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Ser Scot A Ellison
April 12th, 2010, 11:47 AM
The mutiny failed. That's quite clear. However, the science team in choosing to attempt to take control missed a golden opportunity to assert their real ability to control their circumstances. Simply sit down and refuse to work. What's Col. Young going to do shoot people? He can't, if he does he loses valuable necessary members of the team on Destiny.

I support shared authority between the military and civilians on board. I think a strike would work. Anyone else agree. Should Young be willing to shoot people to end a strike?

hisg1fans
April 12th, 2010, 12:23 PM
The mutiny failed. That's quite clear. However, the science team in choosing to attempt to take control missed a golden opportunity to assert their real ability to control their circumstances. Simply sit down and refuse to work. What's Col. Young going to do shoot people? He can't, if he does he loses valuable necessary members of the team on Destiny.

I support shared authority between the military and civilians on board. I think a strike would work. Anyone else agree. Should Young be willing to shoot people to end a strike?


Isn't going on strike what the civilians did after the mutiny started? They all stopped working and sat in the commissary eating all the food and drinking all the water. They went on strike when the civilians had control. Do they want to die faster?

I would think (or at least hope) the civilians would realize survival comes first and that means doing something productive like ensuring shelter, triaging the wounded, making/finding water, making/finding food, making/findina a way home, etc. Doing nothing makes everybody die faster, the civilians included.

The military are willing to do some work and adapt as needed. Just look at the sick bay TJ created/modified/learned on the fly. Plus, the military personnel are trained in survival techniques. IMO, they will last longer than the whiny civilians.

So the civilians are only cutting their own throats by being lazy and going on strike.

Lahela
April 12th, 2010, 12:24 PM
Isn't going on strike what the civilians did after the mutiny started? They all stopped working and sat in the commissary eating all the food and drinking all the water. Do they want to die faster?

I would think (or at least hope) the civilians would realize survival comes first and that means doing something productive like ensuring shelter, triaging the wounded, making/finding water, making/finding food, making/findina a way home, etc. Doing nothing makes everybody die faster, the civilians included.

Were they eating and drinking, or just sitting? I don't recall.

Jeffala
April 12th, 2010, 12:41 PM
I agree with shared authority--just not with Wray or Rush. They're untrustworthy.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 12:52 PM
Were they eating and drinking, or just sitting? I don't recall.
They were just sitting.

They could go on a strike as far as non-essential jobs are concerned (i.e. the jobs required to keep them alive). It would show the military that they can't do jack squat without the civilians.


I agree with shared authority--just not with Wray or Rush. They're untrustworthy.
I love it how many people call Wray, of all people, untrustworthy, but never doubt Young's trustworthiness, even after all the crimes he's committed. If Young remains in command in some capacity, then Wray should get her share as well.

KEK
April 12th, 2010, 01:01 PM
Isn't going on strike what the civilians did after the mutiny started? They all stopped working and sat in the commissary eating all the food and drinking all the water. They went on strike when the civilians had control. Do they want to die faster?

I would think (or at least hope) the civilians would realize survival comes first and that means doing something productive like ensuring shelter, triaging the wounded, making/finding water, making/finding food, making/findina a way home, etc. Doing nothing makes everybody die faster, the civilians included.

The military are willing to do some work and adapt as needed. Just look at the sick bay TJ created/modified/learned on the fly. Plus, the military personnel are trained in survival techniques. IMO, they will last longer than the whiny civilians.

So the civilians are only cutting their own throats by being lazy and going on strike.

Going on strike has nothing to do with being lazy.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 12th, 2010, 01:05 PM
hisg1fans,


Isn't going on strike what the civilians did after the mutiny started? They all stopped working and sat in the commissary eating all the food and drinking all the water. They went on strike when the civilians had control. Do they want to die faster?

I would think (or at least hope) the civilians would realize survival comes first and that means doing something productive like ensuring shelter, triaging the wounded, making/finding water, making/finding food, making/findina a way home, etc. Doing nothing makes everybody die faster, the civilians included.

The military are willing to do some work and adapt as needed. Just look at the sick bay TJ created/modified/learned on the fly. Plus, the military personnel are trained in survival techniques. IMO, they will last longer than the whiny civilians.

So the civilians are only cutting their own throats by being lazy and going on strike.

I don't think they were striking. I think they were waiting. I really wanted them to refuse to return to their quarters when ordered to go by Young. Again, what's he going to do start shooting people one at a time?

Daro
April 12th, 2010, 01:09 PM
The science team going on strike is tricky business. Everyone on that ship must accept that in every encounter, it will take the efforts and skills of all useful members of the team to help the Destiny and the crew survive.

That said, they aren't having encounters every day. The science team does other things that don't directly impact survival, at least not immedietly. In those cases, yes, they may want to strike if things on board the Destiny stay the same, with the military dictatorship in place. This is not to say that I hate the military, but their leader has shown that he is not in control of himself, and makes decisions that jeapordize lives and the Destiny itself when he loses his temper. When problems are brought to his attention, such as with Spencer, he ignores them. When suggestions are made by other 'leaders,' like Rush and Wray, he threatens them to get them to shut up. Case in point, "Light," where he threatens to remove Wray from the lottery after she suggests that he needs to pick the fifteen that will board the shuttle. Right or wrong, offensive or not, he meets other people's opinions with indifference at best, and hostility at worst. His mishandling of the civilians aboard the ship make it necessary for someone to do something. Since the revolt failed, the scientists have only one coin to trade with: their skills.

This excludes Eli, who is on Young's side for now. And he is, when properly motivated, a force to be reckoned with in the realm of technology and operation of the Destiny.

They'll go on strike, probably at the worst time possible. Volker and Brody seem to be the second-in-commands of Rush's team, and they will probably raise hell if Rush is imprisoned for his attempted coup. The non-scientists, though we only know a few of them (like Chloe,) will probably also cause trouble if Wray is imprisoned too.

Jeffala
April 12th, 2010, 01:26 PM
I love it how many people call Wray, of all people, untrustworthy, but never doubt Young's trustworthiness, even after all the crimes he's committed. If Young remains in command in some capacity, then Wray should get her share as well.

I'm sorry, did I ever state that I trusted Young but just forget about it? I'm talking about Wray and Rush.

Tuvok
April 12th, 2010, 03:39 PM
The mutiny failed. That's quite clear. However, the science team in choosing to attempt to take control missed a golden opportunity to assert their real ability to control their circumstances. Simply sit down and refuse to work. What's Col. Young going to do shoot people? He can't, if he does he loses valuable necessary members of the team on Destiny.

I support shared authority between the military and civilians on board. I think a strike would work. Anyone else agree. Should Young be willing to shoot people to end a strike?

Yeah, of course the Military could do the same thing.

Hey who should go to the hostile Jungle enviroment and search for resources. Cause we quit.

I mean you could send the Civies, just try not to shoot each other at the first noise that startles you.

Hey those blue aliens are back. Let's send Volkner out with a bunch of mathematicians to get into a dogfight with them . Oh try not to freezer up and crap yourself.

Hey um we have Lucian borders storming the gateroom. You civies hold em up Greer and Scott are having a poker night in the commissary

There can only be one leader because the last thing you need during a crisis are three different opinions and a voting process . Young can't share leadership . It doesn't work that way, he can however be a bit more open minded in listening to Wray as long as it's reasonable. And maybe taking Rush to word regarding tech, to a point.

Daro
April 12th, 2010, 04:35 PM
I disagree entirely with your opinion that only a military leader can be in charge. Young has messed up so much in so many ways that I wouldn't trust him to run a popsickle stand.

But you do have a point. While everyone is having a tantrum about the civilians, it's important to keep one thing in mind. When the sh** hits the fan, it's the military who do the dying, usually. They're the ones who will fight any enemies that show up, they're the ones who lay down their lives willingly when things get dicey. Some of the scientists (like Rush and Eli) have shown they will also fight when the situation warrents, but most of the others would be useless unless they were manning the ship's defenses.

Whatever their faults and flaws, the military is essential to the crew's survival. The opposite is true, so both sides need each other. In light of that fact, there should be at least two, if not three, leaders making the decisions. The military commander should be in charge during any armed confrontation, but he should also be running his decisions by the science leader so that he doesn't accidently blow up the ship.

nx01a
April 12th, 2010, 04:39 PM
If they want to die, then go on strike. The military and the scientists have equal duty on the ship: both are there to keep everyone alive. Either one going on strike would equal everyone dying.

Tuvok
April 12th, 2010, 04:51 PM
I disagree entirely with your opinion that only a military leader can be in charge. Young has messed up so much in so many ways that I wouldn't trust him to run a popsickle stand.

