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Madwelshboy
April 16th, 2010, 12:57 PM
BOBBY SELLS HIS SOUL TO HELP STOP THE APOCALYPSE/DEAN GOES HEAD TO HEAD WITH DEATH - Crowley (guest star Mark Sheppard) tells Bobby (Jim Beaver) he will give him the location of Death (guest star Julian Richings), the fourth horseman, in exchange for his soul. Knowing Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) need that fourth ring to stop the Apocalypse, Bobby reluctantly agrees. Sam and Dean confront Pestilence (guest star Matt Frewer), but he unleashes a deadly virus upon them, so Castiel (Misha Collins) must intervene on their behalf. Dean has a meeting with Death to discuss Lucifer, and an unholy alliance is formed at a very high price for Dean. Phil Sgriccia directed the episode written by Sera Gamble (#521).

http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv170/madwelsboy/SN521b_0597b-7a86ac78-t3.jpg

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Heaven
May 7th, 2010, 04:30 AM
good episode

death was great
obviously Sam's gotta be there next season so he probably won't jump in the pit
so I have no idea where things are going to go from here, I love it

so glad I don't read spoilers :)

TheRandomOne
May 7th, 2010, 05:04 AM
The Supernatural guys really like that O Death song to use it in an actual episode. That came out of no where lol

Crichiel
May 7th, 2010, 05:56 AM
Hi! It's me, Miss Gushy. Just thought I'd remind you upfront, because you aren't going to recognise me from this post. :p

As Dean would say, "Hey Kripke, remind me to beat that buzzkill out of you later."

I can't properly express just how disappointed I was with this episode. With each turn of events, my heart just sank and sank and sank. :(

But I am still a fanatical fan because......

1) We haven't seen next week's finale yet. With all that was said and revealed with this one (and from next week's promo), I have very little hope they could turn it around enough to get back to where I was wishing it to go, but you never know. If there is any show that could do it, it would be this one. So I'll reserve final judgement on this one until I can put it into context with the whole season.

2) I have always believed in the "Can't please all the people all the time" mantra. And most of the time (ESPECIALLY with this show), I am the one who is pleased. So it's only fair and about time that other fans to get the story THEY want! ;)

3) Related to number 2, when finishing up a story this huge, that's been set up this long, it's next to impossible to live up to the fans' expectations. I understand. Heck, looking back, the episodes I seldom rewatch from season 4 are When the Levee Breaks and Lucifer Rising. I think those episodes accomplished what they needed to, but I don't find them particularly entertaining to watch.

4) With my expectations now so low for next week, it's got to be better than that, right? ;):P:D

5) We have a season 6!!! 22 more episodes for potential gold! :)

So, I'm not going to go into all the specifics that made me so unhappy with this one, because I don't want to be anyone else's buzzkill. If y'all loved it, then that is GREAT, and I am not going to rain on your parade. As for myself, I still have 2 things to look forward to next week:

(spoiler shown in the trailer) First of all, it looks there will FINALLY be some good whump :o

And secondly, my very favourite part of the season finales: The "Then" with Carry On My Wayward Son......at least it had BETTER be that song! If they dare change that?! I might need the long summer hiatus to cool off! ;)

LtColCarter
May 7th, 2010, 06:34 AM
I can't properly express just how disappointed I was with this episode. With each turn of events, my heart just sank and sank and sank. :(

Really? I can't remember when I've seen an episode of SPN that I don't like. Last night's epsiode was no exception. I about fell outta my chair when Crowleyshowed us the pic of him and Bobby kissing. I also like the fact that Bobby is walking again! I was like YAY! he's back in the saddle!!!

I'm really looking forward to next week's episode!!!

LoneStar1836
May 7th, 2010, 08:28 AM
So, I'm not going to go into all the specifics that made me so unhappy with this one, because I don't want to be anyone else's buzzkill. If y'all loved it, then that is GREAT, and I am not going to rain on your parade. It's an open discussion thread for all opinions. :) I like reading peoples' criticisms of episodes *hint hint* ;)...otherwise it gets boring reading nothing but praise 24/7. I've done my fair share of criticizing eps of various shows on this board.

I didn't love this episode, but I thought it was okay...as a means to get where they apparently need to be for the finale. My favorite part of the episode was the conversation with Death. Interesting twist that he's been bound to Lucifer somehow. Maybe a little convenient as a means of gaining the ring so easily, but I like it.

I still don't like how they keep harping on Sam being weak and vulnerable. That tune got old a number of episodes ago for me.

