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haloplayer
April 9th, 2010, 09:04 PM
Wow Greer is some guy who thinks he is all that.

So because some civilian is a thorn in the military side....that makes it ok to ditch him on a planet to die? That's Greer's thinking, with Rush. Greer's sense of right or wrong is twisted. I expected more from an American soldier.

Also that Female marine (forget her name) walks into the room and beats up a civilian, even though the civilian posed no threat to her or the military. He wasn't even attacking.

The civilians did have some good points there.

Replicator Todd
April 9th, 2010, 09:06 PM
IMO Civilians > Military.

Pharaoh Atem
April 9th, 2010, 09:06 PM
greer don't take **** from no one plan and simple. the military leads the destiny and the civilians were uprising. so in a way think of it as martial law

Cory Holmes
April 9th, 2010, 09:07 PM
Also, Greer is probably still pissed off at how Young was framed for Spencer's murder. He was ready to take the fight to the civvies then, and he still holds Young above all others on that ship. His actions weren't surprising at all.

Iffy
April 9th, 2010, 09:10 PM
Um ship with mutineers is never good. Killing them all was one option of many.

Lord Hurin
April 9th, 2010, 09:10 PM
So because some civilian is a thorn in the military side....that makes it ok to ditch him on a planet to die? That's Greer's thinking, with Rush. Greer's sense of right or wrong is twisted. I expected more from an American soldier.

Well, Greer's feelings about Rush are well-known. He pretty clearly blames Rush for stranding everyone on Destiny in the first place, and I think he's put two and two together and figured out that Rush was the one who framed Young. In military terms, that's mutiny right there and generally punishable by imprisonment in ideal circumstances. Not that it makes Greer right though. I just understand his line of thought.


Also that Female marine (forget her name) walks into the room and beats up a civilian, even though the civilian posed no threat to her or the military. He wasn't even attacking.

That would be James, and I agree. The civilian wasn't sitting down so she smacked him? Harsh, for sure. I don't know if I'd say that she "beat him up" though, it looked to me like she smacked him, he went down and that was the end of it.


The civilians did have some good points there.

I found myself thinking the same thing, and I always thought of myself as being on the military's "side." The way they went about things though was all wrong.

Coronach
April 9th, 2010, 09:14 PM
Wow Greer is some guy who thinks he is all that.

So because some civilian is a thorn in the military side....that makes it ok to ditch him on a planet to die? That's Greer's thinking, with Rush. Greer's sense of right or wrong is twisted. I expected more from an American soldier.

Also that Female marine (forget her name) walks into the room and beats up a civilian, even though the civilian posed no threat to her or the military. He wasn't even attacking.

The civilians did have some good points there.

I pretty much agree. I wasn't so off-put by the way Greer acted to things, as it seemed to fit his characterization pretty well. However, I was a little confused by Lt. James rifle-butting the unarmed civilian like that. Maybe it was for dramatic effect by the writers or whatever, but it seemed a bit strange I guess as the civilian posed no threat. The same could be said about the civilians that Greer beat up (the ones they passed in the hallway), though I won't elaborate as we cannot be sure if they were some of the few with weapons or not.

This isn't meant to be anti-military in any sense, but I found myself siding with the civilians almost entirely in this episode, and I found it very hard to relate to the way the military handled things, especially the way Young dismissed everyone at the end...telling them to go to their rooms. He sort of redeemed himself though in making a gesture to Wray that he would try and speak with her about this.

Greer said it all, in that it's not over.

Coronach
April 9th, 2010, 09:15 PM
Um ship with mutineers is never good. Killing them all was one option of many.

Which would have been a dreadful idea, as almost all of the scientists or science-minded people (barring perhaps Eli) were sided with the civilians. Kill them all, and the military would not survive.

I truly think that both sides are seriously forgetting how much they need each other to survive.

The Shrike
April 9th, 2010, 09:17 PM
The civilians should impose work to rule from this point forward. When the ships systems start malfunctioning, they should just tell Greer and James to bash it with the butts of their guns until it's fixed.

Lord Hurin
April 9th, 2010, 09:17 PM
The same could be said about the civilians that Greer beat up (the ones they passed in the hallway), though I won't elaborate as we cannot be sure if they were some of the few with weapons or not.

Those guys seemed to be guarding the door leading to the locked-out part of the ship where the military was. I'd say it's safe to assume they were armed for such duties.

Coronach
April 9th, 2010, 09:18 PM
Those guys seemed to be guarding the door leading to the locked-out part of the ship where the military was. I'd say it's safe to assume they were armed for such duties.

Ah, good point. I totally forgot that, and you are probably right. At the very least, he would have recognized that those placed as "guards" are certainly not innocent bystanders.

Daro
April 9th, 2010, 09:31 PM
I was also surprised at the way James acted. I've been pretty neutral on her so far, as she hasn't had much development, but she certainly scored negative points with me for bashing the hell out of an unarmed civilian.

I have never liked Greer. From the start, I have wondered often why he's allowed to have a gun at all. My mother made the observation tonight that he is, essentially, Young's bulldog. The nasty piece of work to use if things get dicey.
Whether Rush and Wray are mutineers or not is debatable, since neither are military, and it's debatable whether the entire situation qualifies as a military op in the first place. But either way, Greer is too eager to met out vigilante justice, and takes far too much pleasure in violence. When Young has someone like that hoo-ahing and busting people up left and right whenever he gets the itch, I can't imagine Rush, Wray, or anyone on their side is going to view the soldiers as anything but a threat.

Commander Zelix
April 9th, 2010, 09:36 PM
Wow Greer is some guy who thinks he is all that.

So because some civilian is a thorn in the military side....that makes it ok to ditch him on a planet to die? That's Greer's thinking, with Rush.
Don't push it. Rush is the only reason why everybody is stuck on the Destiny far from their family. If he wasn't so indispensable because of his scientific knowledge I would have locked him up the minute I got on the Destiny. I find that unbelievable the civilians would back him up now. Oh well....

Daro
April 9th, 2010, 09:52 PM
Don't push it. Rush is the only reason why everybody is stuck on the Destiny far from their family. If he wasn't so indispensable because of his scientific knowledge I would have locked him up the minute I got on the Destiny. I find that unbelievable the civilians would back him up now. Oh well....

I don't think anyone is forgetting that Rush made the decision to force them there. However, everyone knows that he didn't know they were all gonna be stuck (though, it's safe to assume, he didn't much care either.)
The fact of the matter is that the man in charge, Col. Young, did something that betrayed everyone's trust in him as a fair and just leader. He crossed a line. And given that the civilians don't know for sure that Rush framed the Colonel in 'Justice,' plus the fact that Rush risked his life to save Chloe and has saved the ship from destruction several times, it's easy to see why they made the choice they did. Recent events probably shaped their view of him more than the past one. I'd get pretty bored if the show forever harped on the fact that Rush is to blame for the predicament, and I'd find it unrealistic if every character did that. Moving past it will allow Rush's character to grow.

s09119
April 9th, 2010, 10:04 PM
I was also surprised at the way James acted. I've been pretty neutral on her so far, as she hasn't had much development, but she certainly scored negative points with me for bashing the hell out of an unarmed civilian.

I have never liked Greer. From the start, I have wondered often why he's allowed to have a gun at all. My mother made the observation tonight that he is, essentially, Young's bulldog. The nasty piece of work to use if things get dicey.
Whether Rush and Wray are mutineers or not is debatable, since neither are military, and it's debatable whether the entire situation qualifies as a military op in the first place. But either way, Greer is too eager to met out vigilante justice, and takes far too much pleasure in violence. When Young has someone like that hoo-ahing and busting people up left and right whenever he gets the itch, I can't imagine Rush, Wray, or anyone on their side is going to view the soldiers as anything but a threat.

I thought she hit the one that had a pistol, though I may be wrong.

Daro
April 9th, 2010, 10:13 PM
Nope, she didn't. I think that one was one of the ones that got laid out in the hallway by Greer. I watched the episode twice to make sure I caught that detail, among others. He just didn't obey fast enough for her. Had his hands in the air and everything, I believe.

Loheat
April 9th, 2010, 10:22 PM
The military people were just following orders. I dont blame James for what she did because she is a soldier (airwoman?) and thats what they do. Like TJ said its one occasion where thats pretty close to what they trained for

Daro
April 9th, 2010, 10:25 PM
I blame her because her superior officer ordered her, right before they went into the room, not to go overboard on the civvies. "We have to live with these people tomorrow," does not mean "So bash their noses in. They'll think it's hilarious and we can all laugh about it tomorrow morning."

Nemises
April 9th, 2010, 10:26 PM
The military came out as a bunch of savages with guns.

Coronach
April 9th, 2010, 10:29 PM
The military came out as a bunch of savages with guns.