But you do have a point. While everyone is having a tantrum about the civilians, it's important to keep one thing in mind. When the sh** hits the fan, it's the military who do the dying, usually. They're the ones who will fight any enemies that show up, they're the ones who lay down their lives willingly when things get dicey. Some of the scientists (like Rush and Eli) have shown they will also fight when the situation warrents, but most of the others would be useless unless they were manning the ship's defenses.

Whatever their faults and flaws, the military is essential to the crew's survival. The opposite is true, so both sides need each other. In light of that fact, there should be at least two, if not three, leaders making the decisions. The military commander should be in charge during any armed confrontation, but he should also be running his decisions by the science leader so that he doesn't accidently blow up the ship.

Oh I don't think only a military person should be wholely in charge. I belive at this moment, for now he is the only viable option.

But, if there was someone else like Weir or Woolsley on the ship. Then yeah they should split the power. Share it not switch leaders. Definitely a plan to go with . Unfortunately , we don't. Rush I would leave in charge of ship running. But leave oversight on him via Eli . As for running civies\ military personal . Well, while I pity Wray a little for trying her best. Her habit of underestimating and undervaluing the military leaves me much doubt about her suitability .

Daro
April 12th, 2010, 04:56 PM
Exactly, and if one side tried it, they'd get into a bad situation and quickly realize how much one side needs the other. I doubt anyone is going to say "I'm on strike" when they are in the middle of a situation where they will die if they don't cooperate with their crew mates.

Daro
April 12th, 2010, 05:01 PM
Oh I don't think only a military person should be wholely in charge. I belive at this moment, for now he is the only viable option.

But, if there was someone else like Weir or Woolsley on the ship. Then yeah they should split the power. Share it not switch leaders. Definitely a plan to go with . Unfortunately , we don't. Rush I would leave in charge of ship running. But leave oversight on him via Eli . As for running civies\ military personal . Well, while I pity Wray a little for trying her best. Her habit of underestimating and undervaluing the military leaves me much doubt about her suitability .

I think Eli supervising Rush would be a bad idea. Eli is already too confused about where he stands on everything. He's just a kid, and he's been wrong several times when Rush has been right. Rush is the best scientific asset they have, and Eli comes in as a close second. They need to be a team, because things work best that way. But Rush needs to be able to make the final call in most situations.
Wray bothers me, I think she's up to no good, but we just don't know enough about her yet.

As bad as the options may seem, we only have the people we have. I say they figure out their power structure and see what happens from there

Tuvok
April 12th, 2010, 05:21 PM
I think Eli supervising Rush would be a bad idea. Eli is already too confused about where he stands on everything. He's just a kid, and he's been wrong several times when Rush has been right. Rush is the best scientific asset they have, and Eli comes in as a close second. They need to be a team, because things work best that way. But Rush needs to be able to make the final call in most situations.
Wray bothers me, I think she's up to no good, but we just don't know enough about her yet.

As bad as the options may seem, we only have the people we have. I say they figure out their power structure and see what happens from there

Hmmm..I thought Eli cause he's the only I could picture him savvy enough to keep Rush on his toes . But yeah , Good point about the confusion part. Poor math boy is stressed as is. If this keeps up he is going to turn the KINO into his personal Daleks and declare himself King of Destiny.

And that won't end well.

nx01a
April 12th, 2010, 05:24 PM
I always thought the Kinos looked like Toclafane...

Daro
April 12th, 2010, 05:26 PM
Hmmm..I thought Eli cause he's the only I could picture him savvy enough to keep Rush on his toes . But yeah , Good point about the confusion part. Poor math boy is stressed as is. If this keeps up he is going to turn the KINO into his personal Daleks and declare himself King of Destiny.

And that won't end well.


Oh. My. God. That would be awesome and horrifying at the same time. But I'm not ruling it out. After all, Eli is such a nice, sweet, innocent guy that he'd be the last person we'd suspect in trying to figure out who will be the villain in the end.
Eli should keep an eye on Rush, but not actively. Having a Kino following the poor guy around constantly is not good. If Eli needs to act in order to stop Rush from doing something nefarious, I'm sure he'd get help or do it on his own anyway. It's the back and forth between the two camps that's keeping him from making his own decisions.

Morganskywalker
April 12th, 2010, 05:48 PM
The mutiny failed. That's quite clear. However, the science team in choosing to attempt to take control missed a golden opportunity to assert their real ability to control their circumstances. Simply sit down and refuse to work. What's Col. Young going to do shoot people? He can't, if he does he loses valuable necessary members of the team on Destiny.

I support shared authority between the military and civilians on board. I think a strike would work. Anyone else agree. Should Young be willing to shoot people to end a strike?

That could work. Until a few weeks later, when a hostile alien race decides to board, and the military simply sit down and refuse to "work".

A strike would be detrimental to both sides of this little spat. If the scientists don't work, their chances of living/getting home go down. That would be stupid, and I hope they're smarter than that.

nx01a
April 12th, 2010, 05:52 PM
Oh. My. God. That would be awesome and horrifying at the same time. But I'm not ruling it out. After all, Eli is such a nice, sweet, innocent guy that he'd be the last person we'd suspect in trying to figure out who will be the villain in the end.Wouldn't you have said the same thing about Chloe before Divided. ;)

Sami_
April 12th, 2010, 05:58 PM
I love it how many people call Wray, of all people, untrustworthy, but never doubt Young's trustworthiness, even after all the crimes he's committed. If Young remains in command in some capacity, then Wray should get her share as well.

I may have just forgotten what your talking about so I'll apologise in advance but what are you referring to when you say "all the crimes he's committed." ?

The only one I can think of is leaving Rush on the planet, not to say that isn't bad but you seem to be saying there is other crimes.

Tuvok
April 12th, 2010, 05:58 PM
Wouldn't you have said the same thing about Chloe before Divided. ;)

Young - Eli, is there a reason your zooming around Destiny in a wheelchair and a blue eye drawn on you forehead.

Eli -...no...

Greer- Anybody seen Scott.

Eli- ( Angryily ) You will stop questioning about Scott. You will Obey . Obey ! Obey ! Eli is Superior. Superior!

Zooms down the corridor the Kinos behind him like a dark shadow of death . Their little tinny voices repeating 'Obey!"

Greer- Hey sir, I think we might have a problem..

asdf1239
April 12th, 2010, 06:21 PM
i'm sure the military could bully them back to work if they went on strike

natyanayaki
April 12th, 2010, 06:37 PM
That could work. Until a few weeks later, when a hostile alien race decides to board, and the military simply sit down and refuse to "work".

A strike would be detrimental to both sides of this little spat. If the scientists don't work, their chances of living/getting home go down. That would be stupid, and I hope they're smarter than that.

But should they just let the military order and push them around as has happened so far on this ship? They are equally important to the military, they should be respected enough to have a say in their "destinies." In matters of war etc I agree, the military's word should over-rule other's (unless relating to the ship's energy). But in day to day matters, in terms of scientific decisions, there's no reason that the scientists (and even the civilians) should be prevented from having their voices heard.


"all the crimes he's committed."

The only one I can think of is leaving Rush on the planet, not to say that isn't bad but you seem to be saying there is other crimes.

He impersonated another man so that he could beat up a fellow officer, he slept with his wife while in another man's body and as far as we know did not have the said man's consent, as you said he left Rush on the planet, but he also lied about it to the crew of the Destiny, he had an affair with an officer under his command. Those are just the few I could think of.

pipi
April 12th, 2010, 06:48 PM
I think the strike idea is not applicable with regards to the science team. They do not have any agreement where by they must work for some authority or get paid by the hour, there are no conditions signed. How do you strike against something that doesn't exist? The team practically does whatever they want as long as it doesn't cross paths with anyone else. I'd say pure boredom would be a motivational factor to poke around in an alien spaceship. Maybe the possibility of rescue or finding food for their own self interests. Most of the team didn't have to do anything, they volunteered to help instead of sitting there doing nothing. You don'[t go on strike if you volunteer your services. It doesn't make sense.

natyanayaki
April 12th, 2010, 06:55 PM
I think the strike idea is not applicable with regards to the science team. They do not have any agreement where by they must work for some authority or get paid by the hour, there are no conditions signed. How do you strike against something that doesn't exist? The team practically does whatever they want as long as it doesn't cross paths with anyone else. I'd say pure boredom would be a motivational factor to poke around in an alien spaceship. Maybe the possibility of rescue or finding food for their own self interests. Most of the team didn't have to do anything, they volunteered to help instead of sitting there doing nothing. You don'[t go on strike if you volunteer your services. It doesn't make sense.