Poor Cas. :( Having to take the bus.... I kind of had worries about him joining the cast at the start of the season (as far as how much screen time he'd get and how much they'd have him paired with Dean), but I think they actually underused him this season. They came close to striking a nice balance for me, but I think he could have been used just a tick more. MC is great and the Cas stuff in this episode was my second favorite thing about it.

eta: Loved the episode title as well. With the reference to the Doomsday Clock. Midnight is doomsday and the closest the clock has ever reached was two minutes till midnight.

LizzieAnne
May 7th, 2010, 10:54 AM
Just this minute finishing watching the ep...and I'm stunned...really I am. It felt like it lasted 5 minutes..always a good sign.

I agree that there's a bit too much talk of Sam being weak in there but I forgive them that because of how it plays into the final showdown. I really loved Death..it totally surprised me how he was portrayed...really powerful and scary and Dean's reactions were perfect. Giving Dean the ring instead of another big battle I liked...because how on earth could you kill Death!!!!

Poor Cas and I'm glad to see him back......Yay! for Bobby..

I've seen the clip of next weeks ep...I've gone weak at the knees....




I can't properly express just how disappointed I was with this episode. With each turn of events, my heart just sank and sank and sank. :(

But I am still a fanatical fan because......

1) We haven't seen next week's finale yet. With all that was said and revealed with this one (and from next week's promo), I have very little hope they could turn it around enough to get back to where I was wishing it to go, but you never know. If there is any show that could do it, it would be this one. So I'll reserve final judgement on this one until I can put it into context with the whole season.



I think that's where I really differ as a viewer..I don't really have too many preconceived ideas and wishes..I just love to be taken along with the story wherever it goes... I (mostly) love Kripkes vision.




3) Related to number 2, when finishing up a story this huge, that's been set up this long, it's next to impossible to live up to the fans' expectations. I understand. Heck, looking back, the episodes I seldom rewatch from season 4 are When the Levee Breaks and Lucifer Rising. I think those episodes accomplished what they needed to, but I don't find them particularly entertaining to watch.

And When the Levee Breaks is my absolute favourite ep of all the seasons..I've watched it so many times...:D in fact I re-watched it a couple of days ago.
Good job we don't watch in the same room together...:lol:

the fifth man
May 7th, 2010, 06:31 PM
Personally, I thought this was a great episode. As did my wife and my dad. So much went on, with the Pestilence story, stopping the "vaccine", the meeting with Death. I was almost overwhelmed. It is so great that Bobby is up and walking around again.:) I really can't wait to see how this wraps up next week. This has been such a strong season IMO.

marielabbott
May 7th, 2010, 07:09 PM
I love the version of O Death used in the show. I know it's by Jen Titus, but I can't find the download on Amazon.com or itunes. :(

I enjoyed a lot in this episode. Bobby's admission to selling his soul (complete with Crowley's photo, lol), Castiel's frustration at losing most of his angelic powers, some nice whump with the boys in misery on the hospital floor ;), Dean's conversation with Death, Sam saving civilians and Bobby realizing that perhaps they can be too hard on Sam, Bobby walking again! (Loved Crowley's line about the emotion at that moment, "This is getting maudlin." :D) The Sam-is-weak statements are getting a bit old by this time. We know his character flaws by this time, we have seen them visually on screen--repeatedly--and we don't need to be retold verbally. :)

I can't believe next week's ep will be the season finale. :(

the fifth man
May 8th, 2010, 05:55 PM
I love the version of O Death used in the show. I know it's by Jen Titus, but I can't find the download on Amazon.com or itunes. :(

I enjoyed a lot in this episode. Bobby's admission to selling his soul (complete with Crowley's photo, lol), Castiel's frustration at losing most of his angelic powers, some nice whump with the boys in misery on the hospital floor ;), Dean's conversation with Death, Sam saving civilians and Bobby realizing that perhaps they can be too hard on Sam, Bobby walking again! (Loved Crowley's line about the emotion at that moment, "This is getting maudlin." :D) The Sam-is-weak statements are getting a bit old by this time. We know his character flaws by this time, we have seen them visually on screen--repeatedly--and we don't need to be retold verbally. :)

I can't believe next week's ep will be the season finale. :(

I can hardly believe the finale is upon us too. I know this season will end with a bang though.

Nadji
May 9th, 2010, 03:00 AM
Another season you say? I thought they'd end it here (not because it's unpopular, but because it kind of seems you can't go much further than the apocalypse.

