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jelgate
April 11th, 2010, 05:15 PM
One concept we have seen Rush strongly believe in is "the greater good." He on a few occasions has said its okay to sacrifice human lives (among other things) if it benefits the overall group. But in Divided the tracking device was a serious problem for the Destiny in that Rush's presence severly puts danger and risk the Destiny. Does not Rush's concept of the greater good makes his death more benefical for the Destiny then him being alive. While I personally don't blame him for wanting to stay alive does not make Rush a hypocrite of his moral beliefs?

asdf1239
April 11th, 2010, 05:17 PM
they need him alive for his scientific and technical aptitude

reddevil18
April 11th, 2010, 05:21 PM
Oh, no doubt. His "for the greater good" bullcrap is just that. BS. Rush is all about Rush.

s09119
April 11th, 2010, 05:30 PM
Oh, no doubt. His "for the greater good" bullcrap is just that. BS. Rush is all about Rush.

Not entirely. He's Machiavellian to a point, but he sees himself as the Prince in this situation. He can sacrifice all the others for the greater good, but he himself is far too valuable.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 11th, 2010, 05:33 PM
Not entirely. He's Machiavellian to a point, but he sees himself as the Prince in this situation. He can sacrifice all the others for the greater good, but he himself is far too valuable.

Well that's how he justifies it to himself. :D When it comes down to it however Rush is all about what's best for him and his mysterious ulterior motives. Though I suppose its possible that those unknown motives might justify his actions...

jelgate
April 11th, 2010, 05:35 PM
they need him alive for his scientific and technical aptitude

I'm not arguing that his scientific skills are valuable just that he betrays his greater good philosphy by only useing it when it doesn't involve him

AtlantisRules!!!
April 11th, 2010, 05:36 PM
Well... I know I'm very Pro-Rush and Jel's probably going to disregard this anyway (:p) But he sorta is too valueable. How many times has he saved their lives in 12 eps? Plus, he's not brave enough to sacrifice himself.

jelgate
April 11th, 2010, 05:38 PM
Well... I know I'm very Pro-Rush and Jel's probably going to disregard this anyway (:p) But he sorta is too valueable. How many times has he saved their lives in 12 eps?

His valuableness its not what is in question. Just how well he follow his so called moral belifs

Alan Wake
April 11th, 2010, 05:40 PM
I'd say his morals and values about... anything... change with the situation.

asdf1239
April 11th, 2010, 06:24 PM
I'm not arguing that his scientific skills are valuable just that he betrays his greater good philosphy by only useing it when it doesn't involve him
yes but it is also for the good of the others whether intentionally or not because they need his expertise

jelgate
April 11th, 2010, 06:35 PM
yes but it is also for the good of the others whether intentionally or not because they need his expertise

His science skills are useless if aliens blow up the Destiny

Zkyire
April 11th, 2010, 06:48 PM
It's not really betraying the Greater Good philosophy.

Without Rush, the crew of the Destiny are royally screwed. He's their best chance to get home.

If he sacrifices himself, sure he would have saved them in the short term, but they'd be stranded, possibly forever (or at least a lot longer than they would have been). And if they ever encountered a big problem with the ship, like say, a eactor overload, again, Rush would need to be there.

jsonitsac
April 11th, 2010, 07:01 PM
I think his concept of the "grater good" would be different than what somebody like Young or Scott would have as military officers. As officers they are trained to be willing to sacrifice themselves first, for the good of the unit. For example, it is common tradition in the US military (in the field) that in the field officers eat only after their subordinates have been served. Furthermore, being in the military they are constantly aware of the fact that they could be called on to sacrifice their lives for their country (or being in the SGC for their planet). Truthfully, I haven't seen any evidence that Rush would be willing to make that deal. Instead he's advocated killing (or allowing others to die) just for what he sees as the greater good, but I have yet to see him go through with it himself.

Daro
April 12th, 2010, 02:11 AM
As most know, I'm a big Rush fan. That said, yes, he absolutely is a hypocrite in "Divided."

What he did is understandable, no one wants to die, and he had good reason to believe that revealing the tracking device inside his chest would lead to him being tossed out the nearest airlock. That said, his plan of "If our shields hold them off, they'll leave us alone and everything will be fine," is by far the worst plan he's come up with so far for the survival of Destiny and the crew. Of course that would never have worked, and had he not been in denial, just coming back from a traumatic near-death event, he'd have realised the logic he was using was flawed.
What he did was soundly reject to subject himself to the cold logic he expects other people on the ship to be subject to. I have rarely found his decisions inaccurate, such as in 'Water,' where only by chance was Young able to pull Scott out of that ravine, but he jumps to them so quickly and does not candy-coat anything he says until after Chloe and Young rebuke him.

Maybe some good will come out of this, and Rush will either be more honest with himself in the future, and/or he will apply that refusal-to-give-up approach to situations where someone else's life hangs in the balance. I think he already did so by saving Chloe.

Oh, and as for him viewing himself as Destiny's greatest asset: I think he is, but that doesn't mean that, in this situation, he was right to keep the implant secret. He placed the lives of everyone around him in danger and would have kept doing it most likely to protect his secret. Though I was disappointed in Eli for most of the episode, I approved of him telling Young what was going on. And Young redeemed himself just a smidge for doing the right thing by turning around and using logic against Rush (but, I noticed, not completely without compassion.)

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 03:47 AM
In Rush's mind, he is vital to the survival of the crew (and might actually be). Also, Rush has never advocated for the killing of someone for the greater good. He planned to, once he had control, have the beacon removed. He just didn't want Young still in control when it was being done since he feared Young might simply abandon him on another planet again or, worse, kill him outright (and can you blame him after Young punched him out and left him to die of thirst and starvation?).

pipi
April 12th, 2010, 04:39 AM
I'd say Rush is not a hypocrite because he generally does what he says he'll do. He never preaches his beliefs to anyone cause he keeps to himself. And he doesn't give a false representation to anyone with regard to his moral beliefs. He's a straight shooter, you know where he stands. He doesn't go don't eat this, then secretly eats it himself does he? Or don't touch that, and secretly touches it himself.

Jper
April 12th, 2010, 05:15 AM
One concept we have seen Rush strongly believe in is "the greater good." He on a few occasions has said its okay to sacrifice human lives (among other things) if it benefits the overall group. But in Divided the tracking device was a serious problem for the Destiny in that Rush's presence severly puts danger and risk the Destiny. Does not Rush's concept of the greater good makes his death more benefical for the Destiny then him being alive. While I personally don't blame him for wanting to stay alive does not make Rush a hypocrite of his moral beliefs?

If you put it like that it certainly looks like it, and first off, I don't think we have enough evidence to know if Rush is really as ambiguous as he sometimes, as in this situation, appears to be, or if we are indeed getting the wrong picture. :)

That being said, I think Rush was much much more afraid that if he'd consulted TJ, she'd tell Young. Or if he told too many people of it, that Young would find out. And personally I think if other people hadn't be around when Young walked in the lab, he would have shot Rush, knowing he had a tracking device. I trust Young much less with moral values like this than I trust Rush with them.

Furthermore, there's this


His science skills are useless if aliens blow up the Destiny

I disagree. His skills aren't useless 'cause the usage of those skills clearly prevented the aliens from blowing up Destiny.

And to conclude, Rush may hold up certain values, but he's still a human being after all. And Rush isn't one of the ready-to-use-heroes-right-out-of-the-box. :) Doesn't make him a hypocrite per se.

Vapor
April 12th, 2010, 05:23 AM
Whether or not Rush is a hypocrite would depend on how you define the word "hypocrite."

Is it about what you preach or what you actually believe?

Personally, I think Rush would like everyone to believe him when he says all he wants is the greater good, but that doesn't mean that's what he really feels on the inside. I think it's far more likely that "the greater good" only works when it means he himself is safe.

As soon as "the greater good" doesn't include his own well-being, then it becomes irrelevant, because he wants to survive, and it's not just because he's the guy that can save everyone else. He's not that selfless. Even if he is trying to do the right thing, he's far too self-interested to let himself lose too much control over any given situation.

jelgate
April 12th, 2010, 06:38 AM
If you put it like that it certainly looks like it, and first off, I don't think we have enough evidence to know if Rush is really as ambiguous as he sometimes, as in this situation, appears to be, or if we are indeed getting the wrong picture. :)

That being said, I think Rush was much much more afraid that if he'd consulted TJ, she'd tell Young. Or if he told too many people of it, that Young would find out. And personally I think if other people hadn't be around when Young walked in the lab, he would have shot Rush, knowing he had a tracking device. I trust Young much less with moral values like this than I trust Rush with them.

Can we leave the whole Rush vs Young or how much we disagree with Young. Thier are enough threads already for that. Being afraid to tell others about his device is not in question but how well he follows his so called beliefs

Furthermore, there's this




I disagree. His skills aren't useless 'cause the usage of those skills clearly prevented the aliens from blowing up Destiny.

And to conclude, Rush may hold up certain values, but he's still a human being after all. And Rush isn't one of the ready-to-use-heroes-right-out-of-the-box. :) Doesn't make him a hypocrite per se.
Sure. It was quite a gamble. The Destiny barely made it through. But if I didn't it would have been a complete violation of his greater good stance. We wouldn't have gotten in the Divided scenario if wasn't for Rush and the the tracking device

jelgate
April 12th, 2010, 06:41 AM
I'd say Rush is not a hypocrite because he generally does what he says he'll do. He never preaches his beliefs to anyone cause he keeps to himself. And he doesn't give a false representation to anyone with regard to his moral beliefs. He's a straight shooter, you know where he stands. He doesn't go don't eat this, then secretly eats it himself does he? Or don't touch that, and secretly touches it himself.
He is? You never know what he is up to from one situation to the next

Jper
April 12th, 2010, 07:23 AM
Can we leave the whole Rush vs Young or how much we disagree with Young. Thier are enough threads already for that. Being afraid to tell others about his device is not in question but how well he follows his so called beliefs.

Well it was Rush his belief that Young would kill him if he got the chance, and that TJ couldn't safely remove the tracking device, so it seems very relevant to me. You want to discuss Rush his beliefs then you got to accept the fact that his beliefs are influenced by the situation and vice versa, or how he sees the situation. And you got to accept that the situation and his beliefs are two contributing factors for his actions. It's not only his beliefs that create his actions.



Sure. It was quite a gamble. The Destiny barely made it through. But if I didn't it would have been a complete violation of his greater good stance. We wouldn't have gotten in the Divided scenario if wasn't for Rush and the the tracking device

I don't think so. Rush believes in protecting the "greater good". The greater good being the survival of all persons on board Destiny here. Their safety and the continued existence of the Destiny, their best way of getting home and much more.

So, you have Rush with the tracking device which he believes he cannot tell (the) others about as he's afraid for what the consequences will be. For one, there's the chance that Young might kill him. There's the chance he might die while they try to remove it. In general he might die.

If Rush dies, or even more generally, if the coup had to take place without Rush, 'cause he wasn't there due to the tracking device... Death, locked away, on another planet, take your pick. Then the coup would probably fail. Rush believes the coup is for the better, and for the greater good, to get rid of Young and the military control, to create a safer and better environment on Destiny.

Also, if Rush isn't there anymore, then without him Destiny has much less a chance in surviving. As Young has proven in Divided, he doesn't interact well with Destiny's limitations, and Eli just isn't experienced enough yet.

And, Destiny did make a through. Rush successfully repelled the alien attack by correctly interpreting the evidence provided by Destiny.