I am inclined to agree, at least partially. Especially telling was how Young handled the civilians at the end. He could have used that moment to directly acknowledge their concerns and promise (for all of them to hear) that he would work with them to make life aboard the ship a bit better. Instead, he just sent them to their rooms (quite literally).

It really just reaffirmed the civilians position, though he did at least agree with Wray (in passing) that they would need to try and work something out...so I guess that's something.

Blistna
April 9th, 2010, 10:34 PM
Wow Greer is some guy who thinks he is all that.

So because some civilian is a thorn in the military side....that makes it ok to ditch him on a planet to die? That's Greer's thinking, with Rush. Greer's sense of right or wrong is twisted. I expected more from an American soldier.

Also that Female marine (forget her name) walks into the room and beats up a civilian, even though the civilian posed no threat to her or the military. He wasn't even attacking.

The civilians did have some good points there.

Greer has problems, but Chloe once said she wanted Rush dead, other have hinted that it would be better if he was dead. So he isn't alone in that thought.

Lt. James attacking you have a point.

And yes, the military is taking things too far. But the citizens acted incorrectly. This was wrong timing, this was the wrong way to do things. I don't know what was right, maybe there was no right way, but now things will be worse.

Daro
April 9th, 2010, 10:49 PM
I disagree that things will be worse for Rush and Wray's civilian uprising. I mean, yes, initially, it'll be rough going. But now all the animosity that's been building over the first eleven episodes has put all the concerns out in the open. Eventually, I think that the ship will be able to iron out some of the problems and the crew will move forward together, rather than as two opposite camps.
I won't ever agree that people who fight back against authority are necessarily wrong. The plan would have probably worked a lot better if Rush hadn't shown compassion at the worst time for him to start doing so. The fact that he compromised everything, and that Wray too was willing to do that, showed that they genuinely don't mean harm. Both probably at least feared that, if Young took back the ship, they'd be airlocked, or at least locked up.
Voicing their concerns would have been the way to go, but you can't blame them for assuming that they wouldn't be listened to. After all, every complaint they've made up until now has been answered with Greer shoving a gun in their faces. Or kicking them down a sand dune. Or stepping up on them threateningly. The list goes on and on. Young knew there was a problem and answered with brute force and intimidation. I don't think the civvies really had a better option, at the end of the day. Being on Destiny is miserable enough. Being there with a bunch of trigger happy soldiers and a military dictator who tosses folks off the ship when he loses his temper was likely unbearable.

dacooker
April 9th, 2010, 11:44 PM
Ya you could say the military was shocking. They let untrained, power hungry, whining civilians take control of the ship and put all their lives in jeopardy. I wish Greer gave each of them the butt end of his rifle.

I mean what type of tool thinks a civilian should lead the expedition like a government, when it's a military operation to begin with.

dacooker
April 9th, 2010, 11:50 PM
Wow Greer is some guy who thinks he is all that.


That's because he is.

Avenger
April 9th, 2010, 11:51 PM
I think Greer and James smacking people around was more for shock factor more than anything else. I wouldn't be surprised if they had orders not to shoot anyone from Young and that smacking a couple of people was used for a shock and awe effect to keep everyone else from getting any ideas about acting up. Granted, it might have been more than was necessary, but it could very well have prevented injury to more people.

Commander Zelix
April 9th, 2010, 11:53 PM
I mean what type of tool thinks a civilian should lead the expedition like a government, when it's a military operation to begin with.
And the episode before there was an Alien attack on the ship. Making it a military operation more than ever.

Tabula Rasa
April 9th, 2010, 11:55 PM
Um ship with mutineers is never good. Killing them all was one option of many.

Should have cut the whole mutiny off at its head by putting a bullet into Wray's brain, in front of the other civilians. Would have removed the main instigator of the mutiny and would have scared the rest of the civilians into line.

asdf1239
April 9th, 2010, 11:57 PM
fortunately the lucian alliance will do things better

Daro
April 10th, 2010, 12:17 AM
Your suggestion is just dandy. In fact, shoot 'em all. After all, they have Eli on their side. He's totally going to be able to make up for the loss of the ship's expert on ancient technology, along with every other scientist on the ship. :P
Frankly, I'd be very afraid for Young if he'd executed Wray. Rush hasn't been pushed far enough to make attempts on Young's life yet, but if he wanted to, I'm sure he'd at least cause a real problem rather than his latest, ineffecutal, peaceful attempts.

In all seriousness, I don't want to watch a show where the main focus is the civilians getting their brains blown out by the military. Both factions have to work together. To do that, they both have to listen. I think Young is listening now.

Tabula Rasa
April 10th, 2010, 12:23 AM
Oh I dont know, I think its a great way to emphasise your point, namely that your in control of the vessel and will not tollerate attempts to subvert your authourity. Wray would have been the ideal candidate to stand trial for mutiny and then be sumarily executed, come on, its not like she has any value as a member of the crew, she's not a scientist, she's not military, she's not even breeding stock. She's a liability that should be dealt with. BANG! Problem solved.

dacooker
April 10th, 2010, 12:45 AM
fortunately the lucian alliance will do things better

well that's just it, and it's whats got Brian Smith all pissed.
The LA taking the Destiny with force, and taking control. That and Young is the spy.

Gollumpus
April 10th, 2010, 12:56 AM
BANG! Problem solved.

Making martyrs complicates your life. :P

regards,
G.

Daro
April 10th, 2010, 01:04 AM
Precisely. Dead Wray or Dead Rush would be remembered by the civilians as heroes. Wray certainly isn't that, and Rush, much as I like him, is only a hero once in a while.

Tuvok
April 10th, 2010, 01:16 AM
Don't push it. Rush is the only reason why everybody is stuck on the Destiny far from their family. If he wasn't so indispensable because of his scientific knowledge I would have locked him up the minute I got on the Destiny. I find that unbelievable the civilians would back him up now. Oh well....

Total agreement with above.

I enjoy Rush. He's dynamic and polarizing. But that ****-eating grin in the Pilot when Young confronted him about not dialing the Alpha Site and instead taking his chance to reach Destiny. Condemning everyone Civies and Military alike in their situation. Marks him as the last guy to trust and first guy to shoot if you had to.

That being said , the show would be twenty to twentyfive percent less awesome without him.

As for James, since her last scene in Space I get the feeling she is on an emotional razor edge. The Military are her family now. Out in the big black all alone they depend on her and she them. And woe to anyone who threatens to take that from her.

As for Greer he do what he do. He's practical, and focused. See threat, end threat. He may be a very likable fellow but you threaten the pack or the Alpha-Wolf he will rip out your threat. He's a good Beta that way.

:o

asdf1239
April 10th, 2010, 01:42 AM
well that's just it, and it's whats got Brian Smith all pissed.

whos brian smith


The LA taking the Destiny with force, and taking control. That and Young is the spy.

well, the "crew" will be the better for it
then...fly it into the pegasus galaxy and continue the atlantis arc

Tuvok
April 10th, 2010, 01:46 AM
whos brian smith


well, the "crew" will be the better for it
then...fly it into the pegasus galaxy and continue the atlantis arc

Atlantis had an arch?

Hehe.

Man I can't wait for next week. Awkward much?

This ship , this show, this crew, have my ''Undivided"" attention.

:jonas:

janus4ever
April 10th, 2010, 01:49 AM
Soldiers have their ranking and hierarchy , but their hierarchical power should not be effective on civilians on a society of modern people...

Soldiers tend to rank all ppl including civilians , of course they put civilians on the lowest rank. (actually a rank between a private and a chimp). That's why humanity has chosen democracy and civilization has been evolving incredibly fast since the last 100 years.

Tabula Rasa
April 10th, 2010, 01:55 AM
Democracy is a falacy. Its just an ideal that those in power use to keep those who dont have power happy in their 'safe' little 'democratic' world.

The Industrial Revolution was spawned from a monarchy, not a democracy.

asdf1239
April 10th, 2010, 01:55 AM
Atlantis had an arch?

yep

would you like to start an sga vs sgu battle here?

wargrafix
April 10th, 2010, 02:26 AM
The military came out as a bunch of savages with guns.

That is exactly what they were. Actually seeing the military in real life...and that's pretty much how they act. Not really impressive.

Khentkawes
April 10th, 2010, 02:26 AM
This isn't meant to be anti-military in any sense, but I found myself siding with the civilians almost entirely in this episode, and I found it very hard to relate to the way the military handled things, especially the way Young dismissed everyone at the end...telling them to go to their rooms. He sort of redeemed himself though in making a gesture to Wray that he would try and speak with her about this.

I agree. I was hoping that the civilians would just stay where they were instead of going to their rooms when Young ordered them to. Sort of as an act of non-violent protest against the military attitude.

