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View Full Version : Civillian or Military: What do you think follows our way of life in USA more?



timmciglobal
April 10th, 2010, 04:26 PM
This episode was great but it does leave me with a big question...

Civillian or Military, who should be in charge?

One aspect in SG-1 which was used quite a few times was that Daniel was not military and at no point "had to" follow any order given. He could be removed from the project but he was under no requirement to obey any order.

In this situation where they could be stranded a very long time and have basically removed themselves from direct homeworld control who should be in charge?

I think the obvious idea that the crew mutinied against "young" isn't really accurate. I'd say at least if they are american then young failed to recognize that the minute he stopped following all orders from his superiors and took on this ship as it having it's own "destiny" (no pun intended) then taking up arms against an attempt at civilian government is against the core beliefs of this country and in a way treason.

I was really hoping this episode ended with the people refusing to go and instead someone saying something like 'We the people refuse to allow a military dictator to control our lives."

Tim

timmciglobal
April 10th, 2010, 04:29 PM
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Read that and tell me it doesn't apply.

Tim

ZGoten
April 10th, 2010, 04:34 PM
In my opinion, it doesn't matter if the leading person is civilian or military. All that counts is that he/she does a good job.
If Wray would be the leader, it'd be a dictation, too, uness of course she decided to build a democracy in which case the whole crew might be goners, once the aliens attacked again.

Freshpez
April 10th, 2010, 04:37 PM
I can't believe the mild hate on reaction that seems to be following the military in this episode. They were locked in their rooms and threatened with starvation unless they followed the civilians demands. Is anyone surprised that they refused to negotiate with a proverbial knife at their throats?

Everyone seems to be acting like we're talking about a first world country with plenty of resources and no threats. We're talking about 80 people under attack and short on resources. What are we supposed to have, a town council? Wray as President for four years? A supreme court?

I think the best way to think of the situation on Destiny is one where there should be martial law due to the ongoing emergency. And so the military is in charge.

Or why can't we blame the civilians for not starting with petitions or a sit in, or even TALKING to the military? I think it would have been hiliarious if the aliens had boarded the Destiny after the civilians had just locked up and disarmed the military. Who's going to save you now huh?

Secondly, is everyone forgetting Rush's actions that started this whole thing? He set conditions that allowed someone to sit in the alien control chair, a guy who's still in a coma. He then framed Young for murder, and then told Young, "It'll never be over!"

And the military is just supposed to take it? And now we're picking on James for punching a guy in the face? Oh, so sorry we hurt you, we should have let you lock us up and starve us.

Joachim
April 10th, 2010, 04:37 PM
I was really hoping this episode ended with the people refusing to go and instead someone saying something like 'We the people refuse to allow a military dictator to control our lives."

Likewise. They gave up too easily, when Young got there and they were told to leave, I was hoping - no, almost expecting - someone to stand up and say "No. We made a stand for a reason, we're not giving up. We have something to say."

timmciglobal
April 10th, 2010, 04:49 PM
Martial Law still has a civillian leader he just exerts absolute control for a short period of time.

So far destiny has been at space so long they've developed drugs, a hydroponics pay, mending cloth... I'd say it's far past "emergency" and any reasonable group would of demanded civillian oversight or justice.

And to the "anti-military" yes... that's because any military leader who refuses to yield control to civilians has without exception been an enemy of the American way of life. That's part of being American I'd say. The belief that military officers should never supersede the will of the collective people. Not replace one dictator with another but have some form or method of choosing your leaders and those who govern your life.

Galidin

jelgate
April 10th, 2010, 04:51 PM
Neither should be in charge. I'm convinced if the civilians were completely in charge the same thing would happen and well we already saw what happened with complete military control. A balance needs to be found

Kaiphantom
April 10th, 2010, 04:54 PM
I can't believe the mild hate on reaction that seems to be following the military in this episode. They were locked in their rooms and threatened with starvation unless they followed the civilians demands. Is anyone surprised that they refused to negotiate with a proverbial knife at their throats?

You may as well decry the American Revolution, and the American's barbarous tactics of shooting the Britsh from cover. Or the French revolution, for daring to go against the aristocracy.

