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luckylad
April 10th, 2010, 04:41 AM
anyone else starting to love his charchter more and more? i like the man. I also like rush but he is such a little worm :P

reddevil18
April 10th, 2010, 04:48 AM
I've always liked Young and he's now slowly becoming my favorite character. It's between him, conniving Rush and Greer's hot body. I can't decide yet.

Vapor
April 10th, 2010, 04:56 AM
I've always liked Young to some extent, but this episode further solidified it. The scene where he walks in on Rush and Wray just makes me laugh. They thought they were so awesome in their position of power for thirty seconds, and then he walks in like nothing's wrong. lol

luckylad
April 10th, 2010, 05:03 AM
i liked especially when he told everyone to go to their quarters at the end, then stood at the door looking at everyones faces. He just oozes power :P. He is by far my favourite charchter him and greer and rush. I dislike wrays charchter alot

MattSilver 3k
April 10th, 2010, 05:40 AM
Young is probably my favourite character. It feels like a long time since I've liked a character this much. He's got gravitas, badass moments, the occasional hero moment, and most importantly: He's insane. Well, not really. But his unpredictability and temper just make me like him all the more.

reddevil18
April 10th, 2010, 06:06 AM
Young is probably my favourite character. It feels like a long time since I've liked a character this much. He's got gravitas, badass moments, the occasional hero moment, and most importantly: He's insane. Well, not really. But his unpredictability and temper just make me like him all the more.
Did I ever mention how much I love your sig? It's one of the reasons I like Young so much. He's so unlike any SG character we've had so far. I mean, we've seen different facets of him in different characters throughout the franchise - Col. Everett(Everett Young, eh?), Mayborne, Makepeace, but also O'Neill and other valuable commanders. But he's the first character to have all of those traits rolled up into one, messed-up, bad-ass, awesome package. Though, I dislike his curly hair. He needs to get it cut, pronto! Curly hair just doesn't suit him.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 10th, 2010, 06:27 AM
Rush is abosolutely correct when he calls Young dangerous. When Young isn't upset and angry he's fairly easy to deal with. When he's pissed off he attacks people when they aren't looking and leaves people behind on alien planets. I'm still curious to find out what happened regarding the attack on Col. Telford.

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 08:00 AM
Personally I find Young to be an interesting character, but I far from like him, and I am sure if'd be on the Desitny I wouldn't be able to stand the guy. For one, he's the worst military leader we've ever seen on stargate. Not to mention his disloyalty to his marriage, i.e. his affair. His aggressive behavior. His closed-mindedness. His short-sighted-ness. His radical behavior. And I could go on, but for now, his lack/inability to be a good leader makes me wonder how he ever made it to be an USAF Colonel.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 08:05 AM
Personally I find Young to be an interesting character, but I far from like him, and I am sure if'd be on the Desitny I wouldn't be able to stand the guy. For one, he's the worst military leader we've ever seen on stargate. Not to mention his disloyalty to his marriage, i.e. his affair. His aggressive behavior. His closed-mindedness. His short-sighted-ness. His radical behavior. And I could go on, but for now, his lack/inability to be a good leader makes me wonder how he ever made it to be an USAF Colonel.

Well, here in Canada there's an Air Force colonel on trial for murdering two young women and sexually assaulting two others. He was the commander of one of our biggest military bases. Just goes to show that you can be professional at work and a criminal at home.

Regarding Young, I think he's starting to grow. He needed to show everyone that he wouldn't bow to their demands or their blackmail, but now he needs to show them that he will talk and cooperate. I hope that's what his dialogue with Wray at the end was all about, anyway.

reddevil18
April 10th, 2010, 08:15 AM
For one, he's the worst military leader we've ever seen on stargate. Are you kidding?

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 08:30 AM
Are you kidding?

No, I'm dead serious. He's one of the worst leaders on stargate I've ever seen. His inability to communicate with the civilians is one of his biggest flaws. And the scene with James in Air was horrible. So was the confrontation between Rush and O'Neill in O'Neill's office. Leaving Rush on the planet was a grave mistake. He has his (good, even great) moments, but overall he's not fit to lead in this situation. He lacks diplomacy and in this situation this is crucial. Also, always taking Scott or Greer with him on mission is a serious mistake imho.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 08:41 AM
No, I'm dead serious. He's one of the worst leaders on stargate I've ever seen. His inability to communicate with the civilians is one of his biggest flaws. And the scene with James in Air was horrible. So was the confrontation between Rush and O'Neill in O'Neill's office. Leaving Rush on the planet was a grave mistake. He has his (good, even great) moments, but overall he's not fit to lead in this situation. He lacks diplomacy and in this situation this is crucial. Also, always taking Scott or Greer with him on mission is a serious mistake imho.

How so? Captain Kirk always took Spock and "Bones" with him. Well, a couple of ablative redshirts as well, but you get my point :P

reddevil18
April 10th, 2010, 08:42 AM
No, I'm dead serious. He's one of the worst leaders on stargate I've ever seen. His inability to communicate with the civilians is one of his biggest flaws. And the scene with James in Air was horrible. So was the confrontation between Rush and O'Neill in O'Neill's office. Leaving Rush on the planet was a grave mistake. He has his (good, even great) moments, but overall he's not fit to lead in this situation. He lacks diplomacy and in this situation this is crucial. Also, always taking Scott or Greer with him on mission is a serious mistake imho.I'd say he's not in line with the stoic leaders we've seen, like Hammond, but to call him THE worst, as you did? Come on.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 08:44 AM
I'd say he's not in line with the stoic leaders we've seen, like Hammond, but to call him THE worst, as you did? Come on.

Yeah, what about Cowan? Or Colonel Simmons? I mean, sure, they were villains but still... Worse than Young I think. :D

Commander Zelix
April 10th, 2010, 08:47 AM
He's a bad leader, but a good character.

I still can't believe he didn't even make a speech after the mutiny but just stood there as civilians walked pass him. Not the mark of a good leader, imo.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 08:52 AM
He's a bad leader, but a good character.

I still can't believe he didn't even make a speech after the mutiny but just stood there as civilians walked pass him. Not the mark of a good leader, imo.

He probably needs some time to collect himself. I'd be stressed out after a long day of blowing up tracking devices, almost being vapourized, mutinies, being blackmailed, spacewalks, boarding actions, alien attacks and more. Hopefully at the beginning of the next episode there will be talks. Hey, it's called "Faith" maybe they'll need a little to iron out a viable arrangement.

hiro
April 10th, 2010, 08:52 AM
i liked especially when he told everyone to go to their quarters at the end, then stood at the door looking at everyones faces. He just oozes power :P.

i'd love the scene ... like i don't fear anyone !


No, I'm dead serious. He's one of the worst leaders on stargate I've ever seen. His inability to communicate with the civilians is one of his biggest flaws. And the scene with James in Air was horrible. So was the confrontation between Rush and O'Neill in O'Neill's office. Leaving Rush on the planet was a grave mistake. He has his (good, even great) moments, but overall he's not fit to lead in this situation. He lacks diplomacy and in this situation this is crucial. Also, always taking Scott or Greer with him on mission is a serious mistake imho.

well we have to admit that the conditions of other leaders in Stargate can't be compared at the same level , we have to remember : a group of people that want to go home and has the fear of live today and die tomorrow it's too difficult to handle

jelgate
April 10th, 2010, 09:11 AM
Young for President.:P

I am liking the character. He has flaws. Big flaws. But I think most of what he does is because he is trying to get the Destiny. Its morally ambigous but it has to be done

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 09:14 AM
I'd say he's not in line with the stoic leaders we've seen, like Hammond, but to call him THE worst, as you did? Come on.

So who was worse? Okay, maybe that's not a fair question. Imagine that you put one of the leaders we've seen previously in this situation, on board Destiny, then who would be a better leader? A protagonist leader of course. Surely Kingsey or Simmons, would be worse, but those were dicks, and just black-white characters.

No, I still think he's the worst leader Destiny can have now.


How so? Captain Kirk always took Spock and "Bones" with him. Well, a couple of ablative redshirts as well, but you get my point :P

:rolleyes:



well we have to admit that the conditions of other leaders in Stargate can't be compared at the same level , we have to remember : a group of people that want to go home and has the fear of live today and die tomorrow it's too difficult to handle

I disagree. O'Neill, Hammond, Elizabeth Weir, Sam Carter can all easily be compared at the same level.

The scene between O'Neill and Young in Air is an excellent example.

hiro
April 10th, 2010, 09:14 AM
Young for President.:P

I prefer Daniel for president ... he can destroy cities like Moscow !

Edit :



I disagree. O'Neill, Hammond, Elizabeth Weir, Sam Carter can all easily be compared at the same level.
The scene between O'Neill and Young in Air is an excellent example.

