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Duneknight
April 14th, 2010, 04:23 AM
this is all wrong. Young is the good guy here. he has flaws, but his intentions are good. Dr. Rush however, his intentions arent even clear, and civilians cant think for themselves clearly. Military has disciplined these soldiers well to be able to handle such circumstances and in very special circumstances such as this to restore order and protect civilians from themselves. i think DIVDED episode actually made Young and the military look good as they were the most reasonable.

hisg1fans
April 14th, 2010, 04:27 AM
I agree wholeheartedly.

latvian_stargatefan
April 14th, 2010, 04:33 AM
The thing is, all of them are good guys. The space aliens, Lucian Alliance- Kiva are bad guys... and maybe even some of them won't turn out to be bad guys at all but just a bunch of interesting people having their own agendas on the show.

It's just whose side you support- all of them have good qualities and all have some bad ones too. Who knows, maybe in season 2 (or the end of season 1) writers will make some Lucian alliance character or blue alien look as a good guy and Young or Rush as a bad guy. You never know. I don't think this show will really portray good vs evil in the way that evil has no redeeming qualities...

Phenom
April 14th, 2010, 04:53 AM
Who are the majority? Its really hard to tell on forums like this, where a person can take on multiple personalities to skew their opinions.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Young is pretty much an open book from what we get to see. Rush on the other hand is not.

Artemis-Neith
April 14th, 2010, 04:58 AM
this is all wrong. Young is the good guy here. he has flaws, but his intentions are good. Dr. Rush however, his intentions arent even clear, and civilians cant think for themselves clearly. Military has disciplined these soldiers well to be able to handle such circumstances and to in very special circumstances such as this to restore order and protect civilians from themselves. i think DIVDED episode actually made Young and the military look good as they were the most reasonable.

What is a good guy in this show (and what is a bad guy)?

As you mentioned, HE HAS FLAWS! Right. Surely, he is not a bad person, and clearly not the baddy of the show. In his opinion, he do things right, and often he does. But, this don't mean he does everything right.

The biggest problem, IMO, is his paranoid behaviour against Rush. And he had this problem right from the beginning, which looked for me a little bit forced. The only explanation for this is that there must have happend something before, we still don't know, if you don't want to say he's just insane. But Young's lost it with him completely, and that endangers everybody on that ship.

And even if the military has qualified leaders amoung them (you can find such people also amoung civilians, btw), soldiers are humans, and as you pointed out, humans have flaws, and Young has some severe problems, which makes him not a good leader, even if he's not a bad person.

Sorry, but who says civilians aren't able to think clearly? Those people aren't teenies anymore, they're very much able to think for themselfes. Maybe they just don't want to be Young's little pet soldiers! Which I can understand very well, Young don't know how to give the non military personal the feeling of being accepted in the same way he accepted his own people. Well, of course IMO.

MattSilver 3k
April 14th, 2010, 05:10 AM
Young's good guy-ness has never been in doubt to me. And probably the same to others. While I see him as a psycho/favourite character, he's still a good guy.

The thing that probably causes contention is whether or not he's the right guy to be leading. Good, yes. Right, up for many-a-debate between many other groups.

Laxian of Earth
April 14th, 2010, 05:12 AM
the way to hell is PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS :(

even more:

good guys do not govern/rule with force (or the threaten people with use of the same)

good guys do not point weapons into peoples direction/faces without cause for the slightest misstake

good guys don't let other people (eli) spy on others (rush)

good guys do not have affairs with junior officers

good guys don't beat up other officers (young beating telford)

good guys do not attempt MURDER

good guys (if military) let the civilians take charge in non fighting situations

etc.

so he ain't a good guy no more, now add that he acts stupidly, is in well over his head, does not have real leadership capabilities and does tend to ignore rules (UCMJ - having sex/relationship with TJ) and you pretty well know why the civilians do not like him and want him to stepp down and the military people to surrender their weapons (they would surely give them the weapons back if there is a need to fight/go of world)

greetings LAX

carmencatalina
April 14th, 2010, 05:48 AM
As I've mentioned already, I'm solidly in the "Young is a good and decent person" camp. But he has done bad things - affair with someone under his command, jumping Telford (no matter how much I may think he deserved it, the stinker!), leaving Rush and then lying about it.

I love the character, I'm saddened by his flaws, I hope for his growth and redemption. Pretty excellent television, wouldn't you say!

chrono trigger
April 14th, 2010, 05:56 AM
this is all wrong. Young is the good guy here. he has flaws, but his intentions are good. Dr. Rush however, his intentions arent even clear, and civilians cant think for themselves clearly. Military has disciplined these soldiers well to be able to handle such circumstances and in very special circumstances such as this to restore order and protect civilians from themselves. i think DIVDED episode actually made Young and the military look good as they were the most reasonable.

i agree with you because if it came down to having to choose between someone like young or rush i pick young anyday.

Mike.
April 14th, 2010, 06:26 AM
this is all wrong. Young is the good guy here. he has flaws, but his intentions are good. Dr. Rush however, his intentions arent even clear, and civilians cant think for themselves clearly. Military has disciplined these soldiers well to be able to handle such circumstances and in very special circumstances such as this to restore order and protect civilians from themselves. i think DIVDED episode actually made Young and the military look good as they were the most reasonable.

I agree. Young FTW.

yanna
April 14th, 2010, 06:39 AM
If the good guys you know are like Young, I shudder to think what the bad guys are like.

I'm glad you enjoy the character. I think he's a psychotic jackass who should be in the brig for attempted murder. Dunno if the majority thinks that but why do you care so much?

jelgate
April 14th, 2010, 07:18 AM
Their are no good guys. They have both (Rush and Youvng) done some masively questionablr moral activities. That said Young is the lesser of two evils

Gate Traveller
April 14th, 2010, 08:04 AM
the way to hell is PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS :(

even more:

good guys do not govern/rule with force (or the threaten people with use of the same)

good guys do not point weapons into peoples direction/faces without cause for the slightest misstake

good guys don't let other people (eli) spy on others (rush)

good guys do not have affairs with junior officers

good guys don't beat up other officers (young beating telford)

good guys do not attempt MURDER

good guys (if military) let the civilians take charge in non fighting situations

etc.

so he ain't a good guy no more, now add that he acts stupidly, is in well over his head, does not have real leadership capabilities and does tend to ignore rules (UCMJ - having sex/relationship with TJ) and you pretty well know why the civilians do not like him and want him to stepp down and the military people to surrender their weapons (they would surely give them the weapons back if there is a need to fight/go of world)

greetings LAX

Ahhhh..... it has been stated that these are the wrong people to be there, they were never to really serve on board Destiny even if Lucian Alliance didn't screw things up.

Young is the only LEADER among them. Military has its chain of command but yet the CIVILIAN personnel is only concerned about being in charge. Rush wants it, the IOA chick wants it, the rest just want someone else to be in charge other then Military. But with Aliens recently attacking Destiny who would you rather have in charge? A Military commander with combat experience or a potentially mad scientist who seems to be just gambling?

He has problems, duh, but when everyone's attitudes begin to cloud their judgement and dissension amongst them begins someone also needs to be the level head and try to play referee, sumtimes its needed to get into a persons face and yell. Rush does not care about the others (we know this already) he will sacrifice others for his goals. As for the planet thing.... Rush had it coming you know it, I know it everyone knows it.

For the idea that in non fighting times the Civilian Government has all power and the Military should listen to them is an obviously good idea, but in chaotic situations like what is currently happening on Destiny the Military needs to keep things in control. The Military on board Destiny are like the police force, they keep the peace, but when you have more then one person attempting to SEIZE power from others by force, and those people may not have the best intentions the Military needs to keep things in control.

Young, I think, realizes that they are stuck, and they need to find a way to live together.... otherwise why not expose Rush after the events of "Divided". I think people don't want to see this (From Destiny Crew P.O.V.)

Rush, potential mad scientist with no regard for others take power

Young, Military commander keeping things the way they are

IOA Chick (Cant remember her name ever!) Closest thing to a politician who has no knowledge of ship systems and will have to rely only on everyone else and not really contributing to anything in the long run.

You have any other ideas for a Leader? Military, for now, is best, Young is the best choice to keep running things.

Deevil
April 14th, 2010, 08:48 AM
If Young is considered the Good Guy - you know the guy who left someone to die on a planet then lied about it.

The Guy that beat up Telford because he thought he was having an affair with his wife.

The Guy who doesn't seem to be able to make a decent decision.

If that makes him a Good Guy, I think the idealistic wonder and shine has well and truly been tarnished... 'cause I expect something more from a Good Guy. Like I dunno, decent and honourable behaviour. Something we don't have from Young at all.

Not to mention his leadership, it leaves a lot to be desired.

The thing is - there are no good guys - and just because his intentions appear clear doesn't mean they are.

MattSilver 3k
April 14th, 2010, 08:53 AM
The Guy that beat up Telford because he thought he was having an affair with his wife.

I think, more than anything, he beat up Telford because Telford told Emily that the Young and TJ thing was still going on.

AND because he thought that Telford was plowing his wife. But still - not just what you mentioned. Hypocritical psychotic or not, ain't Young grand?

magictrick
April 14th, 2010, 08:55 AM
What's the definition of a good guy?

If you look at some of the examples in this thread, are those actions exemplary of a good guy? I don't think its ever as clear cut as good guy and bad guy. I think some people do a lot more good than bad, but that doesn't mean they don't have flaws. In Young's case, he clearly has some major flaws as well. So does Rush.

I think the whole point of the show is to be more realistic and outline character flaws. Everyone makes mistakes and nobody is perfect all the time. Basically, a better representation of what really happens in the world.

Lahela
April 14th, 2010, 10:49 PM
I think, more than anything, he beat up Telford because Telford told Emily that the Young and TJ thing was still going on.

AND because he thought that Telford was plowing his wife. But still - not just what you mentioned. Hypocritical psychotic or not, ain't Young grand?

IMO, that's what makes him grand. As much as I dislike him, I wouldn't have it any other way. :)

Replicator Todd
April 14th, 2010, 11:29 PM
Young definitely is the good guy, but he still is a terrible leader IMO.

K^2
April 15th, 2010, 04:38 AM
this is all wrong. Young is the good guy here. he has flaws, but his intentions are good. Dr. Rush however, his intentions arent even clear, and civilians cant think for themselves clearly. Military has disciplined these soldiers well to be able to handle such circumstances and in very special circumstances such as this to restore order and protect civilians from themselves. i think DIVDED episode actually made Young and the military look good as they were the most reasonable.
Really? So leaving Rush on that planet is "Good" in your books?
And fact that Rush put coup at risk by saving Young and Scott doesn't show that he has a solid moral compass?

I don't think we have anyone on Destiny that we can call a "bad guy", but Young is one of the closest to that line. Rush might still fall on the lying, scheming ******* side of that spectrum, but every time it came to risking himself or putting someone else at risk, he chose the former.

So yeah, Young might not be a bad person, but he's a fragile, vulnerable, and impulsive one. Him being in charge of anything that is pivotal to safety of everyone on the ship is a terrifying thought.

And Rush, yes, we don't know what his ultimate goals may be, but he obviously cares about the crew and the ship to risk his own hide, and his decisions are always calculated.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 15th, 2010, 05:07 AM
Re the OP. I, for one, hope we keep the gray characters this show is introducing. In real life people don't wear white and black hats. Villians don't delight in evil for evil's sake. They rationalize, they justify, they believe they are on the side of good regardless of how evil there actions may seem to us. Or they do things they regret and attempt to correct there errors or make up for them with better choices later. All people are flawed in real life.

Thus, neither Young nor Rush is the "good guy". I hope the writers don't attempt to make either into the "good guy".

Mike.
April 15th, 2010, 05:22 AM
Really? So leaving Rush on that planet is "Good" in your books?
And fact that Rush put coup at risk by saving Young and Scott doesn't show that he has a solid moral compass?


Rush was going to leave them to die - he objected saying that if they stop the transfer prematurely Eli might hack back into the systems. Wray ordered him to save them. So did Chloe. Repeatedly. He only saved them once Wray told him that they'd lose the support of the crew if anyone dies.
I'm willing to bet that this was his plan all along: just a few minutes before jumping in FTL + he knew that Young was going to return with the shuttle. The act surprised bit was "a bit of theater, it always helps".

Lets see:
- Rush stranded everyone intentionally (Air I)
- he gated to an unknown place - the gate could have had an iris, the ship could have been decompressed or too damaged to support life (Air I)
- he proposed ordering someone to die based on their resume (Air II)
- framed Young for Murder (Justice)
- he manipulated Franklin to get into the information transfer chair, saying that it would be the only way to get everyone home - which will most likely kill him - something Rush knows because he read O'Neill's mission reports.
- he concealed the fact that he had a tracking device implanted in his chest and so putting everyone in danger (Divided)
- this latest stunt of using the mutiny as cover to kill Young and Scott (Divided)

Rush is a danger to everyone on the ship. What Young had to do in Justice was the right thing - he saved the crew from Rush and this makes him almost a hero. He even gave Rush a chance to drop the issue - but got "It will NEVER be over!" instead.

Here's the whole sequence:

SCOTT: Four minutes.

(Chloe races into the Research Lab and runs over to Rush.)

ARMSTRONG: Stop it. Stop it now.

RUSH: Chloe, we've talked about this.

ARMSTRONG: The shuttle docking clamps won't engage.

RUSH: What?!

ARMSTRONG: You have to stop.

RUSH: But I can't.

ARMSTRONG: They're going to die!

RUSH: I can't stop in the middle of this.

ARMSTRONG: They are going to die!

RUSH: Damn it!

(They stare at each other for a moment, then Rush unhappily picks up his radio and activates it.)

