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FallenAngelII
April 11th, 2010, 11:38 PM
What is it with people? Both factions here on Gateworld seem to think that only "their" side deserves to command the ship. It's All Wrush vs. Young, all the time.

Am I the only one advocating compromise?

Undeniable facts:
* Despite Young many crimes and flaws, he is still, according to the show and characters at least, a brilliant strategist, military commander and soldier. As such, he is still the person most fit to run the military operations on-board the ship.
* Despite Eli's and Young's best efforts and Rush's Machiavellian tendencies, Rush remains the ship's foremost expert on Ancient technology, technology in general and just science in general. Eli will need quite some time, maybe years, before he catches up.
* We don't know much about Wray, but we know that the civilians trust her and look up to her, that they obey and listen to her, that they have faith in her judgment.
* Power should be shared. One ruler is a dictatorship.

So... why not put it up to a general election? Or at least make the suggestion and then have the general populus vote on it.

The Destiny should be ruled by committee. What committee? Rush - Wray - Young - maybe more people if needed. Rush would get the science department, seeing as that's what he does best. Young would get the military department, seeing as that's what he does best and Wray gets the rest (the "civilian" part, minus the science).

This way, the power is shared, so it is no longer a dictatorship. Any major decision will have to be brought up to the other members before it is carried out and a member's major decision can be vetoed if a majority of the rest of the committee votes them down. This prevents any of the members of the committee to rule their department like a dictator. By splitting up the power and responsibilities, it will make the running of the ship more efficient.

Young will have more time for rest and recreation, making him less stressed. He will also have more time to plan and run the military operations of the ship, thus making it more efficient and, well, well-planned. Rush, well, Rush finally gets to run the science department, but still under the supervision of the other members of the committee. The civilians trust Wray. Therefore, the civilians would no longer have any reason to fear or loathe the military if Wray got some of the cake. She'll get everything that isn't military or scientific. She can help delegate tasks in the mess, the general maintenance of the ship, etc.

By doing this, it will help address the tension that has arisen. The civilians will be appeased, their respective candidates for command both get in on it and the military is confined to what they do best: military operations. The civilians would no longer have any reason to hate the military because they only hate the military at the moment because of Young's actions in general and the fact that the military runs everything in particular.

Shared power makes for less chance of corruption, overwork and stress. So why, not, people? Why not simply try to make the best of the situation, even after "Divided", and share the power?

Sami_
April 12th, 2010, 12:09 AM
Young left Rush to die on a planet
Rush tried to frame Young for murder
Wray most likely knew Young was framed and helped organise a mutiny.

I don't think any of them are particularly fit to run anything on Destiny.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 12:11 AM
Young left Rush to die on a planet
Rush tried to frame Young for murder
Wray most likely knew Young was framed and helped organise a mutiny.

I don't think any of them are particularly fit to run anything on Destiny.
Not alone. But together, they are, unfortunately, current the most fit for the job. Because who else can you see running the ship?

Lord Zedd
April 12th, 2010, 12:14 AM
Not alone. But together, they are, unfortunately, current the most fit for the job. Because who else can you see running the ship?
Chloe :p ... sorry I just had too say it!

asdf1239
April 12th, 2010, 12:23 AM
"we're taking this ship" - todd

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 12:28 AM
Chloe :p ... sorry I just had too say it!
"Oh hey, a black hole. I think we should walk steer the ship towards it!"

escyos
April 12th, 2010, 12:50 AM
Chloe :p ... sorry I just had too say it!

oh its gonna happen, id follow her orders

thekillman
April 12th, 2010, 12:53 AM
i think Young should be in command, but Wray should control the civil aspect. like, the food et all.

Byakuya Truelight
April 12th, 2010, 01:10 AM
I actually suggested something like this in another thread. It is what they SHOULD do, but no one's smart enough to do it. Generally speaking, Wray should be the one making the majority of the decisions. But, if it has something to do with the military personnel or smurfs attack or something, Young should be in charge of that aspect. And they should BOTH be doing whatever Rush says whenever it has something to do with Destiny.None of them COULD lead everyone alone. Rush knows the most about Destiny, but nothing about being a leader or about military tactics. Young knows a lot about military tactics but nothing about Destiny or how to not be an a-hole. Wray is respected by most of the people on the ship so she could lead, but she knows nothing about Destiny or military decision-making. All this fighting to be the 'one true leader' is ridiculous.

So basically I'm saying the same thing that the original creator of this thread is saying, only with some slight differences of my own.

Does anyone agree with all of this though?

escyos
April 12th, 2010, 01:32 AM
I actually suggested something like this in another thread. It is what they SHOULD do, but no one's smart enough to do it. Generally speaking, Wray should be the one making the majority of the decisions. But, if it has something to do with the military personnel or smurfs attack or something, Young should be in charge of that aspect. And they should BOTH be doing whatever Rush says whenever it has something to do with Destiny.None of them COULD lead everyone alone. Rush knows the most about Destiny, but nothing about being a leader or about military tactics. Young knows a lot about military tactics but nothing about Destiny or how to not be an a-hole. Wray is respected by most of the people on the ship so she could lead, but she knows nothing about Destiny or military decision-making. All this fighting to be the 'one true leader' is ridiculous.

So basically I'm saying the same thing that the original creator of this thread is saying, only with some slight differences of my own.

Does anyone agree with all of this though?

i dont, destiny isnt a colony, it was an evac site, they could get home in a week and they would prefer to bicker amongst themselves

Lahela
April 12th, 2010, 01:41 AM
Am I the only one advocating compromise?


Actually, quite a few of us have done just that in various threads. :)
I totally agree that each faction has their obvious leader and those three leaders should work together for the good of all on board.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 01:42 AM
i dont, destiny isnt a colony, it was an evac site, they could get home in a week and they would prefer to bicker amongst themselves
1) It's both a colony and an evacuation site. Also, just because it's an evacuation site doesn't automatically make it a military-only operation.
2) They can't get home in a week. That point has been driven over abundantly clearly.

escyos
April 12th, 2010, 01:47 AM
1) It's both a colony and an evacuation site. Also, just because it's an evacuation site doesn't automatically make it a military-only operation.
2) They can't get home in a week. That point has been driven over abundantly clearly.

its a united states air force evac site, therefore military jurisdiction. they dont knwo that they cant get home soon, their characters on a tv show, only we know that they wont be home anytime soon.