But O'neill , Hammond and Elizabeth are with a crew that the most of time wants to be in the place they are (it sounds very bad ... possible to my bad English)
and when problems appear in sg1 ( i don't seen all the Atlantis seasons yet) they're a military unit and the only civilian is Daniel

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 09:31 AM
But O'neill , Hammond and Elizabeth are with a crew that the most of time wants to be in the place they are (it sounds very bad ... possible to my bad English)
and when problems appear in sg1 ( i don't seen all the Atlantis seasons yet) they're a military unit and the only civilian is Daniel

Far from, there are loads of time that people didn't want to cooperate and they had to deal with it. The best example is Elizabeth. She was a great leader that way. :) She could always reason with people and consider everyone's opinion. She could get McKay to follow her, I always found that impressive. Imagine Young being in charge there. He'd shoot McKay or restrain him to the brig.

Again, I must disagree.

Also, Hammond had far from an easy command. :) And Danial provided very different opinions from time to time. And they were considered. :)

Replicator Todd
April 10th, 2010, 09:31 AM
Young's alright. :P But far from being my favorite by a longshot.

MattSilver 3k
April 10th, 2010, 09:34 AM
For one, he's the worst military leader we've ever seen on stargate.

It's like I don't even know you anymore... :D

I personally had a hate-on for General Bauer, the slimy *******.

hiro
April 10th, 2010, 09:45 AM
Far from, there are loads of time that people didn't want to cooperate and they had to deal with it. The best example is Elizabeth. She was a great leader that way. :) She could always reason with people and consider everyone's opinion. She could get McKay to follow her, I always found that impressive. Imagine Young being in charge there. He'd shoot McKay or restrain him to the brig.

Again, I must disagree.

Also, Hammond had far from an easy command. :) And Danial provided very different opinions from time to time. And they were considered. :)

as i said i still don't have seen all Atlantis seasons (i'm on it =D), and Elizabeth a civilian witch it make more easy to handle other civilians.
And yes, Hammond don't had an easy command but in sgc we have more soldiers than civilian people ... so ...

carmencatalina
April 10th, 2010, 09:47 AM
I love the character, and if I was on the Destiny, I would be terrified of him. I think he is unstable - that makes him fascinating to watch. I've mentioned this before, but the scene in "Justice" on the planet with the alien ship - he goes from talking to Rush to violence in a split-second, and there is almost no warning.

If you've ever known someone like that in real life - terrifying. But fascinating in a television character!

I also think that Young is changing in front of our eyes. I'm not sure how he will end up - but I'm glued to the series to find out.

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 09:52 AM
It's like I don't even know you anymore... :D

:lol: Sure you do. :D



I personally had a hate-on for General Bauer, the slimy *******.

I said protagonist, not some slimy jackass like Bauer. Besides, we hardly know anything about him. He was in one episode, hardly any character development. Young on the other hand had 12 episodes to prove himself, and it went from mediocre, to bad to even worse in Justice.


and Elizabeth a civilian witch it make more easy to handle other civilians.

Exactly!! :) So Young's current behavior will certainly get him nowhere.



And yes, Hammond don't had an easy command but in sgc we have more soldiers than civilian people ... so ...

So? Hammond still had all the scientist walking around. He showed consideration for different opinions, made intelligent decision and avoided force as much as he could. He showed much more care for all people under his command than Young.

hiro
April 10th, 2010, 11:23 AM
: So? Hammond still had all the scientist walking around. He showed consideration for different opinions, made intelligent decision and avoided force as much as he could. He showed much more care for all people under his command than Young.

well but Hammond usually have a few people who he trust and ask for advice ( Carter, O'neill , Daniel , Dr Fraiser even Teal'c) instead Young has a young in love soldier ( Scott); a very strong and impulsive soldier, in jail before they try to escape ( Green ); a very young civilian ( Eli) ; a soldier , dr witch seems to have something; a brilliant but a little mad scientist (Rush) ....
and he have personal issues unsolved ...

i think that make's a lot different from general Hammond ... but i still recognize that he has been the best general in the base =D ( we'll never forget Hammond from Texas !!!)

Confessor Rahl
April 10th, 2010, 11:32 AM
Young and Rush keep swapping my favorite character positions. I like some of the supports, but most of them either do not affect me at all, or just irritate me (Chloe, Scott on occasion)

Gallienus
April 10th, 2010, 11:48 AM
I really think Young is a lose cannon that is turning out to be a liability on this inter-galactic voyage. Methods and mutinies aside, I would tend to feel like Rush/Wray do, that he's a dangerous, unpredictable man who can not be allowed to lead. The irony is I liked the Young character at first, I thought he served as a good counterpoint to Rush, especially in the early episodes. However, the writers have deemed it necessary to make Young thoroughly unlikable nowadays and I just don't know. I don't think anyone is "fit" to lead on Destiny.

Actually it sort of brings me back to Young's line in Space where he says something like his bad idea is the best of the currently available bad ideas. It might come down to something like that, pick your poison, who do you think is -least- detrimental to the survival of Destiny and her inhabitants. I don't know who that is at present, but it surely isn't Young.

As an aside, I really, -really- hate the name "Destiny", who named this ship anyway? NASA?

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 10th, 2010, 12:10 PM
Gallienus,


I really think Young is a lose cannon that is turning out to be a liability on this inter-galactic voyage. Methods and mutinies aside, I would tend to feel like Rush/Wray do, that he's a dangerous, unpredictable man who can not be allowed to lead. The irony is I liked the Young character at first, I thought he served as a good counterpoint to Rush, especially in the early episodes. However, the writers have deemed it necessary to make Young thoroughly unlikable nowadays and I just don't know. I don't think anyone is "fit" to lead on Destiny.

Actually it sort of brings me back to Young's line in Space where he says something like his bad idea is the best of the currently available bad ideas. It might come down to something like that, pick your poison, who do you think is -least- detrimental to the survival of Destiny and her inhabitants. I don't know who that is at present, but it surely isn't Young.

As an aside, I really, -really- hate the name "Destiny", who named this ship anyway? NASA?

I completely agree. Young is not who I'd want in charge of Destiny, but he is a great Character. I saw some speculation after Justice first aired that Young might be going insane. That would certianly make things interesting.

Lahela
April 10th, 2010, 12:34 PM
I think he's utterly despicable, but Universe wouldn't be Universe without him. :)

jelgate
April 10th, 2010, 12:54 PM
I think he's utterly despicable, but Universe wouldn't be Universe without him. :)

Silly Lahela. She is mixing up characters again:P

*runs away*

Lahela
April 10th, 2010, 01:32 PM
Silly Lahela. She is mixing up characters again:P

*runs away*

*chases Jel with spork*

jelgate
April 10th, 2010, 01:33 PM
*chases Jel with spork*
Can I call you Peg Jr?

Lahela
April 10th, 2010, 01:34 PM
Can I call you Peg Jr?

LOL! I'll tell!

jelgate
April 10th, 2010, 01:36 PM
LOL! I'll tell!

Good luck finding her Peg Jr.:P

Lahela
April 10th, 2010, 01:43 PM
Good luck finding her Peg Jr.:P

*puts on safari suit and pith helmet, pulls out compass and begins trek*

ZGoten
April 10th, 2010, 02:23 PM
Young does a good job.
Comparing him to Hammond is a little vague imo. Hammond was a General, and was well-trained in how to run organisations such as Stargate Command, that was almost only occupied by military personnel. Young on the other hand is a Colonel. He lacks the experience of a General and was also not trained to be in command on a ship with civilians who didn't agree to be under military command in the first place.
Maybe Young isn't good at handling all the scientists and other civilians on board, but he wasn't qualified to do it in the first place, and given the situation he's in, he does a good job.

Rush wanted Young to step aside so that he could do his experiments with the ancient chair. Now he and Wray want him gone, because they think he's dangerous, because of the only mistake he did.
I say Wray and Rush are FAR more dangerous than Young and shouldn't even be considered to be in a leading position...let's see why:

Young's mistakes:
- left Rush, who's motives were and still are unknown, on the planet to die
(that wasn't necessarily a mistake)

Rush's mistakes:
- framed Young for murder
- nearly killed Young and Scott by attempting to gain control over the ship
- basically destroyed the unity of the ship's crew with his and Wray's plan
- didn't tell anyone about the subspace tracking device, that might have all get them killed

Wray's mistakes:
- tried to bust Young for killing Spencer, without any evidence
- basically destroyed the unity of the ship's crew with her's and Rush's plan

Skydiver
April 10th, 2010, 02:36 PM
You guys need to keep this thread centered in and around what Young does in Divided. If not, then it needs to be merged into the general character discussion thread that we have for him.

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 03:53 PM
Jel stop bothering Lahela. :p

Great line, Lahela. :)

"I think he's utterly despicable, but Universe wouldn't be Universe without him."

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 04:08 PM
Great line, Lahela. :)

"I think he's utterly despicable, but Universe wouldn't be Universe without him."

Shouldn't Rush be in the same boat then? Or it stranding 80-odd people billions of light years from home to fulfill your own selfish wants > than stranding one person because you saw them as a threat to the crew?

jelgate
April 10th, 2010, 04:10 PM
Shouldn't Rush be in the same boat then? Or it stranding 80-odd people billions of light years from home to fulfill your own selfish wants > than stranding one person because you saw them as a threat to the crew?