RUSH: Eli, this is Doctor Rush, come in.

(In the Control Interface Room, Eli runs over to grab his radio.)

WALLACE (into radio): Go ahead.

RUSH: Now listen carefully. I'm in the process of transferring access to the computer away from the Control Interface Room. Now, there's nothing you can do to stop that. All you're doing is slowing it down. Let me complete the transfer and I'll lock down the clamps manually.

(With the comms still open between the shuttle and the Control Interface Room, Young and Scott have heard everything.)

YOUNG: Don't listen to him, Eli. Keep doing what you're doing.

(Eli nods.)

RUSH (over radio): Eli, we're in no-man's land here. Neither of us have control. Now let me finish before we jump to F.T.L.

YOUNG: Don't do it, Eli. That is an order.

SCOTT: Two minutes, sir.

(Eli flails, uncertain who to obey. Rush goes over to consult his notebook as Camille runs into the Lab.)

WRAY: What's going on?

ARMSTRONG: The shuttle can't dock and we're about to jump.

RUSH: I didn't know the transfer would cause this to happen.

(He goes back to his seat. Camille looks at Chloe's desperate expression and turns to Rush.)

WRAY: Shut it down.

RUSH: I don't have everything yet. If I stop now, Eli's gonna shut me out and our position will be compromised.

(Camille thinks urgently, unsure what to do. In the Control Interface Room, Eli looks at the countdown clock. Even to those of us who can't read Ancient, it looks like it's into the last minute of its countdown.)

WALLACE: Colonel?

YOUNG: Negative, Eli. Do not let that man take over a single system.

WALLACE: He's doing it anyway!

RUSH: The transfer's almost complete.

(Chloe leans down and stares urgently into his eyes.)

ARMSTRONG: I know why you're doing this. I also know you agreed that nobody should get hurt.

WRAY: We could lose everyone on our side. (Urgently) Shut it down.

(Rush thinks about it for a few seconds, then smiles in a resigned way and pokes the eraser end of his pencil down onto three buttons in quick succession. He raises the pencil and hesitates for a moment and then, with his lips pressed together in frustration, stabs it down onto the final button just as the countdown clock turns red.)

(In the Control Interface Room, Eli's console beeps positively.)

WALLACE: I got it! I got it!

(He activates controls and the clamps rise up and attach the shuttle to Destiny. With the shuttle clamped, the shield recognises it as part of the ship and loops over the top of it just as the ship jumps into F.T.L.)

(In the shuttle, as Scott nods in relief, Young heads for the rear bulkhead which opens.)

blackluster
April 15th, 2010, 10:34 AM
Rush was going to leave them to die - he objected saying that if they stop the transfer prematurely Eli might hack back into the systems. Wray ordered him to save them. So did Chloe. Repeatedly. He only saved them once Wray told him that they'd lose the support of the crew if anyone dies.
I'm willing to bet that this was his plan all along: just a few minutes before jumping in FTL + he knew that Young was going to return with the shuttle. The act surprised bit was "a bit of theater, it always helps". Baseless speculation. If the above event was your metric for questionable behaviour then blame Eli for risking Young and Scott's lives. I'd stake my life on Rush's knowledge of Destiny over Young's ridiculous decisions any day.


Lets see:
- Rush stranded everyone intentionally (Air I)No, his intention was not to strand people.

- he gated to an unknown place - the gate could have had an iris, the ship could have been decompressed or too damaged to support life (Air I) Given that he may have been right about a threat to the destination gate, why risk the lives of 80 people in addition to everyone in the SGC? The smaller risk is the logical choice.

- he proposed ordering someone to die based on their resume (Air II)It was that or everybody died. This is what is called a tough decision. At least Rush was prepared to make it if it came to that.

- framed Young for Murder (Justice)An extreme measure yes, something Young could have avoided a very long time ago. You can blame Young's leadership for that.

- he manipulated Franklin to get into the information transfer chair, saying that it would be the only way to get everyone home - which will most likely kill him - something Rush knows because he read O'Neill's mission reports.I'll believe this nonsense the day Rush is shown to have a mind control device. Franklin was an idiot, end of story.

- he concealed the fact that he had a tracking device implanted in his chest and so putting everyone in danger (Divided)That is a cost equation. Rush has to look at more time needed to work out how to disable the device, versus Young using the opportunity to legitimately kill him. Rush had already taken steps to protect the crew if the aliens arrived before he could figure something out.

- this latest stunt of using the mutiny as cover to kill Young and Scott (Divided)It must be baseless speculation day.

Mike.
April 15th, 2010, 11:20 AM
I see a pattern here.... A bit too many coincidences don't you thinks so ? One or two slip-ups might have been mistakes but the multitude of decisions he took clearly shows his motives (obsessed with Destiny, anyone else is only useful for sacrificing, doing his bidding, and generally expendable, he comes first no matter what).


Baseless speculation. If the above event was your metric for questionable behaviour then blame Eli for risking Young and Scott's lives. I'd stake my life on Rush's knowledge of Destiny over Young's ridiculous decisions any day.

The first part of that section is following the episode exactly - see the quotes. For the second, yeah, speculation, but that's what fans do, speculate. :P It's not unlike something he would do.
Also Rush is not the only one with the knowhow, there are other scientists on board including Eli.



No, his intention was not to strand people.

Yes it was. He could have dialed any other gate. He needs people to operate Destiny/ehatever awaited him on the other side - both the technical aspects and to get food/water/limestone/doctor to cure him with chest-hugger venom/... many others...



Given that he may have been right about a threat to the destination gate, why risk the lives of 80 people in addition to everyone in the SGC? The smaller risk is the logical choice.
He could have dialed some other planet in the MW. Anywhere else.



It was that or everybody died. This is what is called a tough decision. At least Rush was prepared to make it if it came to that.

It shows how he thinks - people are only as valuable as what they can provide - to him. Just because it had to be done doesn't make it any less morally questionable.



An extreme measure yes, something Young could have avoided a very long time ago. You can blame Young's leadership for that.
What did Young do to deserve that ? Nothing. His only mistake was was keeping an eye on Rush and not letting him experiment on the crew (with the chair, etc).



I'll believe this nonsense the day Rush is shown to have a mind control device.
Manipulation works just as well.



Franklin was an idiot, end of story.
Not an idiot, just more impressionable. It doesn't give Rush the right to put his life in danger/experiment on him.



That is a cost equation. Rush has to look at more time needed to work out how to disable the device, versus Young using the opportunity to legitimately kill him. Rush had already taken steps to protect the crew if the aliens arrived before he could figure something out.
In the end Young did find out. Did he throw him out of an airlock ? Nope, he ordered bringing a specialist surgeon from Earth to remove the device.
Rush's steps almost failed. The shield was "barely registering" when they jumped; a few more seconds and they would have been toast. This attack could have been completely avoided if he had come forward earlier. He doesn't have the right to put everyone else in danger when he wasn't even sure what Young would do - especially since Young saved him from the fish tank.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 15th, 2010, 11:57 AM
Mike,




The first part of that section is following the episode exactly - see the quotes. For the second, yeah, speculation, but that's what fans do, speculate. :P It's not unlike something he would do.
Also Rush is not the only one with the knowhow, there are other scientists on board including Eli.

No he's not alone in technical knowledge. However, he does seem to have the best overall grasp of ancient technology.


Yes it was. He could have dialed any other gate. He needs people to operate Destiny/ehatever awaited him on the other side - both the technical aspects and to get food/water/limestone/doctor to cure him with chest-hugger venom/... many others...

I don't believe his intent was to strand. It was his last opportunity to dial the 9th chevron address. He took it, headless of other consequesnces, but without a desire or intent to strand everyone there.


He could have dialed some other planet in the MW. Anywhere else.

Yup, then losing what was likely his only opportunity to dial the 9th Chevron address. Finding out what was there was of greater priorty, in his mind, than getting people home.


Rush's steps almost failed. The shield was "barely registering" when they jumped; a few more seconds and they would have been toast. This attack could have been completely avoided if he had come forward earlier. He doesn't have the right to put everyone else in danger when he wasn't even sure what Young would do - especially since Young saved him from the fish tank.

What reason did Rush have to believe Young wouldn't shove him out of the hole in the ship, given Young's past actions. Rush didn't trust Young at all anymore. In his view it didn't make sense to trust Young. I agree. Young has serious impulse control issues. That shouldn't be ignored.

Neither Young nor Rush is a "Good guy". I sincerely hope no one on this program puts on a white hat or starts twirling their moustache while delighting in their evil plots. It's the greyness of the characters that has made this incarnation of Stargate more interesting to me.

LORD MONK
April 15th, 2010, 12:19 PM
the way to hell is PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS :(

even more:

good guys do not govern/rule with force (or the threaten people with use of the same)

good guys do not point weapons into peoples direction/faces without cause for the slightest misstake

good guys don't let other people (eli) spy on others (rush)

good guys do not have affairs with junior officers

good guys don't beat up other officers (young beating telford)

good guys do not attempt MURDER

good guys (if military) let the civilians take charge in non fighting situations

etc.

so he ain't a good guy no more, now add that he acts stupidly, is in well over his head, does not have real leadership capabilities and does tend to ignore rules (UCMJ - having sex/relationship with TJ) and you pretty well know why the civilians do not like him and want him to stepp down and the military people to surrender their weapons (they would surely give them the weapons back if there is a need to fight/go of world)

greetings LAX

The way to HELL is paved by Bad intensions, that's hopw you get there.

You govern by rule and force. Thats what the CIVILIANS did. The military never pointed there guns at anyone else on the ship until they took it over and the first thing a civilian did when they got a gun was point it at someone.

Goog guys let people spy on other people to get intell for the greater cause. Watch the ep again and then tell me who was spying on who the there person greater cause?

You got me on affairs with junior officers, but then againyou have never been in the military. It's full of sex, sad to say.

Telford got beat up for a reason. He was going around pushing people around and when you do that you get beat up. Don't look at it that way, it's called checking someone and the military checks its own people all the time. Wake up.

So what, good guys frame people for murder?

They are on a SHIP. Name ONE military ship that a civilian controls? I don't remember any ship in the history of scifi that the civilians controlled. Onace again, WAKE UP.

SO, he still is a good guy. None are locked up in cells and Rush and the Asain weren't sent into to space out an air ducked.

Now go back and look at all the crap the Asain and Rush have already pulled. Staging a mutiny during war time is punishable by death. (keep that in mind) Rush never told anyone they were gatingto the Distany or that he had a tracking devise planted in his chest. He took everything on his self in disregard to everyone on the ship.

Young is a good guy and his intensions are for the greater cause for everyone on the ship.
O'ya, Rush tried to commit murder too, but no one else would let him. O wait, thats double murder.

FallenAngelII
April 15th, 2010, 12:20 PM
Rape (Telford's body in "Earth")
Aggravated Assault (later when he comes back posing as someone else, tracks Telford and beats him senseless)
Attempted Murder (on Rush)

Those are 3 violent crimes too great to overlook. The person in command of the Destiny needs to have not even attempted to commit murder.

And, oh, wow, Mike is the successor to all of the Military Apologists that came before him and has amped up the ridiculousness by 1000 degrees. Rush using the mutiny as a cover to murder Scott and Young? Wow, really? You seriously believe that?

I won't even touch that. I've had enough of my share of crazy for a few days.

prion
April 15th, 2010, 12:49 PM
Rape (Telford's body in "Earth")
Aggravated Assault (later when he comes back posing as someone else, tracks Telford and beats him senseless)
Attempted Murder (on Rush)

Those are 3 violent crimes too great to overlook. The person in command of the Destiny needs to have not even attempted to commit murder.

And, oh, wow, Mike is the successor to all of the Military Apologists that came before him and has amped up the ridiculousness by 1000 degrees. Rush using the mutiny as a cover to murder Scott and Young? Wow, really? You seriously believe that?

I won't even touch that. I've had enough of my share of crazy for a few days.

The biggest problem seems to be that Young resolves certain situations with violence, particularly when it comes to personal stuff. Beating the crap out of Telford was huge no-no). As to Rush. They did something similar on SG1. That's the episode with Odo and the white supremicists (I'm really dumbing it down, as can't recall names or titles). Anyway, SG command wants to bring Odo back cuz he's got scientific knowledge they can use, but Jack makes a decision on his own to say "close the iris" and Odo goes SPLAT. He played judge, jury and executioner. In fact, that all sorta turned aroudn when Magnum shot Ivan in MAGNUM PI. Suddenly, vigilante justice was okay. That's cuz we the viewers KNEW the bad guy getting bumped off was the devil's spawn and should die. Even Sam realized what Jack did, but it all sorta got washed under the bridge after that.

Young? Well, his lying about Rush is probably worse than what he did to Rush. In effect, he tossed any trust the civilians might have had him right out the airlock. There's nothiong worse than not being able to trust the people who lead you. Sure, they might kill someone, but you know that straight up. But lying....

Well, then again, Rush is no better. Framing Young for murder. Man, gotta trap those two in an alien elevator with the water rising... ;)

nx01a
April 15th, 2010, 01:53 PM
Their are no good guys. They have both (Rush and Youvng) done some masively questionablr moral activities. That said Young is the lesser of two evilsYou're absolutely right, Jel.

yanna
April 15th, 2010, 02:16 PM
This attack could have been completely avoided if he had come forward earlier.

This attack could have been avoided if Young hadn't marooned him and left him for the aliens to torture and implant that device in him. Not to mention that with the alien vessel stuck on the Destiny, nothing is certain. Rush's knowledge helped them get rid of it, it's not like the rest of them would have discovered it on their own.

