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Daro
April 14th, 2010, 11:55 PM
Rush says to Young that the aliens are obsessed with Destiny. Considering that he quite obviously is too, and must at some level realize that, do you suppose he sees something of himself in them? Is he sympathetic to them at all, or does he just see them as rivals? I mean, they did torture him (and Chloe) to get what they wanted. Unless there's something we don't know yet about them, they seem to have no respect for life. They use people to get what they want. Maybe Rush saw that and maybe he realizes how inhuman his obsession could drive him to be? Anyone else have thoughts on the obvious parallels here?

Lahela
April 15th, 2010, 01:14 AM
The way Rush described being on Destiny as his destiny in one of the earlier episodes, I don't doubt that he feels at least a little proprietorial about it, so I see how he could feel some kind of empathy with their obsession with it (and who knows just how long they have been chasing it?). On the other hand, I also think he probably resents their obvious advantages over him - they have ships, they track it easily, they are united in their goal, whereas Rush is one man against a whole lot of people who don't want to be there and who he feels hinder him in his "mission".

I guess whether he learned anything about his own humanity from seeing first hand the extent to which they will go to get what they want depends on how we read the character and his motives. Personally (and this won't come as a surprise to anyone) I think he's as respectful of human life as the rest of them but sees things from a different perspective than they do. The greater good can mean many things (learning everything they can as much as getting home), and I think that's what drives him, rather than some personal agenda.

Daro
April 15th, 2010, 01:25 AM
The way Rush described being on Destiny as his destiny in one of the earlier episodes, I don't doubt that he feels at least a little proprietorial about it, so I see how he could feel some kind of empathy with their obsession with it (and who knows just how long they have been chasing it?). On the other hand, I also think he probably resents their obvious advantages over him - they have ships, they track it easily, they are united in their goal, whereas Rush is one man against a whole lot of people who don't want to be there and who he feels hinder him in his "mission".

I guess whether he learned anything about his own humanity from seeing first hand the extent to which they will go to get what they want depends on how we read the character and his motives. Personally (and this won't come as a surprise to anyone) I think he's as respectful of human life as the rest of them but sees things from a different perspective than they do. The greater good can mean many things (learning everything they can as much as getting home), and I think that's what drives him, rather than some personal agenda.

Well, (and this comes as no shock either,) I agree with you about Rush for the most part. I think he does have an agenda though, but it isn't about advancing himself. If he didn't have an agenda before he came aboard the Destiny, he does now, and that's unlocking the secrets it might hold. And I think the idea of ascension is tied up in it somehow for him. If you carry that to an extreme, Rush may consider every minute wasted a waste of human life back on Earth. If he discovers how to ascend, no one has to die anymore. And if he brings humanity just a bit closer to that goal before he dies, he's helping the survival of humanity as a whole perhaps, in such a crowded and uncertain universe.

Even if he wouldn't quite say that, I think he has walled himself off from other people. Chloe is the first indication otherwise. I never doubted that he cared when other people died, or were hurt, but he said it in 'Light:' they're a bunch of strangers. That's probably less true now (after all, Young is no longer a stranger, he's an enemy!) but still, getting to know the people he's with will mean he'll be much more impacted emotionally when someone gets lost along the way.

Lahela
April 15th, 2010, 01:34 AM
Well, (and this comes as no shock either,) I agree with you about Rush for the most part. I think he does have an agenda though, but it isn't about advancing himself. If he didn't have an agenda before he came aboard the Destiny, he does now, and that's unlocking the secrets it might hold. And I think the idea of ascension is tied up in it somehow for him. If you carry that to an extreme, Rush may consider every minute wasted a waste of human life back on Earth. If he discovers how to ascend, no one has to die anymore. And if he brings humanity just a bit closer to that goal before he dies, he's helping the survival of humanity as a whole perhaps, in such a crowded and uncertain universe.

Without trying to make him sound altruistic, I think if that's the case (and it very probably is) then his actions are not just motivated by a concern for humanity as a whole but perhaps are also guided by his belief that he's the only one that knows best. It would seem to fit with what we know of his background.


Even if he wouldn't quite say that, I think he has walled himself off from other people. Chloe is the first indication otherwise. I never doubted that he cared when other people died, or were hurt, but he said it in 'Light:' they're a bunch of strangers. That's probably less true now (after all, Young is no longer a stranger, he's an enemy!) but still, getting to know the people he's with will mean he'll be much more impacted emotionally when someone gets lost along the way.

