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Blackhole
April 10th, 2010, 11:11 PM
What disciplinary actions should Young take towards Rush, Wray and the other civilians to maintain order and prevent another coup attempt?

Fridgefiend
April 10th, 2010, 11:14 PM
I doubt he will do much to discipline them. He'll probably try to work out some kind of deal with Wray since in previous episodes he said he doesn't want to factionalize the crew.

I liked how he made them do a little walk of shame past him at the end there but most of them will probably be willing to try again. All they have to do is plug that hole and their home free ;)

Nikec3
April 10th, 2010, 11:37 PM
Lock them in a small room with Greer :D

Gollumpus
April 10th, 2010, 11:55 PM
Young is doing the right thing. He wants to diffuse the situation so any punishment other than the cowed feeling that the majority of the civilians are experiencing would serve no purpose. Doing nothing also serves as an indication to the military that these people are not a conquered enemy and should not be treated as PoW's.

Another coup of this magnitude is highly unlikely. There is this failure, a loss of trust in parts of the civilian leadership (such as Rush), and the introduction of a common enemy. All of these would conspire against another large-scale coup. Rush and Wray will be there regardless.

regards,
G.

escyos
April 11th, 2010, 12:16 AM
spankings...lots of spankings..

Gollumpus
April 11th, 2010, 12:20 AM
spankings...lots of spankings..

The IOA wouldn't hear of it. From what I've heard spanking costs extra. They control that budget with an iron fist. :P

regards,
G.

escyos
April 11th, 2010, 12:26 AM
The IOA wouldn't hear of it. From what I've heard spanking costs extra. They control that budget with an iron fist. :P

regards,
G.

perhaps a iron palm?

Avenger
April 11th, 2010, 12:31 AM
I don't know that there will be much in the way of punishment. Maybe Young will have his people watch them more closely. Anything too severe would be counter productive to trying to smooth over the situation.

Joachim
April 11th, 2010, 12:41 AM
None. By all means, their treatment at the hands of the military during the event was a bit much as is. They were not trying to attack or assault, or kill, they were trying to get a voice - and they did what they felt was necessary to attain that.

hiro
April 11th, 2010, 01:23 AM
Nothing ... if he do something they'll have more motives to do it again ... i think that he should talk and do something with Rush and Wray

EllieVee
April 11th, 2010, 01:27 AM
I imagine that at the beginning of the next episode, at least, Rush will be under guard.

But if Young doesn't work out some sort of democratic arrangement then he's a bigger fool than I thought and let's face it, I thought he a pretty big fool before.

hiro
April 11th, 2010, 01:52 AM
under guard Rush ? ... it's better to find a diplomatic solution at list against Wray who is the major problem here , because when young or tj himself told about the searching device .. the crew will obviously feel used by Rush ... so the problem here is Wray !

Col.Foley
April 11th, 2010, 02:02 AM
I do not think he should do any, its over, its in the past, this is not quite a mutiny, this was a coup, and the point is they need time to heal and reflect. Next time he starts removing thumbs.

EllieVee
April 11th, 2010, 02:09 AM
under guard Rush ? ... it's better to find a diplomatic solution at list against Wray who is the major problem here , because when young or tj himself told about the searching device .. the crew will obviously feel used by Rush ... so the problem here is Wray !

I wonder if they will feel used by Rush or if they'll take the view that Young would have shot him in the head?

hiro
April 11th, 2010, 02:22 AM
I wonder if they will feel used by Rush or if they'll take the view that Young would have shot him in the head?

but they didn't see this ... and nobody confirm that rush was left in that planet

Alan Wake
April 11th, 2010, 02:27 AM
What disciplinary actions should Young take towards Rush, Wray and the other civilians to maintain order and prevent another coup attempt?

Air Lock

Alx
April 11th, 2010, 03:41 AM
What disciplinary actions should Young take towards Rush, Wray and the other civilians to maintain order and prevent another coup attempt?
NONE as Young has NO right to order around non military personell and since they are not military they are not for him to command or dicipline at his whim. this is the whole point the civilians tried to make they dint volonteer or sign up for military service hence Young does not command them.
also the civilians do nt trust youngs leadership abbilities and they dont want to have hime decide which one of them dies and doesnt especially as young is a terrible commander evident by one terrible decission after another

Alx
April 11th, 2010, 03:43 AM
I imagine that at the beginning of the next episode, at least, Rush will be under guard.

But if Young doesn't work out some sort of democratic arrangement then he's a bigger fool than I thought and let's face it, I thought he a pretty big fool before.

indeed seconded and agreed!

Vapor
April 11th, 2010, 05:33 AM
NONE as Young has NO right to order around non military personell and since they are not military they are not for him to command or dicipline at his whim. this is the whole point the civilians tried to make they dint volonteer or sign up for military service hence Young does not command them.

But he kind of does. They all signed up to be under military command at Icarus, correct? Which means they receive orders from him and are contractually bound to carry them out.

The only difference now is that Young is cut off from his own bosses, which include both civilian and military leaders, and when they do connect, Young will have the final say-so since he's there in the thick of things and his leaders are not.

But technically speaking, Young is still in command. Of pretty much everyone.

EllieVee
April 11th, 2010, 06:47 AM
But he kind of does. They all signed up to be under military command at Icarus, correct? Which means they receive orders from him and are contractually bound to carry them out.

The only difference now is that Young is cut off from his own bosses, which include both civilian and military leaders, and when they do connect, Young will have the final say-so since he's there in the thick of things and his leaders are not.

But technically speaking, Young is still in command. Of pretty much everyone.

No, it doesn't seem they did.

Blackhole
April 11th, 2010, 07:01 AM
Young is doing the right thing. He wants to diffuse the situation so any punishment other than the cowed feeling that the majority of the civilians are experiencing would serve no purpose. Doing nothing also serves as an indication to the military that these people are not a conquered enemy and should not be treated as PoW's.

Another coup of this magnitude is highly unlikely. There is this failure, a loss of trust in parts of the civilian leadership (such as Rush), and the introduction of a common enemy. All of these would conspire against another large-scale coup. Rush and Wray will be there regardless.

regards,
G.

Given the level of dissatisfaction and threat the civilians must have felt from Young to risk staging a coup, I don't think they will be willing to just walk away. What is to stop Rush or another computer skilled individual working with him from trying again?

I think the only way Young is going to continue to govern is through excessive force from the military. I don’t think it is practical or advised to use force on a spaceship to control a much larger group of technically skilled individuals; they are going to feel threatened and repressed. The potential for catastrophic sabotage from any of them is far too great. Young was willing to step down when he was accused of murder to prevent exactly this type of scenario from happening. I think he should go to Earth offer to step down and allow them to promote Scott or TJ to command. I believe Scott is the next in line but imo TJ would make a better leader.

Trying to establish a committee based civilian leadership like what Kaiphantom and others have maintained sounds nice on paper but imo isn’t practical or effective. As Gollumpus has astutely shown, a single commander needs to be designated; someone the military contingent will support. A civilian leader skilled enough like Weir could take over; but so far none are present that are qualified.

mjwalshe
April 11th, 2010, 07:03 AM
No, it doesn't seem they did.

I am looking forward to the episode "masters and servants" where they get Wolsey to come in via the stones and go through the contracts of employment with a fine toothcomb. :-)

Sigh maybe Wray and Rush get demoted to bottle washers for cookie.

ps Masters and Servants is a refernce to the key peice of law both Uk and US employment law descends

Nindif
April 11th, 2010, 07:29 AM
Another coup of this magnitude is highly unlikely. There is this failure, a loss of trust in parts of the civilian leadership (such as Rush), and the introduction of a common enemy. All of these would conspire against another large-scale coup. Rush and Wray will be there regardless.

Punishment is unnecessary. Young knows if an agreed upon leadership situation is not arranged then the civilians will eventually try something again because of Wray. He knows the humiliating and complete defeat of the civilians plan is punishment enough for the moment.

He knows they will regroup if Wray is not settled with the leadership situation. It would not happen immediately because his handling of that situation demonstrates to them that on board destiny, the military are skilled enough to diffuse a situation even Rush throws at them.

In the end, these petty problems will become insignificant when faced with bigger problems beyond political nitpicking. They will (must) unite against a common enemy, not amongst themselves. The Aliens will provide this resolution.

madaboutdanny
April 11th, 2010, 07:42 AM
Sorry, but after what Young did to Rush on that palanet, I don't think he as the right to punish the civilians, and I think they know now that Young left Rush to die on the planet, stupid move to make since Rush is the ancient expert.

jelgate
April 11th, 2010, 08:15 AM
Its really not realastic to punish all the civilians. Its inpractical. It sounds idealistic but the best course to prevent this from happening again by finding common ground

Coronach
April 11th, 2010, 08:32 AM
Its really not realastic to punish all the civilians. Its inpractical. It sounds idealistic but the best course to prevent this from happening again by finding common ground

This!

As far as "disciplinary actions" goes, I'm not sure there's too much Young could viably do in this situation. Executing them would be nearly out of the question, as it would look much worse given what the civilians think of Young leaving Rush on the planet to die (note: remember, they all think Young is completely in the wrong here).

What I expect to happen is for Young to amp up his surveillance of Wray and Rush in various ways, the least of which being Eli spying on them more. We'll see though.

Encoder
April 11th, 2010, 09:17 AM
I think that the response from Young was PERFECT...don't do ANYTHING whatsoever because it will keep the Civ's in constant, "oh crap, he could do something to retaliate for us doing this".

It will allow the Colonel the opportunity to let the Civ's come up with their own worst punishment, the punishment they will make up inside their own heads.

The Civ's clearly have seen that even their best attempt with everyone being organised was swiftly quashed as that's "what they do" as TJ succinctly put it!

:sheppard:

FallenAngelII
April 11th, 2010, 09:20 AM
Nothing. If the civilians go on a strike, the military is powerless. All they'll have is Eli (and he's seemingly barely on Young's side as it is at this moment, he's definitely begun doubting Young. If Young's gonna punish the civilians for trying to peacefully take over the ship (an action the military responded to by using unnecessary force against the civilians, such as James pistol-whipping that one guy just to make a point), he should have to be tried for attempted murder on Rush.

As it is, all they can do is tolerate each other.

asdf1239
April 11th, 2010, 09:23 AM
Air Lock
Suicide

hiro
April 11th, 2010, 11:41 AM
If Young's gonna punish the civilians for trying to peacefully take over the ship (an action the military responded to by using unnecessary force against the civilians, such as James pistol-whipping that one guy just to make a point), he should have to be tried for attempted murder on Rush..

peacefully ? leaving all the soldiers with no water / food? and using weapons ? it's not peacefully ... indeed the military used too much force but they were pissed ... come on ! some soldiers practically give here lives to save all the civilian people ( remember who get the sand for the co2 converter ? and the ice for water ? or who get out the bugs (aliens ) off the ship ... )

i think that both sides are wrong fighting ! it's not a competition for who get's the power ... it's about survive

meo3000
April 11th, 2010, 11:51 AM
Wray and Rush should be confined to guarded quarters indefinitely.

Young need to clear things up with the crew, start new. He needs to tell them about Rush backstabbing , Wray plotting, and his ultimate mistake to leave Rush for dead.

hiro
April 11th, 2010, 11:56 AM
Wray and Rush should be confined to guarded quarters indefinitely.

Young need to clear things up with the crew, start new. He needs to tell them about Rush backstabbing , Wray plotting, and his ultimate mistake to leave Rush for dead.

Young can't do this... is like put them in jail ! And don't forget that Rush mostly run himself the ship ...

jelgate
April 11th, 2010, 11:57 AM
Young can't do this... is like put them in jail ! And don't forget that Rush mostly run himself the ship ...

Volkner can do it. It seems as capable as Rush

hiro
April 11th, 2010, 12:02 PM
Volkner can do it. It seems as capable as Rush

Yeap maybe ... but Young can't do this ! all the civilians sure'll complain and the research of the ship sure'll go more slowly ...

Byakuya Truelight
April 11th, 2010, 12:15 PM
I think there's 2 logical options:

1. Young and Wray agree to be co-leaders, while always consulting with Rush for decisions involving the ship itself. Young gets the final decision regarding anything military, Wray gets the final decision regarding life on the ship, and Rush gets the final decision for anything regarding the ship itself. Because it's pretty obvious that any ONE of them would fail to make decisions regarding ALL of these things.

2. Young shoots himself and all military personnel out an air lock.

Lahela
April 11th, 2010, 12:21 PM
peacefully ? leaving all the soldiers with no water / food? and using weapons ? it's not peacefully ... indeed the military used too much force but they were pissed ... come on ! some soldiers practically give here lives to save all the civilian people ( remember who get the sand for the co2 converter ? and the ice for water ? or who get out the bugs (aliens ) off the ship ... )

i think that both sides are wrong fighting ! it's not a competition for who get's the power ... it's about survive

Why in the name of all that glitters do people keep dragging out this blatant untruth??? They GAVE them food and water for Pete's sake! In exchange for Eli. :rolleyes:

jelgate
April 11th, 2010, 12:23 PM
Why in the name of all that glitters do people keep dragging out this blatant untruth??? They GAVE them food and water for Pete's sake! In exchange for Eli. :rolleyes:

Because the civilians needed something in return in their coup. If Eli was on thier side I doubt they would be so gracious to give the soldiers food and water

Lahela
April 11th, 2010, 12:26 PM
Because the civilians needed something in return in their coup. If Eli was on thier side I doubt they would be so gracious to give the soldiers food and water

Well, we'll never know will we? Because they did give them food and water. And how exactly do we know that if the hole had been on the Young side of the line that he wouldn't have turned off life support to the civilians? We don't. That doesn't change the fact that people are quite deliberately misconstruing events in the episode just to bolster their own viewpoints.

jelgate
April 11th, 2010, 12:32 PM
Well, we'll never know will we? Because they did give them food and water. And how exactly do we know that if the hole had been on the Young side of the line that he wouldn't have turned off life support to the civilians? We don't. That doesn't change the fact that people are quite deliberately misconstruing events in the episode just to bolster their own viewpoints.

Because if it was truly a peaceful coup/munity/whatever they wouldn't have withheld supplies at (ie not ask for something in return) that people need to live

meo3000
April 11th, 2010, 12:33 PM
They did organize a coup d'etat. Confining them to their comfortable quarters is not like jail. You cant trust them to go roaming the ship like nothing happened.

Rush cant be trusted knowing he could depressurized a section of the ship and kill half the military personnel just for another justifiable revenge.

Wray proved her IOA ties by sabotaging the command structure to profit her own agenda, therefor proving she cant be trusted.

The people on that ship arent stupid, theyre highly educated scientist for the most part, they signed to work for the military and all of a sudden theyre gonna follow the crazies? They need to realize they also screwed up.

This is not a democracy.

Lahela
April 11th, 2010, 12:34 PM
Because if it was truly a peaceful coup/munity/whatever they wouldn't have withheld supplies at (ie not ask for something in return) that people need to live

But they didn't withhold supplies, and as events went the way they did we will never know if they would have. So we can't state categorically that they did withhold supplies when all we saw was that they didn't. That's the point I'm trying to make. The issues raised in the ep are complicated and morally ambiguous enough without people rewriting them, that's all.

jelgate
April 11th, 2010, 12:37 PM
But they didn't withhold supplies, and as events went the way they did we will never know if they would have. So we can't state categorically that they did withhold supplies when all we saw was that they didn't. That's the point I'm trying to make. The issues raised in the ep are complicated and morally ambiguous enough without people rewriting them, that's all.

But they would have if they didn't need something in return. Thats the point. They only traded supplies because they needed.

(We're runiing around in circles:P)

Lahela
April 11th, 2010, 12:41 PM
But they would have if they didn't need something in return. Thats the point. They only traded supplies because they needed.

That we saw.


(We're runiing around in circles:P)

Waltzing :p

Sami_
April 11th, 2010, 12:57 PM
I think Young would be well within his rights to confine both Rush and Wray as instigators of the attempted mutiny.

Byakuya Truelight
April 11th, 2010, 01:00 PM
Too bad Destiny can't be more like Atlantis. In seasons 1-3 and 5, remember that the commander was a civilian, and in one case an IOA representative, and the second-in-command was the military commander. Not the other way around.

FallenAngelII
April 11th, 2010, 01:03 PM
peacefully ? leaving all the soldiers with no water / food?
It's still peaceful. They used coercion, not force.


and using weapons ?
What episode were you watching?


indeed the military used too much force but they were pissed ... come on ! some soldiers practically give here lives to save all the civilian people ( remember who get the sand for the co2 converter ? and the ice for water ? or who get out the bugs (aliens ) off the ship ... )
And they also tried to kill Rush for being an eyesore.


i think that both sides are wrong fighting ! it's not a competition for who get's the power ... it's about survive
No, the civilians are right. Power should be shared. Not a dictatorship, but a democracy.

s09119
April 11th, 2010, 01:09 PM
What disciplinary actions should Young take towards Rush, Wray and the other civilians to maintain order and prevent another coup attempt?

None, considering if they simply refuse to do their day-to-day work, they'll all be dead in a week or so.

hiro
April 11th, 2010, 02:17 PM
Well, we'll never know will we? Because they did give them food and water. And how exactly do we know that if the hole had been on the Young side of the line that he wouldn't have turned off life support to the civilians? We don't. That doesn't change the fact that people are quite deliberately misconstruing events in the episode just to bolster their own viewpoints.

Is not the actions ... is the the propose of let him with no water and food ... i agree that maybe if the situation go so long they maybe give water and food to the military people ... but come on ! again i say that some soldiers (Scott for example ) give her life to get Air (sand for the co2 converter ) it don't look like many civilians ( except the senator, and it was because he was dead already, ) done that ....

hiro
April 11th, 2010, 02:26 PM
What episode were you watching?

when they treat Eli .. there i can see 2 guns ... and the other of the marine that TJ orders to give ...




And they also tried to kill Rush for being an eyesore.

i don't understand this .... can you try again please ?



No, the civilians are right. Power should be shared. Not a dictatorship, but a democracy.

Yes i agree that power should be shared ... but not with fight ... they should sit in a table and talk ... a very loooong talk ... cose if we follow this way probably the ship is going to blow up before they agree in something ....

KEK
April 11th, 2010, 02:56 PM
What disciplinary actions should Young take towards Rush, Wray and the other civilians to maintain order and prevent another coup attempt?

None. He doesn't have the right. If he wants to avoid a coup he should call an election.

_SocraticMethod
April 11th, 2010, 04:04 PM
In my opinion, none.