Maybe Young was trying to show that he didn't think they needed to be guarded like prisoners (as Greer had suggested) but it sounded too dismissive. They're civilians, not children, and Young can't just dismiss them whenever he wants too. It sounds patronizing and is not a good way to foster trust and cooperation. Besides that... HELLO! Half of the crew just revolted and the other half forcibly overthrew them! Shouldn't someone address the issue instead of sending everyone to their rooms and pretending it never happened? If Young neglects to address these events, that would be a very bad leadership decision, IMO.



As for James, since her last scene in Space I get the feeling she is on an emotional razor edge. The Military are her family now. Out in the big black all alone they depend on her and she them. And woe to anyone who threatens to take that from her.

Yeah, I think that's why I'm giving her a little bit of leeway (that and I didn't get a good look at what she did in the episode... will have to re-watch later). But Greer... well, I need to see some character development from him pretty soon to redeem him in my eyes. I liked him early on, but between his actions in Water and now in Divided, I haven't been impressed. :(

pipi
April 10th, 2010, 02:33 AM
I expected more from an American soldier.

You don't watch NCIS do you? Soldiers can commit crimes too and do all sorts of questionable stuff. They are only human. And he's a Jarhead so no high expectations of high morals there.




Also that Female marine (forget her name) walks into the room and beats up a civilian, even though the civilian posed no threat to her or the military. He wasn't even attacking.

The civilians did have some good points there.
Good! Let those emotions out. It's way better than crying. Watch Zombie Land, you need to hit stuff every now and then to relief stress given that there ain't much alternatives. No gutter talk thanks...

Lahela
April 10th, 2010, 02:36 AM
I agree. I was hoping that the civilians would just stay where they were instead of going to their rooms when Young ordered them to. Sort of as an act of non-violent protest against the military attitude.


I was thinking exactly the same thing when I was watching it. I don't know if the writers meant it to show the civilians bowing to military rule, or that Young had effectively exercised his authority or what, but it felt wrong to me.

gotthammer
April 10th, 2010, 02:55 AM
Also that Female marine (forget her name) walks into the room and beats up a civilian, even though the civilian posed no threat to her or the military. He wasn't even attacking.



Nope. He wasn't attacking, but he did seem to continue to approach after they've been told to move back or drop to the ground. I mean, isn't what James did a similar procedure w/ police? (tho' a bit harsher...then again, she was 'covering' more people)
I'm not military/police, but I know that I wouldn't want anyone to approach me if I were carrying a weapon. (possible loss of weapon. also, there's that whole 'failure to stop' 'problem'. gotta assume that said 'civilian' may have a concealed weapon or can disable you at close range, etc.)

That said...I was kinda hoping (tho' I kinda knew before the episode ended that it was a vain hope) that Rush would 'win'. :D
I like the military in SGU, but I think I'm starting to dislike Young...

reddevil18
April 10th, 2010, 03:26 AM
You know what shocked me? That the Airman didn't just blow Wray's head off right then and there. End the whole thing. Damn *****. Yes, I'm a violent person and I think civilians should squirm under the military's mighty boot while on that damn ship, inr constant danger.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 03:37 AM
The military acted in a perfectly restrained manner. Young might need to be removed but he should be done by a legitimate authority, ie an order from O'Neill from Homeworld Command, not a bunch of mutinous civilians. Greer actually showed some of the most restraint, he went to the mess room with an unchambered weapon and only cocked it when Volker wouldn't sit down. As for James hitting a civilian, well in a situation like that you need to get everyone under control and on the floor, better that someone has a tap on the head rather than a bullet in the chest because someone got ideas.

luckylad
April 10th, 2010, 04:38 AM
i disagree entirely, the civilians went to far and were trying to blackmail the military into standing down. I wouldnt expect anything less from a soldier.

And on the female soldier using force against someone quickly stops others from trying any heroics

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 04:57 AM
Just to add, do certain people here have slight memory problems or are they just new to Stargate? Because the military being shown as less than perfect is nothing new to stargate, SG1 and SGA both had officers who screwed up, made mistakes, walked all over civilians without comprise or discussion and in the case of Colonel Maybourne, Simmons, Makepeace and a few others several were shown to be downright treasonous. Stargate has always shown the military as just ordinary people doing a job, some of those people are heroes, some aren't. It's never been propaganda and that as someone who is associated with the military this was one of the reasons I was attracted to it.

gotthammer
April 10th, 2010, 05:02 AM
Colonel Maybourne
He may have been a traitor...but he was KING! :lol:

Gotta agree w/ the rest of the post. :D

Arica15
April 10th, 2010, 05:07 AM
I think one of the big things is that people seem to assume that a soldier really is just a robot, no they are people, highly trained people who know a lot of different ways to kill you, but still just people. Putting on a unifrom does not make you superhuman, nor does it imbue anyone with the patience of a saint. In a chaotic situation soldiers will react how they've been trained to react, to try and be ordered, to try and make things make sense, and a rigid structure of command makes sense to them Did they handle the face off well? probably not, but I wonder how many courses they ran on this particular scenario back on the military bases (I'm guessing it didn't come up much.)

Yes the civilians are having a tough time, but so are the soldiers, so far we've had a lot of civilian - and soldier whining - Young behaves like a bully, Rush is a lunatic and Wray is the living embodiement of the Peter principle.

i think to me what the show was really saying is not that the poor wittle civilians are being bullied by the military, but that they are all over their heads. And apart from anything else among the collective genius's on the civilian side, why on earth did they think attacking a bunch of highly trained soldiers who are probably all on the bunch of cracking up was likely to end up in anything other than a lot of dead scientists?

Actually the more and more I think about it to me its the actions of the civilians that seem totally deranged in this

Tuvok
April 10th, 2010, 05:34 AM
yep

would you like to start an sga vs sgu battle here?

Nah...While I love SGU who knows how I might feel in a year? All it takes for it to go a certain direction and I will be right behind you. Smallville, Andromeda , Earth Final Conflict, Enterprise etc

Hopefully not.

Besides I get the whole love\ hate thing sci-fi can bring out in people. Let's just say while positive now I too can get a little fan angry when warrented and when justified.

I really , really think the crew need a game night. Just to ease things over.

:)

GateroomGuard
April 10th, 2010, 05:45 AM
The military did something wrong in regards to the mutiny? I didn't see it unless it was Young just giving all of them a pass.

Greer took out a group of possibly armed mutineers, non-lethally.
James riflebutted a man who was a possible danger.

I don't care if these people were unarmed, the military doesn't know that. Why should they have to risk their safety for the safety of people who five minutes ago were deciding the best way to starve them out?

If the police came in my room and told me to get on the ground and I walked toward one of them I'd expect to get the crap beaten out of me.

If the military came in and told me to get on the ground after I had taken part in an armed mutiny against them and I walked toward one of them I'd expect a chest full of lead and a free ticket to heaven.

You don't play nice to people your trying to subdue. Would it have been better had Greer and James played it the nice happy civilized way

Greer: Excuse me Civillians, Col. Young has ordered me to take back the ship. I just want to make sure that you are all unarmed so I don't have to hurt you. If any of you are armed please tell me.
Civillians: We're not armed.
Greer: Thank you thats a great... gunshot
Civillians: Wow, he actually fell for it.

James: Get on the Floor! Unless any of you have a problem with that because we don't want to make the people who just tried to kill us uncomfortable because their civillians which makes them holier than thou who can do no wrong.
Man walks towards her
James: Sir please stop moving forward. We have asked you nicely to get on the floor and you are still not stoping. If you do not stop I will have to ask Col. Young for permission to talk mean to you because you are an unarmed civillian, at least I think you're an unarmed civillian.
Man attacks.

There is no reason for moving towards someone with a gun other that attacking.

The military should be commended for showing such restraint.

escyos
April 10th, 2010, 05:56 AM
if i was young id be pissed and have them locked up

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 05:58 AM
He may have been a traitor...but he was KING! :lol:


And an excellent king, HAIL KING ARKHAN! But he was traitorous as hell, running the rogue NID, selling secrets to the Russians. And he was hardly the worst, lest we forget Colonel Simmons who shot O'Neill twice in the back during the raid on Adrian Conrad's hospital. I think some people on this forum have very short memories.

hiro
April 10th, 2010, 06:22 AM
The military came out as a bunch of savages with guns.

come on!! if the thing was gone further the civilians will actually kill the soldiers or at last Young !

if i was a trained soldier who a bunch of civilians have left for dead and when i found them pretend that nothing happens .... i 'll hit him too !


He may have been a traitor...but he was KING! :lol:


Yeap !!! the best king ! he used to see the future :lol:


And about all ... it's obvious that if they split up they'll die, the civilians have the intelligence and the military the force ... they should work together !! Or what ? Cloe with a gun figthing the aliens and Tj at the bridge controlling the ship ? come on !

