhole
April 17th, 2010, 03:55 AM
The people that stayed behind on the planet we're not to bright to be honest.

Reasons:
1. It was a artifical planet so there is no way to tell if there wasn't anything dangerous there.
2. They only inhabited a small camp-site. They couldn't have known if there was anyone hostile on the other side of the planet.
3. Fresh water, food, plants with medicinal properties and a almost totally undistrubed planet could mean that it is a 'storage or farm' world that some higher power wouldn't like strangers messing around with it.
4. The Obelisk sent out a huge signal beam that could probably be seen from orbit. Probably some kind of relay communicator embedded witihin the structure, signaling the creators that there were trespassers.

I would have high tailed it outta there!

EDIT: Also, what happened to Senator Armstrong's body when Park and Brody were repairing the damaged shuttle? Was it moved somewhere previous to the episode? Was it flushed out of an air lock?

The Obelisk was put there for a reason; the likely being as warning to visitors and to signal the builders. Anyone who went to the trouble to build a 2000 foot high monument probably values the planet quite a bit. I would be worried that the Obelisk was a warning to visitors and would want to decipher the likely writings on it before I left anyone there. For all they know it may say stay away or else.

Blackhole
April 17th, 2010, 04:07 AM
I'm not saying they were stupid but their is another factor they seem to have overlooked. Storing up food for the coming winter. They have no idea when the winter would start or how long winters were on that planet. As such they don't know if it is possible to store enough food to survive the winter there. If the winter lasts eight terrestrial months that's going to require tremendous effort to store away enough food to survive. There do not appear to be any fauna to eat as such it would be purely plant's they'd be surviving on. Without animals to hunt what will they wear when it's cold outside? It's not as though they'd be able to stay inside during the cold month's either. I wonder how long the shuttles life support systems will last.

Now that I give it further consideration staying does seem like a very poor choice.

The length and severity of winter is a function of orbit, planet tilt and how hot the star is. With all their exploring Stargate should have likely developed programs that could predict how long and severe winters would be by inputting astronomical data from observations of the planet and star from orbit.

J-Whitt Remastered
April 17th, 2010, 04:46 AM
I'm not saying they were stupid but their is another factor they seem to have overlooked. Storing up food for the coming winter. They have no idea when the winter would start or how long winters were on that planet. As such they don't know if it is possible to store enough food to survive the winter there. If the winter lasts eight terrestrial months that's going to require tremendous effort to store away enough food to survive. There do not appear to be any fauna to eat as such it would be purely plant's they'd be surviving on. Without animals to hunt what will they wear when it's cold outside? It's not as though they'd be able to stay inside during the cold month's either. I wonder how long the shuttles life support systems will last.

Now that I give it further consideration staying does seem like a very poor choice.

I was wondering the same thing about the animals, and clothes situation. It never really occurred to me about storing food for the winter though. The life support would really have to be running all winter. Just the heater. Keep the door closed, use buckets for waste, open the door to dispose of waste at night, all is well.

Commander Zelix
April 17th, 2010, 05:53 AM
The people that stayed behind on the planet we're not to bright to be honest.

Reasons:
1. It was a artifical planet so there is no way to tell if there wasn't anything dangerous there.
2. They only inhabited a small camp-site. They couldn't have known if there was anyone hostile on the other side of the planet.
3. Fresh water, food, plants with medicinal properties and a almost totally undistrubed planet could mean that it is a 'storage or farm' world that some higher power wouldn't like strangers messing around with it.
4. The Obelisk sent out a huge signal beam that could probably be seen from orbit. Probably some kind of relay communicator embedded witihin the structure, signaling the creators that there were trespassers.

I would have high tailed it outta there!