But, I digress, I've loved this season and this week I was rewarded with the kind of episode I was hoping for: another strong arc driven story, a couple of horseman, a daring plan and a good quality set up for the finale

LtColCarter
May 10th, 2010, 07:10 AM
I can hardly believe the finale is upon us too. I know this season will end with a bang though.

The big bang! :D

Crichiel
May 10th, 2010, 12:17 PM
It's an open discussion thread for all opinions. :) I like reading peoples' criticisms of episodes *hint hint* ;)...otherwise it gets boring reading nothing but praise 24/7. I've done my fair share of criticizing eps of various shows on this board.


I put in a few of my main complaints here, but like I said, I don't even feel like it's fair when I haven't seen the finale yet. Who knows if they will even be valid after that!

-Eh. I didn't really like the confrontation with Death. I didn't think it was bad, per se. And it was a nice change to the other horsemen. But this was a scary concept, having Dean face Death all alone...then he has Dean sit down and all the jeopardy was immediately taken out of it. Kind of anticlimactic.

-Bobby walking. I wanted Bobby walking again, don't get me wrong. But Crowley threw that bonus in as an afterthought, and that's what it felt like story-wise to me, too. Like, "Oh wait, we need Bobby walking for the final battle. Quick! Think of a way he could be instantly cured without Cas."

-Which brings me to Castiel. I, too, was worried that he would become too prominent a figure when he was made a regular cast member. But I also agree that he was almost UNDER-used. He spent the season powerless and whiny, having only just enough, or just too little power to serve the storyline.

-Bobby and Dean talking about Sam. Bobby said they've been riding him since he was 12, thinking that he had this darkness in him. Sorry. I don't buy it, it doesn't track. Since he was TWELVE?! We saw scenes from when Sam was 12 and Dean wasn't riding him hard, he was still very protective of him. And Sam is the one they constantly make fun of for being so 'girly', for sharing his feelings, for being so sympathetic with the victims (remember Dean's view of him in Tall Tales?), for always trying to save everyone. He didn't leave the family because he was dark and violent, he left because he DIDN'T want that kind of life that Dean and John seemed so comfortable with. My impression was that they never thought of Sam as potentially evil until John whispered it to Dean when Sam was 23 years old!

The kernel of truth in Bobby's statement, however, was that they have been hard on him.....LATELY. Since Dean got back from Hell, they have been horribly and at times unfairly critical of Sam, but I didn't see that before Dean was gone.

-Sam saying 'yes' while Dean doesn't. And related to this; Adam. Here is my HUGE pet peeve and why I am not very excited for the last episode anymore. (But also where I have no idea if my fears will prove to be unfounded).

When they brought Adam back as a potential vessel, I was furious! :mad: What a HUGE cheat!! But, then Zachariah revealed that he wasn't really a vessel, so I let it go. And they also killed Adam off again, so I wasn't worried about him becoming Cousin Oliver, and the show Jumping the Shark for real. When some of you were speculating that Adam could still be around, I didn't even want to consider the possiblity.

What has changed now that Adam COULD be a vessel? And whatever it is, I don't care, this ticks me off to no end! This basically nullifies Dean's importance in the entire season. It goes against so many of the things that were said by so many of the humans, prophets, gods, demons, and angels this past year. About destiny and how it HAD to be Sam and Dean specifically. How they were exactly like Michael and Lucifer in personality (and Adam is like the 'Good soldier, older brother, following Daddy's orders' HOW?).

Someone said they are just along for the ride and don't have any ideas or expectations about where the show should go. I hate predictability myself. I like to be surprised as much as anyone by various twists and turns. But I was PRETTY sure that this was all leading to a Michael vs. Lucifer fight of SOME kind! We've been primed for years for this big showdown between the show's two leads. This whole season's led us to believe that either fate controls us (in which case Sam and Dean WILL fight), or it doesn't (in which case Sam and Dean will prove this by both refusing).

Apocalypse, apocalypse, apocalypse. This mother of all battles between Sam and Dean will now be Sam...and Adam. Remember him? Some random brother we invented a year ago, only it wasn't really their brother. Aren't you just as attached to him? That's like promoting the Ali vs. Frazier fight and saying, "In this corner, the heavyweight champion...Muhammad Ali!! And in this corner, it's....Joe Frazier's half-brother, who you probably don't know, and doesn't really fight, but really, it will be JUST as good." I am not interested in that fight.

