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An-Alteran
April 10th, 2010, 10:05 PM
Camille's argument was that the military was "refusing to submit to civilian leadership like free civilized nations".

There are several flaws with this argument:

1. The military ARE under civilian rule. They are United States Armed Forces personnel under the Constitution of the United States of America.

2. Destiny is not a nation or society. It is the evacuation site for a base run by the US military.

3. The Scientists and few civilians (with the exception of Camille) on Destiny are employees of the US government, many via the US Military, and under said nation's protection. This is the same situation as on the military research base that contacted Destiny to begin with, from which they evacuated.

4. Camille is a Civilian Oversight representative, not a Civilian leader like the Senator was, and thus has little actual authority.

5. None of the civilians have any qualification for any sort of actual leadership.

Camille's argument utilized a total distortion of reality to make a case for the organized military force on the ship to yield in subservience to a rag-tag group of civilian refugees.

This argument was unfounded, endangered the crew, and instigated a violent confrontation.

ammit
April 10th, 2010, 10:49 PM
Camille's argument was that the military was "refusing to submit to civilian leadership like free civilized nations".

There are several flaws with this argument:

1. The military ARE under civilian rule. They are United States Armed Forces personnel under the Constitution of the United States of America.

2. Destiny is not a nation or society. It is the evacuation site for a base run by the US military.

3. The Scientists and few civilians (with the exception of Camille) on Destiny are employees of the US government, many via the US Military, and under said nation's protection. This is the same situation as on the military research base that contacted Destiny to begin with, from which they evacuated.

4. Camille is a Civilian Oversight representative, not a Civilian leader like the Senator was, and thus has little actual authority.

5. None of the civilians have any qualification for any sort of actual leadership.

Camille's argument utilized a total distortion of reality to make a case for the organized military force on the ship to yield in subservience to a rag-tag group of civilian refugees.

This argument was unfounded, endangered the crew, and instigated a violent confrontation.


Haha, I just started another thread talking about the exact same thing. This is a boat, ship, whatever, for crying out loud!

Specter177
April 10th, 2010, 10:57 PM
Green for you! That was a very clear and well thought out argument.

escyos
April 10th, 2010, 11:26 PM
i think that they also thought the military was withholding supplies for themselves.

and rush seems to have been wanting to find out how to control the ship and get them home, and then suddenly the young appears to have gotten rid of rush and the military wont let them figure out how to get home, but to repair the ship.

Fridgefiend
April 10th, 2010, 11:31 PM
i think that they also thought the military was withholding supplies for themselves.

and rush seems to have been wanting to find out how to control the ship and get them home, and then suddenly the young appears to have gotten rid of rush and the military wont let them figure out how to get home, but to repair the ship.

I don't think any of them actually thought Rush was going to try to get them home though. Hell that's one of the reasons they don't like him. He's arrogant and got them stranded etc.

Young was the one trying to get everyone home not Rush. Rush was just the only one with a chance of figuring it out.

I think it was just more that they thought the military control wasn't fair. Although I'm not sure what they were complaining about. The only incident that stands out to me was in Air part 3 when Greer shot Volker. Maybe I'm just not recalling the others.

escyos
April 11th, 2010, 02:37 AM
I don't think any of them actually thought Rush was going to try to get them home though. Hell that's one of the reasons they don't like him. He's arrogant and got them stranded etc.

Young was the one trying to get everyone home not Rush. Rush was just the only one with a chance of figuring it out.

I think it was just more that they thought the military control wasn't fair. Although I'm not sure what they were complaining about. The only incident that stands out to me was in Air part 3 when Greer shot Volker. Maybe I'm just not recalling the others.

perhaps, but rush wanted to use the chair to learn to control the ship, Young was against it completely. Plus young was getting them to ration supplies and settle in for the long run, most of them wanted to go home as quickly as possible.

Wayston
April 11th, 2010, 02:55 AM
I think the only justification is that (if I remember correctly) Young was relieved from command in the previous episodes but chose to ignore that order, although my memory is a bit blurry on these events. Other than that there is indeed no justification, they should conform with the command structure ordered by earth

Popcorn
April 11th, 2010, 04:38 AM
Camille's argument was that the military was "refusing to submit to civilian leadership like free civilized nations".

There are several flaws with this argument:

1. The military ARE under civilian rule. They are United States Armed Forces personnel under the Constitution of the United States of America.

2. Destiny is not a nation or society. It is the evacuation site for a base run by the US military.

3. The Scientists and few civilians (with the exception of Camille) on Destiny are employees of the US government, many via the US Military, and under said nation's protection. This is the same situation as on the military research base that contacted Destiny to begin with, from which they evacuated.

4. Camille is a Civilian Oversight representative, not a Civilian leader like the Senator was, and thus has little actual authority.

5. None of the civilians have any qualification for any sort of actual leadership.

Camille's argument utilized a total distortion of reality to make a case for the organized military force on the ship to yield in subservience to a rag-tag group of civilian refugees.

This argument was unfounded, endangered the crew, and instigated a violent confrontation.

Finally someone with commonsense. Especially number 3, I get tired of people saying how the military has no right to order the scientist and civilians around. They are on a government payroll, The military has every right to order them around. Take the episode in SG-1 with Carter and McKay when they first meet I think at the end how he said they couldn't tell him where to go and Carter pointed out that little gem you just did.



and rush seems to have been wanting to find out how to control the ship and get them home, and then suddenly the young appears to have gotten rid of rush and the military wont let them figure out how to get home, but to repair the ship.

lol Rush wanting to get them home? Fat chance his ONLY interest is the Destiny, He will never actually try to get them home, Due to the CHANCE he maybe replaced as 'lead' scientist on the Destiny.


perhaps, but rush wanted to use the chair to learn to control the ship, Young was against it completely. Plus young was getting them to ration supplies and settle in for the long run, most of them wanted to go home as quickly as possible.

I have to correct you on this one, Rush NEVER wanted to use the chair. He wanted to use someone else as guinea pig for the chair. Rush is a selfish person he does what is best for himself. Young is rationing supplies because he is a survivor he thinks ahead he wants to get everyone back to earth but just in case they need supplies.


I don't know what show some of you are watching that believes rush is in the right for any of his actions but it must not be SGU.

Stranding EVERYONE on board the Destiny by dialing it instead of another gate.
He known damn well once he told those scientist that the chair could get them home one of them was gonna sit in it and turn out like a veggie.
Not telling everyone that the ship was gonna refuel with the sun and not fly right into it.
Framing Young for murder
Not telling anyone about the damn tracker in his chest
Trying to take over the ship
Was going to leave Young and Scott to die in the shuttle after being told about the clamps.

I am not saying Young is the best leader but especially now since they have actual bad guys you need a commander who will think about everyone else and not just himself *Cough* Rush *Cough*.. The IOA woman right now she is too ignorant to lead.

As far as the Mutiny goes wow.. Damn stupid scientist and civilians think about it who would they run to for help when they ran into actual trouble they are stuck on a ship knowing their are bad guys looking for them and they want to piss of the only people who can protect them? wow just wow.

OK I am done ranting.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 11th, 2010, 04:58 AM
An-Alteran,


Camille's argument was that the military was "refusing to submit to civilian leadership like free civilized nations".

There are several flaws with this argument:

1. The military ARE under civilian rule. They are United States Armed Forces personnel under the Constitution of the United States of America.

Which is why Col. Young has been picked up and held pending Courts Martial for attacking Col. Telford? It may be true but it has serious practical limitations.


2. Destiny is not a nation or society. It is the evacuation site for a base run by the US military.

Until they get home in their own bodies its the only "society" they've got. There are any number of very small subsitence level tribes around the world that aren't much larger than the Destiny evacuees that qualify as "societies".


3. The Scientists and few civilians (with the exception of Camille) on Destiny are employees of the US government, many via the US Military, and under said nation's protection. This is the same situation as on the military research base that contacted Destiny to begin with, from which they evacuated.

And? Most of these people aren't military and aren't subject to the UCMJ. They should be able to decide for themselves whats going to happen to them.


4. Camille is a Civilian Oversight representative, not a Civilian leader like the Senator was, and thus has little actual authority.

Wray, presumably, wouldn't be maintaining her authority with men and women with guns. If the other Civilians and military want her to step down from the leadership role I think she'll have to step down.


5. None of the civilians have any qualification for any sort of actual leadership.

So, only qualified people as you choose not to define it should have positions of authority and command in this very small society. Eli, no college degree and no military training, was handed a pistol and given charge of half the away team by Col. Young's nominal second in command. You might say that exactly what will happen. I say, look you take what you've got some will step up some will not. That's what happens in these situations.


Camille's argument utilized a total distortion of reality to make a case for the organized military force on the ship to yield in subservience to a rag-tag group of civilian refugees.

This argument was unfounded, endangered the crew, and instigated a violent confrontation.

I do think she over stepped ignoring the biggest weapon the civilians have. The civilians possess the knowledge and skills that are allowing these people to survive. Rather than take drastic action they simply should have staged a work stoppage. If the military attempts to force them to work point out that the very reason the work stoppage is effective is why they can't kill someone to force them or others to work.

reddevil18
April 11th, 2010, 05:16 AM
Indeed. But it's coup d'état.

Xarn
April 11th, 2010, 05:30 AM
Stranding EVERYONE on board the Destiny by dialing it instead of another gate.
He known damn well once he told those scientist that the chair could get them home one of them was gonna sit in it and turn out like a veggie.
Not telling everyone that the ship was gonna refuel with the sun and not fly right into it.
Framing Young for murder
Not telling anyone about the damn tracker in his chest
Trying to take over the ship
Was going to leave Young and Scott to die in the shuttle after being told about the clamps.

No arguments about first one, but:
I strongly doubt he wanted the scientist to sit there. My reasons? Rush wants to learn as much as possible about destiny, its controls, tech, everything. By having scientist sit there when he is alone, he gets nothing. (Now if the scientist "volunteered" to sit there under supervision and monitored, I would have doubts...)
Yeah, because by letting the shuttle go and be potentially lost, he had SO much to gain, like losing people, supplies, having Young still around (Even more paranoid about him than before) ...
No arguments there
Greyish area. (While wrong, quite understandable)
Not really, while he was one of the "mutineers", he wasn't the actual leader. (Even though he was quite instrumental) So you either have to judge all (well almost) civilians for the uprising, or let him be.
No arguments there (Well except that getting rid of Young as leader would be good deed)



I do think she over stepped ignoring the biggest weapon the civilians have. The civilians possess the knowledge and skills that are allowing these people to survive. Rather than take drastic action they simply should have staged a work stoppage. If the military attempts to force them to work point out that the very reason the work stoppage is effective is why they can't kill someone to force them or others to work.
Or they could just decide that next time they are willing to kill. (If this mutiny wasn't meant to be w/o deaths of any sort, there would currently be quite a lot less military around) Because in Destiny-like setting, it is the smart guy who hold all the trumps.

Phenom
April 11th, 2010, 06:03 AM
Camille's argument was that the military was "refusing to submit to civilian leadership like free civilized nations".

There are several flaws with this argument:

1. The military ARE under civilian rule. They are United States Armed Forces personnel under the Constitution of the United States of America.

2. Destiny is not a nation or society. It is the evacuation site for a base run by the US military.

3. The Scientists and few civilians (with the exception of Camille) on Destiny are employees of the US government, many via the US Military, and under said nation's protection. This is the same situation as on the military research base that contacted Destiny to begin with, from which they evacuated.