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 10th, 2010, 06:25 AM
The Shrike,


The civilians should impose work to rule from this point forward. When the ships systems start malfunctioning, they should just tell Greer and James to bash it with the butts of their guns until it's fixed.

I absolutely agree. The military needs the civilians as much as the civilians need the military. It's time they both recognized that and structured the leadership accordingly.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 06:45 AM
If Young neglects to address these events, that would be a very bad leadership decision, IMO.

It was about a minute before the end of the episode, so I think we can cut them (both Young and the writers) some slack. Hopefully, Young is going to consult with Wray about what these people really want and need and they'll come up with a plan of action. Don't forget, Young isn't used to being defied and put into a situation like he was. He probably needed a little time to clear his head and gather his thoughts.


Yeah, I think that's why I'm giving her a little bit of leeway (that and I didn't get a good look at what she did in the episode... will have to re-watch later). But Greer... well, I need to see some character development from him pretty soon to redeem him in my eyes. I liked him early on, but between his actions in Water and now in Divided, I haven't been impressed. :(

I'm unsure of what he did so wrong? Besides knocking out those two civilian guards (who were probably armed, as they were GUARDING access to where the military was being held) Greer didn't use unnecessary force. He yelled a lot and was generally unpleasant, sure, but that's what Marines do in situations with potential hostiles. Still, people go on about how he's a bloodthirsty barbarian. Where's the proof? If he was so arrogant and violent then why didn't he beat everyone in the mess hall? Why didn't he start shooting? Overall, this is another feather in the "Greer's in control of his anger" cap for me...

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 10th, 2010, 06:55 AM
reddevil,


You know what shocked me? That the Airman didn't just blow Wray's head off right then and there. End the whole thing. Damn *****. Yes, I'm a violent person and I think civilians should squirm under the military's mighty boot while on that damn ship, inr constant danger.

Well, I have to say. If I'd been one of the scientists and Wray had been blown away like that for asserting something as simply as civilian control of military personel, or, failing that cooperation and coordination between equally balance civilian and military authorities, I'd simply refuse to do any more work possible go on hunger strike. The military needs the civilians to keep the ship operating and the food growing. The civilians need the military to defend the ship. Losing either factor in that equation and the whole thing falls apart. Blowing anyone's brains out is the wrong way to go.

norph
April 10th, 2010, 07:02 AM
Also that Female marine (forget her name) walks into the room and beats up a civilian, even though the civilian posed no threat to her or the military. He wasn't even attacking.



Actually the civilian was approaching the marine despite being told to get down, I believe it's in their training to prevent people from approaching them especially in a dangerous situation. I suspect police officers in real life also have same procedure, imagine this, when a police officer in a situation where he has to tell you to get down on the floor or go against the wall, if you continue to approach the officer, he would take you down one way or another.

The Swarm
April 10th, 2010, 08:25 AM
To be honest i think both the military and the civilians need to stop being idiots and frikin' work together instead of biteing eachother while under atack form 3 alien ships....its beyond me how stupid this episode was writen.

reddevil18
April 10th, 2010, 08:29 AM
To be honest i think both the military and the civilians need to stop being idiots and frikin' work together instead of biteing eachother while under atack form 3 alien ships....its beyond me how stupid this episode was writen.
Ummm...Yes, I totally agree that it is beyond you. They were not under attack when the rebellion began. In fact, aside from Rush and Chloe, everyone thought they had gotten rid of the alien problem. Which is why they focused on their own bickering. The aliens attacked when the military was in the process of taking back control. And everything then played out in a logical manner from there.

Commander Zelix
April 10th, 2010, 08:32 AM
Total agreement with above.

I enjoy Rush. He's dynamic and polarizing. But that ****-eating grin in the Pilot when Young confronted him about not dialing the Alpha Site and instead taking his chance to reach Destiny. Condemning everyone Civies and Military alike in their situation. Marks him as the last guy to trust and first guy to shoot if you had to.

That being said , the show would be twenty to twentyfive percent less awesome without him.

As for James, since her last scene in Space I get the feeling she is on an emotional razor edge. The Military are her family now. Out in the big black all alone they depend on her and she them. And woe to anyone who threatens to take that from her.

As for Greer he do what he do. He's practical, and focused. See threat, end threat. He may be a very likable fellow but you threaten the pack or the Alpha-Wolf he will rip out your threat. He's a good Beta that way.

:o
I just find it surprising the civilian forgot all about the reason why they are stuck on the Destiny far from their family in the first place. Just a couple weeks after the incident. I don't suggest to lock up Rush since he's important for the show and he does have indispensable scientific knowledge (at least its the premise of the show). Its more the reaction of the civilians which I find illogical. If anything I thought people would get more angry at him at the same time than their hope to ever returning to earth is diminishing.

s09119
April 10th, 2010, 08:33 AM
I just find it surprising the civilian forgot all about the reason why they are stuck on the Destiny far from their family in the first place. Just a couple weeks after the incident. I don't suggest to lock up Rush since he's important for the show and he does have indispensable scientific knowledge (at least its the premise of the show). Its more the reaction of the civilians which I find illogical. If anything I thought people would get more angry at him at the same time than the hope to returning to earth is diminishing.

They're stuck here, so it's in the past. I'd probably move past it, too, when there are much bigger issues to worry about.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 08:36 AM
I just find it surprising the civilian forgot all about the reason why they are stuck on the Destiny far from their family in the first place. Just a couple weeks after the incident. I don't suggest to lock up Rush since he's important for the show and he does have indispensable scientific knowledge (at least its the premise of the show). Its more the reaction of the civilians which I find illogical. If anything I thought people would get more angry at him at the same time than their hope to ever returning to earth is diminishing.

Totally agree. Have some green.

I'm still puzzled as to why Stargate Program personnel would be chafing under military command from day one. This is how it was on Icarus base, so why would it be different on Destiny? Don't like food and water rationing? TOUGH, it applies to everyone.

FloralWraith
April 10th, 2010, 08:53 AM
Ya you could say the military was shocking. They let untrained, power hungry, whining civilians take control of the ship and put all their lives in jeopardy. I wish Greer gave each of them the butt end of his rifle.

I mean what type of tool thinks a civilian should lead the expedition like a government, when it's a military operation to begin with.
I'm hoping that's sarcasm. If not, see Stargate Atlantis for a sort of dual leadership.

That is exactly what they were. Actually seeing the military in real life...and that's pretty much how they act. Not really impressive.
US Military maybe, but they're not the only miltary out there.

I was slightly disgusted with the episode. The military did what they had to but, James' "tap" (as one poster put it earlier) was a full throttle breaking-nose punch. That's going overboard.

And no, the police wouldn't do such behaviour unless it was a violent protester at something like the G20. If they beat up a civilian, it would be blaring all over the headlines and they'd be put in court or something like that. So the police comparisons are actually pretty stupid.

kymeric
April 10th, 2010, 09:23 AM
Totally agree. Have some green.

I'm still puzzled as to why Stargate Program personnel would be chafing under military command from day one. This is how it was on Icarus base, so why would it be different on Destiny? Don't like food and water rationing? TOUGH, it applies to everyone.

I suspect there is alot of people like Cavanaugh (pony tail guy) from sgu, chafing under the military. We just never saw them on other shows, they just got fired or transferred.

SGA Sheppard
April 10th, 2010, 09:33 AM
I don't understand why the Military just didn't give up all there guns. they could have owned all the civilians without them lol.
But on a serious note. I think when a group of people you have been on the ship with go rouge on you. and then lock you off from important parts of the ship. and finally threaten to starve you to death if you don't hand over your weapons.... yeaaa I think the military's actions were perfectly justified. I would be angry also.
Yes I think that one lady (whoever she is) hitting that civilian in the face with the butt of here gun was a little unnecessary. but nothing is clean in this kinda situation.
Really what were the civilians even planning on doing. what there just going to go on foreign planets without weapons? I think the Civilians made a big mistake. they now made an even weaker relationship with the Military personnel when really they all need to be working together.
I am really on Colonel Young's side now.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 09:35 AM
Totally agree. Have some green.

I'm still puzzled as to why Stargate Program personnel would be chafing under military command from day one. This is how it was on Icarus base, so why would it be different on Destiny? Don't like food and water rationing? TOUGH, it applies to everyone.

Civilians (and low level and low quality military personnel it must be said), often sign up to something expecting a easy ride and not expecting that the small print will ever happen. They start winging when it does.

thekillman
April 10th, 2010, 09:39 AM
millitary is better. one leader is better. though i think Wray will eventually be given control of the day-to-day aspect while the Millitary deals with the gate travel and exploration.


Divided showed that the civvies were ignorant. the Millitary aren't the wrong people, the civvies ARE

garhkal
April 10th, 2010, 11:27 AM
I found myself thinking the same thing, and I always thought of myself as being on the military's "side." The way they went about things though was all wrong.