Lastly, this is a totally unfair, personal preference since I am a DeanGirl. :o The last couple seasons, I have been watching thinking, "Wow, there are such a huge number of Dean episodes!" All the biggest emotional scenes have been Dean's, a lot of the huge kills are his, he has the best monologues, he has the episodes where there are 2 Deans...all of which are just FINE with me!! ;):P But in the back of my mind, I have been waiting for the other shoe to drop. They have to keep the SamGirls happy, too. It's only fair (this is what I meant when I said that usually I am the one pleased in the 'can't please all the people'). So, while I realised it would have to happen, and I don't want to short the Sam fans....I still didn't want the finale to the apocalypse to be a Sam episode!! Finales should absolutely be about both of them.

BUT, once again, I realise that this may not even be the case once we see final episode. As I said in the beginning, I will need to watch the finale, too, to put all this in the proper perspective. Maybe after I do, I will totally change my tune! ;)

Ok, those were my complaints. We'll see how valid they are in a few days. :P

LizzieAnne
May 10th, 2010, 03:28 PM
Interesting theories ;) sorry couldn't resist..:D


I put in a few of my main complaints here, but like I said, I don't even feel like it's fair when I haven't seen the finale yet. Who knows if they will even be valid after that!

-Eh. I didn't really like the confrontation with Death. I didn't think it was bad, per se. And it was a nice change to the other horsemen. But this was a scary concept, having Dean face Death all alone...then he has Dean sit down and all the jeopardy was immediately taken out of it. Kind of anticlimactic.


But to me Dean was terrified...none of his usual smart arse quips there. He knew he was in the presence an awesome power. Another thing I loved was Death saying to him that he couldn't cheat death...except if you're one of the Winchesters that is. :P



-Bobby walking. I wanted Bobby walking again, don't get me wrong. But Crowley threw that bonus in as an afterthought, and that's what it felt like story-wise to me, too. Like, "Oh wait, we need Bobby walking for the final battle. Quick! Think of a way he could be instantly cured without Cas."


Aaw that's a bit harsh..I thought it was a clever way to do it.



-Which brings me to Castiel. I, too, was worried that he would become too prominent a figure when he was made a regular cast member. But I also agree that he was almost UNDER-used. He spent the season powerless and whiny, having only just enough, or just too little power to serve the storyline.


Well..maybe...but overall I think they got it just about right. A difficult balance they had there to make with Cas I think.



-Bobby and Dean talking about Sam. Bobby said they've been riding him since he was 12, thinking that he had this darkness in him. Sorry. I don't buy it, it doesn't track. Since he was TWELVE?! We saw scenes from when Sam was 12 and Dean wasn't riding him hard, he was still very protective of him. And Sam is the one they constantly make fun of for being so 'girly', for sharing his feelings, for being so sympathetic with the victims (remember Dean's view of him in Tall Tales?), for always trying to save everyone. He didn't leave the family because he was dark and violent, he left because he DIDN'T want that kind of life that Dean and John seemed so comfortable with. My impression was that they never thought of Sam as potentially evil until John whispered it to Dean when Sam was 23 years old!

The kernel of truth in Bobby's statement, however, was that they have been hard on him.....LATELY. Since Dean got back from Hell, they have been horribly and at times unfairly critical of Sam, but I didn't see that before Dean was gone.

I agree they never thought of Sam as evil until that moment with John but I think you misheard what Bobby said....he didn't say that he thought Sam had had darkness in him since he was twelve. Only that they had been hard on him since he was young. That I agree with. Dean has always been hard on him. It's blatantly there from the first Season onwards. I could pick out loads of examples.
Bobby mentions the darkness..as of now..in the present Sam.



-Sam saying 'yes' while Dean doesn't. And related to this; Adam. Here is my HUGE pet peeve and why I am not very excited for the last episode anymore. (But also where I have no idea if my fears will prove to be unfounded).

When they brought Adam back as a potential vessel, I was furious! :mad: What a HUGE cheat!! But, then Zachariah revealed that he wasn't really a vessel, so I let it go. And they also killed Adam off again, so I wasn't worried about him becoming Cousin Oliver, and the show Jumping the Shark for real. When some of you were speculating that Adam could still be around, I didn't even want to consider the possiblity.

What has changed now that Adam COULD be a vessel? And whatever it is, I don't care, this ticks me off to no end! This basically nullifies Dean's importance in the entire season. It goes against so many of the things that were said by so many of the humans, prophets, gods, demons, and angels this past year. About destiny and how it HAD to be Sam and Dean specifically. How they were exactly like Michael and Lucifer in personality (and Adam is like the 'Good soldier, older brother, following Daddy's orders' HOW?).

