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Wayston
April 10th, 2010, 05:04 AM
I didn't really get TJ ordering the soldier to put his gun down when they were stuck on the wrong side of the line. Seems to me like the one with the gun was in a much better position to end the coup before it got well under way. What were the civies going to do? Rush him until he ran out of bullets? I think not!

They should have at least tried to find out what their status was (eg if there were any more soldiers on the wrong side of the line) before putting the gun down. They weren't exactly faced with a life threatening situation when they did.

(I hope the thread title is not a problem spoiler wise)

Womble
April 10th, 2010, 05:48 AM
It was a deadlock situation, and TJ being the nice gal she is, she didn't want anyone hurt. What she did was against any conceivable army rules, but their situation was unorthodox enough. I think she would've had at least a chance of acquittal were she put on trial in an army court.

What raised my eyebrow is that the soldier actually put the gun down rather than holster it, or at least disassemble it and toss the firing pin somewhere inaccessible. He basically handed the "rebels" a weapon that was loaded and ready to fire. That's textbook escalation. It's just not done, just like in a hostage situation it is acceptable to give the hostage taker food, money, etc. but never a weapon or ammunition, or additional hostages, because that would increase his power.

GateroomGuard
April 10th, 2010, 05:49 AM
Yeah I thought it was a bad idea to. Simply telling him to stand down and keeping the gun would be better, but TJ just ended up giving the mutineers a weapon.

Still they were in a no win situation. TJ and that one soldier couldn't have fought off all the civillians and if they did it would cause to much bad blood for the military and civvies ever to work together again.

But giving gun to mutineers always=BAD.

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 06:18 AM
TJ wouldn't let anyone shoot anyone, voluntarily or order it. Certainly not in this situation. It's just who she is.

And I agree, it was kinda weird to just give them a gun. I wondered about that, too. However, it's a detail for a TV show. SGU has been pretty good on keeping these little details/things straight, it was inevitable for them to mess up sometime. :)

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 06:21 AM
One marine with a handgun at close range surrounded by several people, he opens fire it'll be tears all round. People that close can rush a person with a firearm, he might have shot a couple of people, end result though they'd be disarmed still. As for not dissembling the weapon, that would take a minute, something they didn't have when Wray and chums were standing right in front of the Marine and could take the weapon off him while he tried to fiddle around.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 06:24 AM
Where do they keep the guns on Destiny? Is there an armoury? I think there probably is, but which side of the "line" was it on? If the civilians had the remaining weapons anyway there wasn't a huge deal in letting them have one more. TJ didn't want to see anyone get hurt. Period. It's just not in her character.

hiro
April 10th, 2010, 06:26 AM
In the end TJ is the doctor (think that is a doctor before a soldier ) so if the soldier shoots she probably will have to save them . m0ar work = bad =D

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 06:30 AM
One marine with a handgun at close range surrounded by several people, he opens fire it'll be tears all round. People that close can rush a person with a firearm, he might have shot a couple of people, end result though they'd be disarmed still. As for not dissembling the weapon, that would take a minute, something they didn't have when Wray and chums were standing right in front of the Marine and could take the weapon off him while he tried to fiddle around.

So he couldn't lower the gun and disassemble it? Or maybe at least toss away the ammo? Or something? Seems strange to me. Even if the civilians could put it back together, it seems logical to me, to take out the ammo or something so that they can"t *immediately* shoot you. Or so it seems to me.

hiro
April 10th, 2010, 06:32 AM
mmm yeap ! you got tha point ... he could disassemble it ...

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 06:34 AM
So he couldn't lower the gun and disassemble it? Or maybe at least toss away the ammo? Or something? Seems strange to me. Even if the civilians could put it back together, it seems logical to me, to take out the ammo or something so that they can"t *immediately* shoot you. Or so it seems to me.

It be pretty pointless. They were clearly going to take the weapon off him. He could eject the magazine and toss it away, but they could just pick it back up. And you miss my point about dissembling a weapon, it is not just the case of pressing a button, for a trained soldier to dissemble a pistol it wouldn't take very long, but too long when there are several people in front of you who want to take the weapon off you.

Womble
April 10th, 2010, 06:53 AM
It be pretty pointless. They were clearly going to take the weapon off him. He could eject the magazine and toss it away, but they could just pick it back up. And you miss my point about dissembling a weapon, it is not just the case of pressing a button, for a trained soldier to dissemble a pistol it wouldn't take very long, but too long when there are several people in front of you who want to take the weapon off you.
He could have told him he would surrender the weapon after he can dispose of the firing pin. Until then, he could keep them at gunpoint, and order them to keep distance.

At the very least, he could shoot into a pile of pillows or a dirt-filled pot at the hydroponics lab (something that would absorb bullets safely) untl the clip is empty and THEN hand the gun over. But handing it over loaded just wasn't an option.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 06:57 AM
I think some people are also missing a key point: If the civilians just wanted to kill the military personnel, wouldn't they have? Giving a weapon to someone who isn't gonna use it isn't a great threat, imo.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 07:04 AM
He could have told him he would surrender the weapon after he can dispose of the firing pin. Until then, he could keep them at gunpoint, and order them to keep distance.

At the very least, he could shoot into a pile of pillows or a dirt-filled pot at the hydroponics lab (something that would absorb bullets safely) untl the clip is empty and THEN hand the gun over. But handing it over loaded just wasn't an option.

They weren't going to let him disable the weapon, they were right in front of him. You know the distance that someone can run in the time it takes to sight a weapon and get an accurate shot? About 6 or 7 meters. The civvies were much closer than that, TJ had told not to shoot anyone and even if he did it's likely he would have only shot one before the rest rushed him. Therefore with no bargaining position the Marine had no choice but to give up his sidearm. Now the best way to prevent a weapon from firing is to remove the firing pin, that is complex and fiddly to do. The only other option here would be to remove the magazine (not clip) but that would do bugger all. They can pick it up and load the weapon again.

hiro
April 10th, 2010, 07:09 AM
I think some people are also missing a key point: If the civilians just wanted to kill the military personnel, wouldn't they have? Giving a weapon to someone who isn't gonna use it isn't a great threat, imo.

the civilians don't want to kill the military personnel ? so they cut off his food and water because they thought it would be a nice diet ?

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 07:11 AM
the civilians don't want to kill the military personnel ? so they cut off his food and water because they thought it would be a nice diet ?

No, I disagree. They never got to the point where they deliberately refused to give food and water to the other side when they absolutely needed it. It's more forcing Young and the military's hand than wanting to kill them.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 10th, 2010, 07:12 AM
hiro,


the civilians don't want to kill the military personnel ? so they cut off his food and water because they thought it would be a nice diet ?

I agree the confrontation was premature. They should have tried a strike first. If the strike failed use their advanced technical knowledge to take over the ship and isolate military personel.

hiro
April 10th, 2010, 07:20 AM
No, I disagree. They never got to the point where they deliberately refused to give food and water to the other side when they absolutely needed it. It's more forcing Young and the military's hand than wanting to kill them.

True that's forcing but in a alien ship where everything can happen it's not a good idea to let military people like greed in a bad position, what doesn't make you think that if Rush has the total control will not shut down the life support system just in order to accelerate the process?

It seems to me that Young'll do everything for his crew except let rush take the total control of the Destiny.

I think that eli should shoot both and become the new general =D

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 07:20 AM
No, I disagree. They never got to the point where they deliberately refused to give food and water to the other side when they absolutely needed it. It's more forcing Young and the military's hand than wanting to kill them.

Got to my reply before I did. I was about to say almost the exact same thing. :P

Womble
April 10th, 2010, 07:21 AM
They weren't going to let him disable the weapon, they were right in front of him. You know the distance that someone can run in the time it takes to sight a weapon and get an accurate shot? About 6 or 7 meters. The civvies were much closer than that, TJ had told not to shoot anyone and even if he did it's likely he would have only shot one before the rest rushed him. Therefore with no bargaining position the Marine had no choice but to give up his sidearm. Now the best way to prevent a weapon from firing is to remove the firing pin, that is complex and fiddly to do. The only other option here would be to remove the magazine (not clip) but that would do bugger all. They can pick it up and load the weapon again.
There were three civilians, one of them a woman, all of them pretty scared to begin with. All they had the guts to do is block the soldiers' way. A single warning gunshot would have taken the fight out of them; it's intimidating as hell to people unaccustomed to being shot at, especially indoors. No way would they have charged him, certainly not while he was firing the gun until he was out of ammo.

Edit- At a distance of 3-4 meters, getting an accurate shot is pretty easy. It's missing your target that's tricky.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 07:22 AM
True that's forcing but in a alien ship where everything can happen it's not a good idea to let military people like greed in a bad position, what doesn't make you think that if Rush has the total control will not shut down the life support system just in order to accelerate the process?

It seems to me that Young'll do everything for his crew except let rush take the total control of the Destiny.


Firstly, the military people had control of the life support systems.

Secondly, it's pretty obvious that Rush doesn't want to get back to Eart. Destiny is his... err... destiny. Letting him have total control would possibly remove any chance of the rest of the crew getting home. So yeah, I'd agree with Young that it's a bad idea.

hiro
April 10th, 2010, 07:30 AM
Firstly, the military people had control of the life support systems.

Secondly, it's pretty obvious that Rush doesn't want to get back to Eart. Destiny is his... err... destiny. Letting him have total control would possibly remove any chance of the rest of the crew getting home. So yeah, I'd agree with Young that it's a bad idea.

I know that military people had control over the life support i'm just thinking in the chance that the transfer gone well. And of course i agree with the destiny thing .. but we can't blame Rush ... he most spent great part of his life trying to find the nine chevron and now is in a ancient ship
... it's simply amazing !

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 07:34 AM
There were three civilians, one of them a woman, all of them pretty scared to begin with. All they had the guts to do is block the soldiers' way. A single warning gunshot would have taken the fight out of them; it's intimidating as hell to people unaccustomed to being shot at, especially indoors. No way would they have charged him, certainly not while he was firing the gun until he was out of ammo.

Edit- At a distance of 3-4 meters, getting an accurate shot is pretty easy. It's missing your target that's tricky.
Firstly what does Wray being a women having anything to do with anything. Are you going on the sexist presupposition that women curl up in fright at the sight of guns or something? Secondly TJ had already ordered the Marine to lower his weapon and not shoot any of them so he wasn't in a good bargaining position. Finally even if shot the 3 civilians there, what good would it do? You can't take on 60 people in tight corridors with a single pistol with 15 rounds in. Especially as most of that would go into shooting the first 3 people.

Wayston
April 10th, 2010, 07:37 AM
the thing is that none of the civilians wanted to die, if you have say 60 people but none of them want to die then a person holding a gun with even one bullet wins

dealing with people is not simple mathematics!

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 07:39 AM
Yeah, but the person holding the gun doesn't want to die either. What would the civilians have done to him if he shot someone? I bet they'd have shot him, too.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 07:39 AM
the thing is that none of the civilians wanted to die, if you have say 60 people but none of them want to die then a person holding a gun with even one bullet wins

dealing with people is not simple mathematics!

Of course when you have a single pistol with a single magazine the threat of shooting someone is a very limited. You can shoot some people, the problem being of course you've promptly use up all your ammo and can't threaten anyone else.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 07:41 AM
the thing is that none of the civilians wanted to die, if you have say 60 people but none of them want to die then a person holding a gun with even one bullet wins

dealing with people is not simple mathematics!

I think the civilians had already demonstrated the fact that they were willing to play hardball. In a ship with so many corridors and rooms, it would only take a couple of the bigger scientists hiding around a corner and ambushing the LONE soldier to take out that threat. Then all hell would've broken loose once the rest of the military personnel came back.

jelgate
April 10th, 2010, 08:52 AM
Because thier is no way they could retake the ship with one pistol

Replicator Todd
April 10th, 2010, 09:00 AM
Its why I like TJ, she doesn't like shooting people unlike some members of the crew...

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 09:07 AM
Its why I like TJ, she doesn't like shooting people unlike some members of the crew...

No one got shot though in the ep. The only person who has been shot thus far in the series was Franklin who was about to maroon a bunch of them on a desert planet. And Greer could have easily just said stuff it and shot him lethally to make sure he went down but he didn't. Greer is often very restrained with his use of force, when he burst into the mess he had an unchambered weapon, only cocking it when Volker wouldn't get down.

Replicator Todd
April 10th, 2010, 09:13 AM
No one got shot though in the ep. The only person who has been shot thus far in the series was Franklin who was about to maroon a bunch of them on a desert planet. And Greer could have easily just said stuff it and shot him lethally to make sure he went down but he didn't. Greer is often very restrained with his use of force, when he burst into the mess he had an unchambered weapon, only cocking it when Volker wouldn't get down.