4. Camille is a Civilian Oversight representative, not a Civilian leader like the Senator was, and thus has little actual authority.

5. None of the civilians have any qualification for any sort of actual leadership.

Camille's argument utilized a total distortion of reality to make a case for the organized military force on the ship to yield in subservience to a rag-tag group of civilian refugees.

This argument was unfounded, endangered the crew, and instigated a violent confrontation.

Couldn't agree more. She is just a power hungry politician who simply wants to be in charge, no matter if it is in the best interest of the crew. Her arguments made no sense and was simply Pollie spin to try and talk her way into power.

zarian
April 11th, 2010, 07:44 AM
Remember everyone Camille's is trying to grab for power because her IOA bosses told her too, and she herself seems to want to have power.

So my guess is she is using the frustrations the civi's have and got them to agree to this.

FallenAngelII
April 11th, 2010, 09:40 AM
There are, like, a bazillion threads about this already, but alright:
I stopped reading after #1. No they're not. Young is dictator! His decision is final and it's the only one that matters. People can advise him, but in the end, his decision is the only one that matters.

Also, hey, I'm pretty sure that U.S. Law states that murder is illegal. And he tried to commit that. Greer committed a few crimes himself on Icarus Base, but he's going unpunished. Pistol-whipping a non-combattant who's just standing there is illegal, but I guess Young will let it slide for James for just that one time.

It is not Civilian and they are not following anyone's law but Young's.

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 11th, 2010, 10:26 AM
Camille's argument was that the military was "refusing to submit to civilian leadership like free civilized nations".

There are several flaws with this argument:

1. The military ARE under civilian rule. They are United States Armed Forces personnel under the Constitution of the United States of America.

2. Destiny is not a nation or society. It is the evacuation site for a base run by the US military.

3. The Scientists and few civilians (with the exception of Camille) on Destiny are employees of the US government, many via the US Military, and under said nation's protection. This is the same situation as on the military research base that contacted Destiny to begin with, from which they evacuated.

4. Camille is a Civilian Oversight representative, not a Civilian leader like the Senator was, and thus has little actual authority.

5. None of the civilians have any qualification for any sort of actual leadership.

Camille's argument utilized a total distortion of reality to make a case for the organized military force on the ship to yield in subservience to a rag-tag group of civilian refugees.

This argument was unfounded, endangered the crew, and instigated a violent confrontation.

the military on Destiny are under civilian leadership, it's just not the leadership Wray would like as she doesn't appear to wield much control. And I agree with you, none of the civilians are qualified to lead, at least not at this stage of the game.

Avenger
April 11th, 2010, 10:29 AM
O'Neill put Young in charge. If the civilians have issues with his command, they can take it up with the higher ups back on Earth, including what he did to Rush and whether or no Greer and James' actions were justified.

I don't disagree that there are major issues that need to be taken care of as far as Young's command goes, however.

FallenAngelII
April 11th, 2010, 10:45 AM
the military on Destiny are under civilian leadership, it's just not the leadership Wray would like as she doesn't appear to wield much control. And I agree with you, none of the civilians are qualified to lead, at least not at this stage of the game.
And what civilian would that be?

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 11th, 2010, 10:47 AM
on Earth, the military is under civilian leadership, and Young is under THIER leadership. The chain of command goes to Earth, not someone who stages a coup on the Destiny

Asecooper
April 11th, 2010, 11:33 AM
There are, like, a bazillion threads about this already, but alright:
I stopped reading after #1. No they're not. Young is dictator! His decision is final and it's the only one that matters. People can advise him, but in the end, his decision is the only one that matters.

Also, hey, I'm pretty sure that U.S. Law states that murder is illegal. And he tried to commit that. Greer committed a few crimes himself on Icarus Base, but he's going unpunished. Pistol-whipping a non-combattant who's just standing there is illegal, but I guess Young will let it slide for James for just that one time.

It is not Civilian and they are not following anyone's law but Young's.

Not that I disagree about the attempted murder part, but for the sake of arguments: Treason is punishable by death in Camille's "Civilian dictated" societies.

Sami_
April 11th, 2010, 11:39 AM
Also lets not forget Wray was complicit in the plot to frame Young so she knows fine well he had just cause to deal with Rush yet now she claims his actions are the reason for the mutiny.

meo3000
April 11th, 2010, 11:40 AM
Great post OP!

Trying to refute this argument is like throwing away 15 years of SGC protocoles out the window. We cant do that just because we feel an urge to sympathize with the civilians.

jelgate
April 11th, 2010, 11:42 AM
Also lets not forget Wray was complicit in the plot to frame Young so she knows fine well he had just cause to deal with Rush yet now she claims his actions are the reason for the mutiny.
Thier is no proof that Wray knew about Rush framing Young for murder

Sami_
April 11th, 2010, 12:04 PM
Thier is no proof that Wray knew about Rush framing Young for murder

Rush: The colonel is dangerous
Wray: We need to do something about that
Rush: I tried
Wray: I know

- Space

jelgate
April 11th, 2010, 12:20 PM
Rush: The colonel is dangerous
Wray: We need to do something about that
Rush: I tried
Wray: I know

- Space
That is no clear indication that Wray know about the framing of Young. Its quite vague actually. For all we know maybe Rush meant the events on the planet

Lahela
April 11th, 2010, 12:23 PM
That is no clear indication that Wray know about the framing of Young. Its quite vague actually. For all we know maybe Rush meant the events on the planet

Or Rush told her about things after he came back to ship.

jelgate
April 11th, 2010, 12:24 PM
Or Rush told her about things after he came back to ship.

Its a possibility but I highly doubt it. It doesn't fit with Rush's character

Lahela
April 11th, 2010, 12:26 PM
Its a possibility but I highly doubt it. It doesn't fit with Rush's character

Oh, I don't know. Perfect way to get her onside.

Fridgefiend
April 11th, 2010, 12:28 PM
Its a possibility but I highly doubt it. It doesn't fit with Rush's character

I'd say that after the events on the planet a few people figured it out. Greer seemed to have a suspicion and I'd bet that Wray thinks she knows why Young left him there.

jelgate
April 11th, 2010, 12:29 PM
Oh, I don't know. Perfect way to get her onside.

But Wray doesn't sound like the kind of person who would go along if she knew Rush was just as gulity as Young in the Justice ordeal. Coupled on the way she says, "You shouldn't have left him on that planet." to me points that she wasn't completely complict on the truth of what was going on

Lahela
April 11th, 2010, 12:32 PM
But Wray doesn't sound like the kind of person who would go along if she knew Rush was just as gulity as Young in the Justice ordeal. Coupled on the way she says, "You shouldn't have left him on that planet." to me points that she wasn't completely complict on the truth of what was going on

That's true. I find her difficult to read, which I guess is the point. ;) But if she does know, then she's certainly only heard one side of it, so...

jelgate
April 11th, 2010, 12:33 PM
That's true. I find her difficult to read, which I guess is the point. ;) But if she does know, then she's certainly only heard one side of it, so...

...so we go back to favoriter hobby of blaming Rush:P

Lahela
April 11th, 2010, 12:35 PM
...so we go back to favoriter hobby of blaming Rush:P

What else would you do here? :p

jelgate
April 11th, 2010, 12:38 PM
What else would you do here? :p

Tease you with countdowns

Lahela
April 11th, 2010, 12:41 PM
Tease you with countdowns

Well yeah, there is that. :p

Sami_
April 11th, 2010, 12:52 PM
But Wray doesn't sound like the kind of person who would go along if she knew Rush was just as gulity as Young in the Justice ordeal. Coupled on the way she says, "You shouldn't have left him on that planet." to me points that she wasn't completely complict on the truth of what was going on

I'm sure in Wray's eyes there is a big difference between framing someone (for reasons she agrees with) and murdering them.

Wray doesn't seem like a particularly moral character to me either, I'm not sure why you'd give her so much credit.

I'm pretty sure Wray knew during the events of Justice that Young would not have shot Spencer and that he was being framed and when Rush didn't come back from the mission with Young I think shes smart enough to put two and two together.

Sure we don't have a written confession that Wray knew but I think when you step back and just remember we're watching a tv show and don't try to second guess every little indication the writers give then its fairly obvious what conclusion you should come to.

major davis
April 11th, 2010, 12:56 PM
Camille's argument was that the military was "refusing to submit to civilian leadership like free civilized nations".

There are several flaws with this argument:

1. The military ARE under civilian rule. They are United States Armed Forces personnel under the Constitution of the United States of America.

2. Destiny is not a nation or society. It is the evacuation site for a base run by the US military.

3. The Scientists and few civilians (with the exception of Camille) on Destiny are employees of the US government, many via the US Military, and under said nation's protection. This is the same situation as on the military research base that contacted Destiny to begin with, from which they evacuated.

4. Camille is a Civilian Oversight representative, not a Civilian leader like the Senator was, and thus has little actual authority.

5. None of the civilians have any qualification for any sort of actual leadership.

Camille's argument utilized a total distortion of reality to make a case for the organized military force on the ship to yield in subservience to a rag-tag group of civilian refugees.

This argument was unfounded, endangered the crew, and instigated a violent confrontation.

I totally agree. I feel exactly the same way. Great argument and great thread!

FallenAngelII
April 11th, 2010, 12:59 PM
on Earth, the military is under civilian leadership, and Young is under THIER leadership. The chain of command goes to Earth, not someone who stages a coup on the Destiny
No... that's not the situation on the Destiny. Civilian leadership have granted Young command. He answers to them, but it's still him who commands the ship. The civilian leadership can only relieve him of his post should they choose to.


Not that I disagree about the attempted murder part, but for the sake of arguments: Treason is punishable by death in Camille's "Civilian dictated" societies.
Only during times of war in most civilized countries in the free world (such as Sweden). And what did Rush do that is tantamount to treason?

Also, if Young thought he was doing the right and legal thing, he wouldn't have lied about it.

s09119
April 11th, 2010, 01:02 PM
Camille's argument was that the military was "refusing to submit to civilian leadership like free civilized nations".

There are several flaws with this argument:

1. The military ARE under civilian rule. They are United States Armed Forces personnel under the Constitution of the United States of America.

2. Destiny is not a nation or society. It is the evacuation site for a base run by the US military.

3. The Scientists and few civilians (with the exception of Camille) on Destiny are employees of the US government, many via the US Military, and under said nation's protection. This is the same situation as on the military research base that contacted Destiny to begin with, from which they evacuated.

4. Camille is a Civilian Oversight representative, not a Civilian leader like the Senator was, and thus has little actual authority.

5. None of the civilians have any qualification for any sort of actual leadership.

Camille's argument utilized a total distortion of reality to make a case for the organized military force on the ship to yield in subservience to a rag-tag group of civilian refugees.

This argument was unfounded, endangered the crew, and instigated a violent confrontation.

If they were on Earth or Icarus Base, you would probably be correct. But the gravity and extreme unpredictability of their situation negates your argument; the US government has no way to enforce whatever decisions it may make provided Colonel Young simply disagrees, and the same is true for the IOA with Wray. Thus establishing an independent governing body to oversee Destiny is the logical choice.