I think that statement could be used to describe quite a quanity of Destiny people. Except Riley because he is awesome

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 04:12 PM
I think that statement could be used to describe quite a quanity of Destiny people. Except Riley because he is awesome

Probably. I can think of a good few though: Eli, Chloe, even Scott. They aren't all inherently bad. :D

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 04:22 PM
Shouldn't Rush be in the same boat then? Or it stranding 80-odd people billions of light years from home to fulfill your own selfish wants > than stranding one person because you saw them as a threat to the crew?

I don't know. Rush isn't exactly the best person, a bit crazy, very stubborn, has a strong own opinion, doesn't play well with others, but except that what you're blaming on Rush, I don't think he has actually endangered anyone. No, TBH, I don't think Rush is despicable. I don't think he's really likeable either. However, without Rush, wouldn't be universe either. :)

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 04:23 PM
I think that statement could be used to describe quite a quanity of Destiny people. Except Riley because he is awesome

What's up with this Riley obsession of yours? And what about Chloe? Did Chloe get jilted?

jelgate
April 10th, 2010, 04:41 PM
What's up with this Riley obsession of yours? And what about Chloe? Did Chloe get jilted?

Chloe's actions in Divided have kind of turn down my thunking. The Riley thing is just because I think its funny

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 04:45 PM
Chloe's actions in Divided have kind of turn down my thunking.

Hear hear! That abduction must have affected her a lot! She was acting coldly towards Eli when she realized he wouldn't side with her and she was being sneaky the whole episode anyway. Definitely more interesting, but less appealing as a character.

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 04:45 PM
Chloe's actions in Divided have kind of turn down my thunking. The Riley thing is just because I think its funny

Poor Chloe. She's been jilted. :S

jelgate
April 10th, 2010, 04:48 PM
Poor Chloe. She's been jilted. :S

Don't tell the devil of red. This would bring much joy to him. Like all character they will probably do something in the future that will make me change my mind. Except Rush because I'm cruel like that

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 05:01 PM
Except Rush because I'm cruel like that

Yeah, that's Lahela's job, isn't it? :D I'll take Chloe then. I find her a very interesting character now, and she's still as hot as ever. Ideal combination :) ;)

skarwolf
April 10th, 2010, 06:23 PM
After the failed coup if I was young I would've put all the conspirators into a cargo bay and space them.

lordofseas
April 10th, 2010, 06:24 PM
After the failed coup if I was young I would've put all the conspirators into a cargo bay and space them.

I do hope you're joking.

skarwolf
April 10th, 2010, 06:26 PM
I do hope you're joking.

Then I'd space you

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 06:32 PM
Then I'd space you

Oh, cute.

Seriously, Young doing that would just have proven what the civilians were concerned about. He had moral high ground (only barely, mind you) in this episode. If he had authorized lethal force then he would've lost nearly everyone. I'd think probably even TJ and maybe Scott.

carmencatalina
April 10th, 2010, 06:33 PM
This love for Riley, while nice and understandable, has to stop. Becker is the man. He cooks! He is handsome!

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 06:37 PM
This love for Riley, while nice and understandable, has to stop. Becker is the man. He cooks! He is handsome!

Where was Becker, anyway? He's military, but I didn't see him among Greer's contingent.

skarwolf
April 10th, 2010, 06:38 PM
Oh, cute.

Seriously, Young doing that would just have proven what the civilians were concerned about. He had moral high ground (only barely, mind you) in this episode. If he had authorized lethal force then he would've lost nearly everyone. I'd think probably even TJ and maybe Scott.

You can't argue when you're in space there's no air. Thats where people who wouldn't follow orders would be.

reddevil18
April 10th, 2010, 06:40 PM
Where was Becker, anyway? He's military, but I didn't see him among Greer's contingent.He was hiding with the alien potatoes. Coward...

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 06:42 PM
You can't argue when you're in space there's no air. Thats where people who wouldn't follow orders would be.

Then I guess it's a good thing you're not in charge.

carmencatalina
April 10th, 2010, 06:43 PM
After the failed coup if I was young I would've put all the conspirators into a cargo bay and space them.

Memo to self - avoid space missions with skarwolf.

skarwolf
April 10th, 2010, 06:51 PM
I know its a show and all but how would regular military react in this situation ?

reddevil18
April 10th, 2010, 06:54 PM
I know its a show and all but how would regular military react in this situation ?Bust a cap in their ass.

jelgate
April 10th, 2010, 06:56 PM
Bust a cap in their ass.

I think we found a job for Greer

Captain Obvious
April 10th, 2010, 06:57 PM
Young is probably my favourite character. It feels like a long time since I've liked a character this much. He's got gravitas, badass moments, the occasional hero moment, and most importantly: He's insane. Well, not really. But his unpredictability and temper just make me like him all the more.

You might want to note "Full Bird Colonel". This is the Top end Colonel under a brigadier general. That's a VERY dangerous individual to attempt to countermand.

the fifth man
April 10th, 2010, 09:26 PM
As this show goes on, I find myself liking Young more and more.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 10th, 2010, 09:29 PM
Captain Obvious,


You might want to note "Full Bird Colonel". This is the Top end Colonel under a brigadier general. That's a VERY dangerous individual to attempt to countermand.

Particularly one who's shown himself to have a dangerously short fuse in serious situations.

hiro
April 11th, 2010, 01:55 AM
Particularly one who's shown himself to have a dangerously short fuse in serious situations.

well he has not kill anybody yet .. did he ?

Lahela
April 11th, 2010, 02:17 AM
well he has not kill anybody yet .. did he ?

Is there really a difference between killing someone and trying to kill someone? Okay, Rush didn't die on the planet, but until "Space", Young assumed he did. Attempted murder is no less ugly than murder, and no less a crime.

MIZA
April 11th, 2010, 02:19 AM
i think Young did what he needed to do , iam totally on his side he should have killed Dr. Rush on that planet , there in a tough situation as it is and he just makes it harder with his crazy death wish

Lahela
April 11th, 2010, 02:21 AM
i think Young did what he needed to do , iam totally on his side he should have killed Dr. Rush on that planet , there in a tough situation as it is and he just makes it harder with his crazy death wish

And under the law in numerous US states, he would be executed for murder.

You can't have it both ways. He's either a criminal or a hero, and murder is illegal.

hiro
April 11th, 2010, 02:26 AM
And under the law in numerous US states, he would be executed for murder.

You can't have it both ways. He's either a criminal or a hero, and murder is illegal.

we are in a galaxy far far away =D but yes he did the wrong thing ... Rush is the person who more knows about the ship .. trying to make Eli learn everything that Rush was working on is stupid ... Eli is a genius but he didn't spend a lot studding the ancients like Rush

harakiri
April 11th, 2010, 03:12 AM
I don't know. Rush isn't exactly the best person, a bit crazy, very stubborn, has a strong own opinion, doesn't play well with others, but except that what you're blaming on Rush, I don't think he has actually endangered anyone. No, TBH, I don't think Rush is despicable. I don't think he's really likeable either. However, without Rush, wouldn't be universe either. :)

Lord Hurin wrote: "Or it stranding 80-odd people billions of light years from home to fulfill your own selfish wants"
Is`nt that endangering anyone? IMHO that is the most dangerous thing that ever have happened so far,but without it we would`nt have had SGU,so go Rush. He gave us Destiny,but thank God we have Young I say. He`s portrayed perfectly,and I have now seen "Divided" 3 or 4 times. (nothing else was on tv,and then I could read here while I had that in the background,so no,am not crazy...a bit maybe...)

For me the only thing Young have done that was very very wrong was leaving Rush,and that was actually 50% Rush`s fault I feel.

When Rush said to Wray that Young was dangerous I actually had to laugh. The only thing he does is lead the military,and that in an excellent way considering the situation they all are in.
As someone here wrote,to compare other leaders from SGA and SG1 is kinda wrong. Most of the people there does not want to be there,while on SG1 it was a team that devoted them self to their job of own choosing. All the people going to Atlantis did choose them self also,right? We can only speculate around how general Hammond or for that matter Jack would have been as a leader in the same situation. I would think an attempt to take over the ship would not be taken lightly by either Jack or Hammond. If Hammond suddenly find him self and the rest of the military locked out from most of the ship he would not accept it at all,and maybe even been more determined to take the ship back,for any costs. But that`s just me. I sure hope the General Hammond I have learned to know would`nt give up the military weapons.
That said,neither General Hammond or Jack would have left Rush on the planet,but Rush would never have done as he did towards Young either. He might however have been put in a prison cell. At least for awhile...

But anyway,"Divided" was an excellent episode to just speculate what other SG-leaders would have done or not.

Nindif
April 11th, 2010, 04:22 AM
For me the only thing Young have done that was very very wrong was leaving Rush,and that was actually 50% Rush`s fault I feel.

And i think this is fundamentally all Wray is really using as a basis for her arguments against Young. If he had not left Rush behind (after a whole episode in Water was dedicated to showing how immoral and unacceptable this was to the military) then Wray and the others wouldn't have any substantial argument to launch an attempted take-over.

however, as we know from the Season 1 Part 2 teaser trailer, Destiny is eventually transfered to the command of a woman. How might this happen?