People have the right to be ruled how they want to; not how someone else says so.

reddevil18
April 10th, 2010, 04:54 PM
Likewise. They gave up too easily, when Young got there and they were told to leave, I was hoping - no, almost expecting - someone to stand up and say "No. We made a stand for a reason, we're not giving up. We have something to say."Me too. I'd have loved that. And then Greer can shoot that motherfrakker in the head and Young'd be like "Anyone else?"

reddevil18
April 10th, 2010, 04:59 PM
People have the right to be ruled how they want to; not how someone else says so.Except that's not how it works. Even in a democracy, you're still doing what someone else says in the grand scheme of things.

And the main thing people keep ignoring is that they're not a friggin independent country. They might be isolated from Earth, but they're still under their authority. Young was placed in charge by O'Neill, a Lieutenant-General who presumably takes orders straight from the President.

timmciglobal
April 10th, 2010, 05:06 PM
That ended when Young stoped taking orders and doing what he was told.

You can't have it both ways. You can't limit who can contact earth, who can be represented, who can do what and say it's under military authority yet then disobey the orders of your superior officers when it's convenient for you.

Young gave up his logic when he disobeyed.

Tim

Freshpez
April 10th, 2010, 05:06 PM
And the main thing people keep ignoring is that they're not a friggin independent country. They might be isolated from Earth, but they're still under their authority. Young was placed in charge by O'Neill, a Lieutenant-General who presumably takes orders straight from the President.

THANK YOU. They're in a distant galaxy being attacked, not a university campus. Oh how I want Wray gone. Talk about someone who's completely useless in their current situation. But that's the point of the character, to make people like me hate her.

Here's another way to look at it. What do you think would have happened if they had tried to lock up and threaten the Chinese or Iranian militaries? Do you think that when those less honourable soldiers were released they'd only punch a few people in the nose? Um, I'm pretty sure Wray and maybe Rush would have been spaced.

That would be my main complaint with these three fantastic episodes, I'm betting we're all going to get over this way too quickly. Hope I'm wrong.

The Shrike
April 10th, 2010, 05:10 PM
Me too. I'd have loved that. And then Greer can shoot that motherfrakker in the head and Young'd be like "Anyone else?"Then at an undetermined time in the future the civilians, who are now all on the same page, pull the same stunt again, but this time they expose the segregated military types to the vaccuum of space, ending the war in one bold stroke.

Freshpez
April 10th, 2010, 05:10 PM
You may as well decry the American Revolution, and the American's barbarous tactics of shooting the Britsh from cover. Or the French revolution, for daring to go against the aristocracy.

People have the right to be ruled how they want to; not how someone else says so.

Sheesh. I think comparisons to the American or French Revolutions are overblown. They've been on the ship for what, a month? Young left a guy on a planet who framed him for murder, and declared, "It'll never be over!" And that was after Young said, "Are we done?"

Come to think of it, Young has offered Rush peace twice now, and has been rejected twice. So why is Rush not getting beat up in the forums?

Orion's Star
April 10th, 2010, 05:47 PM
You may as well decry the American Revolution, and the American's barbarous tactics of shooting the Britsh from cover. Or the French revolution, for daring to go against the aristocracy.

People have the right to be ruled how they want to; not how someone else says so.

Er...yeah, I'm not sure using the French Revolution is really all that great an example to prove your point, considering the peasants, after overthrowing the aristocracy, murdered thousands of people, committed regicide, and created such a clusterfrak of a political situation that Napoleon was able to come to power, rule as military dictator, and plunge most of Europe into a war that lasted several years.

So yeah, actually, I wouldn't mind seeing Wray and company go down the path of the French Revolution. Might be entertaining.

"Off with their heads!"

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 05:50 PM
That ended when Young stoped taking orders and doing what he was told.

You can't have it both ways. You can't limit who can contact earth, who can be represented, who can do what and say it's under military authority yet then disobey the orders of your superior officers when it's convenient for you.

Which orders did he disobey and who did he not allow to contact Earth? If you mean Wray in the last episode, Space, then I think he had a pretty damn good reason.

timmciglobal
April 10th, 2010, 06:04 PM
He refused to follow oneils orders and gave that entire speech in homeworld command about him deciding what is best for the crew.

I'm not saying he was wrong but the "military control" thing stops when you stop taking orders from your superiors.

Tim

The Shrike
April 10th, 2010, 06:09 PM
Which orders did he disobey and who did he not allow to contact Earth? If you mean Wray in the last episode, Space, then I think he had a pretty damn good reason.I imagine he was afraid she'd go over his head and talk to General O'Neil.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 06:15 PM
I imagine he was afraid she'd go over his head and talk to General O'Neil.