I thnk that was the producers goal here. TO make us think/feel that the civs were right in doiong what they did, so they just helped by painting some of the military in a bad light.




The civilians should impose work to rule from this point forward. When the ships systems start malfunctioning, they should just tell Greer and James to bash it with the butts of their guns until it's fixed.



Part of me was actually hoping one of the civvies said just as much to Young..


And yes, the military is taking things too far. But the citizens acted incorrectly. This was wrong timing, this was the wrong way to do things. I don't know what was right, maybe there was no right way, but now things will be worse.

Prob is when would things have been right?


Should have cut the whole mutiny off at its head by putting a bullet into Wray's brain, in front of the other civilians. Would have removed the main instigator of the mutiny and would have scared the rest of the civilians into line.

Going that far imo would have made them MORE rebellious as it would have marytered Wray. Plus once the IOA learned of it, there would have been hell to pay back on earth.


I agree. I was hoping that the civilians would just stay where they were instead of going to their rooms when Young ordered them to. Sort of as an act of non-violent protest against the military attitude.

I was also surprised they just gave in and went. I would have rather liked seeing one or two stand up and say "NO".


Just to add, do certain people here have slight memory problems or are they just new to Stargate? Because the military being shown as less than perfect is nothing new to stargate, SG1 and SGA both had officers who screwed up, made mistakes, walked all over civilians without comprise or discussion and in the case of Colonel Maybourne, Simmons, Makepeace and a few others several were shown to be downright treasonous.

Remembering one of my favorite lines from SGA season 1, when McCay is ranting on about being left out of that meeting when Col Everett showed up
"they always leave the scientists out of it, until they NEED the scientists"...


If the police came in my room and told me to get on the ground and I walked toward one of them I'd expect to get the crap beaten out of me.

Or shot. Off topic, we had a case here in ocean springs last year (iirc) where a cop shot a guy in his own kitchen cause he was carving up dinner.


I'm still puzzled as to why Stargate Program personnel would be chafing under military command from day one. This is how it was on Icarus base, so why would it be different on Destiny? Don't like food and water rationing? TOUGH, it applies to everyone.

Maybe because the base was a MILITARY base.. BUT i fully agree with what Wray said. Every country which has a military that is not a dictatorship, has that military controlled by the civilians in charge.

Confessor Rahl
April 10th, 2010, 11:39 AM
I felt that for one of the first times in the show I really connected with Greer when he approached Young with his support. It seems like the most logical thing he has done so far. He realizes the threat Rush poses, and wants to make it clear to Young that he will support him regardless of what he feels about Young allegedly stranding Rush.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 10th, 2010, 12:04 PM
Confessor,


I felt that for one of the first times in the show I really connected with Greer when he approached Young with his support. It seems like the most logical thing he has done so far. He realizes the threat Rush poses, and wants to make it clear to Young that he will support him regardless of what he feels about Young allegedly stranding Rush.

What about the threat Young poses? Young is a great commander as long as he's calm. Get him angry and he beats people or leaves them to die on other worlds. In a situation like the one they are dealing with they need someone who stays calm at all times. Young has shown his inability to control his temper several times now.

wargrafix
April 10th, 2010, 01:14 PM
The fact is, the current structure is a dictatorship. With meatheads such as Greer as the musclemen, it was time for civilians to take control. Honestly, You is a poor leader who pretty much shows he cannot handle tense situations.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 01:22 PM
The fact is, the current structure is a dictatorship. With meatheads such as Greer as the musclemen, it was time for civilians to take control. Honestly, You is a poor leader who pretty much shows he cannot handle tense situations.

So how would a civilian in charge be any less of a dictatorship? They're in a dangerous situation, you can't have committees, a democracy at a time when snap decisions are made, you have Wray in charge now she's the dictator, and she can hand the guns out to however she favours and use them as her muscle.

Confessor Rahl
April 10th, 2010, 01:30 PM
So how would a civilian in charge be any less of a dictatorship? They're in a dangerous situation, you can't have committees, a democracy at a time when snap decisions are made, you have Wray in charge now she's the dictator, and she can hand the guns out to however she favours and use them as her muscle.

I think that Young is far better suited for command despite his tendency to react extremely. I feel that Rush is far more of a threat than Young by far. He does not even want to return, he is the reason they are all there, and he will take every opportunity to advance his scientific objectives over the objective of returning home. He is manipulative and deceitful. Wray is simply a power monger who can't see past her immediate desire for power. Maybe she is motivated by a genuine desire for a normal civilian-military relationship, but the reality of the situation makes Young's command the more logical one, at least from my eyes.

haloplayer
April 10th, 2010, 01:33 PM
To be honest i think both the military and the civilians need to stop being idiots and frikin' work together instead of biteing eachother while under atack form 3 alien ships....its beyond me how stupid this episode was writen.

I agree.

That's one of the reason for the Aliens to exist in SGU. To give the 2 opposing factions (military and civilians) common ground to face a common enemy.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 10th, 2010, 01:51 PM
Confessor Rahl,


I think that Young is far better suited for command despite his tendency to react extremely. I feel that Rush is far more of a threat than Young by far. He does not even want to return, he is the reason they are all there, and he will take every opportunity to advance his scientific objectives over the objective of returning home. He is manipulative and deceitful. Wray is simply a power monger who can't see past her immediate desire for power. Maybe she is motivated by a genuine desire for a normal civilian-military relationship, but the reality of the situation makes Young's command the more logical one, at least from my eyes.

At least Rush appears to be able to put intellect ahead of emotion in difficult situations. Young quite clearly cannot be counted on to be dispassionate in emotionally charged circumstances.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 02:05 PM
Confessor Rahl,



At least Rush appears to be able to put intellect ahead of emotion in difficult situations. Young quite clearly cannot be counted on to be dispassionate in emotionally charged circumstances.

Rush also doesn't want to go back to Earth. While any other commander would keep looking for avenues to accomplish this task, Rush wouldn't. He needs help running the ship, whether he likes it or not. It would be impossible for him to stay on Destiny alone. I wouldn't put it past him to sabotage any legitimate attempts to return to Earth.

Nemises
April 10th, 2010, 02:08 PM
Rush also doesn't want to go back to Earth. While any other commander would keep looking for avenues to accomplish this task, Rush wouldn't. He needs help running the ship, whether he likes it or not. It would be impossible for him to stay on Destiny alone. I wouldn't put it past him to sabotage any legitimate attempts to return to Earth.

Correct but that still doesn't justify a military dictatorship run by young.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 02:11 PM
Correct but that still doesn't justify a military dictatorship run by young.

It'll be dictatorial whoever's in charge. The military at least have systems in place to remove people from command.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 02:11 PM
Correct but that still doesn't justify a military dictatorship run by young.

No, but it doesn't make any sort of anything run or represented by Rush make any sense.

Nemises
April 10th, 2010, 02:31 PM
No, but it doesn't make any sort of anything run or represented by Rush make any sense.

Who's saying rush should run things ?

Just because i oppose young doesn't mean im backing rush!

Nemises
April 10th, 2010, 02:33 PM
It'll be dictatorial whoever's in charge. The military at least have systems in place to remove people from command.

The history of military dictatorships throughout earths history is shady at best.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 02:34 PM
The history of military dictatorships throughout earths history is shady at best.

How would a civilian one be any different then?

Avenger
April 10th, 2010, 02:38 PM
Correct but that still doesn't justify a military dictatorship run by young.

What justifies it is that Young was put in charge by the higher ups back on Earth and has not been removed, at this point. If there are issues with his command, there are official channels that can be used to remove him.

Nemises
April 10th, 2010, 02:43 PM
How would a civilian one be any different then?

What a civilian dictatorship ? I'm not vouching for one!

Nemises
April 10th, 2010, 02:44 PM
What justifies it is that Young was put in charge by the higher ups back on Earth and has not been removed, at this point. If there are issues with his command, there are official channels that can be used to remove him.

I bet they'd remove young the very instant they get to know he left the only person who knows anything about ancient technology in a planet to die.

Joachim
April 10th, 2010, 02:45 PM
What I find disgusting is that people are actually supporting the military in this case, that people are actually wishing that the military did more; my father was cheering for Young to shoot rush in the head, likewise Greer. He got excited when James slammed the guy to the ground.

How utterly disgusting.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 02:47 PM
I bet they'd remove young the very instant they get to know he left the only person who knows anything about ancient technology in a planet to die.

I think if Wray thought that would happen, she would've gone that route.

The fact that every ship in Human history has been a hierarchy ascending to one person with total control means that, likely, Wray would have run it this way.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 02:48 PM
What I find disgusting is that people are actually supporting the military in this case, that people are actually wishing that the military did more; my{mod snip} father was cheering for Young to shoot rush in the head, likewise Greer. He got excited when James slammed the guy to the ground.