EDIT: Also, what happened to Senator Armstrong's body when Park and Brody were repairing the damaged shuttle? Was it moved somewhere previous to the episode? Was it flushed out of an air lock?
Its a risk but staying on the Destiny is a risk too: Alien attack, lack of resources, no control over the Destiny path, etc.

skarwolf
April 17th, 2010, 05:54 AM
Creating a human friendly planet. What'd the ancients originally intend for the destiny ? To seed human habitable worlds with stargates. Perhaps they're still around and instead of finding new planets they're just making them.... :P

The Swarm
April 17th, 2010, 06:56 AM
The Ancients were advanced indeed, but not even they could have build a solar system...they could have reached that level of tech if they didnt ascend.
The Univeres is supposed to be realy big, we are bound to find more advanced races at some point.

dosed150
April 17th, 2010, 06:58 AM
Anyone with a logical mind would have gathered what evidence they could as to whether the aliens were friendly or not. There was no evidence of the kind on the planet.

well the episode is called faith not logic:)

norph
April 17th, 2010, 07:06 AM
Maybe the obelisk is some form of wormhole teleporter. It was already mention in the show that it's very difficult to create a planet so maybe some advance race drop an obelisk on a habitable planet and use the Obelisk to sort of teleport it to different solar systems (why they would do that would be a good question).

In SG1, during the times they met with Merlin, an obelisk was used to teleport people through an open stargates. Maybe this obelisk is a wormhole generator and a teleporter in one.

That would allow Destiny to maybe encounter the planet again in the future when it teleport ahead of them if they continue with the arc from faith.

The Swarm
April 17th, 2010, 07:06 AM
I would have atacked the Obelisk with the weapon of the shuttle just to get them to show their faces!

Trinary
April 17th, 2010, 10:08 AM
Someone said before they go to the planet, the solar system still new and the earth-like planet should be in molten rock condition. So, the Obelisk should be a device that alter the planet condition temporarily and use the planet geothermal energy to maintain the habitable condition.

The way the obelisk sending out the light to the sky, is very similar to a communication device belong to a humanoid race that SG-1 saved from a dying volcanic planet. A communication device that call the Nox race for help.

garhkal
April 17th, 2010, 10:32 AM
Actually it kind of reminded me of the oblesk from 2001.. That and the one from it's good to be king.

dacooker
April 17th, 2010, 10:42 AM
I would have atacked the Obelisk with the weapon of the shuttle just to get them to show their faces!

This


Actually it kind of reminded me of the oblesk from 2001.. That and the one from it's good to be king.

And this

garhkal
April 17th, 2010, 12:28 PM
Thanks Dacooker.

skunkworker51
April 17th, 2010, 01:15 PM
Doesn't the obelisk remind anyone else of forerunner tech from halo? It also looks the same too.
Here is a screenshot from halo 1 showing what I am talking about
http://imgur.com/g2Isv.jpg

koroush47
April 17th, 2010, 01:39 PM
All these are true but at the same time it's like they said, these aliens could be friendly and could be their best chance of getting home, they took a chance.

Based on all Alien encounters, the chances of the aliens being friendly are 1 to 200.

koroush47
April 17th, 2010, 01:40 PM
The obelisk looked more like the Washington memorial to me.

But both shoot lasers, so thats cool.

Lord Hurin
April 17th, 2010, 02:36 PM
The obelisk looked more like the Washington memorial to me.

But both shoot lasers, so thats cool.

I hope you're referring to the SG:U obelisk and the Forerunner thing from Halo. If not, then I need to make a trip to DC :D

Replicator Todd
April 17th, 2010, 02:39 PM
Another Halo comparison in Stargate, is it me or is there sure a lot of those? I'm not complaining!

Commander Zelix
April 17th, 2010, 04:12 PM
EDIT: Also, what happened to Senator Armstrong's body when Park and Brody were repairing the damaged shuttle? Was it moved somewhere previous to the episode? Was it flushed out of an air lock?
He was put beside Spencer's body.