Lahela
April 12th, 2010, 01:54 AM
its a united states air force evac site, therefore military jurisdiction. they dont knwo that they cant get home soon, their characters on a tv show, only we know that they wont be home anytime soon.

Or, it's an IOA-controlled scientific research outpost evac site.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 02:08 AM
its a united states air force evac site, therefore military jurisdiction. they dont knwo that they cant get home soon, their characters on a tv show, only we know that they wont be home anytime soon.
Icarus Base was an IOA operation with the USAF serving as their armed guard.

pipi
April 12th, 2010, 02:14 AM
Just do rock paper scissors! problem solved.

Phenom
April 12th, 2010, 03:05 AM
Wray is a political snake. She is not a leader, simply one of those people who feel that having the loudest opinions means that she is right. All I have seen so far is a panicky person trying to do something that really doesn't come naturally for her because she feels some sort of need to do so due to her IOA position requirements.

I don't feel that a shared leadership approach would work at all. Far too combustible a situation and in these times, autocratic rather than democratic leadership is required the majority of the time. I am interested to find out what exactly what the thought is regarding how a civillian leadership would have handled the decisions made so far.

Until the threat of imminent death/destruction/starvation etc has subsided, the status quo is the best. However if someone as good as Weir was on the civillian side I would probably change my tact....But as it stands Wray is about as handy as Weir's shoes.

thekillman
April 12th, 2010, 03:23 AM
actually if the roles remain strict, there's not gonna be an explosive situation. Young deals with war, Wray with peace.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 12th, 2010, 04:07 AM
escyos,


its a united states air force evac site, therefore military jurisdiction. they dont knwo that they cant get home soon, their characters on a tv show, only we know that they wont be home anytime soon.

Nevertheless, Young is clearly overwhelmed with the stress of command and his personal life. He should share power for no other reason than it will help him avoid mistakes like beating Col. Telford (no matter how personally satisfying that may have been it was a poor choice) and stranding Dr. Rush on alien planets.

beafly
April 12th, 2010, 06:00 AM
The "civilians" involved are all either us government civilians or contractors. They all accepted the military being in charge when they agreed to go to Icarus base. The only person there that has any reasonable expectation of authority is Col Young. Period.

His ability to do the job is a different discussion. But if not him, then the next USAF officer in line.

Steelbox
April 12th, 2010, 06:30 AM
Just do rock paper scissors! problem solved.

Are you sure? Rock beats scissor, scissors beat paper and paper beats rock? No win. Ow i got! Tie, they all share command.

There always have to be an leader. What if the three want different things? Unless, one does not put his fingers on another task, but than it is not shared command. The military need the scientist to operate the shield and weapons of the destiny. If Young wants to shoot, and Rush wants to defend only? They need to have someone to decide and deal with the consequences.

Lord Hurin
April 12th, 2010, 06:39 AM
Am I the only one advocating compromise?


Ummm, no? Have you read through a lot of the other threads? There are many people saying that they need to work together to survive. There are snags all around though, so it's still being debated. The implementation is tricky, even if the idea is by far the most sound.

jelgate
April 12th, 2010, 07:08 AM
I think we all agree that a powe cooperation is a needed measure for success. Its just coming up with how how such a organization is created thats the problem

MattSilver 3k
April 12th, 2010, 07:33 AM
Are you sure? Rock beats scissor, scissors beat paper and paper beats rock? No win. Ow i got! Tie, they all share command.

I believe you are underestimating the power of rock-paper-scissors. While Rush, Young and Wray fight it out, some others step in and combine forces to share power of the Destiny in perfect harmony, locking the three alpha dogs in a room as they continue to wage their battles - Young will always pick rock (Rock bashes brain, he reasons), Wray will always pick paper (Bureaucrat 101: Always Have Paper) and Rush'll pick scissors ("My beard! I need to cut my beard!").

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 07:51 AM
Ummm, no? Have you read through a lot of the other threads? There are many people saying that they need to work together to survive. There are snags all around though, so it's still being debated. The implementation is tricky, even if the idea is by far the most sound.
I've seen many people suggest that they "work together" to survive. But exceedingly few are suggesting anyone share power. It's always "Work together... with X person in command!", never "Work together... by dividing command up!".

Lord Hurin
April 12th, 2010, 07:55 AM
I've seen many people suggest that they "work together" to survive. But exceedingly few are suggesting anyone share power. It's always "Work together... with X person in command!", never "Work together... by dividing command up!".

There's a lot of that, true. As others have pointed out though, several people think they should work together. For my money, I think it'll make more interesting tv from here on to see them trying (and sometimes failing, of course) to work together for the good of all. I'd rather see that than more pointless arguing, fighting and backstabbing.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 08:23 AM
There's a lot of that, true. As others have pointed out though, several people think they should work together. For my money, I think it'll make more interesting tv from here on to see them trying (and sometimes failing, of course) to work together for the good of all. I'd rather see that than more pointless arguing, fighting and backstabbing.
Why are we back to talking about "working together"?! I just established to you that this thread is not about simply "working together", it's about dividing command of the expedition up, i.e. make it so that command does not rest on one single person but on several people.

Lord Hurin
April 12th, 2010, 08:25 AM
Why are we back to talking about "working together"?! I just established to you that this thread is not about simply "working together", it's about dividing command of the expedition up, i.e. make it so that command does not rest on one single person but on several people.

So... that's not "working together"? It doesn't seem like "working apart." Maybe I don't understand what you mean, but in splitting the command up the desired outcome would be to bring everyone together right?

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 08:29 AM
So... that's not "working together"? It doesn't seem like "working apart." Maybe I don't understand what you mean, but in splitting the command up the desired outcome would be to bring everyone together right?
When someone says "working together", it can mean a lot of things. Most people on these boards, for example, mean that they simply stop being antagonists and simply start working together towards a common goal again.