Someone said they are just along for the ride and don't have any ideas or expectations about where the show should go. I hate predictability myself. I like to be surprised as much as anyone by various twists and turns. But I was PRETTY sure that this was all leading to a Michael vs. Lucifer fight of SOME kind! We've been primed for years for this big showdown between the show's two leads. This whole season's led us to believe that either fate controls us (in which case Sam and Dean WILL fight), or it doesn't (in which case Sam and Dean will prove this by both refusing).

Apocalypse, apocalypse, apocalypse. This mother of all battles between Sam and Dean will now be Sam...and Adam. Remember him? Some random brother we invented a year ago, only it wasn't really their brother. Aren't you just as attached to him? That's like promoting the Ali vs. Frazier fight and saying, "In this corner, the heavyweight champion...Muhammad Ali!! And in this corner, it's....Joe Frazier's half-brother, who you probably don't know, and doesn't really fight, but really, it will be JUST as good." I am not interested in that fight.

Lastly, this is a totally unfair, personal preference since I am a DeanGirl. :o The last couple seasons, I have been watching thinking, "Wow, there are such a huge number of Dean episodes!" All the biggest emotional scenes have been Dean's, a lot of the huge kills are his, he has the best monologues, he has the episodes where there are 2 Deans...all of which are just FINE with me!! ;):P But in the back of my mind, I have been waiting for the other shoe to drop. They have to keep the SamGirls happy, too. It's only fair (this is what I meant when I said that usually I am the one pleased in the 'can't please all the people'). So, while I realised it would have to happen, and I don't want to short the Sam fans....I still didn't want the finale to the apocalypse to be a Sam episode!! Finales should absolutely be about both of them.


Whoa...you're jumping the gun there...wait and see ...I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised...and no I don't know what's going to happen..honest :P

starg8fans
May 11th, 2010, 12:52 AM
Only managed to watch the ep last night. Which has its perks, since now it's only a couple of days I have to suffer until the finale airs... Okay, I liked it, but it didn't pull me in as much as the last two eps. Somehow there was too much going on, the whole thing felt rushed to me. I'm not sure if this breakneck pace is intentional, but I like me storylines to develop more slowly, and having nailing Pestilence, the Croatoan chase and the showdown with Death all on top of each other went overboard for me.

That said, I liked the overall developments, I loved how Sam and Dean are getting comfortable with each other again, how they let each other make the decisions, trusting the other to make the right ones. I like the way they're using Crowley - who may still end up having his own agenda, who knows.

I can see where Crichiel's 'peeves' come from, even if I don't share them. And as you so rightly said, they may be unfounded. Just a few comments that popped into my head as I read your post.


-Eh. I didn't really like the confrontation with Death. I didn't think it was bad, per se. And it was a nice change to the other horsemen. But this was a scary concept, having Dean face Death all alone...then he has Dean sit down and all the jeopardy was immediately taken out of it. Kind of anticlimactic.

I have to side with Lizzie on this one, I was actually delighted that the scene played out like this. Conquering or cheating Death out of his ring - especially as he would know by now that they're after it - would have been a touch too unbelievable to me, even for Spn. It also tied up a loose end for me, which is why Lucifer summoned Death mid-season, with ostensibly no follow-up. He had Death tethered up like a dog, ready to unleash him at his will. Excellent casting as usual, that actor really delivered both with his looks and his personality.


-Bobby walking. I wanted Bobby walking again, don't get me wrong. But Crowley threw that bonus in as an afterthought, and that's what it felt like story-wise to me, too. Like, "Oh wait, we need Bobby walking for the final battle. Quick! Think of a way he could be instantly cured without Cas."

Again, I agree with Lizzie. It was kinda neat, and not really unexpected to me ever since Bobby was ready to 'deal'. The only thing that had me wondering, actually, was that Bobby didn't think of it himself. He's too clever to let such an opportunity pass.


-Which brings me to Castiel. I, too, was worried that he would become too prominent a figure when he was made a regular cast member. But I also agree that he was almost UNDER-used. He spent the season powerless and whiny, having only just enough, or just too little power to serve the storyline.

I don't know about that. If Castiel had had any more powers it would have been too handy, made things too easy. And I wouldn't say he was whiny, just frustrated and he had every reason to be. Also, I don't find him under-used. He's had some really good moments, between finding and confronting Raphael, appearing on TV in heaven and zapping the angels by carving the sigil into his own chest. Sure, that only served the storyline, but what doesn't?