An-Alteran
April 11th, 2010, 01:51 PM
An-Alteran,



Which is why Col. Young has been picked up and held pending Courts Martial for attacking Col. Telford? It may be true but it has serious practical limitations.
Desperate times call for desperate measures. That is a bit cliche, but it is reality.
Young, faults included, is the best they have. The next best are butter-bar lieutenants.


Until they get home in their own bodies its the only "society" they've got.
Which is true for any long range military operation. Changes nothing.
They are an isolated part of a larger society.


There are any number of very small subsitence level tribes around the world that aren't much larger than the Destiny evacuees that qualify as "societies".
They are not an isolated part of a larger national society. They are a tribe. Different cultural dynamic, fundamentally.




And? Most of these people aren't military and aren't subject to the UCMJ.
They are under the protection and payroll of the US Government, via the military.


They should be able to decide for themselves whats going to happen to them.
No they shouldn't. This is a military base of operations. Just as Icarus base was.
They are employees and refugees. They don't have that authority.
You have said nothing I haven't refuted in the opening post.


Wray, presumably, wouldn't be maintaining her authority with men and women with guns. If the other Civilians and military want her to step down from the leadership role I think she'll have to step down.
Irrelevant. I already defeated this argument in my OP.


So, only qualified people
Yes. Military base. None of the civilians have any leadership qualifications.
The Senator did, he was it.

Young is it.


as you choose not to define it
This is not an argument. Ad hominem. Nice try at snubbing though. ;)


should have positions of authority and command in this very small society.
It is an isolated segment of a larger society under the Civilian authority of said Government.
You are using your conclusion (it is an actual independent society that should be under civilian rule) as a premise for your refuting argument.
That is circular reasoning.


Eli, no college degree and no military training, was handed a pistol and given charge of half the away team by Col. Young's nominal second in command.
That was a decision made by the nominal second in command. He had every authority to make it. Eli was the only one he could trust in his estimation.
You are free to disagree with the decision he had the authority to make.


You might say that exactly what will happen. I say, look you take what you've got some will step up some will not. That's what happens in these situations.
Employees =/= legitimate Civilian Government.


I do think she over stepped ignoring the biggest weapon the civilians have. The civilians possess the knowledge and skills that are allowing these people to survive. Rather than take drastic action they simply should have staged a work stoppage. If the military attempts to force them to work point out that the very reason the work stoppage is effective is why they can't kill someone to force them or others to work.
Yay! Then they all die.
Wonderful idea there. =)

The disrespect you have shown by your actions demonstrates no effort to actually give a real reply.


Young is dictator! His decision is final and it's the only one that matters. People can advise him, but in the end, his decision is the only one that matters.
Yeah, that is what a Colonel in the US Military is. That is his job description.
Your naiveté is palatable.

Colonel Young is the experienced ranking officer over everyone under his protection from the Icarus base evacuation. He was second in command of the mission. He is the only ranking military officer that got through the Stargate from the military base he was in charge over.

He is in charge. The Senator was his boss, but he died.


Also, hey, I'm pretty sure that U.S. Law states that murder is illegal. And he tried to commit that.
You are right. He was wrong. He knows that. Nothing anyone can do about that, including him.
He can't hand over authority to anyone else, he has to have it.

Don't forget that framing people for murder is illegal also.


Greer committed a few crimes himself on Icarus Base, but he's going unpunished.
They are not in a position to enact punishment.
They need him. Just like they need Rush. Just like they need Young.


Pistol-whipping a non-combattant who's just standing there is illegal, but I guess Young will let it slide for James for just that one time.
Mutineer = Combatant.
He was a combatant who refused to surrender when ordered and given the opportunity and stood up to Lt. James.

Why is everyone such wimps about getting punched? Geeze. Worse happens at High School.


It is not Civilian and they are not following anyone's law but Young's.
Your argument is baseless and irrational.

You didn't deserve to even be responded to since you ignored my argument that you were trying to respond to.


And what civilian would that be?

If you had actually read my argument in the opening post, you would have been able to answer that question yourself.
:)


No... that's not the situation on the Destiny. Civilian leadership have granted Young command. He answers to them, but it's still him who commands the ship.
Yes... that is what a ship Captain does. That is what a military base commander does.


The civilian leadership can only relieve him of his post should they choose to.
Uh... yeah. They have not.


And what did Rush do that is tantamount to treason?
Mutinee maybe? Framing the ranking officer for murder to subvert his command, maybe?


Also, if Young thought he was doing the right and legal thing, he wouldn't have lied about it.
You are actually right there. He knew he was wrong.


If they were on Earth or Icarus Base, you would probably be correct. But the gravity and extreme unpredictability of their situation negates your argument; the US government has no way to enforce whatever decisions it may make provided Colonel Young simply disagrees, and the same is true for the IOA with Wray. Thus establishing an independent governing body to oversee Destiny is the logical choice.
The situation negates nothing. It is a military operation under military control, granted by their Civilian leadership in the US Government and overseen by an international coalition.

s09119
April 11th, 2010, 02:13 PM
The situation negates nothing. It is a military operation under military control, granted by their Civilian leadership in the US Government and overseen by an international coalition.

You failed to address my point, though. Ultimately the only power on Destiny that matters is Col. Young, since he can decide to follow what Earth tells him to do or not without any consequence. Thus it really is a military dictatorship, and the civilians are completely justified.

An-Alteran
April 11th, 2010, 02:19 PM
You failed to address my point, though. Ultimately the only power on Destiny that matters is Col. Young, since he can decide to follow what Earth tells him to do or not without any consequence. Thus it really is a military dictatorship, and the civilians are completely justified.
You are arguing that a counter-factual undermines my argument without interacting with my argument.
That is not a valid refutation. That is an ad hoc argument. Non sequitor.

You are not arguing against my argument.
You simply created a counter-factual straw-man that my my argument never addressed nor was intended to address.

My argument has to do with what is in fact the situation.
You can't refute that with a what-if scenario.

Young is the designated commander of a military operation.
He is also the only qualified leader.

A military base is a miniature military dictatorship. That is what it is.

If Young is ever ordered to step down by his rightful authorities, and refuses to do so, my argument would not apply to that situation; nor was it intended to.

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 11th, 2010, 02:19 PM
if it's truly a military dictatorship, then how is it that Wray continues to try to contact Earth - the REAL civilian authority - to try to undermine Young's command? I think she took the action that she did because the very real civilian authority has NOT ceded command to her and I think with good reason. To restate, ANY government or authority can possibly be seen as a dictatorship but in the real world, there are shades of grey and most, if not all of us live under some sort of a benevolent dictatorship when we are in an emergency situation. During a time of war, just try and pull a coup in your country and see what happens. Right now, while they are in the situation they are in, facing an enemy that wants who knows what with you, if you take up arms against the authority that exists, as TJ says, you're declaring war.

I agree that if Young is ever ordered, by those in his chain of command, not those on the ship that are not, and he doesn't stand down? Then the situation may change, but for the moment, I don't see a problem with it.

s09119
April 11th, 2010, 02:31 PM
You are arguing that a counter-factual undermines my argument without interacting with my argument.
That is not a valid refutation. That is an ad hoc argument. Non sequitor.

You are not arguing against my argument.
You simply created a counter-factual straw-man that my my argument never addressed nor was intended to address.

My argument has to do with what is in fact the situation.
You can't refute that with a what-if scenario.

Young is the designated commander of a military operation.
He is also the only qualified leader.

A military base is a miniature military dictatorship. That is what it is.

If Young is ever ordered to step down by his rightful authorities, and refuses to do so, my argument would not apply to that situation; nor was it intended to.

This is not a military operation. The United States Air Force never ordered an evacuation to the Ancient exploratory ship Destiny. Destiny is not a military base, it's a scientific outpost in space.

My argument is not an ad hoc, and it's not a "what if." Young has already proven that he will defy Earth if he wants to ("Earth"), and that he will obey the orders of the Pentagon only as he sees fit. Therefore, he's already claimed that he will be the sole authority on the ship if it suits him, and again, this justifies the civilians completely.

Gollumpus
April 11th, 2010, 02:31 PM
If they were on Earth or Icarus Base, you would probably be correct. But the gravity and extreme unpredictability of their situation negates your argument; the US government has no way to enforce whatever decisions it may make provided Colonel Young simply disagrees, and the same is true for the IOA with Wray. Thus establishing an independent governing body to oversee Destiny is the logical choice.

Hokay, let's assume that the very first thing that the refugees from Icarus base did was to set up some kind of civilian government to oversee the military and make any decisions (big or small) which would affect their day to day lives. What sort of changes would there be in these past dozen or so episodes?
Examples:
* food and water would still have been rationed. The military would have been called upon to see to the regulation of these resources, kind of like how they were ordered to do by Young.
* a "suggestion" would be made of getting the civilian population into better physical condition to help relieve boredom, stress and perhaps help them to survive in some as yet unforeseen situation, with the military serving as the instructors. This would be different in that in LIFE Young had "ordered" this activity. So, I suspect that there would be a lot more bored and unfit civilians moping around the ship with the civilian government.
* in LIGHT when the lottery was being held, it may have been structured an implemented differently with civilian governance. None the less, the military would have been called upon to oversee the results and put down any kind of a riot.

I'm not sure how the lot of the civilians would have been improved over the last while, nor do I see it becoming better with a change in governance.

regards,
G.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 11th, 2010, 02:37 PM
Sami,


Also lets not forget Wray was complicit in the plot to frame Young so she knows fine well he had just cause to deal with Rush yet now she claims his actions are the reason for the mutiny.

If Young had "just cause" to beat Rush unconsious then leave him to die on the alien planet, why did he lie about it and plan to lie about it to his superiors on Earth?

s09119
April 11th, 2010, 02:38 PM
Hokay, let's assume that the very first thing that the refugees from Icarus base did was to set up some kind of civilian government to oversee the military and make any decisions (big or small) which would affect their day to day lives. What sort of changes would there be in these past dozen or so episodes?
Examples:
* food and water would still have been rationed. The military would have been called upon to see to the regulation of these resources, kind of like how they were ordered to do by Young.
* a "suggestion" would be made of getting the civilian population into better physical condition to help relieve boredom, stress and perhaps help them to survive in some as yet unforeseen situation, with the military serving as the instructors. This would be different in that in LIFE Young had "ordered" this activity. So, I suspect that there would be a lot more bored and unfit civilians moping around the ship with the civilian government.
* in LIGHT when the lottery was being held, it may have been structured an implemented differently with civilian governance. None the less, the military would have been called upon to oversee the results and put down any kind of a riot.

I'm not sure how the lot of the civilians would have been improved over the last while, nor do I see it becoming better with a change in governance.

regards,
G.

Having a military dictatorship and a democracy achieve the same results does not lessen the argument that people would generally prefer a democracy. Ask former residents of the Soviet Union if you don't believe me. Even when they're government falls flat on its face, they'd prefer it a million times over to being ruled by the barrel of a gun.

KEK
April 11th, 2010, 02:41 PM
Camille's argument was that the military was "refusing to submit to civilian leadership like free civilized nations".

There are several flaws with this argument:

1. The military ARE under civilian rule. They are United States Armed Forces personnel under the Constitution of the United States of America.

2. Destiny is not a nation or society. It is the evacuation site for a base run by the US military.

3. The Scientists and few civilians (with the exception of Camille) on Destiny are employees of the US government, many via the US Military, and under said nation's protection. This is the same situation as on the military research base that contacted Destiny to begin with, from which they evacuated.