How the hell can anyone see Young as a good leader is beyond me. The man cannot understand the limitations of the Destiny, works Eli to death and his military strategy seems to be "I wanna shoot the big gun". They're lucky he hasn't made the ship explode yet. Not to mention that his paranoia and the way he violates everyone's rights with the constant spying is getting too much. He's a proven liar and in way over his head.

How can you lead a group of people where the majority hates your guts and has mutinied once already? Young has failed and in a realistic situation the other members of the military wouldn't support him either.

jelgate
April 15th, 2010, 03:03 PM
This attack could have been avoided if Young hadn't marooned him and left him for the aliens to torture and implant that device in him. Not to mention that with the alien vessel stuck on the Destiny, nothing is certain. Rush's knowledge helped them get rid of it, it's not like the rest of them would have discovered it on their own.

How the hell can anyone see Young as a good leader is beyond me. The man cannot understand the limitations of the Destiny, works Eli to death and his military strategy seems to be "I wanna shoot the big gun". They're lucky he hasn't made the ship explode yet. Not to mention that his paranoia and the way he violates everyone's rights with the constant spying is getting too much. He's a proven liar and in way over his head.

How can you lead a group of people where the majority hates your guts and has mutinied once already? Young has failed and in a realistic situation the other members of the military wouldn't support him either.

I doubt this. The aliens knew about Destiny for awhile

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 15th, 2010, 03:06 PM
LORD MONK,


So what, good guys frame people for murder?

No, but apparently they frame people for aggrivated assault. Or did Young own up to beating the crap out of Col. Telford after claiming to be Dr. Volker?


They are on a SHIP. Name ONE military ship that a civilian controls? I don't remember any ship in the history of scifi that the civilians controlled. Onace again, WAKE UP.

Moya from Farscape. The ship in Blakes 7. Both were made up of civilian crews.

Artemis-Neith
April 15th, 2010, 03:15 PM
I doubt this. The aliens knew about Destiny for awhile

Yes that's true. But, Young gave them unintentionally the best source of information about Destiny the humans have. To leave Rush on that planet turns out to be a bad idea for more than one reason in the end. Well, that's life, you do something which looked like a good idea in the first moment, and then it comes back and bites you! ;)

jelgate
April 15th, 2010, 03:18 PM
Yes that's true. But, Young gave them unintentionally the best source of information about Destiny the humans have. To leave Rush on that planet turns out to be a bad idea for more than one reason in the end. Well, that's life, you do something which looked like a good idea in the first moment, and then it comes back and bites you! ;)

The only information Rush gave was how to speak English. It seems the aliens already knew where Destiny was amd already knew about Destiny's systems

Artemis-Neith
April 15th, 2010, 03:30 PM
The only information Rush gave was how to speak English. It seems the aliens already knew where Destiny was amd already knew about Destiny's systems

I don't know what they might have learned or not learned from him except the word "surrender". Do you have their notes about his interrogations, then, maybe, you know more. And, of course the aliens knew about Destiny, we've seen the small ship in Air III. It'd be not more than a question of time when they'll try to visit Destiny again, but maybe not in this very moment.

nx01a
April 15th, 2010, 03:49 PM
The only information Rush gave was how to speak English. It seems the aliens already knew where Destiny was amd already knew about Destiny's systemsAgain, I agree with ya, Jel... but remember that Rush got enough information from them to fly one of their ships, and I'm sure that two way transfer was unintentional. I'm sure that they've pumped his brain for lots more info intentionally. ;) Everything from info on the Ancients to Earth technology, the situation of the Destiny's crew, etc.

Blackhole
April 15th, 2010, 05:46 PM
Rush was going to leave them to die - he objected saying that if they stop the transfer prematurely Eli might hack back into the systems. Wray ordered him to save them. So did Chloe. Repeatedly. He only saved them once Wray told him that they'd lose the support of the crew if anyone dies.
I'm willing to bet that this was his plan all along: just a few minutes before jumping in FTL + he knew that Young was going to return with the shuttle. The act surprised bit was "a bit of theater, it always helps".

Lets see:
- Rush stranded everyone intentionally (Air I)
- he gated to an unknown place - the gate could have had an iris, the ship could have been decompressed or too damaged to support life (Air I)
- he proposed ordering someone to die based on their resume (Air II)
- framed Young for Murder (Justice)
- he manipulated Franklin to get into the information transfer chair, saying that it would be the only way to get everyone home - which will most likely kill him - something Rush knows because he read O'Neill's mission reports.
- he concealed the fact that he had a tracking device implanted in his chest and so putting everyone in danger (Divided)
- this latest stunt of using the mutiny as cover to kill Young and Scott (Divided)

Rush is a danger to everyone on the ship. What Young had to do in Justice was the right thing - he saved the crew from Rush and this makes him almost a hero. He even gave Rush a chance to drop the issue - but got "It will NEVER be over!" instead.

Here's the whole sequence:

I hadn't considered that it may have been Rush's intention to kill Young. Interesting... Rush said he didn't know that transferring command would have that effect on the docking clamps. If he lied then it was intended. As with the chair incident, we don't know just how evil Rush really is. SGU does a great job with character ambiguity.

Lord Hurin
April 15th, 2010, 07:22 PM
I don't know what they might have learned or not learned from him except the word "surrender". Do you have their notes about his interrogations, then, maybe, you know more. And, of course the aliens knew about Destiny, we've seen the small ship in Air III. It'd be not more than a question of time when they'll try to visit Destiny again, but maybe not in this very moment.

What? You just overrode your previous stance that Young "gave them unintentionally the best source of information about Destiny the humans have." How can you speculate like that and then try shutting down someone else's argument by saying they may or may not have learned anything at all?

As for Young, I like him. Some of the things he's done are morally questionable, but tell me one character on the show who that doesn't apply to save maybe Eli.

-The rape thing I have two issues with. First, from a writing standpoint the scenes between Young and the missus and Wray/ her partner were ABSOLUTELY ridiculous! Fact of the matter, if some stranger comes to your home telling you that they've swapped bodies with your loved one you'll be lucky if they let you inside. Never mind romantic dinners, cuddling, sex, etc. It simply wasn't realistic, especially given that we have no proof that either of the two "normal" people involved (Emily Young and Sharon) knew a great deal about their significant others' careers. Secondly on that, not only do we have no idea one way or the other what kind of waiver body-swappers sign but if Young is guilty of rape then Wray is at least guilty of sexual assault. Kissing and sensual touching with someone not consenting (as is the argument with Telford's body being raped) is still a crime, no? Bottom line, I wish those two scenes could be wiped away. They just don't make logical sense.

-Attempted murder: Well, I can't make any excuses for that. I will say that I don't believe it was premeditated as some do. I'm also uncertain how the SGC or a court-martial would rule. Young felt that Rush was a threat to the ship and everyone on it. I am uncertain as to current military laws regarding such things. In the "old days" you could maroon someone if they farted wrong, but it's obviously different now. I will note the irony in Young's stranding of Rush: the latter accused the colonel of not being able to make tough decisions, then taunted him about not giving up trying to take power. Seconds later, a "tough decision" was made.

Being a good man and a "good guy" aren't necessarily the same thing and they aren't mutually exclusive. I believe Young is a good man at heart, but he's seeing his life slowly unravelling before him. He's in a situation that neither he nor anyone else is trained to be in. He's made mistakes, but as far as I can tell they're not premeditated evil deeds. In the rigid sense, he is not a "good guy" as he has flaws; he has a temper, he's in over his head and he can't always take advice. This doesn't make him a horrible character or a horrible person as far as I'm concerned. After all, to err is human. ;)

Blackhole
April 15th, 2010, 09:06 PM
What? You just overrode your previous stance that Young "gave them unintentionally the best source of information about Destiny the humans have." How can you speculate like that and then try shutting down someone else's argument by saying they may or may not have learned anything at all?

As for Young, I like him. Some of the things he's done are morally questionable, but tell me one character on the show who that doesn't apply to save maybe Eli.

-The rape thing I have two issues with. First, from a writing standpoint the scenes between Young and the missus and Wray/ her partner were ABSOLUTELY ridiculous! Fact of the matter, if some stranger comes to your home telling you that they've swapped bodies with your loved one you'll be lucky if they let you inside. Never mind romantic dinners, cuddling, sex, etc. It simply wasn't realistic, especially given that we have no proof that either of the two "normal" people involved (Emily Young and Sharon) knew a great deal about their significant others' careers. Secondly on that, not only do we have no idea one way or the other what kind of waiver body-swappers sign but if Young is guilty of rape then Wray is at least guilty of sexual assault. Kissing and sensual touching with someone not consenting (as is the argument with Telford's body being raped) is still a crime, no? Bottom line, I wish those two scenes could be wiped away. They just don't make logical sense.

-Attempted murder: Well, I can't make any excuses for that. I will say that I don't believe it was premeditated as some do. I'm also uncertain how the SGC or a court-martial would rule. Young felt that Rush was a threat to the ship and everyone on it. I am uncertain as to current military laws regarding such things. In the "old days" you could maroon someone if they farted wrong, but it's obviously different now. I will note the irony in Young's stranding of Rush: the latter accused the colonel of not being able to make tough decisions, then taunted him about not giving up trying to take power. Seconds later, a "tough decision" was made.

Being a good man and a "good guy" aren't necessarily the same thing and they aren't mutually exclusive. I believe Young is a good man at heart, but he's seeing his life slowly unravelling before him. He's in a situation that neither he nor anyone else is trained to be in. He's made mistakes, but as far as I can tell they're not premeditated evil deeds. In the rigid sense, he is not a "good guy" as he has flaws; he has a temper, he's in over his head and he can't always take advice. This doesn't make him a horrible character or a horrible person as far as I'm concerned. After all, to err is human. ;)

I agree with everything you have said.

Young made a mistake and marooned Rush in a fit of anger. Rush certainly provoked him and Young was right to view him as a threat. Rush hid the fact he had been implanted with an alien tracking device and then staged an immediate mutiny because he knew Young would have it removed when he found out. The Rush supporters have suggested that somehow Rush was justified to hide the fact of the implant because of his fear of Young's reaction. I think this view is not well thought out. How did Rush think the implant scenario would go down, regardless of who is in charge? Once they found out, it would be removed. Bodies would be swapped with a competent surgeon and the operation immediately performed. Even if Young wanted Rush dead what could he do - space him. Young would never get away with ordering anything other than the proper removal. Rush would know the removal scenario would only play out one way. There would be no point in delaying the procedure especially considering how grave the danger the device put Destiny in. The whole mutiny scenario was imo obviously a dramatic plot device that would never have gone down the way it did.

Artemis-Neith
April 15th, 2010, 10:47 PM
What? You just overrode your previous stance that Young "gave them unintentionally the best source of information about Destiny the humans have." How can you speculate like that and then try shutting down someone else's argument by saying they may or may not have learned anything at all?

[...]


No, I didn't overrode my stance.

It's a simply fact, and not a speculation, that Young hand out Rush, with leaving him on that planet, to the aliens, which was surely not intended. For Young, Rush was gone forever, he couldn't impossible know that blue space aliens will come and "rescue" him. What I said in my answer was, the aliens get in this way the best possible source of information the humans possessed, bc until that very moment, nowbody knows more about Destiny than Rush does.

But, what I still don't know is, how much information they really get from him, with the exception of some english words. It is possible that they get enough to take Destiny over, but it is also possible they didn't get what they hoped for, as Rush guessed by himself (and still there must be a reason why they try to catch another human, and end up with Chloe, to gather more informations, I guess).

What they get, or what they don't get lays in the realm of speculation, we can not know for sure, unless we get more informations about that.

Daro
April 16th, 2010, 01:35 AM
I am solidly in the camp that both Young and Rush are protagonists, not 'good guys' or 'bad guys' or any other kind of judgment value character. Neither one is evil, and neither of them are behaving as heroes most of the time yet. Both have heroic moments; Young has had more because Young is the examplary battlefield leader. He is self-sacrificing, brave, no-holds barred. The problem is, he's not so hot off the battlefield. This is easy to prove, from his affair with a junior officer, to his mishandling of civilian concerns, to his attempted murder of Rush. So, the other side of the coin is that Young has also had more villanous moments because he's in a situation that has caused him to lose control of himself, at least for a time. While I don't agree with the military side, "Divided" was a step in the right direction. His soldiers didn't behave themselves in the retaking of the ship, but Young himself did both what I'd expected and what I'd hoped. He was not vindictive, wrathful, or any of the other horrible things he can be. He admits fault. I hope he follows up on that.

Rush is not a bad man, I think. He's as complicated and as flawed as Young. He is emotionally isolated, he starts off on some very bad notes. He lets his obsession with science drive him to put others in a bad situation, a thing which many viewers cannot forgive him for. He forgives himself because he thinks what he did is for the 'greater good.' He is not willfully malicious, and he's also out of his element, suddenly forced by his own deeds to deal with people. His ineptitude shows in his bitter and deceitful behavior; he's been treated badly (right or wrong) by Young and the others, and he uses lies as a tool to deal with situations he can't solve outright. But he is still heroic. He still is just as brave as Young, in his own element, and he's even brave outside of it sometimes (like when he saves Chloe.)

In "Light" we get to see both the heroic Rush and the heroic Young work together, with Math Boy as their sidekick. It was an awesome episode because it showed us just how good a team they might make, someday. The shame of it all is that Rush's anti-social flaws led Young to question him, openly, about the stiuation. Their flaws play off each other to destroy almost instantly the new respect they'd found for one another. Both work from then on out to ruin the other.

The series is not like others. Defenders of Rush often just like Rush's character better than Young's, and visa versa. I rarely defend Young, especially against Rush, because there are plenty of Young fans to do that,etc. So, that's why, I think, we have people who don't agree on who is a hero and who is a villain.