Pharaoh Atem
April 17th, 2010, 04:16 PM
Anyone with a logical mind would have gathered what evidence they could as to whether the aliens were friendly or not. There was no evidence of the kind on the planet.

it's fresh air and solid ground under your feet. some people take confort in that

SGA Sheppard
April 17th, 2010, 05:27 PM
Yes that large tower looked just like a Halo Structure. I have seen structures like that in Halo 1 and Halo 3. Maybe Halo 2 not sure.
I think the Forerunners built that planet :)
and the people that stayed behind where killed by the flood :D

Phenom
April 17th, 2010, 10:57 PM
Anyone with a logical mind would have gathered what evidence they could as to whether the aliens were friendly or not. There was no evidence of the kind on the planet.

What evidence would you expect to find if they were hostile? Spent rounds on the ground, lazer holes in trees perhaps? We are a hostile race but if you put me in a small section of a national park for a month, I doubt I would find evidence of us being dangerous.

evilasgard222
April 17th, 2010, 11:21 PM
I think it was a mistake for them to stay behind. Why? If they are not found by benevolent aliens and do have to live out the rest of thier days there. I'm affraid they don't have the genetic diversity to create a stable genepool.
Does anyone know the final number that stayed behind?

Morganrone93
April 18th, 2010, 02:01 AM
If no woman, was left behind, and the aliens never come, or just ignores them, how are they going to reproduce, create a doable society? They are just going to be figthing for survival forever, and not establish something, at first, a small camp, that turns into a village, city, and so on.

Billz
April 18th, 2010, 04:18 AM
Urm, why was the thread title changed? :confused:
This thread has nothing to do with Forerunners from Halo mythology so WTH?

Ukko
April 18th, 2010, 04:24 AM
Urm, why was the thread title changed? :confused:
This thread has nothing to do with Forerunners from Halo mythology so WTH?

I think its just 2 different threads that have been merged.

Billz
April 18th, 2010, 04:28 AM
I think its just 2 different threads that have been merged.

That doesn't explain why the title was changed.

thekillman
April 18th, 2010, 06:34 AM
the chances of destiny dropping out near a SOL copy, with an EARTH copy in the liquid water region, with earth-like vegetation, to the point where KIWI's are found, with fresh water and no dangerous animals, are so astronomically super uber duper small, the quantumphysical chances of your entire body suddenly existing on the other side of the universe are higher.

Pond Hopper
April 18th, 2010, 09:49 AM
If no woman, was left behind, and the aliens never come, or just ignores them, how are they going to reproduce, create a doable society? They are just going to be figthing for survival forever, and not establish something, at first, a small camp, that turns into a village, city, and so on.

I don't think they were too concerned with creating a society, they just wanted to live out their lives in relative peace. I say relative peace because they could have lived out their lives on Destiny but they wanted more comfort than that.

Why does everyone seem to think that their goal on that planet was to start a civilisation? I've been on three boards now where everyone thought that.

thekillman
April 18th, 2010, 10:29 AM
i'd prefer to die in a paradise than on a ship. besides, they either get rescued by uberaliens or they die of old age on a beautifull heavenly planet

Sp!der
April 18th, 2010, 10:29 AM
i think the ptb put more and more some themes of the lovecraftian universe in the stargate universe, the obelisk could have been build from the "great from the stars"...

ziga1980
April 18th, 2010, 10:34 AM
honestly, the whole consideration about going to the planet in the first place was stupid. if the people who created the solar system are around it wouldn't matter if you're on destiny or on the planet. they could wipe "us" out without any problems since they're far more advanced then ancients were.

as for surviving on the planet, they could just have flown to the other side of the planet during winter. they realized where west is so north and south shouldn't be a problem. no food storing and clothes situation. summer all year long. until the shuttle fails then they're ****ed.

as for the aliens that created the planet being friendly. not likely. they're probably not around however i really hope we meet them. the fact that we ran into blue ones who're hostile is just disturbing. how can the hostile blue aliens exist so close to so advanced friendly aliens. can't be. i sense that the blue ones have either wiped out this aliens or its the other way and there's just a few ships of blue aliens left. would also explain why they're after destiny so desperately. anyways i hope we meet some really advanced mean aliens! i love those. the "smurfs" were not that bad ass. compared to goa'uld and wraith the smurfs are quite friendly.