There's no way to say that Rush wouldn't have considered doing something about the tracking device after Young and the military weren't in control any longer.

jelgate
April 12th, 2010, 09:56 AM
Well it was Rush his belief that Young would kill him if he got the chance, and that TJ couldn't safely remove the tracking device, so it seems very relevant to me. You want to discuss Rush his beliefs then you got to accept the fact that his beliefs are influenced by the situation and vice versa, or how he sees the situation. And you got to accept that the situation and his beliefs are two contributing factors for his actions. It's not only his beliefs that create his actions.This is true. But Rush's so called beliefs would say that the situation shouldn't even occur because his lose is for the greater good of the crew.




I don't think so. Rush believes in protecting the "greater good". The greater good being the survival of all persons on board Destiny here. Their safety and the continued existence of the Destiny, their best way of getting home and much more.

No arguements here. At least in the context of Divided


So, you have Rush with the tracking device which he believes he cannot tell (the) others about as he's afraid for what the consequences will be. For one, there's the chance that Young might kill him. There's the chance he might die while they try to remove it. In general he might die.

If Rush dies, or even more generally, if the coup had to take place without Rush, 'cause he wasn't there due to the tracking device... Death, locked away, on another planet, take your pick. Then the coup would probably fail. Rush believes the coup is for the better, and for the greater good, to get rid of Young and the military control, to create a safer and better environment on Destiny.

The coup has nothing nothing to do with this scenario. We are talking about the threat Rush is with the aliens able to track him.


Also, if Rush isn't there anymore, then without him Destiny has much less a chance in surviving. As Young has proven in Divided, he doesn't interact well with Destiny's limitations, and Eli just isn't experienced enough yet.
Opposed to the very real possibility that Destiny could have blown up in Divided. He got lucky that they jumped in FTL in time. Obviously for plot purposes we knew that was going to happen but suspending disbelif its seems like too big of a gamble.


And, Destiny did make a through. Rush successfully repelled the alien attack by correctly interpreting the evidence provided by Destiny.

Barely. Like I said above it was luck


There's no way to say that Rush wouldn't have considered doing something about the tracking device after Young and the military weren't in control any longer.
But according to his so called beliefs about considering the greater good of the crew he should have done something about the tracking device regardless of the power status

yanna
April 12th, 2010, 10:24 AM
But according to his so called beliefs about considering the greater good of the crew he should have done something about the tracking device regardless of the power status

That doesn't make much sense. Rush wanted his own people in charge before revealing that he was tagged. He was rightfully afraid that the military would simply kill him. He sees himself as too valuable to the survival of the Destiny. No other scientist can cope. He is not a coward. He was perfectly willing to go down with the ship when they thought it would burn up in the sun and I really don't think he knew.

Maybe I'm a romantic but I see Rush as a tragic character in the show. He made an enormous mistake and stranded all those people on the ship. He's there to take their anger and try to find a way back for them and part of his will to survive is for me the will to fix his mistake and get those people home. He will do anything for that goal.

DrNicholasRush
April 12th, 2010, 10:37 AM
Yes, Rush is certainly a hypocrite and I think that blaring fact, particularly in his willingness to sacrifice other lives rather than his own, really says something about SGU as a whole. This complete inconsistency within the character, where he can say one thing in a certain situation and another when in danger, speaks to the fact that the characters in SGU are a whole lot more human and far more fallible than the ever-faithful Daniel Jackson and morally upright O'Neill.

However, I don't think this indicates a lack of caring in Rush for his fellow teammates or genuine feelings. He's simply a human who wants to survive, no matter what, and while this lack of willingness to sacrifice oneself when push comes to shove is less admirable, it reflects humanity alot more accurately. I get a vibe that he does indeed respect and care for certain people, namely Eli and Chloe. In the case of Eli, it is more of annoyed big brother feeling, he certainly respects him but Eli's apparent immaturity (some would say innocence) annoys the realistic Rush. With Chloe, even as early as Air, Part 2 when his actions caused the death of her father, he seems to be slightly regretful and protective. Unlike some, I don't think he was lying when he said he was sorry her father died, and his general attitude towards Chloe seems to be that of a surrogate father, albeit a distant one.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 10:42 AM
Yes, Rush is certainly a hypocrite and I think that blaring fact, particularly in his willingness to sacrifice other lives rather than his own, really says something about SGU as a whole. This complete inconsistency within the character, where he can say one thing in a certain situation and another when in danger, speaks to the fact that the characters in SGU are a whole lot more human and far more fallible than the ever-faithful Daniel Jackson and morally upright O'Neill
Wait... this makes him a hypocrite how? He's simply saying that for the greater good, sacrifices needs to be made. But he views himself as far too valuable for the expedition to act as a sacrifice when someone else, much more expendable, can be sacrificed.

Or, in this case, that the expedition would be doomed without him if they'd throw him out of an airlock. After all, he came up with that plan that saved them.

Jper
April 12th, 2010, 11:05 AM
This is true. But Rush's so called beliefs would say that the situation shouldn't even occur because his lose is for the greater good of the crew. I am not entirely sure what you're saying here.

Anyway, jel tbh it sounds to me like you're saying Rush is acting different now than let's say he was acting in Air? No? Yes?

I personally see no difference. Compare this with the scene in Air where they are debating the fact that someone needs to sacrifice him or her self to close the shuttle door and save them. Even then he says that as humans all people on board are equally in value, but still he debates choosing and he says to Chloe that her dad wouldn't have been his choice...



The coup has nothing nothing to do with this scenario. We are talking about the threat Rush is with the aliens able to track him.

On the contrary, it has everything to do with it. Hear me out:

As I see it, in the episode Divided, for Rush the main, or most important problem is Young and the military. The aliens take a backseat for Rush in their problem list. This was very clear at the end of Space. :) So I think it"s only logical then that the removing the tracking device which is linked to the second most important problem, the blue Space aliens, is overruled by the fact that Rush is needed to help pull of the coup successfully. :)

You are after all taking the "tracking device" as the counter argument to say that Rush would possibly a hypocrite. Without it there's not much to go on, I think.



Opposed to the very real possibility that Destiny could have blown up in Divided. He got lucky that they jumped in FTL in time. Obviously for plot purposes we knew that was going to happen but suspending disbelif its seems like too big of a gamble.

No, it's very much possible that Rush estimated or calculated the energy requirements and went over the data Destiny collected on previous encounters to conclude that shielding the ship and not firing was their best option. That the shield would indeed protect them. Or that this was their best option, even though it would be very close. That's also why he needed Eli, to help him provide all the necessary energy for the shield. It sounded to me as if he made the best calculated decision. I do not agree that it was a gamble. I do not think Rush does such things. All his actions always see somewhat to completely thought. It seems to me you're underestimating him. He thought far ahead, and even ensured that Young wouldn't be able to fire the weapon, or anyone else.



But according to his so called beliefs about considering the greater good of the crew he should have done something about the tracking device regardless of the power status

That's not true. It depends on what is the greater danger for the greater good, the alien situation which he could control or the control/power play which he couldn't anything about without the coup and participating with Wray. I think Rush acted completely according to his beliefs as he showed them to us in the previous episode.

The problem I think is that those beliefs weren't as morally clear or straightforward as you seem to think they are. His beliefs have always been this ambiguous. This is not a very simple philosophy.

jelgate
April 12th, 2010, 12:16 PM
That doesn't make much sense. Rush wanted his own people in charge before revealing that he was tagged. He was rightfully afraid that the military would simply kill him. He sees himself as too valuable to the survival of the Destiny. No other scientist can cope. He is not a coward. He was perfectly willing to go down with the ship when they thought it would burn up in the sun and I really don't think he knew.
The coup really has no relvence to this. I'm talking about the risk his tracking device poses to the fate of the whole Destiny and how Rush's actions to said risk contradict his greater good beliefs. Nor am I calling him a coward. Their is no information to prove or disprove that.


Maybe I'm a romantic but I see Rush as a tragic character in the show. He made an enormous mistake and stranded all those people on the ship. He's there to take their anger and try to find a way back for them and part of his will to survive is for me the will to fix his mistake and get those people home. He will do anything for that goal.
I agree he will do anything to get his goal. But I wonder what goal is more important? Getting home or exploring Destiny?


However, I don't think this indicates a lack of caring in Rush for his fellow teammates or genuine feelings. He's simply a human who wants to survive, no matter what, and while this lack of willingness to sacrifice oneself when push comes to shove is less admirable, it reflects humanity alot more accurately. I get a vibe that he does indeed respect and care for certain people, namely Eli and Chloe. In the case of Eli, it is more of annoyed big brother feeling, he certainly respects him but Eli's apparent immaturity (some would say innocence) annoys the realistic Rush. With Chloe, even as early as Air, Part 2 when his actions caused the death of her father, he seems to be slightly regretful and protective. Unlike some, I don't think he was lying when he said he was sorry her father died, and his general attitude towards Chloe seems to be that of a surrogate father, albeit a distant one.Oh I never met to make a claim that he is an uncaring person. Thier is nothing to prove that. He is just rather blunt with the truth



Anyway, jel tbh it sounds to me like you're saying Rush is acting different now than let's say he was acting in Air? No? Yes?

Not really. In fact both episodes bring up a contradiction of his greater good philosphy. It was not for the greater good to strand 80 people on the Destiny just like letting the aliens track him was definatly not for the greater good of the crew.


I personally see no difference. Compare this with the scene in Air where they are debating the fact that someone needs to sacrifice him or her self to close the shuttle door and save them. Even then he says that as humans all people on board are equally in value, but still he debates choosing and he says to Chloe that her dad wouldn't have been his choice...
But he was perfectly fine with letting a person to sacrifice their life for the sake of the crew. However when its the sacrifice of his life that can save the crew. He seems hesistant to follow his philosphy.




As I see it, in the episode Divided, for Rush the main, or most important problem is Young and the military. The aliens take a backseat for Rush in their problem list. This was very clear at the end of Space. :) So I think it"s only logical then that the removing the tracking device which is linked to the second most important problem, the blue Space aliens, is overruled by the fact that Rush is needed to help pull of the coup successfully. :)

That makes no sense. The military is a hardship for the Destiny crew. The aliens mean a very realastic death



You are after all taking the "tracking device" as the counter argument to say that Rush would possibly a hypocrite. Without it there's not much to go on, I think.

Most likley because their hasn't really been a time where Rush has posed a significant risk to the Destiny as an external problem. We could argue internally with the backstabbing but that seems to be a way of life on the Destiny. No one trusts anyone.



No, it's very much possible that Rush estimated or calculated the energy requirements and went over the data Destiny collected on previous encounters to conclude that shielding the ship and not firing was their best option. That the shield would indeed protect them. Or that this was their best option, even though it would be very close. That's also why he needed Eli, to help him provide all the necessary energy for the shield. It sounded to me as if he made the best calculated decision. I do not agree that it was a gamble. I do not think Rush does such things. All his actions always see somewhat to completely thought. It seems to me you're underestimating him. He thought far ahead, and even ensured that Young wouldn't be able to fire the weapon, or anyone else.

No one is arguing that shields was a smarter move then firing at the ship. It was indeed a gamble. Rush had no way of knowing we he pumped energy into the shields how many ships the aliens would bring and what kind of firepower they would bring. Given the shields almost collapsed they got lucky. A situation that never would occur if Rush faithfully followed his greater good philosphy.