My prediction: Wray, Young and Rush give their respective explanations to earth using the communication stones regarding the Rush + Young planet abandoning situation. Command considers this alongside the recent revelations about Youngs unprofessional attack on Telford and deems Young unfit for command of Destiny. They order him to transfer command to a female. I dont think this will be Wray, as im sure they will identify her manipulative motives also. So i am going to predict Chloe (for her connection between both sides of the Destiny crew (Military/Civilian)), or Johanson.

I think (and hope) Divided has finally set us up for the resolution of command onboard Destiny. Like many others agree, we like the character of Young and respect him and his good qualities, but he has bad ones also. And for this reason alone, i dont think he should be in command of Destiny exclusively, it needs to be collusive between Young/ someone else (probably Wray).

However, as Johanson explained to Chloe in Divided, Young can't hold a vote every time a quick decision needs to be made, and this is what happens when a joint leadership is established. I would personally love to see Rush put in command of split decisions including Military, and Eli (however unlikely) in charge of community relations with the two working together on all other areas (exploring ship, planets, how to get home etc)

Jper
April 11th, 2010, 04:49 AM
however, as we know from the Season 1 Part 2 teaser trailer, Destiny is eventually transfered to the command of a woman. How might this happen?

Huh? Where did you get that? Which trailer-fragment are you talking about?

Vapor
April 11th, 2010, 05:20 AM
Okay, wow. I honestly had to laugh when I saw someone suggest that Young would have shot McKay or locked him up. I don't see Young as that type of character at all.

Yes, he left Rush on the planet knowing he had "no hope" of escaping it. But it's not like he had no reason at all to do this. Rush has proven a ridiculous number of times that he can and will betray the trust of everyone on Destiny over and over again, intentionally risking their lives even when it's within his power to protect them instead, specifically because of his own selfish desires for discovery and keeping them from returning to Earth when they could have done so at the very start of the series. Even after his return, Rush was willing to let Young and the others in the shuttle potentially die, but at least two other people had to talk him down from it, and he barely stopped.

Rush proved himself to be a massive potential risk. It doesn't justify stranding him, but it certainly is a valid reason for taking serious measures to pacify the threat.

The way some people talk, it's as if they expect Young to whip out a gun and open fire on anyone that disagrees with him, which I just think is an absurd notion. The number of people that have rubbed him the wrong way since the start of the series is amazing, and if he takes action at all, it's only after a huge number of incidents where he interacted with the person in attempts to talk them down from creating problems.

It's not like he can have people arrested and removed from sight forever. He's not a perfect leader by a longshot, but damn, look at what he has to deal with.

norph
April 11th, 2010, 05:54 AM
I disagree. O'Neill, Hammond, Elizabeth Weir, Sam Carter can all easily be compared at the same level.



Don't think we have seen O'Neill, Hammond, Elizabeth Weir, Sam Carter in similar situations. Most of the time, they are in situation where there are clear chain of command with people knowing who is in charge. Put 80+ strangers together with no hope of getting out of it like the situation in Destiny and we have a large scale version of the Survivor reality show :)

Jper
April 11th, 2010, 06:22 AM
Don't think we have seen O'Neill, Hammond, Elizabeth Weir, Sam Carter in similar situations. Most of the time, they are in situation where there are clear chain of command with people knowing who is in charge. Put 80+ strangers together with no hope of getting out of it like the situation in Destiny and we have a large scale version of the Survivor reality show :)

Rightttt.... so all the times the IOA butted in? The russian involvement? The conflict between Daniel and Jack? Teal'c who isn't even part of the military? Elizabeth, being a civilian worked together with Sheppard and McKay as heads of their departments. Elizabeth versus the military, with Elizabeth supported by the president. etc. etc.

Oh no, I disagree, again. Not only about the chain of command, but also on the fact that they haven't been in difficult situations. SG1 was once stuck lightyears from home... And then Jacob was with him, retired military and Tok'ra. No, no and no. We've got more than enough evidence, cannon, whatever you want to call it or whatever you want to pick... to be sure that O'Neill, Hammond, Elizabeth, Sam, etc. were able to communicate, work together etc. Young seems unable. Latest prove is where he insists on firing on the alien ships, only because Rush isn't firing, or doesn't want to. If Rush had been firing on the ships, Young would probably have ordered him to cease firing just to be contrary.

Nindif
April 11th, 2010, 06:50 AM
Jper
Huh? Where did you get that? Which trailer-fragment are you talking about?



http://www.gateworld.net/news/2010/03/watch-the-new-stargate-universe-trailer/
@ 1:04

Having viewed it a couple of times, perhaps it is a clip from a previous Episode. Nevertheless my prediction still remains valid and ill stick by it, Young will not survive the Rush planet incident review when Telford is reintroduced.

jelgate
April 11th, 2010, 08:06 AM
Rightttt.... so all the times the IOA butted in? The russian involvement? The conflict between Daniel and Jack? Teal'c who isn't even part of the military? Elizabeth, being a civilian worked together with Sheppard and McKay as heads of their departments. Elizabeth versus the military, with Elizabeth supported by the president. etc. etc.

Oh no, I disagree, again. Not only about the chain of command, but also on the fact that they haven't been in difficult situations. SG1 was once stuck lightyears from home... And then Jacob was with him, retired military and Tok'ra. No, no and no. We've got more than enough evidence, cannon, whatever you want to call it or whatever you want to pick... to be sure that O'Neill, Hammond, Elizabeth, Sam, etc. were able to communicate, work together etc. Young seems unable. Latest prove is where he insists on firing on the alien ships, only because Rush isn't firing, or doesn't want to. If Rush had been firing on the ships, Young would probably have ordered him to cease firing just to be contrary.
They were stranded away from a short period of time. The difference between all of SG1/SGA was that was a clear chain of command. It was accepted who was reported to who. Their was cooperation between the various people on the base. In SGU their is so much distrust and parnoia that I think it makes Young's job more difficult then Sheppherd or O'Neill ever had

Jper
April 11th, 2010, 08:12 AM
They were stranded away from a short period of time. The difference between all of SG1/SGA was that was a clear chain of command. It was accepted who was reported to who. Their was cooperation between the various people on the base. In SGU their is so much distrust and parnoia that I think it makes Young's job more difficult then Sheppherd or O'Neill ever had

Yeah, but Young's to blame for a big part of the paranoia and distrust. He makes his own job more difficult. Sheppard and O'Neill certainly had distrust and paranoia, but they handled it. Young is just not able to handle it.

jelgate
April 11th, 2010, 08:34 AM
Yeah, but Young's to blame for a big part of the paranoia and distrust. He makes his own job more difficult. Sheppard and O'Neill certainly had distrust and paranoia, but they handled it. Young is just not able to handle it.

I blame Rush more for the parnoia and distrust although Young is more then inncoent. Also I think the level of distrust is significantly higher in SGU

Jper
April 11th, 2010, 09:28 AM
I blame Rush more for the parnoia and distrust although Young is more then inncoent. Also I think the level of distrust is significantly higher in SGU

I disagree, Young's the leader, not Rush. He should just deal with Rush, like O'Neill said. Instead he's holding back information, spreading misinformation, fails to communicate with anyone, and his aggressive behavior isn't helping either. Young should never have slammed Spencer into the wall and threatened to kill, certainly not in front of Franklin. Young should not have left Rush on the planet, and even if he did, he should have shot him, not leave him there to come back to haunt him. Young should never have obscured the evidence of Young taking Spencer's weapon. Young should never have been spying upon everyone on board with Eli's help and the Kino. Mainly Young's aggressive/attacking behavior towards other people, especially Rush, combined with his failure to communicate and work together with the people on the ship and his expectancy that all people on board should blindly follow his orders have led to the creation of the distrustful and paranoiac image everyone on board has of Young. And for a leader this is deadly. Rush isn't.

FallenAngelII
April 11th, 2010, 09:34 AM
Young is strange in that most of the time he makes for a great leader but then he goes and makes some abysmal decisions, most of which are actually crimes (rape, assault, attempted murder). He makes for an interesting character, but, seriously, how many of you would want him to be the man whose decisions your own lives depended on?

jelgate
April 11th, 2010, 09:38 AM
I disagree, Young's the leader, not Rush. He should just deal with Rush, like O'Neill said. Instead he's holding back information, spreading misinformation, fails to communicate with anyone, and his aggressive behavior isn't helping either. Young should never have slammed Spencer into the wall and threatened to kill, certainly not in front of Franklin. Young should not have left Rush on the planet, and even if he did, he should have shot him, not leave him there to come back to haunt him. Young should never have obscured the evidence of Young taking Spencer's weapon. Young should never have been spying upon everyone on board with Eli's help and the Kino. Mainly Young's aggressive/attacking behavior towards other people, especially Rush, combined with his failure to communicate and work together with the people on the ship and his expectancy that all people on board should blindly follow his orders have led to the creation of the distrustful and paranoiac image everyone on board has of Young. And for a leader this is deadly. Rush isn't.