Oh, I didn't mean it literally. But compared to the rest of the military, TJ has a very civilian mindset compared to the rest of the military. TJ isn't one for violence.

thekillman
April 10th, 2010, 09:43 AM
TJ knew Young would come with a rescue mission. a vital part of it, was, infact the civvies believing that they were winning.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 09:50 AM
Oh, I didn't mean it literally. But compared to the rest of the military, TJ has a very civilian mindset compared to the rest of the military. TJ isn't one for violence.

What would you know about the military mindset?

TJ's actions and mindset were not unusual in any way. It's good military thinking when you have a single pistol with 15 rounds not to try and take on 60 people. When a bunch of them tell you to put the weapon down, better to do so than risk the mob if you end up killing two or three for no good result.

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 10:04 AM
What would you know about the military mindset?

TJ's actions and mindset were not unusual in any way. It's good military thinking when you have a single pistol with 15 rounds not to try and take on 60 people. When a bunch of them tell you to put the weapon down, better to do so than risk the mob if you end up killing two or three for no good result.

Especially when people like Park and Wray clearly show no sign of fear towards you. They seemed very much in control, 'cause they believed so.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 10:07 AM
Especially when people like Park and Wray clearly show no sign of fear towards you. They seemed very much in control, 'cause they believed so.

Yup clearly TJ made a decision, that based on the mood of the civilians, shooting several of them with a limited supply of ammo would not have the best consequences for herself and the Marine...

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 10:17 AM
Yup clearly TJ made a decision, that based on the mood of the civilians, shooting several of them with a limited supply of ammo would not have the best consequences for herself and the Marine...

Indeed. :) I like TJ, at least she seems to be a better leader than Young.

carmencatalina
April 10th, 2010, 10:20 AM
I thought TJ did a good job assessing the situation and coming up with a reasonable response - no good was going to come out of that situation unless the Marine put down the weapon. She is calm is rough situations - I keep thinking that we need more of her (and so much less of Young, Wray, and Rush - although I love them!).

thekillman
April 10th, 2010, 10:21 AM
no she's not. but she could be a very useful rational mind for when Young doesn't have one

Confessor Rahl
April 10th, 2010, 10:25 AM
That scene just just... awful. Really, really awful. He puts the gun down, gives it to his unarmed civilian enemies, as opposed to simply holstering the weapon. TJ telling him not to shoot makes sense, but him putting it down literally is absurd, no argument possible.

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 10:25 AM
no she's not. but she could be a very useful rational mind for when Young doesn't have one

She's not a better leader than Young? Why?

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 10:26 AM
That scene just just... awful. Really, really awful. He puts the gun down, gives it to his unarmed civilian enemies, as opposed to simply holstering the weapon. TJ telling him not to shoot makes sense, but him putting it down literally is absurd, no argument possible.

So he holsters it? Then what? You don't think, they'd have let him keep it, do you?

kymeric
April 10th, 2010, 10:44 AM
They cant really afford to loose any bodies they have either. I mean they are just teetering above a sustainable breeding population as it is right now. Unless you want the next couple of generations to die of cancer by 30 theres gonna be some specific 3 some or 4 some breeding pairs.

Confessor Rahl
April 10th, 2010, 11:20 AM
So he holsters it? Then what? You don't think, they'd have let him keep it, do you?

Why not? They wouldn't have been able to take it from him without risking someone being shot. I think that if she showed that he was not going to shoot them and cooperate, they would not have pursued trying to take the gun. It would not have been worth it. On the other hand that is just speculation on my part. As people have previously mentioned, he could have pocketed the ammo and relinquished the weapon. That way neither of them would be able to use it. The way it did go down was highly implausible. I can't see anyone with a sound mind denying that.

hiro
April 10th, 2010, 11:28 AM
She's not a better leader than Young? Why?

You put TJ in a complicated situation and ... well ... she's a medic a young one ! she can handle some situations but he has no experience in the battlefield ...


So he holsters it? Then what? You don't think, they'd have let him keep it, do you?

give a weapon loaded to a terrified civilian isn't the best option ... he should keep it .. it's a marine and i believe that he's trained to stand against difficult situations.

Detox
April 10th, 2010, 11:52 AM
You realize that if he pockets the ammo, they could just take it OUT of his pockets right? There was no choice in that situation BUT for him to hand over the sidearm.

Plus, they weren't going to let a marine walk around with a weapon when they're mutineering AGAINST the military.

hiro
April 10th, 2010, 12:02 PM
yeap but as someone said before he could disassemble it or negotiate this ( like : if you don't let me dissemble it i shoot you !!!)

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 10th, 2010, 12:15 PM
I think they need some sort of share leadership with the exception of combat situations. Even there there should be some consultation. Rush was absolutely right about the shield versus fireing back. Space showed Destiny is no match, weapon for weapon, compaired to one alien ship. Much less three. They'd have been chewed up alive if they'd tried to go head to head. The shield was the only viable option.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 12:38 PM
yeap but as someone said before he could disassemble it or negotiate this ( like : if you don't let me dissemble it i shoot you !!!)
Small problem with that. He starts dissembling the weapon, takes the slide off, so now he can't fire the weapon, but Wray and her friends can easily take the weapon off him and put the slide back on, bingo working weapon, pointless waste of time on the Marines part.

Why not? They wouldn't have been able to take it from him without risking someone being shot. I think that if she showed that he was not going to shoot them and cooperate, they would not have pursued trying to take the gun. It would not have been worth it. On the other hand that is just speculation on my part. As people have previously mentioned, he could have pocketed the ammo and relinquished the weapon. That way neither of them would be able to use it. The way it did go down was highly implausible. I can't see anyone with a sound mind denying that.
OK so it's pretty clear you know nothing about firearms or shooting them. As I've said before on this thread, in the time it takes to upholster aim and fire a weapon, someone can run 6 or 7 meters. Wray was standing right in front of the Marine, she and her cohorts could have easily taken the weapon off the Marine or got him at least in a position where he can't use the weapon. And if he pockets the ammo someone can take it off him. The way it went down was highly plausible and I'm very sound of mind thank you very much and I actually know something about firearms.

Blackhole
April 10th, 2010, 12:53 PM
Indeed. :) I like TJ, at least she seems to be a better leader than Young.

I agree. I think of all the officers she has demonstrated the best leadership skills.

Blackhole
April 10th, 2010, 01:01 PM
TJ made a command decision that causing loss of life would be worse than giving them a weapon. She surmised rightly in my opinion that killing someone would cross a line that the crew may never recover from. A permanent rift between the civilians and the military would be catastrophic for the Destiny. As it is they are all barely hanging on.

wargrafix
April 10th, 2010, 01:09 PM
He is waving a gun..in a spaceship. TJ did the right thing.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 01:13 PM
He is waving a gun..in a spaceship. TJ did the right thing.

Ah yes, with Destiny's paper-thin walls a single bullet could have destroyed the entire ship... :rolleyes:

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 01:17 PM
Ah yes, with Destiny's paper-thin walls a single bullet could have destroyed the entire ship... :rolleyes:

You've clearly never heard of ricochets.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 01:24 PM
You've clearly never heard of ricochets.

Ah, good point. My bad, I thought the other poster was suggesting a de-pressurization scenario.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 01:30 PM
Ah, good point. My bad, I thought the other poster was suggesting a de-pressurization scenario.

Actually looking at their post I see what you mean, they do seem to be suggesting some kind of depressurization scenario. Not very likely :D

However with those metal corridors I would not want someone firing a weapon wildly, metal corridors would lead to ricochets everywhere.

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 02:49 PM
Why not? They wouldn't have been able to take it from him without risking someone being shot. Same issues as before. Just go a couple of post back.
I think that if she showed that he was not going to shoot them and cooperate, they would not have pursued trying to take the gun. It would not have been worth it. On the other hand that is just speculation on my part. As people have previously mentioned, he could have pocketed the ammo and relinquished the weapon. That way neither of them would be able to use it. The way it did go down was highly implausible. I can't see anyone with a sound mind denying that.

Actually, M6P was ahead of me in replying, so this would also have been my reply:


Small problem with that. He starts dissembling the weapon, takes the slide off, so now he can't fire the weapon, but Wray and her friends can easily take the weapon off him and put the slide back on, bingo working weapon, pointless waste of time on the Marines part.

OK so it's pretty clear you know nothing about firearms or shooting them. As I've said before on this thread, in the time it takes to upholster aim and fire a weapon, someone can run 6 or 7 meters. Wray was standing right in front of the Marine, she and her cohorts could have easily taken the weapon off the Marine or got him at least in a position where he can't use the weapon. And if he pockets the ammo someone can take it off him. The way it went down was highly plausible and I'm very sound of mind thank you very much and I actually know something about firearms.

Anyways moving on, we've been over this.


You put TJ in a complicated situation and ... well ... she's a medic a young one ! she can handle some situations but he has no experience in the battlefield ...

I disagree, from what we've seen so far TJ can make very decent decision and can be a very good leader in complicated situations. I am of course referring to water. She might be young and inexperienced as you are suggesting, but Young, old and experienced as he is, is doing a far worse job. So experience doesn't mean anything apparently? anyway, I just said she would do better than Young, not that she be the best or a perfect choice. :) I disagree however on the assumption that TJ is so inexperienced. She isn't that young anymore and she seems too good a leader and too good at dealing with people, also in complicated situations, to have little experience.



give a weapon loaded to a terrified civilian isn't the best option ... he should keep it .. it's a marine and i believe that he's trained to stand against difficult situations.

I agree, its not a good option, but we have been trying to figure out how he could have prevented them ending up with it and we haven't found a plausible way. You can say "he should have kept it", but you can be pretty sure the civilians would have tried to take it away from him, and then we're back to whole issue of would he hurt/shoot them? That would go nowhere... So, what you're saying might be right, it's not the best option, but there weren't many other valuable options.



TJ made a command decision that causing loss of life would be worse than giving them a weapon. She surmised rightly in my opinion that killing someone would cross a line that the crew may never recover from. A permanent rift between the civilians and the military would be catastrophic for the Destiny. As it is they are all barely hanging on.

I agree. And you summarized it very good. Normally I'd green you without further comment, but enjoy the virtually shoulder pat this time. :)

eliteaceman
April 10th, 2010, 03:24 PM
Clearly there was no doubt in TJ's mind that Young would take back the ship....

She just basically shrugged it off "were not gonna shoot anybody" in a sarcastic tone....

Then again when Chloe came in "yea cause Young is gonna take back the ship."

She put the whole thing off as a joke.....


But anywho....

The 2 soldiers could of easily taken back the ship... military training... hand to hand combat.... civies never had a chance..

but the episode would of been alot shorter lol

Infinite-Possibilities
April 10th, 2010, 03:32 PM
Yeah I didn't like that scene. I thought it was a little ridiculous. They have the leaders of the "coup" right in front of them and they have a weapon and the civilians don't. Couldn't hey have ended it before it got that far. They wouldn't even have to kill anyone. If they thought that the civilians weren't going to be intimidated by guns, then how did more marines with more guns do it? TJ ordering him not to shoot was fine. No problem at all. But giving the gun to them just struck me as stupid. If he keeps the gun, what were they going to do about it? Force him to give it to them? How?

And moreover, even if the gun doesn't factor into the confrontation at all, the simple fact that occurred to me is that, er, couldn't TJ and that guy with her just beat everyone else in that room up? I mean they are trained soldiers.

Avenger
April 10th, 2010, 04:20 PM
TJ and the unnamed Airman would have been severely outnumbered, even if they manged to take Wray and Rush. It was a no win situation, so TJ decided to sit tight and wait for Young to take the ship back.

Given that TJ and the Airman were detained and locked up, it's more than safe to say he wouldn't have been allowed to keep the sidearm, even if he holstered it.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 04:33 PM
Yeah I didn't like that scene. I thought it was a little ridiculous. They have the leaders of the "coup" right in front of them and they have a weapon and the civilians don't. Couldn't hey have ended it before it got that far. They wouldn't even have to kill anyone. If they thought that the civilians weren't going to be intimidated by guns, then how did more marines with more guns do it? TJ ordering him not to shoot was fine. No problem at all. But giving the gun to them just struck me as stupid. If he keeps the gun, what were they going to do about it? Force him to give it to them? How?

And moreover, even if the gun doesn't factor into the confrontation at all, the simple fact that occurred to me is that, er, couldn't TJ and that guy with her just beat everyone else in that room up? I mean they are trained soldiers.

2 Military personnel, one pistol, 15 rounds of ammo not that scary. Lots of military personnel, automatic weapons, lots of ammo, very scary. It's fairly simple.