That's not true. It depends on what is the greater danger for the greater good, the alien situation which he could control or the control/power play which he couldn't anything about without the coup and participating with Wray. I think Rush acted completely according to his beliefs as he showed them to us in the previous episode.

I addressed above in that saving the whole Destiny is defiantly more important that ensuring the civilians get their power


The problem I think is that those beliefs weren't as morally clear or straightforward as you seem to think they are. His beliefs have always been this ambiguous. This is not a very simple philosophy.
I am not arguing that Rush is ambigious in his morals just that he didn't follow his greater good philosphy since I think the the whole crew surviving the alien attack is more important

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 12:18 PM
I am not arguing that Rush is ambigious in his morals just that he didn't follow his greater good philosphy since I think the the whole crew surviving the alien attack is more important
But they did survive the attack due to his plan? And if he had been thrown out an airlock, they'd be helpless the next time a crisis arises that Eli can't handle.

Jper
April 12th, 2010, 12:42 PM
Not really. In fact both episodes bring up a contradiction of his greater good philosphy. It was not for the greater good to strand 80 people on the Destiny just like letting the aliens track him was definatly not for the greater good of the crew.

Well, then I think you're not getting Rush his philosophy. No offense intended, but you're idealizing Rush his beliefs or philosophy to make it sound then like he's a hypocrite. Sure Rush is for the greater good, but he also values the contributions people can make to their survival. It's not as simple to say person X = threat to the greater good, get rid of person X. For Rush it was never like that, and he eloquently put this in words in Air. The very beginning and acquaintance with Rush. :)



But he was perfectly fine with letting a person to sacrifice their life for the sake of the crew. However when its the sacrifice of his life that can save the crew. He seems hesistant to follow his philosphy.

No he wasn't perfectly fine with letting someone sacrifice his or her life. He values each human life, but still made a speech to choose someone. To make a list with people's talents, knowledge etc. This is very very important.



That makes no sense. The military is a hardship for the Destiny crew. The aliens mean a very realistic death.

I disagree. It makes all the sense of the world, and the military is much more than a hardship, and the aliens do not mean a realistic death. For one, the aliens haven't killed anyone, on the contrary, Rush killed an alien. Also, their encounter with the aliens did not result in their death, thanks to Rush his actions. Young on the other hand has already tried to kill Rush and I already explained how for Rush the military rule over Destiny equals a bigger problem towards survival than the aliens. Rush knows how to handle the aliens. The military rule has endangered the greater good for Rush more than the aliens. It's no point for Rush to fight for Destiny's survival if he has the constant threat from certain people already on board as opposed to the aliens who have never been on board before.



Most likley because their hasn't really been a time where Rush has posed a significant risk to the Destiny as an external problem. We could argue internally with the backstabbing but that seems to be a way of life on the Destiny. No one trusts anyone.

Which only supports my point that this whole argument is only based upon that one event that is on unstable grounds to begin with.



No one is arguing that shields was a smarter move then firing at the ship. It was indeed a gamble. Rush had no way of knowing we he pumped energy into the shields how many ships the aliens would bring and what kind of firepower they would bring. Given the shields almost collapsed they got lucky. A situation that never would occur if Rush faithfully followed his greater good philosphy.

Again, Rush could perfectly have estimated or calculated this. He had all the data from the previous attacks. I hardly think the aliens would suddenly change this strategy. Rush said that they did it before. Rush is quite adequate at extracting info from Destiny's log once he knows what he's looking for. Besides Rush was removed the console forcefully by the military, at the end, you don't know if Rush hadn't another solution or could have diverted power from somewhere else to the shields. Eli was in way over his head again. Which only illustrates my point further how the inside situation was a bigger problem than the aliens tracking Rush. And don't forget that they were tracking the Destiny the entire period that the other shuttle was attached to the hull. So since all these events took place in Destiny and Young on the outside proved to be the perfect moment for the start of the coup, the coup took precedent over the tracking device. This IS Rush his philosophy.

I still say that for Rush and his philosophy the current inside situation was a bigger problem than the aliens. The aliens who have never succeeded to breach Destiny's defenses unless Destiny was hindered by the people on board as proven by the abduction of Chloe after they Lt. James cut the power.




I addressed above in that saving the whole Destiny is defiantly more important that ensuring the civilians get their power

But Rush and his philosophy would disagree.



I am not arguing that Rush is ambigious in his morals just that he didn't follow his greater good philosphy since I think the the whole crew surviving the alien attack is more important

And he made sure they did survive, not only the attack, but he also tried to ensure his own survival as to the let the others and the greater good benefit from that. Rush is convinced that the military rule is not good for the greater good, you cannot deny this and there are enough arguments that could be made to say that in the moments we say that was actually more important for Rush and his philosophy than the aliens...

ziga1980
April 12th, 2010, 02:34 PM
One concept we have seen Rush strongly believe in is "the greater good." He on a few occasions has said its okay to sacrifice human lives (among other things) if it benefits the overall group. But in Divided the tracking device was a serious problem for the Destiny in that Rush's presence severly puts danger and risk the Destiny. Does not Rush's concept of the greater good makes his death more benefical for the Destiny then him being alive. While I personally don't blame him for wanting to stay alive does not make Rush a hypocrite of his moral beliefs?


actually no. if his expertise are crucial for the survival of the whole expedition then no his death is most certainly not beneficial. but yeah he's a hypocrite. and a selfish *******.

Lehane
April 12th, 2010, 03:08 PM
Not really. With the communication stones any Ancient Technology experts came be brought in to help with problems and/or figuring out the ship. One of my biggest complaints have been the fact that various civilians haven't been swapping bodies with people like Carter, McKay, Dr. Lee, Zelenka, etc. I understand it is a TV show and they have to establish their characters for this show for that purpose, but honestly As long as they have the stones Rush is replaceable.

DrNicholasRush
April 12th, 2010, 05:33 PM
Wait... this makes him a hypocrite how? He's simply saying that for the greater good, sacrifices needs to be made. But he views himself as far too valuable for the expedition to act as a sacrifice when someone else, much more expendable, can be sacrificed.

I don't think it's as clean-cut as that. We're operating on the assumption that, like most TV characters, these ones are both internally consistent and rational. I don't think the "greater good" operates into a large portion of his decisions regarding his own life, but a drive to survive. This makes him a hypocrite, due to his lack of internal consistency when dealing with a situation, telling Wray to "always act with the greater good" and then not considering that option because his own life is on the line. It is a matter of opinion.

mjwalshe
April 12th, 2010, 05:39 PM
well he certainly displays a lot of sociopathic tendancies he might well be able to rationalise his behaviors

natyanayaki
April 12th, 2010, 07:40 PM
Is Rush a hypocrite? OF COURSE! But, how many humans are never hypocritical. It's a common human characteristic, perhaps a universal human characteristic. Having said that, I'm not so sure that his actions were necessarily hypocritical in this particular instance for reasons already stated by Jper, I think both conclusions can be made depending upon our individual perspective.



Not really. With the communication stones any Ancient Technology experts came be brought in to help with problems and/or figuring out the ship. One of my biggest complaints have been the fact that various civilians haven't been swapping bodies with people like Carter, McKay, Dr. Lee, Zelenka, etc. I understand it is a TV show and they have to establish their characters for this show for that purpose, but honestly As long as they have the stones Rush is replaceable.

But Rush isn't totally replaceable. The difference is, hypothetically if Rush risks the life of the entire ship in attempt to jump close to Earth, he is also risking his own life, any of the scientists you have mentioned could easily just unplug the stones and be safe, as demonstrated on "Earth." So Rush's expertise may be replaceable, but it's not the same to "stone in" an expert, as it is having an expert.

nx01a
April 12th, 2010, 07:45 PM
Of course he's a hypocrite.
I'm just amused that he went blabbing about the thing in his chest to other people, especially when he thought the equipment and personnel on Destiny weren't up to taking it out of him.
Not only is he a hypocrite, he's a stupid hypocrite.

Daro
April 12th, 2010, 07:55 PM
Of course he's a hypocrite.
I'm just amused that he went blabbing about the thing in his chest to other people, especially when he thought the equipment and personnel on Destiny weren't up to taking it out of him.
Not only is he a hypocrite, he's a stupid hypocrite.

That was highly uncharactaristic of the Rush we've seen so far. To confide in Chloe, considering their new and apparently somewhat close friendship, is one thing. To tell Eli, who cannot keep a secret, is just begging for trouble.

His openness about the implant can be viewed in two ways. One, that he's suffering a lot of fear and anxiety over his ordeal and he's just not the same guy he was before "Justice." He can't play it cool as much anymore.

Second, it was a bid for sympathy. Most people would feel sorry for what happened to him, whether or not his own actions put him in the predicament that led to his capture.

My bet would be a little bit of both.

nx01a
April 12th, 2010, 08:00 PM
Remember he told Wray, too. ;) Stool pidgeon!
Sorry for him, yes. Leave him on another planet? Sure. I don't doubt Wray would do it, either. :D

My money's still on stupid. Rush should have redoubled his efforts to gain control of ship systems [infirmary, anyone? ;)] while using the aliens' repeated attacks [which he knew how to repel by simply leaving the shields on to max] to distract the others from his plans. Of course, they'd eventually begin to suspect that Rush and Chloe of somehow being involved after the ship on the hull was destroyed... but Rush would have bought hiimself some time to try and fix himself... himself.

Daro
April 12th, 2010, 08:14 PM
Yeah, he told Wray. But remember her response, before she realized Col. Young was sneaking up to kick their butts? She asked him, with disbelief in her voice, if he thought Young would have shoved him out an airlock. Which kinda indicates to me that she herself wouldn't pull that kind of crap lightly.

I'd like to think I'd never leave another human being the way Young left Rush. That said, I've never been framed for murder by a surly, smart-alec scientist who then has the gall to say he did it for the good of others.

Wray, leave someone to die? I'm not sure. Most of us SGU fans have decided that she's totally ruthless, but I'm not sure that's true now. Just because she is vocal and capable of leading others doesn't mean she's cold enough to abandon someone to their death. I think she's gotten a bad rap so far. No one mentions how she cried in "Light" after being picked, how she has shown concern for people who are injured or lost along the way, and how she quickly assisted TJ in "Space" with treating the wounded. She could be doing it all to garner sympathy, but I doubt it. She's got an agenda, sure. So does everyone else, just about. I'm not accusing anyone here of sexism, but I wonder how different the views on her would be if a man were in the role?

nx01a
April 12th, 2010, 08:21 PM
I don't think she'd just leave him to die, but I think, if they couldn't get someone from Earth and couldn't realistically get the tracker out, she'd put him off at the first habitable planet they could find with as many supplies as possible, much like the situation in Light.

If Wray were a man, she'd be Kinsey. :D
OK. Sorry. She's nowhere near that bad. :D

Daro
April 12th, 2010, 08:25 PM
Lol, hehe.

And yeah, if they couldn't get the tracker out, I'm sure she would. Hell, I can't imagine any other way to deal with it. Rush's "No no, they'll see we have awesome shields and then abandon their obsession!" plan certainly wouldn't have gone anywhere. :P

Coronach
April 12th, 2010, 08:36 PM
One concept we have seen Rush strongly believe in is "the greater good." He on a few occasions has said its okay to sacrifice human lives (among other things) if it benefits the overall group. But in Divided the tracking device was a serious problem for the Destiny in that Rush's presence severly puts danger and risk the Destiny. Does not Rush's concept of the greater good makes his death more benefical for the Destiny then him being alive. While I personally don't blame him for wanting to stay alive does not make Rush a hypocrite of his moral beliefs?