But they do want wages of a sort, they want more of a say in what happens to them, they want more control in their day to day lives.

Morganskywalker
April 12th, 2010, 08:14 PM
But should they just let the military order and push them around as has happened so far on this ship? They are equally important to the military, they should be respected enough to have a say in their "destinies." In matters of war etc I agree, the military's word should over-rule other's (unless relating to the ship's energy). But in day to day matters, in terms of scientific decisions, there's no reason that the scientists (and even the civilians) should be prevented from having their voices heard.

I don't necessarily agree with the military, but I think fighting over control at this time is detrimental to everyone, and will only worsen their situation. In an ideal world, I would have the civilians in control of the day-to-day matters aboard the Destiny, while the military focuses on ship safety. Unfortunately, I don't think Young would give up the power, and taking it by force would be costly.

If the scientists really want Young gone, they should just accidentally vent his room into space. Oops!

nx01a
April 12th, 2010, 08:33 PM
The question is also what kind of lives do they have on the ship, anyway? And what exactly are the military controlling about their lives? Being forced to get in shape is a bad thing to help ensure your survival? Or is it solely the Young/Rush incident that [Wray's using to] is getting them angry?

natyanayaki
April 12th, 2010, 08:37 PM
I don't necessarily agree with the military, but I think fighting over control at this time is detrimental to everyone, and will only worsen their situation. In an ideal world, I would have the civilians in control of the day-to-day matters aboard the Destiny, while the military focuses on ship safety. Unfortunately, I don't think Young would give up the power, and taking it by force would be costly.

If the scientists really want Young gone, they should just accidentally vent his room into space. Oops!

That's a good point, and I do agree with that. I think it's largely dependent upon how much time has elapsed (do we have an Earth-based assessment of the time), and what their chances of returning home seem, because if it seems that this is their home, I believe it's in the interest of all to try to have their voices heard, if that's what they want. The Destiny is on autopilot, it's only in emergencies that anyone's expertise is necessary, and I doubt that in the event of an attack, or an emergency that affects all Destiny members, that a strike from any of the factions wouldn't take a "pause" of sorts. I think if the scientists and civilians, or a representative from those factions, had authority over day to day activities, and over their expertise, the two parties wouldn't feel like puppets under a dictatorship that they can't trust. And they do have the right to have a say in their Destiny.

That would be an easy and effective way to deal with Young for sure, but it would be hugely hypocritical, and it would probably cause the military faction to use more force in daily life. It may actually work against them in the long run, just like their coup did, because in their end the ones with the guns won out. The scientists and the civilians should have used their brains, I mean did they really think they could imprison, and bend to their will the individuals with the guns, the individuals trained in combat?

Gollumpus
April 12th, 2010, 08:44 PM
The science team can go suck an egg. What are they doing about ANYTHING? They have to be lead in (practically at gunpoint) to do anything with Rush because he's so scary. These are people who have a doctorate, in cases possibly more. They should have pretty strong egos. They should be working on stuff related to their chosen fields. Other labs should have been explored. It seems like the exploration stopped after the chair was found. Yes, there is the need to check stuff over for safety purposes but have they done that? Apparently not.

It seems like the only work being done by scientists is by Rush, anyone who is forced to work with him studying the chair, the couple of people working in the hydroponics bay and maybe Eli.

Go on strike? Who'd notice they weren't doing anything?

regards,
G.

Coronach
April 12th, 2010, 08:57 PM
The science team can go suck an egg. What are they doing about ANYTHING? They have to be lead in (practically at gunpoint) to do anything with Rush because he's so scary. These are people who have a doctorate, in cases possibly more. They should have pretty strong egos. They should be working on stuff related to their chosen fields. Other labs should have been explored. It seems like the exploration stopped after the chair was found. Yes, there is the need to check stuff over for safety purposes but have they done that? Apparently not.

It seems like the only work being done by scientists is by Rush, anyone who is forced to work with him studying the chair, the couple of people working in the hydroponics bay and maybe Eli.

Go on strike? Who'd notice they weren't doing anything?

regards,
G.

Do you watch the online Kino-sodes? There have been some interesting science-related things that don't really have to do with Rush. I agree, though, that not a lot of on-screen time has really been devoted to explaining what it is that the scientists aboard might be doing.

That said, you could literally make the same argument for the military members. In any given episode, they aren't shown doing anything particularly groundbreaking. Really, what would they be doing each and every day? We could envision them exploring uncharted parts of the ship, which I'm sure they are, but how often (if ever?) has this been shown. In the same way, there are a multitude of things that we could envision the scientists doing that we don't actually see on-screen.

Not saying one is better than the other, but you make it sound like the science team does nothing (save for Rush) and the military is busting their asses each day to pick up the slack. Personally (and as others have said), I think both sides are essential to survival in varying ways.

Random aside: Having doctorates (or multiple ones) really says nothing about your ego. The people I work with on a daily basis (some with PhDs and others in the process of getting them) are as varied as everyday people with regards to ego.

Daro
April 12th, 2010, 09:07 PM
The science team can go suck an egg. What are they doing about ANYTHING? They have to be lead in (practically at gunpoint) to do anything with Rush because he's so scary. These are people who have a doctorate, in cases possibly more. They should have pretty strong egos. They should be working on stuff related to their chosen fields. Other labs should have been explored. It seems like the exploration stopped after the chair was found. Yes, there is the need to check stuff over for safety purposes but have they done that? Apparently not.

It seems like the only work being done by scientists is by Rush, anyone who is forced to work with him studying the chair, the couple of people working in the hydroponics bay and maybe Eli.

Go on strike? Who'd notice they weren't doing anything?




Be fair, that was one episode, and it was the one where Rush was losing his mind from lack of sleep/caffeine/ciggies. Yeah, Young had to hold Volker's hand to get him to go in there. Rush had a mental breakdown minutes after that. He may not be all sunshine and bunny rabbits on a good day, but he certainly wasn't in his right mind in that episode.

Besides, Volker does seem to be kinda useless. That doesn't mean they all are. Franklin worked in the hydroponic lab, Brody is always assisting Eli, Rush, or someone else. Park is also usually depicted at work. When any other scientist is referred to, it's usually added that they were doing something productive. We only have a handful of scientist characters, and other than Volker, all of them seem to be making themselves useful most of the time. Franklin whined most of the time, but he made up for it by sitting in the chair. Problem solved.

The scientists do work. Eli, Rush, and Brody work their butts off when the ship is in a tight spot. They have grown food and medicinal plants, they've worked together with the military on expeditions, etc. And when the dying starts happening, as we saw in "Time" (it counts, even if it didn't actually happen,) they certainly contribute to the survival of their time every bit as much as the military.

Don't project the failures of Volker onto the entire group. What they do may seem a little underwhelming, especially if you aren't counting Eli and Rush, but they take care of the smaller jobs that are getting done, the little things that are absolutely vital for the survival of the people on that ship.

Morganskywalker
April 12th, 2010, 09:27 PM
I think it's largely dependent upon how much time has elapsed (do we have an Earth-based assessment of the time), and what their chances of returning home seem

Exactly. I think the correct course of action changes depending on how long they plan to be aboard the Destiny. If this is still an evacuation (meaning they're actively going home), the military have every right to be charge. After all, they were in charge of Icarus Base, and they're all still members of Icarus Base.

If they decide getting home is more of a *long term* goal, and isn't going to be immediately obtainable, then the Destiny becomes an independent "nation", and the current command structure goes out the window. Everyone should vote on a president, and a new mini-government should be formed. Young would answer to whoever was placed in charge, just as he would on Earth.

Just my opinion. :)

Daro
April 12th, 2010, 09:57 PM
Haha, how can you all be members of a base that doesn't exist anymore? :D

The military wasn't in charge of Icarus base on its own. IOA was also there. I'd need more information to know if it was a joint venture or if it was mainly being funded by just America and maintained as an official air force base.

While I agree with the president thing in theory, the show would have to call it something else and be very clever about it. SGU gets compared to Battlestar Galactica already. It's a group trying to survive on a big ship, and it's a character-based sci-fi drama. That's about it. Adding in a president who tells the military commander what to do most of the time would be tricky.

They want to go home, but of course the show would cease to exist (or at least would change dramatically) if they did. I think everyone on the ship, except Rush, will say the goal is to get home. It becomes more and more long term as survival issues start piling up. Getting everyone to agree on that alone would be dicey.