As for why they didn't beat the civvies up, what you think the military makes people into kung fu masters? Most military combat training is centred around weapons, and what training they would have had will not be that much good against 60 people.

lordofseas
April 10th, 2010, 04:35 PM
Oh good God, we're analyzing this? Sheesh.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 04:39 PM
Oh good God, we're analyzing this? Sheesh.

It's Gateworld, get with the program :D

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 04:41 PM
TJ and the unnamed Airman would have been severely outnumbered, even if they manged to take Wray and Rush. It was a no win situation, so TJ decided to sit tight and wait for Young to take the ship back.

Given that TJ and the Airman were detained and locked up, it's more than safe to say he wouldn't have been allowed to keep the sidearm, even if he holstered it.

Actually his name is Dunning. :) He's not unnamed. :D ;) ;) ;)


Oh good God, we're analyzing this? Sheesh.

LOS, please, this is GateWorld. Crazy, crazy, over-obsessed GW. Every frame of every episode, trailer, Kino, promo will be analyzed, taken apart and discussed hundred times over. That's what makes us and this place so crazy awesome. :D

;) ;) ;) ;)

Infinite-Possibilities
April 10th, 2010, 04:41 PM
So? That's potentially 15 people killed including everyone in that room. Are you saying that wasn't a big deal to them?

I'm not saying that I believe TJ is a martial artist, but still in any physical confrontation between TJ and a "what's his face" against Wray and 5 unimposing scientists, I'd have to give any andvantage to the individuals with more than 0 combat training of any kind. Obviously they couldn't restrain the entire lot of them on the ship but one of the leaders is right in front of them AND they've got a gun. Who's going to try to take it from him? Are there 16 guys hanging around willing to possibly take a bullet to disarm him ?

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 04:43 PM
It's Gateworld, get with the program :D

Hello, this is GateWorld Anonymous, and I am Jasper and I have a problem.

Hi Jasper.

I am addicted to the crazyness of GateWorld.

Yeah, I need a program. :D :S

;)

Lost
April 10th, 2010, 05:06 PM
All of these women of "power" is a little off putting and unrealistic. I'm not saying that there is anythig wrong with powerful women. It just seems a little over the top and forced.

It's easier to believe in aliens than social order on this show.

Avenger
April 10th, 2010, 05:16 PM
What? TJ is an officer and therefore is Dunning's superior.

The Shrike
April 10th, 2010, 05:20 PM
Tj proved once again why she should be the one in charge.

Blackhole
April 10th, 2010, 05:55 PM
Tj proved once again why she should be the one in charge.

I agree in Water she demonstrated that she would make a very effective leader. Imo of all the crew she would make the best choice.

Coronach
April 10th, 2010, 06:02 PM
I agree in Water she demonstrated that she would make a very effective leader. Imo of all the crew she would make the best choice.

I have to say, there's not really anything about TJ that I think would make her a bad leader. Hell, of the three current choices I'd say she's probably better than all of them.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 06:17 PM
I have to say, there's not really anything about TJ that I think would make her a bad leader. Hell, of the three current choices I'd say she's probably better than all of them.

The only downside I can think of is that she'd have to split her time between leading and being the de facto chief medical officer. Could be a tight schedule, but less so if she starts training a couple of nurses.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 07:02 PM
So? That's potentially 15 people killed including everyone in that room. Are you saying that wasn't a big deal to them?

I'm not saying that I believe TJ is a martial artist, but still in any physical confrontation between TJ and a "what's his face" against Wray and 5 unimposing scientists, I'd have to give any andvantage to the individuals with more than 0 combat training of any kind. Obviously they couldn't restrain the entire lot of them on the ship but one of the leaders is right in front of them AND they've got a gun. Who's going to try to take it from him? Are there 16 guys hanging around willing to possibly take a bullet to disarm him ?


With 15 rounds of 9mm you probably could get 3 at best. Apart from the fact that people will miss, you'll need multiple rounds of 9mm to put people down. On top of that in the situation TJ and the Marine was in he'd probably get one, Wray who was standing in front of him, the others would have got him before he'd had time to sight the weapon on them. I the time it takes to position oneself and aim at a target with a pistol a person can have moved 6 or 7 meters.


All of these women of "power" is a little off putting and unrealistic. I'm not saying that there is anythig wrong with powerful women. It just seems a little over the top and forced.

It's easier to believe in aliens than social order on this show.
Err what? There are plenty of women in the military and there are plenty of women in politics and bureaucracy. No offense but where the heck do you live, Saudi Arabia?

lordofseas
April 10th, 2010, 07:59 PM
It's Gateworld, get with the program :D

:lol:


Actually his name is Dunning. :) He's not unnamed. :D ;) ;) ;)



LOS, please, this is GateWorld. Crazy, crazy, over-obsessed GW. Every frame of every episode, trailer, Kino, promo will be analyzed, taken apart and discussed hundred times over. That's what makes us and this place so crazy awesome. :D

;) ;) ;) ;)

We shall beat the snot out of each episode! :D

An-Alteran
April 10th, 2010, 10:16 PM
Ok, if I were TJ, I would have ordered Camille to stand down. At gun point.
If she didn't, I may have even shot her. It was mutiny. They were a threat.
Treason and mutiny have the death penalty.

If I was that soldier guy, I would have simply holstered the weapon.

But these civvies were wimps, he could have taken them out in hand-to-hand combat easily enough to begin with.

The whole thing was just wrong.


With 15 rounds of 9mm you probably could get 3 at best. Apart from the fact that people will miss, you'll need multiple rounds of 9mm to put people down. On top of that in the situation TJ and the Marine was in he'd probably get one, Wray who was standing in front of him, the others would have got him before he'd had time to sight the weapon on them. I the time it takes to position oneself and aim at a target with a pistol a person can have moved 6 or 7 meters.
What on earth are you talking about?

One bullet from that pistol would have dropped any of those scientists.
They were wimps to begin with.

Even if they were not, you don't need 15 rounds to kill 3 people.
Especially since he was a trained soldier.

I could have easily shot each of them at that range with a pistol. It would not have taken 15 rounds either.
5-9, maybe, if I kept my cool.

Even if they got to him, he was a trained soldier.
He could have dealt with them easily.

You are also assuming all humans would rush a guy pointing a gun straight at you.
That just isn't true.

Jper
April 11th, 2010, 02:08 AM
Ok, if I were TJ, I would have ordered Camille to stand down. At gun point.
If she didn't, I may have even shot her. It was mutiny. They were a threat.
Treason and mutiny have the death penalty.

Come one, TJ isn't good to shot Camille. After that she would be the one to take care of her. Not to mention TJ needs to live with those people from day to day. That is just not TJ. TJ is not the one for using violence like that. If he would even have the chance. I bet if that airman had shot anyone, he'd be dead right now.



If I was that soldier guy, I would have simply holstered the weapon.

After which they'd just have taken the gun from you.



But these civvies were wimps, he could have taken them out in hand-to-hand combat easily enough to begin with.

Airman Dunning, is just an airman, one airman at that, there's no way he could have gotten the overhand on all of them.

Besides, this is all BS. Violence and shooting people isn't the solution. TJ showed some sound judgement instead of only aggravating the situation. You make the civilians stand out as **the** big bad new enemy, but just moments before they were people that airman shared his life with from day to day, and now he has to live with them again. Shooting your own people just isn't that easy, certainly not on a piece of metal junk billions of light years away from home, where the 88 people on that ship are the only thing not alien for light years around you.

Wayston
April 11th, 2010, 02:29 AM
in the final moments of the standoff the soldier is standing with nobody in his rear while holding wray in his sights at almost point blank range

they weren't going to bumrush him, precisely because they knew if they did then several people would be killed... these people had no intention of dying for their cause so they wouldn't do anything risking such an outcome... I mean the two scientists were almost soiling their pants when they noticed TJ was on the wrong side of the line

I'm not saying the soldier should have shot anyone, just that by not giving up the gun he might not have had to shoot anyone (well maybe some people in the leg to make his point) he could have marched them all straight to detention because they didn't want to die, in my opinion the last thing these mutineers would do in such a situation is play meatshields for the cause! The threat of violence could have sufficed

also who can say for sure he only had one clip?

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 11th, 2010, 03:50 AM
What on earth are you talking about?

One bullet from that pistol would have dropped any of those scientists.
They were wimps to begin with.

Even if they were not, you don't need 15 rounds to kill 3 people.
Especially since he was a trained soldier.

I could have easily shot each of them at that range with a pistol. It would not have taken 15 rounds either.
5-9, maybe, if I kept my cool.

Even if they got to him, he was a trained soldier.
He could have dealt with them easily.

You are also assuming all humans would rush a guy pointing a gun straight at you.
That just isn't true.

Scuse be but what are you talking about? Without wanting to get arsey and elitist and I have some knowledge about what I'm talking about. I'm not some super duper special forces type who knows everything about the ins and outs of close combat, but I have had some pistol training while serving. A 9mm round will not put a person down, and just because you happen to label them wimps doesn't mean they will go down, hyped up on adrenaline people will take multiple rounds, the civilians will have a lot of adrenaline in their system, having just enacted their mutiny, they've gone up against the military, one person getting shot wouldn't stop them, indeed if it came to a mle in the corridor I don't think a single 9mm round would stop a charging angry scientist in anyway.

Some groups train with what is called Mozambique or failure drill, this involves firing two shots to the chest, but then having to fire a further shot to the head to ensure a kill. This is under optimum conditions, so that's at least 9 rounds gone, not taking into account misses. Being an airman though he will have been trained to fire centre of mass on target, that will take a lot more rounds. In a confused fight in a confined space ship corridor, it would probably take more. Airman Dunning probably could have shot all 3 people in front of him, but it would be a close run, nasty thing, and he'd more than likely use most, if not all of his ammo and then face the 57 or so other angry scientists who want their blood for shooting 3 of their friends.

The Shrike
April 11th, 2010, 04:06 AM
Actually his name is Dunning. :) He's not unnamed. :D ;) ;) ;)He was with TJ, how could he not be.

pipi
April 11th, 2010, 04:29 AM
It just occured to me that TJ and that airman trapped on the wrong side were just in the Air Force not Marines or anything GIJoeish. So I wouldn't expect them to do a Rambo. Bunch of panzies, too passive.

Lahela
April 11th, 2010, 05:23 AM
Oops, missed a bit so have edited to delete...

Phenom
April 11th, 2010, 05:40 AM
I bloody loved this episode. Absolutely fantastic, however the one small thing that got on my nerves was this scene. It was such a crucial tactical moment that was just glossed over into a non event. I was actually a little angry that the soldier didn't just kick Wray in the guts, pistol whip her and tell the rest of the pansy scientists that the coup ends now or things get worse. I don't know if I am worried that I had that instant reaction but I think thats how I (with a little army training behind me and other similar type training) would have handled it for my team. Simply target the leader Wray and the others wouldn't put up a fight, they are not that type.

But I think thats why I loved the ep so much...it brought out a lot of emotion and anger towards the characters.

Jper
April 11th, 2010, 05:43 AM
Why does everyone seem to think that violence and force is the solution? Am I the only one then who thinks TJ made a wise and the best decision as a leader at that time? And I am then the only one who believes that it's not in TJ's nature?

The Shrike
April 11th, 2010, 05:50 AM
....Simply target the leader Wray and the others wouldn't put up a fight, they are not that type...Not immediately, or even in a direct physical manner, but remember these people aren't ordinary citizens, they are highly qualified scientists who given enough time could come up with incredibly creative ways to dispatch the military types on board. Given that knowledge, TJ made a wise decision.

Phenom
April 11th, 2010, 06:10 AM
Not immediately, or even in a direct physical manner, but remember these people aren't ordinary citizens, they are highly qualified scientists who given enough time could come up with incredibly creative ways to dispatch the military types on board. Given that knowledge, TJ made a wise decision.

Can't agree with that one. It was simply very lucky they came up with the way to take back the ship. It was an extremely poor choice to lose that advantage so easily and to be honest, I doubt the military would fear a few biologists, chemists and a physicist or 2. Those types are easily controlled and are not the ones who try to be the hero, and certainly not against a bunch of armed military who are physically far superior.

And remember, Eli is in Young's pocket and he is much more valuable and creative than any of the civvie scientists (Bar Rush obviously).


Why does everyone seem to think that violence and force is the solution? Am I the only one then who thinks TJ made a wise and the best decision as a leader at that time? And I am then the only one who believes that it's not in TJ's nature?

Do you not think that threatening a person's life support systems is a violent or forceful act?