Maybe, but I'm not sure. I remember in "Air" (part 2, I believe), Rush was not about just sacrificing any old person in order to save everyone aboard the ship. He was pretty specific in that he wanted to find someone who didn't have any "valuable" skills to bring to the table for survival aboard the ship (i.e. someone expendable).

And, of course, it's the case that not only does Rush view himself as valuable, but so does pretty much everyone else aboard the Destiny. Like him or not, anyone that's actually thinking rationally realizes Rush's importance for survival...at least at this point.

In this way, I don't think Rush was necessarily being hypocritical because he recognized his own value to the crew's survival. Is there a part of him that just wanted to stay alive? Absolutely. However, I think he could make a good case (at least using his criteria) for why he should not be sacrificed in this situation.

Note: I do not necessarily agree with Rush's view of "the greater good", nor do I endorse any idea of someone as being "expendable".

Daro
April 12th, 2010, 09:19 PM
I agree, except that in "Air," I think they could have taped a pencil to a kino and gotten the stupid button pushed.

I don't think Rush normally thinks of people as expendable, but in a survival situation, that kind of utilitarian thinking is not only normal, but usually vital. Remember what he said to Chloe: "As human beings, all of them were invaluable."

Avenger
April 12th, 2010, 09:30 PM
I'd say Rush is not a hypocrite because he generally does what he says he'll do. He never preaches his beliefs to anyone cause he keeps to himself. And he doesn't give a false representation to anyone with regard to his moral beliefs. He's a straight shooter, you know where he stands. He doesn't go don't eat this, then secretly eats it himself does he? Or don't touch that, and secretly touches it himself.

Straight shooters don't frame people they don't like for murder. They confront them. Straight shooters aren't manipulative.

jelgate
April 12th, 2010, 09:41 PM
Well, then I think you're not getting Rush his philosophy. No offense intended, but you're idealizing Rush his beliefs or philosophy to make it sound then like he's a hypocrite. Sure Rush is for the greater good, but he also values the contributions people can make to their survival. It's not as simple to say person X = threat to the greater good, get rid of person X. For Rush it was never like that, and he eloquently put this in words in Air. The very beginning and acquaintance with Rush. :)
You should probably leave your opinions about me out of it. It can get dangerously close to personal insults and attacks. Rush concept of the greater good is quite simple (if not a little cold) in that we should consider the needs of the overall crew are greater then the needs of indvidual. In instances like Air its okay to sacrifice a person's life because it will help the whole group of Destiiny. He has said many times that it is okay to sacrifice lives if it is for the benefit of the Destiny. Its okay when others lives at risk but in Divided we see he can't portray this ideal when its his life


No he wasn't perfectly fine with letting someone sacrifice his or her life. He values each human life, but still made a speech to choose someone. To make a list with people's talents, knowledge etc. This is very very important.

I didn't mean to imply that he was cold and unfeeling that someone's life was meaningless for the sacrifice. Just that he was willingly to let someone to die for the security and safety of the Destiny but can't do it when its his turn



I disagree. It makes all the sense of the world, and the military is much more than a hardship, and the aliens do not mean a realistic death. For one, the aliens haven't killed anyone, on the contrary, Rush killed an alien. Also, their encounter with the aliens did not result in their death, thanks to Rush his actions. Young on the other hand has already tried to kill Rush and I already explained how for Rush the military rule over Destiny equals a bigger problem towards survival than the aliens. Rush knows how to handle the aliens. The military rule has endangered the greater good for Rush more than the aliens. It's no point for Rush to fight for Destiny's survival if he has the constant threat from certain people already on board as opposed to the aliens who have never been on board before.
That is insane. The aliens very well posed a very possibility of the ship blowing up. Despite what Rush did unless he knows what every alien is doing and the every weapon the aliens he has Rush can not be certain of how much damange the aliens would do the Destiny. I don't deny that he probably calculated the risk but when you deal with sentinent lifeforms calculations only go so far in what they will do. Thier was a very real possibility the aliens could have blown up the Destiny. And very little can convince me the "supposed" opression of the civilians is worse then the Destiny blowing up.



Which only supports my point that this whole argument is only based upon that one event that is on unstable grounds to begin with.

That is certainly you right but I definatly disagree with it given how often Rush preaches about the greater good



Again, Rush could perfectly have estimated or calculated this. He had all the data from the previous attacks. I hardly think the aliens would suddenly change this strategy. Rush said that they did it before. Rush is quite adequate at extracting info from Destiny's log once he knows what he's looking for. Besides Rush was removed the console forcefully by the military, at the end, you don't know if Rush hadn't another solution or could have diverted power from somewhere else to the shields. Eli was in way over his head again. Which only illustrates my point further how the inside situation was a bigger problem than the aliens tracking Rush. And don't forget that they were tracking the Destiny the entire period that the other shuttle was attached to the hull. So since all these events took place in Destiny and Young on the outside proved to be the perfect moment for the start of the coup, the coup took precedent over the tracking device. This IS Rush his philosophy.

I still say that for Rush and his philosophy the current inside situation was a bigger problem than the aliens. The aliens who have never succeeded to breach Destiny's defenses unless Destiny was hindered by the people on board as proven by the abduction of Chloe after they Lt. James cut the power.

Like I said calculations only go far. Any strategist will tell you data about past engagements only go so fair as just like you can calculate so can you opponent. We can analyze data about the best course of action but then again so can the aliens making such a move a highly calculated. Regardless of what plans Rush may have thier was still a risk of the ship blowing up. A risk that would not have to be presented if Rush was truthful about his greater good philosphy.

And you can't 100% say for certainity. Its a very really probablity. The elements of our crew being on the Destiny and our use of power consumption completely changes the defenses of the Destiny. So once again the aliens breeching Destiny is very real.



But Rush and his philosophy would disagree.


No its not. Or to put it more tactfully your counterarguments have done nothing sway me of Rush being a hypocrite



And he made sure they did survive, not only the attack, but he also tried to ensure his own survival as to the let the others and the greater good benefit from that. Rush is convinced that the military rule is not good for the greater good, you cannot deny this and there are enough arguments that could be made to say that in the moments we say that was actually more important for Rush and his philosophy than the aliens...
No I will not deny that Rush thinks the military rule is the a crutch on the Destiny. I'm just denying that the military oppression was worse then the aliens. One is some is discomfort while the others is probable death. I think probable death is worse


Maybe, but I'm not sure. I remember in "Air" (part 2, I believe), Rush was not about just sacrificing any old person in order to save everyone aboard the ship. He was pretty specific in that he wanted to find someone who didn't have any "valuable" skills to bring to the table for survival aboard the ship (i.e. someone expendable).

I was never suggesting he put the sacrifice at random just that he believes a sacrifice is accpeatable to save others


And, of course, it's the case that not only does Rush view himself as valuable, but so does pretty much everyone else aboard the Destiny. Like him or not, anyone that's actually thinking rationally realizes Rush's importance for survival...at least at this point.

In this way, I don't think Rush was necessarily being hypocritical because he recognized his own value to the crew's survival. Is there a part of him that just wanted to stay alive? Absolutely. However, I think he could make a good case (at least using his criteria) for why he should not be sacrificed in this situation.
No one is arguing that Rush iisn't valuable. I think Rush's value expertise and value quite apparent. But to me it seems the risk he and his tracking device pose a much higher risk then the value he contains. After all he could have been the reason for blowing up the Destiny

Coronach
April 12th, 2010, 11:52 PM
I was never suggesting he put the sacrifice at random just that he believes a sacrifice is accpeatable to save others

I never thought you were suggesting this, I was just clarifying my stance. :S


No one is arguing that Rush iisn't valuable. I think Rush's value expertise and value quite apparent. But to me it seems the risk he and his tracking device pose a much higher risk then the value he contains. After all he could have been the reason for blowing up the Destiny

Well this is where we're going to differ then. I don't think it makes Rush a hypocrite for two reasons:

1) I don't think such a risk outweighs the benefit Rush brings the crew of the Destiny with his knowledge. However, more important is number two.

2) Rush's death was not a necessary condition in order to remedy the situation of the tracker implanted in him. As evidenced by the end of "Divided", a surgery could be performed to remove the tracker which left the substantial possibility that Rush would live. Therefore, Rush wanting the chance to live (i.e. a surgery) versus being sacrificed (i.e. airlocked...or something more immediate) in such a case doesn't make him (imo, of course) a hypocrite, as it's consistent with the way he views this "greater good" concept.

Granted, I'm not sure Rush would ever consider his own death a necessary sacrifice...so you may have a point in a future event, who knows? :cool:

FallenAngelII
April 13th, 2010, 12:14 AM
Remember he told Wray, too. ;)
He only did that once the enemy had begun their attack and Wray was wondering how they knew how to find them.


Straight shooters don't frame people they don't like for murder. They confront them. Straight shooters aren't manipulative.
Hey, he thought Young was dangerous. Young's response was to actually (attempt to) commit murder. I guess Rush was right.

nx01a
April 13th, 2010, 12:22 AM
He only did that once the enemy had begun their attack and Wray was wondering how they knew how to find them.
Hey, he thought Young was dangerous. Young's response was to actually (attempt to) commit murder. I guess Rush was right.Rush really could have waited for a more opportune moment to tell her. :)
And Rush waited for an opportune moment to 'transfer systems', an action that almost killed Young [and Scott]. I doubt that was coincidental. Just another example of Rush and Young trying to get rid of each other.

FallenAngelII
April 13th, 2010, 12:44 AM
And Rush waited for an opportune moment to 'transfer systems', an action that almost killed Young [and Scott]. I doubt that was coincidental. Just another example of Rush and Young trying to get rid of each other.
It was accidental. Everything in the episode tells us that it was accidental.

nx01a
April 13th, 2010, 12:51 AM
That's not what everything in the episode says to me. ;) Rush picked a time where Young [and Scott] and Eli would be otherwise occupied and went in for the kill, aka getting control. That the transfer would also keep the shuttle from docking again before the ship went to FTL... Icing on the cake. Neither Wray nor Chloe expected it to happen so soon, right? Rush saw an opportunity to kill two birds with one Destiny and took it all by himself, without consultation with his fellow conspirator.
Well, that's how it looked to me. :)

Artemis-Neith
April 13th, 2010, 12:58 AM
Rush really could have waited for a more opportune moment to tell her. :)
And Rush waited for an opportune moment to 'transfer systems', an action that almost killed Young [and Scott]. I doubt that was coincidental. Just another example of Rush and Young trying to get rid of each other.

I doubt that Rush wants to kill Young and Scott, he looked very surprised when Chloe comes to him, shouting to stop whatever he's doing, cos of the danger Young and Scott's in. Then Rush contacted directly Eli not to disturb the download, so that he could accomplish it in time, and after that add the docking clamps manually. He just don't want to stop the dl immediatly, cos he was not about to give in in that very moment, at least accordingly to what he explained to those around him.

escyos
April 13th, 2010, 01:24 AM
I thought it said "Is Rush a Hippogriff?"

man that convo would have been confusing

nx01a
April 13th, 2010, 01:45 AM
I doubt that Rush wants to kill Young and Scott, he looked very surprised when Chloe comes to him, shouting to stop whatever he's doing, cos of the danger Young and Scott's in. Then Rush contacted directly Eli not to disturb the download, so that he could accomplish it in time, and after that add the docking clamps manually. He just don't want to stop the dl immediatly, cos he was not about to give in in that very moment, at least accordingly to what he explained to those around him.I think it's meant to be interpreted many ways, just like Young's comment in ordering Eli to keep firing in 'Space'. I just happen to interpret it this way. :D

FallenAngelII
April 13th, 2010, 02:41 AM
That's not what everything in the episode says to me. ;) Rush picked a time where Young [and Scott] and Eli would be otherwise occupied and went in for the kill, aka getting control. That the transfer would also keep the shuttle from docking again before the ship went to FTL... Icing on the cake. Neither Wray nor Chloe expected it to happen so soon, right? Rush saw an opportunity to kill two birds with one Destiny and took it all by himself, without consultation with his fellow conspirator.
Well, that's how it looked to me. :)
If he wanted to kill Young, he knows of better way to do it, ways that won't implicate him. You can go on assuming Rush is some kind of murderous monster who kills and hurts people without good reason, that'll be your problem.