thekillman
April 18th, 2010, 10:41 AM
honestly, the whole consideration about going to the planet in the first place was stupid. if the people who created the solar system are around it wouldn't matter if you're on destiny or on the planet. they could wipe "us" out without any problems since they're far more advanced then ancients were.


considering that building a planet is logistically a nightmare and building a sun too, whoever built it would come with a gargantuan fleet anyway, so yes, we'd be screwed to hell and back.


as for surviving on the planet, they could just have flown to the other side of the planet during winter. they realized where west is so north and south shouldn't be a problem. no food storing and clothes situation. summer all year long. until the shuttle fails then they're ****ed.

actually just better shelters would've been enough. but in the case it's not, yes the purpose of the shuttle was to find a better place if needed.


as for the aliens that created the planet being friendly. not likely. they're probably not around however i really hope we meet them. the fact that we ran into blue ones who're hostile is just disturbing. how can the hostile blue aliens exist so close to so advanced friendly aliens. can't be. i sense that the blue ones have either wiped out this aliens or its the other way and there's just a few ships of blue aliens left. would also explain why they're after destiny so desperately. anyways i hope we meet some really advanced mean aliens! i love those. the "smurfs" were not that bad ass. compared to goa'uld and wraith the smurfs are quite friendly.

a race advanced enough to build a planet, especially in the logistics part *i think the asgard with no clone problem and no replicator problem could do it though* would be friendly, or more accurately: uncaring. they'd throw us back home just to get rid of our whining and worshiping.

ziga1980
April 18th, 2010, 10:53 AM
a race advanced enough to build a planet, especially in the logistics part *i think the asgard with no clone problem and no replicator problem could do it though* would be friendly, or more accurately: uncaring. they'd throw us back home just to get rid of our whining and worshiping.

maybe asgards could do it, maybe not. the reason that were not there and that the planet was not guarded even by satellites if not by manned ships is scary. i can only think of a few reasons why no aliens were present. they were wiped out or were really busy cracking down on the blue aliens trying to wipe them out once and for all.

Character
April 18th, 2010, 12:49 PM
a race advanced enough to build a planet, especially in the logistics part *i think the asgard with no clone problem and no replicator problem could do it though* would be friendly, or more accurately: uncaring. they'd throw us back home just to get rid of our whining and worshiping.

Advanced doesnt necessarily mean good, after all, its far easier to dump "us" into orbit and let us die/burn up than to transport us billions lightyears, even with wormhole drive.

Interestingly, everyone, the characters included, seem to forget the little problem of not knowing even which direction home is.

skarwolf
April 18th, 2010, 06:17 PM
I'm not 100% on the lore but perhaps the Ancients are still around non-ascended if you know what I mean. Why would this planet be created in Destiny's path ? If the Destiny is super advanced and millions of years old and some of the ancients are still around they'd have technology that we couldn't possibly comprehend... like planet creation for example.

Lord Hurin
April 18th, 2010, 06:20 PM
I'm not 100% on the lore but perhaps the Ancients are still around non-ascended if you know what I mean. Why would this planet be created in Destiny's path ? If the Destiny is super advanced and millions of years old and some of the ancients are still around they'd have technology that we couldn't possibly comprehend... like planet creation for example.

Do we know that this was the intention? I thought Destiny dropped out of FTL because it detected a planet, not the planet was put there in the way of the ship.

Major_Griff
April 18th, 2010, 06:22 PM
Do we know that this was the intention? I thought Destiny dropped out of FTL because it detected a planet, not the planet was put there in the way of the ship.

The ship's data base didn't know of the planet, it dropped out of FTL because the star's gravity disrupted the FTL drive. So they wouldn't have stopped if the planet wasn't directly in their path. Whether that was done intentionally by whoever created the planet is up to interpretation at this point.

skarwolf
April 18th, 2010, 06:22 PM
Right so why was the planet created near Destiny's flight path... ?