Its hard to just deal with a person who is underminding and challenging your authority at every turn. Under normal circumstance he would have been kicked off the base. But this is hardly more then no. And how do you expect him to treat Spencer? Just let him roam around with a chip on his shoulder. That makes even less sense. Why not about the Kinos? Most bases have security cameras after all. And isn't that aggressivenes a result of the backstabbing and distrust a result of distrust that is created on the Destiny by certain people? Sure its not the best way but Destiny is far from ideal.

FallenAngelII
April 11th, 2010, 09:52 AM
Its hard to just deal with a person who is underminding and challenging your authority at every turn. Under normal circumstance he would have been kicked off the base.I'm sick and tired of this excuse. It does not excuse Young for attempted murder. And he didn't even have the guts to kill off Rush. He left him there to die of starvationand thirst, which is infinitely more cruel than a bullet to the head.

Hey, if he doesn't like Rush and what he's doing, maybe he could try putting him in a holding cell. Or limit his access to the controls... or anything that is legal. Not try to murder him. Young tried to murder Rush, plain and simple. You can make up excuses for why he did it, but at the end of the day, it was still attempted murder.

Confessor Rahl
April 11th, 2010, 10:03 AM
It was still attempted murder.[/QUOTE]

But I justifiable attempted murder :D

Jper
April 11th, 2010, 10:04 AM
Its hard to just deal with a person who is underminding and challenging your authority at every turn. Under normal circumstance he would have been kicked off the base. But this is hardly more then no.

Sure it's hard, I don't deny that, but I find that a way too easy way out. Maybe he should try to listen to Rush? Would be a start. And "undermining and challenging your authority" is pretty vague. Examples? Besides, I think you have to wonder why Rush is doing that. For example, Rush challenges Young's decisions because they are bad decisions. Rush undermines Young's authority 'cause Young is forcing his authority on Rush. There are much better ways for Young to handle Rush than that.



And how do you expect him to treat Spencer? Just let him roam around with a chip on his shoulder. That makes even less sense.

No, but there's a difference between locking him away and slamming him against the wall and threatening to kill. Locking up Spencer was a great decision, but Young released him. No problem, but after that Young surely needed to keep a better eye on him... He should have locked away Spencer when he attacked Franklin, period. Instead he just totally lost control. Understandable as a human, but not acceptable as a leader in that situation.



Why not about the Kinos? Most bases have security cameras after all.

Yeah, but they aren't used to spy on people like Young is doing. Problem also is, that people on base are aware of the security cameras, people on Destiny aren't aware of Young using the Kinos to spy on them.



And isn't that aggressivenes a result of the backstabbing and distrust a result of distrust that is created on the Destiny by certain people? Sure its not the best way but Destiny is far from ideal.

I don't care where there aggressiveness comes from, Young shouldn't let it get the better of him. He can distrust and loath Rush all he wants, but he should work with the man. Same goes for Wray. From the beginning on, he showed behavior that only aggravated things, and then he let things escalate further.

Look, I don't want to all out defend Rush. He's as ambiguous as they come, but there are lots of incidents between Young and Rush where Rush might be a jerk, right or not, but instead of dealing with, Young only further aggravates the situation. Let Rush blow of some steam, listen to him, consider what he is saying... Young should get over it and show his leader capabilities, but I'm afraid he's missing them. He should come out on top.

Also, problem is, Young doesn't know what he wants. He doesn't want to lead, but he doesn't want to give up control. He would much rather be at home, or using the stones to visit his wife. Sure, okay with me. Understandable, but you cannot lead like that.

Anyway, I just think Young misses the qualities needed to be leader on Destiny. And now that his personal vendetta with Rush has reach these proportions, it just isn't possible anymore for him to lead if he continues what he's doing. The conflict between Young and certain other people on the ship has gotten to a point where there's no easy way back, or good way forward. He needs to step aside, and accept at least shared command, but he has been refusing this since day one. He insists on having a military controlled rule, forcing authority, and refuses to open up other decent possibilities. He cannot keep go around like this, and taking decisions on his own ignoring shouts from other people that don't agree with him.

His a great military leader, but not fit in this situation. Like TJ said, doing War is what Young is good at. Leading a group of survivors on Destiny is not. Then why not be open to other people's input?

I really believe that Young as the leader is the one most responsible for the conflict today on Destiny. Sure, Rush is far from enjoyable company. Sure, Wray's power hungry. Sure, the civilians are scared, paranoid. etc. But what has done with it? He has only created more distrust, and paranoia. It is his job to do the opposite, to keep them together and lead them. Not Rush's job, or Wray's job. Young's job.

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 11th, 2010, 10:20 AM
Young is probably my favourite character. It feels like a long time since I've liked a character this much. He's got gravitas, badass moments, the occasional hero moment, and most importantly: He's insane. Well, not really. But his unpredictability and temper just make me like him all the more.

yes, this, all of this, and he's not perfect or all heroicy all the time, which just suits me fine.

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 11th, 2010, 11:55 AM
Is there really a difference between killing someone and trying to kill someone? Okay, Rush didn't die on the planet, but until "Space", Young assumed he did. Attempted murder is no less ugly than murder, and no less a crime.

yes, there's a difference, mostly for the living :D

harakiri
April 11th, 2010, 01:15 PM
Young is strange in that most of the time he makes for a great leader but then he goes and makes some abysmal decisions, most of which are actually crimes (rape, assault, attempted murder). He makes for an interesting character, but, seriously, how many of you would want him to be the man whose decisions your own lives depended on?

Eh.. Rape? When?

FallenAngelII
April 11th, 2010, 01:18 PM
Eh.. Rape? When?
He had sex with Emily (or whatever her name is) using Telford's body. That's tantamount to Rohypnoling someone and having sex with their unconscious body.

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 11th, 2010, 01:31 PM
Young is strange in that most of the time he makes for a great leader but then he goes and makes some abysmal decisions, most of which are actually crimes (rape, assault, attempted murder). He makes for an interesting character, but, seriously, how many of you would want him to be the man whose decisions your own lives depended on?

assault, yes, but he definitely hasn't murdered anyone and rape? really? That simply did not happen. I grant that there are reasons to dislike Young. I may not agree with them but I grant that they are there. He's not perfect. But I think that when you have to start making things up, that's taking it way too far.

Byakuya Truelight
April 11th, 2010, 01:36 PM
It's too bad that Young is just simply a bad person.

Petra
April 11th, 2010, 01:50 PM
For one, he's the worst military leader we've ever seen on stargate. Not to mention his disloyalty to his marriage, i.e. his affair. His aggressive behavior. His closed-mindedness. His short-sighted-ness. His radical behavior. And I could go on, but for now, his lack/inability to be a good leader makes me wonder how he ever made it to be an USAF Colonel.

Does it mean that according to you Landry and Mitchell never existed? Because even with all his faults Young still comes across as much better leader and officer than those two. If they were arrogant, incompetent, ineffective, full of themselves, ignored opinions and advice of specialists and more experienced people and in Cam's case disobeyed orders because they had a bad day and got his team caught, tortured and nearly killed in a "feel-good" show how much worse would have they been on SGU? SG-1 was the type of the show that had good guys as protagonists as a rule; and yet even in such setting the decisions made by Mitchell and Landry had me wondering how they made it to the AF at all, let alone to the SGC.

My point is, if you want to make a claim that Young is a bad leader (which I don't agree with) you have to remember that he's hardly the first one in the franchise. ;)

On a slightly different note, somebody here said that Jack wouldn't have left Rush behind. I'm not so sure. Or more specifically, I think Jack would have simply shot him, or, if he wanted to cover his tracks, killed him in another, less obvious way. People seem to forget that 1) Jack admitted to doing some "damn distasteful things", 2) he had his share of crazy behaviour, like threatening to shoot US Senator in his own house and 3) he was merciless to his enemies (remember his attitude to defenceless Apophis in Serpent's Song? How about his nearly shooting the crazed fanatic who killed Jack's men in Red Sky? Or beating random Jaffa to a bloody pulp in Abyss?). The thing is, these events were portrayed differently because SG-1 was a different type of show. But IMO if O'Neill was on Destiny, portrayed in SGU-like realistic way he'd end up being worse than Young.

Which finally brings me to Young's actions in "Divided". I covered most of them in General Discussion thread, so let me just reiterate that this ep turned me into Young fan. Earlier I liked his character, now I adore him. I love how "Divided" stresses the fact that no dummy can be an AF Colonel. Whatever one may think about Young's sanity there's no denying that the guy is intelligent, smart and good at strategy. He figured out the way out of the sealed off compartment, figured out how important Eli was and how to use him, had the idea to bring in a surgeon to remove the tracking device - all the while not losing his calm and focus even for a second and fighting off enemy ship and mutiny. That's something.

Besides "bad leader" argument kind of fails IMO when confronted with loyalty Young inspires in people who know him a little better. Sure, the military has a chain of command and his subordinates would have to follow him regardless of what they thought, but the mere fact that not one of them hesitates when given order, and Scott and Greer even privately assure him of their loyalty has to count for something. And what about Eli? As a civilian he doesn't have to follow Young's lead or even treat him with respect - and yet he does. He may be naive, but he's not stupid. The fact that he's on Young's side tells me Eli too doesn't see him as a bad leader; or at least as the best possible leader under the circumstances.

harakiri
April 11th, 2010, 01:56 PM
He had sex with Emily (or whatever her name is) using Telford's body. That's tantamount to Rohypnoling someone and having sex with their unconscious body.