Very few of them actually mean splitting command up. If you mean that you agree that they should divide command up, please say so. Being vague is no something desirable in a debate.

Lord Hurin
April 12th, 2010, 08:37 AM
When someone says "working together", it can mean a lot of things. Most people on these boards, for example, mean that they simply stop being antagonists and simply start working together towards a common goal again.

Very few of them actually mean splitting command up. If you mean that you agree that they should divide command up, please say so. Being vague is no something desirable in a debate.

Yes, I agree that Wray should be in charge of the day-to-day stuff, putting people where they're most qualified, etc. This is where she's most qualified as well, being an HR person.

I think that Young should be in charge of away teams and offworld activity, etc. Just like the military almost always has.

I think Rush should be consulted about anything to do with the Destiny itself. He should also be given free reign to look into the systems, various rooms, etc. Just like they did on Atlantis. Also just like on Atlantis, he should have to report to someone when he finds something that would benefit or endanger all those aboard.

This is, however, a best case scenario. Certainly not all would agree to it (fans on GateWorld and crewmembers of Destiny alike) and it can be difficult to implement. Personally, I'd like to see everyone have a task to do to the best of their abilities. Obviously not a round-the-clock thing, but like an 8-hour work day. That leaves plenty of time for sleep and plenty of time to unwind.

Just one last aside, since someone said the fitness programme was forced: I think it's a good idea for everyone to be in decent shape. When they're offworld and need to haul ass back to the gate, the slowest guy may not make it.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 08:45 AM
Just one last aside, since someone said the fitness programme was forced: I think it's a good idea for everyone to be in decent shape. When they're offworld and need to haul ass back to the gate, the slowest guy may not make it.
How about simply mandate that everyone who goes off-world has to stay in shape? After all, there are people on the ship who will probably never go off-world because their skills are only needed on the ship.

Lord Hurin
April 12th, 2010, 08:54 AM
How about simply mandate that everyone who goes off-world has to stay in shape? After all, there are people on the ship who will probably never go off-world because their skills are only needed on the ship.

True, but that may defy the writers' need to include people on away missions who don't belong there. Take "Air" for example, did Eli really need to go with them?!

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 08:58 AM
True, but that may defy the writers' need to include people on away missions who don't belong there. Take "Air" for example, did Eli really need to go with them?!
Well, he is the 2nd most knowledgeable and intelligent person on the ship (according to the writers insofar, anyway).

A better question would be: Chloe, why in the flying pig was she off-world in "Time"?!

s09119
April 12th, 2010, 08:59 AM
i dont, destiny isnt a colony, it was an evac site, they could get home in a week and they would prefer to bicker amongst themselves

But it has since become a colony. People need to stop thinking about it as some sort of temporary home, since unless you know something I or the characters don't, they could be here for the rest of their lives.

Lord Hurin
April 12th, 2010, 09:03 AM
Well, he is the 2nd most knowledgeable and intelligent person on the ship (according to the writers insofar, anyway).

A better question would be: Chloe, why in the flying pig was she off-world in "Time"?!

As for Eli: true, but they already had the smartest person on the away mission. Why take all their geniuses?

As for Chloe:

Cynical answer: because she's a main cast member and the writers needed to give her something to do.

"In-Universe" answer: It seemed almost like a little field trip; almost everyone went to the planet to collect food, take samples and generally stretch their legs a bit.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 09:11 AM
As for Eli: true, but they already had the smartest person on the away mission. Why take all their geniuses?
Stupidity? Like that Stargate Atlantis episode where SGA-1 got captured by the Wraith. What does Sam do? She sends Radek, herself and Lorne after them. Had they been captured (and killed) as well, the entire chain of command was gone.

Base leader Sam, dead. 2nd in command of the military, John, dead. 3rd in command, Lorne, dead. Head of the science department, Rodney, dead. 2nd in comand, Radek, dead. Smart move, Sam!


"In-Universe" answer: It seemed almost like a little field trip; almost everyone went to the planet to collect food, take samples and generally stretch their legs a bit.
I hope they learned from that little AU experience that she had no place going off-world for a little field trip seeing as how even the most calm-looking planet can be infested with deadly creatures.

beafly
April 12th, 2010, 10:07 AM
I do disagree though on the shared power issue.

Delegation of responsibility yes.

Shared authority no.

One person (with chain of command identified), with authority and responsibility.

Having a debate on time sensitive life-threatening situations is unacceptable.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 10:30 AM
Having a debate on time sensitive life-threatening situations is unacceptable.
Young would have authority on all military decisions, Rush on the scientific decisions and Wray on everything else. There would be no debate unless the person in command of the current situation at hand gets vetoed by the other two on the committee.

Lahela
April 12th, 2010, 11:10 AM
I believe you are underestimating the power of rock-paper-scissors. While Rush, Young and Wray fight it out, some others step in and combine forces to share power of the Destiny in perfect harmony, locking the three alpha dogs in a room as they continue to wage their battles - Young will always pick rock (Rock bashes brain, he reasons), Wray will always pick paper (Bureaucrat 101: Always Have Paper) and Rush'll pick scissors ("My beard! I need to cut my beard!").

I saw an ad on some sports TV station once for "World Championship Rock, Paper, Scissors". :S

Tuvok
April 12th, 2010, 11:18 AM
Actually, quite a few of us have done just that in various threads. :)
I totally agree that each faction has their obvious leader and those three leaders should work together for the good of all on board.

Actually a compromise would be the best option.

Just not yet.

Lets face actions on both sides have not helped any.

RUSH- I get it Young is not letting you gain access to the secrets of Destiny. But the whole making the ship think he's a cold blooded murderer. Not cricket mate.

YOUNG - Yeah Rush is an egotistical toad who will do anything to get what he wants. Sure you lost your temper. But you do need him to survive , plus the whole marooning him while understandable dishonors you.