4. Camille is a Civilian Oversight representative, not a Civilian leader like the Senator was, and thus has little actual authority.

5. None of the civilians have any qualification for any sort of actual leadership.

Camille's argument utilized a total distortion of reality to make a case for the organized military force on the ship to yield in subservience to a rag-tag group of civilian refugees.

This argument was unfounded, endangered the crew, and instigated a violent confrontation.

The US has no jurisdiction over a space ship on the other side of the universe. The military personnel are still under the command of their superiors, but the civilians there have no superiors, Young has no right to tell them what to do, or impose a military regime upon them.

SGTB1991
April 11th, 2010, 02:44 PM
Camille's argument was that the military was "refusing to submit to civilian leadership like free civilized nations".

There are several flaws with this argument:

1. The military ARE under civilian rule. They are United States Armed Forces personnel under the Constitution of the United States of America.

2. Destiny is not a nation or society. It is the evacuation site for a base run by the US military.

3. The Scientists and few civilians (with the exception of Camille) on Destiny are employees of the US government, many via the US Military, and under said nation's protection. This is the same situation as on the military research base that contacted Destiny to begin with, from which they evacuated.

4. Camille is a Civilian Oversight representative, not a Civilian leader like the Senator was, and thus has little actual authority.

5. None of the civilians have any qualification for any sort of actual leadership.

Camille's argument utilized a total distortion of reality to make a case for the organized military force on the ship to yield in subservience to a rag-tag group of civilian refugees.

This argument was unfounded, endangered the crew, and instigated a violent confrontation.

I just watched the new episode a week or so ago when they introduced the new bad guys, and I totally agree with you! It seems like the military command is really underappreciated by the civilians. In fact it almost seems anti-military in that Col. Young is so unlikable (in my opinion)...

Zkyire
April 11th, 2010, 06:44 PM
Main point people seem to be forgetting.

Destiny is not US property.

Destiny is not a US base.

Destiny is not a US ship.

Destiny is not even an Earth ship.

Even if Colonel O'Neill placed Young in charge, it still doesn't change the fact that O'Neill has no authority and/or jurisdiction to put Young in command, over a ship that doesn't even belong to them in the first place.

They are all guests, refugees, stowaways, whatever you want to call it.

If they don't want Young in charge, then the only thing that is keeping him there, are guns.

FallenAngelII
April 11th, 2010, 11:10 PM
If you had actually read my argument in the opening post, you would have been able to answer that question yourself.
:)
Your argument is inherently flawed and I have already addressed it (and you chose to ignore it).


Yes... that is what a ship Captain does. That is what a military base commander does.
He does more than command the military aspects of the expedition. He commands every single aspect of it, something he is not fit to do.

FallenAngelII
April 11th, 2010, 11:12 PM
I just watched the new episode a week or so ago when they introduced the new bad guys, and I totally agree with you! It seems like the military command is really underappreciated by the civilians. In fact it almost seems anti-military in that Col. Young is so unlikable (in my opinion)...
The problem is, as you said yourself, Colonel Young. The rest of the military is pretty benign (except for Greer, IMO). They're all just doing their best to keep everyone alive. The problem is Young, who's shown himself to be unfit to lead. This colors the civilians' perception of the military on-board since Young is the military leader of the expedition.

This is why the civilians now have a general distrust of the military. Because they know that Young tried to murder Rush and that many if not most of the military still support him despite his crime (TJ seemed to at least suspect it and she didn't actually confront him about it, Greer blatant said that he agrees with Young's decision and Scott can't be that naive).

Detox
April 12th, 2010, 12:14 AM
The civilian James knocked down wasn't just standing there. She told him to sit his ass down, he moved towards her to protest, and she knocked his dumb ass down. I think that was entirely justified.

If a cop told you to get on the ground, and you instead move towards him, he has every legal right to take you down.

Lahela
April 12th, 2010, 01:50 AM
The civilian James knocked down wasn't just standing there. She told him to sit his ass down, he moved towards her to protest, and she knocked his dumb ass down. I think that was entirely justified.

If a cop told you to get on the ground, and you instead move towards him, he has every legal right to take you down.

It may have been legal but it was still entirely unnecessary. The guy wasn't armed and looked to me to be confused and disoriented; she was pointing a weapon at him and she didn't even try repeating the order. Went straight for that good ol' standby - violence.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 02:09 AM
The civilian James knocked down wasn't just standing there. She told him to sit his ass down, he moved towards her to protest, and she knocked his dumb ass down. I think that was entirely justified.

If a cop told you to get on the ground, and you instead move towards him, he has every legal right to take you down.
He didn't move towards her in a threatening way. He barely even moved at all! He was just surprised, shocked, disoriented, deer in headlights. And she gave him only two seconds to react before beating him down violently in a way which could've seriously injured him!

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 12th, 2010, 03:58 AM
Detox,


The civilian James knocked down wasn't just standing there. She told him to sit his ass down, he moved towards her to protest, and she knocked his dumb ass down. I think that was entirely justified.

If a cop told you to get on the ground, and you instead move towards him, he has every legal right to take you down.

Not true. If the officer lacks reasonable suspion to hold and frist under Terry v. Ohio the Officer would be in deep trouble particularly if the civilian only walked toward the officer without raising a hand in any sort of threatening manner.

A question to everyone supporting Young. If as some have argued his actions against Rush can be explained as stress induced and are not related to instability or insanity wouldn't it make sense for him to share authority so, if nothing else, it reduces his own stress level and allows him to remain calm and therefore make better decisions?

asdf1239
April 12th, 2010, 04:12 AM
Main point people seem to be forgetting.

Destiny is not US property.

Destiny is not a US base.

Destiny is not a US ship.

Destiny is not even an Earth ship.

Even if Colonel O'Neill placed Young in charge, it still doesn't change the fact that O'Neill has no authority and/or jurisdiction to put Young in command, over a ship that doesn't even belong to them in the first place.
which is why woolsey had the authority to take command over atlantis, which also belonged to the ancients.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 04:16 AM
which is why woolsey had the authority to take command over atlantis, which also belonged to the ancients.
Using that same logic, if Wray goes to the IOA and tells them of the attempted murder, the IOA could force Young out of command.

asdf1239
April 12th, 2010, 04:21 AM
Using that same logic, if Wray goes to the IOA and tells them of the attempted murder, the IOA could force Young out of command.
how would they force him out of command? they would have no way to enforce their orders from earth on the ship.

Lahela
April 12th, 2010, 04:25 AM
Using that same logic, if Wray goes to the IOA and tells them of the attempted murder, the IOA could force Young out of command.

Indeed. In Earth, when she was speaking with (damn, I can never remember his name... Brom? the IOA head honcho) she said she didn't know which side was the better option. Obviously, by the end of Space she had made her choice.


how would they force him out of command? they would have no way to enforce their orders from earth on the ship.

Precisely. Which is what makes Young's leadership, in effect, a dictatorship.

asdf1239
April 12th, 2010, 04:27 AM
Precisely. Which is what makes Young's leadership, in effect, a dictatorship.
yes, it is

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 04:43 AM
how would they force him out of command? they would have no way to enforce their orders from earth on the ship.
Because Young only has command because Jack gave him his command. And the SGC now answers to the IOA. If Young goes against their orders, he is ruling by force. Not only will he have to justify that to the civilians, he will also have to justify it to his military subordinates, some which might not feel comfortable being a part of a military dictatorship.

An-Alteran
April 14th, 2010, 10:29 AM
FallenAngelII, I really find it quite insulting and disrespectful that you insist on voicing your opinions in this thread I started, when you obstinately declared that you didn't even read past the first part of my five part argument in the opening post.

Then, when I challenged you on that point: You accused me of ignoring you, which I obviously didn't do.

This demonstrates a great deal of intellectual dissonance and intellectual dishonesty on your part.


This is not a military operation. The United States Air Force never ordered an evacuation to the Ancient exploratory ship Destiny. Destiny is not a military base, it's a scientific outpost in space.
The Military ordered an evacuation through the gate to an evacuation site.
You are splitting hairs.


My argument is not an ad hoc, and it's not a "what if."
It is ad hoc, by definition.

It is also a what if scenario, by definition.


Young has already proven that he will defy Earth if he wants to ("Earth"), and that he will obey the orders of the Pentagon only as he sees fit. Therefore, he's already claimed that he will be the sole authority on the ship if it suits him, and again, this justifies the civilians completely.
You are still glaring past the obvious reality that Young is in charge by order of his supervisors.

Again: My argument deals with what "is" not speculation about what "might be".


The US has no jurisdiction over a space ship on the other side of the universe.
Yes they do.
The people are all US citizens under the authority of the US government, via the US Military.

That applies wherever they are. Whether on an uncharted isle in the middle of the Indian ocean, or in an uncharted galaxy aboard an abandoned Ancient ship.


The military personnel are still under the command of their superiors, but the civilians there have no superiors, Young has no right to tell them what to do, or impose a military regime upon them.
Young was their superior at Icarus. They were there and are now still under US military authority.
Except for Wray, but she was a guest at the base and thus under military authority by context.

The only superior that went through the Gate was the Senator. He died.


Your argument is inherently flawed and I have already addressed it (and you chose to ignore it).
I addressed every one of your points in detail including all your objections to my argument.
How dare you take my accusation to you, and take that and replace your name with mine.
That is what you just did.
You ignored what I said. I dealt with what you said.

You didn't read my argument. You admitted that.

My argument consisted of several points that formed a whole.

You ignored that.

How dare you accuse me of ignoring what I demonstrable interacted with.

What gall.


He does more than command the military aspects of the expedition. He commands every single aspect of it, something he is not fit to do.
In your opinion, alone. He has been placed in charge by his superiors. Not by you.


Main point people seem to be forgetting.

Destiny is not US property.
Yes it is. It is under salvage laws.
At best you could say it is nuetral ground.
And either way, that changes nothing about the chain of command which would be the same regardless of where they evacuated to.


Destiny is not a US base.
It is now.


Destiny is not a US ship.
It is now.


Destiny is not even an Earth ship.
I am not sure we know where it was built.
But the Ancients were centralized at Earth.


Even if Colonel O'Neill placed Young in charge, it still doesn't change the fact that O'Neill has no authority and/or jurisdiction to put Young in command, over a ship that doesn't even belong to them in the first place.
Salvage laws.

Besides that:
Your argument is non sequitor.
We are talking about the chain of command among people.
Not the location.

The location changes nothing.

The people are under Young's Command. The ship is a location, a tool, of that Command.

The ship is not a person under Young's command. Your argument makes no sense.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 14th, 2010, 10:41 AM
An-Alt,

You place great stock in the fact that O'Neill put Young in command. If O'Neill removes Young from command and promotes TJ or Rush to command how will O'Niell see that his order is followed? What happens if Young gives command the finger and does whatever the hell he wants. How do they stop him?

Orion475
April 14th, 2010, 10:56 AM
Yeah, i remember in the episode "Earth" that General O'Neill told Young that he is in charge and it is not a democracy aboard the ship. It's pretty apparent that the IOA will get there ass handed to them when they hear of the coup.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 14th, 2010, 11:01 AM
Orion,

"It's not a democracy!" yet Young had to be removed from command because he refused to execute those orders without the consent of those on board. Don't Young's actions suggest that even to the commander on the ground the situation appears far from normal? That bein the case why wpould normal rules apply?

blackluster
April 14th, 2010, 11:11 AM
Yeah, i remember in the episode "Earth" that General O'Neill told Young that he is in charge and it is not a democracy aboard the ship. It's pretty apparent that the IOA will get there ass handed to them when they hear of the coup.That was before Young's growing incompetence and attempted murder which would probably alter O'Neil's perception somewhat. I say that hesitantly though since I think O'Neil would continue to back Young even to everyone's doom. He cannot understand the state of the ship or Young's current demeanor.