I don't think Young is going for a 'marshall law' approach to his command. The last thing he needs to do is further alienate the civilians. I think that, by virtue of the fact that the insurrection failed, Young has gone a fair ways in solidifying his leadership. If he tried to lock Wray and Rush away or anything along those lines, it would only demonstrate to everyone that the only way Young has of maintaining control is brute force. Young wants to show that he can maintain his position because of everyone's recognition of his leadership. Young is playing a psychological game with Rush and Wray - he knows all to well that this is not a game he can play (let alone win) through the use of might.

reddevil18
April 11th, 2010, 04:34 PM
No dessert for a month.

s09119
April 11th, 2010, 04:36 PM
No dessert for a month.

They had dessert!? =O

Blackhole
April 11th, 2010, 04:41 PM
In my opinion, none.

I don't think Young is going for a 'marshall law' approach to his command. The last thing he needs to do is further alienate the civilians. I think that, by virtue of the fact that the insurrection failed, Young has gone a fair ways in solidifying his leadership. If he tried to lock Wray and Rush away or anything along those lines, it would only demonstrate to everyone that the only way Young has of maintaining control is brute force. Young wants to show that he can maintain his position because of everyone's recognition of his leadership. Young is playing a psychological game with Rush and Wray - he knows all to well that this is not a game he can play (let alone win) through the use of might.

I disagree. The civilians are already alienated, enough to stage a coup. Young has bent over backwards putting up with Rush and trying to be very reasonable with the civilians. They have to know he is in charge and that there will be consequences for insubordination. I think it is time for him to get tough. At the very least he should confine Rush and Wray to quarters for 6 months. Take both leaders out of the picture and the rest will fall in line. Unfortunately, since this is a TV show and you can’t very well have two major characters locked in a cell for any length of time I know this isn’t going to happen. In a real world situation it is the least he should do.

I think Young either has to step down or adopt a much more disciplined stance.

EllieVee
April 11th, 2010, 04:59 PM
I am looking forward to the episode "masters and servants" where they get Wolsey to come in via the stones and go through the contracts of employment with a fine toothcomb. :-)

Sigh maybe Wray and Rush get demoted to bottle washers for cookie.

ps Masters and Servants is a refernce to the key peice of law both Uk and US employment law descends

*perks up at the possibility of research* Linky?


And they also tried to kill Rush for being an eyesore.

*looks indignant at Rush being described as an eyesore*

Azzers
April 11th, 2010, 05:29 PM
I disagree. The civilians are already alienated, enough to stage a coup. Young has bent over backwards putting up with Rush and trying to be very reasonable with the civilians. They have to know he is in charge and that there will be consequences for insubordination. I think it is time for him to get tough. At the very least he should confine Rush and Wray to quarters for 6 months. Take both leaders out of the picture and the rest will fall in line. Unfortunately, since this is a TV show and you can’t very well have two major characters locked in a cell for any length of time I know this isn’t going to happen. In a real world situation it is the least he should do.

I think Young either has to step down or adopt a much more disciplined stance.

Ok, now think for a second that you are in Young's situation. You have a coup attempt already that tells you that your methods up until this point have brought the crew the point of mutiny. Your methods up until this point have included, a survival lottery enforced at gunpoint. Your methods have included leaving an important civilian on a deserted planet by force. You have Eli doing surveillence (either on orders or by not saying anything) on the crew. I'm sorry, but objectively there is nothing about Young's command that includes "bending over backwards."

Did the marines go to the planet to get venom. Yes. Did the marines get the water? Yes. Did the marines find CO2 scrubbing chemicals? Yes. Well congratulations for doing your job. In no society outside of a dictatorship does that entitle military commanders to free reign.

Here's the rub, I don't think Young is a bad guy (with the exception of the Rush incident.) I think he's a good guy who doesn't know the right course of action because this isn't something there's a clear set of regulations for. If he starts trying to "punish" people, he's going to slide into the "bad guy" camp. Why? He's no longer following orders himself AND he's expecting everyone to follow his. And he's doing it because he has control of the guns.

Then, the next time this happens (which it would), Greer would order a scientist to "get on the ground" and the scientist is going to let Greer pull the trigger instead. Why? Someone's not going to mind being a martyr.

To quote Adama from BSG:

"There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people."

One of my favorite quotes from the show, because it's extremely accurate.

haloplayer
April 11th, 2010, 05:38 PM
Ok, now think for a second that you are in Young's situation. You have a coup attempt already that tells you that your methods up until this point have brought the crew the point of mutiny. Your methods up until this point have included, a survival lottery enforced at gunpoint. Your methods have included leaving an important civilian on a deserted planet by force. You have Eli doing surveillence (either on orders or by not saying anything) on the crew. I'm sorry, but objectively there is nothing about Young's command that includes "bending over backwards."

Did the marines go to the planet to get venom. Yes. Did the marines get the water? Yes. Did the marines find CO2 scrubbing chemicals? Yes. Well congratulations for doing your job. In no society outside of a dictatorship does that entitle military commanders to free reign.

Here's the rub, I don't think Young is a bad guy (with the exception of the Rush incident.) I think he's a good guy who doesn't know the right course of action because this isn't something there's a clear set of regulations for. If he starts trying to "punish" people, he's going to slide into the "bad guy" camp. Why? He's no longer following orders himself AND he's expecting everyone to follow his. And he's doing it because he has control of the guns.

Then, the next time this happens (which it would), Greer would order a scientist to "get on the ground" and the scientist is going to let Greer pull the trigger instead. Why? Someone's not going to mind being a martyr.

To quote Adama from BSG:

"There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people."

One of my favorite quotes from the show, because it's extremely accurate.

You left out the "Rape" incident with Young. When he caused Telford's body to be raped.

Last time i checked rape is a bad thing, and the sad thing is Young does not even consider it rape.

O are the crew of the Destiny worthy of survival? :)

Replicator Todd
April 11th, 2010, 05:43 PM
Honestly, I sure hope he doesn't take any disciplinary action. Unless he wishes to make them even angrier.

Lord Hurin
April 11th, 2010, 06:29 PM
Honestly, I sure hope he doesn't take any disciplinary action. Unless he wishes to make them even angrier.

I don't think there's any evidence that he will take any. He seemed willing to talk with Wray after the whole thing.

EllieVee
April 11th, 2010, 06:31 PM
The test of Young's ability to play nicely with people is not with Wray.

Lord Hurin
April 11th, 2010, 06:35 PM
The test of Young's ability to play nicely with people is not with Wray.

It seems she represents the interests of her fellow civilians. Talking to her would probably be the best place to start.

EllieVee
April 11th, 2010, 06:41 PM
It seems she represents the interests of her fellow civilians. Talking to her would probably be the best place to start.

Sure, but she's easier than facing up to his paranoia issues with Rush, kind of just like she said.

Lord Hurin
April 11th, 2010, 06:43 PM
Sure, but she's easier than facing up to his paranoia issues with Rush, kind of just like she said.

Why would he have anything to say to Rush? Last time they had a verbal agreement (hell, EVERY time that I can remember) Rush has reneged on his part shortly after.

EllieVee
April 11th, 2010, 06:45 PM
Why would he have anything to say to Rush? Last time they had a verbal agreement (hell, EVERY time that I can remember) Rush has reneged on his part shortly after.

Can you list them for me? It sounds like you've thought of far many more instances of Rush vs Young than I have.

jsonitsac
April 11th, 2010, 06:46 PM
Discipline may be the wrong move. Perhaps he would be better off negotiating some kind of power sharing agreement, or a constitution for the crew or something. That way, these problems don't have to happen.

Lord Hurin
April 11th, 2010, 06:53 PM
Can you list them for me? It sounds like you've thought of far many more instances of Rush vs Young than I have.

I can think of at least three times when Rush has gone behind Young's back and countermanded what he said to do.

-Dialing Destiny instead of Earth
-The chair incident
-The agreement to get along "for the sake of the crew"

pipi
April 11th, 2010, 06:56 PM
Just stick to the default line, pretend it never happened. It seems to work.

hiro
April 11th, 2010, 07:09 PM
Just stick to the default line, pretend it never happened. It seems to work.

Not a good idea ! Talk with Wray it's the best option ... well talk with Wray , Rush and other "important" civilians

Lahela
April 11th, 2010, 11:06 PM
I can think of at least three times when Rush has gone behind Young's back and countermanded what he said to do.

-Dialing Destiny instead of Earth
-The chair incident
-The agreement to get along "for the sake of the crew"

He didn't disobey anything with regard to the chair - Wray was in charge and gave him control over his science team, so they began study of the chair.

timmciglobal
April 11th, 2010, 11:11 PM
You really can't punish the participants without risking another more violent mutiny.

You either have to pretend it didn't happen or risk harsh reprisal.

Tim

jelgate
April 11th, 2010, 11:13 PM
You really can't punish the participants without risking another more violent mutiny.

You either have to pretend it didn't happen or risk harsh reprisal.

TimYou can't ignore the munity. It happened for a reason. But at the same time punishment is inpractical. The only other altenative is trying to find a solution to appease both sides. Kind of hope this is addressed in future episodes

FallenAngelII
April 11th, 2010, 11:24 PM
when they treat Eli .. there i can see 2 guns ... and the other of the marine that TJ orders to give ...
Yes? And? They still didn't take over the ship using weapons. They had a few weapons. It doesn't make it an armed coup.


i don't understand this .... can you try again please ?
Young - Rush - planet. Young beats Rush up and leaves him for dead. Greer blatant supported it. TJ and Scott suspected the truth and did not raise objections.


Yes i agree that power should be shared ... but not with fight ... they should sit in a table and talk ... a very loooong talk ... cose if we follow this way probably the ship is going to blow up before they agree in something ....
You really think Rush or Wray trust Young enough to do that after all that has happened?

Gollumpus
April 11th, 2010, 11:26 PM
He didn't disobey anything with regard to the chair - Wray was in charge and gave him control over his science team, so they began study of the chair.

Rush was told by Young that he and his team could study the chair. Young said in "Life", "I'm not telling you to ignore it, I'm telling you to study it without sitting in it." When Rush believed he was free of any repercussions from Young ("Justice"), he manipulated members of his team to see if he could get one of them to sit in the chair (as it turns out, Dr. Franklin did).

regards,
G.

FallenAngelII
April 11th, 2010, 11:45 PM
-Dialing Destiny instead of Earth
I don't remember them discussing this followed by Rush renegging on it. Rush just did it.


-The chair incident
We have no proof Rush did anything to make it happen. We have Young's suspicions. And it was still Volkor's choice to sit in the chair.


-The agreement to get along "for the sake of the crew"
What was Rush supposed to do? Spring it on Young that there was a coup brewing?

hiro
April 12th, 2010, 12:37 AM
Yes? And? They still didn't take over the ship using weapons. They had a few weapons. It doesn't make it an armed coup.


well ok ! but they had weapons ... and you don't go with a gun in your hand only to scare others ... i would like to see what would happen if the soldier who gives his gun refuse to go to her "jail" ....


Young - Rush - planet. Young beats Rush up and leaves him for dead. Greer blatant supported it. TJ and Scott suspected the truth and did not raise objections.

thanks, i'm not agree with Young decision, he was so wrong !



You really think Rush or Wray trust Young enough to do that after all that has happened?

both sides have done bad things if we can't trust eachother who we're gone trust ? the aliens ?

EllieVee
April 12th, 2010, 01:40 AM
Rush was told by Young that he and his team could study the chair. Young said in "Life", "I'm not telling you to ignore it, I'm telling you to study it without sitting in it." When Rush believed he was free of any repercussions from Young ("Justice"), he manipulated members of his team to see if he could get one of them to sit in the chair (as it turns out, Dr. Franklin did).

regards,
G.

No proof of any manipulation just the usual speculation. Rush said that people who worked on it had orders not to sit in the chair, something that is too easily checked for him to lie about.


I can think of at least three times when Rush has gone behind Young's back and countermanded what he said to do.

-Dialing Destiny instead of Earth
-The chair incident
-The agreement to get along "for the sake of the crew"

FallenAngelII has said what I was going to say regarding this but I didn't want you to think I had ignored your reply.

Lahela
April 12th, 2010, 01:52 AM
Rush was told by Young that he and his team could study the chair. Young said in "Life", "I'm not telling you to ignore it, I'm telling you to study it without sitting in it." When Rush believed he was free of any repercussions from Young ("Justice"), he manipulated members of his team to see if he could get one of them to sit in the chair (as it turns out, Dr. Franklin did).

regards,
G.

That old chestnut! LOL! No, Franklin made that choice all on his own. Do people honestly think Rush has some sort of mind control device in his back pocket or something?

EllieVee
April 12th, 2010, 01:53 AM
That old chestnut! LOL! No, Franklin made that choice all on his own. Do people honestly think Rush has some sort of mind control device in his back pocket or something?

*coughs*

I think our thread might be evidence of that, Lahela ...

:D

Lahela
April 12th, 2010, 01:55 AM
*coughs*

I think our thread might be evidence of that, Lahela ...

:D

That's all RC's doing :p

thesteak23
April 12th, 2010, 02:03 AM
This is far from a democracy, they are stranded as far from home as they can get in a life and death situation. this is the equivilant of martial law, military should have complete control, they put their lives on the line while the civvies sit around on the ship on all the important missions, if they get attacked its them who defend the others, and its them who are trained for simular situations. clear control is important for keeping order, Ive been saying for the last few episodes, if young doesnt excerpt control hes going to have problems, he cant be the weak leader he has been, and this episode was the result of it. now he has to show there is a clear chain of command. I would lock rush away absolutly, any work he would do should be under armed guard. he is clearly willing to put other peoples live on the line for personal purposes and can not be trusted.

as for the military responce, pistol whipping one guy was far from overkill, in fact i was supprised how much restraint was given, after what they tried they would have felt betrayed by the very people they have been laying their lives down for so they could take control and play boss. I woulda pistol whipped the first person who didnt back down also to show them its no luaghing matter, there are concequences for such actions. actions that can ultimatly cost the lives of everyone on the ship.

as young said, they need to live with these people, pistol whipping was more then justified, iim supprised it was only one person tbh and in reality it probubly would have been more with how long it took them to actually hit the floor. expecially knowing at least one of them was armed. but since they still have to live with these people I would only punish the ringleaders. and it wouldnt be a small slap on the wrist, command needs to show that there are reprocussions and you cant just try and take over the ship because you dont like the way its done, in this sort of situation democracy gets you killed, plain and simple. fighting over leadership also gets you killed.

taking back the ship and sending everyone to their rooms with no punishment is basically saying, you loose, we win today... better luck tomorrow. because if theres no concequences, why not try again? what have you got to loose? nothing at all.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 02:10 AM
This is far from a democracy, they are stranded as far from home as they can get in a life and death situation. this is the equivilant of martial law, military should have complete control, they put their lives on the line while the civvies sit around on the ship on all the important missions...
Then building sites are under martial law? Because, you know, there are deadly accidents and all there.

Also, civilians go on important missions all the time. In fact, sometimes the civilians outnumber the soldiers.

pipi
April 12th, 2010, 02:12 AM
No discipline, no one is your daddy. Every knows that even though they don't agree with each other, they have the crew's best interest in mind. A big disfunctional family that still loves each other.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 12th, 2010, 04:08 AM
There should be no disciplinary action. Disciplinary action could result in more push back from the civilian side. All the scientists and techs have to do is refuse to work. Then everyone's in a very bad position.

Blackhole
April 12th, 2010, 05:12 AM
This is far from a democracy, they are stranded as far from home as they can get in a life and death situation. this is the equivilant of martial law, military should have complete control, they put their lives on the line while the civvies sit around on the ship on all the important missions, if they get attacked its them who defend the others, and its them who are trained for simular situations. clear control is important for keeping order, Ive been saying for the last few episodes, if young doesnt excerpt control hes going to have problems, he cant be the weak leader he has been, and this episode was the result of it. now he has to show there is a clear chain of command. I would lock rush away absolutly, any work he would do should be under armed guard. he is clearly willing to put other peoples live on the line for personal purposes and can not be trusted.

as for the military responce, pistol whipping one guy was far from overkill, in fact i was supprised how much restraint was given, after what they tried they would have felt betrayed by the very people they have been laying their lives down for so they could take control and play boss. I woulda pistol whipped the first person who didnt back down also to show them its no luaghing matter, there are concequences for such actions. actions that can ultimatly cost the lives of everyone on the ship.

as young said, they need to live with these people, pistol whipping was more then justified, iim supprised it was only one person tbh and in reality it probubly would have been more with how long it took them to actually hit the floor. expecially knowing at least one of them was armed. but since they still have to live with these people I would only punish the ringleaders. and it wouldnt be a small slap on the wrist, command needs to show that there are reprocussions and you cant just try and take over the ship because you dont like the way its done, in this sort of situation democracy gets you killed, plain and simple. fighting over leadership also gets you killed.

taking back the ship and sending everyone to their rooms with no punishment is basically saying, you loose, we win today... better luck tomorrow. because if theres no concequences, why not try again? what have you got to loose? nothing at all.

I agree with you. Young has been too weak in his leadership. He has bent over backwards to be accommodating and gentle with the civilians. Look what it has got him an attempted coup. In Justice Young let Wray walk all over him. He blatantly told Scott “I will not govern with force”. Instead of exerting control and fighting an obvious attempt at framing to undermine his authority he steps aside and gives her command. It wasn’t until the Kino was discovered that he stood up to Wray. Rush and Wray have made it clear through their actions that they are not going to stop until they have wrested command away from him. On the planet he reacted in anger and left Rush there, throwing away the moral justification he had to lock him (and potentially Wray) up (I suspect she was complicit in the framing.) and begin to exert a much needed tighter control.

In Divided Rush manipulates Wray and the other gullible civilians into staging a premature coup because he wants Young out of command. He knew when it came out that he had been implanted with a tracking device Young would do what it takes to turn it off. I feel for Rush but that device was a clear and immediate danger to everyone on the ship. Young absolutely did the right thing to have it immediately removed regardless of the consequences to Rush.

Young has been too gentle and unfortunately does have anger issues. Rush deserved a harsh disciplining and needed to be put under a very tight leash. He should never have left Rush on the planet and lied about it. He gave Wray the ammunition she needed to reassert her grab for power. At this point I think Young has lost the moral authority he needs to continue in command. In a real world situation stepping down under the authority of Earth Command and allowing another like Scott or TJ to replace him would be what is best for everyone on the Destiny and would remove the justification Wray and Rush will continue to use to undermine the military’s command. But since SGU is a soapy Sci-Fi show that probably isn’t what is going to happen.

EllieVee
April 12th, 2010, 05:20 AM
I agree with you. Young has been too weak in his leadership. He has bent over backwards to be accommodating and gentle with the civilians. Look what it has got him an attempted coup. In Justice Young let Wray walk all over him. He blatantly told Scott “I will not govern with force”. Instead of exerting control and fighting an obvious attempt at framing to undermine his authority he steps aside and gives her command. It wasn’t until the Kino was discovered that he stood up to Wray. Rush and Wray have made it clear through their actions that they are not going to stop until they have wrested command away from him. On the planet he reacted in anger and left Rush there, throwing away the moral justification he had to lock him (and potentially Wray) up (I suspect she was complicit in the framing.) and begin to exert a much needed tighter control.