I think we tend to take on the viewpoint of our favorite characters. Those who like Young can see no good in anything Rush does; Rush is nothing but a sneaky, manipulative mad scientist to them. To those who like Rush, Young is a murderous, arrogant, psychopathic dictator.

Phenom
April 16th, 2010, 04:16 AM
People certainly have to stop trying to pigeon hole people into a hero or villain category. This is not SG1 or SGA where we only see how awesome everyone is all the time. Once you get to know all people on this planet, you will eventually realise that everyone is flawed once you get to know them and that trying to put them in the good/bad basket can be like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Appearances can be very deceiving and everyone has a skeleton or two in their closet!!

Young has done some bad things. He cheated on his wife, left Rush to die blah blah blah. But amongst all that, as best we can tell he has the best interests of the crew at heart. Rush has done some bad things too, but a lot of him is still shrouded in mystery. For all we know, he intends to fly the Destiny into a sun on the other side of the known universe.

There are parts of both characters that is bad, and parts that is good. Practically, Young is still the best leader for this group at this time. Is he the same 'all round good guy' like Jack or Shep? Nope. But just remember we are seeing a lot more flaws in these characters than we ever saw in SG1/SGA.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 16th, 2010, 05:00 AM
Phenom,


Young is still the best leader for this group at this time.

So we suppose. We don't know for certian. He could be paranoid in the clinical sense, which would be a problem regardless of his qualifications. That said I agree wholeheartedly with the gentleman who said these aren't "good guys" or "bad guys" they are protagonists and we will see where their relationship will go.

Daro
April 16th, 2010, 05:05 AM
Phenom,



So we suppose. We don't know for certian. He could be paranoid in the clinical sense, which would be a problem regardless of his qualifications. That said I agree wholeheartedly with the gentleman who said these aren't "good guys" or "bad guys" they are protagonists and we will see where their relationship will go.

Lady, not gentleman. But thanks. ;)

I think the more threat these aliens pose, the better Young and Rush will get in the heroic sense. That probably goes for everyone else. I don't think they'll ever be Jack or Daniel, but that's good. I like to see science fiction that evolves with the times. For me, SGU feels like a really good book almost. The complex characters and continuous plot are nice, and it delivers a sense of realism that shows such as Battlestar Galactica were woefully short on. I'm able to watch SGU and maintain my suspension of disbelief.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 16th, 2010, 05:27 AM
Daro,


Lady, not gentleman. But thanks. ;)



My most sincere and humble apologies. With some of these screne names it's very hard to tell.

:)

Daro
April 16th, 2010, 05:44 AM
Daro,



My most sincere and humble apologies. With some of these screne names it's very hard to tell.

:)

No worries, I don't mind. The full nickname has been Daroneasa for years, but people sometimes have trouble pronouncing it, and a lot of my friends just shorten it to Daro anyway, so it stuck.

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 16th, 2010, 07:47 AM
this is all wrong. Young is the good guy here. he has flaws, but his intentions are good. Dr. Rush however, his intentions arent even clear, and civilians cant think for themselves clearly. Military has disciplined these soldiers well to be able to handle such circumstances and in very special circumstances such as this to restore order and protect civilians from themselves. i think DIVDED episode actually made Young and the military look good as they were the most reasonable.
I also tend to see Young as the good guy here. As for Rush, he has another agenda. At the very least, his motives are in question. I think some of the over the top reactions that have been seen are maybe due to some sort of anti-military bias that has more to do with real life than on what is going on in SGU? Again, just a single person's likely flawed opinion...don't kill me :)

KEK
April 16th, 2010, 07:50 AM
this is all wrong. Young is the good guy here. he has flaws, but his intentions are good. Dr. Rush however, his intentions arent even clear, and civilians cant think for themselves clearly. Military has disciplined these soldiers well to be able to handle such circumstances and in very special circumstances such as this to restore order and protect civilians from themselves. i think DIVDED episode actually made Young and the military look good as they were the most reasonable.

Having 'good intentions' doesn't justify a military dictatorship.

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 16th, 2010, 07:59 AM
People certainly have to stop trying to pigeon hole people into a hero or villain category. This is not SG1 or SGA where we only see how awesome everyone is all the time. Once you get to know all people on this planet, you will eventually realise that everyone is flawed once you get to know them and that trying to put them in the good/bad basket can be like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Appearances can be very deceiving and everyone has a skeleton or two in their closet!!

Young has done some bad things. He cheated on his wife, left Rush to die blah blah blah. But amongst all that, as best we can tell he has the best interests of the crew at heart. Rush has done some bad things too, but a lot of him is still shrouded in mystery. For all we know, he intends to fly the Destiny into a sun on the other side of the known universe.

There are parts of both characters that is bad, and parts that is good. Practically, Young is still the best leader for this group at this time. Is he the same 'all round good guy' like Jack or Shep? Nope. But just remember we are seeing a lot more flaws in these characters than we ever saw in SG1/SGA.

completely agree with this
I think this has been one of the things that has changed, one of the things that viewers seem to have wanted to change. We expect characters to be more nuanced. More grey, less with the all heroey all the time.

prion
April 16th, 2010, 09:57 AM
Everybody is flawed - some awfully more than others.

I look at it this way.

I would not trust either Rush or Young to take care of my cat for a weekend. You just know something awful would happen. If you can't trust a person with your pets, you can't trust 'em (besides, Rush would probably make something explosive out of the stuff in the kitty litter!) ;)

Daro
April 16th, 2010, 10:06 AM
Everybody is flawed - some awfully more than others.

I look at it this way.

I would not trust either Rush or Young to take care of my cat for a weekend. You just know something awful would happen. If you can't trust a person with your pets, you can't trust 'em (besides, Rush would probably make something explosive out of the stuff in the kitty litter!) ;)

And thus, the cat-sitting benchmark was born. We could easily sift through all the characters on the show and figure out who meets the minimum requirements to take care of Fluffykins. Then we make them all pick a number, and the winner not only babysits the cat, but gets to be the leader. Problem solved! :D

carmencatalina
April 16th, 2010, 11:02 AM
Definitely not letting either Rush or Young watch the pets. Only doom and despair could follow.

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 16th, 2010, 11:42 AM
better than letting Greer watch your pets. He might eat them. With a side of sweet potatoes.

carmencatalina
April 16th, 2010, 12:47 PM
T.J., I would let T.J. watch the pets. Or better yet, drop them off with Camille's wife (Sharon?) - that way they are safe on Earth (who knows what those blue aliens eat?), and she seems like a good sort.

yanna
April 16th, 2010, 01:25 PM
Young would probably shoot my cat and then tell me she ran away.

Rush would make her sit on the Ancient Chair and she doesn't exactly have brains to spare.

Wray would need to consult with the IOA on proper cat-sitting protocol and with the stones being all screwy by the time they got back to her the cat would have starved.

Eli would probably be good for her but Young is overworking him so he would probably neglect her.

TJ would be great but she's already taking care of so many people, it would be cruel to foist a cat on her on top of everything.

Chloe would probably be too busy with her love life to pay attention.

Ditto for Scott.

Lt. James would probably squeeze the cat to death because she's so lonely on her big empty bed.

Greer strikes me as a dog person esp. since he acts like a loyal pit bull himself. He'd resent the cat for being independent and possibly shoot her. Not sure about eating her but I wouldn't put it past him.

I really can't think of anyone among the major characters who would do a good job.

carmencatalina
April 16th, 2010, 01:29 PM
TJ would be great but she's already taking care of so many people, it would be cruel to foist a cat on her on top of everything.

I really can't think of anyone among the major characters who would do a good job.

You make an excellent point about TJ. I think our only choice is to leave the pets on Earth with Sharon.

Starrtom
April 20th, 2010, 11:00 PM
Young has character flaws like all of us, this does not make him a bad person, or not qualified to be a leader.

Daro
April 20th, 2010, 11:15 PM
Young has character flaws like all of us, this does not make him a bad person, or not qualified to be a leader.

True, but flying into murderous rages is more than a character flaw. I base my judgments on both intent and the choice made at the point of no return. If you are not living up to your own moral code at the most difficult and crucial moments, then you are engaging in a form of cowardice. Everyone falls short, everyone makes huge mistakes. When those huge mistakes include attempting to murder another human being, you've crossed a line. I don't think Young is at all beyond redemption, or incapable of meeting the great potential he has to be a fantastic leader. He hasn't redeemed himself yet. When, in some future episode, he saves Rush's life in a situation where it's truly a hard choice, I'll be back on Young's side.

jelgate
April 20th, 2010, 11:18 PM
True, but flying into murderous rages is more than a character flaw. I base my judgments on both intent and the choice made at the point of no return. If you are not living up to your own moral code at the most difficult and crucial moments, then you are engaging in a form of cowardice. Everyone falls short, everyone makes huge mistakes. When those huge mistakes include attempting to murder another human being, you've crossed a line. I don't think Young is at all beyond redemption, or incapable of meeting the great potential he has to be a fantastic leader. He hasn't redeemed himself yet. When, in some future episode, he saves Rush's life in a situation where it's truly a hard choice, I'll be back on Young's side.

The water tank in Space

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 21st, 2010, 07:42 AM
jelgate,


The water tank in Space

He then goes back to Destiny and starts attempting to destroy the ship on which Rush is traped. As such that is an ambigous act at best.

jelgate
April 21st, 2010, 07:43 AM
jelgate,



He then goes back to Destiny and starts attempting to destroy the ship on which Rush is traped. As such that is an ambigous act at best.Two lives vs the lives of everyone on Destiny. Not much of a choice.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 21st, 2010, 07:48 AM
jelgate,


Two lives vs the lives of everyone on Destiny. Not much of a choice.

Desitiny is about to jump away. Young knows that. It's possible he's desperate to keep everyone else from knowing what happened to Rush. I'm not saying that is his motivation. I'm saying it may be part of his motivation.

jelgate
April 21st, 2010, 07:54 AM
jelgate,



Desitiny is about to jump away. Young knows that. It's possible he's desperate to keep everyone else from knowing what happened to Rush. I'm not saying that is his motivation. I'm saying it may be part of his motivation.
Yep. Lets have the aliens escape so they can gather more troops. Thats a wise move:rolleyes:

I never bought the theory that Young was shooting to cover up Rush. That makes breaking Rush out of the water tank no sense

Daro
April 21st, 2010, 10:59 AM
Jelgate, I'd agree with you, except as others have pointed out, Young's actions are ambiguous at best. I think Young acted heroically to save Rush's life, then had second thoughts. You see his expression change when Rush says "You want to help me?" Like Young was thinking "Um, do I?"

Besides, he says "I don't have a choice" when he is telling Eli to fire on the ship. That indicates to me that he's trying to eliminate Rush, despite the risk of killing himself and everyone aboard Destiny, despite the fact that the aliens are retreating. It may be that he thought leaving Rush in the hands of the aliens was a huge risk itself. But I think it's at least very possible he was also thinking of the reprecussions he'd face if Rush returned.

jelgate
April 21st, 2010, 11:29 AM
Besides, he says "I don't have a choice" when he is telling Eli to fire on the ship. That indicates to me that he's trying to eliminate Rush, despite the risk of killing himself and everyone aboard Destiny, despite the fact that the aliens are retreating. It may be that he thought leaving Rush in the hands of the aliens was a huge risk itself. But I think it's at least very possible he was also thinking of the reprecussions he'd face if Rush returned.
I see "I don't have a choice" more in terms of the threat the aliens calling reinforcements. If he was worried about Rush returning to the Destiny then he would never have freed him from the water tank

Daro
April 21st, 2010, 06:06 PM
I see "I don't have a choice" more in terms of the threat the aliens calling reinforcements. If he was worried about Rush returning to the Destiny then he would never have freed him from the water tank

Young had no indication at all that reinforcements would arrive, nor did he mention it as a reason. Blowing up the ship would be a risk that normally would outweigh firing on a retreating enemy in almost any circumstance. He wasn't behaving rationally. And I stick by my argument, that he rescued Rush and then let his darker side take over.

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 21st, 2010, 06:19 PM
I believe he was behaving perfectly rationally, just thinking militarily. When fired upon, fire back. When a enemy ship, or even possibly a scout ship, looks like it might disappear and bring more reinforcements, stop it by any means necessary. If he had really wanted Rush dead, he could have left him on the ship, or, instead of just breaking the tank, could have kept going and killed Rush right then and there. Somewhere in his head, he's probably thought about how much easier it would be if Rush were out of the picture but Rush being what he is, it's not too hard to understand that. Nobody's noble all the time :D

jelgate
April 21st, 2010, 06:38 PM
Young had no indication at all that reinforcements would arrive, nor did he mention it as a reason. Blowing up the ship would be a risk that normally would outweigh firing on a retreating enemy in almost any circumstance. He wasn't behaving rationally. And I stick by my argument, that he rescued Rush and then let his darker side take over.
But he had no indication that they wouldn't call reinforcements. Its a very real possibility and from a strategtic POV its better to get rid of the enemy so they can't call in greater numbers to blow the Destiny to ashes. One is risky enough for the Destiny they would have been decimated if more had return in that scenario, Feel free to stick by your original arguement. I just don't buy it. It makes no sense to free Rush only to attempt to kill him later.

Daro
April 21st, 2010, 10:09 PM
I never claimed that what Young did makes logical sense. What I'm saying is that he was imbalanced in "Space" and tried to negate his normal, heroic actions out of personal fear. Fear of losing face in front of his men, fear of what Rush would do if allowed to return to Destiny. Young does the right thing without thinking...and when he has a moment to think, he considers the negative consequences and does the wrong thing.
It's true that the aliens could have called in reinforcements, but Destiny probably would have jumped before any could arrive, and at that point Young had no reason to think that they were being tracked. Once in FTL, the problem would have been solved.