In the sense of reason prevailing, I think the civilian revolt was completely justified to remove a leader who is jeopardizing everyone's lives. I don't see how even being an enlisted soldier legally binds you to follow an incompetent leader to your death. Were it not for Rush's unilateral actions, Young would have taken everyone down in a blaze of foolishness by now.

LiquidBlue
April 14th, 2010, 01:31 PM
I agree completely with the condemnations of the mutineers. While at Icarus base the people their were under the authority of their national governments/the IOA. This command structure carried over to Destiny and was confirmed through communication with earth through the communication stones.

The what-ifs and hypotheticals do not matter. When and if the Earth based authorities relieve Colonel Young of his command and he refuses then the legitimacy of his command can be questioned. The people on Destiny are still in communication with Earth, and are free to share their concerns and grievences with the people there. It does not seem the the mutineers bothered to share their concerns with Earth and have Colonel Young relived from command.

I agree that the physical seperation from Earth does give the people of Destiny a legitimate right to self determination independent of the desires of those on Earth. However, a small cabal of people are not justified in forceably seizing power for themselves. Rather if they feel that the leadership on earth does not represent their interests, it is time to break out Robert's Rules of Order and figure out for themselves what they want and how they are going to achieve it. If Colonel Young tried to prevent that sort of lawful and peaceful self organization and self determination, then I could see rebellion being justified.

The mutiny presented in Divided was not civilians vs. Military rather it was Rush with his desire for Destiny and Wrey with her desire for control inciting fear among a small group of the civilians in order to take control from Young. It was not a popular movement, nor was it performed through legitimate or justified channels.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 14th, 2010, 01:36 PM
LB,


I agree completely with the condemnations of the mutineers. While at Icarus base the people their were under the authority of their national governments/the IOA. This command structure carried over to Destiny and was confirmed through communication with earth through the communication stones.

The what-ifs and hypotheticals do not matter. When and if the Earth based authorities relieve Colonel Young of his command and he refuses then the legitimacy of his command can be questioned. The people on Destiny are still in communication with Earth, and are free to share their concerns and grievences with the people there. It does not seem the the mutineers bothered to share their concerns with Earth and have Colonel Young relived from command.

I agree that the physical seperation from Earth does give the people of Destiny a legitimate right to self determination independent of the desires of those on Earth. However, a small cabal of people are not justified in forceably seizing power for themselves. Rather if they feel that the leadership on earth does not represent their interests, it is time to break out Robert's Rules of Order and figure out for themselves what they want and how they are going to achieve it. If Colonel Young tried to prevent that sort of lawful and peaceful self organization and self determination, then I could see rebellion being justified.

The mutiny presented in Divided was not civilians vs. Military rather it was Rush with his desire for Destiny and Wrey with her desire for control inciting fear among a small group of the civilians in order to take control from Young. It was not a popular movement, nor was it performed through legitimate or justified channels.

I wonder how many people were on the fence about what happened or who opposed what Wray and Rush were doing? I wonder if many flipped their position when Lt. James smacked that civilian with her rifle butt? That said you are correct we don't really know what the political breakdown of supporters v. those just carried along was. However, the science team seems to have been pretty active in what went down.

Daro
April 14th, 2010, 11:00 PM
LB,



I wonder how many people were on the fence about what happened or who opposed what Wray and Rush were doing? I wonder if many flipped their position when Lt. James smacked that civilian with her rifle butt? That said you are correct we don't really know what the political breakdown of supporters v. those just carried along was. However, the science team seems to have been pretty active in what went down.

I think that Wray and Rush probably felt the situation out first. Wray especially is shown talking to some people about her feelings on the military and Young. The science team all seemed to be in the thick of it, and the ones shown talking to other civilians (and even military; remember when Caine asked Scott if he agreed with him and looked at him kinda meaningfully in 'Space?')

I think everyone on that side of the line was in on it. None of them were objecting to what was going on, after all. I think the science team was the most active because their leader had been greatly wronged (even if none of them actually like him, he's still their leader,) and also because viewers are familiar with them already. In fact, with the exception of Wray and Chloe, we don't really have non-scientist civilian characters to refer to, which I think should be rectified eventually. Scientists are more likely than the average joe to be liberal in their views and resentful of the military for oppression (or percieved oppression.)

You have a good point about James. I know if I hadn't been sure I was on the right side, that would have probably changed my mind. Really, it's the big thing the military got wrong in this episode. Other than that, and Greer holding a gun on Volker, there's really not much to say they were particularly brutal. It only takes one person or two losing their cool, though, to become a perfect example of the kind of thing the scientists and the civilians had a problem with.

Phenom
April 14th, 2010, 11:09 PM
I can't really see the alleged 'incompetence' that is constantly referred to when discussing Young. The only blip is the incident with Rush on the planet (unless I have forgotton stuff and I would love to be reminded) which certainly could have been handled differently.

The issue is with Wray and Rush. 2 people with extremely strong goals in relation to the ship, which may in fact eventually be polar opposite to each other but for now they share a common bond, the removal of Young. Simply, minor leadership issues relating to Young are being highlighted by Wray and Rush as they attempt to seize power.

Re the thread question, yeah it was justified. If the civilian group thinks they are justified in doing so then they are justified. Whether they are properly informed by those they are following is another thing.

Daro
April 14th, 2010, 11:34 PM
Young's leadership is flawed greatly. The very fact that he took revenge on Rush and tried to murder him, essentially, makes it more than a blip. It means he is a man that either doesn't respect the due process system he himself allowed and set up (for his own trial) or that he can't control himself. Probably both. Both would end the career of just about any leader in any free nation.

He's also shown little willingness to listen to the civilians. When Wray disagreed with him in the past, he threatened to remove her name from the lottery. He's ignored other concerns. The only way he listens to them at all it seems is through the kinos, and that's a problem too. He also sees problems and doesn't take action to fix them. Such as Spencer's deepening crisis. Young neither removed him from duty or even took away his gun. All he did was yell at him a few times, which he knew wasn't going to work. Greer even pointed it out at the time. And Greer himself is a Public Relations nightmare. His violent posturing and threats reflect poorly on the military as a whole, and Young is their commander. And, as I think blackluster pointed out in a post somewhere, Young risked the lives of everyone on the ship to save Scott (in 'Water') but didn't do the same for Chloe and Rush, which may make some think he's willing to destroy an innocent person to cover up what he did to Rush, or at the very least that he values the lives of his soldiers more than he does the lives of civilians.

These aren't small issues. I agree that Young's leadership is pretty solid up until "Life." He has faults, but if Divided had followed that episode, I would have been on the military's side. It's like he went off the deep end for about three episodes.

That said, I found little to object to in his leadership in "Divided." James and Greer were brutal, but Young himself was exactly what he should have been. He seemed to be saying at the end that he recognized his faults and would discuss possible ways to address civilian concerns. We'll see.

An-Alteran
April 14th, 2010, 11:45 PM
An-Alt,

You place great stock in the fact that O'Neill put Young in command.
Um... yes.
Because that is what 'is' the case.

Your point?

This is a chain of command and governmental authority issue.


If O'Neill removes Young from command and promotes TJ or Rush to command how will O'Niell see that his order is followed? What happens if Young gives command the finger and does whatever the hell he wants. How do they stop him?
That is an entirely different subject covering a hypothetical scenario that my post was never intended to cover.
My post deals with what is; not what might be.

Phenom
April 14th, 2010, 11:57 PM
Young's leadership is flawed greatly. The very fact that he took revenge on Rush and tried to murder him, essentially, makes it more than a blip. It means he is a man that either doesn't respect the due process system he himself allowed and set up (for his own trial) or that he can't control himself. Probably both. Both would end the career of just about any leader in any free nation.

He's also shown little willingness to listen to the civilians. When Wray disagreed with him in the past, he threatened to remove her name from the lottery. He's ignored other concerns. The only way he listens to them at all it seems is through the kinos, and that's a problem too. He also sees problems and doesn't take action to fix them. Such as Spencer's deepening crisis. Young neither removed him from duty or even took away his gun. All he did was yell at him a few times, which he knew wasn't going to work. Greer even pointed it out at the time. And Greer himself is a Public Relations nightmare. His violent posturing and threats reflect poorly on the military as a whole, and Young is their commander. And, as I think blackluster pointed out in a post somewhere, Young risked the lives of everyone on the ship to save Scott (in 'Water') but didn't do the same for Chloe and Rush, which may make some think he's willing to destroy an innocent person to cover up what he did to Rush, or at the very least that he values the lives of his soldiers more than he does the lives of civilians.

These aren't small issues. I agree that Young's leadership is pretty solid up until "Life." He has faults, but if Divided had followed that episode, I would have been on the military's side. It's like he went off the deep end for about three episodes.

That said, I found little to object to in his leadership in "Divided." James and Greer were brutal, but Young himself was exactly what he should have been. He seemed to be saying at the end that he recognized his faults and would discuss possible ways to address civilian concerns. We'll see.

Thanks for reminding me on some of the things I had forgotton re Young. I still feel though that he is the best to lead at the moment. Probably not that he is ideal, but when you look at the alternatives he is still the best of a bad bunch.

I feel that the key reason I am still leaning towards Young as my preferred leader simply because his intentions are clear. To get people home. Rush and Wray, who knows what they want to happen?

Daro
April 15th, 2010, 12:04 AM
That is an entirely different subject covering a hypothetical scenario that my post was never intended to cover.
My post deals with what is; not what might be.

Nonsense, that is a valid argument. In fact, that scenario has happened. Young did refuse an order, and as such was replaced by Telford. When Young found out, he told Gen. O'Neill and the air force that he would continue to keep in contact with Earth. After much consideration. He didn't come right out and say that he wouldn't follow orders, but he didn't have to. He already refused an order. Rightly so, I might add, since he felt the order would be disasterous. But if we're going to debate about the chain of command, I would say that it's already been broken.

Daro
April 15th, 2010, 12:10 AM
Thanks for reminding me on some of the things I had forgotton re Young. I still feel though that he is the best to lead at the moment. Probably not that he is ideal, but when you look at the alternatives he is still the best of a bad bunch.

I feel that the key reason I am still leaning towards Young as my preferred leader simply because his intentions are clear. To get people home. Rush and Wray, who knows what they want to happen?

For the most part, I agree with you. Rush should absolutely not be the commander. His priorities are not clear entirely, but he certainly isn't worried about getting home. Wray hasn't proven her qualities as a leader, but I think she would want to get home. She has something to go home to, after all, and Rush doesn't. Young is the strongest leader there, and I think that he is, despite his failings, a good man overall. I think Rush probably is a good man, but he's removed from normal human concerns, and he has lied himself into a corner.