I think it's meant to be interpreted many ways, just like Young's comment in ordering Eli to keep firing in 'Space'. I just happen to interpret it this way. :D
Let me guess, you interpreted it to mean that Young wasn't just trying to cover his behind? That he risked blowing up all of Destiny because he really thought it would be for the best of the crew to kill off that one enemy ship while it was retreating, even at the risk of overloading the weapons and killing everyone on-board?

Jper
April 13th, 2010, 03:09 AM
Not really. With the communication stones any Ancient Technology experts came be brought in to help with problems and/or figuring out the ship. One of my biggest complaints have been the fact that various civilians haven't been swapping bodies with people like Carter, McKay, Dr. Lee, Zelenka, etc. I understand it is a TV show and they have to establish their characters for this show for that purpose, but honestly As long as they have the stones Rush is replaceable.

I disagree. The communication stones are more trouble then they are worth. As proven by the incident in the latest episode, Divided, this is not a solution. The connection was just suddenly lost. Huge problem!

Also, you've ever considered that Carter, McKay, Zelenka etc. might be busy? And I really want SGU to stand on its own legs, not have magical solutions again like on SGA by the introduction of McKay for example.


You should probably leave your opinions about me out of it. It can get dangerously close to personal insults and attacks.

You're right. Absolutely. It was not intended to be like that, as you know. ;) I was more trying to say that what you see might not be there for Rush or for me. :)

It seems to me like you're idealizing Rush his philosophy (and that's not an offense), while it is in fact far from ideal (or that's what I think). I think we disagree on his philosophy to begin with... and that's why one person might say Rush is hypocritical (as in he doesn't follow his own theory) while another might say he's not. And that would have nothing to do with all his actions in previous episode, but just our interpretations of his theory, philosophy. Personally I believe that most of what we've seen indicates another, more complex theory and philosophy than what you mention in your first post. :)

So, while I don't want to attack or insult you, I do want to point out that this discussion is kinda hard if we don't agree on what his philosophy actual is or how his actions should be interpreted to make sense in that context.



Rush concept of the greater good is quite simple (if not a little cold) in that we should consider the needs of the overall crew are greater then the needs of indvidual. In instances like Air its okay to sacrifice a person's life because it will help the whole group of Destiiny. He has said many times that it is okay to sacrifice lives if it is for the benefit of the Destiny. Its okay when others lives at risk but in Divided we see he can't portray this ideal when its his life.

See, this is where I think you're simplifying it too much. This is not supposed to be a disrespect, but IMHO you need include not only what you said above, but also what Rush seems to believe about the value of talents, knowdledge, etc. of people and the implications of that on the greater good. He thinks it's okay to sacrifice a life, but it isn't a random pick. The sacrifice of this life cannot be worse for the greater good, than the benefit it will accomplish.


That is insane. The aliens very well posed a very possibility of the ship blowing up. Despite what Rush did unless he knows what every alien is doing and the every weapon the aliens he has Rush can not be certain of how much damange the aliens would do the Destiny. I don't deny that he probably calculated the risk but when you deal with sentinent lifeforms calculations only go so far in what they will do. Thier was a very real possibility the aliens could have blown up the Destiny. And very little can convince me the "supposed" opression of the civilians is worse then the Destiny blowing up.

I'm not saying that Rush is right or wrong, what I am saying is that Rush believes he is right (of course), and that he might believe this. So while for us this might indeed seem insane, in Rush his mind this might not be. :) This is hardly the first time we've seen reasoning like this from Rush... I'm not trying to convince you that it is worse, however, I'm suggesting to look at it from Rush's POV.



Like I said calculations only go far. Any strategist will tell you data about past engagements only go so fair as just like you can calculate so can you opponent. We can analyze data about the best course of action but then again so can the aliens making such a move a highly calculated. Regardless of what plans Rush may have thier was still a risk of the ship blowing up. A risk that would not have to be presented if Rush was truthful about his greater good philosphy.

You can't know that. And Destiny wouldn't have exploded. The shield would have collapsed, and they would have been over run by the aliens. I find it highly, very, hugely... unlikely that the aliens would suddenly have wanted to destroy or blow up the Destiny. On the contrary they are only firing on the ship to weaken the shield to be able to board the ship. Not that it matters really that much. :S



And you can't 100% say for certainity. Its a very really probablity. The elements of our crew being on the Destiny and our use of power consumption completely changes the defenses of the Destiny. So once again the aliens breeching Destiny is very real.

Yeah, but nor can you say for 100% certainty... :) ;) And that's were the problem lies. It all depends on interpretation and the value one attaches to certain elements. And while I might actually agree with you, I'm trying to suggest that Rush might disagree with us. :) That he finds other elements to be more important, and that fits perfectly in his greater good theory, and leads to the events as we saw them in Divided. :)

ladypredator
April 13th, 2010, 11:02 AM
Hey, he thought Young was dangerous. Young's response was to actually (attempt to) commit murder. I guess Rush was right.

Very good point. Rush acts as he does in Justice because he believes that Young is a dangerous, incompetent liability -- and what does Young go and do? He proves that Rush was right in the first place.

Having re-watched "Divided" several times now, I'm struck by Rush's tone of voice when he relays Camile's demands to Young over the radio. He sounds outright bored when he rattles them off and the argument behind them. He has no real interest in Camile's plot. All that matters to him is preventing Young from making another of his collossal mistakes when the aliens attack again and buying time to figure out how to deal with the tracker in his chest. Rush has every reason to suspect that Young will not consider Rush's wellbeing or survival when it comes down to the tracker and Young proves him right, trying to force an extremely unqualified TJ to attempt major surgery without the proper equipment or facilities. It's amazing Rush survived that. And how horrible for him to wake up in the middle of surgery because they don't have a proper anesthetic. That's a nightmare. I can't blame the man for being terrified of that. They've made horror movies about things like that.

Anyway, being scared of someone who's already tried to murder you at least once and trying to get that person out of a position of power is hardly hypocritical behavior. It's straight out human and believable. I'd certainly have felt the same way.

beafly
April 13th, 2010, 11:09 AM
Rush is not their greatest asset.

The stones are.

Jper
April 13th, 2010, 11:29 AM
Rush is not their greatest asset.

The stones are.

No, that's not true. The stones are way too unreliable.

nx01a
April 13th, 2010, 11:36 AM
If he wanted to kill Young, he knows of better way to do it, ways that won't implicate him. You can go on assuming Rush is some kind of murderous monster who kills and hurts people without good reason, that'll be your problem.
Let me guess, you interpreted it to mean that Young wasn't just trying to cover his behind? That he risked blowing up all of Destiny because he really thought it would be for the best of the crew to kill off that one enemy ship while it was retreating, even at the risk of overloading the weapons and killing everyone on-board?Well... Er. I guess it IS my 'problem'. :S
I am not in anyone's camp. I find Rush, Young and Wray equally dangerous in their positions and actions, and I don't think either one should be in control. Young will kill you out of anger; Wray will kill you out of negligence; Rush will let you kill yourself 'for the/his greater good'.

beafly
April 13th, 2010, 12:51 PM
No, that's not true. The stones are way too unreliable.

Hmmm... ponder Rush's reliability for a moment.

Daro
April 13th, 2010, 02:43 PM
Hmmm... ponder Rush's reliability for a moment.

Rush is very reliable. He can be relied upon to do everything in his power to save the Destiny from trouble, and its crew along with it if at all possible. I can't make much of an argument beyond that because we simply don't know how far he's going to go to try and protect human life yet.

Rush can't be relied on to let someone else tell him what to do and how to do it. He's rebellious and independent, and doesn't care much for what anyone but Eli might have to say. Perhaps that'll be the point where he really screws up. Volker or Brody will be right about something someday, Rush will assume as always that he's ten times smarter than them, and he'll be dead wrong. I'd like to see that eventually.

Lehane
April 13th, 2010, 05:41 PM
I disagree. The communication stones are more trouble then they are worth. As proven by the incident in the latest episode, Divided, this is not a solution. The connection was just suddenly lost. Huge problem!

Also, you've ever considered that Carter, McKay, Zelenka etc. might be busy? And I really want SGU to stand on its own legs, not have magical solutions again like on SGA by the introduction of McKay for example.


The Stones didn't start having issues until recently. And the most recent issue might have had something to do with Young's theory that Rush hid one of the stones and the Aliens got their hands on it.

I did say that from a TV show stand point they needed to establish their own characters. And I would imagine m aking the stones unreliable is one way of preventing the expectation that Carter/Mckay can come to the rescue.

My complaint with the earlier episodes involving the stones is when they were scheduling vacations why were generic enlisted personell used on Earth's end? If you are scheduling this stuff, they why not have people with the brain power needed to be of use of the ship while the stranded people are getting back to earth? It isn't like you aren't expecting this to be happening. And it isn't like they don't have scientists aplenty.

Also don't everyone forget that Rush got permission from Young to sit in that chair himself and promply chickened out. The whole framing Young for murder was a way of removing the guard that Young had placed at the chair room to prevent the very thing Rush engineered by scheduling work shifts with people unsupervised to tempt one of them to sit in the chair. And he played Wray like a fiddle to get it done.

Young should have simply played the video of Rush removing the gun from the suicide and pointed out to everyone how Wray had removed the security precautions from the Chair while standing beside the comatose guy who had his head drilled into. So many headaches would have prevented.

And I would like to point out that I don't think that Young is perfect or maybe even the best leader for this, but I personally wouldn't want either Wray or Rush in charge.

Lehane
April 13th, 2010, 05:49 PM
Rush is very reliable. He can be relied upon to do everything in his power to save the Destiny from trouble, and its crew along with it if at all possible. I can't make much of an argument beyond that because we simply don't know how far he's going to go to try and protect human life yet.

Rush can't be relied on to let someone else tell him what to do and how to do it. He's rebellious and independent, and doesn't care much for what anyone but Eli might have to say. Perhaps that'll be the point where he really screws up. Volker or Brody will be right about something someday, Rush will assume as always that he's ten times smarter than them, and he'll be dead wrong. I'd like to see that eventually.

You can trust Rush to scarifice you for his advancement. You need look no further than his framing Young for murder to remove Young from command and get Wray to remove the guard off the chair. That allowed Rush to schedule people in there unsupervised so one would eventually be tempted to sit in the chair.

And don't forget that Young had given Rush permission to sit in the chair himself already. If it was so important for someone to be in that chair, all Rush had to do was take a seat.

With that and his planting the false data regarding an Icarus Planet in the ship's database and his sabotage of Telford's experiment (which might have been the right call) not to mention his decision to send the refugees to Destiny in the first place, I am amazed anyone still trusts him.