Sussitout
April 22nd, 2010, 02:59 AM
The guy in your Avi is the benchmark. Trouble is the Young character lacks Honour: Proven when he soundly thrashed Rush and left him for dead on that planet; Leadership charisma, simply because he is not big enough and he is no Jack O’Neil which leads me on to next thing it useful to have Wit: He is also sadly lacking in this. It would have been better if he was honest about leaving Rush on that planet so perhaps another one is Honesty. So he is lacking in Honour, Leadership skills, Wit and Honesty. He is Humble sometimes but does this equal him being a “good guy”. I think not.

Daro
April 22nd, 2010, 10:57 AM
The guy in your Avi is the benchmark. Trouble is the Young character lacks Honour: Proven when he soundly thrashed Rush and left him for dead on that planet; Leadership charisma, simply because he is not big enough and he is no Jack O’Neil which leads me on to next thing it useful to have Wit: He is also sadly lacking in this. It would have been better if he was honest about leaving Rush on that planet so perhaps another one is Honesty. So he is lacking in Honour, Leadership skills, Wit and Honesty. He is Humble sometimes but does this equal him being a “good guy”. I think not.

It seems to me that when Young has an audience, when he's in the eye of the public, he behaves like a hero. When he is not, when he thinks he can do something without being caught or proof left for others to pass judgment on, he does the wrong thing. Stranding Rush, beating up Telford, etc. I once heard that 'character' is behaving honorably even when there's no one there to see you. By that definition, I think Young is lacking in moral character.

VJC
April 23rd, 2010, 11:52 AM
Rape (Telford's body in "Earth")
It's not rape, watch this Kinosode: http://stargate.mgm.com/view/content/2104/index.html
(Should be number 23 "We Volunteer To Do This"
It's clear that everyone who uses the stones (from Earth) signs a permission form that allows people from the Destiny to do "Personal stuff". As the airman in Chloes body says, "that's kind of the point"



Phenom,
So we suppose. We don't know for certian. He could be paranoid in the clinical sense, which would be a problem regardless of his qualifications. That said I agree wholeheartedly with the gentleman who said these aren't "good guys" or "bad guys" they are protagonists and we will see where their relationship will go.
If he was clinically paranoid I doubt he'd have even been let into the military, let alone into the Stargate program.

JustAnotherVoice
April 23rd, 2010, 12:55 PM
It seems to me that when Young has an audience, when he's in the eye of the public, he behaves like a hero. When he is not, when he thinks he can do something without being caught or proof left for others to pass judgment on, he does the wrong thing. Stranding Rush, beating up Telford, etc. I once heard that 'character' is behaving honorably even when there's no one there to see you. By that definition, I think Young is lacking in moral character.

Young is in good company there, in the morally dubious; but you condemn him without looking at both sides. Yes: he stranded Rush; after Rush stranded 80+ on Destiny out of scientific curiosity (took unilateral action, against Young's orders) and tried to frame Young for murder (one man conspiracy) because Young would get in his way. Yes: he beat up Telford; who was undermining his marriage (insinuated that TJ and Young were knocking boots to Young's wife) and authority on Destiny because he was left behind. And didn't someone try to jump ship (when nobody was looking) when Rush's theatrics made things look bad?

So, if you're going to point fingers for being morally lacking, do it fairly.


Trouble is the Young character lacks Honour: Proven when he soundly thrashed Rush and left him for dead on that planet; Leadership charisma, simply because he is not big enough and he is no Jack O’Neil which leads me on to next thing it useful to have Wit: He is also sadly lacking in this. It would have been better if he was honest about leaving Rush on that planet so perhaps another one is Honesty. So he is lacking in Honour, Leadership skills, Wit and Honesty. He is Humble sometimes but does this equal him being a “good guy”. I think not.

1) Lacking in honour is a fair point, but to make it sound like Rush is totally innocent is naive. The man framed Young for murder, and the two have been locked in a power struggle since gating through, because Rush (more or less) took unilateral action to strand them on the Destiny. A LOT of pent up frustration there, given the content of Young's pre-Icarus scenes on Earth. One lapse in judgement does not take away from being willing to sacrifice himself (Air pt 2), giving up his seat on the shuttle (Darkness), doing everything he can to save Scott (Water), or personally leading a highly dangerous mission (Time).

2) So a guy lacks leadership skills because he isn't happy-go-lucky? I doubt Jack would be all too happy if he was stranded on the other side of the universe, suffering from the after effects of a concussion, malnourished, just about everyone with an ego gunning for the job he doesn't want, in addition to dealing with a failing marriage.

Jack could be Jack because he knew he'd have a warm and familiar bed to go home to, friends to whine to/chill out with, and most importantly, off hours; provided he survived the next mission. Young doesn't even have the luxury of knowing when his mission would end. I'm sure that frays some nerves. Besides, Jack's "personal issues" didn't really come up beyond the movie and a few mentions of his boy in season 1, and certainly it wasn't compounded by other things (suicidal O'Neil from the movie notwithstanding).

3) A guy needs wit to be a good leader? That would mean that Greer is the closest thing to a good guy on Destiny. Maybe Rush, but I can never tell if he's trying to be witty or if he's just really bitter and sarcastic because he can't have a decent conversation.

4) He has as much honesty as anyone else on or visiting Destiny. Everyone over 40 seems to have ulterior motives (i.e. take command for whatever reason). Company of thieves and all, right?

JustAnotherVoice
April 23rd, 2010, 01:01 PM
If he was clinically paranoid I doubt he'd have even been let into the military, let alone into the Stargate program.

Flying out of a stargate with the force of an exploding planet and wanging his head probably caused untold brain injury, especially given their limited medical tools. For all we know, his paranoia (and to some, lapses in judgement) could be a direct result from it.

If they really wanted Young to step down, this would have been the most compelling line to use.

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 23rd, 2010, 02:48 PM
Flying out of a stargate with the force of an exploding planet and wanging his head probably caused untold brain injury, especially given their limited medical tools. For all we know, his paranoia (and to some, lapses in judgement) could be a direct result from it.

If they really wanted Young to step down, this would have been the most compelling line to use.
agreed on both posts :)
Rush had a meltdown due to lack of coffee and cigarettes (and maybe a few other issues). Young, for all we know, is facing the same type of withdrawal issues, along with an injury, weird stone behaviour, marital problems, backstabbing and being framed for murder. Maybe stranding Rush on the planet was his version of a meltdown and, to Young's credit, he isn't proud of that moment. Going on words alone (because there's so much more there) the two characters have stated that they'd move on for the sake of the crew.

Daro
April 23rd, 2010, 03:26 PM
Young is in good company there, in the morally dubious; but you condemn him without looking at both sides. Yes: he stranded Rush; after Rush stranded 80+ on Destiny out of scientific curiosity (took unilateral action, against Young's orders) and tried to frame Young for murder (one man conspiracy) because Young would get in his way. Yes: he beat up Telford; who was undermining his marriage (insinuated that TJ and Young were knocking boots to Young's wife) and authority on Destiny because he was left behind. And didn't someone try to jump ship (when nobody was looking) when Rush's theatrics made things look bad?

So, if you're going to point fingers for being morally lacking, do it fairly.



1) Lacking in honour is a fair point, but to make it sound like Rush is totally innocent is naive. The man framed Young for murder, and the two have been locked in a power struggle since gating through, because Rush (more or less) took unilateral action to strand them on the Destiny. A LOT of pent up frustration there, given the content of Young's pre-Icarus scenes on Earth. One lapse in judgement does not take away from being willing to sacrifice himself (Air pt 2), giving up his seat on the shuttle (Darkness), doing everything he can to save Scott (Water), or personally leading a highly dangerous mission (Time).

2) So a guy lacks leadership skills because he isn't happy-go-lucky? I doubt Jack would be all too happy if he was stranded on the other side of the universe, suffering from the after effects of a concussion, malnourished, just about everyone with an ego gunning for the job he doesn't want, in addition to dealing with a failing marriage.

Jack could be Jack because he knew he'd have a warm and familiar bed to go home to, friends to whine to/chill out with, and most importantly, off hours; provided he survived the next mission. Young doesn't even have the luxury of knowing when his mission would end. I'm sure that frays some nerves. Besides, Jack's "personal issues" didn't really come up beyond the movie and a few mentions of his boy in season 1, and certainly it wasn't compounded by other things (suicidal O'Neil from the movie notwithstanding).

3) A guy needs wit to be a good leader? That would mean that Greer is the closest thing to a good guy on Destiny. Maybe Rush, but I can never tell if he's trying to be witty or if he's just really bitter and sarcastic because he can't have a decent conversation.

4) He has as much honesty as anyone else on or visiting Destiny. Everyone over 40 seems to have ulterior motives (i.e. take command for whatever reason). Company of thieves and all, right?

I have, in previous posts, acknowledged Young's reasoning for the dubious actions Young undertakes. The question I was answering was why some don't see Young as a good guy. He may have good reasons for doing what he does, but at the end of the day, resorting to vigilante justice and underhanded schemes to exact revenge (however Telford or Rush might deserve it) is not the way an honorable leader should behave. He must lead by example if he is to be trusted by his crew. There were perfectly open and honest ways to go about addressing Rush's crimes and Telford's dishonourable behavior. As I mentioned, Young could have used the open court system he helped establish in "Justice" to deal with Rush. And he could have made the information about Telford going after his wife available in a formal complaint. Telford may then be reprimanded for behavior unbecomming of an officer.

At the end of the day, the argument in my mind is not about what's justified as much as it is about Young's leadership. If he's going to get everyone to work together, he must not undermine his position. He must take the high road, even (especially) if his adversaries do not. Rush is not trusted by anyone but Chloe; few have forgotten that he is the reason everyone is stranded on Destiny. However, no matter what punishment he may deserve for that, he is essential to the ship's survival. It would be emotionally gratifying to see him get what's coming to him, sure. A competent commander must conduct any attempt to answer the injustices Rush has perpetrated in a way that doesn't cast doubt on his own moral clarity.

Fair or not.

JustAnotherVoice
April 23rd, 2010, 07:50 PM
I have, in previous posts, acknowledged Young's reasoning for the dubious actions Young undertakes. The question I was answering was why some don't see Young as a good guy. He may have good reasons for doing what he does, but at the end of the day, resorting to vigilante justice and underhanded schemes to exact revenge (however Telford or Rush might deserve it) is not the way an honorable leader should behave. He must lead by example if he is to be trusted by his crew. There were perfectly open and honest ways to go about addressing Rush's crimes and Telford's dishonourable behavior. As I mentioned, Young could have used the open court system he helped establish in "Justice" to deal with Rush. And he could have made the information about Telford going after his wife available in a formal complaint. Telford may then be reprimanded for behavior unbecomming of an officer.

At the end of the day, the argument in my mind is not about what's justified as much as it is about Young's leadership. If he's going to get everyone to work together, he must not undermine his position. He must take the high road, even (especially) if his adversaries do not. Rush is not trusted by anyone but Chloe; few have forgotten that he is the reason everyone is stranded on Destiny. However, no matter what punishment he may deserve for that, he is essential to the ship's survival. It would be emotionally gratifying to see him get what's coming to him, sure. A competent commander must conduct any attempt to answer the injustices Rush has perpetrated in a way that doesn't cast doubt on his own moral clarity.

Fair or not.

Ok, I'll admit that I'm late to this party and I must have missed your earlier posts.

I hope the person you were answering has equally compelling reasons as to why they think Rush/Wray/whoever is "good". Young can only be as dark as the light that shines on him and all that jazz, right?

The core issue, for me, isn't right vs wrong, good or bad, or who holds the moral high ground. They all double talk; they all cast doubt on their moral centres. No one can claim moral superiority over the others on that ship. Command on Destiny is nothing more than a popularity contest, and I think Young, for all his failings, realises that. It has little to do with moral strength, justice or anything that falls on the good side of society's moral compass; instead, it centres on everything wrong because that is how the characters forced the situation: not a single individual, but only through a collective effort did they bring themselves to this point.

One man who will do anything to go home; one man who will do anything to stay there; one woman who will do anything for the captain's chair. The issue on command and the morality question on SGU shouldn't be "who's the brightest?" Instead, it should be "who's the least dark?" Given everything we've seen on screen, I'd still put my money on Young. Milk and honey to his friends; hellfire and brimstone to his enemies.

Expecting anyone on the show to come clean as a white knight may take a while.

Now that I think about it, one of the greatest injustices done to Young is comparing him to Jack, John or anyone else back in the Milky Way or Pegasus. People may as well compare Young's failings with all the successes of Picard or Janeway. When the situation is that much bleaker, of course the characters will seem to be that much more lacking.

Daro
April 23rd, 2010, 10:51 PM
Ok, I'll admit that I'm late to this party and I must have missed your earlier posts.

I hope the person you were answering has equally compelling reasons as to why they think Rush/Wray/whoever is "good". Young can only be as dark as the light that shines on him and all that jazz, right?

The core issue, for me, isn't right vs wrong, good or bad, or who holds the moral high ground. They all double talk; they all cast doubt on their moral centres. No one can claim moral superiority over the others on that ship. Command on Destiny is nothing more than a popularity contest, and I think Young, for all his failings, realises that. It has little to do with moral strength, justice or anything that falls on the good side of society's moral compass; instead, it centres on everything wrong because that is how the characters forced the situation: not a single individual, but only through a collective effort did they bring themselves to this point.

One man who will do anything to go home; one man who will do anything to stay there; one woman who will do anything for the captain's chair. The issue on command and the morality question on SGU shouldn't be "who's the brightest?" Instead, it should be "who's the least dark?" Given everything we've seen on screen, I'd still put my money on Young. Milk and honey to his friends; hellfire and brimstone to his enemies.