What needs to happen, in my opinion, is to have Wray and Young be on equal footing, with different realms of control. Young is the senior military officer and his experience in dangerous situations is invaluable. Wray seems to be the civilians' chosen voice, so perhaps she (or Chloe, I'd feel better about Chloe) should be in charge of life aboard the ship in general and civilian concerns. Rush should just be in charge of his science team. Young and Wray need to keep an eye on him, but Rush is invaluable in a bad situation and has proven so numerous times.

ngewakl
April 15th, 2010, 12:40 AM
A Coup d'état implies that people on board the destiny are self-governing and independent. I think a mutiny would serve as a better term.

Daro
April 15th, 2010, 12:50 AM
We've got a thread for that further down, in which I posted the military code governing mutiny. As mutiny is not just a rebellion or a coup, but a rebellion by soldiers against their commander, civilians cannot (in the legal sense) be guilty of mutiny. In fact, you don't even have to be on a ship to commit mutiny; many famous mutinies have been committed on land.

Phenom
April 15th, 2010, 12:51 AM
For the most part, I agree with you. Rush should absolutely not be the commander. His priorities are not clear entirely, but he certainly isn't worried about getting home. Wray hasn't proven her qualities as a leader, but I think she would want to get home. She has something to go home to, after all, and Rush doesn't. Young is the strongest leader there, and I think that he is, despite his failings, a good man overall. I think Rush probably is a good man, but he's removed from normal human concerns, and he has lied himself into a corner.

What needs to happen, in my opinion, is to have Wray and Young be on equal footing, with different realms of control. Young is the senior military officer and his experience in dangerous situations is invaluable. Wray seems to be the civilians' chosen voice, so perhaps she (or Chloe, I'd feel better about Chloe) should be in charge of life aboard the ship in general and civilian concerns. Rush should just be in charge of his science team. Young and Wray need to keep an eye on him, but Rush is invaluable in a bad situation and has proven so numerous times.

Completely agree with this. I think I mentioned something similar on another thread in relation to having essentially leaders of areas in which they have expertise. Then they report above. If you were to do some sort of chain of command structure, these expert leaders (i.e the scientists etc) would report up to Wray or Chloe who would then have the ear of Young. Its just a bit of a rabble at the moment where Young is needing to delegate a little more rather than micro managing everything.

It will be interesting to see what Wray's motives are. She would have been placed in that position on Icarus with something in the works but once things turned pear shape, I am sure it has evolved and the IOA would certainly have something in line for her to achieve. No doubt it is something not in the best interest of the crew. Chloe on the other hand is pretty bright and has no obvious motives besides whats best for the crew. She would help form a pretty good command structure if she headed the civilian side of things.

Daro
April 15th, 2010, 12:54 AM
Completely agree with this. I think I mentioned something similar on another thread in relation to having essentially leaders of areas in which they have expertise. Then they report above. If you were to do some sort of chain of command structure, these expert leaders (i.e the scientists etc) would report up to Wray or Chloe who would then have the ear of Young. Its just a bit of a rabble at the moment where Young is needing to delegate a little more rather than micro managing everything.

It will be interesting to see what Wray's motives are. She would have been placed in that position on Icarus with something in the works but once things turned pear shape, I am sure it has evolved and the IOA would certainly have something in line for her to achieve. No doubt it is something not in the best interest of the crew. Chloe on the other hand is pretty bright and has no obvious motives besides whats best for the crew. She would help form a pretty good command structure if she headed the civilian side of things.

Indeed, I want questions answered about Wray. And I'm not sure how loyal she is to the IOA...afterall she expresses reluctance when her superior suggests she keep their interests at heart. And also, she is irate that she was passed over for promotion several times. She may feel that this was the result of discrimination against her because she's gay, in which case, if I were her, I wouldn't care what the IOA had to say.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 15th, 2010, 04:01 AM
An-Alt,


Um... yes.
Because that is what 'is' the case.

Your point?

This is a chain of command and governmental authority issue.


That is an entirely different subject covering a hypothetical scenario that my post was never intended to cover.
My post deals with what is; not what might be.

So, you refuse to address a situation that has already come up in the form of Young refusing to comply with O'Neill's orders? Who's to say it will not come up again? This isn't your standard military command situation. I'm trying to get you to recognize that fact.

EllieVee
April 15th, 2010, 04:48 AM
I don't think any of them actually thought Rush was going to try to get them home though. Hell that's one of the reasons they don't like him. He's arrogant and got them stranded etc.

I think the scientists thought he was working towards that goal. Brody, at least, asks why Young wouldn't let someone sit in the chair with Volker accusing Young of playing politics. They're clearly on Rush's side there.


Young was the one trying to get everyone home not Rush. Rush was just the only one with a chance of figuring it out.

What is Young doing to get them home?


Only during times of war in most civilized countries in the free world (such as Sweden). And what did Rush do that is tantamount to treason?

And treason against what country? He's Scottish and could not be charged with treason against, say, the US unless he is a citizen of that country. Treason against the IOA? It's not a country.


Also, if Young thought he was doing the right and legal thing, he wouldn't have lied about it.

This, totally.

FallenAngelII
April 15th, 2010, 06:10 AM
FallenAngelII, I really find it quite insulting and disrespectful that you insist on voicing your opinions in this thread I started, when you obstinately declared that you didn't even read past the first part of my five part argument in the opening post.
I'm replying to the posts which came after the OP.


Then, when I challenged you on that point: You accused me of ignoring you, which I obviously didn't do.
And I accused you of ignoring me when exactly? Also, could you be more vague? You challenged me on what point? The point that I stopped reading after your first point, which was totally ludicrous, unsubstantiated and went against established facts, thus I deemed the rest of your post to be the same?

Usually, you use your best arguments first and if that was your best arguments, I wasn't going to continue reading your mini-essay.


This demonstrates a great deal of intellectual dissonance and intellectual dishonesty on your part.
You making stuff up =/= Me being intellectually dishonest.


You are still glaring past the obvious reality that Young is in charge by order of his supervisors.
Because they do not know about the attempted murder yet.


Yes they do.
The people are all US citizens under the authority of the US government, via the US Military.
Which is given that power by the IOA.


Young was their superior at Icarus. They were there and are now still under US military authority.
If they report back to Earth, Young's command will be stripped. His only way of retaining command should Wray report back what has happened would be to lie under oath. And that would make him a coward and a power-hungry dictator.


I addressed every one of your points in detail including all your objections to my argument.
No you didn't. I replied to it in part and you didn't reply to those replies. Or at least not in a way which showed that you actually read my arguments properly.


My argument consisted of several points that formed a whole.
If a large chunk of it is flawed, then the whole thing comes apart.


In your opinion, alone. He has been placed in charge by his superiors. Not by you.
We've seen his command. His superior have not. Just because they put him there doesn't mean they should have. I'm tired of this "Well, the U.S. military put him in charge" BS. That makes him a good commander how now?

EllieVee
April 15th, 2010, 06:16 AM
If they report back to Earth, Young's command will be stripped. His only way of retaining command should Wray report back what has happened would be to lie under oath. And that would make him a coward and a power-hungry dictator.

He's lied about Rush and he's already been a dictator and a coward. Aside from the oath and power hungry bit, not much difference, eh.

FallenAngelII
April 15th, 2010, 06:26 AM
I'll address every single on of your arguments:



1. The military ARE under civilian rule. They are United States Armed Forces personnel under the Constitution of the United States of America.
We've already established that this is a flawed argument.


2. Destiny is not a nation or society. It is the evacuation site for a base run by the US military.
No it's not. What makes it an evacuation site run by the U.S. military? Because there's U.S. military present? Because Jack gave Young command? That command can easily be stripped if Wray reports to her superiors.

Also, it has now become a colony. Just because it was originally an evacuation site doesn't mean it still is.


3. The Scientists and few civilians (with the exception of Camille) on Destiny are employees of the US government, many via the US Military, and under said nation's protection. This is the same situation as on the military research base that contacted Destiny to begin with, from which they evacuated.
You haven't seen their contracts. They could be IOA employees. Also, it does not matter. They're no longer working under the U.S. military per se! Just because they might have been under military command before (and even then, just as with Daniel, as non-military, they didn't actually have to comply with military orders (they'd get punished, probably with dismissal, but it wasn't against any laws)).

Also, it is more than just an evacuation site. It's their new home, their colony, for a foreseeable future.


4. Camille is a Civilian Oversight representative, not a Civilian leader like the Senator was, and thus has little actual authority.
If the IOA chooses to give her command, then she will be above Young. Also, when your commander commits heinous violent crimes, it's perfectly legal to dispose of them (as commander as least). Seeing as how Young didn't seem willing to voluntarily relinquish power, Wray instated the coup. It's the same as if the POTUS went mad and started murdering people and then had the military protect him. The civilians would have every right to try to depose him.


5. None of the civilians have any qualification for any sort of actual leadership.
Neither is Young since he's a three-time (at least) violent criminal now (presented in chronological order: rape, aggravated assault and battery and attempted murder).


Camille's argument utilized a total distortion of reality to make a case for the organized military force on the ship to yield in subservience to a rag-tag group of civilian refugees.
You also seem to be under the delusion that the U.S. military personnel outnumber the civilians. From what we've seen, it's the opposite.


This argument was unfounded, endangered the crew, and instigated a violent confrontation.
It endangered the crew how exactly?

FallenAngelII
April 15th, 2010, 06:37 AM
He's lied about Rush and he's already been a dictator and a coward. Aside from the oath and power hungry bit, not much difference, eh.
Oh yes, but if this comes to pass, his defenders will no longer have any defense to his conduct. Haven't you been paying attention? The forum is divided. Many people support Young and defend his actions, arguing that he's not a power-hungry coward of a dictator at all.

But if he actually tries to punish Wray for her relatively tame "crimes" (which, as An-Alteran claims, "put the crew at risk") while simultaneously lying about his violent crimes, they'll no longer be able to justify his conduct. However, don't expect that to make his fans turn on him.

I'm a member of the "Naruto" fandom (it is unimportant if you are personally unfamiliar with it). In "Naruto", there's a character called Sasuke. For years he walked the fine line between full-blown villain and anti-hero and for years his defenders tried to excuse his actions with his tragic childhood, his psychological trauma, people manipulating him and the fact that he hadn't committed any actual crimes yet (the people he murdered were murderers themselves). Then, last year, he finally began entering villain territory. They still defended him, saying he was being manipulated and that the people he was plotting to kill had wronged him, so he was justified in murdering them in cold blood. Then a month ago, he entered full-blown deranged villain mode.

On that day, the argument magically changed to "Oh yes, he's a villain! But he's so cool! I love Sasuke as a villain! Best villain ever!".

The same will happen for Young if he does go down the villain road further. Because some people just cannot accept that their favourite character(s) are flawed. My favourite characters in all SGs are Daniel (SG-1), Rodney (SGA) and Rush (SGU). I recognize all of these characters' flaws. I like them as characters, not as human beings. I wouldn't trust Rush implicitly, I'd get regularly annoyed by Rodney (but I'd be able to keep up with him snark-wise) and I'd get infuriated with Daniel's naive-like optimism a lot of the time. But I at least admit that they are all flawed.

Some people cannot do that. They cannot admit that their favourite characters are flawed. That's why there are so many people scrambling to defend Young's attempted murder or the fact that Greer is characterized as having anger management problems.

You're not a bad person if you like an attempted murderer or a loose canon. You're a bad debater if you refuse to acknowledge their flaws and try justify them at all costs, however.

carmencatalina
April 15th, 2010, 06:40 AM
Is there any way to correct typos/misspellings in thread titles once they've started? The typo/misspelling in title of this thread hurts my brain and makes me sad.