WRAY - I know your trying your best. Your trained for handling human resources not being trapped lightyears from home. Desperate to get back to your girlfriend. But treating the Military as unreasonable grunts that don't know their place. And trying to take over the ship, not helpfull.

I think Young should remain in overall charge for now. Later a compromise where he dictates command on all aspects of survival which is the main directive. Wray ( if she gets her act together ) attempts to keep Civies \ Military personal sane and co-operating and Rush left to figure out both the ship and a way home with some oversight from Eli and Young.

:o

Coronach
April 12th, 2010, 02:25 PM
What is it with people? Both factions here on Gateworld seem to think that only "their" side deserves to command the ship. It's All Wrush vs. Young, all the time.

Am I the only one advocating compromise?

Oh, you're definitely not. I (and several others I can think of) have advocated this point as well. The idea of transferring Young's level of power to Wray or Rush simply by virtue of them being civilians seems ludicrous to me.

Yes, I definitely think a compromise needs to be reached.

rlr149
April 12th, 2010, 05:27 PM
What is it with people? ...........[stuff]............ So why, not, people? Why not simply try to make the best of the situation, even after "Divided", and share the power?

yes, lets have a committee meeting while we're being shot by aliens, when we decide to repel boarders do we need another meeting to determine whether ranged or melee are used to do it?

nx01a
April 12th, 2010, 05:47 PM
What is it with people? Both factions here on Gateworld seem to think that only "their" side deserves to command the ship. It's All Wrush vs. Young, all the time.

Am I the only one advocating compromise?
The Destiny should be ruled by committee. What committee? Rush - Wray - Young - maybe more people if needed. Rush would get the science department, seeing as that's what he does best. Young would get the military department, seeing as that's what he does best and Wray gets the rest (the "civilian" part, minus the science). Shared power makes for less chance of corruption, overwork and stress. So why, not, people? Why not simply try to make the best of the situation, even after "Divided", and share the power?You are not alone. It's just that it's really not possible. Wray, Rush and Young... These people distrust or ourtight hate each other. There's no way any power-sharing will ever work with them. They're all personalities that seem to need to have things their way and will take steps to remove obstacles to their control. If Rush went even more 'overboard' with his The Prince impression, Wray would side with Young to stop him. And Young might even side with Rush to stop Wray from wielding too much power over the crew. There's no living with any of them, much less working with/for them.

In all honesty, sharing just won't work. With that out the door, look at our potential leaders...
>Rush... I'm honestly scared of having him in charge, though it would sure be fun to watch. :D
>Wray had her chance at command and that was a disaster, relegating the military to second class citizens and placing civilians with little experience in control of potentially dangerous situations [expedition to alien planet, the chair room].
>I don't get the sense that Young sees the military as being any better than the civilians. He's a leader who is used to delegating resources and personnel. If push comes to shove, I'll sadly defer to him as the best person to lead the crew.

Xeno
April 12th, 2010, 07:23 PM
This is really an interesting subject matter. I'm sorry for ignoring a bit of this thread (the second and third pages) but I feel it's best to lay my opinion down before reading onward to thus make it more my own and less a conglomeration of others ideas mixed with some of my own.

I don't feel any of us are actually in a position yet to fully decide on Rush or Wray's command. We haven't seen Rush in command except for a little while in Air before Young got back on his feet; and even then he still had to have the support of Scott to get people to do what he wanted.

Wray was in command for a bit of an episode when Young was framed and whatnot so we don't really know how she would command.

We've seen Young's command this entire season thus far and I have to admit that so far there's definitely the good and the bad. I'm sure if we were to see more from the civvies perspective (including scientists) that perhaps we could relate more with their cause and their coup. But since we have NOT seen any we cannot make any judgement against Young's rule unless we take a few looks at some of the more important things he's done.

1. Leaving Rush on the planet was an obviously huge, MASSIVE failure in Young's decision making. Momentary rage made him for all he knew kill a man.
2. "Fire on the big ship" "BUT CHLOE'S STILL ONBOARD!" Hmmm.. Greater good or trying to get rid of Rush so that he wouldn't expose him? It's hard to tell in this circumstance.
3. Most recently in Divided when he was ordering Eli to bring weapons online which turned out to probably have been a bad idea when Eli, monitoring power levels, suggested that Rush was correct in devoting power to shields.

These definitely highlight the worst decisions in his command unless others want to add some more.

So, we'd have to see more of Rush and Wray in command to make a judgment call on them, but Young is starting to show he's not exactly the most fit to be a dictator.

The triumvirate proposed within this thread is an interesting prospect, but I definitely do not see that sort of arrangement occurring within the near future of Destiny. Too much going on now with the coup, the Military will be on higher alert, etc. If it does happen, however, it will be interesting to see how it plays out given the 3 entirely different people who will be in charge, two of which admittedly hate one another.

This is why we all need to stay tuned every Friday. I love it.

pipi
April 12th, 2010, 07:27 PM
As long as there are communication stones and they have to report to their respective leaders back on Earth, there will be no sharing of the so called power.

Hypothetical scenario; Young reports to O'neal that Wray that snake launched a coup, O'neal discusses with Woolzie and overrules him on grounds of inciting mutiny and pulls rank. Wray is informed via stone link that she is effectively fired or suspended by the IOA until further notice. The crew is informed of Wray's removal from any authority and reminded that they are still under the command of the United States Airforce. And Destiny has been officially confiscated by the military and if you don't want to be part of it then there is an airlock otherwise military rule remains on a military base of operations, which would be the same rules as if they were on Icarus base.

Orion Antreas
April 12th, 2010, 07:31 PM
I actually proposed a collaboration between the three parties on the ship.


Honestly, I think there should be a council as some people have thrown around. It would seat three people representing 3 factions: scientists (Rush), civilians (Wray), and military (Young). When a need for fast-acting decisions, that decision will be made by Young. Usually fast-acting decisions occur during military situations, so that would make sense. That would be simple, yet efficient if all parties were to cooperate. If I was on the ship, I would advocate a structure like this. (Give or take a few ideas along the way.)