TJ had no way of knowing that they were going to ..

crawl through a hole in the roof

The Shrike
April 11th, 2010, 06:28 AM
Can't agree with that one. It was simply very lucky they came up with the way to take back the ship. It was an extremely poor choice to lose that advantage so easily and to be honest, I doubt the military would fear a few biologists, chemists and a physicist or 2. Those types are easily controlled and are not the ones who try to be the hero, and certainly not against a bunch of armed military who are physically far superior...If they were crawling around in the jungle in Vietnam I'd agree, but in this case they are onboard a technological nightmare for those who aren't capable of understanding it. The military is completely dependent on the scientists to keep them alive, and nowhere near respectful enough given that situation. One way or another, Young will have no choice but to cooperate with the civilians, if for no other reason than the safety of his troops. Quid pro quo.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 11th, 2010, 06:58 AM
Why does everyone seem to think that violence and force is the solution? Am I the only one then who thinks TJ made a wise and the best decision as a leader at that time? And I am then the only one who believes that it's not in TJ's nature?

Well I support you. TJ made a good decision, realising that using excessive force would be counterproductive. They have to live and work with these people, shooting 3 of them will not help relations. The rest of the military went a similar way, using a minimum amount of force, realising brutally suppressing the mutiny would just lead to greater problems. The military took back the ship with no injuries or deaths, and when Greer stormed into the mess he had an unchambered weapon, they did everything possible to make sure there was a minimum of violence, something that was a sound military decision.

Lahela
April 11th, 2010, 06:58 AM
Why does everyone seem to think that violence and force is the solution? Am I the only one then who thinks TJ made a wise and the best decision as a leader at that time? And I am then the only one who believes that it's not in TJ's nature?

No, you're not alone.

Nindif
April 11th, 2010, 07:17 AM
i thought TJ was the most reasonable person throughout the whole ordeal. She was level headed and realistic about both sides (Military shouldn't use excessive force, civilians should accept they cannot enforce themselves on the highly trained military). you are most definitely not alone.

This was a standout episode for TJ and positioned her as a realistic authority figure/leader on board Destiny.

Zkyire
April 11th, 2010, 06:56 PM
the civilians don't want to kill the military personnel ? so they cut off his food and water because they thought it would be a nice diet ?

Did you watch the episode? They mentioned multiple times that they were hoping Young would see "reason" and capitulate. They were going to give the military personnel food, water, and free roam of the ship again, just so long as they relinquished command.

If any of the soldiers died of starvation or dehydration, it would have been because of Young's stubbornness.

pipi
April 11th, 2010, 08:43 PM
TJ definitely showed that she has officer qualities to make a decision. I was just trying to defend that little airman with the pistol. He acted so tough waving his gun at the three civies blocking his path only to put it down on the floor = gay. That's the part that got to me. I don't recall TJ saying hand the gun over... god...

asdf1239
April 11th, 2010, 10:50 PM
i dont think they could have overpowered a marine even if they all rushed at once.

it's pretty obvious that Rush doesn't want to get back to Eart. Destiny is his... err... destiny. Letting him have total control would possibly remove any chance of the rest of the crew getting home.
i think the trip is still too young though to determine if rush wants to go back or continue -permanently- away.

FallenAngelII
April 11th, 2010, 11:52 PM
The gun had, what 12 bullets at most? What were they gonna do, shoot their way to Rush and then force him to end the deadlock under threat of death? And then what? With up to 12 or more (if the bullets are piercing) civilians wounded or, worse, dead, you really think that would've made the civilians more co-operative? They'd be enraged and go on a strike or plot a new coup, this one armed.

hiro
April 12th, 2010, 12:41 AM
They'd be enraged and go on a strike or plot a new coup, this one armed.

I agree but i have to point , they had weapons!

thekillman
April 12th, 2010, 12:57 AM
oh yes, we'd have once civvie with a gun. 99.99% of the other guns are in hands of the soldiers. whacha think, that guy's gonna shoot when 3 G-36 rifles are aimed at him? nope.


it was the best decision, besides, she knew Young was capable of a rescue and she was proven right. obviously, it was the best choice. no way the civvs would've allowed him to holster the weapon.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 01:41 AM
I agree but i have to point , they had weapons!
We saw two weapons. That doesn't make the coup itself armed. It makes those two individuals armed.

Killfetzer
April 12th, 2010, 02:02 AM
Why does everyone seem to think that violence and force is the solution? Am I the only one then who thinks TJ made a wise and the best decision as a leader at that time? And I am then the only one who believes that it's not in TJ's nature?

I'm with you as well. Deescalation was the best choice for TJ at that moment.


Do you not think that threatening a person's life support systems is a violent or forceful act?

Young didn't use this. As Rush stated Young had to shut down the life support immedeatly so that the civilians die before the military dies. Young just stated that he could have used it.

pipi
April 12th, 2010, 02:20 AM
As Rush stated Young had to shut down the life support immedeatly so that the civilians die before the military dies. Young just stated that he could have used it.

That's probably based on the standard 3 day rule without water. But ah ha, Bear Grylls teaches you to drink your own pee, that should extend a couple of days. And usually in a confined space it's the CO2 that kills you first before you actually run out of air.

Phenom
April 12th, 2010, 02:55 AM
The gun had, what 12 bullets at most? What were they gonna do, shoot their way to Rush and then force him to end the deadlock under threat of death? And then what? With up to 12 or more (if the bullets are piercing) civilians wounded or, worse, dead, you really think that would've made the civilians more co-operative? They'd be enraged and go on a strike or plot a new coup, this one armed.

You wouldn't need to use the 12 bullets. The simple theory of 'my stick is bigger than your stick and you really don't want me to use my stick' is all that would have been required. I noted the term excessive force was used a bit earlier in the thread. Excessive force need not have been used at all in this scenario. The threat of the use of the gun is all that would be required, and that threat need not even be a direct threat. The sheer knowledge that yes I have the most powerful weapon in this room and if need be, it will be used, is enough to hold power in the room.

The issue with the Coup I have is that the civillians didn't actually have any power over the military, not with armed military on the civillian side. I do understand thought that it wasn't the plan to have that happen however.

I find it interesting that some are praising TJ for being 'level headed' etc in not wanting to use force. There is a time where being level headed and not using force in a hostile situation can be critical. It is also just as critical however where being too passive can result in the situation turning against you. Obviously this is a show with a scripted ending but in reality if someone in my profession was to give up their gun just because they were told too, with no reason to do so, then they would be chucked in the air lock with the rubbish.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 03:46 AM
You wouldn't need to use the 12 bullets. The simple theory of 'my stick is bigger than your stick and you really don't want me to use my stick' is all that would have been required. I noted the term excessive force was used a bit earlier in the thread. Excessive force need not have been used at all in this scenario. The threat of the use of the gun is all that would be required, and that threat need not even be a direct threat. The sheer knowledge that yes I have the most powerful weapon in this room and if need be, it will be used, is enough to hold power in the room.
The civilians knew that if he so shot a single one of them, the military would lose the war. They would no longer be able to justify their rule. "If you're against us, we kill you". They already tried it with Rush and now a grunt killed an (or more) unarmed civilian simply for being in his way.

pipi
April 12th, 2010, 04:20 AM
What's with all this shooting business. Waste of scarce munitions. Those civilians are overrated. He could have easily just judo chopped all three of them and open the door for the other guys to enter. Okay here's a breakdown of the stand off. And for the record not all civilians would be prepared for some fistycuffs, they'd just freeze, like a bystander on a street.

Scenario:
Airman with pistol vs 2 girls and 1 middle aged guy
enters TJ and 2 overweight scientist
enters Wray and 1 old guy

I'm strongly against violence against girls so the chances of the Airman never getting laid againt in his life on Destiny would be quite high, unfortunately... But anyway, social politics aside, if TJ and the airman wanted to end it quick here is what I'd envision.

Wray gives the death stare to the Airman.
Airman clocks her with the pistol (KO).
The two scientist freeze in shock and are useless.
Old guy tries to help Wray off the grown because he is kind hearted.
TJ makes a dash for the door by sidestepping the girls to the left.
All three of the civilians try to grab her.
Airman puts the saftey on and takes out the guy on the right from behind.
Scientiest are still standing there twiddling their thumbs.
Old guy is trying to use reason.
The two girls finally give up or they can continue their 3way wrestleton.
While Airman runs to the door and opens it. Or if he doesn't value his sex life, he can pistol whip the girls from behind too.


Anyway alll hypothetical, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but if those two wanted to do it, it's possible without firing 12 rounds and the whole shebang about taking on the entire civilians cause there's no need to.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 12th, 2010, 04:36 AM
What's with all this shooting business. Waste of scarce munitions. Those civilians are overrated. He could have easily just judo chopped all three of them and open the door for the other guys to enter. Okay here's a breakdown of the stand off. And for the record not all civilians would be prepared for some fistycuffs, they'd just freeze, like a bystander on a street.

Scenario:
Airman with pistol vs 2 girls and 1 middle aged guy
enters TJ and 2 overweight scientist
enters Wray and 1 old guy

I'm strongly against violence against girls so the chances of the Airman never getting laid againt in his life on Destiny would be quite high, unfortunately... But anyway, social politics aside, if TJ and the airman wanted to end it quick here is what I'd envision.

Wray gives the death stare to the Airman.
Airman clocks her with the pistol (KO).
The two scientist freeze in shock and are useless.
Old guy tries to help Wray off the grown because he is kind hearted.
TJ makes a dash for the door by sidestepping the girls to the left.
All three of the civilians try to grab her.
Airman puts the saftey on and takes out the guy on the right from behind.
Scientiest are still standing there twiddling their thumbs.
Old guy is trying to use reason.
The two girls finally give up or they can continue their 3way wrestleton.
While Airman runs to the door and opens it. Or if he doesn't value his sex life, he can pistol whip the girls from behind too.


Anyway alll hypothetical, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but if those two wanted to do it, it's possible without firing 12 rounds and the whole shebang about taking on the entire civilians cause there's no need to.

I'm sorry what? The airman could judo chop them all? Do you actually know anything about military training, the guy was an ordinary airman, not some Special Forces Guy, and hell even being that doesn't turn you into Jackie Chan. The civilians were staring down a guy with a gun, they weren't going to back down and if it came to a fistfight it was 3 against 2 with the civilians having reserves. Not a good situation.

hiro
April 12th, 2010, 07:03 AM
We saw two weapons. That doesn't make the coup itself armed. It makes those two individuals armed.

They had access to the gate room, i guess that somewhere near the gate room it has to be one improvised arsenal ...

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 08:01 AM
They had access to the gate room, i guess that somewhere near the gate room it has to be one improvised arsenal ...
But the coup itself was not armed! They did not march into the middle of the ship, guns a-blazing and threaten to shoot anyone who stood in their way! Heck, the vast majority of the civilians in on the coup weren't armed! We saw two guns! So it doesn't matter if there might have been guns at their disposal. The coup was not armed.

Jper
April 12th, 2010, 08:04 AM
But the coup itself was not armed! They did not march into the middle of the ship, guns a-blazing and threaten to shoot anyone who stood in their way! Heck, the vast majority of the civilians in on the coup weren't armed! We saw two guns! So it doesn't matter if there might have been guns at their disposal. The coup was not armed.

You keep insisting, or mentioning that you saw two guns, while there was only one gun in the possession of the civilians...

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 08:09 AM
You keep insisting, or mentioning that you saw two guns, while there was only one gun in the possession of the civilians...
Someone said that in the scene where Eli was exchanged for food and water, there were two guns visible. I just assumed they weren't lying since I'm too lazy to re-check.

One or two guns, it does not matter. My argument is that the civilians weren't armed en masse, that the coup itself wasn't armed. If the civilians had only one gun instead of two, that only serves to support my point further.

Jper
April 12th, 2010, 08:14 AM
Someone said that in the scene where Eli was exchanged for food and water, there were two guns visible. I just assumed they weren't lying since I'm too lazy to re-check.

One or two guns, it does not matter. My argument is that the civilians weren't armed en masse, that the coup itself wasn't armed. If the civilians had only one gun instead of two, that only serves to support my point further.

No there's only one gun. The gun they got from airman Dunning.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 08:19 AM
No there's only one gun. The gun they got from airman Dunning.
Then I will go back to arguing what I originally argued: There was only one gun. How in the flying fig can that constitute an "armed coup"?

Jper
April 12th, 2010, 08:22 AM
Then I will go back to arguing what I originally argued: There was only one gun. How in the flying fig can that constitute an "armed coup"?