Major_Griff
April 18th, 2010, 06:23 PM
Right so why was the planet created near Destiny's flight path... ?

Could be a massive coincidence. Or divine intervention. Or an evil alien plot. We don't know yet.

skarwolf
April 18th, 2010, 06:30 PM
What is Destiny's flight path ? Is it a loop ? Is it retracing a path ? Originally it was intended to seed planets with stargates correct ? If the ancients either forgot about it or left it to do whatever to run perpetually they obviously don't need to find planets anymore because they can create them. Enter this new planet. I'm willing to bet that as they continue along this flight path they'll find more Ancient left overs.

Major_Griff
April 18th, 2010, 06:33 PM
I don't think the Ancients created the planet. From what I under stand they never got this far into space. They created the gate seeders and the Destiny to allow them to get there, but abandoned the project either due to the plague or the Ori or some other reason. Also we have never seen anything to suggest that Ancients could make a start system.

Lord Hurin
April 18th, 2010, 06:40 PM
Right so why was the planet created near Destiny's flight path... ?

Coincidence? Who knows Destiny's flight path? Not even those aboard...

As Major Griff said, it's all up for interpretation right now since we know so little. I'm in the "coincidence" camp until proven otherwise.

skarwolf
April 18th, 2010, 06:45 PM
Destiny is millions of years old. That being the case, if Ancients were still around they'd be millions MORE years advanced from that. Humanity like the guoalds is using borrowed, or gifted technology for the most part. If they abandoned this super advanced ship (to humanity currently) that would lead me to believe it was worthless to them. That or something else happened that posed a threat. If it posed a threat to Ancients with all their advanced technology... well nice knowing ya peoples on Destiny now.

Infinite-Possibilities
April 18th, 2010, 10:33 PM
I actually got a flashback to "The Vok" from Beast Wars.

I got this image of the beam of light hitting a "moon" of the planet and turning into an instrument of planetary destruction in order to sterilize the planet because the humans contaminated the project. :p

Byakuya Truelight
April 18th, 2010, 10:40 PM
Doesn't the obelisk remind anyone else of forerunner tech from halo? It also looks the same too.
Here is a screenshot from halo 1 showing what I am talking about
http://imgur.com/g2Isv.jpg

I thought the same thing! I already thought it looked like it, but when it shot that beam into the sky I was like 'HAH!' xD The entire concept behind the artificial planet is very similar, really.

But when humanity suddenly comes across an ancient ring-shaped device left behind by a long-gone technologically advanced alien race looking similar to humans that turns out to be the progenitor to humanity, and that ring-shaped device triggers a war between humanity and another alien race who believes that all should follow their religion which is really just based on self-serving ulterior motives, and then humanity eventually comes across an even greater foe who is also the ancient enemy of that same precursor alien race, which tried to shield humanity from the ancient foe, I guess there's no real reason to see any similarities between the two series anyway. xD ... Wait, which of the two series did I just describe?

garhkal
April 19th, 2010, 03:17 PM
Do we know that this was the intention? I thought Destiny dropped out of FTL because it detected a planet, not the planet was put there in the way of the ship.

It dropped out cause of the planet and suns gravity.

nx01a
April 19th, 2010, 04:37 PM
Could be a massive coincidence. Or divine intervention. Or an evil alien plot. We don't know yet.I'm working with massive divine evil alien plot. :D

Dark Ghost
April 19th, 2010, 04:41 PM
Wish it was the forerunners would be sick.
I wonder how was more advanced the Ancient or Forerunners?

Stormtrooper
April 19th, 2010, 11:04 PM
Thor's hammer was a teleportation device. The Sodan's "Eye of the Gods" was a teleportation device. Taking into account Stargate's precedents and the fact that the obelisk presented in Faith is clearly much more than an ornament, is it also a long-range teleportation device much like the Stargate?