But if we're going to vote, then I say Chloe for president. It's unfortunate in a way that her father died in the first episode. He would have put a stop to a lot of Rush and Young's nonsense much earlier. But he'd probably have had nonsense all of his own, so *shrug*

escyos
April 12th, 2010, 10:00 PM
then eli figures out how to get back home and all the scientists get fired.....they'd signed contracts to work and had fixed payments so by striking they would be fired.

asdf1239
April 12th, 2010, 10:01 PM
young would also most likely be court martialled

Daro
April 12th, 2010, 10:04 PM
then eli figures out how to get back home and all the scientists get fired.....they'd signed contracts to work and had fixed payments so by striking they would be fired.

You can't fire them if they quit first. I would be willing to bet that everyone but Rush would want to wash their hands of the whole Stargate program. :P

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 11:50 PM
I'm sorry, did I ever state that I trusted Young but just forget about it? I'm talking about Wray and Rush.
When you criticize one side without even mentioning the opposing side, it's an unspoken way of taking sides. If none of those are trustworthy, then who do you suggest should take command of the ship?


I may have just forgotten what your talking about so I'll apologise in advance but what are you referring to when you say "all the crimes he's committed." ?

The only one I can think of is leaving Rush on the planet, not to say that isn't bad but you seem to be saying there is other crimes.
Actual crimes: Rape (Telford), aggravated assault (Telford), attempted murder (Rush).
Maybe crimes: Fraternization with an officer under his command (against military codes, dunno what it's punishable with), impersonating another officer (to commit aggravated assault).

pipi
April 13th, 2010, 02:55 AM
Exactly. I think the correct course of action changes depending on how long they plan to be aboard the Destiny. If this is still an evacuation (meaning they're actively going home), the military have every right to be charge. After all, they were in charge of Icarus Base, and they're all still members of Icarus Base.

If they decide getting home is more of a *long term* goal, and isn't going to be immediately obtainable, then the Destiny becomes an independent "nation", and the current command structure goes out the window. Everyone should vote on a president, and a new mini-government should be formed. Young would answer to whoever was placed in charge, just as he would on Earth.

Just my opinion. :)

I agree with the time factor. I'd say at least 12 months should past until Stargate Command cuts them loose, or maybe they lose the stones.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 04:06 AM
escyos,


then eli figures out how to get back home and all the scientists get fired.....they'd signed contracts to work and had fixed payments so by striking they would be fired.

I imagine they'd scream "boo-hoo" then count their lucky stars they survived. Further if the IOA or Stargate program is so petty as to fire people for having issues with an unstable commander who stranded on of the leader of the science team in a fit of anger I'd be shocked. You say this as though there are no concerns about Young and his ability to lead this group of people. Quite clearly there are some problems here. The only real weapon the science team has is their technical skill denying that skill to the person with whom they have concerns is a perfectly valid way of asserting their disagreement with Young remaining in sole command

mere earthling
April 13th, 2010, 04:22 AM
Going on strike makes no sense at all. Keeping them busy creates a sense of purpose and will to live. Remembering that there is no tv, internet, etc.... in a dark and dreary environment, what would you do? Seriously, so they sit around and stew for how long? Bored and disgruntled people do stupid things..... When the ship is cruising at least having tasks combats the mind-numbing boredom of being stuck there.

The military tries to stay sane by keeping busy, I for one wouldn't be able to handle having nothing at all to do and be happy to help them.

Scientist complaining: "I don't want to grow food, I want to "read".... leave me alone!"

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 05:16 AM
mere earthling,


Going on strike makes no sense at all. Keeping them busy creates a sense of purpose and will to live. Remembering that there is no tv, internet, etc.... in a dark and dreary environment, what would you do? Seriously, so they sit around and stew for how long? Bored and disgruntled people do stupid things..... When the ship is cruising at least having tasks combats the mind-numbing boredom of being stuck there.

The military tries to stay sane by keeping busy, I for one wouldn't be able to handle having nothing at all to do and be happy to help them.

Scientist complaining: "I don't want to grow food, I want to "read".... leave me alone!"

Yes, if this were merely about working conditions and food I'd agree, that's pretty petty. It's not there are serious concerns about Col. Young's ability to remain detached in emotionally charged situations. Stranding Rush, who is by no means a saint, is a symptom. How else can they have their concerns addressed when the senior NCO was willing to, during an inquiry surrounding a murder investigation, shut it down because it pissed him off? The situation is volitle and the only chip the science team has to play is their technical skill and knowledge.

escyos
April 13th, 2010, 06:43 AM
escyos,



I imagine they'd scream "boo-hoo" then count their lucky stars they survived. Further if the IOA or Stargate program is so petty as to fire people for having issues with an unstable commander who stranded on of the leader of the science team in a fit of anger I'd be shocked. You say this as though there are no concerns about Young and his ability to lead this group of people. Quite clearly there are some problems here. The only real weapon the science team has is their technical skill denying that skill to the person with whom they have concerns is a perfectly valid way of asserting their disagreement with Young remaining in sole command

regardless of Youngs abilities, they MUTINIED, im like 99% sure that in the military if you mutiny you get court marshalled. being scientists they would be fired, possibly fined/ serve jailtime.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 06:51 AM
esycos,

Is it your position that all mutinies are unjustified or unjustifiable?

Jeffala
April 13th, 2010, 08:22 AM
When you criticize one side without even mentioning the opposing side, it's an unspoken way of taking sides. If none of those are trustworthy, then who do you suggest should take command of the ship?

If the article had been about the military staff, I may have mentioned him.

There is no ideal commander on that ship. Rush and Wray are untrustworthy. Young seems to be rapidly destabilizing. I mean, to get offered command of the Destiny adventure and be commander of the Icarus Base, one assumes he had to start out mostly-normal.

blackluster
April 13th, 2010, 04:35 PM
A strike at this point probably isn't viable in terms of the scientists' own survival through correct operation of the ship and because Young is likely to use violence against them. Unfortunately as the situation has unfolded now, neither Young nor any of the military personnel have any interest in their concerns. Official channels don't matter either since O'Neil would back Young even if his decisions would most likely lead to everyone's deaths, in addition to which, after that run in with Telford after the failed rescue plan, O'Neil basically gave Young the green light to do what ever he wants, IOA be damned.

Barring some change of heart from Young which I doubt is coming, they are stuck with military oppression. I wouldn't be surprised if more civilians started succumbing to depression and suicidal tendencies. As it stands, Young thinks he only needs Eli anyway.

nx01a
April 13th, 2010, 04:39 PM
Someone please tell me how they've been oppressed? Exactly? Being forced to run laps and get fit? Eat military 'sweet' potatoes?

blackluster
April 13th, 2010, 04:48 PM
In this case I'd take oppression to be being forced to submit to incompetent leadership with no recourse for justice in instances of clear wrongdoing. Young effectively attempted to murder Rush and he leads the crew acting "like nothing happened" as he so eloquently put it.

nx01a
April 13th, 2010, 05:26 PM
We don't know how much time passed between Justice and Space, but we saw Wray about to give her damning report on Young's then supposed attempted murder of Rush to the IOA without Young stopping her from doing so. The only reason Wray didn't report him is because the stones were off-limits due to the alien connection. I'm assuming that, next episode, she'll go to Earth and tell them everything and we'll see some definitive action taken on who should be in command... despite Jack already saying that it's not a democracy and Young is in charge.

natyanayaki
April 13th, 2010, 06:04 PM
We don't know how much time passed between Justice and Space, but we saw Wray about to give her damning report on Young's then supposed attempted murder of Rush to the IOA without Young stopping her from doing so. The only reason Wray didn't report him is because the stones were off-limits due to the alien connection. I'm assuming that, next episode, she'll go to Earth and tell them everything and we'll see some definitive action taken on who should be in command... despite Jack already saying that it's not a democracy and Young is in charge.

Those statements from Jack are just after they became stranded on the Destiny, and prior to Young's demonstrations of instability. He impersonated Volkner, and then another officer to beat Telford down on Earth, which may have changed Jack's opinion on the Young's ability to command during a stressful situation. And before someone says that Jack would have done the same thing to Telford, I'm not so sure. Jack has been on the verge of initiating a beat down on several occasions, but I don't think he has often (or ever) lost it for personal reasons. When another officers decisions caused lives (especially when the decisions went against recommendations) perhaps, but I think Young's actions would concern Jack. Not just concern for the crew, but for Young's health as well. Considering the scene in which Young collapsed, I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually learn that Young has a brain tumor or aneurysm of some sort, or something else along those lines.

Daro
April 13th, 2010, 06:18 PM
Someone please tell me how they've been oppressed? Exactly? Being forced to run laps and get fit? Eat military 'sweet' potatoes?

Well, here's how.