How utterly disgusting.

Well, they DIDN'T shoot anyone when they COULD HAVE. Does that count for nothing?

Nemises
April 10th, 2010, 02:50 PM
I think if Wray thought that would happen, she would've gone that route.

The fact that every ship in Human history has been a hierarchy ascending to one person with total control means that, likely, Wray would have run it this way.

She was but young stopped her from using them stones because of the aliens.

I reckon she'll still do that in some future episode.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 02:54 PM
She was but young stopped her from using them stones because of the aliens.

I reckon she'll still do that in some future episode.

That one time. How much time passed between Space and Divided? Enough for both Rush and Chloe to have recurring nightmares. More than a day, I'd guess.

Nemises
April 10th, 2010, 03:04 PM
That one time. How much time passed between Space and Divided? Enough for both Rush and Chloe to have recurring nightmares. More than a day, I'd guess.

Young still hasn't allowed her access to them then.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 03:05 PM
Young still hasn't allowed her access to them then.

Was this in the episode, or just in your mind?

Nemises
April 10th, 2010, 03:14 PM
Was this in the episode, or just in your mind?

There's no proof against it either.

Since the last thing we know is that young stopped her from using it so its logical to assume that its still the case.

asdf1239
April 10th, 2010, 03:18 PM
Honestly, You is a poor leader who pretty much shows he cannot handle tense situations.
now wait a minute just who are you calling a poor leader

mjwalshe
April 10th, 2010, 03:19 PM
I'm hoping that's sarcasm. If not, see Stargate Atlantis for a sort of dual leadership.

US Military maybe, but they're not the only miltary out there.

I was slightly disgusted with the episode. The military did what they had to but, James' "tap" (as one poster put it earlier) was a full throttle breaking-nose punch. That's going overboard.

And no, the police wouldn't do such behaviour unless it was a violent protester at something like the G20. If they beat up a civilian, it would be blaring all over the headlines and they'd be put in court or something like that. So the police comparisons are actually pretty stupid.

what like the cover up of the cop that hit a non protester who then died in the UK or the paramilatery police roit in italy at a previous G20?

Nemises
April 10th, 2010, 03:21 PM
what like the cover up of the cop that hit a non protester who then died in the UK or the paramilatery police roit in italy at a previous G20?

So that makes its okay then ?

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 03:23 PM
There's no proof against it either.

Since the last thing we know is that young stopped her from using it so its logical to assume that its still the case.

Last time it was with good reason. There's nothing even supporting the theory that Wray even ATTEMPTED to use the stones after Space.

It's like me saying that we didn't see Franklin this episode because Greer shot and killed him. Oh, but he shot Franklin once before. Sure, it was with good reason and at the prompting of another. Until we see Franklin alive and well (or comatose and not doin' so hot because of the chair) then I think Greer shot him. There's nothing to say he did or did not.

Nemises
April 10th, 2010, 03:30 PM
Last time it was with good reason. There's nothing even supporting the theory that Wray even ATTEMPTED to use the stones after Space.

It's like me saying that we didn't see Franklin this episode because Greer shot and killed him. Oh, but he shot Franklin once before. Sure, it was with good reason and at the prompting of another. Until we see Franklin alive and well (or comatose and not doin' so hot because of the chair) then I think Greer shot him. There's nothing to say he did or did not.

She'd be an idiot not to use the stones because she has nothing to lose and the IOA is behind her ? why wouldn't she use it ?

we dont know what happened after space so lets not make assumptions about what happened shall we ? But young did say no one was allowed to use the stones until he said it was.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 03:32 PM
She'd be an idiot not to use the stones because she has nothing to lose and the IOA is behind her ? why wouldn't she use it ?

we dont know what happened after space so lets not make assumptions about what happened shall we ? But young did say no one was allowed to use the stones until he said it was.

Maybe, but we're both making assumptions. Do you want to stop as well, or am I the only one required to?

latvian_stargatefan
April 10th, 2010, 03:35 PM
They would've shocked me if they went Rwanda on the civilians. But nobody really was killed or injured badly. James was frustrated because in the last episode the civilian guy didn't want to have relationship with her, Greer was just being Greer and... that's basically all. Rush vs Young... the conflict started long before SGU started and these two will probably nevar be friends, as they say.

As for people supporting military, well... I don't support anybody and don't see pro-civilian or pro-military bias. The fact is that the civilian leader, Wray, isn't really the leader- she's a puppet in hands of IOA guy and Rush, the whole coup was started because of Rush... Civilians really have nobody to offer as a real leader in their situation.

Avenger
April 10th, 2010, 04:07 PM
I bet they'd remove young the very instant they get to know he left the only person who knows anything about ancient technology in a planet to die.

And that might end up being the case. However, it has yet to happen at this point. Young's power is still the only legitimate power on the ship at this point.

Nemises
April 10th, 2010, 04:11 PM
And that might end up being the case. However, it has yet to happen at this point. Young's power is still the only legitimate power on the ship at this point.

Well he can delay that indefinitely by getting rid of the stones.

Nemises
April 10th, 2010, 04:13 PM
Maybe, but we're both making assumptions. Do you want to stop as well, or am I the only one required to?

Lets wait and see happens in the coming episodes.

In any case she'd be a massive idiot if she herself decided against using the stones.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 04:14 PM
Well he can delay that indefinitely by getting rid of the stones.

Who says he is willing to do this? Who says he's contemplating it? Putting them on lockdown because they malfunction and put you in a hostile alien's body on an alien ship is a justifiable thing. Hell, if he wanted rid of Wray he may have just let her try and report back to Earth. ;)

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 04:15 PM
Lets wait and see happens in the coming episodes.

In any case she'd be a massive idiot if she herself decided against using the stones.

Maybe she wants to know it's safe. Something tells me that getting the ship ready so it could withstand another potential attack was taking up more of Rush's time than taking a look at the stones. Well, fixing the ship and plotting a mutiny.

Lost
April 10th, 2010, 04:59 PM
What I find disgusting is that people are actually supporting the military in this case, that people are actually wishing that the military did more; my {mod snip} father was cheering for Young to shoot rush in the head, likewise Greer. He got excited when James slammed the guy to the ground.

How utterly disgusting.


I agree. SU is such a dark show compared to other stargate shows.

mjwalshe
April 10th, 2010, 06:36 PM
So that makes its okay then ?

no i was just pointing out that on earth of western countries cops have behaved in more extream ways than the milatery on Destiny

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 06:40 PM
no i was just pointing out that on earth of western countries cops have behaved in more extream ways than the milatery on Destiny

Yeah, and as others have said; when you have someone pointing a gun at you, telling a crowd to back down and you're the only one who goes towards them, they're gonna take the "better safe than sorry" route and put you down. There's simply no reason to actually approach the gun-toting soldier. If you want to be rebellious and make a stand, stay still and don't get on the floor. Advancing just makes it look like you're ready to attack.

ha'tak_
April 10th, 2010, 06:54 PM
the ship should be in military hands. and as for there actions I can understand the civilians basically told them if they did not hand over the ship they would starve to death so of course they are pissed of

Khentkawes
April 10th, 2010, 06:55 PM
It was about a minute before the end of the episode, so I think we can cut them (both Young and the writers) some slack. Hopefully, Young is going to consult with Wray about what these people really want and need and they'll come up with a plan of action. Don't forget, Young isn't used to being defied and put into a situation like he was. He probably needed a little time to clear his head and gather his thoughts.

I said:
If Young neglects to address these events, that would be a very bad leadership decision, IMO. Please note the "if." I'm still hoping he addresses it later (well, sooner, rather than later, really). So I am holding out hope for him. I can understand if he needed time to clear his head and figure out where to go from here, but I still think he should have said something to ease the tension and reassure the civilians that they weren't going to be executed in the morning (which isn't a totally outlandish fear, IMO).
And as for cutting the writers some slack.... I don't recall criticizing the writers. :confused: I personally don't think I need to cut them any slack since they're doing a fantastic job on their own. The fact that they can keep me simultaneously fascinated and frustrated with Young is a sign of good writing as far as I'm concerned. Just because I don't particularly like Young at the moment doesn't mean I think he's badly written.


It'll be dictatorial whoever's in charge. The military at least have systems in place to remove people from command.


What justifies it is that Young was put in charge by the higher ups back on Earth and has not been removed, at this point. If there are issues with his command, there are official channels that can be used to remove him.

I'm asking this question because I honestly don't understand, not because I'm trying to be snarky. But what official channels? Earth and the entire military chain of command are several galaxies away. I don't understand how they could ever enforce any control over Young. He could run amok and do whatever he wanted and I don't see how the military back on Earth could do anything about it. How could he be relieved of command? Unless Scott relieves him? Even then, I'm not sure that would work. Wouldn't Young just throw Scott in the brig? Unless Young voluntarily steps down (which isn't out of the realm of possibility, since he already did so once before), how could he be removed? At this point, I don't think he's answering to anyone.