Expecting anyone on the show to come clean as a white knight may take a while.

Now that I think about it, one of the greatest injustices done to Young is comparing him to Jack, John or anyone else back in the Milky Way or Pegasus. People may as well compare Young's failings with all the successes of Picard or Janeway. When the situation is that much bleaker, of course the characters will seem to be that much more lacking.

I agree that comparing Young to previous commanders is unfair. They were there of their own free will and he most certainly is not. Rush is the only one who is, and he's got other demons gnawing at him that make his reasons for being dark just as valid as anyone else's. I can't say I agree that Young is least dark so far; Wray is, to me. She has not acted especially badly, though her motives are questionable. She seems to always hold up the rights of the individuals on that ship, even when it might not be the best thing for her personally. We just don't trust her because of her IOA connections.

For me, the ultimate goal they all have to keep in mind is survival, and getting the people who don't want to be there home. I also want to see Rush succeed in his own mission to stay there. I don't particularly wish evil on any of them, I can understand and sympathize with all of them. The question of who should command is fairly valid, but at the end of the day, letting any of their personal problems throw the fate of the crew into jeapordy is downright wrong. Again, so far, Wray seems to be the least guilty of taking risks with other peoples' lives.

JustAnotherVoice
April 24th, 2010, 04:15 AM
I can't say I agree that Young is least dark so far; Wray is, to me. She has not acted especially badly, though her motives are questionable. She seems to always hold up the rights of the individuals on that ship, even when it might not be the best thing for her personally. We just don't trust her because of her IOA connections.

For me, the ultimate goal they all have to keep in mind is survival, and getting the people who don't want to be there home. I also want to see Rush succeed in his own mission to stay there. I don't particularly wish evil on any of them, I can understand and sympathize with all of them. The question of who should command is fairly valid, but at the end of the day, letting any of their personal problems throw the fate of the crew into jeapordy is downright wrong. Again, so far, Wray seems to be the least guilty of taking risks with other peoples' lives.

Fair enough, but for me, her questionable motives are enough to colour her darker than Young, simply because we don't know what they are. With Young and Rush, they're pretty straight forward, even if we don't like their methods (the authoritarian vs the chess master). I have to wonder if Wray would have tried anything had her superior not explicity told her to try, which is what makes her so dangerous. She is willing to gamble against Young's experience and Rush's intellect, but hasn't shown us anything that would indicate she has anything close to a plan or direction outside of McCarthyism and fear mongering.

She's the Bones of the power trio, in that she has a fraction of the screentime compared to Young (Kirk) or Rush (Spock). Still, calling her the Bones of the trio an unfair comparison - to date, she has had neither the opportunity (in all 5 mins of her official command) nor expertise (can she even read ancient?) written into her character to be able to directly put anyone's life at risk. Hell, until her coup attempt, she was little more than set dressing with familiar but not-quite-marquee value to TV land. But the sheer audacity of the half baked coup makes her, quite possibly, the darkest character of the three. Her willingness to risk total dissolution of their already tenuous social cohesion potentially risked more than Young or Rush (since stranding everyone on Destiny, that is). Fanning the flames of paranoia and mistrust, I would find it a bit "out there" if any of the civilians would trust the military again. If she truly believed it was a battle worth fighting for, then more power to her, but she didn't have an escape or contingency plan. I'm willing to bet that both Young and Rush would have an alternate scheme in motion, or (for Rush, if he wasn't against the clock), would have predicted all the possible outcomes.

If she were a character on either of the other shows in the franchise, she would be a shining beacon for moral standards, but this is Universe. Her moral absolutism is a double edged sword, and in "clean" scenarios like the ones in the Milky Way, or even the "good natured bumbling" in Pegasus, it wouldn't matter. She would probably have been seen as a female version of Woolsey - deep down, a good person with strong moral values acting under questionable orders. But for me, in Universe, she's the equivalent of a crazy woman on a soapbox, preaching about how much better things will be when the alien overlords come and reclaim their pets.

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 24th, 2010, 08:50 AM
...
Now that I think about it, one of the greatest injustices done to Young is comparing him to Jack, John or anyone else back in the Milky Way or Pegasus. People may as well compare Young's failings with all the successes of Picard or Janeway. When the situation is that much bleaker, of course the characters will seem to be that much more lacking.
I agree, I think that's a huge injustice. Not only in that the situation is bleaker and that they didn't choose to be on this mission, but also for the fact that there is a different style of writing in SGU than in the previous shows. These people are supposed to have flaws; they were never intended to be perfect by any means. I keep trying to avoid making comparisons with the other two in the series but it keeps coming up anyway. There was a time when writing a "Jason Bourne" spy character was unthinkable, when writing a darker Bond character was unthinkable, and that's because at one point there was this notion of the hero in a certain light. Flaws were perhaps hinted at, but they were never truly explored, and they definitely didn't flavor the characters the way we are seeing in the modern writing of a 'hero' type character. Maybe we don't want 'heroes', at least not as heroes, anymore. I think that if the O'Neill or Sheppard roles were ever revised (oh boy, I can just hear the pitchfork wielding mob at the door!), we'd see more flaws, more humanity. Perhaps then it would be fair to make comparisons.

Ser Scot A Ellison
August 26th, 2010, 03:00 PM
Duneknight,


this is all wrong. Young is the good guy here. he has flaws, but his intentions are good. Dr. Rush however, his intentions arent even clear, and civilians cant think for themselves clearly. Military has disciplined these soldiers well to be able to handle such circumstances and in very special circumstances such as this to restore order and protect civilians from themselves. i think DIVDED episode actually made Young and the military look good as they were the most reasonable.

So, Young had "good intentions" when he ambushed and asaulted Col. Telford? When he attacked and marooned Dr. Rush to die? I don't think Young is a bad man. I think he is deeply flawed and has serious anger issues particularly when under pressure. All those things make him more interesting as a character. However, he isn't the guy I'd pick to have in charge when the Poop hits the fan.

jelgate
August 26th, 2010, 03:09 PM
Duneknight,



So, Young had "good intentions" when he ambushed and asaulted Col. Telford? When he attacked and marooned Dr. Rush to die? I don't think Young is a bad man. I think he is deeply flawed and has serious anger issues particularly when under pressure. All those things make him more interesting as a character. However, he isn't the guy I'd pick to have in charge when the Poop hits the fan.
Yes. Rush has shown he will go as far as possible to get what he wants

Ser Scot A Ellison
August 26th, 2010, 03:13 PM
jelgate,


Yes. Rush has shown he will go as far as possible to get what he wants

So, why lie about what he did if his actions were justified?

jelgate
August 26th, 2010, 03:15 PM
jelgate,



So, why lie about what he did if his actions were justified?
Because what is right is not always popular

xxxevilgrinxxx
August 26th, 2010, 03:17 PM
Because what is right is not always popular

green!

Ser Scot A Ellison
August 26th, 2010, 03:23 PM
jelgate,


Because what is right is not always popular

True enough, but, why lie to Gen. O'Neill about what happened?

jelgate
August 26th, 2010, 03:24 PM
jelgate,



True enough, but, why lie to Gen. O'Neill about what happened?
Um he didn't

Ser Scot A Ellison
August 26th, 2010, 03:35 PM
Young didn't report to O'neill for a week or more? What would O'Neill have done if Young told him what he did and that he was lieing to everyone on Destiny about what he did?

jelgate
August 26th, 2010, 03:38 PM
Young didn't report to O'neill for a week or more? What would O'Neill have done if Young told him what he did and that he was lieing to everyone on Destiny about what he did?

Who knows? Thier is no point in random speculation.

Ser Scot A Ellison
August 27th, 2010, 05:17 AM
jelgate,


Who knows? Thier is no point in random speculation.

Why not? Is it customary for American Military officers to summarily execute civilians who are under their charge? How does the military heirarchy commonly react to actions like those of Col. Young?

spinny magee
August 27th, 2010, 05:25 AM
Ok firstly, assuming for some reason this were real life, he has my seal of approval for lasting this long, hes under a crap load of pressure, hes got Wray trying to crawl up his rectumn, to his left Scott and Chloe smooching whilst Eli watches on with an evil look, another corner TJ being pregnant and in front of him Greer torching civvies who found his stash of "plants".

Assaulting Rush: Frankly if someone had been peeving me off for that long, lieing, and trying to frame me i'd almost do the same
Telford: Well played is all I can say.

Ser Scot A Ellison
August 27th, 2010, 05:27 AM
spinny,


Ok firstly, assuming for some reason this were real life, he has my seal of approval for lasting this long, hes under a crap load of pressure, hes got Wray trying to crawl up his rectumn, to his left Scott and Chloe smooching whilst Eli watches on with an evil look, another corner TJ being pregnant and in front of him Greer torching civvies who found his stash of "plants".

Assaulting Rush: Frankly if someone had been peeving me off for that long, lieing, and trying to frame me i'd almost do the same
Telford: Well played is all I can say.

Are these the actions of someone who is calm and collected in moments charged with emotion and pressure?

spinny magee
August 27th, 2010, 05:31 AM
spinny,



Are these the actions of someone who is calm and collected in moments charged with emotion and pressure?

Again, put yourself in his shoes, he ain't no pimpin Spock or Teal'c (yes spock is a pimp).

If you walked in on let's say......you are Scott and you find Greer Smooching Chloe do you
A: Slap Greer whilst squealing
B: Say "Good man, I lose goodbye"
C: Get Young to airlock both of them
D: Get the nearest .45 and go on a rampage not realising you left the ammo behind and the safety is on.
E: Pretend it never happened.

Oh well, such is life.

Ser Scot A Ellison
August 27th, 2010, 05:37 AM
spinny,

I was referring to attacking Telford and marooning Rush to die.

Lahela
August 27th, 2010, 05:51 AM
Because what is right is not always popular

What he did (stranding Rush on that planet) was not "right" by any stretch of the imagination. It may have been expedient, Rush may have pushed him past his limits, Rush may have done something utterly despicable, but none of those things make it "right".

Artemis-Neith
August 27th, 2010, 06:22 AM
What he did (stranding Rush on that planet) was not "right" by any stretch of the imagination. It may have been expedient, Rush may have pushed him past his limits, Rush may have done something utterly despicable, but none of those things make it "right".

Exactly. A good excuse never turns something wrong in something right.

xxxevilgrinxxx
August 27th, 2010, 06:26 AM
Exactly. A good excuse never turns something wrong in something right.

which could be said about ANY of their actions, Rush's included

Artemis-Neith
August 27th, 2010, 06:29 AM
which could be said about ANY of their actions, Rush's included

That applies to any action of any person, it's neither exclusive to Rush, or Young. ;)

Lahela
August 27th, 2010, 06:43 AM
which could be said about ANY of their actions, Rush's included

Totally agree. I don't believe I've ever said otherwise.

myhelix
August 27th, 2010, 06:59 AM
I think Young is a good guy, but he have the tendencies to first act than think.
And also he likes not to explain his actions to anyone (like Rush do, too.) It´s his military background I suppose. And that makes them more alike than they both would admit. Where Rush can be cold and pragmatic, Young can be the opposite. Like Ying and Yang (I like that dynamic)
however, leaving Rush behind was not the smartest choice, he could let have work the advantage of that situation for him, with knowing Rush have framed him for Spencers death. But he let his anger take control, and Rush know to play that out in his favour.

Ser Scot A Ellison
August 27th, 2010, 08:14 AM
Myhelix,

Young's issues are more than military training, in my opinion. He lets his emotions get the better of him on a regular basis. That's not a good trait in a commanding officer.

Deevil
September 3rd, 2010, 07:42 AM
Because what is right is not always popular

What's right usually is whats popular. Right is decided by the masses in society (and is constantly developing and changing), not by some moral virtue bestowed on a singular individual allowing them to make decisions on life or death. That's why there is a Prosecutor and a Defense Attorney who present their case to a Jury for the most 'popular' decision to be reached on a person's guilt or innocence.

It's the foundation of our justice system.

What Young did was neither popular or right, it was hot tempered and selfish.

Sami_
September 4th, 2010, 02:43 AM
I don't doubt Young's intentions at all - he is definitely a good guy.

Rush on the other hand is pretty much the polar opposite, he has some very ugly character traits the most obvious of which is out narcissistic he is. He neglected his wife when she was dieing, he stranded people on Destiny because of his desire to dial the 9th chevron, he shows zero compassion and is constantly trying to get people to sacrafice themselves for the "greater good" (three times now?) but never seems to volunteer himself.

Deevil
September 4th, 2010, 03:01 AM
What does Rush's character traits have to do with Young being a good guy? Rush can be the biggest Donkey in the universe, but that doesn't make Young a good guy in the comparison pools (or visa versa).

Young is a guy who is clearly also narcissistic, quick to temper, violent, bullying, cloying and on occasion irrational. These things don't mean that he isn't working towards what he believes to be the greater good, but it doesn't mean they are the 'greater good' either.

Personally anyone who leaves someone to die, or threatens their life when they don't like the way they are being questioned doesn't fit into the 'good guy' category - but we all have our own definitions to apply here.

Sami_
September 4th, 2010, 03:39 AM
Exactly. A good excuse never turns something wrong in something right.

Yeah but Rushs' actions were pre-meditated, Young's weren't - he just has a bad temper.

Ser Scot A Ellison
September 4th, 2010, 06:14 AM
Sami,

Young's job demands he keep a level head. Rush's, not so much.

jelgate
September 6th, 2010, 08:48 AM
Sami,

Young's job demands he keep a level head. Rush's, not so much.