Again, that emotional wall also very probably stems from both a sense of his own importance in the grand scheme of things (therefore a need to stay away from close personal contact) and his own past making him wary of attachment. I wonder if his relationship with Chloe will impact on how he deals with people, if that wall is cracking.

Daro
April 15th, 2010, 01:41 AM
Frankly, if he doesn't ever break that wall down, he's going to pretty much have to be a villain in most viewers' eyes. It's too late for him to pull the Spock card. ;)

I think Chloe is the first crack in the wall. And we may have seen another starting to show up when she begged him not to let Young and Scott die. He couldn't, and while I may think that he wouldn't have let them anyway, I'm not sure he wouldn't have turned a blind eye and charged ahead anyway. If he cares about Chloe, then he has to care somewhat about Scott, and Eli (I already think he cares about Eli, but hasn't shown it much because Eli has betrayed him in a sense.) It's a chain reaction from then on out.

I feel a little vindicated that Chloe was the first person Rush befriended, since I had thought that would be the case in the first episode. I'd like to see him emotionally vulnerable again, they shut that off real quick in the show.

asdf1239
April 15th, 2010, 03:57 AM
theory: chloe is only trying to get close to him to find out his secrets and so the NID can manipulate him through her

blackluster
April 15th, 2010, 05:42 AM
The way he delivered his lines at the dinner table in Space lead me to think that he hasn't actually truly revealed what the aliens intentions are. I somehow suspect that through his mind meld with them, he has inadvertently gleaned some secret of Destiny that the aliens are perhaps aware of. The secret might be massive or purely dangerous enough that he can't or won't tell anyone.

The OP's observations are very intriguing though.

EllieVee
April 15th, 2010, 05:46 AM
Or maybe he's just too scared. He was pretty terrified in the alien ship.

Daro
April 15th, 2010, 06:03 AM
His speech did seem a little...rehersed. But then, if you're going to lie, you do tend to reherse it before hand, and he was lying for sure about the 'rockslide.'

It is quite possible, maybe even likely, that he isn't sharing everything. I'm not sure why he would, unless it happened to be a way to dial the gate to Earth. I'm pretty sure if he could get everyone off the ship, and put some lightyears between himself and Young, that he would. Not entirely sure though.
If the information he might be keeping secret is ever relevant to a situation, he'll share it.
I couldn't begin to speculate on what the alien knowledge could be, as they've never been on the inside of the ship. But that doesn't mean they don't know something.

EllieVee
April 15th, 2010, 06:11 AM
I'm pretty sure he was telling the truth with Chloe when he said he couldn't remember everything. I also don't think he'd have learned what they knew about Destiny because they probably don't know that much. However, I do think he was hiding what happened to him. He'd have been on that ship for the better part of a week and I doubt the smurfs had an anaesthetic handy for their implant operation.

Wayston
April 15th, 2010, 06:14 AM
I doubt Rush's experience has fundamentally changed him. The irony of the alien's motivation probably hasn't eluded him, but he's still willing to sacrifice the life of others to get what he wants. For example if it weren't for Chloe and wray he would have let Young and Scott die in their shuttle.

On the plus side I'd assume his obsession also means he won't want to share destiny with the aliens (or any other human for that matter if that means he can't play the Destiny-suprimo), so there's no prospect of betrayel there.

EllieVee
April 15th, 2010, 06:17 AM
I doubt Rush's experience has fundamentally changed him. The irony of the alien's motivation probably hasn't eluded him, but he's still willing to sacrifice the life of others to get what he wants. For example if it weren't for Chloe and wray he would have let Young and Scott die in their shuttle.

Speculation.

Wayston
April 15th, 2010, 06:24 AM
Speculation.

it's open to interpretation I guess but the inference I took from the episode was that rush would have waited for the transfer to complete before doing anything, but that his conscience got talked into by chloe and wray (who e.g. stressed the risk of having their civilians jump ship again, pun intended) to stop the transfer prematurely

hiro
April 15th, 2010, 06:40 AM
theory: chloe is only trying to get close to him to find out his secrets and so the NID can manipulate him through her

so he'll become another king in a medieval world with a lot of wifes !!! nicee!!!

EllieVee
April 15th, 2010, 06:45 AM
it's open to interpretation I guess but the inference I took from the episode was that rush would have waited for the transfer to complete before doing anything, but that his conscience got talked into by chloe and wray (who e.g. stressed the risk of having their civilians jump ship again, pun intended) to stop the transfer prematurely

I got that inference as well but it's speculation that he'd have allowed them to die had the transfer not been completed by the time of the jump. He says that Eli is slowing down the transfer which, I think, probably would have killed them.

ladypredator
April 15th, 2010, 02:30 PM
I got that inference as well but it's speculation that he'd have allowed them to die had the transfer not been completed by the time of the jump. He says that Eli is slowing down the transfer which, I think, probably would have killed them.