Young has no regard for their personal privacy. He spies on them all constantly via Eli and the kinos. I would understand him keeping an eye on Rush, but the kino has been shown spying on several characters.

Publicly arguing with Rush all the time. Rush may be infuriating, but by doing what he did, Young made their problems public. Which is why everyone tends to believe that Young did attempt to kill Rush. It also is stupid because it actually makes Rush look like the victim of constant harassment, even when Rush deserves to be yelled at. People don't need to be opressed themselves to see that 'one of their own' is being targeted, and feeling opressed by extension.

And of course, since they believe Rush, then they know that Young tossed a man off the ship. They believe he did so for no better reason than spite. If Young can do that to Rush, he can do it to anyone, as Dr. Caine pointed out.

Also, I point to exhibit A: Greer. Young's bulldog. Greer has pointed his gun in the face of unarmed civilians, he's threatened Wray. His constantly aggressive and very visible demeanor make any feelings of resentment all the worse. I can't blame them. Intimidation is a nasty thing, and a common tactic of those who would seek to make others submissive entirely to them.

Lastly, you have the 'false alarms.' The things that were clearly not opression and yet add to the overall building up of resentment. Spencer's moody outbursts, for example. You had Franklin's constant whining about every tiny little thing. Franklin raised suspicion of the military early on, casting every action they took as nefarious. Honestly, the ship's chances of healing the rift are probably a lot higher now that Franklin is in a coma. Too bad he didn't find the chair earlier.

Also, there will always be some people like him who invent conspiracy theories as to why the Destiny isn't a five star hotel. Some people will never try to be objective, some will never appreciate what the military does for them, they'll just expect them to charge off into danger and possibly get killed.

jelgate
April 13th, 2010, 06:45 PM
Well, here's how.

Young has no regard for their personal privacy. He spies on them all constantly via Eli and the kinos. I would understand him keeping an eye on Rush, but the kino has been shown spying on several characters.

Publicly arguing with Rush all the time. Rush may be infuriating, but by doing what he did, Young made their problems public. Which is why everyone tends to believe that Young did attempt to kill Rush. It also is stupid because it actually makes Rush look like the victim of constant harassment, even when Rush deserves to be yelled at. People don't need to be opressed themselves to see that 'one of their own' is being targeted, and feeling opressed by extension.

And of course, since they believe Rush, then they know that Young tossed a man off the ship. They believe he did so for no better reason than spite. If Young can do that to Rush, he can do it to anyone, as Dr. Caine pointed out.

Also, I point to exhibit A: Greer. Young's bulldog. Greer has pointed his gun in the face of unarmed civilians, he's threatened Wray. His constantly aggressive and very visible demeanor make any feelings of resentment all the worse. I can't blame them. Intimidation is a nasty thing, and a common tactic of those who would seek to make others submissive entirely to them.

Lastly, you have the 'false alarms.' The things that were clearly not opression and yet add to the overall building up of resentment. Spencer's moody outbursts, for example. You had Franklin's constant whining about every tiny little thing. Franklin raised suspicion of the military early on, casting every action they took as nefarious. Honestly, the ship's chances of healing the rift are probably a lot higher now that Franklin is in a coma. Too bad he didn't find the chair earlier.

Also, there will always be some people like him who invent conspiracy theories as to why the Destiny isn't a five star hotel. Some people will never try to be objective, some will never appreciate what the military does for them, they'll just expect them to charge off into danger and possibly get killed.

I would like to point out the kinos are like security cameras and almost any base has security cameras even in the personal quarters.

Daro
April 13th, 2010, 06:54 PM
A good point. But remember, the civilians aren't used to being subject to security cameras in every aspect of their daily lives. When they were off duty from the base, they didn't feel like they were being watched. Constantly being under scrutiny would unnerve most of us, and most of us would view it as an invasion of privacy and resent it.

jelgate
April 13th, 2010, 06:55 PM
A good point. But remember, the civilians aren't used to being subject to security cameras in every aspect of their daily lives. When they were off duty from the base, they didn't feel like they were being watched. Constantly being under scrutiny would unnerve most of us, and most of us would view it as an invasion of privacy and resent it.

Tough for them. It still doesn't stop that haveing cameras of the on/off duty base is standard.

Daro
April 13th, 2010, 06:59 PM
*shrug* A security camera doesn't follow you around. Security cameras are focused mainly in areas of importance, such as the gate room. Whether or not you agree that the kinos are being used as a tool of opression, I'd still argue that their presence has led to feelings that "big brother is watching."

jelgate
April 13th, 2010, 07:03 PM
*shrug* A security camera doesn't follow you around. Security cameras are focused mainly in areas of importance, such as the gate room. Whether or not you agree that the kinos are being used as a tool of opression, I'd still argue that their presence has led to feelings that "big brother is watching."
Actually from SG1 we know security cameras are placed in all rooms used not just the important ones. So I don't think a mobile security camera vs one mointoring each room matters

natyanayaki
April 13th, 2010, 07:09 PM
Tough for them. It still doesn't stop that haveing cameras of the on/off duty base is standard.

Perhaps, but why not listen to and then address/explain some of their concerns? Maybe Young does have the right to command the way he does, maybe he is as stable and clear-headed as he thinks (though so far that doesn't seem to be the case), maybe Young does feel justified in all his action, then why not open up dialogue for the civilians who are unused to these situations. There are only 80 people aboard the ship, that's nearly the size of a small town (some here in the US are as small as 100, I even remember some 92s), why not have a meeting of some sort, open dialogue, and address some of these concerns. Young's been ignoring the concerns, the whispers he's been hearing, as if they are unimportant, unfortunately by doing so, he's allowed resentment to fester, and it seems like he "just doesn't want to deal" and he hoped that the problem would just go away. It doesn't work that way, and it's partially why he seems so incompetent (at least to me). He shouldn't expect individuals without military training, individuals who all (as far as we know) come from largely democratic societies to be OK with military methods. It's one thing for Young to order a subordinate soldier and expect his demands to be met without question, they are trained to do just that, but the scientists and civilians are not trained to just take orders. Scientists are supposed to be naturally suspicious, and many civilians in democratic societies often doubt the intentions of individuals who for all intents and purposes have absolute power.


Actually from SG1 we know security cameras are placed in all rooms used not just the important ones. So I don't think a mobile security camera vs one mointoring each room matters

But would the SGC and Icarus base (a base on a planet) have the exact same security measures. I though that there was a larger number of military and non-military personnel on Icarus.

jelgate
April 13th, 2010, 07:17 PM
Perhaps, but why not listen to and then address/explain some of their concerns? Maybe Young does have the right to command the way he does, maybe he is as stable and clear-headed as he thinks (though so far that doesn't seem to be the case), maybe Young does feel justified in all his action, then why not open up dialogue for the civilians who are unused to these situations. There are only 80 people aboard the ship, that's nearly the size of a small town (some here in the US are as small as 100, I even remember some 92s), why not have a meeting of some sort, open dialogue, and address some of these concerns. Young's been ignoring the concerns, the whispers he's been hearing, as if they are unimportant, unfortunately by doing so, he's allowed resentment to fester, and it seems like he "just doesn't want to deal" and he hoped that the problem would just go away. It doesn't work that way, and it's partially why he seems so incompetent (at least to me). He shouldn't expect individuals without military training, individuals who all (as far as we know) come from largely democratic societies to be OK with military methods. It's one thing for Young to order a subordinate soldier and expect his demands to be met without question, they are trained to do just that, but the scientists and civilians are not trained to just take orders. Scientists are supposed to be naturally suspicious, and many civilians in democratic societies often doubt the intentions of individuals who for all intents and purposes have absolute power.

Um we have seen instances of Young having meetings with the crew about ship issues. The best example in Darkness. As for ordering civilians its no different in business when an employer orders an employee to do something.



But would the SGC and Icarus base (a base on a planet) have the exact same security measures. I though that there was a larger number of military and non-military personnel on Icarus.
Probably. The military is in charge of security in both instances

nx01a
April 13th, 2010, 07:24 PM
So... the civilians feel terribly uneasy that Young will just discard them as he did to Rush should they become troublesome? Well, sadly, if any of them get to be like Rush in Justice, then they deserve to get left behind. OK. Not left behind, but confined to quarters or permanently put on stones transfer duty.
They want a say in how the ship is defended? They ALL want a say in everything?
Young isn't stopping anyone from going to Earth and complaining about him, and he seems like he'd listen to whatever Jack orders him to do. I can understand why they're nervous about Young's leadership but he's the best person [best is highly loosely used] to lead them at the moment.
Young needs to find a way to actually listen to Rush and Wray's concerns while making those lazy civilians go through more boot camp!

natyanayaki
April 13th, 2010, 07:24 PM
Um we have seen instances of Young having meetings with the crew about ship issues. The best example in Darkness. As for ordering civilians its no different in business when an employer orders an employee to do something.