-Bobby and Dean talking about Sam. Bobby said they've been riding him since he was 12, thinking that he had this darkness in him. Sorry. I don't buy it, it doesn't track. Since he was TWELVE?! We saw scenes from when Sam was 12 and Dean wasn't riding him hard, he was still very protective of him. And Sam is the one they constantly make fun of for being so 'girly', for sharing his feelings, for being so sympathetic with the victims (remember Dean's view of him in Tall Tales?), for always trying to save everyone. He didn't leave the family because he was dark and violent, he left because he DIDN'T want that kind of life that Dean and John seemed so comfortable with. My impression was that they never thought of Sam as potentially evil until John whispered it to Dean when Sam was 23 years old!

Again, what Lizzie said. I was under the impression that the 'being hard on him' was meant as turning a reluctant Sam into a hunter, getting him trained for a life he didn't want. Also, the 'darkness' in him need not necessarily refer to the demon blood. Sam admitted himself that all his life he'd had this anger or rage in him, and that could be what Bobby referred to. It made him hot headed, which again is why they had to watch him closely, afraid that he'd let his temper get in the way when they were on a hunt.


-Sam saying 'yes' while Dean doesn't. And related to this; Adam. Here is my HUGE pet peeve and why I am not very excited for the last episode anymore. (But also where I have no idea if my fears will prove to be unfounded).

When they brought Adam back as a potential vessel, I was furious! :mad: What a HUGE cheat!! But, then Zachariah revealed that he wasn't really a vessel, so I let it go. And they also killed Adam off again, so I wasn't worried about him becoming Cousin Oliver, and the show Jumping the Shark for real. When some of you were speculating that Adam could still be around, I didn't even want to consider the possiblity.

What has changed now that Adam COULD be a vessel? And whatever it is, I don't care, this ticks me off to no end! This basically nullifies Dean's importance in the entire season. It goes against so many of the things that were said by so many of the humans, prophets, gods, demons, and angels this past year. About destiny and how it HAD to be Sam and Dean specifically. How they were exactly like Michael and Lucifer in personality (and Adam is like the 'Good soldier, older brother, following Daddy's orders' HOW?).

Well, Castiel said it's not ideal but it is possible. Adam is a plan B, a sort of understudy. If you compare the Apocalypse to a gala opera night, it's still opera even if the star tenor gets sick and is replaced, even if it's not the same experience. Personally, I don't think Adam will play a big role in the finale, things will change and change again. And for the reasons you said, I'm pretty positive that Kripke will use boys brothers equally in the end of his story arch. They were in almost all the stills I've seen, and there is one where Deanholds a rather uncharacteristic pose, which makes me think he'll be channeling Michael at some point.


BUT, once again, I realise that this may not even be the case once we see final episode. As I said in the beginning, I will need to watch the finale, too, to put all this in the proper perspective. Maybe after I do, I will totally change my tune! ;)

That's the spirit. I hope you won't be disappointed. Thanks for sharing these thoughts with us, though. It's great to hear somebody else's point of view, since it makes me think more closely about the eps and my own reaction to certain parts.

Crichiel
May 11th, 2010, 07:15 AM
Whoa...you're jumping the gun there...wait and see ...I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised...and no I don't know what's going to happen..honest :P

No no no. Not jumping the gun. I said over and over, I would have to wait and see because all my fears might prove unfounded. It's why I didn't even really want to post until I saw the finale. But, I thought, as this is a thread on THIS episode, I should look at it separately. Plus, LoneStar said I could post negative comments and not be killed!! :D:P (actually 'thank you' to both you and stars for disagreeing without totally skewering me. :))

LtColCarter
May 11th, 2010, 07:37 AM
No no no. Not jumping the gun. I said over and over, I would have to wait and see because all my fears might prove unfounded. It's why I didn't even really want to post until I saw the finale. But, I thought, as this is a thread on THIS episode, I should look at it separately. Plus, LoneStar said I could post negative comments and not be killed!! :D:P (actually 'thank you' to both you and stars for disagreeing without totally skewering me. :))

*gets skewers ready* ;)

starg8fans
May 11th, 2010, 07:39 AM
Hey, that's what 'discussion' means in my book, people presenting their different opinions. There's nothing more boring than everybody agreeing how awesome an episode was, so this was great. And your points were well supported, which is the right kind of criticism. Where we disagree is mostly a matter of perception, and we're all entitled to our own POVs.

BTW, one thing that had me a bit confused was when they went back to the opening scene in the middle of the episode. For a moment I was really confused, wondering whether Pestilence had revived that woman, and was replaying that death scene. I don't really see a reason why they had to use that same scene twice, anybody else got an idea about that?