Daro
April 13th, 2010, 06:44 PM
You can trust Rush to scarifice you for his advancement. You need look no further than his framing Young for murder to remove Young from command and get Wray to remove the guard off the chair. That allowed Rush to schedule people in there unsupervised so one would eventually be tempted to sit in the chair.

And don't forget that Young had given Rush permission to sit in the chair himself already. If it was so important for someone to be in that chair, all Rush had to do was take a seat.

With that and his planting the false data regarding an Icarus Planet in the ship's database and his sabotage of Telford's experiment (which might have been the right call) not to mention his decision to send the refugees to Destiny in the first place, I am amazed anyone still trusts him.

Well, the rest of the crew doesn't know much about the incident with Franklin. And neither do we. It can be interpreted as Rush manipulating everyone to get the opportunity to sacrifice a man's life on the altar of science. I don't think that's what happened. Rush is very clever. If I were him, I would not take the moment of my victory to make my move by convincing Franklin to take a spin in the chair. If that was ever his intent, he'd likely have wanted to wait and make sure his position was solid. After all, he would have to expect that Young would accuse him and Wray might restrict his priveledges in retaliation if she believed he acted so maliciously.

I think Rush just wanted to have control of his science team without Young breathing down his neck. Eli was likely a big part of that. He wanted Eli to stop making documentaries and spying on everyone for Young, and instead do what he was supposed to all along by assisting the science team.

Doesn't excuse framing Young for murder, but I have never agreed with the idea that the chair incident was exactly what it seemed. There's too much left unanswered about Rush to believe it.

I don't think Rush is about self advancement for its own sake. He knows he's the most valuable scientist the ship has. There's no arguing it. Realizing your own importance to the group in a survival situation isn't evil or ruthless particularly. It's responsible, in a way. And I certainly don't think he would sacrifice someone solely for his personal advancment. He acted very altruistically toward Chloe, risked his life to save hers and she contributes almost nothing to their survival.

You know. I have a wonder. It'd be funny as hell if it turned out that somehow YOUNG was the one who got Franklin to sit in the chair. Framing Rush while Rush was framing him. I...I don't think that's what happened. It'd blow my mind for sure, and it'd make the whole episode that much more interesting.

jelgate
April 13th, 2010, 09:50 PM
You're right. Absolutely. It was not intended to be like that, as you know. ;) I was more trying to say that what you see might not be there for Rush or for me. :)
I know you well enough that you would never intend to do that but most often it tends to degrade a little bit post after post until two posters start insulting the others inteligence. So its best to leave the poster out of it
.


It seems to me like you're idealizing Rush his philosophy (and that's not an offense), while it is in fact far from ideal (or that's what I think). I think we disagree on his philosophy to begin with... and that's why one person might say Rush is hypocritical (as in he doesn't follow his own theory) while another might say he's not. And that would have nothing to do with all his actions in previous episode, but just our interpretations of his theory, philosophy. Personally I believe that most of what we've seen indicates another, more complex theory and philosophy than what you mention in your first post. :)

Far enough. I just don't see that. To borrow a Star Trek comparrasion (Hope this isn't to geeky). I see Rush following the Spock philosphy of the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. In again that he believes if a sacrifice helps the crew as a whole is an accpeatable risk. That is with the exception of Divided that I'm calling his hypocrisy into question.


So, while I don't want to attack or insult you, I do want to point out that this discussion is kinda hard if we don't agree on what his philosophy actual is or how his actions should be interpreted to make sense in that context.

I see a prelude to agree to disagree statement



See, this is where I think you're simplifying it too much. This is not supposed to be a disrespect, but IMHO you need include not only what you said above, but also what Rush seems to believe about the value of talents, knowdledge, etc. of people and the implications of that on the greater good. He thinks it's okay to sacrifice a life, but it isn't a random pick. The sacrifice of this life cannot be worse for the greater good, than the benefit it will accomplish.

Oh thier is nothing random about it. I do agree that its about weighing their contributions and liablities. With Divided he could have cost the Destiny to blow up. I can't fathom how his skills could outweigh that risk


I'm not saying that Rush is right or wrong, what I am saying is that Rush believes he is right (of course), and that he might believe this. So while for us this might indeed seem insane, in Rush his mind this might not be. :) This is hardly the first time we've seen reasoning like this from Rush... I'm not trying to convince you that it is worse, however, I'm suggesting to look at it from Rush's POV.

Well the act hypocrisy isn't always conscious to the person who is committing it. But it is hypocritical none the less to advocate to the sacrfice of a life for the whole group and be hesitant to do it when its your turn.



You can't know that. And Destiny wouldn't have exploded. The shield would have collapsed, and they would have been over run by the aliens. I find it highly, very, hugely... unlikely that the aliens would suddenly have wanted to destroy or blow up the Destiny. On the contrary they are only firing on the ship to weaken the shield to be able to board the ship. Not that it matters really that much. :S

Yes I can. I can say thier was a possibility that the Destiny would have been blown up or you invaded example could occur. Lifeforms especially sentinent ones are unpredictible in their actions and its uncertain to say how they would act. For all we know the Destiny could the shield stress would have called a critical system to blow up or the aliens invading could have meant them killing Earth personel. Something that could of being avoided. The point is that multiple deaths was a very real possibility.




Yeah, but nor can you say for 100% certainty... :) ;) And that's were the problem lies. It all depends on interpretation and the value one attaches to certain elements. And while I might actually agree with you, I'm trying to suggest that Rush might disagree with us. :) That he finds other elements to be more important, and that fits perfectly in his greater good theory, and leads to the events as we saw them in Divided. :)
I have never claimed that anything was a certainty just that the risk of the aliens blowing up the ship was very real and a contradiction to the greater good belief.


Rush is very reliable. He can be relied upon to do everything in his power to save the Destiny from trouble, and its crew along with it if at all possible. I can't make much of an argument beyond that because we simply don't know how far he's going to go to try and protect human life yet.

Rush can't be relied on to let someone else tell him what to do and how to do it. He's rebellious and independent, and doesn't care much for what anyone but Eli might have to say. Perhaps that'll be the point where he really screws up. Volker or Brody will be right about something someday, Rush will assume as always that he's ten times smarter than them, and he'll be dead wrong. I'd like to see that eventually.
I think Rush is reliable to the point that his best interests are the same as yours. Ultimately I see him caring mostly about himself

pipi
April 14th, 2010, 05:25 AM
You can trust Rush to scarifice you for his advancement. You need look no further than his framing Young for murder to remove Young from command and get Wray to remove the guard off the chair. That allowed Rush to schedule people in there unsupervised so one would eventually be tempted to sit in the chair.


You have summed that part up brilliantly! This is a bit off topic but I'd just like to vent my steam when some people think that Rush is so innocent of anything in this instance. Rush had permission from Wray, so he did not disobey Young's orders because Young wasn't in charge anymore, or no one forced Franklin to sit in that chair, he did it by himself so Rush is not to blame... argh, hair pullers. end rant. Either you get it or you don't, I try to laugh at these people now.

Jper
April 14th, 2010, 11:56 AM
Hmmm... ponder Rush's reliability for a moment.

Well after the pondering I'm very convinced that Rush is more reliable than the stones. And that says something about how very very unreliable those stones are... 'cause I am NOT saying that Rush is reliable, if you catch my drift.


The Stones didn't start having issues until recently. And the most recent issue might have had something to do with Young's theory that Rush hid one of the stones and the Aliens got their hands on it.

Not true. The stones had problems even in the first episodes. They might have been downplayed, but they were there... I distinctly recall all sorts of discussion and complaining about them. I for one was very outspoken to high light the problems, but they were there and not non-existent. And problems doesn't only included "technical issues" or "malfunctions" there's much more than that.



I did say that from a TV show stand point they needed to establish their own characters. And I would imagine m aking the stones unreliable is one way of preventing the expectation that Carter/Mckay can come to the rescue.

Or McKay and Carter are simply otherwise occupied as BW and JM said.



Young should have simply played the video of Rush removing the gun from the suicide

I agree, albeit that I don't think it's "simply".



And I would like to point out that I don't think that Young is perfect or maybe even the best leader for this, but I personally wouldn't want either Wray or Rush in charge.

Neither would I. :) I think a shared leadership without Young, but three other people (Rush, Wray and TJ) is the best option. Each for their knowledge and expertise in their own field(s).



Far enough. I just don't see that. To borrow a Star Trek comparrasion (Hope this isn't to geeky). I see Rush following the Spock philosphy of the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. In again that he believes if a sacrifice helps the crew as a whole is an accpeatable risk. That is with the exception of Divided that I'm calling his hypocrisy into question.

Yeah, and I don't think he's following that philosophy. I think it's a bit more complicated than that. However, while I think there's more evidence and indication that I am right (IMHO), until we get more info -- i.e. Rush further explaining his philosophy or an interview with one of TPTB or RC with more info -- either of us could be right.

You asked if Rush is a hypocrite, and I think, you can not conclusively say that he is or isn't just based on one event in Divided and his only vaguely defined "philosophy". I might even agree with you, but I hope I succeeded to point out, to you, jel and you (in general) that Rush might have other thoughts about this. :)



I see a prelude to agree to disagree statement

Well, you better reconsider that, while I don't think Rush would consider himself a hypocrite, and while I think Rush his "greater good" philosophy is more complicated than sometimes presented here, that doesn't necessarily means I agree or disagree with you. For now, I'm keeping it in the middle, considering both (or several) POVs. :) I think I can see two main visions, but I don't know for sure which one is the real one, that Rush actually believes in, or that TPTB want RC to portray as his character, Rush.

Daro
April 15th, 2010, 12:40 AM
You have summed that part up brilliantly! This is a bit off topic but I'd just like to vent my steam when some people think that Rush is so innocent of anything in this instance. Rush had permission from Wray, so he did not disobey Young's orders because Young wasn't in charge anymore, or no one forced Franklin to sit in that chair, he did it by himself so Rush is not to blame... argh, hair pullers. end rant. Either you get it or you don't, I try to laugh at these people now.

I don't think Rush is an innocent person. I'm just not quick to condemn the 'obvious villain' when the show doesn't actually go ahead and confirm that. I've had too many good books and shows pull the rug out from under me. That and I love to play devil's advocate.

yanna
April 15th, 2010, 04:11 PM
no one forced Franklin to sit in that chair, he did it by himself so Rush is not to blame... argh, hair pullers. end rant. Either you get it or you don't, I try to laugh at these people now.

For crying out loud! Franklin is a grown man! Nobody made him sit on the chair! And Young's orders regarding the chair were completely moronic. How could they determine whether it's safe if they're not allowed to study it? And again, Rush had no way of knowing whether someone would actually sit on the chair. He just shared his own theories about it which were a tad more optimistic than Eli's.

The scientists should be the ones to judge whether they hate and blame Rush for Franklin. And correct me if I'm wrong, they don't. None of the scientists said good riddance when Young left Rush on that planet and in Divided the scientists banded with Rush and mutinied for that very reason. They are supporting Rush.

jelgate
April 15th, 2010, 09:19 PM
Well after the pondering I'm very convinced that Rush is more reliable than the stones. And that says something about how very very unreliable those stones are... 'cause I am NOT saying that Rush is reliable, if you catch my drift.
The stones are quite unreliable. Look how it cut out on Chloe when Dr. Brightman was conducting surgery. I wonder if the stones a death date if you will. Look at a computer. It only lasts so long before it becomes nonfunctional



Not true. The stones had problems even in the first episodes. They might have been downplayed, but they were there... I distinctly recall all sorts of discussion and complaining about them. I for one was very outspoken to high light the problems, but they were there and not non-existent. And problems doesn't only included "technical issues" or "malfunctions" there's much more than that.