Captain Obvious
April 10th, 2010, 07:01 PM
Also that Female marine (forget her name) walks into the room and beats up a civilian, even though the civilian posed no threat to her or the military. He wasn't even attacking..

He was a mutineer, disobeying a direct order. She was ordered by her commanding officer that reasonable force was to be used. It was a calculated show of force by a fully trained Marine core Lieutenant.

I would love to hear someone try to claim she isn't a strong female character now. She couldn't have been a stronger or more authoritative female unless she beat him to death with a plastic ovary.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 07:05 PM
I said: Please note the "if." I'm still hoping he addresses it later (well, sooner, rather than later, really). So I am holding out hope for him. I can understand if he needed time to clear his head and figure out where to go from here, but I still think he should have said something to ease the tension and reassure the civilians that they weren't going to be executed in the morning (which isn't a totally outlandish fear, IMO).
And as for cutting the writers some slack.... I don't recall criticizing the writers. :confused: I personally don't think I need to cut them any slack since they're doing a fantastic job on their own. The fact that they can keep me simultaneously fascinated and frustrated with Young is a sign of good writing as far as I'm concerned. Just because I don't particularly like Young at the moment doesn't mean I think he's badly written.

Yeah, he probably should have said a little something. He did try and talk with their (ring)leader, but to no avail.

Sorry for jumping to conclusions when I mentioned the thing about the writers. I was just reminded of the threads for "Justice" when everyone was attacking the writers for not having the entire crew confront Young in the 2 minutes between him returning to Destiny alone and the episode's end. My mistake. I also think the writers are doing a great job! :D

carmencatalina
April 10th, 2010, 07:05 PM
She couldn't have been a stronger or more authoritative female unless she beat him to death with a plastic ovary.

I really shouldn't be laughing at this, but apparently, I am. Snork.

Khentkawes
April 10th, 2010, 07:15 PM
Sorry for jumping to conclusions when I mentioned the thing about the writers. I was just reminded of the threads for "Justice" when everyone was attacking the writers for not having the entire crew confront Young in the 2 minutes between him returning to Destiny alone and the episode's end. My mistake. I also think the writers are doing a great job! :D

No worries! :) I have been pretty hard on Young in most of my comments lately, so now that you mention it, I can see how that could come across as being unhappy with the writers, even though it's not the case. It's what's so brilliant about the way the writers are handling SGU: the characters are interesting, frustrating, and strangely sympathetic even when I want to slap them for acting like idiots. ;)

I think this writing style is also why this latest episode is so turning out to spark such huge debates. There are no clear-cut answers. Personally, I think both the military side and the civilian side made mistakes in this episode. I think they were both wrong, I just tend to think that the military ended up being slightly more wrong in the end, if that makes any sense.

Azzers
April 10th, 2010, 07:27 PM
If I'm rehashing other people's points, I'm sorry. But I wanted to post quickly and not go though 6 pages just 'cause I'm hurrying.

I'm honestly shocked that people are shocked by the actions of the military in this episode. I think you have two separate issues going on here. The first, is the appearance and possible actuality of a military dictatorship going on inside Destiny, but I think that's separate from what you have going on here.

The actions of the military seem perfectly consistent with their function and training. The civilians took control of the ship, the resources, and ordered the military force to essentially surrender. The commander, DIDN'T agree to it and hatched a plan retake the assets. It wasn't pretty, but it was also fairly clean and I don't remember seeing anyone killed.

Had any of the soldiers not complied with their commander, they could and probably would be brought up on charges later. A soldier does not have the luxury of deliberating on the correctness of his commander's decisions. So I'm not sure why we're judging anyone that harshly with the possible exception of Greer who just seems to "want" fight.

That said, there is a legitimate issue here and that is the inability of Wray, Rush, and Young to somehow segregate duties so that all parties feel comfortable. As it has been pointed out, the military can't function there alone. And at the moment, I'd say the civilians need the military as well. But honestly, I DON'T blame any of them. I blame the idiots back on Earth who they keep in contact with and keep pulling strings. Wray was basically told to "manage" the ship. Young has been told to "manage" the ship. And Rush doesn't need anyone to tell him to manage the ship because he just happens to know more than anyone else.

The Shrike
April 10th, 2010, 07:33 PM
...And Rush doesn't need anyone to tell him to manage the ship because he just happens to know more than anyone else.Yet the Cro Mag in charge won't listen to his advice, even though he's more qualified than anyone else on the ship to give it.

joeynox
April 10th, 2010, 07:43 PM
I'm siding with the military! The only thing the military has done wrongly is young leaving rush on the planet and that was a personal decision. In air1 rush clearly states there needs to be direct leadership. Young has been the leader and the ioa was to be incharge. Personally I don't see a problem with young being in control because whenever the ioa gets involved they make matters worse.

Wray clearly manipulated people aboard destiny to take her side so she could be incharge and rush even said it was her plan so the entire episode wasn't about the civs fighting back against the evil army it was wray trying to get the power back

military all the way

Azzers
April 10th, 2010, 07:44 PM
I'd agree, except Rush has a rather fatal flaw which is that he is extremely self serving and everyone knows it. As some others have pointed out, we have an outside perspective but Young does not. He can't tell when Rush is doing things for Rush or when Rush is doing things in everyone's best interest. We generally can (or at least have a better idea about it.)

The Shrike
April 10th, 2010, 07:49 PM
Well, it's safe to assume when Rush says that they have a better chance of surviving an attack by diverting energy to the sheilds, as opposed to weapons, that Rush is more likely to be correct than Young, unless his secret agenda is to be blown up along with everyone else.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 10th, 2010, 08:34 PM
Does anyone wonder why we haven't seen any fallout from Young attack on Telford in "Life"? Young was clearly provoked but attacking another member of the service is a pretty big deal. Young was willing to lie about what happened to Rush. Is he lieing about his status as commander of the expedition to Destiny?

Commander Zelix
April 10th, 2010, 09:01 PM
Yet the Cro Mag in charge won't listen to his advice, even though he's more qualified than anyone else on the ship to give it.
For some reason, I had a Sliders flashback while reading your post. :)

Shpinxinator
April 10th, 2010, 09:06 PM
If I may offer my completely worthless opinion...

I think in a way both sides were right and both sides were wrong for different reasons.

First of all we need to look at ALL of these people as human. They're terrifed, confused, hopeless, on edge...the list goes on. So at least in Lt. James rifflebutting the civilian it was more of a reflex of a terrifed and angry soldier, I didn't sense any melicious intention behind it..but thats just me.

Col. Young is clearly compromised as a leader, he is emotional and irrational, HOWEVER that doesn't change the fact the in terms of military action he is the best qualified to lead. The civilian authority is a little trickier. Wray clearly has her own motives. So the best solution would be to have a small group of civilians to make non-military decisions (that doesn't not exclude them from weighing in on those issues however.

But what is obivious to me is that trying to subdue the military on the ship by force is the wrong thing to do. What needs to happen is a daily "town hall" meeting in the gate room or mess hall to dicuss all issues

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 10th, 2010, 09:34 PM
ha'tak,


the ship should be in military hands. and as for there actions I can understand the civilians basically told them if they did not hand over the ship they would starve to death so of course they are pissed of

I've said all day Wray went about this the wrong way. All the civilians had to do was stop working. What's Young going to do, shoot the people he needs to keep the systems and system's interfaces operating?

haloplayer
April 10th, 2010, 09:36 PM
Thanks for sharing your opinions people :D

An-Alteran
April 10th, 2010, 10:25 PM
Confessor,



What about the threat Young poses? Young is a great commander as long as he's calm. Get him angry and he beats people or leaves them to die on other worlds. In a situation like the one they are dealing with they need someone who stays calm at all times. Young has shown his inability to control his temper several times now.
Young is the only qualified leader.

Also, don't ignore the reality that Young was framed for murder by Rush.

That is a little worse than just "getting him angry".

What Young did was wrong, he knows that.


The fact is, the current structure is a dictatorship. With meatheads such as Greer as the musclemen, it was time for civilians to take control. Honestly, You is a poor leader who pretty much shows he cannot handle tense situations.
How dare you call Greer a meat-head.


If I may offer my completely worthless opinion...

I think in a way both sides were right and both sides were wrong for different reasons.

First of all we need to look at ALL of these people as human. They're terrifed, confused, hopeless, on edge...the list goes on. So at least in Lt. James rifflebutting the civilian it was more of a reflex of a terrifed and angry soldier, I didn't sense any melicious intention behind it..but thats just me.