We've seen meetings at the start of the season, but I don't recall Young answering questions. I'd have to re-watch, but wasn't Young just announcing a list of what he thought they should know, what he thought was necessary information? And I don't think it's exactly like an employer ordering and employee. Employees in the corporate world are often told why, are allowed to ask why, and expect answers, it's not done so in the military (and rightfully so esp. in dire situations); and again, I don't recall Young actually addressing specific concerns.



Probably. The military is in charge of security in both instances

I assumed that there would be more recreational facilities/areas at Icarus, and that security would be slightly different.

jelgate
April 13th, 2010, 07:30 PM
We've seen meetings at the start of the season, but I don't recall Young answering questions. I'd have to re-watch, but wasn't Young just announcing a list of what he thought they should know, what he thought was necessary information? And I don't think it's exactly like an employer ordering and employee. Employees in the corporate world are often told why, are allowed to ask why, and expect answers, it's not done so in the military (and rightfully so esp. in dire situations); and again, I don't recall Young actually addressing specific concerns.
Thier was open discussion. Clearly if a person had a concern they could raise. I'm sure many soldiers with disagree with the statement about asking the intent about the orders. Information is the difference between life and death in the field


I assumed that there would be more recreational facilities/areas at Icarus, and that security would be slightly different.
Why? Crime and problems can happen anywhere on a base

natyanayaki
April 13th, 2010, 07:54 PM
I'm sure many soldiers with disagree with the statement about asking the intent about the orders. Information is the difference between life and death in the field

I already stated that I understand and agree with the way things are done in the military, but this isn't about the soldier's opinion, and how their coping with the way things are done. It's about how the non-military personnel are coping with way things are done in the military, they're not used to it, Young shouldn't expect them to just follow his word, if he's not going to adjust his actions based on what they are used to. When their under attack, or when they're in an urgent situation, I agree information can wait, but they're not constantly in these types of situations.


Why? Crime and problems can happen anywhere on a base

I don't think the people who worked at the SGC were needed to live there, the people at Icarus were probably there constantly for weeks, or maybe days at a time. It's a bigger facility, harder to get "home," seems to have a larger civilian presence, it just seems like things would be less rigid.

Pharaoh Atem
April 13th, 2010, 08:05 PM
Should the science team go on strike and that wouldn't accomplish anything. there's still eil and you know darn well rush won't take part.

jelgate
April 13th, 2010, 09:55 PM
I already stated that I understand and agree with the way things are done in the military, but this isn't about the soldier's opinion, and how their coping with the way things are done. It's about how the non-military personnel are coping with way things are done in the military, they're not used to it, Young shouldn't expect them to just follow his word, if he's not going to adjust his actions based on what they are used to. When their under attack, or when they're in an urgent situation, I agree information can wait, but they're not constantly in these types of situations.

Well that is the sacrifice you pay to get used to it when you join the military's payroll.



I don't think the people who worked at the SGC were needed to live there, the people at Icarus were probably there constantly for weeks, or maybe days at a time. It's a bigger facility, harder to get "home," seems to have a larger civilian presence, it just seems like things would be less rigid.
Yes they were. The personel did have their own quarters on SGC in addition to their home around Colorado Springs. You would still want cameras all over the base regardless of the civilian size in case some crime erupted. Their is your evidence. Businesses do it all the time

Lahela
April 13th, 2010, 10:46 PM
Actually from SG1 we know security cameras are placed in all rooms used not just the important ones. So I don't think a mobile security camera vs one mointoring each room matters

But the security cameras at the SGC were monitored by security personnel looking for problems. Young is using the kinos to eavesdrop on the private conversations of everyone on the ship - can you imagine Hammond doing that? There's a big difference, IMO.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 14th, 2010, 03:58 AM
PA,


and that wouldn't accomplish anything. there's still eil and you know darn well rush won't take part.

It depends on the stakes and the events leading up to the strike. Eli is becoming much less enchanted with all side in this power struggle. I can see him sitting on his hands out of pure frustration.

pipi
April 14th, 2010, 05:07 AM
Eli is becoming much less enchanted with all side in this power struggle. I can see him sitting on his hands out of pure frustration.

I'm waiting for him to have a mental breakdown. Too much stress with no stress relief.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 14th, 2010, 05:44 AM
pipi,


I'm waiting for him to have a mental breakdown. Too much stress with no stress relief.

It wouldn't shock me at all for Eli to have a breakdown. Young is laying an awful lot at his feet expecting him to step up without help and, after the events in "Divided", a great deal of antagonism from the rest of the science team who seemed to be united behind Rush.

blackluster
April 14th, 2010, 06:22 AM
But the security cameras at the SGC were monitored by security personnel looking for problems. Young is using the kinos to eavesdrop on the private conversations of everyone on the ship - can you imagine Hammond doing that? There's a big difference, IMO.Precisely. Those kinos are not monitoring people for there protection, but rather to service Young's paranoia. This kind of surveillance is a feature of tyrannical regimes.


It wouldn't shock me at all for Eli to have a breakdown. Young is laying an awful lot at his feet expecting him to step up without help and, after the events in "Divided", a great deal of antagonism from the rest of the science team who seemed to be united behind Rush.I suspect that Eli will continue to support Young regardless of what Young does, since if what he did to Rush doesn't cross a line it makes me wonder if there even is one. In some ways though, I wonder if his loyalty to Young is because he is an extension of the military and government. After all, it's the U.S military/government that is footing the bill for his mother's care, not Rush. He perhaps has a subconscious fear that "stepping out of line" on Destiny will have repercussions back home.

beafly
April 14th, 2010, 06:29 AM
The mutiny failed. That's quite clear. However, the science team in choosing to attempt to take control missed a golden opportunity to assert their real ability to control their circumstances. Simply sit down and refuse to work. What's Col. Young going to do shoot people? He can't, if he does he loses valuable necessary members of the team on Destiny.

I support shared authority between the military and civilians on board. I think a strike would work. Anyone else agree. Should Young be willing to shoot people to end a strike?

I asked in another thread, because I'm genuinely confused and nobody seems to know.

What is the root interest of Joe Scientist? Why would Joe Scientist strike? What is the ideal outcome in Joe Scientist's mind?

He's got food and water for the time being. Probably a ton of free time. He's being encouraged to use his skills to better their predicament.

Please exclude Rush and Wray from the answer. The show explores their motivations pretty well I think. What I'm looking for, is what is it that makes Joe Scientist wiling to go along or support Rush or Wray in a coup, strike or other sort of power grab?

What does Joe want?

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 14th, 2010, 06:48 AM
Beafly,

I think "Joe Scientist" is worried about Col. Young's stability and impluse control issues. They want Young to share authority because they fear they may be the next guy to et left behind because they pissed off Col. Young. Remember most don't know about Rush's attempt to frame Young.

jelgate
April 14th, 2010, 06:58 AM
But the security cameras at the SGC were monitored by security personnel looking for problems. Young is using the kinos to eavesdrop on the private conversations of everyone on the ship - can you imagine Hammond doing that? There's a big difference, IMO.

Irrelvent. Its not what they are being used for but how the the civilians react to them. It should be no different then places that have security cameras monitor different areas of said base. And just for the record security cameras's record people's personal conversation as well.

beafly
April 14th, 2010, 07:07 AM
Beafly,

I think "Joe Scientist" is worried about Col. Young's stability and impluse control issues. They want Young to share authority because they fear they may be the next guy to et left behind because they pissed off Col. Young. Remember most don't know about Rush's attempt to frame Young.

I think that WE are worried about Young's stability. But we have a far larger picture. We're aware of the issues with Telford. We're aware of the actual happenings on the desert planet. I don't think that Joe Scientist knows any of that at this point.

Has Joe Scientist been treated fairly by Col Young's leadership thus far?

blackluster
April 14th, 2010, 08:30 AM
Irrelvent. Its not what they are being used for but how the the civilians react to them.The reaction is being caused by what the kino's are used for. The fact that Young makes no attempt to deny it is what makes it worse. He is making a distinction in his actions that he doesn't trust any of them. Coupled with what he did to Rush, it makes for a bad combination.


I think that WE are worried about Young's stability. But we have a far larger picture. We're aware of the issues with Telford. We're aware of the actual happenings on the desert planet. I don't think that Joe Scientist knows any of that at this point.