Except that he has been from the beginning. Searching people's rooms is ruling by force. Telling people that there's going to be a lottery for their lives is ruling by force. Ordering people about is ruling by force.


In Divided Rush manipulates Wray and the other gullible civilians into staging a premature coup because he wants Young out of command. He knew when it came out that he has been implanted with a tracking device Young would do what it takes to turn it off. I feel for Rush but that device was an immediate and clear danger to everyone on the ship. Young absolutely did the right thing to have it immediately remove regardless of the consequences to Rush.

Incorrect. He forces Wray's coup to go early because he knows the aliens will turn up and he's afraid, very much afraid, that Young's reaction will be to kill him. And let's face it, he had reason to think so, particularly when Young pointed a gun at his head, told TJ to 'get it out of him' when she was not qualified, and his little wonder boy Scott would have ripped it out of Rush's chest if TJ had been unable to finish the operation.


Young has been too gentle and unfortunately does have anger issues. Rush deserved a harsh disciplining and needed to be put under a very tight leash. He should never have left Rush on the planet and lied about it. He gave Wray the ammunition she needed to reassert her grab for power. At this point I think Young has lost the moral authority he needs to continue in command. In a real world situation stepping down under the authority of Earth Command and allowing another like Scott or TJ to replace him would be what is best for everyone on the Destiny and would remove the justification Wray and Rush will continue to use to undermine the military’s command. But since SGU is a soapy Sci-Fi show that probably isn’t what is going to happen.

Young has been a paranoid thug. He won't get replaced because people on Destiny are too scared of him.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 12th, 2010, 05:42 AM
ElliVee,

Young isn't a thug and doesn't want to be a dictator. I think he's a man in a position he didn't want, wasn't prepared for, and is simply overwhelmed. On top of everything anger and impulse control issues. This is why shareing power with other's makes sense. It provides checks for each of the power blocs and helps defuse Young's impluse control issues.

The trimuverate Young, Rush, Wray isn't a bad idea. If Rush is too controversial, he is a manipulator, put Volker in that position. He's bright and trusted by the other scientists.

Blackhole
April 12th, 2010, 06:00 AM
Except that he has been from the beginning. Searching people's rooms is ruling by force. Telling people that there's going to be a lottery for their lives is ruling by force. Ordering people about is ruling by force.

Guess what, he is in charge. Making tough decisions is what commanders do. In the Light the ship’s destruction was thought to be imminent. The lottery was the fairest method to give some a chance to survive. And if you remember he took his name out of the drawing.


Incorrect. He forces Wray's coup to go early because he knows the aliens will turn up and he's afraid, very much afraid, that Young's reaction will be to kill him. And let's face it, he had reason to think so, particularly when Young pointed a gun at his head, told TJ to 'get it out of him' when she was not qualified, and his little wonder boy Scott would have ripped it out of Rush's chest if TJ had been unable to finish the operation.

The tracking device put the ship in immediate grave danger and unfortunately needed to be removed right away, regardless of the consequences to Rush. He wasn't going to tell anyone besides Chloe about it, luckily for everyone Eli said something, otherwise the ship would soon be attacked again. And lo and behold, Young didn't toss him out of an airlock. Using the stones he had a doctor from Earth come on board to perform the surgery and Rush survived just fine.


Young has been a paranoid thug. He won't get replaced because people on Destiny are too scared of him.

Young hasn't been paranoid or a thug. Every one of Young's concerns came true. And with the exception of marooning Rush he has never used excessive force on anyone on the Destiny.

Lord Hurin
April 12th, 2010, 06:08 AM
He didn't disobey anything with regard to the chair - Wray was in charge and gave him control over his science team, so they began study of the chair.

An excellent point. He did disregard Young's previous command though. At this point, Rush didn't know much more than the function of the device so Young's concerns were valid. As were Eli's who said that version 1.0 is usually "the most buggy." Rush manipulated events to allow himself access to the chair after it was cut off. Not a direct violation of Young's orders (especially since Young was no longer in charge) but still kinda cheeky.

myhelix
April 12th, 2010, 06:12 AM
Rush´s OR was punishment enough. ;)

Lord Hurin
April 12th, 2010, 06:19 AM
Except that he has been from the beginning. Searching people's rooms is ruling by force. Telling people that there's going to be a lottery for their lives is ruling by force. Ordering people about is ruling by force.

How would you have liked to have seen those situations occur? "Umm, this is Col. Young. If anyone stole any food or water, pretty please return it. That'd be so darn nice. Kthxbye" or "Hey guys, we can save 16 of the people here. Anyone who wants to live, please line up at the shuttle door in a civilized manner. Thanks"

I don't think either of those situations would have worked. Especially the shuttle one; there would have been a riot. Everyone thought that they were more qualified, more deserving to have a spot on there.


Incorrect. He forces Wray's coup to go early because he knows the aliens will turn up and he's afraid, very much afraid, that Young's reaction will be to kill him. And let's face it, he had reason to think so, particularly when Young pointed a gun at his head, told TJ to 'get it out of him' when she was not qualified, and his little wonder boy Scott would have ripped it out of Rush's chest if TJ had been unable to finish the operation.

So Young made the wrong decision? Rush was afraid, probably justifiably, but still. He withheld information that was endangering the crew. Period. And Young didn't just shoot him, did he? He probably knew there was a chance that Rush could die during the operation, but it wasn't a certainty.


Young has been a paranoid thug. He won't get replaced because people on Destiny are too scared of him.

He shouldn't be replaced anyway. He should be supplemented; ie, shared leadership.

hisg1fans
April 12th, 2010, 06:20 AM
spankings...lots of spankings..

LOL :D

I want to watch, but then I don't. But, I want to watch this.....but then I don't. Oh the dilemma ;)

hisg1fans
April 12th, 2010, 06:21 AM
I doubt he will do much to discipline them. He'll probably try to work out some kind of deal with Wray since in previous episodes he said he doesn't want to factionalize the crew.

I liked how he made them do a little walk of shame past him at the end there but most of them will probably be willing to try again. All they have to do is plug that hole and their home free ;)

I liked this too. And think that will be the end of any "punishment" he gives out to the general public.

I do see Young having a big meeting and showing the kino footage of Rush and Wray plotting and of Rush trying to frame Young and humiliating the two of them in front of all of the other civilians. We'll see next week.

Personally, I would punish Wray by giving her what she wants. Make her deal with all of the petty squabbles if the civilians, which can get very petty and childish in the best of circumstances let alone in extreme situations like this, and free myself up to make the larger decisions. Make her find more water for the showers, or better tasting food, or writing up the KP duty roster, etc. Make her darn my socks ;)

With Rush, I don't know what I'd do. He needs to be monitored, but he also needs to work. After showing the kino footage, maybe a day or two in his room alone. Maybe just keep a kino on him 24/7 where everyone can see it and know it is happening. Maybe limiting his contact with Wray and keeping other scientists, who know the clear priorities of the work to be done, with him at all times. That's a tough call.

hiro
April 12th, 2010, 07:09 AM
*coughs*

I think our thread might be evidence of that, Lahela ...

:D

of course he had a mind control device why do you think that ladies start talking with him ? =D

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 08:02 AM
I agree with you. Young has been too weak in his leadership. He has bent over backwards to be accommodating and gentle with the civilians. Look what it has got him an attempted coup.
Please name all of these things where he allegedly bent over backwards to accommodate or "be gentle" with the civilians.

Lord Hurin
April 12th, 2010, 08:04 AM
Please name all of these things where he allegedly bent over backwards to accommodate or "be gentle" with the civilians.

Please provide a list of all the times when their pleas for accommodation fell on deaf ears or when Young was "rough" with civilians. Let's leave out the Rush incident, as it's been discussed to death.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 08:07 AM
Please provide a list of all the times when their pleas for accommodation fell on deaf ears or when Young was "rough" with civilians. Let's leave out the Rush incident, as it's been discussed to death.
Why? I never said he denies the will of the civilians on a regular basis. You, however, made the claim that he has bent over backwards to accommodate them, which is a blatant lie/exaggeration seeing as how we've almost never ever see the civilians (besides Rush) actually make any demands of Young, at least not to such an extent that he had to "bend over backwards" to accommodate them.

Don't even try to strawman me. You made a claim. I asked you substantiate it. Don't change your argument just because you can't support it.

Lord Hurin
April 12th, 2010, 08:15 AM
Why? I never said he denies the will of the civilians on a regular basis. You, however, made the claim that he has bent over backwards to accommodate them, which is a blatant lie/exaggeration seeing as how we've almost never ever see the civilians (besides Rush) actually make any demands of Young, at least not to such an extent that he had to "bend over backwards" to accommodate them.

Don't even try to strawman me. You made a claim. I asked you substantiate it. Don't change your argument just because you can't support it.

I didn't make that claim, it was someone else. I've been asking in just about every thread if someone can remember a time when a civilian came to Young with a concern or question and he was rebuked. It was an honest question really, not a "you don't know what you're talking about" because I can't think of anything.

I don't know what a "strawman" is, but I'll say again: I wasn't the one who you first replied to and I didn't make any allegations of Young either "bending over backwards" for the civilians or denying them basic rights. I, like you, was asking for some substantiation one way or the other.

Please don't get so confrontational without knowing who it is you mean to confront.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 08:19 AM
I didn't make that claim, it was someone else.
Fine, they made the claim. Then you demanded I subtantiate an entirely different claim for no reason. You still strawmanned me.


I've been asking in just about every thread if someone can remember a time when a civilian came to Young with a concern or question and he was rebuked. It was an honest question really, not a "you don't know what you're talking about" because I can't think of anything.
We work with what the show gives us. Unless you're calling Wray a liar, Young controls everything, even when and where people can sleep. And he does so without consulting anyone (apparently). And we've seen a lot of things from Wray, but we've never seen her lie to anyone.


I don't know what a "strawman" is, but I'll say again: I wasn't the one who you first replied to and I didn't make any allegations of Young either "bending over backwards" for the civilians or denying them basic rights. I, like you, was asking for some substantiation one way or the other.
For a claim I never made.


Please don't get so confrontational without knowing who it is you mean to confront.
This is because you routinely strawman me. You're doing it right now in three different threads.

A strawman is taking someone's argument and then changing it to another, more easy argument to defeat. You routinely reply to my posts by either changing your own arguments so that they are no longer ludicrous or by changing/willfully misinterpreting what I just said to fit with your counter-arguments better.

Lahela
April 12th, 2010, 10:35 AM
An excellent point. He did disregard Young's previous command though. At this point, Rush didn't know much more than the function of the device so Young's concerns were valid. As were Eli's who said that version 1.0 is usually "the most buggy." Rush manipulated events to allow himself access to the chair after it was cut off. Not a direct violation of Young's orders (especially since Young was no longer in charge) but still kinda cheeky.

He's certainly not one to let an opportunity pass him by ;)

Tuvok
April 12th, 2010, 11:29 AM
Why in the name of all that glitters do people keep dragging out this blatant untruth??? They GAVE them food and water for Pete's sake! In exchange for Eli. :rolleyes:

Yeah but most of them thought it was a bad idea. They didn't intend to give them food and water untill they wanted something. They would have been happier not giving it. They would have withheld except they needed Eli.

Lahela
April 12th, 2010, 11:45 AM
Yeah but most of them thought it was a bad idea. They didn't intend to give them food and water untill they wanted something. They would have been happier not giving it. They would have withheld except they needed Eli.

The coup was only hours old, if that. Perhaps some of them thought they were caving in too soon, I don't know. But there's no evidence to say they would have withheld them for long, just as there's no evidence that Young et al would have turned off life support. It's the stating as fact what is clearly not fact that gets me when people claim "the civilians withheld food and water". That's all.

beafly
April 12th, 2010, 12:00 PM
Rush has proved yet again that he cannot be trusted. At this point he shouldn't' be allowed anywhere near a Destiny console. Confined to quarters under armed guard. Allowed to consult with Eli on matters of Destiny. That's about it.

Same with Wray I think until everyone has had a chance to report to their superiors via the stones. Force the IOA and SGC mediate and sort out the command issue.

I believe punishment for the rest of the crew would be counter-productive. More likely internal negotiations would be more appropriate. Hear all thier concerns. Genuinely address them. Start to build confidence in the current leadership.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 12:44 PM
Rush has proved yet again that he cannot be trusted. At this point he shouldn't' be allowed anywhere near a Destiny console. Confined to quarters under armed guard. Allowed to consult with Eli on matters of Destiny. That's about it.

Same with Wray I think until everyone has had a chance to report to their superiors via the stones. Force the IOA and SGC mediate and sort out the command issue.
Yet Young should retain command with no punishment? Really? Your bias is showing.

Wray has done relatively little of dubious morality. Meanwhile, Young has raped, assaulted and attempted to murder people. If Wray needs to be locked up, so does Young.

Blackhole
April 12th, 2010, 01:53 PM
Please name all of these things where he allegedly bent over backwards to accommodate or "be gentle" with the civilians.

Rush is a civilian. He and Wray could be considered the head ones. After Rush deliberately stranded everyone Young took no disciplinary action towards him which imo he more than deserved.

When Rush planted false data about the Icarus type planet Young took no disciplinary action towards him which imo he more than deserved.

Young disobeyed Stargate Command at great risk to his career when he felt their plan wasn’t safe. He also fought to retain everyone’s personal visits.

When Rush planted the gun in Young’s quarters he allowed a hearing by Wray when it was clear she was more interested in railroading him then getting at the truth. Against the advice of Scott he even agreed to step down to avoid the appearance of impropriety. He didn’t have to and imo was far too accommodating to her.

He clearly indicated to Scott that he refused to govern by force when Scott and others of the military contingent thought he should have.

He defended Volker (I believe) when Spencer was roughing him up.

He took his name out of the lottery because he felt it was the honorable thing to do.

He tried to keep Rush from hurting someone with the chair because he knew Rush was in a hurry to figure it out and someone would probably end up injured. It isn’t clear how much Rush had to do with the civilian ending up in the chair but the simple fact remains a member of his team under his watch is still in a coma from it. Young badly wants to go home too; he could have let Rush do his experiment and let someone be sacrificed if necessary; instead he tried to keep them all safe.

He went to the planet to confront Rush personally about the framing to try to get him to cooperate. Rush responded in no uncertain terms that he would never stop doing so. Young lost his temper and marooned him. Imo Rush deserved a very harsh punishment for trying to frame Young and undermine his command. If Rush had relented Young would never have left him. Young made a mistake and never should have left him and Rush had no business provoking him like he did.

A lot posters accuse Young of attempted murder when he marooned Rush. The issue is complex but in all fairness their claim has some validity. I do find it surprising that the same posters don’t level the same accusation at Rush. He deliberately stranded 80 plus people on the Destiny when it could easily have been avoided by dialing a Milky Way Gate instead. His unilateral and unauthorized choice has resulted in 5-6 deaths. By the same logic Rush is guilty of murder and the disruption of the lives of everyone on board plus their families on Earth. Rush’s action carried consequences far in excess of Young’s action. Rush survived his marooning. These same posters would show far more intellectual honesty if they acknowledged this obvious fact and condemned Rush as much as they have condemned Young.

In the recent coup attempt he was very gentle with the mutineers. He would have been well with in his right to shoot one of them. We will have to see if he subjects them to any punishment.

beafly
April 12th, 2010, 01:56 PM
To be clear. I do not necessarily think that Young some sort of little angel. He has demonstrated on a number of occasions that he is a sack of crap just like the rest of them.

He is however the commander in charge. And still is even after the attempted mutiny.

He should man up, report ALL the happenings to the general and relieve himself of command.

But until that time... he needs to maintain order aboard the ship. Removing Rush and Wray from the general population would help.

I've seen the rape discussions. Your opinion has been debated ad nausea. Wray is just as guilty by even your own standards.

mgbland
April 12th, 2010, 03:31 PM
Young needs to make sure that they don't pull this type of thing again. For starters, he needs to have guards on the food and water.

Ringleaders need 30 days in solitary, with gruel and water. Or maybe purple potatoes and water.

mgbland
April 12th, 2010, 03:49 PM
I've got it! Rush and Wray must be confined in solitary until they have knit six new pairs of socks each for Young and one new pair for each of the military personnel.

Mr-Universe69
April 12th, 2010, 03:49 PM
Rape, Rape who said Young raped anybody? IMO Yound despite leaving Rush, whom I believe as demonstrated in "Divided", would once again put someone else in harm to advance his wanting to learn everything about Destiney plus at all off world, which they are, military is in charge with civilian advise. Rush is the problem and Wray would sell Rush out if she could find someone to control the counsels as he does. They both are not to be trusted. Yound despite his past and temper still puts the interests of others before his.

mgbland
April 12th, 2010, 03:51 PM
Lock them up together, and force them to have sex with each other. They need to start having children for their replacements, and for Wray, her clock is ticking. The only thing Rush is good for is DNA anyway.

hiro
April 12th, 2010, 03:58 PM
Lock them up together, and force them to have sex with each other. They need to start having children for their replacements, and for Wray, her clock is ticking. The only thing Rush is good for is DNA anyway.

:lol: little Wray/Rush running around the ship ... no thanks =D

we all should agree that both leaders have done good and bad things ... but Young can't give away his power ( a hole'll be made) he has to talk with Wray and Rush to find a solution ... it's the only logical way ...

haloplayer
April 12th, 2010, 04:30 PM
Rape, Rape who said Young raped anybody? IMO Yound despite leaving Rush, whom I believe as demonstrated in "Divided", would once again put someone else in harm to advance his wanting to learn everything about Destiney plus at all off world, which they are, military is in charge with civilian advise. Rush is the problem and Wray would sell Rush out if she could find someone to control the counsels as he does. They both are not to be trusted. Yound despite his past and temper still puts the interests of others before his.

List of Youngs BAD ACTIONS

1. Rape...yes he did rape. Rape is having sex with someone's body without there permission. Young did this with Telford's body when he used the body to have sex with his wife. Males CAN get raped to. Young still does not seem to regret this action because he see's no wrong in it. If this is not Rape then what is?

2. Used deception and used another body to beat up Telford. How immature.

3. Attempted to murder Rush. Very ironic for the setting of "Justice". If it wasn't for the aliens Rush would be dead.

Tuvok
April 12th, 2010, 04:38 PM
List of Youngs BAD ACTIONS

1. Rape...yes he did rape. Rape is having sex with someone's body without there permission. Young did this with Telford's body when he used the body to have sex with his wife. Males CAN get raped to. Young still does not seem to regret this action because he see's no wrong in it. If this is not Rape then what is?