I think you're right. He had no idea about the problem until Chloe tells him and he responds very quickly to her. It's Eli's interference that is putting them at risk - if he wasn't trying to stop the transfer, it would've finished faster and then Rush could've have saved them and he is willing to do that (he even does it though it means the transfer may fail). He's not really interested in Camile's attempt to seize power, he's only focused on making sure that he can stop the Colonel from foolishly draining Destiny's shields to try to use the weapons against impossible odds. And keeping the Colonel from killing him because of the tracker in his chest.

The thing that I like the most about this episode is that it involves plots within plots - Rush and Chloe are hijacking Camile's plot for a completely different priority of their own. You can tell that while they agree with her in principle, they're really just going along for their own distinct reasons, which she doesn't know. I love the layers-within-layers here.

And that's characteristic of Rush. He's a very complex person - I think he has at least three separate motivations for his decision to dial the Ninth Chevron, for example. He believes that solving these scientific mysteries is absolutely vital, that's his mission, his destiny, but he's never shown an easy willingness to sacrifice human life. He makes the point about leaving Scott in Water, but that's a case where the lives of every person on the ship was at risk. The Colonel was making the wrong decision, letting emotion overweigh reason. Rush, I think, will always utilize reason first - but he's human and that means emotions impact him too. I think he fights against his emotions, tries to keep them locked up, but no one can keep doing that, esp. after this much trauma. So his emotions are going to leak through; I think that's part of what we're seeing now. Nightmares, making the emotional connection with Chloe... even earlier, his quietly bitter reaction to Young's absurd accusation at the end of "Light" which threw his attempt to be sincere and honest with Young back in his face. That, I'm certain, was the root cause of their problems with each other - Young's paranoia and an obviously ridiculous accusation.

EllieVee
April 15th, 2010, 07:17 PM
I agree with everything except I think the root cause started, probably over something stupid, back at Icarus. There's a reason for Young's obnoxiousness during the test and later and that filthy look Rush gives him on their arrival.

Artemis-Neith
April 15th, 2010, 11:12 PM
I agree with everything except I think the root cause started, probably over something stupid, back at Icarus. There's a reason for Young's obnoxiousness during the test and later and that filthy look Rush gives him on their arrival.

That's also what I guess, Young's paranoid behaviour is not really understandable, unless there is something else, we still don't know, back on Icarus base between Young and Rush.

hiro
April 15th, 2010, 11:57 PM
I think that the fact of Rush wanting to dial so desperatly and Young shuting it dow before it went crytical ( the first time ) maybe Young think's that Rush is capable of anything to reach his goals.

On the other hand Rush is the kind of cientist who spends a lot of time surrounded by books and not by people , he doesn't seems so good when Eli takes a lot of credit for his actions ( when they are eating in the Icarus base and he go to the kitchen to grab something to eat)

Daro
April 16th, 2010, 12:45 AM
I'm not sure there is something between Young and Rush back on Icarus. I watched the expanded version of "Air" and you can see in it very clearly that Rush doesn't like the military (well, he gives Young a dirty look, anyway, but not openly) and yet he's bending over backward to please everyone. I won't give it away in case you need to see it, but one of the added scenes pretty much shows Nice Rush turning into Angry Rush. I think that he's had problems all along because he is a private person, and he is too busy or clueless to worry about being rude to those beneath him while kissing up to the military. It seems like, when he stops kissing up, he may be in revenge mode. He, after all, did exactly what he was told to do and has done nothing but suffer for it. Whether or not he was right to dial the ninth chevron, I'm just thinking about this from his POV.
I think Young and Rush never were crazy about one another, but frankly, what's been shown is enough explain that.

EllieVee
April 16th, 2010, 01:03 AM
I think that the fact of Rush wanting to dial so desperatly and Young shuting it dow before it went crytical ( the first time ) maybe Young think's that Rush is capable of anything to reach his goals.

Rush is looking at the data on the screen. Without that, he doesn't know what's going wrong. It is logical that the lead scientist, charged with running the thing, would need to know what's going wrong and it's better to do that when it's live.