Has Joe Scientist been treated fairly by Col Young's leadership thus far? The scientists know that Young didn't like Rush. They also know that after a harrowing trial where Young is forced to relinquish command, Rush mysteriously dies in a rockslide. The scientists also know that had it not been for Rush, in several instances they would have died through decisions Young made without consulting Rush. They also know that during one of the more critical ordeals in the failed rescue attempt, Young was no where to be found. They also know that Young was willing to roll the dice with all of their lives for the sake of one soldier, but then promptly attempts to destroy a ship with a civilians on it (Rush and Chloe) in the name of the greater good. Inquiring minds are smart enough to connect the dots.

Lahela
April 14th, 2010, 09:54 AM
Irrelvent. Its not what they are being used for but how the the civilians react to them. It should be no different then places that have security cameras monitor different areas of said base. And just for the record security cameras's record people's personal conversation as well.

Of course it's not irrelevant! On a base, the security cameras are fixed to the walls in set positions, they don't follow you into the shower or sneak up when you are having a private chat, and they are monitored by security personnel trained to look for signs of actual trouble, not to eavesdrop for personal gain. It's an enormous difference.

jelgate
April 14th, 2010, 10:31 AM
Of course it's not irrelevant! On a base, the security cameras are fixed to the walls in set positions, they don't follow you into the shower or sneak up when you are having a private chat, and they are monitored by security personnel trained to look for signs of actual trouble, not to eavesdrop for personal gain. It's an enormous difference.

And you think security cameras have never been used to spy on people before?

Lahela
April 14th, 2010, 11:13 AM
And you think security cameras have never been used to spy on people before?

No, I'm not that daft :p But that doesn't make it acceptable, let alone right.

jelgate
April 14th, 2010, 11:15 AM
No, I'm not that daft :p But that doesn't make it acceptable, let alone right.
Since when has SGU been about people being right? I can't think of a character always doing the right thing. Except maybe TJ

Lahela
April 14th, 2010, 11:44 AM
Since when has SGU been about people being right? I can't think of a character always doing the right thing. Except maybe TJ

Are we dancing again?

jelgate
April 14th, 2010, 12:03 PM
Are we dancing again?

Depends on I ever understand your metaphor

Lahela
April 14th, 2010, 10:53 PM
Depends on I ever understand your metaphor

Going around in circles... :p

Daro
April 14th, 2010, 11:08 PM
Wait, isn't the argument over which side is right and which one is wrong the issue here? People should expect their rights to be violated? If so, then commanders should start to expect people to get a bit peeved over that.

jelgate
April 15th, 2010, 05:53 AM
Going around in circles... :p

I suppose you can use that but something being right doesn't seem to be a good counterarguement. So much technology created for the best of intentions is used by less then good people

Lahela
April 15th, 2010, 12:43 PM
I suppose you can use that but something being right doesn't seem to be a good counterarguement. So much technology created for the best of intentions is used by less then good people

Lots of people owned slaves, lots of people have joined in acts of genocide, lots of people have oppressed women, homosexuals, followers of certain religions and people of colour - that doesn't make it right, just a widespread wrong. Of course I'm not comparing the gravity of Kino spying to those much bigger issues, but it's these "small" rights that people should stand up for because, as history has shown us countless times, losing your seemingly "small" rights is just a step on the road to a very ugly society.

jelgate
April 15th, 2010, 12:51 PM
Lots of people owned slaves, lots of people have joined in acts of genocide, lots of people have oppressed women, homosexuals, followers of certain religions and people of colour - that doesn't make it right, just a widespread wrong. Of course I'm not comparing the gravity of Kino spying to those much bigger issues, but it's these "small" rights that people should stand up for because, as history has shown us countless times, losing your seemingly "small" rights is just a step on the road to a very ugly society.
I'd hardly call using the KINO to monitor people a lose of rights. As said before a lot of non residental establshments have security cameras to monitor people and places. Even housing areas. Its a matter of looking for suspicious actvity

Lahela
April 15th, 2010, 12:58 PM
I'd hardly call using the KINO to monitor people a lose of rights. As said before a lot of non residental establshments have security cameras to monitor people and places. Even housing areas. Its a matter of looking for suspicious actvity

Which Young isn't doing! He's looking to see who is unhappy with his command (people are actually allowed to be unhappy with whatever command they find themselves under), he's looking to see what people are working on (he assumes people lie or keep secrets so instead of attempting to engage in meaningful dialogue and mend bridges, he stoops to spying) and TPTB only know what else. He's not spying in some sort of twistedly legitimate way, he violating people's right to privacy and respect.

jelgate
April 15th, 2010, 01:08 PM
Which Young isn't doing! He's looking to see who is unhappy with his command (people are actually allowed to be unhappy with whatever command they find themselves under), he's looking to see what people are working on (he assumes people lie or keep secrets so instead of attempting to engage in meaningful dialogue and mend bridges, he stoops to spying) and TPTB only know what else. He's not spying in some sort of twistedly legitimate way, he violating people's right to privacy and respect.It starts with unhappiness and then before you know it people are revolting. Authories spy on people all the time

nx01a
April 15th, 2010, 01:41 PM
Jel... With security cameras, you can usually tell they're there. They're not hidden. Most places use security cameras as a deterrent to crime first, and for evidence about a crime second. Young is out and out spying on the crew... even though I admit he does have good reason to.
And yes, authorities do spy on people... with authorization. :D I'm not saying that Young should ask Jack if he can spy on the crew, but... *sigh* It's a morally slippery slope.

Jeffala
April 15th, 2010, 01:49 PM
Seems justifiable to me.

Complaint leads to dissent. Dissent leads to rebellion and, as Star Wars has taught us, rebellion leads to clones and it's the clones you have to worry about. The real bad guys are powerless until you give them an army.





(Yes, this was meant to be completely nonsensical.)

Gollumpus
April 15th, 2010, 01:50 PM
Can I get some clarification here as to what the civilians want? About the only thing I'm seeing here or on other threads is: 1.) no more guns being pointed in our faces!; 2.) no more Young telling me what to do; 3.) we want civilian rule (supposedly Wray as far as Wray is concerned); 4.) freedom to do stuff without military interference (Rush would get behind this); (something else I've missed?).

1.) Well, I wouldn't care for guns being pointed at me. Even if it was unintended a round coming out of the chamber would ruin my day. Assuming a civilian "government", at some point they might need to call out the military who would point guns in people's faces. Is this better because it is being done under the authority of a civilian government? On a philosophical level perhaps, in reality no.

2.) I get the feeling that this herd of cats don't want anyone telling them what to do. The only exceptions would be if there is some sort of an emergency and there is imminent danger of getting killed. They are more than happy to be herded in such a case. As long as there is no danger and everything is good they are all about freedom of movement and action.

3.) civilian rule, TO DO WHAT? Ration supplies? Young's done that. Make sure no one was hoarding any food? Young's done that as well. What are they thinking they'll be able to do that will make their lives better? I haven't seen/heard anything outside of (imho) the rather silly comment in this case about civilian rule over the military. (I am in agreement with this btw, the military of a NATION should be answerable to the other citizens of the state to which they belong). What are the goals? To be able to tell Young and the military what to do? Fine, that power would be placed in the hands of the elected civilian leader(s), who would then be able to tell Young to enforce what the elected civilian leader(s) has told the rest of the population to do. So much better...

4.) freedom to explore the ship and do whatever the heck we want. Well, if we follow Rush's way of thinking on this, the crew would be slowly be winnowed down (or maybe quickly depending on progress). How many people would Rush have already gotten thrown into that chair "for the greater good". How can anyone on that ship trust him on anything?

So, could someone give me some realistic goals of this little revolution? I'm not against some sort of civilian input, I'm just not sure what they're going to do and how things are going to be appreciably better than they are under Young.

regards,
G.

jelgate
April 15th, 2010, 01:53 PM
Jel... With security cameras, you can usually tell they're there. They're not hidden. Most places use security cameras as a deterrent to crime first, and for evidence about a crime second. Young is out and out spying on the crew... even though I admit he does have good reason to.
And yes, authorities do spy on people... with authorization. :D I'm not saying that Young should ask Jack if he can spy on the crew, but... *sigh* It's a morally slippery slope.And KInos aren't exactly hidden. People can spot them as well like normal cameras

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 15th, 2010, 03:10 PM
Jelgate,

Their easily spotted when they are hidden in the airducts?

jelgate
April 15th, 2010, 03:14 PM
Jelgate,

Their easily spotted when they are hidden in the airducts?
That neglates Lahelas whole point of them being mobile and following people around. Then we get back to they are simple security cameras like you see at almost any business

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 15th, 2010, 03:16 PM
jelgate,


That neglates Lahelas whole point of them being mobile and following people around. Then we get back to they are simple security cameras like you see at almost any business

The nice thing about the kinos, when used for surivlence, is they can be hidden or open and obvious. We've seen them used in both manners.

jelgate
April 15th, 2010, 03:19 PM
jelgate,



The nice thing about the kinos, when used for surivlence, is they can be hidden or open and obvious. We've seen them used in both manners.
Just like normal security cameras which are perfectly legal.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 15th, 2010, 03:25 PM
Jelgate,


Just like normal security cameras which are perfectly legal.