Ok. Well,it was`nt the best choice Young have taken,but to call it a "rape" is to take it a bit far. And when we`re on the subject,Telford did`nt take much care with Young`s body either. He did rather want to use his body to try making decision against him to the other military personal on the Destiny. He`s not a part of the people on board Destiny but still wanted to create problems. With Young`s body in bad shape he should`nt go around making it worse and even go against him.

Then he came to the Destiny with a plan to dial earth inside the sun and then act like a coward when it seem to go very wrong. Telford is not any better IMO. And it did`nt seem like he had much problems with being with Young`s wife.

Young is not perfect,but he is not worse than Telford.

Jper
April 11th, 2010, 03:09 PM
He had sex with Emily (or whatever her name is) using Telford's body. That's tantamount to Rohypnoling someone and having sex with their unconscious body.


assault, yes, but he definitely hasn't murdered anyone and rape? really? That simply did not happen. I grant that there are reasons to dislike Young. I may not agree with them but I grant that they are there. He's not perfect. But I think that when you have to start making things up, that's taking it way too far.

Not that again, this thread is still about Young's action in Divided. A broad spectrum is okay to me, but not a rehashing of that again. Go to the Life folder...

_SocraticMethod
April 11th, 2010, 03:53 PM
i liked especially when he told everyone to go to their quarters at the end, then stood at the door looking at everyones faces. He just oozes power :P. He is by far my favourite charchter him and greer and rush. I dislike wrays charchter alot

Yes, I really liked that move as well. But more than having power, I feel like he's a respectable leader. Did he make a mistake with Rush on that planet? Yes. But, like he said, he knows that darn well too! In fact, I've said this in a couple other threads, but I think Young is going to be the last person to forgive himself for that, if indeed he ever does.
Young has always been and continues to be my favourite character.

harakiri
April 11th, 2010, 04:01 PM
Does it mean that according to you Landry and Mitchell never existed? Because even with all his faults Young still comes across as much better leader and officer than those two. If they were arrogant, incompetent, ineffective, full of themselves, ignored opinions and advice of specialists and more experienced people and in Cam's case disobeyed orders because they had a bad day and got his team caught, tortured and nearly killed in a "feel-good" show how much worse would have they been on SGU? SG-1 was the type of the show that had good guys as protagonists as a rule; and yet even in such setting the decisions made by Mitchell and Landry had me wondering how they made it to the AF at all, let alone to the SGC.

My point is, if you want to make a claim that Young is a bad leader (which I don't agree with) you have to remember that he's hardly the first one in the franchise. ;)

On a slightly different note, somebody here said that Jack wouldn't have left Rush behind. I'm not so sure. Or more specifically, I think Jack would have simply shot him, or, if he wanted to cover his tracks, killed him in another, less obvious way. People seem to forget that 1) Jack admitted to doing some "damn distasteful things", 2) he had his share of crazy behaviour, like threatening to shoot US Senator in his own house and 3) he was merciless to his enemies (remember his attitude to defenceless Apophis in Serpent's Song? How about his nearly shooting the crazed fanatic who killed Jack's men in Red Sky? Or beating random Jaffa to a bloody pulp in Abyss?). The thing is, these events were portrayed differently because SG-1 was a different type of show. But IMO if O'Neill was on Destiny, portrayed in SGU-like realistic way he'd end up being worse than Young.

Which finally brings me to Young's actions in "Divided". I covered most of them in General Discussion thread, so let me just reiterate that this ep turned me into Young fan. Earlier I liked his character, now I adore him. I love how "Divided" stresses the fact that no dummy can be an AF Colonel. Whatever one may think about Young's sanity there's no denying that the guy is intelligent, smart and good at strategy. He figured out the way out of the sealed off compartment, figured out how important Eli was and how to use him, had the idea to bring in a surgeon to remove the tracking device - all the while not losing his calm and focus even for a second and fighting off enemy ship and mutiny. That's something.

Besides "bad leader" argument kind of fails IMO when confronted with loyalty Young inspires in people who know him a little better. Sure, the military has a chain of command and his subordinates would have to follow him regardless of what they thought, but the mere fact that not one of them hesitates when given order, and Scott and Greer even privately assure him of their loyalty has to count for something. And what about Eli? As a civilian he doesn't have to follow Young's lead or even treat him with respect - and yet he does. He may be naive, but he's not stupid. The fact that he's on Young's side tells me Eli too doesn't see him as a bad leader; or at least as the best possible leader under the circumstances.

It was me that wrote that Jack probbly would`nt left Rush on the planet,but then again I said it all would be speculations. We cant know how Jack or any other would have been if stuck on the Destiny. I would however think no military leader would accept what the civilians did here.

When it comes to Landry and Mitchell I disagree with you there. I liked them a lot. No Hammond or Jack,but I liked them. But people has different opinions about a lot of things.

Pharaoh Atem
April 11th, 2010, 07:01 PM
anyone else starting to love his charchter more and more? i like the man. I also like rush but he is such a little worm :P
everyone back to your quarters (crew does so)

now that's power

xxxevilgrinxxx
April 11th, 2010, 07:15 PM
yep, they may not completely like having the military in charge but I think they've accepted, at least on some level, that he IS in charge

mere earthling
April 11th, 2010, 08:24 PM
Yes, I really liked that move as well. But more than having power, I feel like he's a respectable leader. Did he make a mistake with Rush on that planet? Yes. But, like he said, he knows that darn well too! In fact, I've said this in a couple other threads, but I think Young is going to be the last person to forgive himself for that, if indeed he ever does.
Young has always been and continues to be my favourite character.

My favorite too, he's not your "cookie cutter" TV military good guy. Good leaders make mistakes and as was said "respectable" leaders admit when they're wrong, even if it's to the person they can't stand the most.

I like that he has to learn and develop with all of them, there is no "savior".

haloplayer
April 11th, 2010, 09:01 PM
Ok. Well,it was`nt the best choice Young have taken,but to call it a "rape" is to take it a bit far. And when we`re on the subject,Telford did`nt take much care with Young`s body either. He did rather want to use his body to try making decision against him to the other military personal on the Destiny. He`s not a part of the people on board Destiny but still wanted to create problems. With Young`s body in bad shape he should`nt go around making it worse and even go against him.

Then he came to the Destiny with a plan to dial earth inside the sun and then act like a coward when it seem to go very wrong. Telford is not any better IMO. And it did`nt seem like he had much problems with being with Young`s wife.

Young is not perfect,but he is not worse than Telford.

Its still Rape.

Rape is having sex with someone's body without there permission. That's exactly what Young did with Telfords body, Young sure is scum.

Some people have the belief that males can not get raped. If Young raped a female the community of gateworld would have been in a uproar. Boy do i hate double standards.

FallenAngelII
April 11th, 2010, 11:09 PM
assault, yes, but he definitely hasn't murdered anyone and rape? really? That simply did not happen. I grant that there are reasons to dislike Young. I may not agree with them but I grant that they are there. He's not perfect. But I think that when you have to start making things up, that's taking it way too far.
1) Attempted murder (Rush)
2) Telford

MIZA
April 11th, 2010, 11:49 PM
we are in a galaxy far far away =D but yes he did the wrong thing ... Rush is the person who more knows about the ship .. trying to make Eli learn everything that Rush was working on is stupid ... Eli is a genius but he didn't spend a lot studding the ancients like Rush




yeah i agree with that , but there not exactly on Earth ?!, however the only way something can survive is if they all want the same things and Dr. Rush does not understand that he is on his own mission, his own path. the only reason Wray conspired with him is because she doesn't like the military and she is i.o.a that is why all those other people followed them, he is just making it so hard for everybody he is possibly depressed and does not really care about his well being , he just needs to die or go away

Jper
April 12th, 2010, 02:18 AM
http://www.gateworld.net/news/2010/03/watch-the-new-stargate-universe-trailer/
@ 1:04

Having viewed it a couple of times, perhaps it is a clip from a previous Episode. Nevertheless my prediction still remains valid and ill stick by it, Young will not survive the Rush planet incident review when Telford is reintroduced.

That is a fragment from Justice. That's where Young tells everyone Wray's in charge. :) You're free to speculate of course, but you provide very little evidence or spoilers to back up your speculation that a female person will be in charge soon, so that far from convinces me.

Petra
April 12th, 2010, 02:24 AM
It was me that wrote that Jack probbly would`nt left Rush on the planet,but then again I said it all would be speculations. We cant know how Jack or any other would have been if stuck on the Destiny. I would however think no military leader would accept what the civilians did here.

Re bolded: that we can agree on.

As to Jack, you are of course right that we can't know for sure, but IMO we can make a few educated guesses based on canon. However I won't get into it further as this thread is not a place for this discussion. I guess I just wanted to point out that SG-1 characters weren't so faultless as people make them out to be, and if Young was SG-1 character I'm sure he'd appear to be a better leader/officer too.