Don't ask me. I don't understand all this crap about this incident. IMHO TJ did what she had to do, fitting with her character. :) I don't understand all this encouragement to use violence, and shoot the hell out of the civilians. And all that by one single armed airman. And I certainly don't understand the "kung fu" moves he should have performed... :S

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 08:24 AM
Don't ask me. I don't understand all this crap about this incident. IMHO TJ did what she had to do, fitting with her character. :) I don't understand all this encouragement to use violence, and shoot the hell out of the civilians. And all that by one single armed airman. And I certainly don't understand the "kung fu" moves he should have performed... :S
The way I see it, the forums are frequented by a whole bunch of people who are either in the military or who are fans of the military. In their eyes, the military can do no wrong and the civilians should be happy the military is there to protect them. As such, the civilians are whiny little ingrates for staging the coup since the military's done nothing but benign stuff for them. Therefore, it is perfectly OK to "karate chop" a few innocent civilians.

hiro
April 12th, 2010, 08:32 AM
Someone said that in the scene where Eli was exchanged for food and water, there were two guns visible. I just assumed they weren't lying since I'm too lazy to re-check.

Sorry , my fault ! I rewatch the scene and as Jeper said there's only one gun ... the other gun i saw it's actually a kino remote ( i think )

beafly
April 12th, 2010, 08:41 AM
Ok, this thread addresses my biggest beef with the episode.

This was the stupidest scene.

There is no way in hell that airman would have simply set his gun on the floor. There is no way in hell TJ would have ordered him to do so.

If she wanted to de-escalate the situation, she'd have ordered him to lower the weapon. No more.

You guys can argue about time to close, inevitable defeat, etc. but you're talking about un-trained people looking at the muzzle of a gun. While they could assume that a physical assault on the airman would be ultimately successful, SOMEONE is likely to be seriously hurt or even die in the process. The question is... do you want it to be you? Are you willing to die for the success of the mutiny?

TJ and that airman are holding some HUGE cards and are in the unique position to significantly improve Col Young's negotiating position. In my opinion they made a HUGE tactical error.

Lord Hurin
April 12th, 2010, 08:41 AM
The way I see it, the forums are frequently by a whole bunch of people who are either in the military or who are fans of the military. In their eyes, the military can do no wrong and the civilians should be happy the military is there to protect them. As such, the civilians are whiny little ingrates for staging the coup since the military's done nothing but benign stuff for them. Therefore, it is perfectly OK to "karate chop" a few innocent civilians.

Including me, I suppose? :P

For the record, I completely agree with TJ's decision. Things could only have gotten worse. I do, however, agree with the retaking of the ship. It put the civilians and military on equal footing in my mind. Neither of them could utterly, completely shut the other out. Without equal footing once negotiations come, one side is going to feel downtrodden.

beafly
April 12th, 2010, 08:47 AM
The way I see it, the forums are frequently by a whole bunch of people who are either in the military or who are fans of the military. In their eyes, the military can do no wrong and the civilians should be happy the military is there to protect them. As such, the civilians are whiny little ingrates for staging the coup since the military's done nothing but benign stuff for them. Therefore, it is perfectly OK to "karate chop" a few innocent civilians.

Respectfully. Those are not "innocent civilians." They are either gov't employees or contractors. They signed on for a highly classified MILITARY project. They most certainly agreed to the mission, though not likely the exact situation, and the US Air Force was leading the project from the start.

While they may not fall directly under the military's chain of command, they damn sure take orders from the military at their specific level of work and responsibility. The whole civilian in charge of the military thing happens at ONE place in the United States: The President. Not Joe scientist.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 08:53 AM
Respectfully. Those are not "innocent civilians." They are either gov't employees or contractors.
This makes them less of civilians how?


They signed on for a highly classified MILITARY project.
No it wasn't. Icarus Base was a project run by the IOA (a civilian organization) with the USAF as their guard.


They most certainly agreed to the mission, though not likely the exact situation, and the US Air Force was leading the project from the start.
They agreed to work on a base where Young was the military commander. They did not agree to have him be their dictator should they have to evacuate.


While they may not fall directly under the military's chain of command, they damn sure take orders from the military at their specific level of work and responsibility.
No they don't.

Daniel was a civilian as well. As such, Jack could not order him like he would order another USAF member around. If Daniel refused to follow Jack's orders, Jack could not have him prosecuted or dismissed for insubordination. There was no way to court marshal Daniel either.

It's the same thing here. While the military ran Icarus Base and the leader of the base as military, the civilians ultimately received their orders from the IOA, a very civilian organization.


The whole civilian in charge of the military thing happens at ONE place in the United States: The President. Not Joe scientist.
Yes, and? The fact of the matter is still that every military in the free world ultimately takes its orders from one or several civilians.

And Icarus Base was not a military operation.

Lord Hurin
April 12th, 2010, 09:01 AM
No it wasn't. Icarus Base was a project run by the IOA (a civilian organization) with the USAF as their guard.

Ah, I missed that. That takes away a lot of my presumptions about who should've taken command when they got to Destiny.



Daniel was a civilian as well. As such, Jack could not order him like he would order another USAF member around. If Daniel refused to follow Jack's orders, Jack could not have him prosecuted or dismissed for insubordination. There was no way to court marshal Daniel either.

This I'm unsure of. Remember McKay's first appearance in SG1? At the end, he was transferred to Russia against his will and Carter said something along the lines of "as long as the US Air Force is paying your bills, you'll do what they tell you to." Furthermore, I suspect Jack may have tolerated a lot of Daniel's "insubordination" because of his great respect for the good doctor.

beafly
April 12th, 2010, 09:03 AM
Who from the IOA was at Icarus, in charge of the operation?

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 09:04 AM
This I'm unsure of. Remember McKay's first appearance in SG1? At the end, he was transferred to Russia against his will and Carter said something along the lines of "as long as the US Air Force is paying your bills, you'll do what they tell you to." Furthermore, I suspect Jack may have tolerated a lot of Daniel's "insubordination" because of his great respect for the good doctor.
It was expressively stated early on in SG-1's run that Daniel did not have to follow Jack's orders. Heck, it might even have been in the movie was well.

And Sam specifically said "As long as the USAF is paying for your bills...", in other words, if Rodney wanted to keep getting good money from the USAF, he'd have to transfer to where they wanted him to transfer. He could just quit.

The same goes with Daniel. Daniel could be fired, but he couldn't be prosecuted for simply refusing to follow a military order.

Lord Hurin
April 12th, 2010, 09:08 AM
It was expressively stated early on in SG-1's run that Daniel did not have to follow Jack's orders. Heck, it might even have been in the movie was well.

And Sam specifically said "As long as the USAF is paying for your bills...", in other words, if Rodney wanted to keep getting good money from the USAF, he'd have to transfer to where they wanted him to transfer. He could just quit.

The same goes with Daniel. Daniel could be fired, but he couldn't be prosecuted for simply refusing to follow a military order.

Good points, all. I don't know whether the civilians on Destiny are paid by the IOA or the USAF. In the case of Rodney that I presented, I'm not sure if the IOA existed at that point.

As for Daniel, the fact that he was never fired I think is probably due to Jack and Hammond. They liked the guy, and Danny boy usually proved himself right anyway. :)

hedwig
April 12th, 2010, 09:16 AM
Who from the IOA was at Icarus, in charge of the operation?

Wasn't that Camille Wray? I'm a bit fuzzy on the earlier episodes, but if I'm remembering correctly, she was the only IOA person on Icarus.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 09:17 AM
Wasn't that Camille Wray? I'm a bit fuzzy on the earlier episodes, but if I'm remembering correctly, she was the only IOA person on Icarus.
I would assume it's Camille.

beafly
April 12th, 2010, 09:36 AM
Further along those lines, IOA funding of the mission does not necessarily mean they have the responsibility of execution or had anyone on site with any authority over the project.

The military staff still would not answer directly to Camille, . They may be directed to work in cooperation with her but their chain of command would be entirely Air Force up to the project office level. Which my guess is the SGC, Gen O'neil.

The IOA probably has the option to pull funding if the project (useless gesture in the case of Destiny) was not being executed to their satisfaction but not to tell a Colonel or Lieutenant in the Air Force what to do or how to execute their mission.

Camille could likely file a report on the military staff to her superiors. Which under normal circumstances might result in a reprimand, discipline, transfer, etc.

IF (big if, because it's doubtful) the IOA held the contracts the scientists were using and not the Air Force. She could have authority over administrating that contract, and some recourse contractually to put pressure on them.

That would be the extent of her authority.

To use your own example:

Daniel had absolutely ZERO authority over Jack simply by virtue of the fact that he was a citizen.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 09:50 AM
<snip>
Actually, if it's an IOA operation, the IOA have final say in everything. If they say "X person needs to go!", they will be fired. If the IOA says "Young is not fit for command", Young is to be removed from command. That's how it works.

Nobody ever argued that the Icarus Project and Destiny being at heart civilian operations meant that all civilians are above all military personnel.

beafly
April 12th, 2010, 10:16 AM
No. It's not how it works.

I don't think you understand the relationship between civilian and military organizations within the US Government.

The IOA absolutely does have the right to say "X person needs to go!". And in most cases such a request would result in the desired action.

But they absolutely do not have the authority to actually remove the Col from command. Only his superior officer could do so, and he is under no obligation to relieve himself at the whim of an HR person from the funding organization.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 12th, 2010, 10:31 AM
The way I see it, the forums are frequented by a whole bunch of people who are either in the military or who are fans of the military. In their eyes, the military can do no wrong and the civilians should be happy the military is there to protect them. As such, the civilians are whiny little ingrates for staging the coup since the military's done nothing but benign stuff for them. Therefore, it is perfectly OK to "karate chop" a few innocent civilians.

Scuse me, big fan of the military here, also member of the military here. I have been pretty much repeating myself over and over that TJ did the right thing in not escalating the violence for no reason. In fact I think you'll find that anybody who knows anything about military matters would agree with TJ's choice. On top of that I've had to point out to countless people that being in the military does not make people karate masters, so the idea of TJ and the Airmen them beating up all the civilians is rather ridiculous.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 10:33 AM
But they absolutely do not have the authority to actually remove the Col from command. Only his superior officer could do so, and he is under no obligation to relieve himself at the whim of an HR person from the funding organization.
They could if they said "Wray should have command!". I'm not saying they can dictate who leads the military, but who leads the expedition as a whole.

Lahela
April 12th, 2010, 10:50 AM
No. It's not how it works.

I don't think you understand the relationship between civilian and military organizations within the US Government.

The IOA absolutely does have the right to say "X person needs to go!". And in most cases such a request would result in the desired action.

But they absolutely do not have the authority to actually remove the Col from command. Only his superior officer could do so, and he is under no obligation to relieve himself at the whim of an HR person from the funding organization.

The IOA isn't the funding organisation. They are a joint committee from all the nations involved in the Stargate program and they ultimately have the say over who is in and who is out. Remember the SGA ep Midway?

Jper
April 12th, 2010, 11:14 AM
Scuse me, big fan of the military here, also member of the military here. I have been pretty much repeating myself over and over that TJ did the right thing in not escalating the violence for no reason. In fact I think you'll find that anybody who knows anything about military matters would agree with TJ's choice. On top of that I've had to point out to countless people that being in the military does not make people karate masters, so the idea of TJ and the Airmen them beating up all the civilians is rather ridiculous.

:) :)

beafly
April 12th, 2010, 11:21 AM
The IOA isn't the funding organisation. They are a joint committee from all the nations involved in the Stargate program and they ultimately have the say over who is in and who is out. Remember the SGA ep Midway?

Have they ordered Col Young relieved of command?

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 12th, 2010, 11:29 AM
beafly,


Have they ordered Col Young relieved of command?

Given that we know Col. Young was planning to lie to his superiors regarding his attack and marooning of Rush, do we really know whether Young's been relieved? He was willing to lie about one thing. Why not something else?

Jper
April 12th, 2010, 11:29 AM
Have they ordered Col Young relieved of command?

Well, Wray was going to report in to her superiors on Earth and probably ask for Young's relieve of command, but Young did not want her using the stones. So she has never been able to report in.

beafly
April 12th, 2010, 11:35 AM
So, we all agree the answer is no, he has never been relieved of command.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 12th, 2010, 11:37 AM
beafly,


So, we all agree the answer is no, he has never been relieved of command.

We don't know. It's as simple as that. He could have been relieved and we've not learned he's been relieved.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 11:42 AM
So, we all agree the answer is no, he has never been relieved of command.
Yes.

But he could be if the IOA wanted him out of command.

Lahela
April 12th, 2010, 11:46 AM
So, we all agree the answer is no, he has never been relieved of command.

I didn't say he had been. I was just correcting you on the role of the IOA.

Jper
April 12th, 2010, 11:48 AM
Yes.

But he could be if the IOA wanted him out of command.