Or he was afraid she would end up on the enemy ship like he did, try to talk her way out of things and end up dead.

The Shrike
April 10th, 2010, 07:25 PM
Or he was afraid she would end up on the enemy ship like he did...A convenient excuse, if ever there was one.

Joachim
April 10th, 2010, 07:33 PM
Then at an undetermined time in the future the civilians, who are now all on the same page, pull the same stunt again, but this time they expose the segregated military types to the vaccuum of space, ending the war in one bold stroke.
At which point, given their history, I can only rejoice.

Khentkawes
April 10th, 2010, 07:54 PM
And the main thing people keep ignoring is that they're not a friggin independent country. They might be isolated from Earth, but they're still under their authority. Young was placed in charge by O'Neill, a Lieutenant-General who presumably takes orders straight from the President.

I don't think people are "ignoring" anything, just interpreting the situation differently. You've interpreted that the Destiny is still under the command of Earth's military (technically, the US military). I've interpreted the situation differently. I see Destiny as cut-off from Earth's control both practically because of the distance, and ideologically because of the stand Young took in "Earth" when he stood up to General O'Neill. At the moment, the US military and the IOA cannot exert any control over the Destiny, and Colonel Young basically claimed independence on behalf of everyone on board. So if they're not under US military control, then that makes them an independent entity who can establish their own government.

So it all depends on how you interpret the Destiny's current status. I'm not saying that either interpretation is necessarily correct, but it's not a simple black-and-white issue.

Joachim
April 10th, 2010, 08:00 PM
Although to be perfectly honest, the reasonable response is that they are an independant entity. ;)

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 10th, 2010, 08:29 PM
Freshpez,


I can't believe the mild hate on reaction that seems to be following the military in this episode. They were locked in their rooms and threatened with starvation unless they followed the civilians demands. Is anyone surprised that they refused to negotiate with a proverbial knife at their throats?

Everyone seems to be acting like we're talking about a first world country with plenty of resources and no threats. We're talking about 80 people under attack and short on resources. What are we supposed to have, a town council? Wray as President for four years? A supreme court?

I think the best way to think of the situation on Destiny is one where there should be martial law due to the ongoing emergency. And so the military is in charge.

Or why can't we blame the civilians for not starting with petitions or a sit in, or even TALKING to the military? I think it would have been hiliarious if the aliens had boarded the Destiny after the civilians had just locked up and disarmed the military. Who's going to save you now huh?

Secondly, is everyone forgetting Rush's actions that started this whole thing? He set conditions that allowed someone to sit in the alien control chair, a guy who's still in a coma. He then framed Young for murder, and then told Young, "It'll never be over!"

And the military is just supposed to take it? And now we're picking on James for punching a guy in the face? Oh, so sorry we hurt you, we should have let you lock us up and starve us.

I think the mutiny was too much too soon. The simpler course of action would have been a work stoppage by the civilian personel. What can the military do threaten to kill the people they need to keep the ship running. The end result would have been a power sharing plan. That, at the end of the day, is the best they can hope for anyway.

Kaiphantom
April 10th, 2010, 09:59 PM
Except that's not how it works. Even in a democracy, you're still doing what someone else says in the grand scheme of things.

A study of political science will explain why that is. People consent to be governed, even when it results in things they don't like... because they perceive it is a fair and just system. Generally speaking, those in power only rule with the consent of the people; if they screw up too badly so that the people are unhappy, you get revolutions.... which is what happened here. There is a very important distinction to be made, which you have glossed over.


And the main thing people keep ignoring is that they're not a friggin independent country. They might be isolated from Earth, but they're still under their authority. Young was placed in charge by O'Neill, a Lieutenant-General who presumably takes orders straight from the President.

Except it is now; Young has already split himself from the authority of the SGC and the IOA. So they ARE an independent country for intents and purposes.

Replicator Todd
April 10th, 2010, 10:33 PM
I'd say civilians but I think a balance may possibly be needed. The civilians are the true voice of the nation IMO.

Giantevilhead
April 11th, 2010, 12:11 AM
Both sides are too stupid to live but the civilians are even dumber than the military considering how crappy their plan to take control of the ship was. Honestly, how the heck were they planning to maintain control of the ship if the military capitulates to their demands?

reddevil18
April 11th, 2010, 05:25 AM
Except it is now; Young has already split himself from the authority of the SGC and the IOA. So they ARE an independent country for intents and purposes.
Except they haven't. He told them he won't take their crap because HE's the one on site and knows what happens, but he's still under their authority. If he weren't, why would he still be reporting to Earth or getting assistance as was the case with the doctor?