On the other hand Rush is the kind of cientist who spends a lot of time surrounded by books and not by people , he doesn't seems so good when Eli takes a lot of credit for his actions ( when they are eating in the Icarus base and he go to the kitchen to grab something to eat)

Where has Rush been upset about Eli taking credit for work he hasn't done? I notice that you slam Rush for apparently being upset rather than slamming Eli for taking credit where it is not due.

EllieVee
April 16th, 2010, 01:04 AM
I'm not sure there is something between Young and Rush back on Icarus. I watched the expanded version of "Air" and you can see in it very clearly that Rush doesn't like the military (well, he gives Young a dirty look, anyway, but not openly) and yet he's bending over backward to please everyone. I won't give it away in case you need to see it, but one of the added scenes pretty much shows Nice Rush turning into Angry Rush. I think that he's had problems all along because he is a private person, and he is too busy or clueless to worry about being rude to those beneath him while kissing up to the military. It seems like, when he stops kissing up, he may be in revenge mode. He, after all, did exactly what he was told to do and has done nothing but suffer for it. Whether or not he was right to dial the ninth chevron, I'm just thinking about this from his POV.
I think Young and Rush never were crazy about one another, but frankly, what's been shown is enough explain that.

You realise you're going to now get asked for examples of this bending over backwards ...

Daro
April 16th, 2010, 01:48 AM
....yes. What a fool I am. Here is the example of the transition scene I was speaking of, so as not to be mysterious. I'll put it under spoilers. Those who need more details can go shell out fourty bucks like I did for the DVDs. :P

The main scene they added shows Rush's conversation with Gen. O'Neill when he used the stones, the one he'd soon claim placed him in charge. Rush and O'Neill meet, and Rush starts babbling excitedly about what he's found. O'Neill is horrified that Rush has stranded himself and all the others, and proceeds to explain that to Rush (in the way Jack explains things to scientists, you know. Loudly.) Rush's face just transforms into that now all-too familiar sneer and he snarls back that he took the only chance he thought they'd ever have of reaching the ninth chevron destination. It's like Rush thought O'Neill would understand, which of course isn't the case. I think that is the moment that solidifies all this rage Rush has at the military, SGC, etc. Still, O'Neill says at the end of the conversation "Rush, you get those people home." Which may be why Rush thought he was in charge.

As for bending over backwards, that'd take longer. I believe the expanded version shows Rush just completely sucking up to authority. It made me blink, because I don't remember it quite so clearly from when I first watched the tv version. Kiss-up Rush is kind of scary to watch, because we know now that in no way does he believe that he should be kissing up to anyone. Personally, I like Angry Rush better because, ya know, we're learning who he really is. I wonder if the upcoming Rush-centered episode will confirm my belief that Rush was not just a good man, but a nice man, before his wife died. Still convinced he's a good man either way, just a very flawwed one.

hiro
April 16th, 2010, 07:10 AM
Where has Rush been upset about Eli taking credit for work he hasn't done? I notice that you slam Rush for apparently being upset rather than slamming Eli for taking credit where it is not due.

Agree it's Eli fault to take credit and be a little modest , but the fact that Rush is not in the dinner ( or they where lunching ? i don't remember) i guess that he's a little obsessed with his work. This make him a little .... well .... a little rude with the others

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 16th, 2010, 07:17 AM
Rush says to Young that the aliens are obsessed with Destiny. Considering that he quite obviously is too, and must at some level realize that, do you suppose he sees something of himself in them? Is he sympathetic to them at all, or does he just see them as rivals? I mean, they did torture him (and Chloe) to get what they wanted. Unless there's something we don't know yet about them, they seem to have no respect for life. They use people to get what they want. Maybe Rush saw that and maybe he realizes how inhuman his obsession could drive him to be? Anyone else have thoughts on the obvious parallels here?

that word obsession stood out for me too, as I see Rush as being obsessed with the ship.
Torture? I wonder about that, if they actually tortured him, I saw them having similar purposes, so who knows. I'm willing to watch and see (and it's Friday, woohoo!)

EllieVee
April 16th, 2010, 07:33 AM
Agree it's Eli fault to take credit and be a little modest , but the fact that Rush is not in the dinner ( or they where lunching ? i don't remember) i guess that he's a little obsessed with his work. This make him a little .... well .... a little rude with the others

Recall that Young walks in and takes Eli out for dinner. Rush was not invited.

hiro
April 16th, 2010, 07:43 AM
wow nothing then ! i didn't remember this part ... i'll have to watch it again =D

Daro
April 16th, 2010, 10:19 AM
Recall that Young walks in and takes Eli out for dinner. Rush was not invited.