Double standards is never a wise judgment call. If we are going to say if Rush or Young is right then the same criteria should be used

Ser Scot A Ellison
September 7th, 2010, 03:54 AM
Young's position requires a much higher level of professionalism in his interpersonal relationships. He's in command of the ship and those on board. Rush's job is to investigate and understand the ship itself. As such the two different positions lend themselves to differing standards of accountability. Young's position demands higher scrutiny because he has much greater authority over those on board.

Sami_
September 7th, 2010, 04:24 AM
Young does not have to demonstrate a "higher level of professionalism in his interpersonal relationships", he is a Colonel in the USAF, when he gives an order it has to be followed - even by civilians on a base under his command.

I imagine the common practice in the military nowadays is a court martial for disobeying an order from your superior, far less a Colonel in the Special Forces (which basically is what anyone attached to Stargate command is). However in the past anyone disobeying a direct order in a combat situation could easily have been shot like was a common occurence in WWI and WWII by pretty much all sides, its a different time and situation in SGU granted but the reasons for it make sense in my opinion and I imagine even today the closer they are to a life-threatening situation the more likely someone would get shot instead of escorted to a court martial.

Ser Scot A Ellison
September 7th, 2010, 05:34 AM
Sami,

Yes, he does. What happens to commanders who regularly crap on their subordinates? This irrespective of the fact that most of the people on Destiny are not in the Military and do not, theoretically, have to obey Young as their superior officer.

Deevil
September 7th, 2010, 06:36 AM
However in the past anyone disobeying a direct order in a combat situation could easily have been shot like was a common occurence in WWI and WWII by pretty much all sides

Well if you are going to bring up the past, it was also a semi-common occurrence for superior officers to be killed by their own subordinates too. So maybe they should just shoot Young given that it is also a life threatening situation (not that I am advocating killing Young).

Sami_
September 7th, 2010, 07:10 AM
This irrespective of the fact that most of the people on Destiny are not in the Military and do not, theoretically, have to obey Young as their superior officer.

They do have to obey him, they were working on a military base on Icarus and that command structure is transferred to Destiny.

Just like a civilian on a base in Iraq would have to follow instructions given by the ranking officer of that base.


Well if you are going to bring up the past, it was also a semi-common occurrence for superior officers to be killed by their own subordinates too. So maybe they should just shoot Young given that it is also a life threatening situation (not that I am advocating killing Young).

Big difference, my example was within the law, your's isn't.

Deevil
September 7th, 2010, 07:39 AM
Big difference, my example was within the law, your's isn't.

Sure it was (your example) to a point. While battlefield executions happened, they were not necessarily [always] legal; not necessarily the right course of action either. If Young were to engage in similar actions, while I think it'll be great for the show (and I really do), it wouldn't put him in the position of being a 'good man'.

Though he did do something similar, to a civilian no less. Yeah, not only not a good man - not a good CO either.

ETA That being said, I don't think Young is a bad person either. He's just a guy who does what he thinks is right, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Unfortunately he is well on his way down that road.

Sami_
September 7th, 2010, 08:52 AM
Sure it was (your example that is), at the time. Doesn't necessarily make it the right course of action. If Young were to engage in similar actions, while I think it'll be great for the show (and I really do), it wouldn't put him in the position of being a 'good man'.

Though he did do something similar, to a civilian no less. Yeah, not only not a good man - not a good CO either.

Well I'm not saying it makes him good only that killing someone in a situation where dissension and defiance can lead to death for those around you can be morally justifiable.

Rushs' actions of framing Young would have effectively removed the only experienced military officer from command in a dangerous environment where that leadership could be the difference between life and death. In my opinion Rush presented a risk compareable to a soldier on the battlefield that cannot follow orders.

Its like in horror or zombie films where there is always some loose cannon in the group that is likely to get everyone killed by opening a locked door in a futile effort to save themselves or getting bitten by a zombie and not telling anyone until he's trying to eat their brains, those people just need to be killed before they become a problem.

(can't believe there isn't a trope for that, at least not one I can find :()

Deevil
September 7th, 2010, 09:00 AM
Well I'm not saying it makes him a good only that killing someone in a situation where dissension and defiance can lead to death for those around you can be morally justifiable.

Except the situation is that Young isn't IMO suited for command, his actions with Rush just highlighted that. Young's actions, his paranoia and inability to communicate with the civilians is also dangerous as is his inability to make some tough choices.

He acted out of anger with Rush, it had nothing to do with the safety of a crew so to suggest that as a reason for his actions doesn't work for me TBH.

While I now understand better where you are coming from (thanks), I just can't fall into that line.

Just to add - I am not suggesting that Rush acted well because he didn't, but this thread isn't about whether or not Rush is a good man. It's about Young.

Sami_
September 7th, 2010, 09:16 AM
He has proven he is suited for command, he is a Colonel in the USAF so I think we should just put aside the idea that he can't command.

What Young doesn't do is pacify this pathetic self-determination crusade that the civilians seem to be on despite the fact that they have more important things to worry about. The bottom line is that those social issues are secondary to their survival and without the most qualified, experienced and high-ranking military officer in command the chances of survival are reduced dramatically - having someone else in command only raises the level of bueracracy in an environment where they can ill-afford to debate decisions.

Ser Scot A Ellison
September 7th, 2010, 11:00 AM
Sami,


They do have to obey him, they were working on a military base on Icarus and that command structure is transferred to Destiny.

Just like a civilian on a base in Iraq would have to follow instructions given by the ranking officer of that base.


So Civilians are subject to the UCMJ and Court's Martial? They are part of the chain of command? I don't believe that is correct. Young is cut off from any real help from Earth. He can consult with his superiors but other than that no real help regarding personel and material are available. He may be able to rule by the barrel of a gun but doing so isn't smart and even he admits that.

jelgate
September 7th, 2010, 01:51 PM
Sami,



So Civilians are subject to the UCMJ and Court's Martial? They are part of the chain of command? I don't believe that is correct. Young is cut off from any real help from Earth. He can consult with his superiors but other than that no real help regarding personel and material are available. He may be able to rule by the barrel of a gun but doing so isn't smart and even he admits that.
They are under the military chain of command. It won't lead to a court martial but failure to follow the military officer's does result in legal action for the civillians..

Ser Scot A Ellison
September 7th, 2010, 02:43 PM
jelgate,


They are under the military chain of command. It won't lead to a court martial but failure to follow the military officer's does result in legal action for the civillians..

Given their circumstances what good does the "threat of legal action" do? They're "several billion light years from home" with no good prospects for getting home. Earth has absolutely no way of affecting anything on that ship directly. Why does the chain of command back home matter in the slightest?

Deevil
September 7th, 2010, 07:33 PM
He has proven he is suited for command, he is a Colonel in the USAF so I think we should just put aside the idea that he can't command.

Makepeace was a Colonel too (in SG1) and he proved that not only was he not suited for command but that he was a traitor to his own country/world. Not to mention there are different types of command. You would not put someone in the Transport corps in charge of a Infantry corps. Young is clearly better suited (although not completely) for a desk job, not for the active position he has found himself in. So no, I can't put the idea asside that he is not suited for command.


The bottom line is that those social issues are secondary to their survival and without the most qualified, experienced and high-ranking military officer in command the chances of survival are reduced dramatically - having someone else in command only raises the level of bueracracy in an environment where they can ill-afford to debate decisions.

Actually those social issues are very important to a productive and safe environment. You ignore those issues, you are not a good leader. A leader has to do far more then bark and order and demand they are followed, something that Young doesn't seem to understand.

Having someone else in command means that a) Young doesn't have to deal with something he is ill equiped to do and, b) No one else has to put up with his dangerous, violent and inconsistent command. As for debating decisions being ill-afforded, having a emotionally unstable man making said decisions is more dangerous then a debate.

Sami_
September 7th, 2010, 10:35 PM
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, anyone reaching the rank of Colonel has proven they have a good grasp of command in my opinion, its hardly a common rank in any military and is only achieved by exceptional officers.

Could anyone have dealt with the situation in Faith better than Young?

Rush wanted to round them up at gunpoint and force them back to the ship, Wray wanted to let them stay and split the crew - weakening both groups, all the characters on the planet showed no concern for the people they left on the ship and what losing their skills would mean to them. Young was the only person thinking rationally and resolved the situation without dividing the crew or resorting to force.

Pharaoh Atem
September 7th, 2010, 10:36 PM
in young we trust

Deevil
September 7th, 2010, 10:41 PM
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, anyone reaching the rank of Colonel has proven they have a good grasp of command in my opinion, its hardly a common rank in any military and is only achieved by exceptional officers.

And exceptional officers can go bad or suffer from mental health issues. Colonel is not an uncommon rank in the military either.


Could anyone have dealt with the situation in Faith better than Young?

Except his desire to keep TJ on board had nothing to do with his need to keep the crew together - it was selfish (although the right thing to do). In the end the civs had every right to decide to settle on the planet if they so wanted. They aren't owned by Young. Currently the military have little choice but it's going to come to a point that even they have to be offered one.

Did Young do the right thing? Maybe. That doesn't mean he is a good leader for the people on Destiny. We will have to agree to disagree here.

Sami_
September 7th, 2010, 10:43 PM
in young we trust

So say we all!

-- Admiral Adama/Barack Obama

Sami_
September 7th, 2010, 10:46 PM
Except his desire to keep TJ on board had nothing to do with his need to keep the crew together - it was selfish (although the right thing to do). In the end the civs had every right to decide to settle on the planet if they so wanted. They aren't owned by Young. Currently the military have little choice but it's going to come to a point that even they have to be offered one.

It had nothing to do with TJ, he said "No" before Scott even mentioned TJ's name.

Pharaoh Atem
September 7th, 2010, 10:47 PM
-- Admiral Adama/Barack Obama

since when >?

Deevil
September 7th, 2010, 10:48 PM
It had nothing to do with TJ, he said "No" before Scott even mentioned TJ's name.

Your point? I was speaking specifically about his reasons for TJ, not about anyone else.

Sami_
September 7th, 2010, 10:57 PM
Your point? I was speaking specifically about his reasons for TJ, not about anyone else.

TJ never had a choice in the matter, she is a member of the USAF and is subject to orders.


since when >?

http://www.theonion.com/articles/obama-depressed-distant-since-battlestar-galactica,2693/

Deevil
September 7th, 2010, 11:02 PM
TJ never had a choice in the matter, she is a member of the USAF and is subject to orders.

*headdesk* I know, I said that.

Sami_
September 7th, 2010, 11:09 PM
*headdesk* I know, I said that.

So what does Young's "desire" have anything to do with it? She never had the option and Young was never going to let any of his military personnel out of his command.

Why do you even think his attitude toward TJ coming back was anything other than professional. She is clearly the most valuable of all the military personnel because of her skills as a medic and he practically said as much when he told her that the people on Destiny needed her. If there was any of the military that he should have been more vocal in staying than the rest it would be TJ based on skills alone.

Deevil
September 7th, 2010, 11:12 PM
So what does Young's "desire" have anything to do with it?

'Cause I think it does. While she is a value member of the team, she is also someone that he cares deeply about. The fact that he cares about her supercedes anything to do with her usefulness to the rest of the people. I didn't say that was a bad thing, though I am amused that you seem to think that it is.

Sami_
September 7th, 2010, 11:15 PM
'Cause I think it does. While she is a value member of the team, she is also someone that he cares deeply about. The fact that he cares about her supercedes anything to do with her usefulness to the rest of the people. I didn't say that was a bad thing, though I am amused that you seem to think that it is.

I never said it was a bad thing at all, I am asking what indication do you have that he wanted TJ to stay out of "desire"? because clearly there are very good reasons for him to want her to stay that aren't desire.

Deevil
September 7th, 2010, 11:18 PM
I never said it was a bad thing at all, I am asking what indication do you have that he wanted TJ to stay out of "desire"? because clearly there are very good reasons for him to want her to stay that aren't desire.

The second TJ's name was mentioned as one of the people who wanted to stay behind his small no became more then emphatic. It was clearly (to me) driven by his own personal desires.

Sami_
September 7th, 2010, 11:22 PM
The second TJ's name was mentioned as one of the people who wanted to stay behind his small no became more then emphatic. It was clearly (to me) driven by his own personal desires.

Yes because she has valuable skills that they need to survive, more than enough reason to become "emphatic".

Deevil
September 7th, 2010, 11:27 PM
Yes because she has valuable skills that they need to survive, more than enough reason to become "emphatic".

There is a very personal connection we have seen throughout the entire season between TJ and Young, to suggest that his personal care for TJ wasn't his primary concern there doesn't make any sense to me. It may to you, and I'm not telling you you're wrong, just sayin' what I see.

Sami_
September 7th, 2010, 11:29 PM
There is a very personal connection we have seen throughout the entire season between TJ and Young, to suggest that his personal care for TJ wasn't his primary concern there doesn't make any sense to me. It may to you, and I'm not telling you you're wrong, just sayin' what I see.

Right, so given that there was good reason both for his decision and to get emphatic about it I don't see how you can use it as damning evidence on his command and say that decisions he makes are based on "desire" as you did several posts ago and called him selfish for doing so.

Deevil
September 7th, 2010, 11:31 PM
Right, so given that there was good reason both for his decision and to get emphatic about it I don't see how you can use it as damning evidence on his command and say that decisions he makes are based on "desire" as you did several posts ago and called him selfish for doing so.

That is NOT what I said in reference to TJ at all. I have given my reasons for why I don't think he is fit for command, agree or not they will still be my reasons.

Sami_
September 7th, 2010, 11:38 PM
Except his desire to keep TJ on board had nothing to do with his need to keep the crew together - it was selfish (although the right thing to do). In the end the civs had every right to decide to settle on the planet if they so wanted. They aren't owned by Young. Currently the military have little choice but it's going to come to a point that even they have to be offered one.

Seems like it.