And you don't seem to comprehend the situation too well. What happened on the Destiny wasn't a revolution. It was an insurrection. Seriously, why don't you people understand? The USAF is under civilian authority. Young is a USAF Colonel so, ultimately, he is under civilian authority. But not civilians on site. Civilians who are all under contracts with the USAF and IOA, aside from Chloe. Simply put, it was and always will be Young's command because that's just the way it is. The Destiny isn't its own nation, Wray isn't their President and the military personnel aren't their own private army, no matter what the political machinations on board will tell you. I long for an Earth-based authority figure to use the stones and lay down the law. And I don't mean Telford. Get O'Neill on-line for a few seconds.

The Shrike
April 11th, 2010, 05:40 AM
....Get O'Neill on-line for a few seconds.Bingo, and the first thing I'd ask him is if he'd completely ignore Samantha Carter if she told him diverting power to the weapons systems would weaken the sheilds too much and get them killed. We all know what the answer would be, because Jack has no problem checking his ego and deferring to the experts in such matters. That of course is the difference between a real leader a person who'd be better off following the orders of others.

mjwalshe
April 11th, 2010, 07:17 AM
This episode was great but it does leave me with a big question...

Civillian or Military, who should be in charge?

One aspect in SG-1 which was used quite a few times was that Daniel was not military and at no point "had to" follow any order given. He could be removed from the project but he was under no requirement to obey any order.

Tim

well he is still an employee of the stargate program and if Jack is your boss you still have to follow his instructions Daniel and Rodney arnt bound by milatery disapline (ie the RSM cant put him on a charge for having long hair) but the normal employer employee realsionship still exists. if you ingnored a direct instruction from your boss you would get sacked.

Coronach
April 11th, 2010, 08:21 AM
Except they haven't. He told them he won't take their crap because HE's the one on site and knows what happens, but he's still under their authority. If he weren't, why would he still be reporting to Earth or getting assistance as was the case with the doctor?

He's still reporting to Earth because he's decided he is still up for it. From the episode "Earth":


O'NEILL: Colonel Telford was following orders.

YOUNG: Sure. After much consideration, we've decided to stay in communication with Earth. I hope personal visits for everyone on board will still be permitted.

That doesn't sound like someone who's still under the command of anyone. Additionally, he says this a few lines later:


(He looks at his watch.)

YOUNG: I'm afraid the time that I've allotted for this briefing is now up.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have never heard of a subordinate being the one announce his leaving. Usually it's the superior officer (or what have you) that dismisses them. He isn't showing much regard for chain of command, imo.


And you don't seem to comprehend the situation too well. What happened on the Destiny wasn't a revolution. It was an insurrection. Seriously, why don't you people understand? The USAF is under civilian authority. Young is a USAF Colonel so, ultimately, he is under civilian authority. But not civilians on site. Civilians who are all under contracts with the USAF and IOA, aside from Chloe. Simply put, it was and always will be Young's command because that's just the way it is. The Destiny isn't its own nation, Wray isn't their President and the military personnel aren't their own private army, no matter what the political machinations on board will tell you. I long for an Earth-based authority figure to use the stones and lay down the law. And I don't mean Telford. Get O'Neill on-line for a few seconds.

And I think where you and I (and other posters here) differ, is that Young being under anyone's authority is essentially a useless assertion if (1) He's making decisions that shouldn't be his to make (i.e. deciding to continue contact with Earth) and (2) If said authority can do absolutely nothing (in the long run) to actually enforce their command.

This is why the situation is more complicated than it's being made out to be.

Personally, I think there needs to be some sort of joint leadership for the majority of decisions made on Destiny, though I'm willing to admit that Young (or someone in his position) should reserve full military right in combat or military situations (i.e. aliens attacking). Of course, he should definitely still consult with people who know more than him in such situations (i.e. Rush and Eli telling him to keep all power diverted to the shields). That said, I give him leadership points for actually deferring to Eli in the end.

Hope that was all understandable. :S

FallenAngelII
April 11th, 2010, 09:27 AM
A civilian oversight committee with the military serving as its guard. That's how civilized society is built and that's what should go on the ship. That said, it doesn't mean that the committee must consist of only civilians. Members of the military can also be a part of that oversight committee. For one thing, Young could be a member of the committee and in charge of security.