These three individuals seem to represent each faction, however, it seems that all three would also exploit their power to achieve their goals, so I ain't sure who should really represent the three factions in this council-like system.

nx01a
April 12th, 2010, 07:35 PM
The best I can think of after Young/Wray/Rush would be Scott/Chloe/Eli... Poor Chloe.
I'd love to put TJ in that tripartite system, but her medical duties could interfere adversely with helping to lead them.

FallenAngelII
April 13th, 2010, 12:12 AM
yes, lets have a committee meeting while we're being shot by aliens, when we decide to repel boarders do we need another meeting to determine whether ranged or melee are used to do it?
Yes, let's not actually read even the OP before responding with a strawman. As head of the military, Young would be in command when being shot at by aliens.



Hypothetical scenario; Young reports to O'neal that Wray that snake launched a coup, O'neal discusses with Woolzie and overrules him on grounds of inciting mutiny and pulls rank. Wray is informed via stone link that she is effectively fired or suspended by the IOA until further notice. The crew is informed of Wray's removal from any authority and reminded that they are still under the command of the United States Airforce. And Destiny has been officially confiscated by the military and if you don't want to be part of it then there is an airlock otherwise military rule remains on a military base of operations, which would be the same rules as if they were on Icarus base.
Yeah, because that attempted murder will be a big hit with the military brass back on Earth, especially after that aggravated assault.

Dream on. If Wray gets punished for the mutiny, Young will get jailed for attempted murder.

nx01a
April 13th, 2010, 12:14 AM
And Rush will take over. Or Scott, as the case may be.

FallenAngelII
April 13th, 2010, 12:16 AM
And Rush will take over. Or Scott, as the case may be.
Scott isn't fit to lead anything except maybe an off-world team. He's still young and immature. He thinks not with his head, but with his heart. He can't even think of the "greater good". It's always "I must save every single person". That thinking will lead to the deaths of many when a situation arises when there is no way to save everyone.

nx01a
April 13th, 2010, 12:25 AM
You're certainly right about Scott. Him in command and Chloe in danger would automatically equal, "Weapons to maximum!"
Well, in my opinion, Rush is also dangerous if left in command. I'm sure there would be rapid progress, but how many expendable people would have to suffer for it to be achieved?

pipi
April 13th, 2010, 02:16 AM
Yeah, because that attempted murder will be a big hit with the military brass back on Earth, especially after that aggravated assault.

Dream on. If Wray gets punished for the mutiny, Young will get jailed for attempted murder.

There's a thing called evidence and a trial before any punishment. The chance of a successful prosecution for inciting mutiny far out weighs one man's word against another's word on an alien planet. Do the maths. And the severity of the allegations are vastly not equal. And the parties involved are different. You're comparing Young vs Rush to Young vs Wray.

FallenAngelII
April 13th, 2010, 02:39 AM
There's a thing called evidence and a trial before any punishment. The chance of a successful prosecution for inciting mutiny far out weighs one man's word against another's word on an alien planet. Do the maths. And the severity of the allegations are vastly not equal. And the parties involved are different. You're comparing Young vs Rush to Young vs Wray.
Oh, so you're saying Young is a big enough of a conceited, selfish ******* to try to get the IOA to punish Wray and Rush while at the same time lying about his actions on the desert planet? Wow, what a great leader that man is!

It's not just one man's word against one other man now. He admitted it to Wray at the end of "Divided". And even though hey were talking in hushed voices, maybe some of the civilians standing nearby heard him. And considering his track record (Telford), the military brass would at least have enough doubt to relieve him of his post, lest they face the wrath of the civilian populus of the Destiny.

Because they're not gonna stand for Wray getting punished with Young getting off the hook.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 04:21 AM
pipi,


There's a thing called evidence and a trial before any punishment. The chance of a successful prosecution for inciting mutiny far out weighs one man's word against another's word on an alien planet. Do the maths. And the severity of the allegations are vastly not equal. And the parties involved are different. You're comparing Young vs Rush to Young vs Wray.

Sounds like you're cool with Young telling black tounge lies about what happened between him and Rush. Are you?

pipi
April 13th, 2010, 04:35 AM
It's not just one man's word against one other man now. He admitted it to Wray at the end of "Divided".
<mod snip> Rush can admit whatever to as many people as he wants to confide in and it'll still ONLY be his word and no other evidence. If anything, by telling Wray and other people of his version of events it has caused a chain reaction by sowing extra decent into the civilian population based ONLY on his word. Nothing has been proven yet. And Rush went with the rockslide story at first, his testimony keeps changing making his word in a court of law worthless. So there will never be sufficient evidence to put Young in jail, but there is plenty of evidence to put Wray away. Got that? These are facts.

Daro
April 13th, 2010, 04:44 AM
<mod snip> Rush can admit whatever to as many people as he wants to confide in and it'll still ONLY be his word and no other evidence. If anything, by telling Wray and other people of his version of events it has caused a chain reaction by sowing extra decent into the civilian population based ONLY on his word. Nothing has been proven yet. And Rush went with the rockslide story at first, his testimony keeps changing making his word in a court of law worthless. So there will never be sufficient evidence to put Young in jail, but there is plenty of evidence to put Wray away. Got that? These are facts.

Dissent, not decent.

The civilians obviously believe that Rush told the version of the story about the rockslide because he was in a public place and didn't know who was on his side, and feared that Young would finish the job. That's easy to believe. Just because we viewers have seen Rush lie a lot doesn't mean that most of the others on the ship have.
Besides that, the argument wasn't even that Rush told Wray and that's how she knew. It was that Young confirmed it. Now you have the testimony of both dudes involved, and that's a solid case. Besides that, we know that, this time, at least, Rush was telling the truth.

Skydiver
April 13th, 2010, 05:02 AM
AGAIN

Folks, stuff like 'are you stupid' is not a part of a debate or conversation.
Keep it civil or keep it to yourself

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 05:22 AM
pipi,


As long as there are communication stones and they have to report to their respective leaders back on Earth, there will be no sharing of the so called power.