Can you legally put a "security camera" in a bathroom? What about someone's private quarters? These people aren't prisoners, at least they weren't prisoners.

jelgate
April 15th, 2010, 03:27 PM
Jelgate,



Can you legally put a "security camera" in a bathroom? What about someone's private quarters? These people aren't prisoners, at least they weren't prisoners.

The SGC did it.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 15th, 2010, 03:28 PM
Jelgate,


The SGC did it.

In what circumstances?

jelgate
April 15th, 2010, 04:17 PM
Jelgate,



In what circumstances?
It was standard SGC procedure

nx01a
April 15th, 2010, 04:47 PM
Normal security surveillance is having the Kinos at every corner and in every room [if there were that many] where people can see them and know they're there. Spying is having them in conduits or behind plants unbeknownst to anyone but those observing.
And what if Eli had one hidden in the air ducts in the shower room? Looking for 'alien implant scars'? Would that be different?

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 15th, 2010, 05:22 PM
Are y'all really cool with 24 hour all access survealence? Do you not believe is some right of privacy?

jelgate
April 15th, 2010, 05:29 PM
Are y'all really cool with 24 hour all access survealence? Do you not believe is some right of privacy?

I accpeat the freedoms we are entitiled too are different when in a military establishment

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 15th, 2010, 05:44 PM
Jelgate,

The Destiny isn't a "military establishment". It's a spaceship a very long way from Earth that has a complement of US military personel and refugees from a US Military base. As such I don't think it is unreasonable to desire a modicum of privacy.

jelgate
April 15th, 2010, 05:53 PM
Jelgate,

The Destiny isn't a "military establishment". It's a spaceship a very long way from Earth that has a complement of US military personel and refugees from a US Military base. As such I don't think it is unreasonable to desire a modicum of privacy.
That by its definition makes the security more important because of the danger of the Destiny. And its definatly a military base since the military remains in charge. The civilians agreed to this when they started working with the Air Force when they signed their agreement

Trinary
April 15th, 2010, 06:06 PM
I think its successful. Young had too much power as a self serving leader. Even physically, it seem failed, the idea of having absolute power over other people life and priorities will changed Young's future decisions to less hostile.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 15th, 2010, 06:08 PM
Jelgate,

So, if the Military were to violate the terms of their contract it would be in breach and thus no loner enforceable, correct?

jelgate
April 15th, 2010, 06:11 PM
Jelgate,

So, if the Military were to violate the terms of their contract it would be in breach and thus no loner enforceable, correct?

Um no the military didn't sign a contract. The Civilians did when they agreed to work for the military and follow thier rules.

(Wow this has gone way off-topic(

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 15th, 2010, 06:17 PM
Jelgate,

The US Military signed a contract with the civilians wherein they agreed to provide them with certain materials for a definite period of time. In exchange the civilians agreed to provide services to the military and abide by military procedures, right?

Pharaoh Atem
April 15th, 2010, 06:20 PM
PA,



It depends on the stakes and the events leading up to the strike. Eli is becoming much less enchanted with all side in this power struggle. I can see him sitting on his hands out of pure frustration.

i do see eli getting fed up with the entire situation on the ship.

jelgate
April 15th, 2010, 06:29 PM
Jelgate,

The US Military signed a contract with the civilians wherein they agreed to provide them with certain materials for a definite period of time. In exchange the civilians agreed to provide services to the military and abide by military procedures, right?
Its the other way around. Civilians sign a contract with the military where they agree to work for them

nx01a
April 15th, 2010, 06:37 PM
(Wow this has gone way off-topic(If the scientists wanted to strike for anything, it should be more privacy. ;)

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 15th, 2010, 06:51 PM
Jelgate,

Are you saying it's impossible for the Military to breach their contract? Contracts involve mutual obligations.

garhkal
April 15th, 2010, 07:17 PM
I may have just forgotten what your talking about so I'll apologise in advance but what are you referring to when you say "all the crimes he's committed." ?

The only one I can think of is leaving Rush on the planet, not to say that isn't bad but you seem to be saying there is other crimes.

1) taking over another body to spy on wife
2) taking over another body without that person's knowledge to beat a fellow officer up
3) ignoring superior's order that you are no longer in command

Those are 3 i can think of right off the bat.


but he also lied about it to the crew of the Destiny, he had an affair with an officer under his command. Those are just the few I could think of.

Forgot about those 2.
And technically since he and his wife are NOT divorced, that affair also violated the adultery article.


Fraternization with an officer under his command (against military codes, dunno what it's punishable with)

Dishonerable discharge, forced retirement, reduction of rate (if enlisted) or punative letter (which prohibits further advancement in rank for officers).


Young has no regard for their personal privacy. He spies on them all constantly via Eli and the kinos. I would understand him keeping an eye on Rush, but the kino has been shown spying on several characters.

That is a BIGGIE. First sign of oppression is constant spying on everyone.


I would like to point out the kinos are like security cameras and almost any base has security cameras even in the personal quarters.

BS! As a military member, i can put that claim to the garbage bin. IN NO BASE< not even on ships are there cameras in personal quarters. Maybe out side someone's house or in the BX/Commasarry, but they are there for crime stopping/fighting. WITH YOUR KNOWLEDGE. NOT for spying on you without your knowledge. HUGE difference.


Tough for them. It still doesn't stop that haveing cameras of the on/off duty base is standard.

And again, cameras that we DO have around a base are there for 2 reasons. SECURITY and CRIME. NEITHER of those is what young is doing.
ALSO, the civilians on a base would know that the cameras are there AND agree to their use. And while i figure they would know of their use, i doubt they ahve agreed to it (or even been given the chance to).


But would the SGC and Icarus base (a base on a planet) have the exact same security measures. I though that there was a larger number of military and non-military personnel on Icarus.


And in many SG1 eps where they had to go BACK to a security cameras taped stuff (or even live feeds), it never showed the view from say, in an air duct into someones room.


Well that is the sacrifice you pay to get used to it when you join the military's payroll.


Again wrong. Govt contractors while technically under the mil payroll (their contract is paid for from the mil budget) are not under the mil structure for orders etc, unless their contract says so. AS we have seen already most go by it as it is what is there. BUT they also have the capacity to leave at any time. They do not on Destiny.


But the security cameras at the SGC were monitored by security personnel looking for problems. Young is using the kinos to eavesdrop on the private conversations of everyone on the ship - can you imagine Hammond doing that? There's a big difference, IMO.

Plus the ones in the SGC were in Common/open areas, not in private quarters.


It starts with unhappiness and then before you know it people are revolting. Authories spy on people all the time

And most of those are oppressive regimes.


The nice thing about the kinos, when used for surivlence, is they can be hidden or open and obvious. We've seen them used in both manners. Just like normal security cameras which are perfectly legal.

And pray tell where are the hidden ones at the SGC or on a mil base? Covered maybe to look unobtrusive (like in most stores), but even in high profile top secret areas they are IN THE OPEN, not hidden.


The SGC did it.

When? What ep? To whom?


That by its definition makes the security more important because of the danger of the Destiny.

How so? Just cause they at times come under danger from outside sources does NOT make the ship a danger to everyone at all times.


Um no the military didn't sign a contract. The Civilians did when they agreed to work for the military and follow thier rules.

BUT as part of the contract you sign when you get employed, you agree to X while the mil agrees to Y. So if they violate Y, making THEM in breach of the contract, does that therefore void their authority? If not then what does?
I know when we sign up, we agree that SOME of our personal freedoms will be infringed up on, such as Email (security and protection against viruses), in not a single one, have i seen or heard of 'i agree to have cameras in my personal quarters, hidden from me at any time to eaves drop on me at any time'.

beafly
April 16th, 2010, 06:55 AM
As far as I know, we've been given no indication as to whether the civilians aboard are gov't employees or contractors. Save Eli, I'm fairly confident that he was brought on by contract.

That bit of information is pretty key to the discussion you're headed down as it dramatically impacts the relationship and their expectation of privacy while working for the Military.