I seem to recall no problems with the stones in Air

Or McKay and Carter are simply otherwise occupied as BW and JM said.
Not to mention how busy David Hewlett and Amanda Tapping are busy



Neither would I. :) I think a shared leadership without Young, but three other people (Rush, Wray and TJ) is the best option. Each for their knowledge and expertise in their own field(s).

That would be a bad idea. Not the shared leadership part but your not going to want to put a medic as the leader of the military. If your going to use the head science and head beuracrat you should really also include the head military officer.



Yeah, and I don't think he's following that philosophy. I think it's a bit more complicated than that. However, while I think there's more evidence and indication that I am right (IMHO), until we get more info -- i.e. Rush further explaining his philosophy or an interview with one of TPTB or RC with more info -- either of us could be right.
Of course you're going to think your right. Its called bias:P And if he is not following his philosphy thats a textbook definition of hypocrisy



You asked if Rush is a hypocrite, and I think, you can not conclusively say that he is or isn't just based on one event in Divided and his only vaguely defined "philosophy". I might even agree with you, but I hope I succeeded to point out, to you, jel and you (in general) that Rush might have other thoughts about this. :)
Of course Rush will think different so he can hide his hypocrisy. Its seems quite obvious his greater good philosphy is that the need of the crew is more important then that of one man. And yet he did not follow it. I doubt Rush is fully conscious of this but it still looks like hypocrisy


Well, you better reconsider that, while I don't think Rush would consider himself a hypocrite, and while I think Rush his "greater good" philosophy is more complicated than sometimes presented here, that doesn't necessarily means I agree or disagree with you. For now, I'm keeping it in the middle, considering both (or several) POVs. :) I think I can see two main visions, but I don't know for sure which one is the real one, that Rush actually believes in, or that TPTB want RC to portray as his character, Rush.
The question was never if Rush considered himself of hypocrite rather is he one for not following his stated philosphy


For crying out loud! Franklin is a grown man! Nobody made him sit on the chair! And Young's orders regarding the chair were completely moronic. How could they determine whether it's safe if they're not allowed to study it? And again, Rush had no way of knowing whether someone would actually sit on the chair. He just shared his own theories about it which were a tad more optimistic than Eli's.

Young said not to sit in. Nothing was said against studying it. I would highly disagree with it being moronic. Being a precursor to the Repistory to the Ancient interface death was a probablity. Why risk a life when its not nescarry?

Valos Cor
April 16th, 2010, 02:04 AM
Rush is in a position of power. If he can tell people that the greater good requires the loss of life and they believe him, then the fault is then on the crew and not him. If the situation presents rush with a choice between himself and the crew, and he chooses the crew then he as a person has failed, He was born with survival instinct for a reason.

As for whether or not he is a hypocrite, I do not believe he his, He has never stated on screen that he believes in the greater good he has only mentioned that in that situation someones life may have to be sacrificed for the good of the crew.

Whilst yes i have no doubt fellow Gaters will pick at that previous statement, I'd like you all to remember the fact that in Air the situation DEMANDED the death of someone. In Divided it did not as proven by the fact Rush is alive.

Daro
April 16th, 2010, 02:29 AM
Rush is in a position of power. If he can tell people that the greater good requires the loss of life and they believe him, then the fault is then on the crew and not him. If the situation presents rush with a choice between himself and the crew, and he chooses the crew then he as a person has failed, He was born with survival instinct for a reason.

As for whether or not he is a hypocrite, I do not believe he his, He has never stated on screen that he believes in the greater good he has only mentioned that in that situation someones life may have to be sacrificed for the good of the crew.

Whilst yes i have no doubt fellow Gaters will pick at that previous statement, I'd like you all to remember the fact that in Air the situation DEMANDED the death of someone. In Divided it did not as proven by the fact Rush is alive.

"Air" did not demand that someone die. It demanded someone find the scotch tape, a pencil, and a kino. The door failed mechanically, which was only figured out after the Senator had Greer at gunpoint. There was no talking him out of what he did. No one had to die to get that stupid button pushed.

Rush has never, unless one believes he intentionally got Franklin to sit in that chair, put someone in a position to die for his own gain. And I do disagree that he hasn't said he believes in the greater good. He hasn't delivered that line exactly, but he says something almost every episode that reinforces the idea that he's a utilitarian.

Jper
April 16th, 2010, 03:04 AM
The stones are quite unreliable. Look how it cut out on Chloe when Dr. Brightman was conducting surgery. I wonder if the stones a death date if you will. Look at a computer. It only lasts so long before it becomes nonfunctional .

Yup... Pretty much.



I seem to recall no problems with the stones in Air

I'm not only talking about technical problems. For one there was the whole Rush sneaking away with the stones and then secretly contacting Earth issue. With him coming back and giving that speech. Then there was the whole Senator Armstrong demanding to use the stones issue. And didn't Telford come on board in Air pt. 3? Anyway, lots of problem and issues with those stones.




That would be a bad idea. Not the shared leadership part but your not going to want to put a medic as the leader of the military. If your going to use the head science and head beuracrat you should really also include the head military officer.

I was thinking TJ was in the best position to be there 'cause she was the one with the most medical experience. :) And also one of the four officers on board. Clearly Young cannot be present imho, 'cause his problems with Rush and Wray will make the "sharing command" impossible. I still think Young should at least temporally be relieved of command. :) I'd love to put Young there together with Rush and Wray, but I simply don't think that would work, and I believe sharing command is more important than having Young there, at least for now. Anyway, there's no ideal solution to begin with.



Of course you're going to think your right. Its called bias:P And if he is not following his philosphy thats a textbook definition of hypocrisy

As I said, "his philosophy" is unclear and obviously we have a different opinion on what that might be. We've been over this. :) And the bias doesn't only apply to me, but also to Rush. Of course he is going to think he is right. :) So who are we/you to say, what Rush believes and think is right with this little info, and one moment in Divided to provide all counterarguments. :)



The question was never if Rush considered himself of hypocrite rather is he one for not following his stated philosphy

But as I said, "the stated philosophy" you are referring to, is still open for speculation. I have my opinion about what that "philosophy" might be, you have your opinion, and others will even think something else. So it's unclear to say if he is a hypocrite 'cause the evidence we should base that on is unclear.



Young said not to sit in. Nothing was said against studying it. I would highly disagree with it being moronic. Being a precursor to the Repistory to the Ancient interface death was a probablity. Why risk a life when its not nescarry?

Actually, Young did not want anyone to enter to room, so how do you propose they would study it? I disagree, Young did prevent them from studying the device. IMHO both Rush his approach and Young's approach were faulty. Young should have allowed them to go into the room to study it, and Rush should have kept the guard to prevent anyone from sitting in the chair or entering the room while having no business there.

Lahela
April 16th, 2010, 03:18 AM
And I do disagree that he hasn't said he believes in the greater good. He hasn't delivered that line exactly, but he says something almost every episode that reinforces the idea that he's a utilitarian.

Actually, I'm pretty sure he used those words in "Water".

Daro
April 16th, 2010, 03:26 AM
Actually, I'm pretty sure he used those words in "Water".

You're right. He says to TJ "Always consider the greater good" when she asks for advice.

Lahela
April 16th, 2010, 03:28 AM
You're right. He says to TJ "Always consider the greater good" when she asks for advice.

And from the way he said it and the circumstances under which he said it, I don't think he was just throwing out a line. He stood back and let her very capably handle the situation, offering input as necessary but not beyond. It was a great dynamic, I think.

Jper
April 16th, 2010, 03:31 AM
And from the way he said it and the circumstances under which he said it, I don't think he was just throwing out a line. He stood back and let her very capably handle the situation, offering input as necessary but not beyond. It was a great dynamic, I think.

Yeah, but maybe that's because TJ listens to him, and doesn't start yelling at him or blaming him for every thing that goes wrong on board... Unlike Young. Great dynamic it was indeed. :)

Daro
April 16th, 2010, 03:35 AM
And from the way he said it and the circumstances under which he said it, I don't think he was just throwing out a line. He stood back and let her very capably handle the situation, offering input as necessary but not beyond. It was a great dynamic, I think.

Yes. TJ behaves as a responsible commander should. She treats Rush respectfully and he returns the courtesy. I'd like to see Rush and TJ interact more in the future. It seems like she is one of the few people Rush is okay with. The part about 'Water' that is most often remembered is Rush and Young debating about saving Lt. Scott. I noticed that TJ offered no input either way there.

Lahela
April 16th, 2010, 03:36 AM
Yeah, but maybe that's because TJ listens to him, and doesn't start yelling at him or blaming him for every thing that goes wrong on board... Unlike Young. Great dynamic it was indeed. :)

Mutual respect - amazing, isn't it?! :)

FromOutside
April 16th, 2010, 04:18 AM
I think we should remember that we don't really know what Rush builds his morals on, or what his morals actually are and what he wishes to show other people of them. There is only few statements we can use to decrypt his believes so I don't think we can judge if Rush is a hypocrite or not. We simply don't have enough information.

Just because of Rush's overall personality I think his moral is strongly based on logic, ethics and scientific study of human moral. He may want to save lives ("all humans are invaluable"), and the logical part of his morals may tell him that more human lives saved is better than one because 20>1. The same part may note to him that if he doesn't kill one to stop the chain of events that will led to death of 20, morally he could have as well started the chain by saving one, so he should kill one person. But then again, studies of human moral have shown that the morals don't work with cold logic, and he may accept the flawed logic as a part of being a human.

So he may openly think and maybe even state that sacrificing a person for grater good is ok, and it is ok that the person going to die isn't ok with the decision and is 'morally allowed' to try not to be sacrificed.

Or something completely different. Anyway, not enough information to judge.

jelgate
April 16th, 2010, 10:38 AM
I'm not only talking about technical problems. For one there was the whole Rush sneaking away with the stones and then secretly contacting Earth issue. With him coming back and giving that speech. Then there was the whole Senator Armstrong demanding to use the stones issue. And didn't Telford come on board in Air pt. 3? Anyway, lots of problem and issues with those stones.

I look at it this way. The stones are like vacation but only 5 vactioners at a time. Thats bound to cause friction to use them




I was thinking TJ was in the best position to be there 'cause she was the one with the most medical experience. :) And also one of the four officers on board. Clearly Young cannot be present imho, 'cause his problems with Rush and Wray will make the "sharing command" impossible. I still think Young should at least temporally be relieved of command. :) I'd love to put Young there together with Rush and Wray, but I simply don't think that would work, and I believe sharing command is more important than having Young there, at least for now. Anyway, there's no ideal solution to begin with.

But TJ also have very little command experence. Granted she has potential but her area is more medical then command. It would be like giving Fraiser command of the SGC. Not very bright. By that logic if Young isn't in command because of the fiction then neither should Wray or Rush. Cause your just playing civilian favorites and I the way the military works you need who is ever highest on the miliatary to be on this "committee." It also completely undermines the chain of command



As I said, "his philosophy" is unclear and obviously we have a different opinion on what that might be. We've been over this. :) And the bias doesn't only apply to me, but also to Rush. Of course he is going to think he is right. :) So who are we/you to say, what Rush believes and think is right with this little info, and one moment in Divided to provide all counterarguments. :)

It seems quite clear to me. And of course Rush will say different. Rarely do people call themsleves a hypocrite even if they are one. Its hard to find faults. So really its all about indentifying Rush's philsophy and having an outside perspective of its hypocrisy. Because others (like Rush) wil have a bias that prevents a fair judgement.