Because with only one person in charge, it's a dictatorship. The fate of everyone aboard that ship will rest solely on that person's judgment. With co-"rulers", there'll be several voices of reason. The more eyes involved, the more probable it is you'll spot any mistakes.

garhkal
April 11th, 2010, 03:08 PM
Me too. I'd have loved that. And then Greer can shoot that motherfrakker in the head and Young'd be like "Anyone else?"

I said it before, but that would have segmented thigns even worse. And depending on WHO he shot, might have taken away a valuable person.

Lord Hurin
April 11th, 2010, 03:20 PM
A civilian oversight committee with the military serving as its guard. That's how civilized society is built and that's what should go on the ship. That said, it doesn't mean that the committee must consist of only civilians. Members of the military can also be a part of that oversight committee. For one thing, Young could be a member of the committee and in charge of security.

Because with only one person in charge, it's a dictatorship. The fate of everyone aboard that ship will rest solely on that person's judgment. With co-"rulers", there'll be several voices of reason. The more eyes involved, the more probable it is you'll spot any mistakes.

But if Wray takes over and installs herself as the new leader it would be the same situation in reverse. She doesn't seem to like the military personnel too much.

I take it that's fine with you, though.

jds1982
April 11th, 2010, 06:07 PM
Personally, I think there needs to be some sort of joint leadership for the majority of decisions made on Destiny, though I'm willing to admit that Young (or someone in his position) should reserve full military right in combat or military situations (i.e. aliens attacking). Of course, he should definitely still consult with people who know more than him in such situations (i.e. Rush and Eli telling him to keep all power diverted to the shields). That said, I give him leadership points for actually deferring to Eli in the end.

Hope that was all understandable. :S

It was understandable, and is the most logical course of action at this point. Will that happen now, and is it something that would happen in the real world? I doubt it.

kymeric
April 11th, 2010, 06:30 PM
Well in america ur vote dosent count unless ur a large corporation looking to make a crap ton of money at poor peoples expense.... so i dont see how its relevant

lolz

TheLastSunset
April 11th, 2010, 07:49 PM
I think anarchism is the goal for them to have.

FallenAngelII
April 11th, 2010, 11:39 PM
But if Wray takes over and installs herself as the new leader it would be the same situation in reverse. She doesn't seem to like the military personnel too much.

I take it that's fine with you, though.
http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/74055-Power-should-be-shared

carnivore
April 12th, 2010, 01:59 AM
Has nobody realized yet that the Wray character as portrayed is basically the same as that of the type of political officer that the Soviets routinely attached to all military units? To even suggest that she represents American values is ridiculous.

Furthermore, it seems like everyone is forgetting that both military and civilian tradition (international as well as American) has always accorded extraordinary powers and responsibilities to the captain of a vessel, whether that vessel be on water, in air or in space. This tradition recognizes that when cut off from outside support in a generally hostile environment, it is necessary to have a clear chain of command for quick and absolute decisions and that ruling by committee is a prescription for disaster. Needless to say, Colonel Young is the Captain of the ship.

Lahela
April 12th, 2010, 02:11 AM
Needless to say, Colonel Young is the Captain of the ship.

Why? Because he's a colonel? So what?

carnivore
April 12th, 2010, 02:26 AM
Why? Because he's a colonel? So what?

1. Law of salvage. He commanded the forces that took the ship in the begining.

2. By right. No one doubted the fact that Stargate Command was in charge of the original expedition before they went through the gate. SGC gave him command.

3. By succession. Telford was supposed to be the leader. It's only natural that the ranking officer take his place.

4. By profession. Granted the technology is literally out of this world, but beneath it all, Destiny is a ship. He and Scott are the only pilots on board (weak, but I couldn't resist).

5. By force of arms. Obvious.

Lahela
April 12th, 2010, 02:44 AM
1. Law of salvage. He commanded the forces that took the ship in the begining.

2. By right. No one doubted the fact that Stargate Command was in charge of the original expedition before they went through the gate. SGC gave him command.

3. By succession. Telford was supposed to be the leader. It's only natural that the ranking officer take his place.

4. By profession. Granted the technology is literally out of this world, but beneath it all, Destiny is a ship. He and Scott are the only pilots on board (weak, but I couldn't resist).

5. By force of arms. Obvious.

1. He commanded the military people that happened to evacuate with everyone else. Doesn't make him commander of those other non-military people.