Hypothetical scenario; Young reports to O'neal that Wray that snake launched a coup, O'neal discusses with Woolzie and overrules him on grounds of inciting mutiny and pulls rank. Wray is informed via stone link that she is effectively fired or suspended by the IOA until further notice. The crew is informed of Wray's removal from any authority and reminded that they are still under the command of the United States Airforce. And Destiny has been officially confiscated by the military and if you don't want to be part of it then there is an airlock otherwise military rule remains on a military base of operations, which would be the same rules as if they were on Icarus base.

If I were on the science team or a civilian I would quite simply refuse to do any more work and encourage others to follow my example I might even stage a hunger strike.

beafly
April 13th, 2010, 09:02 AM
pipi,



If I were on the science team or a civilian I would quite simply refuse to do any more work and encourage others to follow my example I might even stage a hunger strike.

To what end are you striking?

In your ideal scenario, what would happen?

EDIT: I only ask because I'm struggling to understand the motivation of Joe scientist aboard the Destiny. Rush I think I get. Wray I think I get. I see them using their own selfish motivations to steer the rest of the scientists in a specific direction. What does Joe scientist REALLY want?

FallenAngelII
April 13th, 2010, 09:08 AM
<mod snip> Rush can admit whatever to as many people as he wants to confide in and it'll still ONLY be his word and no other evidence. If anything, by telling Wray and other people of his version of events it has caused a chain reaction by sowing extra decent into the civilian population based ONLY on his word. Nothing has been proven yet. And Rush went with the rockslide story at first, his testimony keeps changing making his word in a court of law worthless. So there will never be sufficient evidence to put Young in jail, but there is plenty of evidence to put Wray away. Got that? These are facts.
Young admitted to it to Wray!

What evidence is there to "put Wray away"? It's Young's and the military's word against that of Wray's and the civilians' (and the civilians outnumber the military). Likewise, it's Rush's and the civilians' words against Young's and the military's. There were several civilians present when Young admitted to Wray that he left Rush behind to die on the planet on purpose.

"I didn't do it!"
"You did!"
"You admitted to me you did!"
"I was there and heard you admit to her that you did!"

It's now one man's word against, what, four people. It's not enough to put Young in jail, perhaps, but it's enough to relieve him of his command. If he goes to the military brass back on Earth and complains about Wray and Rush and tries to have them locked up, Wray and Rush will go to the IOA, who are above the U.S. military, and have them pull some strings to relieve Young of his duties permanently.

And I still wanna hear about all of this this alleged "evidence" that exists to put Wray away.

Detox
April 13th, 2010, 11:32 AM
It's not who deserves to be in charge, it's who has been PUT in charge by those above them.


YOUNG: Well, I can't force people to do something they don't wanna do.

O'NEILL: You're in command of that ship! It's not a democracy.

Young is the commander of ship, whether the civilians like it or not. If they don't, they should have taken it up with O'Neil or the IOA instead of instituting a mutiny. The whole mutiny thing honestly makes no sense at all. If they had proof Young stranded Rush, they could have just gone to O'Neil, and had him order Young to stand down and be replaced by someone else.

The Shrike
April 13th, 2010, 11:41 AM
....The whole mutiny thing honestly makes no sense at all. If they had proof Young stranded Rush, they could have just gone to O'Neil, and had him order Young to stand down and be replaced by someone else.Good luck getting Young to allow them access to the stones. I know he's made some bad decisions, but even he's not that dumb.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 12:55 PM
Detox,


It's not who deserves to be in charge, it's who has been PUT in charge by those above them.



Young is the commander of ship, whether the civilians like it or not. If they don't, they should have taken it up with O'Neil or the IOA instead of instituting a mutiny. The whole mutiny thing honestly makes no sense at all. If they had proof Young stranded Rush, they could have just gone to O'Neil, and had him order Young to stand down and be replaced by someone else.

If Young refused to step down and was backed by the rest of the military personel what would General O'Neil do? Earth has no ability to enforce any of the dictates they hand down.

nx01a
April 13th, 2010, 12:56 PM
The only thing Earth can do would be to stop letting them connect via the stones. No specialists, no visits with loved ones in other people's bodies, etc.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 01:01 PM
nx01a,


The only thing Earth can do would be to stop letting them connect via the stones. No specialists, no visits with loved ones in other people's bodies, etc.

Not much of a threat if Young's already denying people access to the stones.

jelgate
April 13th, 2010, 01:04 PM
nx01a,



Not much of a threat if Young's already denying people access to the stones.No hes not

nx01a
April 13th, 2010, 01:05 PM
nx01a,
Not much of a threat if Young's already denying people access to the stones.That's assuming he will. Denied access was because of the alien connection in 'Space'. I don't think he'll keep anyone from the stones next episode, especially with the wealth of people they can bring to Destiny to assist. Deny them access just to keep himself 'in command'? I don't see it happening. It'll just make things even worse aboard the ship.

beafly
April 13th, 2010, 01:09 PM
Furthermore, do we even know what Young was planning to report in space, when he inadvertently connected to the alien consciousness?

For all we know he could have been stoning back to report to O'neil and relieve himself from command?

nx01a
April 13th, 2010, 01:11 PM
And Wray was scheduled to swap also, right? At that point she only had suspicion about Rush's 'accident' and not the confirmation she has now, but it would still have been damaging to Young.

Gollumpus
April 13th, 2010, 01:28 PM
So let's assume they go with some sort of triumvirate. Let's even remove personalities from the equation. There is no Wray, Rush or Young. W deals with war, S with science and C gets everything else. Assuming they all play fair there should be no problems. Right?

Outside of an obvious situation like "the enemy ships are firing on us", who decides when a war scenario starts? Who decides when a war scenario ends? If W thinks a war scenario is still active and has, in his/her expert opinion a very good reason to not stop shooting, should s/he be able to be over-ruled by S and C? And if S and C do vote to stand down, how do they enforce their decision? In some cases they possibly could, in other cases they would be completely helpless.

S decides that a particular experiment should occur. C doesn't like the risks of the proposed experiment. W doesn't like it because it draws power form defensive/offensive systems. They vote S down. S decides to go ahead with the experiment regardless. They lock out W and C from the physical area and also lock them out from the ship's systems. What can W and C do about it? What do they do about it after the experiment is over (assuming they all live through it). If S did proceed in such a manner, would it become a W scenario?