Maybe that's what this is all about. All of this boils down to Rush getting snubbed on dinner. I mean, it'd make sense to me. His project, yet Eli gets the glory and also gets to sit with the senator and Chloe. I'd be furious. Rush at the time could only go cry in his room about it, but now? Now it's payback time.

Daro
April 16th, 2010, 10:25 AM
that word obsession stood out for me too, as I see Rush as being obsessed with the ship.
Torture? I wonder about that, if they actually tortured him, I saw them having similar purposes, so who knows. I'm willing to watch and see (and it's Friday, woohoo!)

FRIDAY! WHOOOHOO!

*ahem* Sorry.

So anyway, I think Rush was tortured. I mean, he may not remember all of it, but we saw that even having contact with the alien neural interface was painful, and more so for the sender (Young fell in the floor and screamed in pain.) Plus, the implant might have been done while Rush was under sedation, but I doubt they gave him much for the post-op pain. And torture here also means mental anguish, not just physical torture. Namely, Rush is very afraid after his return. Afraid that Young will finish the job, afraid the aliens will come back, afraid that any attempt to remove the implant will result in his death. He's so afraid that he comes up with his worst plan ever, deciding the aliens will give up and go away if the shields hold. Rush knows better than that. I think, before "Justice," he would have faced the problem and had the implant removed, ideal coniditions or no. I like seeing when Rush is afraid, personally. It makes him that much more human.

EllieVee
April 16th, 2010, 10:28 AM
Maybe that's what this is all about. All of this boils down to Rush getting snubbed on dinner. I mean, it'd make sense to me. His project, yet Eli gets the glory and also gets to sit with the senator and Chloe. I'd be furious. Rush at the time could only go cry in his room about it, but now? Now it's payback time.

Nope, it's not that. I get the impression he was used to it. After all, Becker hands him a tray so he doesn't go to dinner at all, if he ever did. I also don't think he's the jealous type.

Daro
April 16th, 2010, 10:37 AM
I agree, Ellie. But it was an amusing thought. I think Rush was generally miffed at Eli getting all the credit, but it wasn't something he was really upset about. He's got plenty of real tragedy to get upset about.

carmencatalina
April 16th, 2010, 11:13 AM
Nope, it's not that. I get the impression he was used to it. After all, Becker hands him a tray so he doesn't go to dinner at all, if he ever did. I also don't think he's the jealous type.

Indeed, the way Becker had his dinner all ready for him ("Here you are, Dr. Rush") made it seem as though Rush usually didn't join the others for dinner. A loner even before Destiny (or already in the doghouse with Young?).

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 16th, 2010, 11:55 AM
FRIDAY! WHOOOHOO!

*ahem* Sorry.

So anyway, I think Rush was tortured. I mean, he may not remember all of it, but we saw that even having contact with the alien neural interface was painful, and more so for the sender (Young fell in the floor and screamed in pain.) Plus, the implant might have been done while Rush was under sedation, but I doubt they gave him much for the post-op pain. And torture here also means mental anguish, not just physical torture. Namely, Rush is very afraid after his return. Afraid that Young will finish the job, afraid the aliens will come back, afraid that any attempt to remove the implant will result in his death. He's so afraid that he comes up with his worst plan ever, deciding the aliens will give up and go away if the shields hold. Rush knows better than that. I think, before "Justice," he would have faced the problem and had the implant removed, ideal coniditions or no. I like seeing when Rush is afraid, personally. It makes him that much more human.

yes, you are quite right, torture is more than a physical act only and yes, I'd definitely agree that he is afraid when he gets back. But afraid of what exactly? Obsession is the word there, I think, both Rush's obsession and the aliens' obsession. I think Rush fears that the aliens want the ship (and shouldn't have it). I think he fears that Young will, if provoked, find a way to remove Rush from the ship permanently. In any case, Rush would no longer have the thing that he's obsessed with, and I think that's where much of his fear comes from.

I really do wish that I didn't have a head like a sieve so that I could credit the poster (here or elsewhere...dratted silly brain!) that made a good point that the aliens can't get through Destiny;s shields, and that's why he's so insistent that they stay up, even if the ship is taking fire.

hiro
April 18th, 2010, 05:23 PM
Indeed, the way Becker had his dinner all ready for him ("Here you are, Dr. Rush") made it seem as though Rush usually didn't join the others for dinner. A loner even before Destiny (or already in the doghouse with Young?).

Yeap ! i agree , he seems to be so alone and i think that the women in the picture ( in Air ) has something to do with . Maybe he had done what coronel o'neill did before (all his soon thing )