2. What right? He commanded the military contingent on Icarus. It wasn't run by the SGC, it was scientific research outpost with military support.

3. Succession to command the military, sure. But anyone else, not so much.

4. Civilians can pilot too, and seeing as Scott had only ever piloted a simulator before (as stated in Air) it can't be that hard to learn to fly the shuttle. And Rush can fly the alien mini-ship.

5. And there you have the crux of the matter. ;)

carnivore
April 12th, 2010, 03:15 AM
1. He commanded the military people that happened to evacuate with everyone else. Doesn't make him commander of those other non-military people.

2. What right? He commanded the military contingent on Icarus. It wasn't run by the SGC, it was scientific research outpost with military support.

3. Succession to command the military, sure. But anyone else, not so much.

4. Civilians can pilot too, and seeing as Scott had only ever piloted a simulator before (as stated in Air) it can't be that hard to learn to fly the shuttle. And Rush can fly the alien mini-ship.

5. And there you have the crux of the matter. ;)

1. Scott was first through the gate and it was the military that literally took control as the expedition came through. The ship was "boarded" and "taken" by the guys with guns. The civilians (with the exception of Rush) were in a daze. Rush actually tried to take command (by claiming that SGC had put him in charge - whatever happened with that lie?) and was brushed off. Colonel Young salvaged the ship (see #5) and became captain.

2. I'll have to re-view the first episode. I thought that Young was the head of Icarus and the presumptive leader of the expedition until he backed out to save his marraige.

3. The decision between a military or civilian leader normally goes deeper than a pure personnel decision; it indicates what the primary nature is of the job. My assumption is (and you don't have to agree) that the first decision was that the leader of the expedition would be military (like the original SG teams that nevertheless included civilian personnel), and only afterwards was Telford selected from a pool of eligible officers. Accordingly, the job was military in nature and would be sunject to military succession.

4. I could be a pilot too ... if I'd ever learned how. The point is that there is no evidence that any of the civilians learned either. In such a situation it's only natural that an experienced Air Force officer (and as you point out, the only one with actual flight experience) take over. And by the way, the fact that Rush managed to fly an alien craft "on the fly" (pun intended) is a really weak point in the plot.

5. So I see that we agree. :)

thekillman
April 12th, 2010, 03:21 AM
the civvies are the wrong people in the wrong place. the millitary are the right people in the wrong place. though i recommend Wray just takes care of resource managment and all, and Young does the millitary stuff like protection and exploration

Lahela
April 12th, 2010, 03:25 AM
I disagree with your interpretation of point number 1. And there's no evidence that it was actually a lie.

2/3 My problem with the comparison to the mission as intended is that these are not the people who were going to be on the original mission, so I don't see how the same rules or structure would necessarily apply.

4 There's no evidence that none of them are not qualified pilots either. Sure, Scott was the best person to fly the shuttle in the sorties against the blue guys, and for that the crew should be glad he's there, but having one pilot amongst your numbers doesn't make you captain.

5 :)

Lahela
April 12th, 2010, 03:26 AM
the civvies are the wrong people in the wrong place. the millitary are the right people in the wrong place. though i recommend Wray just takes care of resource managment and all, and Young does the millitary stuff like protection and exploration

This. And Rush's scientific expertise not be constantly undermined by people who do not know better.

Lord Hurin
April 12th, 2010, 06:30 AM
This. And Rush's scientific expertise not be constantly undermined by people who do not know better.

I still believe that an eye needs to be kept on Rush. He isn't in line with the one objective everyone else has: getting home.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 08:00 AM
I still believe that an eye needs to be kept on Rush. He isn't in line with the one objective everyone else has: getting home.
Speculation. We have never seen Rush do anything that indicates he doesn't want to get home. We have merely heard characters discuss their belief that he doesn't want to get home.

Lord Hurin
April 12th, 2010, 08:06 AM
Speculation. We have never seen Rush do anything that indicates he doesn't want to get home. We have merely heard characters discuss their belief that he doesn't want to get home.

And when has he ever said that he does or that he's been helping to get home? It's speculation in both ways. Most of Rush's motives are. That's why he's so interesting (and frustrating) to watch.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 08:15 AM
And when has he ever said that he does or that he's been helping to get home? It's speculation in both ways. Most of Rush's motives are. That's why he's so interesting (and frustrating) to watch.
Oh gee, more strawmanning. Who would've guessed? You didn't just speculate, you stated it like it was a fact: "He isn't in line with the one objective everyone else has: getting home.". Not a trace of uncertainty or any indication of that you're merely speculating.