C wants something from W and/or S, or both. what do they do if W says, "no, it's too risky" or S says, "no, it's too risky". What do they do? How do they get what they want?

The proposed triumvirate structure has no hope of success. The power is unbalanced, with far too much in the hands of the military or the science contingents.

regards,
G.

FallenAngelII
April 13th, 2010, 11:34 PM
Young is the commander of ship, whether the civilians like it or not. If they don't, they should have taken it up with O'Neil or the IOA instead of instituting a mutiny. The whole mutiny thing honestly makes no sense at all. If they had proof Young stranded Rush, they could have just gone to O'Neil, and had him order Young to stand down and be replaced by someone else.
That's the whole point: They don't have proof and they know Young would never admit to his crimes.

Which is why they felt that their only option was mutiny.


Good luck getting Young to allow them access to the stones. I know he's made some bad decisions, but even he's not that dumb.
He will have to or there will be a massive strike. And the people back on Earth will also suspect something is up when no more civilians report back, especially Wray.


Furthermore, do we even know what Young was planning to report in space, when he inadvertently connected to the alien consciousness?

For all we know he could have been stoning back to report to O'neil and relieve himself from command?
Yeah, no.

Because after the incidents, it was safe to at least test the stones up again (bind up the user like in "Space"), yet he didn't report back to Earth to have them relieve him of his command. And we saw in "Divided" that he feels perfectly justified in continuing to command the ship as a dictator.

escyos
April 14th, 2010, 01:29 AM
sure lets bicker about command instead of workign on getting home....power shouldnt be shared, what are we COMMUNISTS!

on another but cloesly similar note: power shouldnt be shared....alcohol should.

pipi
April 14th, 2010, 03:24 AM
Young admitted to it to Wray!
No he did not! I know what you're referring to, it's episode 11 space, ~ time 03:24; Wray tells Young he has plenty of motive, then Young asks Wray if she thinks he (Young) wants people on this ship suspecting him of murder, then Wray says maybe that burden is easier to bear than dealing with Rush, then Young replies "well I'll admit it, I don't miss the man". This is a simple case of English grammar. In this instance Rush only admits that he doesn't miss the man (aka Rush), he did not admit to the allegation of murder only that he does not miss the man which is still not compelling evidence, lots of people don't miss him (Rush). Also during that same conversation Wray admits that she has NO proof that Young murdered Rush ONLY motive, which means squat unless there is actual proof.

And at ~ 09:20 when Wray talks to Young in this quaters regarding the stone malfunction, Young explicitly reminds Wray that the murder that Wray keeps accusing him of has not been proven. "I believe you mean allegedly", at this point in time Young has not admitted anything. If he did admit it to Wray why would he pretend that he didn't.



What evidence is there to "put Wray away"? It's Young's and the military's word against that of Wray's and the civilians' (and the civilians outnumber the military).

If you're referring to what evidence is there to prove that Wray incited mutiny or a coup, then that evidence will be in the advent of a trial, everyone gets interviewed and they will tell the truth about what happen on that day. It is naive to assume that all civilians or even Wray will lie under oath to deny any involvement with overthrowning Young's command. Is Chloe going to lie that nothing happen? I don't think so. Is every single civlian who was involved with what happen going to deny what happen? I don't think so. Wray will probably just plead guilty because she knows the evidence is too compelling. I don't understand what your argument is about with regards to your claim that there are more civilians than the military? SO WHAT. Irrelevant.



"I didn't do it!"
"You did!"
"You admitted to me you did!"
"I was there and heard you admit to her that you did!"


I don't recall watching that. If you can quote the episode number and time so I can rewatch it.




And I still wanna hear about all of this this alleged "evidence" that exists to put Wray away.

If there is a trial, everyone will get interviewed and the truth will come out that Wray incited a mutiny/coup. The court will read Young's military reports and they will also read Wray's reports. If everyone tells the truth in their interviews, it'll be 100% clear she's guilty as charged. There's also Kino footage of Wray's and some people plotting in the Hydro lab thanks to Eli. It doesn't get any simpler than that. Even if she pleads her case that she was provoked, it still does not excuse the crime. It's not like self defence. Two wrongs does not make a right.

Orion's Star
April 14th, 2010, 03:44 AM
Triumvirates and power sharing agreements rarely, if ever, work out. They usually end in disollution or death. Basic understanding of human nature would tell you this is inevitable.

And if they do manage to last as a political entity, they are usually shams, where one person holds the majority of the true power and the other members of the group exist merely to offer the appearance of a divided power base.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumvirate

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 14th, 2010, 05:34 AM
Pipi,

What about after Young retook the ship and Wray looked at him and said, "You shouldn't have left him to die." Young responded, "You think I don't know that?" That's an admission against interest that would get by the hearsay rule.

beafly
April 14th, 2010, 06:23 AM
Pipi,

What about after Young retook the ship and Wray looked at him and said, "You shouldn't have left him to die." Young responded, "You think I don't know that?" That's an admission against interest that would get by the hearsay rule.

Young already admitted that he fell in a rock slide. The statement you quote above is consistent with his previous story too.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 14th, 2010, 06:27 AM
Beafly,

Good point. Young has shown his willingness to lie and to allow other's to take resonsibility for his actions. It would be consistent for him to perjur himself.

beafly
April 14th, 2010, 06:44 AM
Exactly. As he said to Rush, "It's your word against mine." I don't see how anything he has said thus far to Wray would change that. He's been very careful choosing his word with her. He wants her to know that he did it, but not be liable.

As I've stated before, his ability to flat out lie is what I dislike most about the man. He's a sack of crap just like Rush.

FallenAngelII
April 15th, 2010, 05:54 AM
No he did not!
Have you, you know, seen "Divided"?

WRAY: You shouldn't have left him on the planet.
YOUNG (softly): You think I don't know that?