That would certainly explain why the gate seeder skipped this particular planet (conflicting alien tech detected), and yet didn't divert Destiny from it; possibly so Destiny and its Ancient crew could verify any further developments on the planet and make first contact, if appropriate.

Thoughts?

hiro
April 20th, 2010, 12:41 AM
I think in the show say that the gate seeder skipped this planet because when the gate seeder went here there was no planet ....

The Swarm
April 20th, 2010, 12:54 AM
There was no glitch in the ships tech....that solar system just didnt exist when the Seeder Ships passed thought the galaxy.

JustAnotherVoice
April 20th, 2010, 12:55 AM
It has precedent...

in the Milky Way, where the Ancients had a fetish for obelisks that shoot light and whisk you away. But what are the chances that someone that far removed from any previous SG cultural influence would have the same proclivities?

blackluster
April 20th, 2010, 02:17 AM
That would certainly explain why the gate seeder skipped this particular planet (conflicting alien tech detected), and yet didn't divert Destiny from it; possibly so Destiny and its Ancient crew could verify any further developments on the planet and make first contact, if appropriate.
I think it is plausible that it is a teleportation device but not for the theory you're suggesting. Moving a planet and star to that location after a seeder ship passed by might be easier than making that setup from scratch.

skarwolf
April 20th, 2010, 04:23 AM
Unless the planet was created so that when Destiny came around again to perform its task of dropping stargates it would notify whoever was interested in the ship via the obelisk sending a signal after they arrive.

Trinary
April 20th, 2010, 07:50 AM
The obelisk can be an anti-gravity to the star to put the habitable planet on the perfect orbit.

Perhaps the same thing the great pyramid does to our planet. It tie the globe into it's orbit. Mars also has pyramid probably does the same thing. Nobody knows who build the great pyramid with a weird properties such as a radioactive sand in it, the top part is older than the bottom part and pointing to north with a great accuracy.

Stormtrooper
April 20th, 2010, 09:20 AM
I think it is plausible that it is a teleportation device but not for the theory you're suggesting. Moving a planet and star to that location after a seeder ship passed by might be easier than making that setup from scratch.

Given that the star and the planet are 200 million years old, yet the seeder ships are not 201 million years ahead of Destiny, here are some possibilities on what may have transpired:

1) the seeder assigned to drop the gate on the planet was destroyed or tampered with/fed false information by the Obelisk Builders;

2) the seeder skipped the planet and sent data back to Destiny, which was either lost or overlooked, because:

a) it detected advanced alien tech on its surface;

b) it detected advanced alien tech on its surface that would render the Stargate useless, overload it, etc.;

c) it figured out the solar system and/or the planet was artificially created/terraformed;

d) all of the above;

3) Destiny is misleading/withholding information from the humans;

4) the solar system and the planet weren't really there when the seeder passed by, in which case they were recently created, relocated from another region of space, stolen from a subspace domain, alternate reality, etc., etc.;

5) Q did it again.

Needless to say, this matter should be clarified by the writers eventually.


The obelisk can be an anti-gravity to the star to put the habitable planet on the perfect orbit.

Perhaps the same thing the great pyramid does to our planet. It tie the globe into it's orbit. Mars also has pyramid probably does the same thing. Nobody knows who build the great pyramid with a weird properties such as a radioactive sand in it, the top part is older than the bottom part and pointing to north with a great accuracy.

That would be cool as well :)

theta123
April 20th, 2010, 09:26 AM
I hope it is not like the Brotherhood of Nod obelisk :cameron:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAcKw4qi4YI&feature=related

Otherwise they where in serious trouble


Well it must have something to do yes indeed with the fact that it is an artificial planet

garhkal
April 20th, 2010, 03:31 PM
I'm working with massive divine evil alien plot. :D

Forgot to add
"of doom" to that.:docianime15:

garhkal
April 20th, 2010, 03:36 PM
Ouch!