But as I said, "the stated philosophy" you are referring to, is still open for speculation. I have my opinion about what that "philosophy" might be, you have your opinion, and others will even think something else. So it's unclear to say if he is a hypocrite 'cause the evidence we should base that on is unclear.
Air and Water seem good enough evidence to show that he believes the crew as a whole is more important then one.



Actually, Young did not want anyone to enter to room, so how do you propose they would study it? I disagree, Young did prevent them from studying the device. IMHO both Rush his approach and Young's approach were faulty. Young should have allowed them to go into the room to study it, and Rush should have kept the guard to prevent anyone from sitting in the chair or entering the room while having no business there.
The transcript disagree.s Young clearly says no one sits in it. Nothing about studying it in the lab


INT—CHAIR ROOM

[Young and Rush have joined the others in the room.]

YOUNG
Neural interface?
RUSH
A precursor to an Ancient device SG-1 discovered several years ago. A repository of knowledge that can be literally…downloaded into one's mind.
YOUNG
And you think this is one of those things?
RUSH
Within that knowledge may be the master code to unlock the ship's core systems. Navigation, propulsion.
YOUNG
You're sure?
RUSH
Well, we can't be certain until someone actually sits in the chair.
GREER
It looks like it holds you down and shoots bolts into your head.
RUSH
The-these are merely electrodes allowing the transfer of data.
YOUNG
You know what a device like this did to General O'Neill?
[Rush takes a large breath.]

RUSH
The sheer amount of information overwhelmed him, yes.
YOUNG
It damn near killed him is what it did.
RUSH
It led to incredible discoveries.
YOUNG
And…it damn near killed him. In fact, the only thing we know for sure is an Ancient device like this is pretty much a death sentence. Nobody sits in this thing.
(to Greer)

Jper
April 16th, 2010, 11:53 AM
Air and Water seem good enough evidence to show that he believes the crew as a whole is more important then one.

Yeah, but again, I think you should add the value of each member.



The transcript disagree.s Young clearly says no one sits in it. Nothing about studying it in the lab

Then why was the room guarded and weren't they allowed to enter to study it? I'm pretty sure, no one was allowed into the room until Wray was in command. Whatever the transcript might say...

jelgate
April 16th, 2010, 04:16 PM
Yeah, but again, I think you should add the value of each member.

Well that is is obvious but when someone is causing the aliens to come that could destroy the ship and the whole crew Rush's value isn't that important



Then why was the room guarded and weren't they allowed to enter to study it? I'm pretty sure, no one was allowed into the room until Wray was in command. Whatever the transcript might say...
The guards were so no one could enter the chair room and use it vs authorized people entering to study.

EllieVee
April 16th, 2010, 04:26 PM
The guards were so no one could enter the chair room and use it vs authorized people entering to study.

Where does it say that in the transcript?

jelgate
April 16th, 2010, 04:29 PM
Where does it say that in the transcript?

That is an inferrence. Becuase the transcript says Young allowed them to study it just not sit in it.

EllieVee
April 16th, 2010, 04:31 PM
That is an inferrence. Becuase the transcript says Young allowed them to study it just not sit in it.

That's not an inference at all, though I agree that Young said to study it. Rush, I note, wasn't studying it in the chair room, however, but from the control room. That indicates they were locked out, particularly since the scene where they do go in, no one else of the science team had yet seen it.

jelgate
April 16th, 2010, 04:32 PM
That's not an inference at all, though I agree that Young said to study it. Rush, I note, wasn't studying it in the chair room, however, but from the control room. That indicates they were locked out, particularly since the scene where they do go in, no one else of the science team had yet seen it.

Now who is randomly speculating?

Kaeb
April 16th, 2010, 05:00 PM
I've always thought of Rush as what would happen if Jack Bauer became a scientist instead of a Counter Terrorism Agent. He's all about the ends justifty the means, but this applies to almost any scenario, wether it's something in his own interest or for the interest of the crew, I wouldn't call him a selfish man.

EllieVee
April 16th, 2010, 05:03 PM
Now who is randomly speculating?

My use of 'indicate' shows that I'm speculating but I, at least, provided some evidence for my thoughts.

Rush was in the control room. And Volker (?) says, 'So, this is it?' [paraphrase] indicating he, at least, hasn't seen it before. The reactions of the others would indicate they haven't seen it before either. If they were allowed in previously, why wasn't Rush in there doing his research? Why hadn't the others in the science team seen it?

jelgate
April 16th, 2010, 05:22 PM
My use of 'indicate' shows that I'm speculating but I, at least, provided some evidence for my thoughts.

Rush was in the control room. And Volker (?) says, 'So, this is it?' [paraphrase] indicating he, at least, hasn't seen it before. The reactions of the others would indicate they haven't seen it before either. If they were allowed in previously, why wasn't Rush in there doing his research? Why hadn't the others in the science team seen it?
I'd hardly call that evidence.

Its just too much of leap. For all we know the terminals in the chair room only work in the chair room and you need the control room to access the the main computer.

nx01a
April 16th, 2010, 05:40 PM
I've always thought of Rush as what would happen if Jack Bauer became a scientist instead of a Counter Terrorism Agent. He's all about the ends justifty the means, but this applies to almost any scenario, wether it's something in his own interest or for the interest of the crew, I wouldn't call him a selfish man.He certainly manages to get out of capture and torture situations kinda like Jack.

EllieVee
April 16th, 2010, 06:03 PM
I'd hardly call that evidence.

Its just too much of leap. For all we know the terminals in the chair room only work in the chair room and you need the control room to access the the main computer.

True but then why go into the chair room to study it at all?

Jper
April 17th, 2010, 02:27 AM
Well that is is obvious but when someone is causing the aliens to come that could destroy the ship and the whole crew Rush's value isn't that important


The guards were so no one could enter the chair room and use it vs authorized people entering to study.


Where does it say that in the transcript?


That is an inferrence. Becuase the transcript says Young allowed them to study it just not sit in it.


That's not an inference at all, though I agree that Young said to study it. Rush, I note, wasn't studying it in the chair room, however, but from the control room. That indicates they were locked out, particularly since the scene where they do go in, no one else of the science team had yet seen it.


Now who is randomly speculating?


My use of 'indicate' shows that I'm speculating but I, at least, provided some evidence for my thoughts.

Rush was in the control room. And Volker (?) says, 'So, this is it?' [paraphrase] indicating he, at least, hasn't seen it before. The reactions of the others would indicate they haven't seen it before either. If they were allowed in previously, why wasn't Rush in there doing his research? Why hadn't the others in the science team seen it?


I'd hardly call that evidence.

Its just too much of leap. For all we know the terminals in the chair room only work in the chair room and you need the control room to access the the main computer.


True but then why go into the chair room to study it at all?

Rush and the other scientist were not allowed into the room to study the chair until Young gave command to Wray. After the discovery Young put a guard there, and no one was allowed inside. That's what happened in the episodes. I don't see how there's any discussion about this, I don't think it is open for much interpretation.

EllieVee
April 17th, 2010, 02:50 AM
Thank you, Jper!

I seem to be spending my evening running around GW thanking you for things. :D

jelgate
April 17th, 2010, 07:21 AM
Rush and the other scientist were not allowed into the room to study the chair until Young gave command to Wray. After the discovery Young put a guard there, and no one was allowed inside. That's what happened in the episodes. I don't see how there's any discussion about this, I don't think it is open for much interpretation.Because its just speculation. Young said no one could sit in the chair nothing about no one entering the room

Jper
April 17th, 2010, 10:14 AM
Because its just speculation. Young said no one could sit in the chair nothing about no one entering the room

Yeah right, so it's because he didn't say it that it is so. So if I harass you all day, but don't say that I'm harassing you, I'm not harassing you. Young can say what he want, he didn't allow anyone into the room, and he doesn't need to say that for it to be true, the guard in front of the door made sure of that.

jelgate
April 17th, 2010, 10:47 AM
Yeah right, so it's because he didn't say it that it is so. So if I harass you all day, but don't say that I'm harassing you, I'm not harassing you. Young can say what he want, he didn't allow anyone into the room, and he doesn't need to say that for it to be true, the guard in front of the door made sure of that.
It means you don't know because thier is not proof to prove or disprove. He said the chair nothing about the room. And the guards could be strictly for unauthorized personel amomg other things

Joachim
April 17th, 2010, 04:29 PM
His valuableness its not what is in question. Just how well he follow his so called moral belifs
this isn't a problem, though.
The aliens will follow... but they have been following for ages - and they have continuously been repelled by the shields and have never made it inside the ship, except when they kidnapped Chloe - which was kind of different. That was because Young weakened the shields by focusing power on the weapons. So it's been established that the only true threat to destiny is human intervention, rush understands this, and as such on all fronts his acquiring control over the ship was for all intents and purposes "the greater good". It nullified the threat of the aliens, it allowed him - the one with the greatest understanding of Destiny - to do what was necessary to preserve it, and it ended the dangerous, chaotic and potentially destructive leadership of Young. Not to mention it ensured his survival which has both personal and intra-personal ramifications.

The transmitter wasn't an issue to him as the aliens would be relegated to a minor nuisance at best, as they were prior to our arrival.

Jper
April 18th, 2010, 12:56 PM
It means you don't know because thier is not proof to prove or disprove. He said the chair nothing about the room. And the guards could be strictly for unauthorized personel amomg other things

I disagree, we clearly saw no one entering the room to investigate the chair, and a guard in front of the door prevented them from entering. I think that's all the prove we need. The first time we actually saw Rush investigating and examining the chair was when Wray got command, the guard disappeared and Rush entered with his science team.

Starrtom
April 19th, 2010, 09:57 PM
Rush is all things, that's why he is such a good and interesting character. Probably the most interesting character that Stargate has ever had (IMHO).

YutheGreat
April 22nd, 2010, 08:49 AM
Yes!

Rachel500
April 22nd, 2010, 09:03 AM
One concept we have seen Rush strongly believe in is "the greater good." He on a few occasions has said its okay to sacrifice human lives (among other things) if it benefits the overall group. But in Divided the tracking device was a serious problem for the Destiny in that Rush's presence severly puts danger and risk the Destiny. Does not Rush's concept of the greater good makes his death more benefical for the Destiny then him being alive. While I personally don't blame him for wanting to stay alive does not make Rush a hypocrite of his moral beliefs?

I kind of see Rush trying to hide his transmitter and working with Wray on her coup as being partially motivated by his own fear stemming from a deeply buried internal belief that he should be airlocked for the greater good not just his fear that Young would airlock him given their history.

However, self-preservation is strong in all humans and Rush is in no way suicidal. So just because somewhere deep down he probably does entertain the notion that he should be airlocked for the greater good doesn't mean that he's in any way eager to volunteer to do it. Is that hypocritical? Possibly to everyone but Rush who could also rationally argue that the danger presented by the transmitter is negated by his own skills and expertise being needed on Destiny; that the greater good is most served by him remaining on Destiny alive.

And he also tried to to find a way around the situation by making the aliens believe that they couldn't get into Destiny even with the humans on board by ensuring they followed what Destiny usually did (raise the shields) rather than doing what they did in the attack (firing the weapons). I think he hoped that by proving Destiny was once again impenetrable that it would make the transmitter a non-issue as with a proven strategy the Destiny crew would be able to survive the alien attacks.