2. Used deception and used another body to beat up Telford. How immature.

3. Attempted to murder Rush. Very ironic for the setting of "Justice". If it wasn't for the aliens Rush would be dead.

Huh , Okay.

Hmmmmmm...so Wray a rapist as well then . Cause no one her and Sharon just made out on sofa. Even if they had not, she was using a womans body who knows may have been a devout christian hetrosexual to make out with her .

Telford used the fact that Young was lightyears away just to break up his marriage. Then when Yong decided to confront him about cut the connection. Not exactly mature there.

And Rush attempted to have Young up for murder. Murder all in a power play. Should Young have marooned him , nope. But that was in the heat of passion. The crap that Rush pulls is coldly methodical.

{{ Shrug}}

No saints here, just us fish.

haloplayer
April 12th, 2010, 04:56 PM
Huh , Okay.

Hmmmmmm...so Wray a rapist as well then . Cause no one her and Sharon just made out on sofa. Even if they had not, she was using a womans body who knows may have been a devout christian hetrosexual to make out with her .

Telford used the fact that Young was lightyears away just to break up his marriage. Then when Yong decided to confront him about cut the connection. Not exactly mature there.

And Rush attempted to have Young up for murder. Murder all in a power play. Should Young have marooned him , nope. But that was in the heat of passion. The crap that Rush pulls is coldly methodical.

{{ Shrug}}

No saints here, just us fish.

We never saw Wray have sex with Sharon, so we don't know.

And just because Telford was being a prick does not justify rape. You cant justify Rape at ALL.

And what Rush did was wrong to frame Young...but not as bad as actually trying to murder someone.

rlr149
April 12th, 2010, 05:07 PM
keelhaul them

Tuvok
April 12th, 2010, 05:08 PM
We never saw Wray have sex with Sharon, so we don't know.

And just because Telford was being a prick does not justify rape. You can justify Rape at ALL.

And what Rush did was wrong to frame Young...but not as bad as actually trying to murder someone.

No , we just saw them made out and cuddle. If your a hetrosexual christian women and you found that out. You would feel violated.

The whole Rush as rape thing. Let's be honest . You may have a point there, or may not . But the whole Telford wasn't being a prick. He was trying to destroy a mans marriage . A man who tried to fight for it but got disconnected.

What Young did was maroon Rush. Young wasn't trying to murder someone. The guy is a professional soldier, he could kill Rush with his thumb. Literally. As trying to compare not as bad as..it is cause and effect. You try to hurt someone and they will try to hurt you back. Its doesn't make sense. Because it's human.

{{ Shrug}}

No saints here, just us fish.

haloplayer
April 12th, 2010, 05:25 PM
No , we just saw them made out and cuddle. If your a hetrosexual christian women and you found that out. You would feel violated.

The whole Rush as rape thing. Let's be honest . You may have a point there, or may not . But the whole Telford wasn't being a prick. He was trying to destroy a mans marriage . A man who tried to fight for it but got disconnected.

What Young did was maroon Rush. Young wasn't trying to murder someone. The guy is a professional soldier, he could kill Rush with his thumb. Literally. As trying to compare not as bad as..it is cause and effect. You try to hurt someone and they will try to hurt you back. Its doesn't make sense. Because it's human.

{{ Shrug}}

No saints here, just us fish.

Of course, its not murder. How could anyone think that marooning Rush on a desert planet with NO WAY BACK is Murder? Even though Young did not give Rush food or water after he knocked him out, does not mean he WANTED Rush not to survive. You may ask why did Young not give him that portable DHD if he wanted Rush to survive? The answer is he forgot.

I think its a little to harsh to say that Young left Rush for dead, knowing there was no way to get back to the Destiny. After all if Rush died of starvation its not Young's fault right? Sure he never gave him food but its Rush's own fault for not finding food and water on a DESERT PLANET.
/sarcasm

Telford was being a prick when he was trying to break up Young's relationship with his wife. That's what i meant. Still does not justify the rape of his body.

nx01a
April 12th, 2010, 05:30 PM
It's not a matter of punishing or controlling the civilians. The soldiers can't rule by force or operate the ship's systems while the civilians can't defend themselves adequately. They need each other and some sort of power sharing agreement has to be worked out, not keeping the civilians in their rooms unless they're working or otherwise disciplining them. I have no idea how they're going to do it, but the crew has to come to a compromise before they all die from infighting power struggles and not focusing on survival.

If they MUST be punished... Make them run more laps. Fat scientists. :D

Daro
April 12th, 2010, 05:33 PM
Of course, its not murder. How could anyone think that marooning Rush on a desert planet with NO WAY BACK is Murder? Even though Young did not give Rush food or water after he knocked him out, does not mean he WANTED Rush not to survive. You may ask why did Young not give him that portable DHD if he wanted Rush to survive? The answer is he forgot.

I think its a little to harsh to say that Young left Rush for dead, knowing there was no way to get back to the Destiny. After all if Rush died of starvation its not Young's fault right? Sure he never gave him food but its Rush's own fault for not finding food and water on a DESERT PLANET.
/sarcasm

Telford was being a prick when he was trying to break up Young's relationship with his wife. That's what i meant. Still does not justify the rape of his body.

I'm in total agreement. Leaving a man that way, on an alien desert planet, is normally a death sentance. If you're going to murder a man, shoot him and leave it at that. It's a lot kinder than slowly dying of dehydration or getting mauled to death by whatever native predator finds you.

And unless there is some agreement that we haven't been privy to, the people who are using other folk's bodies to have sex are doing absolutely the wrong thing. So are their partners.

Tuvok
April 12th, 2010, 05:40 PM
Of course, its not murder. How could anyone think that marooning Rush on a desert planet with NO WAY BACK is Murder? Even though Young did not give Rush food or water after he knocked him out, does not mean he WANTED Rush not to survive. You may ask why did Young not give him that portable DHD if he wanted Rush to survive? The answer is he forgot.

I think its a little to harsh to say that Young left Rush for dead, knowing there was no way to get back to the Destiny. After all if Rush died of starvation its not Young's fault right? Sure he never gave him food but its Rush's own fault for not finding food and water on a DESERT PLANET.
/sarcasm

Telford was being a prick when he was trying to break up Young's relationship with his wife. That's what i meant. Still does not justify the rape of his body.

Hmmmm.

I admit it. It was a murder attempt. A very poor one as well. Which, considering it was good for Rush.

But , Telford was being more then a prick . Much more .

But then as also pointed out by yourself does NOT justify the use of his body without consent for happy time. Neither does it excuse Wray and both Rush and Wray partners as well.

Seriously, they should do one episode where they enter a body and an airman hands them a folder with information of the body stating what limits they could do. As in your body is a heterosexual female who gives you limit 2 use. You can drink , eat what you want but no shannigins. Or Your body donar has not specified anything but given you level 7 use. Sex, drink etc. He is being paid a triple bonus. But nothing including his butt.

Sign here , here and here.

Off you go.

Blackhole
April 12th, 2010, 06:16 PM
Hmmmm.

I admit it. It was a murder attempt. A very poor one as well. Which, considering it was good for Rush.

But , Telford was being more then a prick . Much more .

But then as also pointed out by yourself does NOT justify the use of his body without consent for happy time. Neither does it excuse Wray and both Rush and Wray partners as well.

Seriously, they should do one episode where they enter a body and an airman hands them a folder with information of the body stating what limits they could do. As in your body is a heterosexual female who gives you limit 2 use. You can drink , eat what you want but no shannigins. Or Your body donar has not specified anything but given you level 7 use. Sex, drink etc. He is being paid a triple bonus. But nothing including his butt.

Sign here , here and here.

Off you go.

It would be a great episode!

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 12th, 2010, 06:35 PM
Tuvok,

It would certianly raise more hackles if they had a homosexual male visting his lover via the stones, wouldn't it?

FallenAngelII
April 13th, 2010, 12:07 AM
After Rush deliberately stranded everyone Young took no disciplinary action towards him which imo he more than deserved.
This is bending over backwards to "accommodate" the civilians? No, it wasn't. He wasn't doing that to appease the civilians or even a civilian at all. He knew that despite his loathing for Rush, Rush was their best bet at getting back home. He routinely shut down Rush's requests, ideas and limited his access to several things because he didn't trust him.


When Rush planted false data about the Icarus type planet Young took no disciplinary action towards him which imo he more than deserved.
Again, it's Rush. And he's vital to the survival of the mission.


Young disobeyed Stargate Command at great risk to his career when he felt their plan wasn’t safe. He also fought to retain everyone’s personal visits.
This was in order to accommodate the civilians how? It was for their survival. Also, "retaining everyone's personal visits" =/= Fighting for civilians.


When Rush planted the gun in Young’s quarters he allowed a hearing by Wray when it was clear she was more interested in railroading him then getting at the truth.
He had no choice. He was under suspicion of murder. And I'm pretty sure the folks back home ordered the hearing.


Against the advice of Scott he even agreed to step down to avoid the appearance of impropriety.
It's not accommodating the civilians. It's doing what is right.


He clearly indicated to Scott that he refused to govern by force when Scott and others of the military contingent thought he should have.
Yet in "Divided", he did.


He defended Volker (I believe) when Spencer was roughing him up.
You call this bending over backwards to accommodate the civilians?! It's one person protecting another person who was accosting them for no reason!


He took his name out of the lottery because he felt it was the honorable thing to do.
Has nothing to do with the civilians. After all, the military was still in the lottery.


He tried to keep Rush from hurting someone with the chair because he knew Rush was in a hurry to figure it out and someone would probably end up injured.
Not about protecting the civilians. It was about protecting people in general.


He went to the planet to confront Rush personally about the framing to try to get him to cooperate. Rush responded in no uncertain terms that he would never stop doing so. Young lost his temper and marooned him. Imo Rush deserved a very harsh punishment for trying to frame Young and undermine his command. If Rush had relented Young would never have left him. Young made a mistake and never should have left him and Rush had no business provoking him like he did.
What does this to do with anything?!


A lot posters accuse Young of attempted murder when he marooned Rush. The issue is complex but in all fairness their claim has some validity.
Some validity?!


I do find it surprising that the same posters don’t level the same accusation at Rush. He deliberately stranded 80 plus people on the Destiny when it could easily have been avoided by dialing a Milky Way Gate instead.
He had no idea they would be stranded. His main motivation was not to strand them! He didn't deliberately strand anyone, unless you think he's psychic.


His unilateral and unauthorized choice has resulted in 5-6 deaths.
He has never done anything for the purpose of killing someone. Those deaths were accidental and unplanned for. Rush's motivation is never to hurt someone (except for the framing incident). Intent. It's all about intent.


Rush survived his marooning.
Which is why it's attempted murder.


In the recent coup attempt he was very gentle with the mutineers. He would have been well with in his right to shoot one of them.
No he wouldn't. And he knew that if he did, there was no going back. The civilians would refuse to work with him willingly ever again.

So, this post was a lot of "Who Shot John?". You named a whole bunch of things that were either:
* Young accommodating/protecting everyone on the ship.
* Young not punishing Rush (despite the fact that he tried to keep Rush on as tight a leash as he could. He friggin' installed Eli as his spy!)
* Doing the right thing (like relinquishing power for the duration of the trial).
* A bunch of things which had nothing to do with anything

Only 1-2 points on that list was valid as episodes where Young did something to "accommodate" the civilians.


No , we just saw them made out and cuddle. If your a hetrosexual christian women and you found that out. You would feel violated.
It's still not rape.


The whole Rush as rape thing. Let's be honest . You may have a point there, or may not .
After being raped!

EllieVee
April 13th, 2010, 04:56 AM
I didn't make that claim, it was someone else. I've been asking in just about every thread if someone can remember a time when a civilian came to Young with a concern or question and he was rebuked. It was an honest question really, not a "you don't know what you're talking about" because I can't think of anything.

End of Water.

Daro
April 13th, 2010, 05:02 AM
And I would add to that "Light," when he threatened to take Wray's name out of the lottery because her suggestion offended him.

EllieVee
April 13th, 2010, 05:18 AM
And I would add to that "Light," when he threatened to take Wray's name out of the lottery because her suggestion offended him.

Straight out bullying behaviour.

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 07:43 AM
This is bending over backwards to "accommodate" the civilians? No, it wasn't. He wasn't doing that to appease the civilians or even a civilian at all. He knew that despite his loathing for Rush, Rush was their best bet at getting back home. He routinely shut down Rush's requests, ideas and limited his access to several things because he didn't trust him.

It is clear that the reason Young was easy on the discipline was to maintain morale. He said as much on numerous occasions. He could have been far tougher on the civilians to keep them in line.

Everything Young did for Rush and the other civilians was of course for appeasement purposes. His goal was “to bring to a state of peace or quiet”. Rush deserved to be disciplined and Young refrained from utilizing harsh discipline to maintain Rush's and the other civilian's cooperation to appease them.

It helps to understand the meanings of words when you use them. It would give your arguments at least a semblance of logic. Their definitions follow:

Morale:
1 : moral principles, teachings, or conduct
2 a : the mental and emotional condition (as of enthusiasm, confidence, or loyalty) of an individual or group with regard to the function or tasks at hand b : a sense of common purpose with respect to a group : esprit de corps
3 : the level of individual psychological well-being based on such factors as a sense of purpose and confidence in the future

Appease:
1 : to bring to a state of peace or quiet : calm
2 : to cause to subside : allay <appeased my hunger>
3 : pacify, conciliate; especially : to buy off (an aggressor) by concessions usually at the sacrifice of principles
synonyms see pacify

That is because Rush was untrustworthy which he has demonstrated repeatedly.


Again, it's Rush. And he's vital to the survival of the mission.

No Rush lied and fabricated the Icarus Planet fiction. Young was well within his rights to discipline him. He chose not to, to avoid friction with the other civilians. He “appeased” them.


This was in order to accommodate the civilians how? It was for their survival. Also, "retaining everyone's personal visits" =/= Fighting for civilians.

He did what was right and protected everyone on board from a reckless rescue plan. Of course his purpose was to further their survival. That is his primary goal as commander. Clearly you don’t understand the distinction of acting towards a goal and the “manner” or “method” or “how” this action is carried out or brought to fruition or accomplished. “Accommodate” and “appease” refers to the “how” or “method” of his actions.


He had no choice. He was under suspicion of murder. And I'm pretty sure the folks back home ordered the hearing.

Young was in command he had all the choice he wanted. He didn’t have to allow the hearing he did it to appear above board. Nothing was mentioned about Earth’s reaction to the whole affair. Please provide a direct quote if you disagree.


It's not accommodating the civilians. It's doing what is right.

Young had no obligation to step down irrespective of what Wray and the other civilians thought. Only Earth would have the authority to remove him from command. They would have to conduct an investigation and have a trial before removing him from command. Finding a gun in Young’s quarters was pretty weak evidence. Young would have been far too smart to leave a gun in his quarters if he had just shot Spencer. Scott acknowledged this and told Young he didn’t think he should step down. Young stepped down to prevent a loss of confidence in him as commander and to prevent a schism from developing over it. He said point blank to Scott that he refused to govern by force. If anything proves my point his statement to Scott certainly does.

How do you know what is right? From any reading of this forum one can easily and obviously ascertain that “what is right” is far from clear and differs from person to person each expressing their own view of it.


Yet in "Divided", he did.

I have already indicated that I thought his action was a mistake. That was one incident and was a complex situation. Rush had just admitted responsibility for attempting to frame their commanding officer for murder to remove them from command. You call that nothing? I think you need to remove yourself from your fantasy world just a bit and talk to a military attorney. Ask them what would be the legal ramifications if a military personnel tried to do the same thing to their commanding officer?


You call this bending over backwards to accommodate the civilians?! It's one person protecting another person who was accosting them for no reason!

Yes it showed he was concerned about the proper use of force by the military to a civilian. Spencer was way out of line and Young tied into him about it.


Has nothing to do with the civilians. After all, the military was still in the lottery.

Not about protecting the civilians. It was about protecting people in general.

Young demonstrated that the lottery was being conducted as fair as possible. It certainly does indicate that he was doing everything he could to be reasonable for everybody. In case it isn't clear civilians are part of everybody.


What does this to do with anything?!

It demonstrated that the marooning was a very complex situation and Rush extremely provoked him. His action was wrong but did have mitigating circumstances.


Some validity?!

Yes some validity. The situation is complex.


He had no idea they would be stranded. His main motivation was not to strand them! He didn't deliberately strand anyone, unless you think he's psychic.

Of course he had an idea they would be stranded. It was by far the most likely scenario. Rush sent them to an unknown and likely extremely dangerous gate as opposed to a known gate where everyone would have been safe. The logic of this conclusion is obvious, irrefutable and was explained in great detail by me in an earlier post. Look it up.


He has never done anything for the purpose of killing someone. Those deaths were accidental and unplanned for. Rush's motivation is never to hurt someone (except for the framing incident). Intent. It's all about intent.

No the deaths were the consequence of everyone being sent to the Destiny and are a direct result of Rush choosing to dial the Destiny gate as opposed to a much closer one in the Milky Way Galaxy that would have gotten everyone home safely.


Which is why it's attempted murder.

“?” That is what I said.


No he wouldn't. And he knew that if he did, there was no going back. The civilians would refuse to work with him willingly ever again.

That is why he was “appeasing” them and trying to protect "morale". He was trying to prevent a potentially catastrophic schism in the crew which Rush and Wray brought about anyway for their own self-serving motives. Please review above definitions one more time.


So, this post was a lot of "Who Shot John?". You named a whole bunch of things that were either:
* Young accommodating/protecting everyone on the ship.
* Young not punishing Rush (despite the fact that he tried to keep Rush on as tight a leash as he could. He friggin' installed Eli as his spy!)
* Doing the right thing (like relinquishing power for the duration of the trial).
* A bunch of things which had nothing to do with anything

Only 1-2 points on that list was valid as episodes where Young did something to "accommodate" the civilians.

In Divided Rush manipulates Wray and the other gullible civilians into staging a premature coup because he wants Young out of command. He knew when it came out that he had been implanted with a tracking device Young would do what it takes to turn it off. I feel for Rush but that device was a clear and immediate danger to everyone on the ship. Rush by not having the courage to admit he had a tracking device inside him put everyone's life at grave risk. Young absolutely did the right thing to have it immediately removed regardless of the consequences to Rush. And he survived just fine.

Wray indicated and confirmed as much when she found out about the tracking device.

Nope many more points than 1-2.