EllieVee
April 15th, 2010, 06:42 AM
Entire post snipped for space:




You're not a bad person if you like an attempted murderer or a loose canon. You're a bad debater if you refuse to acknowledge their flaws and try justify them at all costs, however.

I am unable to green you for this post but imagine that I did anyway and when I've given out enough green to random strangers, I will green for the logic contained therein.


Is there any way to correct typos/misspellings in thread titles once they've started? The typo/misspelling in title of this thread hurts my brain and makes me sad.

One of the mods might do it if you ask.

FallenAngelII
April 15th, 2010, 06:51 AM
Is there any way to correct typos/misspellings in thread titles once they've started? The typo/misspelling in title of this thread hurts my brain and makes me sad.
The Thread Creator (and the TC alone) can petition the Moderators to change it for him or her. You cannot do this unless you are a Moderator (or get one to do it for you) nor can you petition to have other people's threads renamed.

Venderin
April 15th, 2010, 07:13 AM
The talk about "civilian control" in the last episode gets old fast. They HAVE civilian control, it is called Congress and the President. These control the Pentagon, and the Stargate Project is a Pentagon project, which Congress and the President are intimately familiar with - the President has even interfered directly on occasion in the past, and Universe started with a Senator visiting a Stargate base for evaluation. So they know what is going on and how the project is structured by the military, and the structure is obviously approved by them.

The Pentagon correctly appointed Colonel Young to lead this involuntary expedition, and the Pentagon is in contact with the ship through the stones. The ship is NOT a country, so all the talk about "civilian control," meaning Mr. and Mrs. Power Hunger want control, is just BS. They keep talking about authority on the ship as if it was a country, since they figure that is their best angle with the project employees. Next, are they going to hold elections for prime minister?

Maybe when back on earth Rush and Wray can run into a hospital and say, "This hospital should be under civilian control! You doctors wear some sort of uniform clothing, that means you must not be allowed to make decisions in the wards. We'll call that a dictatorship. I should decide how you do your work instead. We'll call that a democracy. Now bow to me, or I'll endanger many lives by hacking the hospital's computers."

On top of this, Rush lied early on, saying he had used the stones to contact earth and that the Pentagon put him in charge. That is serious. An attempt to usurp the command structure through falsehood in an emergency situation is potentially lethal, and a crime. He was trying to take control of military personnel that he had no authority to control.

Then, Rush tried to frame the commanding officer for murder. That is outright treason in a military expedition in hostile territory (which all space must be counted as, especially under these circumstances after their base was attacked), and treason in such a situation is punishable by execution in the field. Colonel Young was correct in carrying out an execution of Rush; and in order not to damage crew morale he chose to do it out of sight without revealing Rush's crime, by leaving Rush on an empty planet. An unorthodox method of execution, and Young could potentially be accused of cruel and unusual punishment, but that is all. Although it could be argued that it wasn't meant as an execution as all, that he commuted the sentence to exile.

Rush and Wray have since then engaged in further treasonous activity, and this time when the crew was under direct threat of destruction from pursuing enemy forces. Again, that is punishable with instant execution in the field. Colonel Young is being too lenient with these too, although that is his call. Colonel Young did not, however, have the right to submit to Wray's kangaroo court in an earlier episode - his job is to lead, it is not permitted for him to submit any part of the Stargate Project to authority not appointed by the Pentagon. In particular, he cannot submit military personnel to the authority of a civilian employee who has not been given that authority by the Pentagon.


On top of this, it is clear that many who react about Stargate: Universe are keeping real-life U.S. wars in mind, allowing their comments about Universe to be colored by their opinion about actions in those wars. Don't.

carmencatalina
April 15th, 2010, 07:30 AM
The Thread Creator (and the TC alone) can petition the Moderators to change it for him or her. You cannot do this unless you are a Moderator (or get one to do it for you) nor can you petition to have other people's threads renamed.

Thank you for the information - I will just have to hope that the person who started the thread asks for a change. Or live with the misspelling!

EllieVee
April 15th, 2010, 07:38 AM
Rush and Wray have since then engaged in further treasonous activity, and this time when the crew was under direct threat of destruction from pursuing enemy forces. Again, that is punishable with instant execution in the field. Colonel Young is being too lenient with these too, although that is his call. Colonel Young did not, however, have the right to submit to Wray's kangaroo court in an earlier episode - his job is to lead, it is not permitted for him to submit any part of the Stargate Project to authority not appointed by the Pentagon. In particular, he cannot submit military personnel to the authority of a civilian employee who has not been given that authority by the Pentagon.

Please explain how Rush can be charged with treason.

carmencatalina
April 15th, 2010, 07:42 AM
Since Rush isn't a member of the military or even (likely) a US citizen, I think the most that could happen would be that he could be fired. Taking him to court would require some exposure of classified information, and it isn't as though they could get away with calling him an "enemy combatant" and try him in some sort of military court.

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 15th, 2010, 07:45 AM
Is there any way to correct typos/misspellings in thread titles once they've started? The typo/misspelling in title of this thread hurts my brain and makes me sad.

*snorks* you too?
I've tried to block it out but it keeps glaring out at me :D

jelgate
April 15th, 2010, 10:50 AM
Wray and Rush if were back on Earth would be charged with something but engaging a munity is defiantly not treason. They did nothing to sell out their country. Or in Rush's case the country who pays him

ladypredator
April 15th, 2010, 03:04 PM
Is there any way to correct typos/misspellings in thread titles once they've started? The typo/misspelling in title of this thread hurts my brain and makes me sad.

Oh, I'm so glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. Things like that really bother me. At least use proper... well, French, in this case.

If I were onboard Destiny, I'd have felt the same way as all of the people who supported Camile. Young's behavior has deteriorated and I'd be extremely worried about having someone in command who attempted to murder someone. Nothing Rush had done or could've done deserved being beaten up and left for dead to die slowly of dehydration and starvation. That's horrible. And anyone who could do that should not be in charge, period. Add in the fact that the man he chose to kill is the best scientific expert they have and the only person with even a chance of figuring a way home and the fact that Young was keeping Camile or anyone else from reporting back to Earth (aliens or no aliens) and I'd be 100% behind locking him up and throwing away the key.

Rush made a mistake with the attempt to maneuver Young out of power they way he did - he screwed up - but Young's response proved that Rush was right to be deeply concerned about Young's instability and incompetence. Young's dangerous; he's not thinking clearly. Look at that absolutely ridiculous story he made up about Rush pocketing a communication stone. It's so silly, Rush doesn't even dignify it with a response. He ignores it and moves right into the real problem.

Is Camile the right person to be in charge... uhh... I wouldn't chose her.

Rush doesn't even want command. He just wants to be left alone to direct the scientific efforts to understand and control Destiny, which is supposed to be his responsibility. He'd go nuts having to cope with administrative and personnel issues. That's why he tried twice to put someone else - namely Camile - in charge instead of taking charge himself. It's not his focus; it would waste time he could spend on solving Destiny's mysteries.

But Young's cracked.

So the real question is who should be in command?
Not Young, probably not Camile (yet), Rush doesn't want it... who's left?

ladypredator
April 15th, 2010, 03:31 PM
Actually, I think the only thing Rush could be charged with is interfering with evidence in a crime scene. My field is medicine, not law, so I don't know what the penalties for that might be, esp. in an international organization and for a non-US citizen. I suppose they could officially 'deport' him, but that's rather silly at that point.

The issue of who has authority on Destiny is not clear-cut and since the people who 'mutinied' are civilians, I'm not sure it could even be called a mutiny. Isn't that a military thing?

Also, Rush was the Icarus Project Director - that's made clear in the pilot and echoed in Air-3 when he tells Scott and Greer that he had to review all the personnel files of the people selected for the project. Since the point of the Icarus Project was to get to Destiny and explore, a very good case could be made for him to be the one supposed to be in charge. Don't think he wants it, though.

EllieVee
April 15th, 2010, 07:07 PM
I think there's possibly a case for attempting to pervert the course of justice in the Young frame up. He'd get off, though, since Eli's shown the kino footage can be manipulated, and of course, Young has said it's his word against Rush's.

Daro
April 16th, 2010, 03:50 AM
Actually, I think the only thing Rush could be charged with is interfering with evidence in a crime scene. My field is medicine, not law, so I don't know what the penalties for that might be, esp. in an international organization and for a non-US citizen. I suppose they could officially 'deport' him, but that's rather silly at that point.

The issue of who has authority on Destiny is not clear-cut and since the people who 'mutinied' are civilians, I'm not sure it could even be called a mutiny. Isn't that a military thing?

Also, Rush was the Icarus Project Director - that's made clear in the pilot and echoed in Air-3 when he tells Scott and Greer that he had to review all the personnel files of the people selected for the project. Since the point of the Icarus Project was to get to Destiny and explore, a very good case could be made for him to be the one supposed to be in charge. Don't think he wants it, though.

No, civilians cannot be charged with mutiny under US law. It's a military designation. Maritime law may be different, but I don't think so. It's a rebellion, or a coup, etc. If, say, TJ had decided to help the civilians out, she would have been engaging in mutiny.
Either way, I'd bet that if Rush and Young ever made it back to Earth, Young would face much worse legal charges than Rush, because he'd probably be court martialed. But maybe not. Really, I think it's a moot point; Rush will probably die or ascend rather than return to Earth. There's nothing there for him.

I agree that Rush doesn't want power, but may be entitled to it, especially after seeing his conversation with O'Neill (in the extended DVD version of Air.) The fact that Rush doesn't actually want to command, but is willing to if he must, makes me like him. That's what I think a good and ethical leader should be like. Young doesn't want to be on Destiny, he wants to retire. But if he has to be there, he feels like he must command. It's sort of a control-freak thing, I suppose. And he is a high ranking military officer, so he's been trained to it.

Mr.Xcelent
April 16th, 2010, 01:22 PM
I think the only justification is that (if I remember correctly) Young was relieved from command in the previous episodes but chose to ignore that order, although my memory is a bit blurry on these events. Other than that there is indeed no justification, they should conform with the command structure ordered by earth

The only time Young was relieved of command was during the earth episode, and that was because he was not willing to test out there theory to use the power of a star to power the gate home. And he decided that because he was not willing to risk the crews life.

Mr.Xcelent
April 16th, 2010, 01:32 PM
"Which is why Col. Young has been picked up and held pending Courts Martial for attacking Col. Telford? It may be true but it has serious practical limitations."


when did this happen. In what episode. Yeah I recall when he attacked Col Telford, and before ya all start action holier then the rest of us. If I think you are making moves on my wife when I'm billions on light year away. Telling her lyes about me still sleeping with someone else after all the work I've done to try and repair the damage that I did. Be happy all you got is an a** Kicking. Guess what some people have been know to do worst with less to go on. And when was he court martial? I think i missed that episode to.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 16th, 2010, 02:05 PM
Mr. X.,


"Which is why Col. Young has been picked up and held pending Courts Martial for attacking Col. Telford? It may be true but it has serious practical limitations."


when did this happen. In what episode. Yeah I recall when he attacked Col Telford, and before ya all start action holier then the rest of us. If I think you are making moves on my wife when I'm billions on light year away. Telling her lyes about me still sleeping with someone else after all the work I've done to try and repair the damage that I did. Be happy all you got is an a** Kicking. Guess what some people have been know to do worst with less to go on. And when was he court martial? I think i missed that episode to.