LoneStar1836
May 11th, 2010, 10:42 AM
BTW, one thing that had me a bit confused was when they went back to the opening scene in the middle of the episode. For a moment I was really confused, wondering whether Pestilence had revived that woman, and was replaying that death scene. I don't really see a reason why they had to use that same scene twice, anybody else got an idea about that?
They were doing one of those tricks where they start the story as some point in the action and then roll back the clock to show you the events leading up to that scene...thus the scene was played twice when time caught back up to where the episode opened. I'm guessing you missed the "12 hours earlier" or whatever the number of hours was caption at the bottom.



-Bobby walking. I wanted Bobby walking again, don't get me wrong. But Crowley threw that bonus in as an afterthought, and that's what it felt like story-wise to me, too. Like, "Oh wait, we need Bobby walking for the final battle. Quick! Think of a way he could be instantly cured without Cas."I agree. That's essentially what I thought when they did that for Bobby. Obviously we need Bobby up and around, and there were only a limited number of means for that to happen so in a way I can accept it, but for a demon to be so uh...charitable. I know he has a motivation for doing this if that is in fact why Crowley has been helping them.

I quite liked Crowley when we first met him but for me he was, at times, too convenient in these last eps. Him revealing the info about the rings I'm totally cool with because I always figured that was where the story would head...Lucifer being trapped, but meh there was just some things that came too easy...like finding the last two horsemen. I know it had to be done quickly since they only had a couple of eps left, but I guess I just didn't like the brothers having to rely so heavily upon a demon to get the job done.


-Bobby and Dean talking about Sam. Bobby said they've been riding him since he was 12, thinking that he had this darkness in him. Sorry. I don't buy it, it doesn't track. Since he was TWELVE?! We saw scenes from when Sam was 12 and Dean wasn't riding him hard, he was still very protective of him. And Sam is the one they constantly make fun of for being so 'girly', for sharing his feelings, for being so sympathetic with the victims (remember Dean's view of him in Tall Tales?), for always trying to save everyone. He didn't leave the family because he was dark and violent, he left because he DIDN'T want that kind of life that Dean and John seemed so comfortable with. My impression was that they never thought of Sam as potentially evil until John whispered it to Dean when Sam was 23 years old!

The kernel of truth in Bobby's statement, however, was that they have been hard on him.....LATELY. Since Dean got back from Hell, they have been horribly and at times unfairly critical of Sam, but I didn't see that before Dean was gone.Them being hard on Sam all these years is understandable, but like LizzieAnne, I don't think Bobby was implying they were worried about some darkness in him from a young age. That totally goes against established cannon, and I would totally be mad if they tried to go back and suggest that.

But this bemoaning of Sam has been bothering me for the later half of the season. I get that they are still wary of what he did last season, but just how much doesn he have to do this season to prove to them that he's changed. What he did last season was motivated by Dean's death and his need for revenge. Those two factors are gone, imo. Sure it grew into him enjoying the rush of the power it gave him (which is why he could slip again), but they still act like Sam can't be trusted or that his head's not in the game. Sam was forced into a situation where he had to use demon blood again but afterwards he willingly let himself be locked up to get clean. If he's so questionable, they should have written that as more of a struggle to get Sam to comply. Here he is with all that power again and he chooses to give it up without a fight.

If Sam says yes in the last ep, it's not because he's weak and angry, it's because he's doing what he feels needs to be done for the greater good. Sam shouldn't get complacent about what he did, but I think the writers have piled on more of this narrative than necessary in the dialogue. As a viewer of this season, Sam has been written as the strongest character of the bunch, imo. Dean, Bobby, and Cas have been moping around with their problems and doubts while Sam has carried on with the weight of the last season on his back. Bobby needs to see Sam in action saving people to get past the doubt that Sam's not totally in this to help people?? Meh, I didn't like that.


As to the final episode, I'm in the wait and see mode. I think it will be good (this is the culmination of five years after all and I think Kripke will do it justice) and don't think Dean will be pushed aside. "The one who begins it is the one who will end it" or something to that affect. Then again they could wiggle out of that as meaning Dean would only be there to stop the actual Apocalypse and bring about the shinny happy world the angels want and not just mean putting a temporary halt on it. Only 50+ hours till we find out! :D

Crichiel
May 11th, 2010, 11:28 AM
Oops. To be totally fair, I just re-watched the scene with Dean and Bobby this morning, and I DID catch that they said 'Sam's been pulling people out of burning buildings since he was 12-years-old'. Not that he's been potentially evil since then. :o Although to me, the conversation still implies that they have been hard on Sam for years. And I still say it is reallly just this last year and a half or so that they've been so unfair. In season 2, Sam thought he was evil and Dean was the one insisting that he wasn't. But, the dialogue was vague enough that I could see an argument that Bobby only meant that they've been tough recently. ;)