Oh the IOA want him out of command, that much is certain. The IOA by the means of Wray want control over the Destiny, but until now they have been unable to get Gen. O'Neill so far to relieve him. However, Young has since given them more and more arguments and evidence to keep pressuring the US military to relieve Young. However, relieving Young doesn't mean Wray will in charge. They could easily put someone else in charge. Of course Wray is one of the candidates. And that is the problem. :)

Back on topic, I think TJ proved to be a good replacement for Young, or at least a better leader than Young in the scene we should be discussing. ;)

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 12:47 PM
Back on topic, I think TJ proved to be a good replacement for Young, or at least a better leader than Young in the scene we should be discussing. ;)
Oh yes, TJ is by far the most competent military member of the crew to lead the expedition at this time. Greer is a seemingly loose cannon (and not diplomatic enough to lead), Scott is immature, Young is volatile and potentially violent. Meanwhile, TJ is the, dare I say it "motherly" type, cut from the same cloth as Elizabeth. She's military but acts more like a civilian most of the time (in her capacity of a medic and de facto shrink). She knows that not all situations can be solved with violence and knows how to be diplomatic. She's clearly a better candidate for sole command than Young (or any other military member of the crew).

She's a good candidate for a rule by committee as well.

hedwig
April 12th, 2010, 01:23 PM
beafly,



Given that we know Col. Young was planning to lie to his superiors regarding his attack and marooning of Rush, do we really know whether Young's been relieved? He was willing to lie about one thing. Why not something else?


Well, Wray was going to report in to her superiors on Earth and probably ask for Young's relieve of command, but Young did not want her using the stones. So she has never been able to report in.

In the short time Chloe was on earth when she and Dr. Brightman traded bodies, does anyone think (or is this totally off topic?:)) that Chloe had the opportunity to talk to anyone about what had been going on? She certainly had enough time to explain the situation enough to get a doctor to trade bodies with her, and I doubt she spent whatever time she had on earth keeping her mouth shut about events.


Oh yes, TJ is by far the most competent military member of the crew to lead the expedition at this time. Greer is a seemingly loose cannon (and not diplomatic enough to lead), Scott is immature, Young is volatile and potentially violent. Meanwhile, TJ is the, dare I say it "motherly" type, cut from the same cloth as Elizabeth. She's military but acts more like a civilian most of the time (in her capacity of a medic and de facto shrink). She knows that not all situations can be solved with violence and knows how to be diplomatic. She's clearly a better candidate for sole command than Young (or any other military member of the crew).

She's a good candidate for a rule by committee as well.

Re the bolded: Personally I like Young being in command:), ... but I think TJ would be a better candidate for command than any of the others. She's calm, she seems to think things through, she asks for advice, she listens. Not sure how well she'd do in an attack like they'd just been through, but from what I've seen of her so far, she's the only one that doesn't seem to have a personal agenda in getting leadership. And she likely doesn't even want leadership. But she'd still be a better choice, in my opinion.

Jper
April 12th, 2010, 01:59 PM
In the short time Chloe was on earth when she and Dr. Brightman traded bodies, does anyone think (or is this totally off topic?:)) that Chloe had the opportunity to talk to anyone about what had been going on? She certainly had enough time to explain the situation enough to get a doctor to trade bodies with her, and I doubt she spent whatever time she had on earth keeping her mouth shut about events.

Maybe we'll find out next episode?



Re the bolded: Personally I like Young being in command:), ... but I think TJ would be a better candidate for command than any of the others. She's calm, she seems to think things through, she asks for advice, she listens. Not sure how well she'd do in an attack like they'd just been through, but from what I've seen of her so far, she's the only one that doesn't seem to have a personal agenda in getting leadership. And she likely doesn't even want leadership. But she'd still be a better choice, in my opinion.

As to quote J.K. Rowling in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows:

"It is a curious thing, but perhaps those who are best suited to power are those who have never sought it. Those who have leadership thrust upon them, and take up the mantle because they must, and find to their own surprise that they wear it well."

mgbland
April 12th, 2010, 03:24 PM
The airman should have pulled the trigger rather than waiting for TJ's order. It would have been thrown the power back to the military. Not sure how they were able to get her radio away from her. Still, insisting they open the doors before she treated his wound would have given the military more leverage.

hedwig
April 12th, 2010, 03:33 PM
Maybe we'll find out next episode?



As to quote J.K. Rowling in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows:

"It is a curious thing, but perhaps those who are best suited to power are those who have never sought it. Those who have leadership thrust upon them, and take up the mantle because they must, and find to their own surprise that they wear it well."

Indeed. Good quote. :)

nx01a
April 12th, 2010, 04:41 PM
As Scott pointed out when they stormed the civilians, they still have to live with these people tomorrow. Going around killing people would have solved nothing. And one gun with 7 or so bullets can only get them so far, anyway. ;)

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 12th, 2010, 04:54 PM
The airman should have pulled the trigger rather than waiting for TJ's order. It would have been thrown the power back to the military. Not sure how they were able to get her radio away from her. Still, insisting they open the doors before she treated his wound would have given the military more leverage.

Yes because that'll help, killing people that they have to work with. If the airman shot one of the civs then if TJ was trying to get more leverage, either the civs would gang up on them, or the injured person would bleed out and die from lack of medical attention. Or most likely both would happen. Not helpful. Dealing with a disgruntled civilian populace is about hearts and minds, not shooting people willy nilly. The military know this, which is why they precisely why they ended the mutiny without shooting anyone. Things are still bad, but they'd be far worse if people had been shot.

jelgate
April 12th, 2010, 05:00 PM
We should of had the airman shoot Rush. It would have solved a lot of problems:P

The Shrike
April 12th, 2010, 05:59 PM
The airman should have pulled the trigger rather than waiting for TJ's order...Barring a physical attack by the civilians, there was no way he'd fire on them unless TJ gave the order. Lets face it, this wasn't Ai Qaeda they were dealing with, it was a bunch of disgruntled civilians. There was no need to escalate the situation further.

The Shrike
April 12th, 2010, 06:00 PM
We should of had the airman shoot Rush. It would have solved a lot of problems:PFor the blue aliens.

pipi
April 12th, 2010, 07:03 PM
The airman should have pulled the trigger rather than waiting for TJ's order. It would have been thrown the power back to the military. Not sure how they were able to get her radio away from her. Still, insisting they open the doors before she treated his wound would have given the military more leverage.

I don't think he got the balls to kill anyone, he's just a little Airman. Probably a weakling in Greer's books.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 11:56 PM
The airman should have pulled the trigger rather than waiting for TJ's order. It would have been thrown the power back to the military. Not sure how they were able to get her radio away from her. Still, insisting they open the doors before she treated his wound would have given the military more leverage.
Yes, and what then? The civilians would have loathed every single military member with a passion, refusing to co-operate on anything but the most necessary of operations to keep them alive. Tension would fester and eventually, full-scale war would break out.

nx01a
April 12th, 2010, 11:59 PM
...and Young would ensure that Eli was safe while Rush would ensure that Rush was safe and, with all the civilians dead, the two of them would find a way to get themselves and the military back to Earth. The end. :D

Wayston
April 13th, 2010, 02:14 AM
one other thing... shouldn't TJ at least have tried to radio to young for instructions? obviously she might have assumed the situation was too tense to wait but still...

pipi
April 13th, 2010, 02:36 AM
Guess TJ is more of a follower than a leader. Not that there is anything wrong with that. They make good soldiers.

FallenAngelII
April 13th, 2010, 02:39 AM
one other thing... shouldn't TJ at least have tried to radio to young for instructions? obviously she might have assumed the situation was too tense to wait but still...
Did she even have a radio on her? I don't remember seeing her carrying a radio. And if she did, the civilians would have confiscated it.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 13th, 2010, 03:48 AM
I don't think he got the balls to kill anyone, he's just a little Airman. Probably a weakling in Greer's books.

Guess TJ is more of a follower than a leader. Not that there is anything wrong with that. They make good soldiers.

Ok so it's pretty clear you know nothing about the military. Firstly as the senior NCO, it's Greer's job to look out for the enlisted personnel. The military does not operate on a "you must kill this many to be respected" ratio, do you job to the best of your ability is all that's required.

Secondly followers do not make good soldiers, the military prises intuitive and leadership, and actively tries to encourage those qualities, someone who can only follow orders and not think for themselves is no use, because there will be times when they will have to make snap decisions and their will be no superiors to make the choices for them. Also how is TJ in any way a follower, she didn't order the Airman to shoot everyone, an example that was followed by the rest of the military in dealing with the mutiny.

pipi
April 13th, 2010, 04:20 AM
Ok so it's pretty clear you know nothing about the military. Firstly as the senior NCO, it's Greer's job to look out for the enlisted personnel. The military does not operate on a "you must kill this many to be respected" ratio, do you job to the best of your ability is all that's required.

I was referring to the physical and mental context of actually killing someone regardless of who you are or what rank or whatever you're talking about. It's got nothing to do with doing your job good or not or whether you're an expert in the military.



Secondly followers do not make good soldiers, the military prises intuitive and leadership, and actively tries to encourage those qualities, someone who can only follow orders and not think for themselves is no use, because there will be times when they will have to make snap decisions and their will be no superiors to make the choices for them. Also how is TJ in any way a follower, she didn't order the Airman to shoot everyone, an example that was followed by the rest of the military in dealing with the mutiny.

Both following and leading are valued qualities in a soldier for specific positions. I don't need to be a military expert to know if you put too many leaders into a team it won't function very efficiently. It is basic human dynamics, sometimes people just need to shutup and follow orders.

I also don't see how my statement "more of a follower than a leader" in your eyes is interpretted as "is a pure follower with zero leadership skills"? You're just flaming by jumping to conclusions. I only compared two items, she could be an expert leader and also an expert follower, if you had to measure it, I'd say the following bar is a little higher than the leadership bar which is only what I said. I didn't even say what the difference in the bars were. TJ's following bar was a bit more than her leadership qualities in the episode because she didn't put up much of a defence to Wray as compared with lets say Scott would have in the same situation. That was all that was implied. Anything more and you're just flaming for no reason.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 13th, 2010, 04:51 AM
I was referring to the physical and mental context of actually killing someone regardless of who you are or what rank or whatever you're talking about. It's got nothing to do with doing your job good or not or whether you're an expert in the military.

Both following and leading are valued qualities in a soldier for specific positions. I don't need to be a military expert to know if you put too many leaders into a team it won't function very efficiently. It is basic human dynamics, sometimes people just need to shutup and follow orders.

I also don't see how my statement "more of a follower than a leader" in your eyes is interpretted as "is a pure follower with zero leadership skills"? You're just flaming by jumping to conclusions. I only compared two items, she could be an expert leader and also an expert follower, if you had to measure it, I'd say the following bar is a little higher than the leadership bar which is only what I said. I didn't even say what the difference in the bars were. TJ's following bar was a bit more than her leadership qualities in the episode because she didn't put up much of a defence to Wray as compared with lets say Scott would have in the same situation. That was all that was implied. Anything more and you're just flaming for no reason.

So your still not understanding, killing people isn't seen as a badge of honour in the military, in fact most people, even combat veterans in the military often have no idea how many, or even if they have killed anyone. The nature of combat being a lot of people shooting at hidden and often distant figures, getting confirmed kills is tricky. On top of that Greer himself acted in a restrained manner, as I've said about 100 times on this and other Divided topics, Greer walked into the Mess with an unchambered weapon, he wasn't interested in shooting civilians so I don't see why he would criticise one of him men for not shooting civilians either.

And your lack of knowledge does show with your comments on leadership in the military. What happens if your section commander goes down, the 2 IC needs to step up. What happens if he falls? The next man needs to take over. Everyone needs to be prepared to lead the way if the situation calls for it. Now almost everyone in the military has to take orders from someone, and the military needs people who can follow and interpret orders but also have the initiative and leadership to make decisions to help the overall goal of the operation.

As for TJ, the fact that you labelled her a follower for that situation was ridiculous, she was the ranking officer present there, with no superior officer to look to orders from. So she didn't dither, she made a tatical decision, a decision that turned out to be the correct course of action, hardly the actions of a follower.

Daro
April 13th, 2010, 05:00 AM
Not to mention that shooting unarmed civilians, no matter how much they've pissed you off, is generally considered a bad thing.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 13th, 2010, 05:21 AM
Not to mention that shooting unarmed civilians, no matter how much they've pissed you off, is generally considered a bad thing.