We've never seen anyone on the ship successfully do anything that helps the expedition to find their way back home. Does that mean that they are all actively working against finding a way back home? I mean, we haven't seen it. We also haven't seen them go to the bathroom. I guess they're super-evolved alternate universe Earthlings who don't need to do that. Hey, I've never seen Volkor do anything that makes him overtly heterosexual (like oggle a lady, flirt with a woman, have sex with a woman, talk about women). That must mean he's gay!

Lord Hurin
April 12th, 2010, 08:18 AM
Oh gee, more strawmanning. Who would've guessed? You didn't just speculate, you stated it like it was a fact: "He isn't in line with the one objective everyone else has: getting home.". Not a trace of uncertainty or any indication of that you're merely speculating.

We've never seen anyone on the ship successfully do anything that helps the expedition to find their way back home. Does that mean that they are all actively working against finding a way back home? I mean, we haven't seen it. We also haven't seen them go to the bathroom. I guess they're super-evolved alternate universe Earthlings who don't need to do that. Hey, I've never seen Volkor do anything that makes him overtly heterosexual (like oggle a lady, flirt with a woman, have sex with a woman, talk about women). That must mean he's gay!

I was pretty sure it was written into the story that Rush cares only for Destiny for one reason or another and has nothing to go back home to. Anyway, if I'm wrong then tell me so. Don't condescend me and talk down to me like I'm a bloody 4 year-old. I can deal with being wrong, but having you be a pratt about it doesn't help OR solidify your position. It just makes you seem like a jerk.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 08:21 AM
I was pretty sure it was written into the story that Rush cares only for Destiny for one reason or another and has nothing to go back home to. Anyway, if I'm wrong then tell me so.
It's been speculated by other characters that Rush only cares for the Destiny and that he has nothing to go back to. It is no way been confirmed as a fact!


Don't condescend me and talk down to me like I'm a bloody 4 year-old. I can deal with being wrong, but having you be a pratt about it doesn't help OR solidify your position. It just makes you seem like a jerk.
The thing is that you never actually admit to being wrong when I defeat you in debate. You simply change your argument or ignore the fact that I just picked your argument(s) apart.

natyanayaki
April 12th, 2010, 06:24 PM
But if Wray takes over and installs herself as the new leader it would be the same situation in reverse. She doesn't seem to like the military personnel too much.

I take it that's fine with you, though.

But I'd be surprised if Wray actually wants sole power. I don't think that's the case, I think she wants Young out, or at least wants to challenge Young's arrogance, but I think she realized in Justice that she's not comfortable with being the person in charge. She wants a say, she wants to be heard, but she doesn't want to be the only voice, the way Young prefers it when he is in charge and I don't blame him for that. Young is a military man, as such he is familiar with the way thing are run in the military. His methods were OK at first, but they aren't the best courses of action for the long-run. And for the for-seeable future, the Destiny is it's own entity. It is it's own nation, it's on colony, territory, whatever. It it rooted in the Western/American culture, but it is on it's own.



2. I'll have to re-view the first episode. I thought that Young was the head of Icarus and the presumptive leader of the expedition until he backed out to save his marraige.


I think you're right, but I think the difference is, is that this is no longer just a temporary expedition, it's more permanent that anyone thought it would be, and unless I'm wrong, most people aboard the Destiny were not even meant for the expedition. They need a more long-term resolution, and unless a compromise can be met by the three leaders of the separate factions, they'll continue to bicker, despite the fact that there are far more desperate things to consider.


I still believe that an eye needs to be kept on Rush. He isn't in line with the one objective everyone else has: getting home.

Well we don't know that he doesn't want to get home, or at least that he doesn't want to get the others home.

But their primary goal is survival, and I do believe Rush wants to survive at least long enough to unlock the mysteries of the ship/ascension. At this point they don't have much chance of surviving long without Rush. And they either need a miracle/luck, or time, before they have a serious chance of getting home.

nx01a
April 12th, 2010, 06:53 PM
Well, I don't live in the US and I'm not going to touch on 'your' way of life... :D

I'll take your question as being in the context of Destiny. No matter who's in charge, nothing will ever be like it is 'at home'. Having said that, the military personnel might take this far better since they have training for dangerous situations and long deployments abroad. The civilians are just frelled.