Nothing proves my point more than the way Young handled the most recent mutiny. Instead of locking everyone of the civilians up he sent them all back to their quarters. If this action doesn’t show you "appeasement" or "bending over backwards to accommodate" the civilians then nothing I can ever say will and I am wasting my time. You obviously hate Young and are going to ignore or dismiss or misunderstand any fact or argument that doesn’t support your view.

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 08:04 AM
And I would add to that "Light," when he threatened to take Wray's name out of the lottery because her suggestion offended him.

Wray was trying to convince Young to pick the crew because she was afraid to leave her seat to chance. Young recognized this immediately and called her on it by threatening to remove her name ahead time. The look on her face showed she was terrified and she backed down immediately. She was acting very cowardly and showed her true colors.

I want to add that Young voluntarily removing his name from the lottery was an extremely courageous act.

hiro
April 13th, 2010, 08:12 AM
Which is why it's attempted murder.


It's not ! He left Rush ... only left him in a planet , don't forget that we have a ship and a stargate in that planet. It's not like he shoot him or attach a bomb and he can escape ... is just about leaving him on a planet it's a very bad impulsive decision but it's not attempted murder.

hiro
April 13th, 2010, 08:14 AM
Wray was trying to convince Young to pick the crew because she was afraid to leave her seat to chance. Young recognized this immediately and called her on it by threatening to remove her name ahead time. The look on her face showed she was terrified and she backed down immediately. She was acting very cowardly and showed her true colors.

I want to add that Young voluntarily removing his name from the lottery was an extremely courageous act.

i agree to that! ... we can't put Wray in leadership alone ... he has proven that's a normal civilian who wants to get home and that she has no purpose of sacrificing himself if it's needed ...

Tuvok
April 13th, 2010, 08:15 AM
Tuvok,

It would certianly raise more hackles if they had a homosexual male visting his lover via the stones, wouldn't it?

Unfortunately.

Lets be honest for most channels its ok for lesbians to make out. But quite rare for a romantic male on male scenerio to play out. At least not in the Stargate Verse.

Unless , Syfy want to prove me wrong?

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 09:02 AM
It's not ! He left Rush ... only left him in a planet , don't forget that we have a ship and a stargate in that planet. It's not like he shoot him or attach a bomb and he can escape ... is just about leaving him on a planet it's a very bad impulsive decision but it's not attempted murder.

Very good point.

Rush’s unilateral and unauthorized action to send everyone to an unknown vastly distant gate has resulted in 5-6 deaths so far. That is murder in my book.

If there are any attorneys on board I would like to hear your legal opinions on if his action would qualify as “murder”.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 09:09 AM
Blackhole,

How would Rush dial the gate? Rush had no tools but his bare hands how could Young reasonably believe Rush could get into the ship, get the ship operating, that the ships life support would work for humans, etc...?

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 09:15 AM
Blackhole,

How would Rush dial the gate? Rush had no tools but his bare hands how could Young reasonably believe Rush could get into the ship, get the ship operating, that the ships life support would work for humans, etc...?

No he had his backpack with him. He put it down before he started working on the alien ship and Young didn’t return with it. We suspect (from his conversation with Young) that Rush took a Communication Stone with him to the planet. I think it is very likely he also took a portable DHD device with him as well. Young would know this and would also know it would greatly increase his chances of survival.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 09:20 AM
Blackhole,

Where could he stash a DHD that people wouldn't notice? You didn't address my points about relying on the ship.

FallenAngelII
April 13th, 2010, 09:23 AM
It is clear that the reason Young was easy on the discipline was to maintain morale. He said as much on numerous occasions. He could have been far tougher on the civilians to keep them in line.

Everything Young did for Rush and the other civilians was of course for appeasement purposes. His goal was “to bring to a state of peace or quiet”. Rush deserved to be disciplined and Young refrained from utilizing harsh discipline to maintain Rush's and the other civilian's cooperation to appease them.
This has nothing to do with "bending over backwards to accommodate the civilian population". The argument was that Young has "bent over backwards to accommodate the civilian population". Not that he did a lot of things to help the population in general but that he did a lot to things specifically for the civilian population. When I asked for instances of this, I was given a list of hogwash.


Again see above. Of course his purpose was to further their survival. That is his primary goal as commander. Clearly you don’t understand the distinction of acting towards a goal and the “manner” or “method” or “how” this action is carried out or brought to fruition or accomplished. “Accommodate” and “appease” refers to the “how” or “method” of his actions.
You know, it really helps when you're trying to refute someone to actually read exactly what it is they are saying. Because you're refuting points I never really made. Which is called strawmanning.

I know what every single one of those words means. English is my 3rd language. Is it your 9th?

Your original argument was:
Young has bent over backwards to accommodate the civilian population. When asked to prove this ridiculous claim, you presented a list full of things that were merely Young doing his duty as a commander and trying to make the situation as comfortable as possible in general for everyone and not just the civilians in particular.

Now prove that one instead of trying to make me look bad by insinuating that my grasp of the English language is anything less than stellar, especially for a polyglot who speaks three languages fluently (2 more on an OK-ish level), whereof English is his third language (my mother tongue being Vietnamese, my second language being Swedish due to re-location at the age of six and my third language being English, which I began learning at the age of three).

Sorry, try again.


Young was in command he had all the choice he wanted. Nothing was mentioned about Earth’s reaction to the whole affair. Please provide a direct quote if you disagree.
If Wray went to the brass back on Earth, they would've removed him from command at least for the duration of the trial. It's how the law works in the U.S.

Also, he did not willingly give up command just because. He didn't just go "Oh, Wray wants command? Alright!". He did it because of circumstances that arose! I argued that he would never willingly just give up his command just because someone wanted him to. And he didn't.

He did it to prevent a civilian mutiny since they wouldn't have stood for it if he'd demanded to retain command while under suspicion of murder.


How do you know what is right? From any reading of this forum one can easily and obviously ascertain that “what is right” is far from clear and differs from person to person each expressing their own view of it.
I'm sorry, are you seriously arguing that it is not doing "what is right" when a military officer in command of a military operation relinquishes (even temporarily) his command because he's currently under suspicion of murder and is going to stand trial for it?


That was one episode with a very complex situation which you have obviously ignored.
Please go and re-read my post and re-read all of my future posts at least 3 times before replying to them lest you strawman me again either on purpose or through sheer skimming.


Rush had just admitted responsibility for attempting to frame their commanding officer for murder to remove them from command. You call that nothing? I think you need to remove yourself from your fantasy world just a bit and talk to a military attorney. Ask them what would be the legal ramification if a military personnel tried to do the same thing to their commanding officer.
It all becomes clear now. You chose to completely ignore what I was replying to in other to strawman me into infinity in your quest to refute every little thing I said.

I'm sorry, did you even bother to read any of the things I quoted? Because I quoted them for a reason: I am replying to those quotes!

"He defended Volker (I believe) when Spencer was roughing him up."

You wrote that. Did you just forget about it?! You claimed that Young defending Volker from Spencer was an instance of Young "bending over backwards to accommodate a civilian". No it wasn't. He was defending one human being from being assaulted by another human being for no reason (bumping into them in a hallway).


Because Young was demonstrating fairness to everyone doesn’t change anything.
You claimed he's bent over backwards specifically in order to accommodate the civilian population. Try proving that instead of simply proving that he's done things to make life easier for everyone (which any good commander should do).


Of course he had an idea they would be stranded.
He had a suspicion, but he had no way of knowing. No one did.


It was by far the most likely scenario. Rush sent them to an unknown and likely extremely dangerous gate as opposed to a known gate where everyone would have been safe. The logic of this conclusion is obvious and irrefutable and was explained in great detail by me in an earlier post. Look it up.
The main reason was not to get people hurt, despite your claim otherwise. Stop changing your argument every single time it is refuted!


“?” That is what I said.
You were using "Rush survived his marooning." as some kind of defense.


That is why he was “appeasing” them and trying to protect morale. He was trying to prevent a potentially catastrophic schism in the crew which Rush and Wray brought about anyway for self-serving motives. Please review above definition one more time.
Overall morale! He wasn't doing anything specifically for, and only for the civilian population!


In Divided Rush manipulates Wray and the other gullible civilians into staging a premature coup because he wants Young out of command. He knew when it came out that he had been implanted with a tracking device Young would do what it takes to turn it off. I feel for Rush but that device was a clear and immediate danger to everyone on the ship. Young absolutely did the right thing to have it immediately removed regardless of the consequences to Rush.
What does this have to do with the argument at hand, really? Did even watch the episode? The reason why Rush didn't immediately reveal it to the rest of the crew was because he was afraid Young would throw him off the ship, considering what he did in the past.


Nope many more points than 1-2. See above.
No, not really. Try harder. Or simply try using better arguments and less strawmans.


It's not ! He left Rush ... only left him in a planet , don't forget that we have a ship and a stargate in that planet. It's not like he shoot him or attach a bomb and he can escape ... is just about leaving him on a planet it's a very bad impulsive decision but it's not attempted murder.
Out of all of the planets in that galaxy, that was the best planet the Destiny could find for them. Let's just assume that the other gated planets are pretty desolate and deserted and equally as uninhabitable as well. No vegetation, no abundance of food, etc. And that's assuming Rush had stashed a portable DHD in his backpack, which he had no reason to. He had a communications stone with him for good reason, by why would he think he'd need a DHD?

What, do you think he's pre-scient and knew Young would attempt to murder him shortly?

The ship was broken. I doubt that Young intended for Rush to survive the marooning, that he was going to be able to fix the ship and... well, and then what? Fly blindly through space, trying to find his way to an inhabited galaxy?

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 09:26 AM
Blackhole,

Where could he stash a DHD that people wouldn't notice? You didn't address my points about relying on the ship.

As I said he had a backpack with him and the DHD device would be inside it along with the Communication Stone.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 10:01 AM
Blackhole,

I'll have to rewatch the end of "Justice". I don't recall a backpack. Then again didn't Col. Young come through the gate with something in his hand?

FallenAngelII
April 13th, 2010, 10:05 AM
Blackhole,

I'll have to rewatch the end of "Justice". I don't recall a backpack. Then again didn't Col. Young come through the gate with something in his hand?
There is no reason for Young to assume that Rush had a D.H.D. device with him. For that matter, there was no reason for Rush to even have a D.H.D. device with him. Why would he stash an extra one? Did he suspect Young was going to maroon him on that planet?

This whole line of argument is absurd and pure speculation.

hiro
April 13th, 2010, 10:20 AM
Out of all of the planets in that galaxy, that was the best planet the Destiny could find for them. Let's just assume that the other gated planets are pretty desolate and deserted and equally as uninhabitable as well. No vegetation, no abundance of food, etc. And that's assuming Rush had stashed a portable DHD in his backpack, which he had no reason to. He had a communications stone with him for good reason, by why would he think he'd need a DHD?

wait ... they only send a team on foot we don't know the dimensions of the planet and if there was something in another side of the planet. And you can't assume that other planets were pretty bad ! the destiny pick up the best but you don't know if there's a big deference about the best and the second one ! Like you don't know the patterns that destiny use to choose a planet .



What, do you think he's pre-scient and knew Young would attempt to murder him shortly?

i don't understand this .



The ship was broken. I doubt that Young intended for Rush to survive the marooning, that he was going to be able to fix the ship and... well, and then what? Fly blindly through space, trying to find his way to an inhabited galaxy?
Again , you don't know if the ship was entirely broken ( or maybe only the door). Like you don't know if was an inhabited galaxy .

Lahela
April 13th, 2010, 11:14 AM
As I said he had a backpack with him and the DHD device would be inside it along with the Communication Stone.

Rush may very well have a DHD with him... but where exactly was he going to dial to? And if he did manage to dial a planet where he could survive for the next 40-odd years he could expect to live, is it any more justifiable for Young to have unilaterally sentenced him to life imprisonment?

Young had no right, no matter how justifiable anyone thinks it to be, to sentence Rush to anything. He is not judge, jury and executioner - as many people here frequently point out, Young is in contact with Earth and therefore his acting outside the realms of the law is simply not acceptable. Fullstop.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 11:17 AM
Hiro,

Young had no idea whether the ship could be entered, if it would fly, if it was occupied, or if it was capable of sustaining a human life. How could Young reasonably assume Rush could use the ship to survive after he was marooned?

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 11:38 AM
This has nothing to do with "bending over backwards to accommodate the civilian population". The argument was that Young has "bent over backwards to accommodate the civilian population". Not that he did a lot of things to help the population in general but that he did a lot to things specifically for the civilian population. When I asked for instances of this, I was given a list of hogwash.


You know, it really helps when you're trying to refute someone to actually read exactly what it is they are saying. Because you're refuting points I never really made. Which is called strawmanning.

I know what every single one of those words mean. English is my 3rd language. Is it your 9th?

Your original argument was:
Young has bent over backwards to accommodate the civilian population. When asked to prove this ridiculous claim, you presented a list full of things that were merely Young doing his duty as a commander and trying to make the situation as comfortable as possible in general for everyone and not just the civilians in particular.

Now prove that one instead of trying to make me look bad by insinuating that my grasp of the English language is anything less than stellar, especially for a polyglot who speaks three languages fluently (2 more on an OK-ish level), whereof English is his third language (my mother tongue being Vietnamese, my second language being Swedish due to re-location at the age of six and my third language being English, which I began learning at the age of three).

Sorry, try again.


If Wray went to the brass back on Earth, they would've removed him from command at least for the duration of the trial. It's how the law works in the U.S.

Also, he did not willingly give up command just because. He didn't just go "Oh, Wray wants command? Alright!". He did it because of circumstances that arose! I argued that he would never willingly just give up his command just because someone wanted him to. And he didn't.

He did it to prevent a civilian mutiny since they wouldn't have stood for it if he'd demanded to retain command while under suspicion of murder.


I'm sorry, are you seriously arguing that it is not doing "what is right" when a military officer in command of a military operation relinquishes (even temporarily) his command because he's currently under suspicion of murder and is going to stand trial for it?


Please go and re-read my post and re-read all of my future posts at least 3 times before replying to them lest you strawman me again either on purpose or through sheer skimming.


It all becomes clear now. You chose to completely ignore what I was replying to in other to strawman me into infinity in your quest to refute every little thing I said.

I'm sorry, did you even bother to read any of the things I quoted? Because I quoted them for a reason: I am replying to those quotes!

"He defended Volker (I believe) when Spencer was roughing him up."

You wrote that. Did you just forget about it?! You claimed that Young defending Volker from Spencer was an instance of Young "bending over backwards to accommodate a civilian". No it wasn't. He was defending one human being from being assaulted by another human being for no reason (bumping into them in a hallway).


You claimed he's bent over backwards specifically in order to accommodate the civilian population. Try proving that instead of simply proving that he's done things to make life easier for everyone (which any good commander should do).


He had a suspicion, but he had no way of knowing. No one did.


The main reason was not to get people hurt, despite your claim otherwise. Stop changing your argument every single time it is refuted!


You were using "Rush survived his marooning." as some kind of defense.


Overall morale! He wasn't doing anything specifically for, and only for the civilian population!


What does this have to do with the argument at hand, really? Did even watch the episode? The reason why Rush didn't immediately reveal it to the rest of the crew was because he was afraid Young would throw him off the ship, considering what he did in the past.


No, not really. Try harder. Or simply try using better arguments and less strawmans.


Out of all of the planets in that galaxy, that was the best planet the Destiny could find for them. Let's just assume that the other gated planets are pretty desolate and deserted and equally as uninhabitable as well. No vegetation, no abundance of food, etc. And that's assuming Rush had stashed a portable DHD in his backpack, which he had no reason to. He had a communications stone with him for good reason, by why would he think he'd need a DHD?

What, do you think he's pre-scient and knew Young would attempt to murder him shortly?

The ship was broken. I doubt that Young intended for Rush to survive the marooning, that he was going to be able to fix the ship and... well, and then what? Fly blindly through space, trying to find his way to an inhabited galaxy?

I rewrote my post that this reply is addressing to make it clearer. Feel free to edit your reply in response and I will then take a look at it.

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 11:46 AM
Blackhole,

I'll have to rewatch the end of "Justice". I don't recall a backpack. Then again didn't Col. Young come through the gate with something in his hand?

I remember clearly that Rush put down his backpack when he arrived at the ship and Young didn't bring anything through the gate with him.

The Shrike
April 13th, 2010, 11:52 AM
Air LockPoor choice for escalating a conflict, especially when the people you're threatening to do it to are more qualified at operating said airlocks than you are.

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 11:53 AM
There is no reason for Young to assume that Rush had a D.H.D. device with him. For that matter, there was no reason for Rush to even have a D.H.D. device with him. Why would he stash an extra one? Did he suspect Young was going to maroon him on that planet?

This whole line of argument is absurd and pure speculation.

In Divided Young told Rush that he must have taken a Communication Stone with him. It was the only explanation as to how when they tried to contact Earth that Young exchanged with an alien instead.

If Rush was worried enough to take a Communication Stone with him in his backpack I think it almost certain that he would also take a portable DHD device with him as well.

This whole line of argument is not absurd and is far from pure speculation.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 12:03 PM
Blackhole,

Given that a missing stone would be easy to establish, look in the box if one is missing there will be an empty nook in the box, why was that accusation speculative?

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 12:04 PM
Rush may very well have a DHD with him... but where exactly was he going to dial to? And if he did manage to dial a planet where he could survive for the next 40-odd years he could expect to live, is it any more justifiable for Young to have unilaterally sentenced him to life imprisonment?

Young had no right, no matter how justifiable anyone thinks it to be, to sentence Rush to anything. He is not judge, jury and executioner - as many people here frequently point out, Young is in contact with Earth and therefore his acting outside the realms of the law is simply not acceptable. Fullstop.

I agree that he made a mistake marooning him there and lying about it. However Rush was guilty of trying to frame him for murder. This is serious offense and deserved a very harsh punishment. I think Young was within his right as commander to maroon him if he chose to. On three masted sailing ships of the past if a member of the crew tried something comparable I think the captain would have been within his right to hang them for it.

And having a DHD device with him does imo significantly reduce the cold bloodiness of the act.

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 12:09 PM
Blackhole,

Given that a missing stone would be easy to establish, look in the box if one is missing there will be an empty nook in the box, why was that accusation speculative?

You are right we don't know if Young looked inside the box or not, but there would need to be one of them missing. It wasn't mentioned by Young in their conversation.

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 13th, 2010, 12:09 PM
What disciplinary actions should Young take towards Rush, Wray and the other civilians to maintain order and prevent another coup attempt?

Young is in a delicate position. He could come down on them hard, but he needs them, not only to work on getting them home, but in the general society sense, as they don't know how long they'll be stuck. There could be no repurcussions, which would be a mistake, IMO. He's got to tread carefully, and win over the poeple that Rush/Wray have been playing head games with, and he can best do that by NOT coming down on them hard but in continuing to be fair and level headed.