Well it's standard procedure, at least in Western militaries, to try and deal with disgruntled civilian populaces via hearts and minds rather than putting people up against a wall and shooting them. Seems to work better.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 05:35 AM
TM6P,


Well it's standard procedure, at least in Western militaries, to try and deal with disgruntled civilian populaces via hearts and minds rather than putting people up against a wall and shooting them. Seems to work better.

That's a very good point. If Young had wanted to he could have spaced Rush with some justification once he discovered the tracking device in Rush's chest. He didn't. He admitted to Wray that he knows he screwed up when he marooned Rush. I do think Young is a decent man and everything he's done, not in the heat of anger, reinforces that position. I think he will try to open up some and spread the power around. He has to recognize his own anger managment and impluse control issues and will hopefully take steps to mitigate those concerns.

The Shrike
April 13th, 2010, 11:33 AM
Well it's standard procedure, at least in Western militaries, to try and deal with disgruntled civilian populaces via hearts and minds rather than putting people up against a wall and shooting them. Seems to work better.Doubly so when they need those same civilians to ensure their own survival. Dead scientists = no fixing the ship or going home = dead soldiers.

Wayston
April 13th, 2010, 11:36 AM
that doesn't apply to wray or chloe though ;)

The Shrike
April 13th, 2010, 11:46 AM
that doesn't apply to wray or chloe though ;)True, that's why I'd have them be the ones to use the stones when they need qualified help on various issues, or doing grunt (carrying supplies, items) work on away missions, given their expendability.

FallenAngelII
April 13th, 2010, 11:36 PM
that doesn't apply to wray or chloe though ;)
Dead Wray because she tried to relieve Young of his command after he proved himself dangerous to civilians? No more IOA money, the exclusion of the military from all current and future Stargate-related operations, the discharge and confinement of the soldier(s) involved.

Dead Chloe? Stargate programs goes public.

nx01a
April 14th, 2010, 12:26 AM
Killing one ex-senator's wife is nothing for those IOA inglourious basterds :D in order to keep the Stargate Program secret. ;) I'm actually hoping for that turn of events. Chloe vs Wray. :D
The IOA would be foolish to let the death of one minor operative on a ship with little strategic value billions of light years from Earth under extremely stressful circumstances have that massive an impact on their involvement with the Stargate Program or the militaries involved. She might be missed, but certainly not mourned or avenged.

Wayston
April 14th, 2010, 04:04 AM
Dead Wray because she tried to relieve Young of his command after he proved himself dangerous to civilians? No more IOA money, the exclusion of the military from all current and future Stargate-related operations, the discharge and confinement of the soldier(s) involved.

Dead Chloe? Stargate programs goes public.

that's a bit exaggerated don't you think?

dead wray - either Young gets officially relieved through IOA pressure as a compromise between IOA and US military or the IOA disavows wray as the US military controls the stargate and most of the spaceships, that is apart from providing invaluable services on the ground; presumably a bit of both solutions so everyone saves face. What they would not do is blow up their cooperation over something inconsequential as something happening millions of lightyears away in a group of people they have probably already written off

dead chloe - if the senator's wife goes public she'll be ridiculed as a crazy drunk person having lost it over the death of her husband and daughter, or better yet it could be played that she lost it and shot them herself over some paranoid delusions

note that I'm not advocating their deaths, simply stating that they're pretty expendable when push comes to shove

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 14th, 2010, 04:07 AM
jelgate,


We should of had the airman shoot Rush. It would have solved a lot of problems:P

Thereby creating a ton more. Eli isn't Rush. He's good but he doesn't have the training, study, and experience with Ancient tech Rush has.

Phenom
April 14th, 2010, 04:20 AM
Scuse me, big fan of the military here, also member of the military here. I have been pretty much repeating myself over and over that TJ did the right thing in not escalating the violence for no reason. In fact I think you'll find that anybody who knows anything about military matters would agree with TJ's choice. On top of that I've had to point out to countless people that being in the military does not make people karate masters, so the idea of TJ and the Airmen them beating up all the civilians is rather ridiculous.

I disagree with you. No person in their right mind puts down their gun when there is no threat. Sorry mate but you learn that on day 1.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 14th, 2010, 04:36 AM
I disagree with you. No person in their right mind puts down their gun when there is no threat. Sorry mate but you learn that on day 1.

And this is from what military experience? Escalating violence against civilian populations does not work, there are countless examples throughout history. TJ and the airmen had the choice of surrender or escalating the violence and making Young and the other military personnel's job harder. They chose the correct option.

pipi
April 14th, 2010, 04:41 AM
So your still not understanding, killing people isn't seen as a badge of honour in the military, in fact most people, even combat veterans in the military often have no idea how many, or even if they have killed anyone. The nature of combat being a lot of people shooting at hidden and often distant figures, getting confirmed kills is tricky.

I don't care. Good for you.



On top of that Greer himself acted in a restrained manner, as I've said about 100 times on this and other Divided topics, Greer walked into the Mess with an unchambered weapon, he wasn't interested in shooting civilians so I don't see why he .

I never dissed Greer so you don't need to defend his credentials, Greer is a 5 star hero in my book. And I never said Greer "would criticise one of him men for not shooting civilians either". That was your own false interpretation of my statment "Probably a weakling in Greer's books". I'll retype my reply here again just for you to read: "I was referring to the physical and mental context of actually killing someone regardless of who you are".

Two components here, 1. Physically (eg. a fist fight) compared to Greer's standards, Airman is PROBABLY a weakling; 2. Mentally compared to Greer's standards, if a superior ordered to shoot a little kid for instance with no reason, Greer would just do it where as Airman would PROBABLY hesitate which makes him in Greer's eyes PROBABLY a weakling. Now if you noticed I emphasis the word PROBABLY because I myself am not 100% certain, it is only my opinionative guess. And I am entitled to my opinion as to you are so when you read the word PROBABLY it means don't take it so seriously.



And your lack of knowledge does show with your comments on leadership in the military. What happens if your section commander goes down, the 2 IC needs to step up. What happens if he falls? The next man needs to take over. Everyone needs to be prepared to lead the way if the situation calls for it. Now almost everyone in the military has to take orders from someone, and the military needs people who can follow and interpret orders but also have the initiative and leadership to make decisions to help the overall goal of the operation.

I acknowledge that I'm not an military expert and I don't claim to be, and you know what? I don't care. I was only expressing a one lined opinion as my free right. Just to let you know your bully boy tactics of being an expert won't change my opinion ever! I didn't realise I needed to be an expert to post an opinion. I never disrespected you personally. I'm open to an apology anytime.



As for TJ, the fact that you labelled her a follower for that situation was ridiculous, she was the ranking officer present there, with no superior officer to look to orders from. So she didn't dither, she made a tatical decision, a decision that turned out to be the correct course of action, hardly the actions of a follower.
That's where we'll agree to disagree and I'll have no further beef unless you keep up these persoanl attacks which I'll have to report.

Phenom
April 14th, 2010, 04:42 AM
And this is from what military experience? Escalating violence against civilian populations does not work, there are countless examples throughout history. TJ and the airmen had the choice of surrender or escalating the violence and making Young and the other military personnel's job harder. They chose the correct option.

I don't supply my resume but I guarantee if you worked with me and gave up your gun just because you were told too, then you wouldn't last long.

In relation to the escalating violence amongst civililian populations, yes going out and gunning down a bunch of civvies for no reason is probably not a good idea. But history does not apply here as there are no past incidences in reality that compare to a group of military and civvies being stuck on a ship, with the majority of the military cut off from the rest.

I am interested to find how you think Young's job would have been harder? Sometimes in these sorts of situations, violence is the answer and giving up tactical advantages in the hope of talking through issues is not playing the percentages.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 14th, 2010, 05:14 AM
That's where we'll agree to disagree and I'll have no further beef unless you keep up these persoanl attacks which I'll have to report.
I hadn't realised that disagreeing with you was a personnel attack.


Two components here, 1. Physically (eg. a fist fight) compared to Greer's standards, Airman is PROBABLY a weakling; 2. Mentally compared to Greer's standards, if a superior ordered to shoot a little kid for instance with no reason, Greer would just do it where as Airman would PROBABLY hesitate which makes him in Greer's eyes PROBABLY a weakling. Now if you noticed I emphasis the word PROBABLY because I myself am not 100% certain, it is only my opinionative guess. And I am entitled to my opinion as to you are so when you read the word PROBABLY it means don't take it so seriously.
OK so you liking digging yourself a hole. If Greer was ordered by a superior to shoot a child, you know what he'd do, tell the superior to go stuff himself because that order would be illegal and breaking one of the major ROE's. Greer is a Marine, a proud member of an organisation that has over 200 years of history, not a member of the SS. When it comes to things like this, we are not dealing with opinions, we are dealing with facts. People in the military act in certain ways. There is no competition over how tough or psychically strong you are, in fact a lot of guys in the military are thin and wiry, and frankly there's nothing mentally strong about shooting kids.

Further if Greer is the senior NCO, his job is to look out for the enlisted men and women of his unit, if one of them is suffering, perhaps feeling guilty because they have shot someone, then it's Greer's job to look out for them, not call them a weakling.



I don't supply my resume but I guarantee if you worked with me and gave up your gun just because you were told too, then you wouldn't last long.

I'd report you to a superior and have you up on charges for an unlawful order then. It's rather bad from for Senior Officers to criticise subordinates put in an untenable position through no fault of their own.

I am interested to find how you think Young's job would have been harder? Sometimes in these sorts of situations, violence is the answer and giving up tactical advantages in the hope of talking through issues is not playing the percentages
Young has to work with these people. The military has to work with these people, and people have a breaking point. There comes a point, especially if you start shooting people, where people will just go "screw you" and not work. If the civilians down tools again, what's Young going to do, keep shooting them? They need these people to live, just like the civilians need the military. When your in a dangerous situation like the Destiny you need to know that everyone is pulling the same direction and everyone has your back. There's already a lack of trust, you think anyone would trust each other again if unarmed civilians were shot. Apart from that the militaries cohesiveness would fall apart, because shooting civilians is an unlawful and illegal act, Young frankly would find it hard to order his personnel to do anything like that, they'd be within their rights to remove him from command at that point. It would also totally legitimise the mutiny as well, because the military personnel would break military law by shooting civilians.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 14th, 2010, 05:27 AM
Phenom,


Sometimes in these sorts of situations, violence is the answer and giving up tactical advantages in the hope of talking through issues is not playing the percentages.

So, who is expendable enough among the science team for Young to beat, maim, or execute in order to cow the civilians on board into submission to his authority?

The Shrike
April 14th, 2010, 05:32 AM
...Dead Chloe? Stargate programs goes public.Dead Chloe = dead Chloe's mother before she spills the beans.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 14th, 2010, 05:47 AM
Dead Chloe = dead Chloe's mother before she spills the beans.

Not even that drastic, brainwashed mother, they have the tech.

beafly
April 14th, 2010, 06:18 AM
The Mighty 6 platoon...

I agree with your assessment of TJ and the Airman de-escalating the situation.

The question I have is why would he hand his firearm over to them? Why not just holster it?

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 14th, 2010, 06:58 AM
The Mighty 6 platoon...

I agree with your assessment of TJ and the Airman de-escalating the situation.

The question I have is why would he hand his firearm over to them? Why not just holster it?

Because they can take it off him. OK so in the real world the airman might try to holster the pistol, we would then get the civilians telling him to hand it over, ect. They have only 40 minutes here though, so due to time constraints (and the airman realising the bleeding obvious, mutinous people don't let prisoners be armed) they just had him hand it over.

beafly
April 14th, 2010, 07:09 AM
I guess I wouldn't have considered myself a prisoner... until they had my weapon.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 14th, 2010, 07:51 AM
I guess I wouldn't have considered myself a prisoner... until they had my weapon.

Well what do you think would happen, you think that the civilians, in open mutiny against the military personnel are going to let armed military personnel roam freely on their part of the ship?

beafly
April 14th, 2010, 08:35 AM
Well what do you think would happen, you think that the civilians, in open mutiny against the military personnel are going to let armed military personnel roam freely on their part of the ship?

I think that the weapon is a pretty good reason for them to let me roam around a bit, yes. They can either negotiate. Or use force to disarm me. The decision to use force is far more grave staring at the muzzle of a pistol.

This goes back to my original assertion. TJ and the airman gave up a significant negotiating position.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 14th, 2010, 08:56 AM
I think that the weapon is a pretty good reason for them to let me roam around a bit, yes. They can either negotiate. Or use force to disarm me. The decision to use force is far more grave staring at the muzzle of a pistol.

This goes back to my original assertion. TJ and the airman gave up a significant negotiating position.