Deevil
September 8th, 2010, 12:33 AM
Seems like it.

What, saying that his personal wants are selfish is just a statement. TJ wanting to stay on the planet was equally as selfish. As was Scott's reasons. I'm not sure why you have a problem here.

Sami_
September 8th, 2010, 02:01 AM
What, saying that his personal wants are selfish is just a statement. TJ wanting to stay on the planet was equally as selfish. As was Scott's reasons. I'm not sure why you have a problem here.

Your position is clearly that Young is not a competent leader and your posts are your opinions as to why, now you are claiming that its "just a statement" when it fact it was an attempt to condemn him as someone who makes decisions based on his desires.

Why bring it up otherwise in the context of the conversation.

Deevil
September 8th, 2010, 02:05 AM
Your position is clearly that Young is not a competent leader and your posts are your opinions as to why, now you are claiming that its "just a statement" when it fact it was an attempt to condemn him as someone who makes decisions based on his desires.

Misinterpret what I said to your hearts content, you obviously have it in your head what you think I meant (in regards to TJ and Young in the episode Faith) despite my statements to the contrary.

ETA and clearly my position is that Young is unfit to lead, never pretended otherwise. I don't think his choices in Faith were entirely determined by his position, but rather his feelings. He ended up making the right decision, one that he should have made given his position anyway (in regards to the military personnel, not so much the blackmailing of civs and military alike) so it's all fine, and in this case emotion lead him to making what would be the semi-right decision. Whatever lead him there was good, as caring about someone as he does for TJ hasn't lead to others being hurt.

Although, that's not to say that it wont so he has to check that. All in all that was more of a statement to his character in this case rather then his ability to command.

Sami_
September 8th, 2010, 02:09 AM
Misinterpret what I said to your hearts content, you obviously have it in your head what you think I meant (in regards to TJ and Young in the episode Faith) despite my statements to the contrary.

Okay, you had no purpose in claiming that he made a decision based on desire while having a conversation in regard to his leadership.

Completely a standalone non-related statement - got it. :rolleyes:

Deevil
September 8th, 2010, 02:15 AM
Completely a standalone non-related statement - got it. :rolleyes:

I added an edit, I was speaking to his character not his command. If you like I can make it about his command and his inability to separate his feelings from his job, but I would rather not as one of the important parts of being in the military is caring for your brothers in arms, knowing they have your back. Perhaps Young and TJ took that too literally, but still, no harm has come to them, or anyone has been sacrificed because of their relationship so I don't think it's a problem. It could very well become one though.

Sami_
September 8th, 2010, 02:37 AM
I added an edit, I was speaking to his character not his command. If you like I can make it about his command and his inability to separate his feelings from his job, but I would rather not as one of the important parts of being in the military is caring for your brothers in arms, knowing they have your back. Perhaps Young and TJ took that too literally, but still, no harm has come to them, or anyone has been sacrificed because of their relationship so I don't think it's a problem. It could very well become one though.

You are assuming a lot from an emphatic "No" which given the situation would make sense had he no feelings whatsoever for TJ.

Deevil
September 8th, 2010, 02:43 AM
You are assuming a lot from an emphatic "No" which given the situation would make sense had he no feelings whatsoever for TJ.

No, what I am doing is taking into consideration his previous behaviour with TJ and I applied that information to how quickly his 'no' (and he said more then no at that point too) became more emphatic, potentially could be read as panicked once her name was mentioned as one of the people who wanted to stay. These singular events don't live in a bottle; interpretation of actions can traverse a great number of episodes.

I understand you have read the events differently and where you are coming from with your opinion on this topic, I just can't personally get behind that reading.

Sami_
September 8th, 2010, 02:52 AM
Even if his reaction was a result of his feelings for TJ, which I disagree with, but assuming it is true its no different to Jack not leaving Sam behind in upgrades and later saying something like he would have rather died than leave her behind because he cared for her much more than hes supposed to.

Has anyone ever even suggested that it should reflect badly on his ability to command?

Also in Red Sky O'Neill was about to kill one of the locals because they caused the death of two of his men, though I'm sure you have never advocated removing O'Neill from command of SG-1.

Deevil
September 8th, 2010, 03:00 AM
Has anyone ever even suggested that it should reflect badly on his ability to command?

Did I say that this reflected badly on Young's command? The reasons I think Young shouldn't be in command have nothing to do with this moment, although I am deeply deeply amused that you keep on arguing that I did!

As for your Jack/Sam references, I don't disagree with it up till Faith. After that, knowing she is pregnant with his child makes things different. While he hasn't had to make a decision that favours her, doesn't mean that he wont in the future. Should be interesting should that ever come up.

Laxian of Earth
January 11th, 2018, 06:57 AM
this is all wrong. Young is the good guy here. he has flaws, but his intentions are good. Dr. Rush however, his intentions arent even clear, and civilians cant think for themselves clearly. Military has disciplined these soldiers well to be able to handle such circumstances and in very special circumstances such as this to restore order and protect civilians from themselves. i think DIVDED episode actually made Young and the military look good as they were the most reasonable.

The road to hell is also paved with good intentions they say! Hell, a lot of bad guys (organized criminals for example or people like the NID-Spooks if you want to use a Stargate example!) had good intentions (pretty up the neighborhood where they were born (some criminals do that, but that doesn't change the fact that they kill, steal, embezzle etc. in order to be able to do that!), save Earth by stealing technology (which might make the good guys in the Galaxy, like the Asgard (!), hate humanity!))!

Does that make them good guys? Nope! It might make them human, but it doesn't mean that I wouldn't rather deal and work with people who aren't like that! Give me SG-1 any day instead of those scumbags (especially the military!) on the Destiny! Threatening civilians into complaince at the point of a gun? Yeah, how about no? They should have depressurised the sections the soldiers were in IMHO (they can collect their gear and weapons later on and then run the ship way better than with those trigger happy barbarians along who'd rather behave like thugs than civilized people!)

greetings LAX
ps: I wouldn't work with Young, I'd simply stop working (what's he going to do? Shoot me?) and the rest would probably, too (so no food, no repairs on the ship etc.)...have fun soldier-boys!

Alterus
June 25th, 2018, 06:39 AM
Ahhhh..... it has been stated that these are the wrong people to be there, they were never to really serve on board Destiny even if Lucian Alliance didn't screw things up.

Young is the only LEADER among them. Military has its chain of command but yet the CIVILIAN personnel is only concerned about being in charge. Rush wants it, the IOA chick wants it, the rest just want someone else to be in charge other then Military. But with Aliens recently attacking Destiny who would you rather have in charge? A Military commander with combat experience or a potentially mad scientist who seems to be just gambling?

He has problems, duh, but when everyone's attitudes begin to cloud their judgement and dissension amongst them begins someone also needs to be the level head and try to play referee, sumtimes its needed to get into a persons face and yell. Rush does not care about the others (we know this already) he will sacrifice others for his goals. As for the planet thing.... Rush had it coming you know it, I know it everyone knows it.

For the idea that in non fighting times the Civilian Government has all power and the Military should listen to them is an obviously good idea, but in chaotic situations like what is currently happening on Destiny the Military needs to keep things in control. The Military on board Destiny are like the police force, they keep the peace, but when you have more then one person attempting to SEIZE power from others by force, and those people may not have the best intentions the Military needs to keep things in control.

Young, I think, realizes that they are stuck, and they need to find a way to live together.... otherwise why not expose Rush after the events of "Divided". I think people don't want to see this (From Destiny Crew P.O.V.)

Rush, potential mad scientist with no regard for others take power

Young, Military commander keeping things the way they are

IOA Chick (Cant remember her name ever!) Closest thing to a politician who has no knowledge of ship systems and will have to rely only on everyone else and not really contributing to anything in the long run.

You have any other ideas for a Leader? Military, for now, is best, Young is the best choice to keep running things.

Someone else, anyone else like in Atlantis the Military answers to a civilian commander just as Sheppard answered to Weir and Woolsey

Xaeden
June 26th, 2018, 08:21 AM
Someone else, anyone else like in Atlantis the Military answers to a civilian commander just as Sheppard answered to Weir and Woolsey

What exactly was Wray's role in Icarus? I'm not incredibly versed in SGU, but my understanding is that she had some degree of power (Johansen seemed obligated to go to talk to her about leaving for her scholarship), but she was more of an observer sent to keep an eye on the money the IOA was spending and thus perhaps had to rubber stamp personnel changes. There could be more details that were revealed in later episodes that I don't remember, but I am of the understanding that Young was ultimately in charge at Icarus and his civilian oversight came from reporting to his superiors back on Earth who reported to a civilian government.

Technically, that chain still exists on the Destiny as Young is able to use the communication stones to answer to his military commanders on Earth who answer to a civilian government. When the civilian rebellion happened, Wray talked about the importance of the military answering to a civilian government, but as she had no previous authorization to give orders to those military personnel as far as I'm aware, she was attempting to create her own power structure independent of the existing one.

Alterus
July 5th, 2018, 09:48 AM
What exactly was Wray's role in Icarus? I'm not incredibly versed in SGU, but my understanding is that she had some degree of power (Johansen seemed obligated to go to talk to her about leaving for her scholarship), but she was more of an observer sent to keep an eye on the money the IOA was spending and thus perhaps had to rubber stamp personnel changes. There could be more details that were revealed in later episodes that I don't remember, but I am of the understanding that Young was ultimately in charge at Icarus and his civilian oversight came from reporting to his superiors back on Earth who reported to a civilian government.

Technically, that chain still exists on the Destiny as Young is able to use the communication stones to answer to his military commanders on Earth who answer to a civilian government. When the civilian rebellion happened, Wray talked about the importance of the military answering to a civilian government, but as she had no previous authorization to give orders to those military personnel as far as I'm aware, she was attempting to create her own power structure independent of the existing one.

That technically didn’t suit the IOA when Sam was in charge of Atlantis, it was made pretty apparent that they didn’t want a Military officer in charge so I fail to see how they can tolerate Young muscling his way into becoming de facto head of the Destiny Expedition.

Chaka-Z0
July 5th, 2018, 12:09 PM
That technically didn’t suit the IOA when Sam was in charge of Atlantis, it was made pretty apparent that they didn’t want a Military officer in charge so I fail to see how they can tolerate Young muscling his way into becoming de facto head of the Destiny Expedition.

This is an unpopular opinion, but I agree 100% with them for Sam. I always found she was a terrible leader and her acting was out of character. She kept second-guessing every single decision including her own, and acted on impulsion and emotion most of the time.

The IOA is looking for the perfect puppet and never seem satisfied with the leader in place, which is kind of ironic since they are supposed to provide OVERSIGHT, not run the show. They wanted Woolsey in, they got it, then they wanted him out, the Asian lady came in, they betrayed her for some other random candidate which resulted in an A+ to Dick's evaluation. I think Woolsey was the best fit (once he came around). Rational, sometimes cold, yet lenient enough to adapt of the reality in the Pegasus galaxy. He was my favorite out of all the Atlantis Commanders.

As for Young, what exactly do you expect the crooks from the IOA to do about it? It's not like any representative can be sent to the ship, it's all talk. Young didn't muscle his way in, he was trapped on the ship like everybody else and I do not see in this expedition anybody else that could stand up to take his place. If you recall, Young didn't even want the Icarus command in the first place. Wray definitely doesn't have the respect from all members of the crew, unlike Young (at the end of s2 when they got their sh*t together).

The day-to-day survival situation on Destiny calls for a military commander, not a civilian. Most importantly, the crew needs someone that can keep Rush in check.

Xaeden
July 5th, 2018, 06:18 PM
That technically didn’t suit the IOA when Sam was in charge of Atlantis, it was made pretty apparent that they didn’t want a Military officer in charge so I fail to see how they can tolerate Young muscling his way into becoming de facto head of the Destiny Expedition.

It didn't originally work for them with the SGC either, but they eased up on their idea of using a civilian as a check on the U.S. military with O'neill and continued to do so when Landry was brought in to replace him, even after they started funding the Stargate Program. There is no consistency here because it's a complicated political back and forth between international powers and the U.S. government, which we are only partially privy to. The U.S. government has, as of Sg-1's season 10, restricted access to weapons technology that comes out of the Stargate Program and, in doing so, twisted the meaning of an earlier agreement. The U.S., however, needs the International community to keep paying to help them get this technology and needs to keep them from going public, so they will make concessions on a case by case basis to keep them appeased.

Atlantis is a huge operation that is consistently funneling new technology and technology related data back to Earth and for that reason the IOA wants someone they think they can control in a position of overall authority. Weir turned out to be more independent than liked, but her effectiveness made it hard to oust her. Carter was a temporary ceding of power to the U.S. military while they were fearful of a replicator attack. Woolsey was supposed to be the biggest possible puppet to fill the role with, but that too didn't work out for them.

I don't know what the behind the scenes wrangling was for the Icarus Project. Maybe the IOA intended to repeat their Atlantis model and put someone they thought they could control in a position of power over Telford when putting together the real team. Maybe that changed when the wrong people went through because the Destiny turned out to be less important than they hoped it to be, maybe it changed because as long as Young and co were trapped there was no money to pour into upkeep so they didn't have leverage over the U.S., maybe it changed because putting Wray, who led an insurrection without any authority to do, was not a preferable alternative to Young when the point of a civilian expedition leader is to have someone the IOA can control, or maybe it was never part of the plan because the U.S. won this one, perhaps because they had placated the Chinese to some degree by previously giving up a 304, and they were milking that one for everything it was worth, down to who would be in charge of the Destiny expedition. I have no idea. All I know is that, as far as I can remember, there was never any attempt by the IOA to install an existing crew member above Young, so they either let this one go for whatever reason or they tried it, but lost when the U.S. insisted that the crew needed a military commander.