(why oh why does "The beatings will continue until morale improves!" keep going through my head? heehee)

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 12:13 PM
Blackhole,

If Young was in the right when he maroon Rush, why lie about it, then plan to lie to his superiors?

jelgate
April 13th, 2010, 12:14 PM
Blackhole,

If Young was in the right when he maroon Rush, why lie about it, then plan to lie to his superiors?

Just because something is right does not mean its widely accpeated by the society.

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 12:22 PM
Blackhole,

If Young was in the right when he maroon Rush, why lie about it, then plan to lie to his superiors?

I didn’t say he was right to lie about it. I said he was within his purview as commander to decide to openly maroon him as punishment for the attempted framing. I wouldn’t agree that marooning him was appropriate but just that he would have the authority to do so openly.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 12:25 PM
Blackhole,


I didn’t say he was right to lie about it. I said he was within his purview as commander to decide to openly maroon him as punishment for the attempted framing. I wouldn’t agree that marooning him was appropriate but just that he would have the authority to do so openly.

You didn't answer my question. I understand you think it was wrong to lie. I'm asking why lie at all if what Young did was well within his authority. Why plan to lie to his superiors on Earth if what Young did was well witihin his authority?

Jelgate,


Just because something is right does not mean its widely accpeated by the society.

Okay, he didn't want the crew at large to know, why lie to his superiors? Is lieing about command decisions to his superiors within Young's authority as well?

jelgate
April 13th, 2010, 12:28 PM
Okay, he didn't want the crew at large to know, why lie to his superiors? Is lieing about command decisions to his superiors within Young's authority as well?

He didn't lie to his superiors. At least I don't remember him reporting to Jack or the Pentagon

Lahela
April 13th, 2010, 12:35 PM
I agree that he made a mistake marooning him there and lying about it. However Rush was guilty of trying to frame him for murder. This is serious offense and deserved a very harsh punishment. I think Young was within his right as commander to maroon him if he chose to. On three masted sailing ships of the past if a member of the crew tried something comparable I think the captain would have been within his right to hang them for it.

And having a DHD device with him does imo significantly reduce the cold bloodiness of the act.

But he's not captaining a three masted sailing ship of the past, stuck months at sea away from any higher authority... He's on a space ship just a stone's touch away from his superiors and legal advice. His behaviour was inexcusable, immoral and illegal.

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 12:35 PM
Blackhole,

You didn't answer my question. I understand you think it was wrong to lie. I'm asking why lie at all if what Young did was well within his authority. Why plan to lie to his superiors on Earth if what Young did was well witihin his authority?

I think when Rush refused to relent after Young beat him up he got very angry and made a very bad decision which he later regretted. When he returned he didn't have the courage to own up to it so he lied. I think Young is an honorable man that made a horrible mistake. That is why I have said in past posts that imo he should step down under the authority of Earth Command and let someone else like Scott or TJ take over. I would have no problem with a civilian taking command if one was available that was worthy. Unfortunately there really isn't anyone qualified. Imo giving command to Rush or Wray would only make things far worse.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 12:36 PM
jelgate,


He didn't lie to his superiors. At least I don't remember him reporting to Jack or the Pentagon

He didn't as far as we know. However, he told Wray he planned to tell the same story when he reported in. Was he lieing to Wray or was he planning to lie to his superiors? He's starting to make a habit of lieing. He also framed Dr. Franklin for the attack on Col. Telford. Aren't Rush and Young starting to look as though they are cut from very similar, if not the same, cloth?

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 12:38 PM
Blackhole,


I think when Rush refused to relent after Young beat him up he got very angry and made a very bad decision which he later regretted. When he returned he didn’t have the courage to own up to it so he lied. I think Young is an honorable man that made a horrible mistake. That is why I have said in past posts that imo he should step down under the authority of Earth Command and let someone else like Scott or TJ take over. I would have no problem with a civilian taking command if one was available that was worthy. Unfortunately there really isn’t anyone qualified. Imo giving command to Rush or Wray would only make things far worse.

Let me get this straight. If Young comes throught the gate and says "I beat Rush unconsious and left him behind. Get to work." He's done nothing wrong, in your opinion?

Gollumpus
April 13th, 2010, 12:43 PM
Let me get this straight. If Young comes throught the gate and says "I beat Rush unconsious and left him behind. Get to work." He's done nothing wrong, in your opinion?

I'd be OUTRAGED!!! You're damn right he did something wrong. He didn't invite me along to help lay a beating on Rush. :P

regards,
G.

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 12:48 PM
Blackhole,

Let me get this straight. If Young comes throught the gate and says "I beat Rush unconsious and left him behind. Get to work." He's done nothing wrong, in your opinion?

No because his decision was made in anger and was inappropriate. If he had conducted a hearing on board and brought up all the charges against Rush and made a decision to maroon him I think it would have been within his purview as commander. As I have said, I think marooning him was too harsh of a punishment and would be stupid given the level of knowledge Rush possesses.

jelgate
April 13th, 2010, 12:48 PM
jelgate,



He didn't as far as we know. However, he told Wray he planned to tell the same story when he reported in. Was he lieing to Wray or was he planning to lie to his superiors? He's starting to make a habit of lieing. He also framed Dr. Franklin for the attack on Col. Telford. Aren't Rush and Young starting to look as though they are cut from very similar, if not the same, cloth?

He knows? I'm not going to start making accusations based on unknown information

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 12:50 PM
jelgate,


He knows? I'm not going to start making accusations based on unknown information

He knows or did you mean "who knows?"

Blackhole,


No because his decision was made in anger and was inappropriate. If he had conducted a hearing on board and brought up all the charges against Rush and made a decision to maroon him I think it would have been within his purview as commander. As I have said, I think marooning him was too harsh of a punishment and would be stupid given the level of knowledge Rush possesses.

Fair enough, I do see your point even if I disagree.

jelgate
April 13th, 2010, 12:53 PM
jelgate,



He knows or did you mean "who knows?"

I'm saying thier is no informtation to confirm of deny him lying to said superiors

hiro
April 13th, 2010, 12:53 PM
Hiro,

Young had no idea whether the ship could be entered, if it would fly, if it was occupied, or if it was capable of sustaining a human life. How could Young reasonably assume Rush could use the ship to survive after he was marooned?

Ok ! What i'm trying to point is that what Young did was not a attempt murder , it was the worst thing to do and i full disagree with it but it's not murder

Gollumpus
April 13th, 2010, 12:55 PM
As I've mentioned earlier, I don't believe any kind of disciplinary action should be taken by Young. He wants to make the situation go away or at the very least calm it way the heck down.

Yah know, with all the crap that Young is taking I'm not sure that he shouldn't just step down, have the military types stand down as well, and watch the results. As long as nothing goes on which threatens the ship, let the civilians do as they will. I'll bet you buck that within a short period of time there will be a knock at his door and someone demanding he come and settle something. And not to forget his gun.

regards,
G.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 01:00 PM
Hiro,


Ok ! What i'm trying to point is that what Young did was not a attempt murder , it was the worst thing to do and i full disagree with it but it's not murder

Young could not, reasonably, believe Dr. Rush would ever make it back to Destiny or Earth. It was attempted murder. Young couldn't have resonably believed he hadn't signed Rush's death warrent when he left him unconsious on the planet. I was trying to figure out how it could be something but murder but once the passion of the moment passed voluntary manslaughter is out. Rush is lying there unconsious and Young just runs for the gate. Maybe he could make a voluntary manslaughter argument but it would be tough to prove.

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 01:03 PM
Blackhole,

Fair enough, I do see your point even if I disagree.

What don't you agree with?

Do you think Rush is guilty of murder for unilaterally dialing the Destiny Gate instead of a Milky Way Gate that would have gotten everyone home safely?

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 13th, 2010, 01:03 PM
Blackhole,



You didn't answer my question. I understand you think it was wrong to lie. I'm asking why lie at all if what Young did was well within his authority. Why plan to lie to his superiors on Earth if what Young did was well witihin his authority?

Jelgate,



Okay, he didn't want the crew at large to know, why lie to his superiors? Is lieing about command decisions to his superiors within Young's authority as well?

I think he's protecting Rush and giving Rush a chance to be a better person. It seems that Young has a bunch of people under him that have less than impeccable pasts. I can see him wanting to 'keep it in the family'.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 01:09 PM
Blackhole,

I disagree he had the authority to maroon after a hearing.

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 01:13 PM
Blackhole,

I disagree he had the authority to maroon after a hearing.

I understand

Did you catch my other question to you?

Do you think Rush is guilty of murder for unilaterally dialing the Destiny Gate instead of a Milky Way Gate that would have gotten everyone home safely?

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 01:22 PM
blackhole,

No. No too many other intervening acts between the gate transit and the deaths. Now if Young had died in the transit I think Rush could be indicted for negligent homicide.

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 01:25 PM
blackhole,

No. No too many other intervening acts between the gate transit and the deaths. Now if Young had died in the transit I think Rush could be indicted for negligent homicide.

What would he be guilty of?

beafly
April 13th, 2010, 01:26 PM
Are Rush and Wray and the other involved civilians guilty of attempted murder for taking away the food supply and water of the military staff on the other side?

beafly
April 13th, 2010, 01:28 PM
If Rush had died of old age on that desert planet. Would Col Young still be guilty of attempted murder?

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 01:35 PM
Blackhole,

Probably of some sort of reckless endangerment.

Beafly,

No, Rush and Wray are not uilty of attempted murder. No one was deprived of water or food.

If Rush dies on the planet Youn is then guilty of murder. Heck Young was guilty of murder right up to the point they confired Rush was alive.

sgman
April 13th, 2010, 01:38 PM
I agree that he made a mistake marooning him there and lying about it. However Rush was guilty of trying to frame him for murder. This is serious offense and deserved a very harsh punishment. I think Young was within his right as commander to maroon him if he chose to. On three masted sailing ships of the past if a member of the crew tried something comparable I think the captain would have been within his right to hang them for it.


The point of the punishment would be a deterrent for other folks from doing something similar or stepping out of line. There was no sensible procedure followed...it was just bloodlust.

Possible he was expecting Rush to show remorse...or to say he'd go back in line. Rush also exasperated the situation with his "it will never end" statement...but the point is Young is the leader, and something like this should cause him to step down.

I'm not suggesting that is the best option..but this is where we are now.



And having a DHD device with him does imo significantly reduce the cold bloodiness of the act.

Really? Maybe I'll leave you in the jungle of Congo with a boat....because that is the equivalent.

jelgate
April 13th, 2010, 01:40 PM
Blackhole,

Probably of some sort of reckless endangerment.

Beafly,

No, Rush and Wray are not uilty of attempted murder. No one was deprived of water or food.

If Rush dies on the planet Youn is then guilty of murder. Heck Young was guilty of murder right up to the point they confired Rush was alive.

At most it would be manslaughter and even that is a stretch given the situation.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 01:47 PM
Jelgate,

If Rush died from the beating I'd agree. It's leavin him behind after Rush is knocked out that changes it IMO.

jelgate
April 13th, 2010, 01:50 PM
Jelgate,

If Rush died from the beating I'd agree. It's leavin him behind after Rush is knocked out that changes it IMO.

Abandoning a person is hardly murder. Their has to be an intent to kill. Which I don't think their was or he would have "finished" it.

prion
April 13th, 2010, 01:55 PM
Abandoning a person is hardly murder. Their has to be an intent to kill. Which I don't think their was or he would have "finished" it.

I got the distinct feeling that Young didn't give a rat's patootie if Rush died or lived when he left him on that planet and then came back and LIED to everyone that Young 'didn't make it'. So, by doing that, Young has lost a LOT of credibility as a leader.

So, it's basically a pot-kettle situation. Rush was bad, lying here and there or everywhere, framing Young for murder, and Young basically stranding Rush to an unfortunate death (and many people could view that as revenge issue - not suitable leadership material in that case).

As for discipline. Send people to their rooms? can't cut rations, etc. The thing, is the military may have the guns, but the scientists have the brains. I can't see Greer figuring out how to do hydroponics. ;)

Girlbot
April 13th, 2010, 01:58 PM
If Rush had died of old age on that desert planet. Would Col Young still be guilty of attempted murder?

Interesting thought. There was a case in Philadelphia a few months back. A guy shot a cop decades ago, and the cop was paralyzed from the bullet, but he lived for decades. He died a few months ago, and they charged the guy who shot him with murder right after that, cause they said the death was a result of the gunshot wound.

Daro
April 13th, 2010, 01:58 PM
Abandoning a person is hardly murder. Their has to be an intent to kill. Which I don't think their was or he would have "finished" it.

Knocking someone unconcious and stranding them in a desert, with no food, water, or supplies of any kind is at the very least negligent homicide. There was no reasonable expectation that Rush would survive, at least not if you're thinking about it realistically. If Rush had died, I'd think the crime would be more along the lines of second degree murder.
Young had a motive, a very compelling motive. In any court of law, that fact would be used against him rather than to defend his actions.
Since Rush didn't die, it's attempted murder, IMHO. Rush asks if Young is planning on trying to kill him again at the first opportunity. Young didn't respond by saying "I didn't try to kill you, I marooned you."
If Col. Young had really thought, at the start of "Space," that what he did was simply kick Rush off the ship, not sentence him to death, I doubt he'd have been so obviously guilt-wracked and tormented by it all.
I'm willing to cut Young slack, but not on that count. He absolutely lost control of himself and was not the normal, altruistic person he seems to be most of the time.

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 02:01 PM
Blackhole,

Probably of some sort of reckless endangerment.

Let us assume the crew makes it back to Earth tomorrow. What kind of time would Rush serve if the military chose to prosecute given that 5-6 people are now dead?

Daro
April 13th, 2010, 02:14 PM
Let us assume the crew makes it back to Earth tomorrow. What kind of time would Rush serve if the military chose to prosecute given that 5-6 people are now dead?

Hey there, glad to see you again. :)

I'm thinking Rush would not be charged with any crime, since the SG mission is secret and all. But for the sake of argument, I think he'd be charged with, at most, reckless endangerment. That can be a felony or a misdemenor. If found guilty, the maximum number of years he could be sentenced to varies, but it's generally about 5 years in cases where death resulted from the reckless act. Many people don't get that long of a sentence, though, often getting by with a few years of probation.

I think, though, that since the reckless act occurred in a way that had mitigating circumstances, and since Rush alone is not responsible for all the deaths (Palmer and Curtis chose to go through the stargate, Spencer killed himself, etc) then perhaps there wouldn't be a very solid case against him at all. The choice he made led to deaths, yes, but he was in the middle of a combat situation and did have orders or something equivalent to get through to the ninth chevron. One might be able to make a better case against SGC itself for failing to protect the base.

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 02:14 PM
Young could not, reasonably, believe Dr. Rush would ever make it back to Destiny or Earth. It was attempted murder. Young couldn't have resonably believed he hadn't signed Rush's death warrent when he left him unconsious on the planet. I was trying to figure out how it could be something but murder but once the passion of the moment passed voluntary manslaughter is out. Rush is lying there unconsious and Young just runs for the gate. Maybe he could make a voluntary manslaughter argument but it would be tough to prove.

What if Young had initially reported that he confronted him about the framing and Rush attacked and hit him in the head with a rock. We rolled and fought rendering Rush unconsciousness. I was dazed and weak and was unable to revive him and was too weak to carry him back. Time was short and I had no choice but to leave him on the planet and barely made it back to the gate in time. It was too bad that he didn't use that story he could claim it was self-defense and wouldn't have been caught lieing He did have evidence that Rush tried to frame him and there was a laceration from a rock strike on his forehead.

Maybe he will amend his story in his Earth report. Rush may not have been willing to call Young a liar because he could then be implicated in the framing attempt.

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 02:22 PM
Hey there, glad to see you again. :)

I'm thinking Rush would not be charged with any crime, since the SG mission is secret and all. But for the sake of argument, I think he'd be charged with, at most, reckless endangerment. That can be a felony or a misdemenor. If found guilty, the maximum number of years he could be sentenced to varies, but it's generally about 5 years in cases where death resulted from the reckless act. Many people don't get that long of a sentence, though, often getting by with a few years of probation.

I think, though, that since the reckless act occurred in a way that had mitigating circumstances, and since Rush alone is not responsible for all the deaths (Palmer and Curtis chose to go through the stargate, Spencer killed himself, etc) then perhaps there wouldn't be a very solid case against him at all. The choice he made led to deaths, yes, but he was in the middle of a combat situation and did have orders or something equivalent to get through to the ninth chevron. One might be able to make a better case against SGC itself for failing to protect the base.

Nice to see you on the board posting again.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 02:27 PM
Blackhole,

I don't know. If I were Rush I'd be more worried about the wrongful death lawsuits from the dead's families. I see some serious potential for liability there.

Girlbot
April 13th, 2010, 02:27 PM
Blackhole,

I don't know. If I were Rush I'd be more worried about the wrongful death lawsuits from the dead's families. I see some serious potential for liability there.
Class action

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 02:31 PM
Blackhole,

I don't know. If I were Rush I'd be more worried about the wrongful death lawsuits from the dead's families. I see some serious potential for liability there.

Good point I hadn't considered the civil side. Unfortunately, since the mission is classified the government probably would not allow them to go through.

Daro
April 13th, 2010, 02:33 PM
If it came to a class action suit, I think that SGC would be the better target. It's hard to sue the government, but a class action suit against Rush would prove pretty useless. He was working as an employee of SGC, and did what he was supposed to do when they put him on the project.

Besides, I doubt Rush will be easy to sue. I don't think he'll ever go back to Earth willingly. He'd probably rather die first.

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 02:35 PM
If it came to a class action suit, I think that SGC would be the better target. It's hard to sue the government, but a class action suit against Rush would prove pretty useless. He was working as an employee of SGC, and did what he was supposed to do when they put him on the project.

Besides, I doubt Rush will be easy to sue. I don't think he'll ever go back to Earth willingly. He'd probably rather die first.

He probably doesn't have any assets to speak of so it would be pointless.

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 13th, 2010, 02:42 PM
What if Young had initially reported that he confronted him about the framing and Rush attacked and hit him in the head with a rock. We rolled and fought rendering Rush unconsciousness. I was dazed and weak and was unable to revive him and was too weak to carry him back. Time was short and I had no choice but to leave him on the planet and barely made it back to the gate in time. It was too bad that he didn’t use that story he could claim it was self-defense and wouldn't have been caught lieing He did have evidence that Rush tried to frame him and there was a laceration from a rock strike on his forehead.

Maybe he will amend his story in the Earth report. Rush may not have been willing to call Young a liar because he could then be implicated in the framing attempt.