If you're referring to what evidence is there to prove that Wray incited mutiny or a coup, then that evidence will be in the advent of a trial, everyone gets interviewed and they will tell the truth about what happen on that day.
So your "evidence" is simple testimony. The same evidence exists for the attempt at Rush's life.


It is naive to assume that all civilians or even Wray will lie under oath to deny any involvement with overthrowning Young's command.
And what happens when Young lies under oath with Rush, Wray and whoever else heard Young confess testify against him? He said/She said in both situations.

If Young willfully lies during his testimony, I do not doubt that the civilian will retaliate by lying under oath during Wray's trial in turn.


I don't recall watching that. If you can quote the episode number and time so I can rewatch it.
I was illustrating how the testimonials will play out.


If there is a trial, everyone will get interviewed and the truth will come out that Wray incited a mutiny/coup. The court will read Young's military reports and they will also read Wray's reports. If everyone tells the truth in their interviews, it'll be 100% clear she's guilty as charged.
And if everyone tells the 100% truth, it will be clear that Young is guilty as charged. What is your point?!


There's also Kino footage of Wray's and some people plotting in the Hydro lab thanks to Eli.
It doesn't prove the mutiny took place at all! Also, Rush can easily erase that. If Young tries to have Wray punished for the mutiny while continuing to lie about his attempted murder on Rush, Eli will be forced to side with civilians and erase any incriminating evidence that indicts Wray. Because Eli has an actual conscience.


It's not like self defence. Two wrongs does not make a right.
Yes it is. Young attempted to murder Rush. Wray felt that he was a danger to the crew. Wray wasn't going to lock him up, she simply didn't want him in command anymore.


Pipi,

What about after Young retook the ship and Wray looked at him and said, "You shouldn't have left him to die." Young responded, "You think I don't know that?" That's an admission against interest that would get by the hearsay rule.
There's no hearsay there. It's a direct admission coming from the culprit's own mouth.

rlr149
April 15th, 2010, 12:44 PM
Yes, let's not actually read even the OP before responding with a strawman. As head of the military, Young would be in command when being shot at by aliens.

not the point, you can't run things optimally by commitee............ a council(govornment) can decide policy, you still need a 'leader'(president/prime minister) though who doesn't have to(not saying he shouldn't if he has the time etc) consult with several other people who might think they should be in charge to make any kind of decision.

and i did read it, classic wishy washy "can't we all get along" type woolly thinking, and if theres anything that the vast array of human history proves............. its that we can't all get along!

by all means hope for it, but don't gamble lives on it. not mine anyway;)

nx01a
April 15th, 2010, 12:54 PM
I agree with you, rlr.
Yes it is. Young attempted to murder Rush. Wray felt that he was a danger to the crew. Wray wasn't going to lock him up, she simply didn't want him in command anymore.That's certainly downplaying the extent of the coup and its ultimate ends [Wray back in command and the military being second class citizens again.]

And who would take Young's place? Certainly not Wray. Definitely not Rush. Sure as heck not Volker! Danger to the crew or not, he's [sadly] the best choice for leader on the ship.

Gollumpus
April 15th, 2010, 01:13 PM
What about after Young retook the ship and Wray looked at him and said, "You shouldn't have left him to die." Young responded, "You think I don't know that?" That's an admission against interest that would get by the hearsay rule.

The actual quote is, "You shouldn't have left him on the planet." This is a big difference from what you have said.

Just to play devil's advocate here, in a court of law if Wray's comments and Young's response were written into evidence as they were actually spoken there could indeed be a very big reasonable doubt here. A lawyer would likely say that his client (Young) actually meant, "You think I don't know that? - I should have tried harder to see if he was actually still alive, what with the expertise Dr. Rush brings to the table. Also, I was aware of how it would look to people due to our past history. It was a failure on my part not to check on him and my only defense is I had to rush back to reach the gate before Destiny departed. If it wasn't for that I would have checked him and found him alive and then returned him to the ship."

Combine the above with Rush confirming to the rank and file that events unfolded as Young had said, and him saying that Young had "done the right thing" (whether he's actually told Wray of not is open to debate and would be something which could be torn down by a good lawyer), Young would walk.

regards,
G.

Lord Hurin
April 15th, 2010, 07:52 PM
Combine the above with Rush confirming to the rank and file that events unfolded as Young had said, and him saying that Young had "done the right thing" (whether he's actually told Wray of not is open to debate and would be something which could be torn down by a good lawyer), Young would walk.

The problem with this is that it seems Rush has told everyone about what really happened. Wray and Chloe know for sure, and I figured that this fact was the main thing going against Young in the civilians' eyes.

So, basically Rush is being sneaky. Show of hands, who's surprised? :P

nx01a
April 15th, 2010, 08:32 PM
*doesn't raise hand*
If Young decides to tell the civilians that Rush framed him and that led to Rush's being left behind, I wonder how many would be eager to get behind Rush [and Wray] again.

Gollumpus
April 15th, 2010, 08:50 PM
The problem with this is that it seems Rush has told everyone about what really happened. Wray and Chloe know for sure, and I figured that this fact was the main thing going against Young in the civilians' eyes.

And Rush, while he was getting in his first square meal in a few days, told everyone that events unfolded as Young had said. If I were a civilian on that ship I may not be in support of Young, but I would have a lot of questions to ask Rush (considering his history) about the change in his position before I went along with a plan he was supporting. Wray would likely "believe him" regardless of the veracity of his position because it would support her position. Chloe would support Rush because she feels a sense of loyalty to him from his rescue of her from the alien ship. How much that has affected her sense of credulity is anyone's guess. :)

regards,
G.

Starrtom
April 19th, 2010, 07:36 PM
Once you introduce a committee to run things you will have problems. It will create more angst then peace. It will become political, it will create factions and divisions. Egos will get in the way of actually making the right decision and nothing will get done. I have worked with committees, luckly not in them, and understand the pitfalls very well. The destiny needs one clear leader that can take charge, deligate duties and ensure the survival of the people.

Democracy wouldn't work in a situation the people of the Destiny are in. I don't advocate dictatorship, but leadership.