When it comes to Landry and Mitchell I disagree with you there. I liked them a lot. No Hammond or Jack,but I liked them. But people has different opinions about a lot of things.

I went off at quite a tangent there, didn't I? Sorry about that. :o Won't happen again.
It was probably uncalled for but I'm sick of hearing how bad Young is and how great military protagonists were in previous shows when IMO it's clearly not true. And now that i got it off my chest we can go back to discussing how awesome Young was in "Divided" ;)


Its still Rape.

Rape is having sex with someone's body without there permission. That's exactly what Young did with Telfords body, Young sure is scum.

Some people have the belief that males can not get raped. If Young raped a female the community of gateworld would have been in a uproar. Boy do i hate double standards.

Guys, all this rape talk doesn't belong in this particular thread. Can we drop it?

However, because of accusations of having double standards, I'd like to respond;

Spoilered because of OT:

For the record: as a person very sensitive to double standards I can assure that's not the case here. Untill we are told under what conditions and to what extent exactly people agree to have their bodies used it's reasonable to assume that everything's fair game. If you give up all your rights to your body for some period of time you shouldn't complain later on. If you have objections, don't give up your body in the first place. Simple.

Besides how come you are enraged by Telford's alleged rape but are ok with Young almost dying because Telford ignored his grave injuries and medic's opinion? Doesn't it qualify as double standards too?

Jper
April 12th, 2010, 03:16 AM
I just want it noted that I do not appreciate the fact that you are implying that I act like Mitchell or Landry never existed. You seem smart enough to figure out I was just giving examples, and just picked them from the early seasons of SGA or SG1 as SGU is still there as well. If you want to debate about Young's leadership and actions in Divided that's fine, but there's no need to take what I say out of context like this and use that as an argument.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 03:43 AM
It was me that wrote that Jack probbly would`nt left Rush on the planet,but then again I said it all would be speculations. We cant know how Jack or any other would have been if stuck on the Destiny. I would however think no military leader would accept what the civilians did here.
He can if he hears of the reasons for why they did it:
* Autocratic dictatorship
* Attempted murder

Jack might have punched Rush out, but he would never have attempted to murder him. And he would understand that the civilians would be distrustful of Young after such an attempt at Rush's life because Rush proved to be an inconvenience (meanwhile, Greer, someone the civilians think of as an inconvenience, is allowed to roam free and act as one of Young's arms (either the left or the right)).

Petra
April 12th, 2010, 04:10 AM
I just want it noted that I do not appreciate the fact that you are implying that I act like Mitchell or Landry never existed. You seem smart enough to figure out I was just giving examples, and just picked them from the early seasons of SGA or SG1 as SGU is still there as well. If you want to debate about Young's leadership and actions in Divided that's fine, but there's no need to take what I say out of context like this and use that as an argument.

I don't think it was out of context. You wrote that in your opinion Young is the worst leader out of all 3 shows, I wrote that in my opinion that's not true because 2 leaders from a previous show were much worse. I gave examples of their mistakes just like you did with Young. How is that an inappropriate argument? :confused:

Having said that I apologise for implying that you acted like they never existed, that was indeed wrong of me. I also concede that I shouldn't turn Young debate into Young vs SG-1 leaders discussion, as it's OT. For that I also apologise.

My post was against all the folks in general who claim that military officers in previous shows were impeccable, not you specifically. I just used your post because it illustrated well what I was argueing against. So..peace?

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 04:15 AM
I don't think it was out of context. You wrote that in your opinion Young is the worst leader out of all 3 shows, I wrote that in my opinion that's not true because 2 leaders from a previous show were much worse. I gave examples of their mistakes just like you did with Young. How is that an inappropriate argument? :confused:
Landy never tried to, oh, murder someone simply for annoying him. Also, Mitchell was a team leader, not leader of an entire expedition/organization/colony.

Vapor
April 12th, 2010, 04:39 AM
Landy never tried to, oh, murder someone simply for annoying him.

I love how Rush's actions have been reduced in some people's eyes to just merely being annoying, instead of risking the lives of every single human being that stepped through the Stargate at Icarus in "Air," kicking off a massive list of instances where he specifically and deliberately lead others to hurt themselves and admitted that he wasn't going to stop manipulating others and trying to undermine every directive on the ship he didn't agree with, and almost killed Rush, Scott, and Greer, but thankfully was barely stopped at literally the last moment by two other people, and even then, only after it was pointed out to him that other people wouldn't support him anymore if he allowed them to be vaporized while his finger hovered over the button that could have saved them.

Young is by no means a saintly individual. But he did not leave Rush on that planet on a flighty whim just because he was slighty irritated once. Rush was, and still is, a serious danger to the entire ship's crew. And it would be really great if people stopped minimizing Young's decision into something it isn't.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 04:48 AM
I love how Rush's actions have been reduced in some people's eyes to just merely being annoying, instead of risking the lives of every single human being that stepped through the Stargate at Icarus in "Air
Valid.


kicking off a massive list of instances where he specifically and deliberately lead others to hurt themselves
What massive list? Name 3 things.


and admitted that he wasn't going to stop manipulating others and trying to undermine every directive on the ship he didn't agree with
Yes? And this justifies murder now?


and almost killed Rush, Scott, and Greer, but thankfully was barely stopped at literally the last moment by two other people
This was after the fact. And it was not his intention to hurt them. They were just caught in a glitch. It was still after the attempted murder, so you can't use it.

If Young thought that Rush had done so many heinous things, he could've easily confined him to his quarters or a holding cell of some kind. But he didn't because he knew that Rush hadn't committed any actual real crimes that would allow Young to jail him. So he tried to kill him instead... mostly because he had been framed by Rush. Don't pretend like that wasn't at the heart of it. Young can try to delude himself into thinking it was "for the greater good" as much as he wants, but it was always about his dislike of Rush. Because he beat him unconscious and then left him to die of thirst and starvation. That's a deliberate and violent act where you want the victim to suffer first. If he'd simply wanted Rush dead, he would've shot him. But he was too much of a coward/sadist to do that, so he just left him to die... slowly and painfully.


Young is by no means a saintly individual. But he did not leave Rush on that planet on a flighty whim just because he was slighty irritated once.
I never said that.


Rush was, and still is, a serious danger to the entire ship's crew. And it would be really great if people stopped minimizing Young's decision into something it isn't.
And most of the time, he's their only hope.

Jper
April 12th, 2010, 05:02 AM
I don't think it was out of context. You wrote that in your opinion Young is the worst leader out of all 3 shows, I wrote that in my opinion that's not true because 2 leaders from a previous show were much worse. I gave examples of their mistakes just like you did with Young. How is that an inappropriate argument? :confused:

Having said that I apologise for implying that you acted like they never existed, that was indeed wrong of me. I also concede that I shouldn't turn Young debate into Young vs SG-1 leaders discussion, as it's OT. For that I also apologise.

My post was against all the folks in general who claim that military officers in previous shows were impeccable, not you specifically. I just used your post because it illustrated well what I was argueing against. So..peace?

Sure. ;) I should probably apologize, too. I was annoyed at someone else who was comparing Elizabeth to a dictator, AGAIN... not you, but shouldn't have taken it out on you. Maybe Young's not the worst leader out of all three shows, but I didn't want to make a ranking. :) And I wanted some reactions. If I say, Young's a bad leader, I wouldn't have gotten the same reactions. ;)

My point was more that he isn't fit to lead in this situation on Destiny. And he was the worst possible leader in some situations on Destiny. I never wanted to imply that he was dumb (as in not intelligent). He's a great military man, good strategy when dealing with human fighting situations, like taking back Destiny. He's smart and all that, but when it comes to other things like diplomacy, or self-control, or open-mindedness, all qualities a good leader for the Destiny crew should also have, he fails for me. And for me he proved this once again with his actions in Divided. :)

Vapor
April 12th, 2010, 05:14 AM
This was after the fact. And it was not his intention to hurt them. They were just caught in a glitch. It was still after the attempted murder, so you can't use it.

Considering Young knew he was capable of this long before it happened, I think it's a perfectly valid example of the dangerous mindset that Rush has. When it happened is less important than the fact that it did, and that if Rush had been alone in that room, he would not have pressed the button until he was good and ready.


If Young thought that Rush had done so many heinous things, he could've easily confined him to his quarters or a holding cell of some kind. But he didn't because he knew that Rush hadn't committed any actual real crimes that would allow Young to jail him. So he tried to kill him instead... mostly because he had been framed by Rush.

I pretty much agree with most of this statement, actually.

What I don't understand is why some fans seem so unwilling to see that framing someone for murder is not only a serious crime (even though you just suggested that he hadn't committed any) but yet another example of the lengths to which Rush will go to get his way. Which is exactly what I'm talking about.

We agree that Young isn't a perfect guy, and should not have left Rush on the planet. What I don't agree with is this implication that Young is a heartless monster willing to kill anyone that gets on his nerves. Rush is more than that, and it's just amazing to see that his role in all of this is diminished in order to suit the case against Young when they are both clearly at fault in major ways.