If Young had come forward with the fact that Rush had framed him for murder, I think it would be very hard for him and Rush to, at some point, put their differences aside and work for the better of the stranded, and that seems to be something Young is striving for (Is this over? Put things aside for the greater good). If he comes back and states exactly what happened on the planet, then he risks having his own men losing respect for him and not following him when leadership is needed. In either case, the crew would always be distrustful. Of course, people being what they are, they're already distrustful, but with none of them being either told what Rush did, or knowing the truth about what Young did, there;s a chance that, if both men wish it, that it can be put aside for the greater good and it never has to go on anyone's record. It essentially gets chalked up to bad tempers and they both move on.

Blackhole
April 13th, 2010, 02:48 PM
If Young had come forward with the fact that Rush had framed him for murder, I think it would be very hard for him and Rush to, at some point, put their differences aside and work for the better of the stranded, and that seems to be something Young is striving for (Is this over? Put things aside for the greater good). If he comes back and states exactly what happened on the planet, then he risks having his own men losing respect for him and not following him when leadership is needed. In either case, the crew would always be distrustful. Of course, people being what they are, they're already distrustful, but with none of them being either told what Rush did, or knowing the truth about what Young did, there;s a chance that, if both men wish it, that it can be put aside for the greater good and it never has to go on anyone's record. It essentially gets chalked up to bad tempers and they both move on.

There were a couple of scenes in Space where Rush is shown talking to people and is confirming Young's story about the rock slide. But if that is true why would the civilians have been willing to follow Rush and Wray into a coup?

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 13th, 2010, 02:53 PM
There were a couple of scenes in Space where Rush is shown talking to people and is confirming Young's story about the rock slide. But if that is true why would the civilians have been willing to follow Rush and Wray into a coup?

how many of those civilians were really "on side"? How many were just bickering and complaining about conditions and then all of a sudden, it's on and there's no backing out? How many were with the scientists simply because people tend to identify with groups? There's already a military vs civilian air here, on earth, where we aren't faced with hardship and danger. It would only get worse in the situation they're in. So how many would actually chhose it and how many just went along?

EllieVee
April 13th, 2010, 03:11 PM
Rush may very well have a DHD with him... but where exactly was he going to dial to? And if he did manage to dial a planet where he could survive for the next 40-odd years he could expect to live, is it any more justifiable for Young to have unilaterally sentenced him to life imprisonment?

Young had no right, no matter how justifiable anyone thinks it to be, to sentence Rush to anything. He is not judge, jury and executioner - as many people here frequently point out, Young is in contact with Earth and therefore his acting outside the realms of the law is simply not acceptable. Fullstop.

Amen, sister!


Let us assume the crew makes it back to Earth tomorrow. What kind of time would Rush serve if the military chose to prosecute given that 5-6 people are now dead?

None. You are assuming he would be found guilty and it's doubtful there's enough evidence to put him on trial let alone convict. It is an assumption (you can look that up in your dictionary, too) that Rush only dialled the ninth chevron for his own satisfaction because he has said (including to O'Neill) that it was too dangerous to dial Earth. Most of the things he has been accused of are speculation and speculation doesn't give you evidence.


He probably doesn't have any assets to speak of so it would be pointless.

Another assumption.

hiro
April 13th, 2010, 03:57 PM
Hiro,



Young could not, reasonably, believe Dr. Rush would ever make it back to Destiny or Earth. It was attempted murder. Young couldn't have resonably believed he hadn't signed Rush's death warrent when he left him unconsious on the planet. I was trying to figure out how it could be something but murder but once the passion of the moment passed voluntary manslaughter is out. Rush is lying there unconsious and Young just runs for the gate. Maybe he could make a voluntary manslaughter argument but it would be tough to prove.

Well so because he wont get back home and he maybe stuck on that planet we call this attempted murder ? It's about leaving someone in a planet , not in a jail full of lions. And if we look arround ... well they're a bunch of humans "prisoners" on a ship right? so either stay in the planet or in the ship ...

Orion475
April 13th, 2010, 04:07 PM
This episode left me extremely frustrated! I love SGU but everyone on board should work together for the sake of the crew and use the stones to communicate about the situation. General O'Neill would shout at them and tell them to suck it up! He would nominate someone to be leader and everyone must obey. This is absolutely getting out of hand.

Daro
April 13th, 2010, 05:43 PM
I think the point, Orion, is that SGU is not the same as the other two series. It is more of a character driven story. O'Neill has already had his say, and Young is in command despite that fact.

Even if O'Neill were to appoint someone to lead, how much does the opinion of a general on the other side of the universe matter when he cannot lend any material support in a survival situation? The Destiny and its crew are stuck, for better or worse, with what they have. They've got to work this out and solve their own problems, not wait for O'Neill or anyone else to solve it for them. Which is why I love SGU. It's frustrating, the military and civilian problem. But I have faith that it will be resolved, or at least some understanding will be reached soon. The writers know they can't keep it like this forever.

prion
April 13th, 2010, 08:24 PM
If it came to a class action suit, I think that SGC would be the better target. It's hard to sue the government, but a class action suit against Rush would prove pretty useless. He was working as an employee of SGC, and did what he was supposed to do when they put him on the project.

Besides, I doubt Rush will be easy to sue. I don't think he'll ever go back to Earth willingly. He'd probably rather die first.

I can't see lawsuits because some national security act or something or other would hide all the dirty deeds committed in space from those on Earth...

FallenAngelII
April 13th, 2010, 11:20 PM
wait ... they only send a team on foot we don't know the dimensions of the planet and if there was something in another side of the planet. And you can't assume that other planets were pretty bad ! the destiny pick up the best but you don't know if there's a big deference about the best and the second one ! Like you don't know the patterns that destiny use to choose a planet .
Young didn't either



i don't understand this .
People are making the outlandish claim that Rush probably stashed an extra D.H.D. device in his backpack. I'm asking why he would do that. An extra communications stones I can understand, but not an extra D.H.D. device because, really, he'd only do that if he was psychic and knew that Young would try to maroon him on the planet, thus he'd need an extra D.H.D. device to dial up the other planets in that galaxy.



Again , you don't know if the ship was entirely broken ( or maybe only the door). Like you don't know if was an inhabited galaxy .
It was not inhabited. Because the crew members would've been pretty excited about it and gone to that planet instead of this desert planet. The ship actually tells you what lives on a planet (if there's even life on it)!

Also, Young didn't know either. It wasn't Young's intention for Rush to survive that! He didn't intend for Rush to fix the ship or find intelligent life or settle down on a random planet with an abundance of food and water to live out an extremely boring and lonely life.

So stop engaging in wild speculation so you can grasp at straws to defend Young with, please. This was attempted murder.


I rewrote my post that this reply is addressing to make it clearer. Feel free to edit your reply in response and I will then take a look at it.
I do not feel your edits warrant any edits on my part. Reply to that post as it stands because your arguments remain just as invalid and ludicrous.

Try giving me examples of where Young specifically appeased the civilian population... by "bending over backwards". Not simply:
* Where he did what's best for the crew as a whole
* When he tolerated Rush because he knew he was their best chance for survival


In Divided Young told Rush that he must have taken a Communication Stone with him. It was the only explanation as to how when they tried to contact Earth that Young exchanged with an alien instead.

If Rush was worried enough to take a Communication Stone with him in his backpack I think it almost certain that he would also take a portable DHD device with him as well.

This whole line of argument is not absurd and is far from pure speculation.
Young speculation that Rush took a Communications Stone with him as "leverage". What purpose would an extra D.H.D. hold? Why would Rush even bother taking it with him on an innocuous mission with other civilians and witnesses present (witnesses Young dismissed so he could carry out his attempted murder).

The Communications Stone thing, not pure speculation. The D.H.D. thing, pure speculation. And it's absurd.

hiro
April 13th, 2010, 11:39 PM
People are making the outlandish claim that Rush probably stashed an extra D.H.D. device in his backpack. I'm asking why he would do that. An extra communications stones I can understand, but not an extra D.H.D. device because, really, he'd only do that if he was psychic and knew that Young would try to maroon him on the planet, thus he'd need an extra D.H.D. device to dial up the other planets in that galaxy.


thanks , i don't think that Rush take an extra D.H.D.




Also, Young didn't know either. It wasn't Young's intention for Rush to survive that! He didn't intend for Rush to fix the ship or find intelligent life or settle down on a random planet with an abundance of food and water to live out an extremely boring and lonely life.

So stop engaging in wild speculation so you can grasp at straws to defend Young with, please. This was attempted murder.


I don't pretend to defend Young , what he did is wrong ! so wrong !! i just want to point that its a bad decision but it's still not murder(attempted murder). He only left a mean behind ,because he didn't want him on the ship ! nothing more ....

EllieVee
April 13th, 2010, 11:43 PM
I don't pretend to defend Young , what he did is wrong ! so wrong !! i just want to point that its a bad decision but it's still not murder(attempted murder). He only left a mean behind ,because he didn't want him on the ship ! nothing more ....

And then Destiny flies away. Rush wakes to find himself alone on a desert planet without food or water or a way of dialling the gate (unless he had this mythical DHD in his pocket). When he rescues himself, he says, 'I'd have died out there.'

What exactly did you think would happen to Rush?

nx01a
April 14th, 2010, 12:30 AM
Young might as well have sealed him in his room with no food or water. Forever. Still dead. ;)

EllieVee
April 14th, 2010, 01:03 AM
Yeah but then he wouldn't have been able to lie about it.

FallenAngelII
April 14th, 2010, 01:10 AM
I don't pretend to defend Young , what he did is wrong ! so wrong !! i just want to point that its a bad decision but it's still not murder(attempted murder). He only left a mean behind ,because he didn't want him on the ship ! nothing more ....
Yes... and what did Young expect Rush to do on that desert planet without any visible vegetation?! No food, no water, no D.H.D. What, Young expected Rush to be able to fix the ship before he died of dehydration?

Blackhole
April 14th, 2010, 03:25 AM
I do not feel your edits warrant any edits on my part. Reply to that post as it stands because your arguments remain just as invalid and ludicrous.

Try giving me examples of where Young specifically appeased the civilian population... by "bending over backwards". Not simply:
* Where he did what's best for the crew as a whole
* When he tolerated Rush because he knew he was their best chance for survival

My reply presents my arguments as clearly as I can. Going back and forth with you when you ignore or dismiss or misunderstand my arguments wastes both of our time.


Young speculation that Rush took a Communications Stone with him as "leverage". What purpose would an extra D.H.D. hold? Why would Rush even bother taking it with him on an innocuous mission with other civilians and witnesses present (witnesses Young dismissed so he could carry out his attempted murder).

The Communications Stone thing, not pure speculation. The D.H.D. thing, pure speculation. And it's absurd.

For the same reason he had the Communication Stone in his backpack as opposed to leaving it hidden on the ship. As a means of contacting Earth should he be separated from the Destiny. A portable DHD for the same reason - to allow him to dial other gates should he be separated from the Destiny.

EllieVee
April 14th, 2010, 03:33 AM
For the same reason he had the Communication Stone in his backpack as opposed to leaving it hidden on the ship. As a means of contacting Earth should he be separated from the Destiny. A portable DHD for the same reason - to allow him to dial other gates should he be separated from the Destiny.

Except that saying 'Oh well' is not a confirmation that he had a stone. And where did this mythical stone come from given all the ones on Destiny are accounted for?

Blackhole
April 14th, 2010, 03:38 AM
Except that saying 'Oh well' is not a confirmation that he had a stone. And where did this mythical stone come from given all the ones on Destiny are accounted for?

The aliens had to have a stone for Young to have exchanged with one of them. Where would they have gotten one if not from Rush's backpack when he was captured by them?

How are you certain all the stones on Destiny are accounted for?

Lahela
April 14th, 2010, 03:40 AM
Except that saying 'Oh well' is not a confirmation that he had a stone. And where did this mythical stone come from given all the ones on Destiny are accounted for?

Indeed. Rush has shown before that he chooses to let people believe what they believe. He did the same thing at the end of Light, where the viewers clearly saw from his private reactions that he didn't know what was going to happen, but when Young confronted him about it he didn't deny it.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 14th, 2010, 04:16 AM
Hiro,


Well so because he wont get back home and he maybe stuck on that planet we call this attempted murder ? It's about leaving someone in a planet , not in a jail full of lions. And if we look arround ... well they're a bunch of humans "prisoners" on a ship right? so either stay in the planet or in the ship ...

Stuck on a planet with no food, water, limited possibility of shelter and no way Young could reasonably believe Rush could obtain those things? Yes, attempted murder because Young deliberately denied those necessary elements of life to Rush without any reasonable prospect of Rush finding those necessary elements to sustain his life. This is different from the attempt to take the ship because food and water were readily available to the people on the other side of the line, as soon as they laid down their weapons. This was not a reasonable possibility for Rush on that planet.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 14th, 2010, 04:22 AM
Blackhole,


For the same reason he had the Communication Stone in his backpack as opposed to leaving it hidden on the ship. As a means of contacting Earth should he be separated from the Destiny. A portable DHD for the same reason - to allow him to dial other gates should he be separated from the Destiny.

How would Rush power a communications stone without the little power station they have to be set upon to operate? Again if a Stone was missing why didn't Young say, "A stone is missing from the box."?

EllieVee
April 14th, 2010, 05:58 AM
The aliens had to have a stone for Young to have exchanged with one of them. Where would they have gotten one if not from Rush's backpack when he was captured by them?

How are you certain all the stones on Destiny are accounted for?

Have a look at the episode. When the box is open, all the stones are there.

beafly
April 14th, 2010, 06:12 AM
He probably doesn't have any assets to speak of so it would be pointless.

Besides, it's a pretty sure thing that EVERY person there basically signed their lives and rights away to get on that project.

EllieVee
April 14th, 2010, 06:49 AM
Besides, it's a pretty sure thing that EVERY person there basically signed their lives and rights away to get on that project.

Including all their assets? I somehow doubt that.

jelgate
April 14th, 2010, 07:01 AM
Indeed. Rush has shown before that he chooses to let people believe what they believe. He did the same thing at the end of Light, where the viewers clearly saw from his private reactions that he didn't know what was going to happen, but when Young confronted him about it he didn't deny it.
Maybe he was acting in case a KINO saw him:P

I say we lock Wray, Rush, and Young in a room into they agree to work together. Or until only one of them is alive. The latter seems more likely then the former.

beafly
April 14th, 2010, 07:20 AM
Including all their assets? I somehow doubt that.

I'm suggesting that they would have all signed a liability release accepting the extreme risks involved with the project. One of which would be death.

Blackhole
April 14th, 2010, 08:57 AM
Blackhole,

How would Rush power a communications stone without the little power station they have to be set upon to operate? Again if a Stone was missing why didn't Young say, "A stone is missing from the box."?

I don't think Stargate has clearly outlined how the stones work. The power station looked like something that we put together as opposed to the ancients but I am not certain. Why would Young accuse Rush of having a stone with him if he hadn't just counted them beforehand or been informed that one was missing. One would think the tech who operates the stones would notice that one of them is missing and contact Young immediately. If Rush didn't take one why didn't he just say so and tell Young to go and count them, especially when disproving his accusation would be so easy? If Rush did take one of them they must work without the power station or possibly only one side needs a station and Rush would just wait for the next time Earth contacted Destiny. What reason would the writers have to put that dialog in if it wasn't true and if so, why would Rush take it if it wouldn’t work without the power station? And if Rush didn't take the stone how did the connection happen with the aliens?

Blackhole
April 14th, 2010, 09:07 AM
Have a look at the episode. When the box is open, all the stones are there.

Are you referring to the episode Space?

EllieVee
April 14th, 2010, 09:10 AM
Are you referring to the episode Space?

Yes ... As others have in the thread. There are five stones. Five stones are in the case.

Orion475
April 14th, 2010, 10:58 AM
Yeah, i remember in the episode "Earth" that General O'Neill told Young that he is in charge and it is not a democracy aboard the ship. It's pretty apparent that the IOA will get there ass handed to them when they hear of the coup.

Daro
April 14th, 2010, 10:44 PM
Ok, I know I posted in another thread (or this one, I don't know) suggesting that Rush didn't take the stone, but simply said "Oh well." when accused because it doesn't matter what he says, Young would believe what he wanted to believe (and you can't really blame him there.)

But. In "Space," when Rush is reading the alien's mind and he sees all these images flashing by, including the ones of Chloe, there's one in there with the alien holding what looks to be a stone. This still makes it a mystery as to why, when Young tried to use the stones to go back, he didn't just end up switching bodies with Rush. Unless the neural interface device Rush was wearing prevented it. BTW, since he was wearing that, wouldn't he have been reading the alien's mind when it died? How awful.

EllieVee
April 14th, 2010, 10:46 PM
Yeah, i remember in the episode "Earth" that General O'Neill told Young that he is in charge and it is not a democracy aboard the ship. It's pretty apparent that the IOA will get there ass handed to them when they hear of the coup.

Unfortunately for O'Neill, he's not there and Young pretty much told him he would ignore any order he didn't like.

Blackhole
April 14th, 2010, 11:16 PM
Ok, I know I posted in another thread (or this one, I don't know) suggesting that Rush didn't take the stone, but simply said "Oh well." when accused because it doesn't matter what he says, Young would believe what he wanted to believe (and you can't really blame him there.)

But. In "Space," when Rush is reading the alien's mind and he sees all these images flashing by, including the ones of Chloe, there's one in there with the alien holding what looks to be a stone. This still makes it a mystery as to why, when Young tried to use the stones to go back, he didn't just end up switching bodies with Rush. Unless the neural interface device Rush was wearing prevented it. BTW, since he was wearing that, wouldn't he have been reading the alien's mind when it died? How awful.

Maybe he switched with the alien because the alien was the one holding the stone when the transference was initiated by Young.

Daro
April 14th, 2010, 11:20 PM
Jeez, even more messed up. Something tells me that the standard psychiatric care fallback of 'talking to TJ' isn't going to iron out all the issues Rush is going to develop from that.

When Rush told Young he was seeing "flashes, images" I wonder if he's seeing those things partly because of being linked, in one way or another, with the alien when it died? After all, the brain calls up all kinds of thing when it is dying. Rush did pause when he'd said that, and they played the eerie music a bit.

EllieVee
April 14th, 2010, 11:21 PM
Jeez, even more messed up. Something tells me that the standard psychiatric care fallback of 'talking to TJ' isn't going to iron out all the issues Rush is going to develop from that.

When Rush told Young he was seeing "flashes, images" I wonder if he's seeing those things partly because of being linked, in one way or another, with the alien when it died? After all, the brain calls up all kinds of thing when it is dying. Rush did pause when he'd said that, and they played the eerie music a bit.