They had no negotiating position to start with! Their only threat was that of shooting civilians, that was not viable for a number of reasons. 1. it would break US military Law, 2. they only had a limited ammunition supply to carry out that threat anyway, and 3rdly shooting civilians would legitimise the mutiny. The mutiny needed to be put down as bloodlessly as possible, it was done so in the ep, and TJ helped in that goal by surrendering her untenable position rather than causing more problems through an escalation in violence.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 14th, 2010, 01:32 PM
TM6P,


They had no negotiating position to start with! Their only threat was that of shooting civilians, that was not viable for a number of reasons. 1. it would break US military Law, 2. they only had a limited ammunition supply to carry out that threat anyway, and 3rdly shooting civilians would legitimise the mutiny. The mutiny needed to be put down as bloodlessly as possible, it was done so in the ep, and TJ helped in that goal by surrendering her untenable position rather than causing more problems through an escalation in violence.

If the airman had shot someone Rush and Wray would have taken more drasitc actions against the Military they'd stranded on the other side of the "Line" with a certian amount of justification. I also agree it would have made the need for the removal of military control more teniable to people who might have been on the fence.

I do wonder if Lt. Jame's action will push more people into the anti-military camp. It's certianly not going to help win friends and allies.

Phenom
April 14th, 2010, 10:40 PM
Phenom,



So, who is expendable enough among the science team for Young to beat, maim, or execute in order to cow the civilians on board into submission to his authority?

I am not entirely sure why everyone equates the term violence with severe beatings or execution. I am certainly not saying that an execution should have been done, nor a severe beating for that matter. However if they continued to escalate the coup after the gun was not handed over, then they would have to expect that those who they are pushing are going to push back in some way.




I'd report you to a superior and have you up on charges for an unlawful order then. It's rather bad from for Senior Officers to criticise subordinates put in an untenable position through no fault of their own.

Are you referring to TJ's order? I wasn't aware of the rank differences between her and the bloke with the gun. Regardless I would want to have a bucketload of respect and trust in the senior officer in this case to go against my gut instincts. TJ is a medic, and although she seems a pretty good one, that doesn't mean that in a tactical situation she is any good.


Young has to work with these people. The military has to work with these people, and people have a breaking point. There comes a point, especially if you start shooting people, where people will just go "screw you" and not work. If the civilians down tools again, what's Young going to do, keep shooting them? They need these people to live, just like the civilians need the military. When your in a dangerous situation like the Destiny you need to know that everyone is pulling the same direction and everyone has your back. There's already a lack of trust, you think anyone would trust each other again if unarmed civilians were shot. Apart from that the militaries cohesiveness would fall apart, because shooting civilians is an unlawful and illegal act, Young frankly would find it hard to order his personnel to do anything like that, they'd be within their rights to remove him from command at that point. It would also totally legitimise the mutiny as well, because the military personnel would break military law by shooting civilians.

I would think that the only motivation the civvies would need is the motivation to get home. I would be surprised if they would let personal disputes with Young etc get in the way of them achieiving their own personal goals....which just happen to be the same as Young's. In essence, Young may give the orders, but they may be following them simply because they know that following them is the only way they will get home. Its not ideal but in the weeks to follow there is probably going to be some fall out from this episode anyway.

Regardless, one of the best things I have loved about this episodes is the fantastic amount of questions it raised. Although you and I disagree on this one for our own reasons, this is much better than some of the earlier eps where I was just praying for something to happen. Hopefully there will be more eps like this to come!! Besides, how boring would the forums be if everyone just agreed with each other!! :)

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 15th, 2010, 01:44 AM
Are you referring to TJ's order? I wasn't aware of the rank differences between her and the bloke with the gun. Regardless I would want to have a bucketload of respect and trust in the senior officer in this case to go against my gut instincts. TJ is a medic, and although she seems a pretty good one, that doesn't mean that in a tactical situation she is any good.

Shes a 1st lieutenant with medical training, not a full blown medic, actual medics are NCOs. She, simply having the most first aid training has been lumbered with the job of medic because they dont have anyone else, but she is first and foremost a military officer, and she is a good 7 or 8 ranks higher than the Airman. She gave him a lawful order, to not obey would lead to0 him up on charges of disobeying orders.

FallenAngelII
April 15th, 2010, 05:47 AM
dead wray - either Young gets officially relieved through IOA pressure as a compromise between IOA and US military or the IOA disavows wray as the US military controls the stargate and most of the spaceships, that is apart from providing invaluable services on the ground; presumably a bit of both solutions so everyone saves face. What they would not do is blow up their cooperation over something inconsequential as something happening millions of lightyears away in a group of people they have probably already written off
The U.S. military doesn't "control" anything. They are allowed to access and operate the SGC, the ships, etc. Since several years back, the IOA controls everything. Remember the incident where the IOA threatened to give the Stargate to the Chinese? They can really do that. If the U.S. military allows Young to commit actual murder on a fairly innocent fellow crew member, yet retain his command, the IOA will swoop in and not only stop funding American SG-related projects but actually take them away and give them to other countries.

The Stargate program hasn't been in the control of the U.S. military for over half a decade now.


dead chloe - if the senator's wife goes public she'll be ridiculed as a crazy drunk person having lost it over the death of her husband and daughter, or better yet it could be played that she lost it and shot them herself over some paranoid delusions
1) There are already people suspicious of the many mysterious incidents that have occurred every single time an alien has attacked Earth. There are already people out there who believe these things. And I bet she's got some proof on her side as well.
2) Yes, because assassinating her is the right thing to do.



note that I'm not advocating their deaths, simply stating that they're pretty expendable when push comes to shove
Not through deliberate murder.

Wayston
April 15th, 2010, 07:53 AM
The U.S. military doesn't "control" anything. They are allowed to access and operate the SGC, the ships, etc. Since several years back, the IOA controls everything. Remember the incident where the IOA threatened to give the Stargate to the Chinese? They can really do that. If the U.S. military allows Young to commit actual murder on a fairly innocent fellow crew member, yet retain his command, the IOA will swoop in and not only stop funding American SG-related projects but actually take them away and give them to other countries.

The Stargate program hasn't been in the control of the U.S. military for over half a decade now.

I have to say I missed some episodes due to being in college and still haven't come around to watch them, but I don't recall the US military ever abandoning its ownership of the stargate and daedalus program. As I understand it the IOA is a committee which receives oversight in these programs in return for funding. But they don't own the stargate (that's either the americans or the russians (in which case the US and not the IOA is renting it), depending on what the details are of the korolev starship deal) nor the battleships themselves. They do run the atlantis expedition (not just oversight) and the battlefleet missions apparantly. The IOA could screw the US in terms of funding. The US could screw the IOA by pulling out their toys (which would leave the IOA with the badly damaged chinese ship and some space debris formerly known as the korolev). It all comes down to money methinks.


1) There are already people suspicious of the many mysterious incidents that have occurred every single time an alien has attacked Earth. There are already people out there who believe these things. And I bet she's got some proof on her side as well.

no there's no proof, it all went poof. hihi.


2) Yes, because assassinating her is the right thing to do.

eh?



Not through deliberate murder.

hey if you gotta go, you gotta go

Gollumpus
April 15th, 2010, 10:57 AM
I wasn't too surprised that she ordered the airman to stand down, however, she did not say to surrender the weapon so I was kinda' surprised at how that turned out. To be honest, TJ and the airman would likely not need a weapon to put down the insurrection.

It could be viewed that the airman holding the weapon on the civilians was doing so not so much to protect himself (which he was doing) but rather to keep them at a distance so he would not have to apply physical force to defend himself. And I believe it would have gone very badly for the civilians.

When the scene starts, TJ is being guided by Volker and Brody to somewhere (to be honest, she could probably have overpowered both of them assuming that neither of them is secretly Bruce Lee). They meet up with the airman who is faced off against three civilians, none of whom are armed, all of whom he could likely take out without breaking too much of a sweat. When Wray and her companions arrive on the scene they could have been taken out as quickly. Right there you have 8 of the civilian insurgents and their primary leader taken out. All they would have had to do is find Rush. Game over.

regards,
G.

TheRandomOne
April 15th, 2010, 11:06 AM
I wasn't too surprised that she ordered the airman to stand down, however, she did not say to surrender the weapon so I was kinda' surprised at how that turned out. To be honest, TJ and the airman would likely not need a weapon to put down the insurrection.

It could be viewed that the airman holding the weapon on the civilians was doing so not so much to protect himself (which he was doing) but rather to keep them at a distance so he would not have to apply physical force to defend himself. And I believe it would have gone very badly for the civilians.

When the scene starts, TJ is being guided by Volker and Brody to somewhere (to be honest, she could probably have overpowered both of them assuming that neither of them is secretly Bruce Lee). They meet up with the airman who is faced off against three civilians, none of whom are armed, all of whom he could likely take out without breaking too much of a sweat. When Wray and her companions arrive on the scene they could have been taken out as quickly. Right there you have 8 of the civilian insurgents and their primary leader taken out. All they would have had to do is find Rush. Game over.

regards,
G.

There is a reason why Young did not use force. If the military used forced & started going all Jackie Chan on the civilians & scientists then they would probably rather be shot to death then help the military survive on that ship. If the civilians were killed & the military were the only ones left they would know nothing about how to run the ship especially during alien attacks & Young knows this

Wayston
April 15th, 2010, 11:24 AM
There is a reason why Young did not use force. If the military used forced & started going all Jackie Chan on the civilians & scientists then they would probably rather be shot to death then help the military survive on that ship. If the civilians were killed & the military were the only ones left they would know nothing about how to run the ship especially during alien attacks & Young knows this

you're quoting a post that said nothing about young whatsoever mate. Plus they were more than willing to use force if they had to, they rushed into the civvie area with their guns pointed firmly at the civvies. what exactly did you think was going to happen if they didn't all hit the dirt like a choir boy on a lazy sunday afternoon? group hug?

Gollumpus
April 15th, 2010, 12:05 PM
@Jack


you're quoting a post that said nothing about young whatsoever mate. Plus they were more than willing to use force if they had to, they rushed into the civvie area with their guns pointed firmly at the civvies. what exactly did you think was going to happen if they didn't all hit the dirt like a choir boy on a lazy sunday afternoon? group hug?

What he said.

I think the military showed a great deal of restraint in this episode. They could have used guns, but they didn't. They could have physically overpowered the civilians, but they didn't (outside of the guys that Greer put down and the one dummy who walked right into James' rifle butt. The three folks who were facing off against that one airman showed more sense).

regards,
G.

FallenAngelII
April 15th, 2010, 12:24 PM
I have to say I missed some episodes due to being in college and still haven't come around to watch them, but I don't recall the US military ever abandoning its ownership of the stargate and daedalus program.
They never actually lost control of either, but the IOA threatened to give the gate over to Russia and China on several occasions. It has not happened, but it can happen if the IOA wishes it.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 15th, 2010, 03:27 PM
FAII,


They never actually lost control of either, but the IOA threatened to give the gate over to Russia and China on several occasions. It has not happened, but it can happen if the IOA wishes it.

That seems to be quite a threat. Why would the US willingly give up control of the Stargate in Cheyenne Mountian regardless of what the IOA wants?

Wayston
April 15th, 2010, 11:42 PM
FAII,

That seems to be quite a threat. Why would the US willingly give up control of the Stargate in Cheyenne Mountian regardless of what the IOA wants?

That's what I'm wondering too. Can anyone point out specific episodes for these threats? I know about the russian threat that was paid off with the korolev, but that's it. Besides at this point in the series every faction could go out and take a stargate from an uninhabited planet.

Gollumpus
April 16th, 2010, 12:13 AM
They never actually lost control of either, but the IOA threatened to give the gate over to Russia and China on several occasions. It has not happened, but it can happen if the IOA wishes it.

Right. The IOA will remove the gate from Cheyenne Mountain and place it in a comparatively unstable nation like Russia or hand it over to China which could decide to close it's borders with the change of their ruling committee.

There's a better chance it could be sent to Canada. :P

regards,
G.

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 16th, 2010, 07:43 AM
I didn't really get TJ ordering the soldier to put his gun down when they were stuck on the wrong side of the line. Seems to me like the one with the gun was in a much better position to end the coup before it got well under way. What were the civies going to do? Rush him until he ran out of bullets? I think not!

They should have at least tried to find out what their status was (eg if there were any more soldiers on the wrong side of the line) before putting the gun down. They weren't exactly faced with a life threatening situation when they did.

(I hope the thread title is not a problem spoiler wise)

I completely get it :)
A lot has been made of the military actions towards the civilians but I don't see the military as being antagonistic. For me, TJ is 'the voice of the military' in this part. They're not about to start shooting people, but if you declare war, you'll get war. She has him lower the weapon because hurting people, shooting peole, isn't really something they're interested in.