Steelbox
April 12th, 2010, 06:12 AM
I don't believe Young to be all that bad. He always cared to the civilians on aboard the ship, Rush is the one that have no caution with the lives of others, and even asked Greer to shot the one in Air, forgot his name.
I would not label him as an dictator, since the one that was appointed as the lider has backed down, yes Telford. An dictator is the one that seizes the power by means of revolution, yes Wray. He just reinstated his in charged status since he is the ranking military officer and unless O'Neill tells him other wise, he will always be the one in charged.
In my opinion he will lockup Wray for good for some episodes, and Rush well since they can frame each other for good, theire status will stay the same.

Jper
April 12th, 2010, 06:37 AM
I don't believe Young to be all that bad. He always cared to the civilians on aboard the ship, Rush is the one that have no caution with the lives of others, and even asked Greer to shot the one in Air, forgot his name.
I would not label him as an dictator, since the one that was appointed as the lider has backed down, yes Telford. An dictator is the one that seizes the power by means of revolution, yes Wray. He just reinstated his in charged status since he is the ranking military officer and unless O'Neill tells him other wise, he will always be the one in charged.
In my opinion he will lockup Wray for good for some episodes, and Rush well since they can frame each other for good, theire status will stay the same.

Dr. Franklin. :)

Lord Hurin
April 12th, 2010, 07:50 AM
Dr. Franklin. :)

Yeah, poor guy :(

He whined a lot though. Right from the get go. Not that I'm saying that makes anything that happened to him ok. I just find it hard to like him as a character.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 07:59 AM
Considering Young knew he was capable of this long before it happened, I think it's a perfectly valid example of the dangerous mindset that Rush has. When it happened is less important than the fact that it did, and that if Rush had been alone in that room, he would not have pressed the button until he was good and ready.
Rush never intended for them to get hurt. He merely considered them an acceptable sacrifice. It's not the same thing as willfully killing someone, which Young did.


What I don't understand is why some fans seem so unwilling to see that framing someone for murder is not only a serious crime (even though you just suggested that he hadn't committed any) but yet another example of the lengths to which Rush will go to get his way. Which is exactly what I'm talking about.
It's a serious crime, but it's far less serious than actually committing murder. Rush thought Young was unfit for command. So he framed him for a crime. Young goes on to prove how fit for command he is by committing that very crime. Ironic, much?

In an ideal world, neither man would be in command of anything.


We agree that Young isn't a perfect guy, and should not have left Rush on the planet. What I don't agree with is this implication that Young is a heartless monster willing to kill anyone that gets on his nerves.
No. But he clearly has the capacity to kill someone simply for being a big enough thorn in his side. Don't deny it. If he thought he had any legit reasons to "punish" Rush, he would've locked Rush up or simply limited his access to the ship. Or he would've actually told someone, anyone the truth. But he knew that what he did was wrong and unjustifiable, so he lied to everyone.


Rush is more than that, and it's just amazing to see that his role in all of this is diminished in order to suit the case against Young when they are both clearly at fault in major ways.
Rush is selfish. Young is violent. They're volatile in different ways. The thing is that Rush's main intention is never to inflict harm on someone else. His intention is always rather benign. He just doesn't care if people get hurt in the process. It is not the same thing.

Young has willfully committed three separate violent crimes within the first 10 episodes of the series alone:
* Rape (using Telford's body to have sex with Emily, which is tantamount to Rohypnoling someone and then having sex with their unconscious body)
* Aggravated assault (also on Telford)
* Attempted murder (on Rush. And he didn't even have the guts to actually kill him. He left Rush behind to die of thirst and starvation, which is a horrible way to go. I don't know if he was simply cowardly, wanted Rush to suffer or quite possibly both)

So we have Rush who has gotten people hurt in the past in the name of the "Greater Good" and Young who simply hurts people when he feels like it (it's a simplification, but, hey, rape, assault and covered up attempted murder!).

Jper
April 12th, 2010, 07:59 AM
Yeah, poor guy :(

He whined a lot though. Right from the get go. Not that I'm saying that makes anything that happened to him ok. I just find it hard to like him as a character.

He got to get some credit for sitting in the chair though. That was a very dumb move, but heroic. :) Took a lot of courage to do that.

carmencatalina
April 12th, 2010, 08:05 AM
He got to get some credit for sitting in the chair though. That was a very dumb move, but heroic. :) Took a lot of courage to do that.

I really feel that Franklin was getting to the end of his rope - he had been shot, and in his "psych eval" with TJ, sounded really freaked out. Not that he wasn't brave to sit in the chair, but I think it was also an act of desperation.

Edited to add: And this goes back to my issues with Young. He was so wanting to blame Rush for the incident with Franklin, that he completely overlooks the fact that a member of the party (a civilian) was that desperate to find a way home. He can't see the forest for the big Rush-shaped-trees right in front of him.

Lord Hurin
April 12th, 2010, 08:10 AM
I really feel that Franklin was getting to the end of his rope - he had been shot, and in his "psych eval" with TJ, sounded really freaked out. Not that he wasn't brave to sit in the chair, but I think it was also an act of desperation.

Edited to add: And this goes back to my issues with Young. He was so wanting to blame Rush for the incident with Franklin, that he completely overlooks the fact that a member of the party (a civilian) was that desperate to find a way home. He can't see the forest for the big Rush-shaped-trees right in front of him.

Oh, absolutely. I'll be kinda pissed if his sitting in the chair doesn't lead to anything. Kinda like Riley; he's "on the mend" but where the hell is he?!

hiro
April 12th, 2010, 08:37 AM
. Kinda like Riley; he's "on the mend" but where the hell is he?!

Sure he had find the Pantry (with ancient chocolate ) and it's still there!

Vapor
April 12th, 2010, 09:01 AM
No. But he clearly has the capacity to kill someone simply for being a big enough thorn in his side. Don't deny it. If he thought he had any legit reasons to "punish" Rush, he would've locked Rush up or simply limited his access to the ship. Or he would've actually told someone, anyone the truth. But he knew that what he did was wrong and unjustifiable, so he lied to everyone.

I'm sorry, but the way you respond to some of these excerpts, it sounds as if you really didn't understand what I said to begin with.

Don't deny what exactly? I specifically responded to the exact point you're now asking me not to deny before you even said that. You may enjoy repeating yourself multiple times within the same conversation, but I don't. Sorry.

And, for the record, Young is not the only one who witheld information about his criminal activity aboard the ship, so please let's not even go there.

The problem I see here is that you've somehow turned the corner from debating what I actually said, to making this a "Which one is more despicable" debate, which was never my point. Anyone who reads my last couple posts in this thread wouldn't need to reiterate to me that Young isn't always a nice guy, because they would know that I said that myself.

My point wasn't that Young is better than Rush. It was that Rush is far from innocent, and it makes little sense to assume that Young would treat any random person on the Destiny, who has done nothing wrong at all, the same way that he treated Rush on the planet.

Painting a picture of him as this horrific monster who would kill anyone that looks at him funny is just asinine in my view.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 09:08 AM
And, for the record, Young is not the only one who witheld information about his criminal activity aboard the ship, so please let's not even go there.
And I denied this when?


The problem I see here is that you've somehow turned the corner from debating what I actually said, to making this a "Which one is more despicable" debate, which was never my point. Anyone who reads my last couple posts in this thread wouldn't need to reiterate to me that Young isn't always a nice guy, because they would know that I said that myself.
And I claimed this when?


My point wasn't that Young is better than Rush. It was that Rush is far from innocent, and it makes little sense to assume that Young would treat any random person on the Destiny, who has done nothing wrong at all, the same way that he treated Rush on the planet.
And I denied this when?


Painting a picture of him as this horrific monster who would kill anyone that looks at him funny is just asinine in my view.
And I did this when?

Seriously, I never did/said the things you claim I did/said. I said some very specific things, none of which fits into the things you just mentioned. It seems you're confusing me with a bunch of other people.

Vapor
April 12th, 2010, 09:20 AM
Wow.

I'm just gonna end my part in this discussion now, because I frankly don't think you're paying nearly as much attention to what I'm actually saying as you are simply looking for the next opportunity to keep talking.

I hope you enjoy the rest of the show.

MIZA
April 12th, 2010, 05:22 PM
I don't believe Young to be all that bad. He always cared to the civilians on aboard the ship, Rush is the one that have no caution with the lives of others, and even asked Greer to shot the one in Air, forgot his name.
I would not label him as an dictator, since the one that was appointed as the lider has backed down, yes Telford. An dictator is the one that seizes the power by means of revolution, yes Wray. He just reinstated his in charged status since he is the ranking military officer and unless O'Neill tells him other wise, he will always be the one in charged.
In my opinion he will lockup Wray for good for some episodes, and Rush well since they can frame each other for good, theire status will stay the same.

oh yes i agree with you , Telford definitely has a problem, where as what he is doing with Young's wife anyway, well i am sure she also the problem for letting this man come into their marriage :S, but as the ship Dr. Rush is making an already difficult situation worse they should just get rid on him

i believen Young is doing the best that he can and that he is a great leader !