Eerie music always indicates PTSD ... *gives a sage nod*

Daro
April 14th, 2010, 11:38 PM
Eerie music always indicates PTSD ... *gives a sage nod*

lol, of course it does. Besides that, Rush seems awfully jumpy anyways this episode. Back in the day, you could point a gun at him and he'd just sneer at you and go back to whatever he was doing. ;)

EllieVee
April 14th, 2010, 11:58 PM
lol, of course it does. Besides that, Rush seems awfully jumpy anyways this episode. Back in the day, you could point a gun at him and he'd just sneer at you and go back to whatever he was doing. ;)

And it was a great sneer.

FallenAngelII
April 15th, 2010, 06:01 AM
My reply presents my arguments as clearly as I can. Going back and forth with you when you ignore or dismiss or misunderstand my arguments wastes both of our time.
So, you believe you've "won" the argument by presenting almost zero evidence to back up your ludicrous claim after having most of your evidence eviscerated by my arguments. Have fun with that.

You have not, in any way substantiated your outlandish claim that Young has "bent over backwards to accommodate the civilians".


For the same reason he had the Communication Stone in his backpack as opposed to leaving it hidden on the ship. As a means of contacting Earth should he be separated from the Destiny. A portable DHD for the same reason - to allow him to dial other gates should he be separated from the Destiny.
1) No, that's not why he took the stone. Especially considering that unless he took the Communications Device with him, he'd have no way of contacting Earth! Also, as pointed out, it just more speculation on Young's part. Maybe the alien was connected because he'd probed Rush's mind.
2) And why would he ever think he'd get separated from the Destiny? And what would he hope to accomplish being stranded in a desolate and unihabited (because the Destiny didn't signal them that there were inhabitants there) galaxy)?


Maybe he switched with the alien because the alien was the one holding the stone when the transference was initiated by Young.
Only there was no stone in sight.

We play this "Blackhole makes stuff up with zero support while FallenAngelII eviscerates his poorly thought out arguments" all day, but it's lost its novelty by now.

Just because you're losing an argument doesn't mean that your best course of action is to begin to speculate wildly.

Blackhole
April 15th, 2010, 01:13 PM
So, you believe you've "won" the argument by presenting almost zero evidence to back up your ludicrous claim after having most of your evidence eviscerated by my arguments. Have fun with that.

You have not, in any way substantiated your outlandish claim that Young has "bent over backwards to accommodate the civilians".


1) No, that's not why he took the stone. Especially considering that unless he took the Communications Device with him, he'd have no way of contacting Earth! Also, as pointed out, it just more speculation on Young's part. Maybe the alien was connected because he'd probed Rush's mind.
2) And why would he ever think he'd get separated from the Destiny? And what would he hope to accomplish being stranded in a desolate and unihabited (because the Destiny didn't signal them that there were inhabitants there) galaxy)?


Only there was no stone in sight.

We play this "Blackhole makes stuff up with zero support while FallenAngelII eviscerates his poorly thought out arguments" all day, but it's lost its novelty by now.

Just because you're losing an argument doesn't mean that your best course of action is to begin to speculate wildly.

My initial assertion was "Young has bent over backwards to be accommodating and gentle with the civilians". You seem to have trouble understanding the meaning and usage of my terms. I will present the definitions for them:

Accommodate:
1 : to make fit, suitable, or congruous
2 : to bring into agreement or concord : RECONCILE
3 : to provide with something desired, needed, or suited (as a helpful service, a loan, or lodgings)
4 a : to make room for b : to hold without crowding or inconvenience
5 : to give consideration to : allow for <accommodate the special interests of various groups>

Gentle:
2 a : TRACTABLE, DOCILE b : free from harshness, sternness, or violence

I went on to cite numerous examples of Young's action and dialog that illustrate he has indeed tried to be reasonable, fair, and very restrained in his use of force (via the military contingent) to maintain order and discipline among all the crew of the Destiny. The beneficially of his actions for everyone on board wasn't disputed.

Let me try to clarify something for you. The crew of the Destiny consists of 80 plus people; I estimate the majority is civilians and I doubt the military contingent exceeds 25 percent of the total and it probably is less. But before you go off on me, that number is a guess and I haven't gone back and tried to count them all.


This has nothing to do with "bending over backwards to accommodate the civilian population". The argument was that Young has "bent over backwards to accommodate the civilian population". Not that he did a lot of things to help the population in general but that he did a lot to things specifically for the civilian population. When I asked for instances of this, I was given a list of hogwash.

The core of your argument seems to be that since most of the actions and dialog I cited (which you openly acknowledge as beneficial) were advantageous for the entire crew and not only just for the civilian part; I can't make the assertion that Young "has bent over backwards to be accommodating and gentle with the civilians". I have presented ample evidence that Young has indeed bent over backwards to be accommodating and gentle to the entire crew of Destiny of which the civilians are the major part - the part that usually requires the most accommodation and discipline. Your assertion that nothing Young does that benefits the entire crew can be cited as evidence of accommodation to the civilians is ludicrous. The civilians are still directly benefiting from his actions. Destiny is a small community, trying to view the needs, wishes and concerns of the civilians in isolation aren't possible and foolish. Young's actions have been to best serve the community of which the civilians are the major part.

You have also conveniently chosen to completely ignore the most compelling point of my argument - the way Young handled the most recent mutiny. Nothing proves my assertion more. It even fits into your ridiculous "civilian only proof" criteria. After Young retook the ship, instead of locking everyone of the mutinous civilians up (as they more than deserved) he sent them all back to their quarters unguarded. For God's sake! The civilians just hijacked the computer, locked down the ship and threatened to starve and dehydrate everyone of the military contingent - the same soldiers who have risked their lives on numerous occasions to protect and defend them. Their action wasn't a peaceful protest but a violent attack. Threatening the lives of the entire contingent to coerce cooperation cannot be construed as anything but a violent assault - period!

If a complete lack of a punitive response on Young's part isn't proof enough of his appeasement and gentleness and bending over backwards to accommodate the civilians, then nothing I can ever say will. Clearly you are blind to the obvious and I am wasting my time. Your evident dislike of Young has clouded your observation and reason. It is all too apparent that you both ignore and/or dismiss all the relevant facts that don't support your view and resort to unconvincing attempts of spurious logic to try to discredit my arguments.

I don't think Stargate has clearly outlined how the Communication Stones work. The power station looked like something that we put together as opposed to the ancients but I am not certain. Why would Young accuse Rush of having a stone with him if he hadn't just counted them beforehand or been informed that one was missing? One would think the tech who operates the stones would notice that one of them is missing and contact Young immediately. If Rush didn't take one why didn't he just say so and tell Young to go and count them, especially when disproving his accusation would be so easy? If Rush did take one of them they must work without the power station or possibly only one side needs a station and Rush would just wait for the next time Earth contacted Destiny. What reason would the writers have to put that dialog in if it wasn't true and if so, why would Rush take it if it wouldn't work without the power station? And if Rush didn't take the stone how did the connection happen with the aliens?

The only reason Rush would bring a Communication Stone with him in his backpack to the planet was if he was fearful of getting separated from Destiny for whatever reason. And if he was that fearful, as a precaution, I think it very likely he would bring a portable DHD device with him as well.

This whole line of argument is not absurd and is far from pure speculation.

At this point we have done enough back and forth on this debate. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I am going to agree to disagree with you. Feel free to reply to this post but I am done.

EllieVee
April 15th, 2010, 07:27 PM
I think the issue may well be the use of the term 'bend over backwards', of which I have seen no evidence (outside of my disagreement with the gentle, appease and accommodate bits as well).


The only reason Rush would bring a Communication Stone with him in his backpack to the planet was if he was fearful of getting separated from Destiny for whatever reason. And if he was that fearful, as a precaution, I think it very likely he would bring a portable DHD device with him as well.

This whole line of argument is not absurd and is far from pure speculation.

Since there is no evidence, it is pure speculation, unless you can actually come up with some evidence?

Lord Hurin
April 15th, 2010, 07:41 PM
I think the issue may well be the use of the term 'bend over backwards', of which I have seen no evidence (outside of my disagreement with the gentle, appease and accommodate bits as well).

The only issue I have with this is that, while we haven't seen Young "bend over backwards" for the civilians we haven't seen them making many requests to my recollection. It's not as if we've seen them asking for basic amenities and being rebuffed, and we haven't seen Young be overly harsh or violent towards any civilians besides Rush.

I'd say there's no evidence for him either bending over backwards or being a ruthless tyrant. Screencaps and transcripts always trump my (sometimes vague) memory though :)


Since there is no evidence, it is pure speculation, unless you can actually come up with some evidence?

I've heard a lot of rumbling about a snippet of Rush's flashbacks/ psychic backlash/ whatever you wanna call it containing an image of an alien holding a communications stone. I guess it was a "blink and you miss it" kind of thing, because I can't remember it from the episode. Those making such allegations could of course try and hunt down a screencap.

carmencatalina
April 15th, 2010, 07:53 PM
I've heard a lot of rumbling about a snippet of Rush's flashbacks/ psychic backlash/ whatever you wanna call it containing an image of an alien holding a communications stone. I guess it was a "blink and you miss it" kind of thing, because I can't remember it from the episode. Those making such allegations could of course try and hunt down a screencap.

Here you are, darlin':

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/3537/smurfstoned.png

Blackhole
April 15th, 2010, 07:56 PM
I think the issue may well be the use of the term 'bend over backwards', of which I have seen no evidence (outside of my disagreement with the gentle, appease and accommodate bits as well).

Since there is no evidence, it is pure speculation, unless you can actually come up with some evidence?

Obviously your vision is clouded. What do you call a complete lack of a punitive response on Young's part to the civilian mutineers?

Nothing proves my assertion more. After Young retook the ship, instead of locking everyone of the mutinous civilians up (as they more than deserved) he sent them all back to their quarters unguarded. For God’s sake! The civilians just hijacked the computer, locked down the ship and threatened to starve and dehydrate everyone of the military contingent – the same soldiers who have risked their lives on numerous occasions to protect and defend them. Their action wasn’t a peaceful protest but a violent attack. Threatening the lives of the entire contingent to coerce cooperation cannot be construed as anything but a violent assault!

If that action is not ample evidence and more than proof enough that Young has indeed bent over backwards to be accommodating and gentle to the entire civilian crew of Destiny then there is no action in your mind he could ever perform that would qualify – which I suspect is exactly the situation with you.

EllieVee
April 15th, 2010, 08:43 PM
Obviously your vision is clouded. What do you call a complete lack of a punitive response on Young's part to the civilian mutineers?

Nothing proves my assertion more. After Young retook the ship, instead of locking everyone of the mutinous civilians up (as they more than deserved) he sent them all back to their quarters unguarded. For God’s sake! The civilians just hijacked the computer, locked down the ship and threatened to starve and dehydrate everyone of the military contingent – the same soldiers who have risked their lives on numerous occasions to protect and defend them. Their action wasn’t a peaceful protest but a violent attack. Threatening the lives of the entire contingent to coerce cooperation cannot be construed as anything but a violent assault!

If that action is not ample evidence and more than proof enough that Young has indeed bent over backwards to be accommodating and gentle to the entire civilian crew of Destiny then there is no action in your mind he could ever perform that would qualify – which I suspect is exactly the situation with you.

After violently taking back the ship and sending them to their quarters at the point of a gun. Not exactly bending, let alone backwards.

nx01a
April 15th, 2010, 08:45 PM
To diverge a bit... The ship Rush flew back in... It was said that the ship had been 'dealt with'. 'Dealt with' as in swept for tracking devices or 'dealt with' as in destroyed? I'd love for them to have an extra craft to play with, but I can't see them going through every possible space on the ship to look for a tracker... and would they know if they found one?
I guess the Stargate curse of getting a cool alien ship strikes again.

EllieVee
April 15th, 2010, 08:47 PM
To diverge a bit... The ship Rush flew back in... It was said that the ship had been 'dealt with'. 'Dealt with' as in swept for tracking devices or 'dealt with' as in destroyed? I'd love for them to have an extra craft to play with, but I can't see them going through every possible space on the ship to look for a tracker... and would they know if they found one?
I guess the Stargate curse of getting a cool alien ship strikes again.

And there's those who say that it's nothing like Stargate ... This clearly proves the naysayers wrong! :P

nx01a
April 15th, 2010, 08:49 PM
*whistle*
Actually meant to post that in the general discussion...
*whistle*

Blackhole
April 15th, 2010, 09:23 PM
After violently taking back the ship and sending them to their quarters at the point of a gun. Not exactly bending, let alone backwards.

What violence? What did you think Young should have done? Ask everyone nicely to pretty please with sugar on top to go back to their quarters? The civilians just attacked the military contingent and threatened all their lives. Young and Scott came within seconds of being killed. They are lucky Young didn't lock them all up in a small room for a month. I think all the soldiers showed amazing restraint. They were all very lucky that only one of them got head butted. James told that guy to get on the ground he came towards her and didn’t comply so she clocked him.

EllieVee
April 15th, 2010, 09:43 PM
What violence? What did you think Young should have done? Ask everyone nicely to pretty please with sugar on top to go back to their quarters? The civilians just attacked the military contingent and threatened all their lives. They are lucky Young didn't lock them all up in a small room for a month. I think all the soldiers showed amazing restraint. They were all very lucky that only one of them got head butted. James told that guy to get on the ground he came towards her and didn’t comply so she clocked him.

Did you miss the unconscious bodies? The pistol whipping? Greer cocking his gun into Volker's chest? Young threatening to shoot Rush? Oh wait, you didn't miss those. That's violence. How did the civvies 'attack' the military contingent? Please cite examples of civilian use of physical violence. I remember one pointing a gun at Eli.

Commander Zelix
April 15th, 2010, 10:03 PM
The coup leaders should be shot down by a firing squad.

Blackhole
April 15th, 2010, 10:04 PM
Did you miss the unconscious bodies? The pistol whipping? Greer cocking his gun into Volker's chest? Young threatening to shoot Rush? Oh wait, you didn't miss those. That's violence. How did the civvies 'attack' the military contingent? Please cite examples of civilian use of physical violence. I remember one pointing a gun at Eli.

The unconsciousness bodies were probably armed. Again I ask you what did you expect Young to do? Ask everyone nicely to pretty please with sugar on top to go back to their quarters? The civilians just attacked the military contingent and threatened all their lives. Young and Scott came within a few seconds of being killed. Threatening someone’s life is a very violent act. If this concept is hard for you to understand, go down to your local liquor store and try waving a gun around or lock them in the storage room and tell them you aren’t going to let them out until they do what you say. See how gentle the police are when they come get you. And if you survive and are hauled in front of the judge, try telling them “What is the big deal! I didn’t shoot anyone or I let them out after three days when they did what I told them to! It will be a real learning experience, one which you will have years to think about from prison.

nx01a
April 15th, 2010, 10:12 PM
I really can't beat that analogy.^ Nicely put.
Did you miss the unconscious bodies? The pistol whipping? Greer cocking his gun into Volker's chest? Young threatening to shoot Rush? Oh wait, you didn't miss those. That's violence. How did the civvies 'attack' the military contingent? Please cite examples of civilian use of physical violence. I remember one pointing a gun at Eli.A gun to the chest if you don't submit is a sure way to die, as is being kept from food and water if you don't submit.

Holding two of their people hostage, locking the military in and threatening to let the other side die of starvation [well, dehydration firstly] vs. getting guns to the chest, a few people knocked unconscious, a really nice pistol-whipping and sent to their rooms for it? The civilians got off light.

TJ and Scott both chose to keep it as non-violent as possible, though some threats of/acts of non-lethal violence were necessary to regain control of the ship. And Young never order life support cut to the civilians, though that might have been simply not to antagonize them further.

EllieVee
April 15th, 2010, 10:38 PM
The unconsciousness bodies were probably armed. Again I ask you what did you expect Young to do? Ask everyone nicely to pretty please with sugar on top to go back to their quarters? The civilians just attacked the military contingent and threatened all their lives. Young and Scott came within a few seconds of being killed. Threatening someone’s life is a very violent act. If this concept is hard for you to understand, go down to your local liquor store and try waving a gun around or lock them in the storage room and tell them you aren’t going to let them out until they do what you say. See how gentle the police are when they come get you. And if you survive and are hauled in front of the judge, try telling them “What is the big deal! I didn’t shoot anyone or I let them out after three days when they did what I told them to! It will be a real learning experience, one which you will have years to think about from prison.

ROFL!

You didn't respond to my question. 'Probably armed' doesn't mean actually armed. They had one gun. One. And yes, what Young could have done was ask to meet with Wray and Rush or discuss it with them over the radio first. As to Young and Scott nearly being killed, I'll point out that was accidental. Rush clearly didn't know of this side effect. The rest of your example is just overreaction on your part and will be ignored.

Blackhole
April 15th, 2010, 11:22 PM
ROFL!

You didn't respond to my question. 'Probably armed' doesn't mean actually armed. They had one gun. One. And yes, what Young could have done was ask to meet with Wray and Rush or discuss it with them over the radio first. As to Young and Scott nearly being killed, I'll point out that was accidental. Rush clearly didn't know of this side effect. The rest of your example is just overreaction on your part and will be ignored.

How do you know they had only one gun? Maybe they were armed with clubs?

Of course Young should have asked to meet with Wray and Rush after he and Scott were nearly killed and everyone threatened with dehydration and starvation. Of course the shuttle incident was an accident, Rush wouldn't lie. And given Rush’s history they both really should be much more trusting of him. Anyone can clearly see Rush didn’t know it would happen. The fact that it took both Wray and Chloe demanding he stop to get him to do so isn’t important. Eli is a worry wart and the shuttle would have been fine. Come on, clearly this was his first computer transfer and ship hijacking. He can’t possibly be expected to know all the ramifications. Accidents are bound to happen. Young and Scott need to be more understanding and reasonable. And the military really needs to get a sense of humor and lighten up. Just because all their lives were threatened and their food and water cut off is no excuse to react harshly. Rush, Wray, and the other civilians are honorable people. They were only doing what was necessary for the good of the ship.

EllieVee
April 15th, 2010, 11:31 PM
I'm glad you now understand the situation.

Wayston
April 15th, 2010, 11:37 PM
What disciplinary actions should Young take towards Rush, Wray and the other civilians to maintain order and prevent another coup attempt?

boom, headshot!

Blackhole
April 15th, 2010, 11:37 PM
I'm glad you now understand the situation.

The more I think about it the clearer it becomes. Thank you for your valuable insights.

EllieVee
April 15th, 2010, 11:38 PM
The more I think about it the clearer it becomes. Thank you for your valuable insights.

No problems. Just ask anytime.

jmoz
April 15th, 2010, 11:41 PM
All leaders and participants involved should have weekly sessions with a therapist.

Blackhole
April 15th, 2010, 11:45 PM
All leaders and participants involved should have weekly sessions with a therapist.

That is the answer!