And I agree, LoneStar, that Sam has basically been the one to carry all of them through this last season. While I found it really fascinating to watch Dean's temporary slide into despair the past 6 months or so (especially because it showcased Jensen's acting skills), seeing him so unDean-like just made it that much cooler in Hammer of the Gods when he had rebounded. But, poor Sam! It wasn't just Dean, it was everyone around him and I think that's why I was so frustrated with Castiel's anger/despair. EVERYONE was just giving up and I would have liked to have had ONE character that still believed in God and his Plan! Or at least in their ability to overcome Michael's and Lucifer's plans for them.

LizzieAnne
May 11th, 2010, 01:32 PM
BTW, one thing that had me a bit confused was when they went back to the opening scene in the middle of the episode. For a moment I was really confused, wondering whether Pestilence had revived that woman, and was replaying that death scene. I don't really see a reason why they had to use that same scene twice, anybody else got an idea about that?


They were doing one of those tricks where they start the story as some point in the action and then roll back the clock to show you the events leading up to that scene...thus the scene was played twice when time caught back up to where the episode opened. I'm guessing you missed the "12 hours earlier" or whatever the number of hours was caption at the bottom.


I think it's to make the opening scene have more impact...and I suppose it did have that effect although I can see how it could be seen as confusing. It made me think. :P It's one of those things which gets better on a second viewing.




Them being hard on Sam all these years is understandable, but like LizzieAnne, I don't think Bobby was implying they were worried about some darkness in him from a young age. That totally goes against established cannon, and I would totally be mad if they tried to go back and suggest that.

But this bemoaning of Sam has been bothering me for the later half of the season. I get that they are still wary of what he did last season, but just how much doesn he have to do this season to prove to them that he's changed. What he did last season was motivated by Dean's death and his need for revenge. Those two factors are gone, imo. Sure it grew into him enjoying the rush of the power it gave him (which is why he could slip again), but they still act like Sam can't be trusted or that his head's not in the game. Sam was forced into a situation where he had to use demon blood again but afterwards he willingly let himself be locked up to get clean. If he's so questionable, they should have written that as more of a struggle to get Sam to comply. Here he is with all that power again and he chooses to give it up without a fight.

If Sam says yes in the last ep, it's not because he's weak and angry, it's because he's doing what he feels needs to be done for the greater good. Sam shouldn't get complacent about what he did, but I think the writers have piled on more of this narrative than necessary in the dialogue. As a viewer of this season, Sam has been written as the strongest character of the bunch, imo. Dean, Bobby, and Cas have been moping around with their problems and doubts while Sam has carried on with the weight of the last season on his back. Bobby needs to see Sam in action saving people to get past the doubt that Sam's not totally in this to help people?? Meh, I didn't like that.


Very nicely put...I thought I was the only one who was thinking all of that...:P



As to the final episode, I'm in the wait and see mode. I think it will be good (this is the culmination of five years after all and I think Kripke will do it justice) and don't think Dean will be pushed aside. "The one who begins it is the one who will end it" or something to that affect. Then again they could wiggle out of that as meaning Dean would only be there to stop the actual Apocalypse and bring about the shinny happy world the angels want and not just mean putting a temporary halt on it. Only 50+ hours till we find out! :D

I'm thinking that there've been so many shady dealings by the angels and Sam and Dean being mislead at every turn...that 'The One who begins it , ends it' statement could be yet more lies and deceptions....to get Dean to say 'Yes'. So yes...plenty of wiggle room there.


Oops. To be totally fair, I just re-watched the scene with Dean and Bobby this morning, and I DID catch that they said 'Sam's been pulling people out of burning buildings since he was 12-years-old'. Not that he's been potentially evil since then. :o Although to me, the conversation still implies that they have been hard on Sam for years. And I still say it is reallly just this last year and a half or so that they've been so unfair. In season 2, Sam thought he was evil and Dean was the one insisting that he wasn't. But, the dialogue was vague enough that I could see an argument that Bobby only meant that they've been tough recently. ;)


Yep.I think the conversation there does imply that they've been hard on Sam for years...but I agree with that though. But I think that's different to saying that he's evil. I think those two things are separate. Yes I agree that Dean never thought Sam had evil inside him in the earlier Seasons...but he's always been tough on him...it's there even in the first ep in the 1st Season....not in a nasty way but it's still there. Maybe when we get the loooong hellatus I'll make a list..:D