You miss my point. I'm pointing out how Earth has very little control over the people on Destiny.

Addtionally, however justified we might find the beating it's a huge violation of the UCMJ. If Col. Young were as stand up as some believe he'd have relieved himself of command for what he did. Additionally, he framed Dr. Volker for the attack by telling the people on the receiving end of the stones that he was Dr. Volker then he went and attacked Col. Telford.

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 16th, 2010, 02:08 PM
Mr. X.,



You miss my point. I'm point out how Earth has very little control over the people on Destiny.

Addtionally, however justified we might find the beating it's a huge violation of the UCMJ. If Col. Young were as stand up as some believe he'd have relieved himself of command for what he did. Additionally, he framed Dr. Volker for the attack by telling the people on the receiving end of the stones that he was Dr. Volker then he went and attacked Col. Telford.

just to throw a spanner in the works, if there's very little control by Earth, isn't Young to be COMMENDED for even attempting to continue on with the chain of command?

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 16th, 2010, 02:11 PM
evilgrin,


just to throw a spanner in the works, if there's very little control by Earth, isn't Young to be COMMENDED for even attempting to continue on with the chain of command?

It depends upon the circumstances. In keeping Earth informed sure. If he attempts to use Earth as justification for remaining in charge when most want him to step down, no. Their communications with Earth are getting spotty at best. Once they're gone he needs something other than, SGC put me in charge, to justify his position of leadership. If fear that something will be his monopoly on firearms.

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 16th, 2010, 02:23 PM
evilgrin,



It depends upon the circumstances. In keeping Earth informed sure. If he attempts to use Earth as justification for remaining in charge when most want him to step down, no. Their communications with Earth are getting spotty at best. Once they're gone he needs something other than, SGC put me in charge, to justify his position of leadership. If fear that something will be his monopoly on firearms.

the communications with Earth aren't just spotty, they're dangerous

Want him to step down? Since when was any military establishment a democracy where if you didn't like your commanding officer, you can make him step down? He does have something other than the SGC putting him in charge (which is enough all on its own). He has force, which he has, and he has consent, which I think is what he's going for.

Daro
April 16th, 2010, 04:46 PM
the communications with Earth aren't just spotty, they're dangerous

Want him to step down? Since when was any military establishment a democracy where if you didn't like your commanding officer, you can make him step down? He does have something other than the SGC putting him in charge (which is enough all on its own). He has force, which he has, and he has consent, which I think is what he's going for.

That's the point. The civilians believe that they are no longer part of a democracy. They are cut off from Earth for all intents and purposes, and Young is not just an SG leader. He's a dictator who commits crimes and cannot be held responsible by the democracy that is supposed to be giving him orders. THey're trying to form their own society as a microcosm of what they had on Earth. And forcing a military leader to step down is something that happens in free nations all the time, when fault is found in that person's leadership.

EllieVee
April 16th, 2010, 04:51 PM
the communications with Earth aren't just spotty, they're dangerous

Want him to step down? Since when was any military establishment a democracy where if you didn't like your commanding officer, you can make him step down? He does have something other than the SGC putting him in charge (which is enough all on its own). He has force, which he has, and he has consent, which I think is what he's going for.

They're at the point where they're in for the long haul and I think they all know that. Rush has known it from the beginning but, I think, Wray's coup shows that she's accepted this, too. Once you're at that point you do not need a military dictatorship any longer.

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 16th, 2010, 05:22 PM
That's the point. The civilians believe that they are no longer part of a democracy. They are cut off from Earth for all intents and purposes, and Young is not just an SG leader. He's a dictator who commits crimes and cannot be held responsible by the democracy that is supposed to be giving him orders. THey're trying to form their own society as a microcosm of what they had on Earth. And forcing a military leader to step down is something that happens in free nations all the time, when fault is found in that person's leadership.


They're at the point where they're in for the long haul and I think they all know that. Rush has known it from the beginning but, I think, Wray's coup shows that she's accepted this, too. Once you're at that point you do not need a military dictatorship any longer.

I'm going to have to disagree with you both about it being a military dictatorship, but I'm quite willing to agree to disagree and move on to see what else there is there.

yes, they are trying to form their own society, no doubt there, but what is the basis of that society to be? Even if I concede the point, (which I'm not :) , I'd just rather discuss than argue), Rush/Wray, and their method of creating a 'side' is fraught with concerns. I don't agree with the term dictatorship, but if we use that term, what;s the point in exchanging one form of dictatorship for another?

As for forcing Young to step down, sure, militaries step down, no doubt there, but by the same token, military coups are used to create stable governments. If Young isn't fit to lead for his "crimes", then who is? Which one of them hasn't done something that should rule them out?

Yes, they are in for the long haul, but they have to get to that haul first. They have to get out of danger. Having the military remain in command until that power can, if needs be, passed on to a civilian govt (other than the one on Earth) chosen not by subterfuge and coup, but by democratic method. What would be prefereable? The scientists seizing power through a coup during a time of duress, or a rational selection done at a time when they are not in peril and can therefore think rationally?

Daro
April 16th, 2010, 07:31 PM
I agree that taking power through diplomacy is the wisest, safest choice. The civilians cannot trust Rush and Wray, they don't know what the two are all about. Neither, honestly, do we viewers. Previous to Divided, Young did not show much willingness to talk. Now, I think, that will change.

EllieVee
April 16th, 2010, 07:33 PM
I agree that taking power through diplomacy is the wisest, safest choice. The civilians cannot trust Rush and Wray, they don't know what the two are all about. Neither, honestly, do we viewers. Previous to Divided, Young did not show much willingness to talk. Now, I think, that will change.

Has he finally worked out that people don't like him much?

Daro
April 16th, 2010, 07:42 PM
Has he finally worked out that people don't like him much?

I'll have to wait until the thread for 'Faith' is posted before I can answer that question. BTW, anyone know how long it takes for the threads to go up?

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 19th, 2010, 06:45 AM
Ellievee,

I think it's pretty clear after the events in "Faith" Young recognizes his shortcomings. He's making an effort to correct those shortcomings. Whether Rush will reciprocate and whether Young will continue remains to be seen. We've seen that Young does pretty well when things are calm. How he performs under severe stress is less certain.

EllieVee
April 19th, 2010, 04:36 PM
Ellievee,

I think it's pretty clear after the events in "Faith" Young recognizes his shortcomings. He's making an effort to correct those shortcomings. Whether Rush will reciprocate and whether Young will continue remains to be seen. We've seen that Young does pretty well when things are calm. How he performs under severe stress is less certain.

Is he? He's still ordering people about. He's still making decisions by himself. Sure, he seems to have asked Rush and Wray their opinions but he's still the sole decision maker. Frankly, Rush was right about the shuttle. Young shouldn't have left it there. As for Brody and Park in the shuttle, after having guns put to my head, as soon as he said, 'You have a month to fix the shuttle,' I would have said, 'And this is me going on holiday, bye.'

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 21st, 2010, 05:26 AM
Ellie,


Is he? He's still ordering people about. He's still making decisions by himself. Sure, he seems to have asked Rush and Wray their opinions but he's still the sole decision maker. Frankly, Rush was right about the shuttle. Young shouldn't have left it there. As for Brody and Park in the shuttle, after having guns put to my head, as soon as he said, 'You have a month to fix the shuttle,' I would have said, 'And this is me going on holiday, bye.'

I can't say I wouldn't have been tempted to do the same thing. However, in a way, Rush getting up and back to work when still recovering was Rush's effort to mend fences. It's as if to say, I still don't like you but I recognize I can't sit on my hands and survive.

EllieVee
April 21st, 2010, 05:52 AM
Ellie,



I can't say I wouldn't have been tempted to do the same thing. However, in a way, Rush getting up and back to work when still recovering was Rush's effort to mend fences. It's as if to say, I still don't like you but I recognize I can't sit on my hands and survive.

I suspect it was less Rush attempting to fence mend than being bored lying around doing nothing.

Daro
April 21st, 2010, 11:12 AM
I'm with Ellie. Rush is a workaholic, if he'd lost a hand in the last episode he'd still be up and about pushing buttons with the nub. He gets up and works, but he would have done that no matter what was going on between him and Young. It's one of his most endearing qualities.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 21st, 2010, 11:44 AM
Daro,


I'm with Ellie. Rush is a workaholic, if he'd lost a hand in the last episode he'd still be up and about pushing buttons with the nub. He gets up and works, but he would have done that no matter what was going on between him and Young. It's one of his most endearing qualities.

Perhaps. Then again I'm the eternal optimist hopeing people will just get along.

:)

Rachel500
April 22nd, 2010, 03:22 AM
I haven't read through all of the thread so I may be duplicating somewhat but in regards to the OP...

I think the civilians had legitimate complaints. The civilians believed that the man entrusted with their safety had broken that trust by leaving one of them behind due to personal issues. They're stuck on an Ancient ship with no view of getting home any time soon and their civil liberties are being infringed upon via orders rather than through consensual agreement (room searches, rationing, being forced to exercise, attend psych evals). Attempts to discuss alternative ways of doing things are met with resistance and threat (such as Wray's alternative to the lottery). And finally, when Wray states that she'll report her suspicions, the communication stones are put off limits (and even though we know Young's motivation here was safety from Wray's POV as she said it seemed very convenient). If I was a civilian aboard the Destiny - even understanding that some things such as rationing and room searches were a necessary evil, I can't say I would be 100% happy with the leadership on board.

I will say they went about getting their complaints heard compeltely the wrong way in staging a coup.

But I think for them, the civilised ways of approaching Young to discuss their concerns might not have been considered an option. After all, Wray's previous attempts at providing input had been put down by Young. Add to that the events of Justice had widened the division and the civilians had seen how uncomfortable and unwilling the military on board were to take orders from a civilian authority.

In a tense environment where you don't feel that you can trust the guy in charge, communication with what should be your escalation structure is prevented and you seem to be constantly in the dark on decisions that are affecting your life, add in lack of sleep, poor nutrition and the very primal fear that you're going to die, and you have a bunched of stressed out people, I can see why they might have thought a coup was their only option.

I will agree that Camile's argument really was very weak in terms of context - the military on board is subject to civilian leadership from Earth - however, it's clear that the military leadership on board Destiny has become to be perceived by the civilians as a dictatorship that is not considering their viewpoint enough in decision-making. While Destiny was not initially anything more than an evacuation site for an off-world base, and while it made sense for the military to take command in the early days of the evacuation, as time goes on, Destiny is going to be more like a very remote colony from Earth that will need to determine its own governance structure. I'm certain whatever contract the civilians signed up to, that not one of them signed on to the Icarus project to live under the rule of the military for the rest of their lives.

I will say though that neither side really comes out smelling of roses. The civilians have legitimate complaints, so too have the military regarding the civilians' actions.

YutheGreat
April 22nd, 2010, 08:48 AM
First it isn't a Coup Coup is when military overthrows civilian here civilians rebelled or mutiny.

Anyway... Young isn't a tyrant. if he was he would thrown rush out of the airlock. I admit leaving Rush on the planet was severe okay real bad and makes it hard for them to trust but Rush did kind of deserve it. I wonder if this mutiny was bless by Earth Defense. I was expecting a trial of sorts in the nest epi oh well....