Col. Young is clearly compromised as a leader, he is emotional and irrational, HOWEVER that doesn't change the fact the in terms of military action he is the best qualified to lead. The civilian authority is a little trickier. Wray clearly has her own motives. So the best solution would be to have a small group of civilians to make non-military decisions (that doesn't not exclude them from weighing in on those issues however.

But what is obivious to me is that trying to subdue the military on the ship by force is the wrong thing to do. What needs to happen is a daily "town hall" meeting in the gate room or mess hall to dicuss all issues
This is the only sensible suggestion anyone has made so far.

Yes, that would be best. That is also exactly what would have occurred if this were real life with real people, rather than the limited capability of the writers.

pipi
April 11th, 2010, 04:27 AM
He may have been a traitor...but he was KING! :lol:

Gotta agree w/ the rest of the post. :D

Colonel Maybourne is the stud with lots of wives. He is definitely King! :P

igmas
April 11th, 2010, 09:53 AM
Destiny is a ship and a ship has one leader, the captain. I may be wrong but I don't think people vote about stuff on a ship its just the captain that tells the crew what to do . Making an example of the leaders of the mutiny was not an option because of the situation they are in. Young might not be the best of leaders but he is the only one they got that is "qualified" atm.

asdf1239
April 11th, 2010, 12:50 PM
why not use the comm stone to bring in a better leader such as o'neill or woolsey or have they already done that or has this been discussed alraedy

garhkal
April 11th, 2010, 03:13 PM
Confessor Rahl,



At least Rush appears to be able to put intellect ahead of emotion in difficult situations. Young quite clearly cannot be counted on to be dispassionate in emotionally charged circumstances.

Good point. IMO oneof the bigger aspects that separate a good leader from an average one is the ability to put your own emotions out of the picture.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 11th, 2010, 04:24 PM
why not use the comm stone to bring in a better leader such as o'neill or woolsey or have they already done that or has this been discussed alraedy

Not really an option is it. As the ep showed, bringing outside help in leads to them being confused and disoriented, not something you want your leader to be. Also there's the small matter the stones are unreliable and can cut out.

dxdjames
April 11th, 2010, 04:26 PM
Destiny is a ship and a ship has one leader, the captain. I may be wrong but I don't think people vote about stuff on a ship its just the captain that tells the crew what to do . Making an example of the leaders of the mutiny was not an option because of the situation they are in. Young might not be the best of leaders but he is the only one they got that is "qualified" atm.

Agreed. Plus his character flaws make for better drama IMO.

Zkyire
April 11th, 2010, 07:00 PM
Ya you could say the military was shocking. They let untrained, power hungry, whining civilians take control of the ship and put all their lives in jeopardy. I wish Greer gave each of them the butt end of his rifle.

I mean what type of tool thinks a civilian should lead the expedition like a government, when it's a military operation to begin with.

How many of the soldiers know how to run anything on the ship, exactly?

When they're in need of food; they turn to the scientists.

When they're in need of water; they turn to the scientists.

When they're under attack; they turn to the scientists.

When something needs to be organized; they turn to the scientists.

When something breaks down, they turn to the scientists.

None of the soldiers on board the Destiny have any experience captaining a starship.

The only authority they have is through their guns.

Tuvok
April 11th, 2010, 07:53 PM
Yet the Cro Mag in charge won't listen to his advice, even though he's more qualified than anyone else on the ship to give it.

I think it's a matter of trust being a Cro Mag.

Young has little trust since Rush marooned them there. He knows Rush is obsessed with Destiny . Usually has an angle as Justice showed. Rush knows that Young is the only one standing between him and god knows what knowledge in the Master Database.

FallenAngelII
April 11th, 2010, 11:42 PM
Greer has problems, but Chloe once said she wanted Rush dead, other have hinted that it would be better if he was dead. So he isn't alone in that thought.
Many have said it in jest and anger. Greer said it with a perfectly calm voice, attitude and look on his face. And he said it after the fact, after Young tried to murder Rush. He actually agrees with the decision, that if someone is a big enough thorn in your side, it's OK to murder them.

Everyone else probably didn't really mean what they said. Sometimes you say "I wish X was dead" without really meaning it. It doesn't mean you'd support someone who killed/tried to kill them in the future or that you'd ever try to do it yourself.

Greer, however, supports Young's decision and probably would've killed Rush himself if he could.

Lord Hurin
April 12th, 2010, 08:01 AM
Greer, however, supports Young's decision and probably would've killed Rush himself if he could.

Well, with Young not even supporting his decision and Greer following his orders I don't see a problem. Besides, as I've said before, if Greer wanted to shoot Rush he would. Plain and simple.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 08:06 AM
Well, with Young not even supporting his decision and Greer following his orders I don't see a problem. Besides, as I've said before, if Greer wanted to shoot Rush he would. Plain and simple.
Only if he could get away with it. Because he knows it would still be murder. And that it would upset the civilians so much that the military would have no choice but to relinquish command or suffer a full-scale strike and where would the military be without the civilians to run the ship? Dead, that's where.

Lord Hurin
April 12th, 2010, 08:08 AM
Only if he could get away with it. Because he knows it would still be murder. And that it would upset the civilians so much that the military would have no choice but to relinquish command or suffer a full-scale strike and where would the military be without the civilians to run the ship? Dead, that's where.

Why would he need to get away with it? From the sounds of many posts (not only by you, I'll add so it doesn't seem like I'm picking on you) a lot of people think Greer is a barbarian with not a brain cell in his head. His only thought is "Greer smash" and his only ambitions are to make smash gooder. That kind of rundown doesn't seem like the type of person to think things through beforehand. Especially with the "anger issues" that are constantly ascribed.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 08:11 AM
Why would he need to get away with it? From the sounds of many posts (not only by you, I'll add so it doesn't seem like I'm picking on you) a lot of people think Greer is a barbarian with not a brain cell in his head. His only thought is "Greer smash" and his only ambitions are to make smash gooder. That kind of rundown doesn't seem like the type of person to think things through beforehand. Especially with the "anger issues" that are constantly ascribed.
Why would he need to get away with it? Because if he murdered Rush in cold blood, he would be executed. The civilians would not rest until he was executed. The civilians would be in an uproar, refusing to do the military's bidding (i.e. help them survive) and quite possibly stage another coup, this one succeeding since Rush's murder only served to fuel their anger, hatred and resolve.

Also, no one's arguing that Greer doesn't have a brain. We're arguing that he has anger management problems.

Lord Hurin
April 12th, 2010, 08:23 AM
Why would he need to get away with it? Because if he murdered Rush in cold blood, he would be executed. The civilians would not rest until he was executed. The civilians would be in an uproar, refusing to do the military's bidding (i.e. help them survive) and quite possibly stage another coup, this one succeeding since Rush's murder only served to fuel their anger, hatred and resolve.

Also, no one's arguing that Greer doesn't have a brain. We're arguing that he has anger management problems.

Fair enough. We disagree on Greer. Big surprise, we disagree on most everything :)

Tuvok
April 12th, 2010, 09:50 AM
I think if he had too Greer is savy enough to get rid of Rush without having to all out execute him. Sure the civies might suspect but I don't see any of them , Franklin, Park etc having the stones to do anything about it.

Because as both Wray and Rush knows Greer is dangerous.

He is also a Soldier, so he won't be doing that will he.

:cool:

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 09:57 AM
I think if he had too Greer is savy enough to get rid of Rush without having to all out execute him. Sure the civies might suspect but I don't see any of them , Franklin, Park etc having the stones to do anything about it.
As we all know, heavy suspicion is enough for the residents of the Destiny. They only heavily suspected Rush had been murdered by Young, yet all of the civilians had already condemned him as a criminal. Heck, even most of his military staff had assumed he'd murdered the man.

Flyboy
April 12th, 2010, 10:12 AM
I still back Young's leadership, and I thought the retaking of the ship from a FEW idiotic and moronic civilians who were acting like petty children was perfectly executed. My only complaint is what Young did after they'd regained control.

IMO until the crew decide to actually SETTLE out on the Destiny or some other planet, the military remain in charge as they are still under US Military or IOA employment and on duty, as it were. Should they abandon the pursuit to return home then a civilian administration is required. Until that day, the Icarus base was a military command, and so should Destiny be. The civilian crew members simpl don't have what it takes to manage high stress situations in the same manner that the military do.

beafly
April 12th, 2010, 11:16 AM
I said it then, I'll repeat, framing the commanding officer for murder was mutiny also. Marooning or executing Rush for the action would have been appropriate in my opinion. Lying about it... was not.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 12th, 2010, 11:41 AM
beafly,


I said it then, I'll repeat, framing the commanding officer for murder was mutiny also. Marooning or executing Rush for the action would have been appropriate in my opinion. Lying about it... was not.

If Young's actions were appropriate and justified why in the world would he need to lie about his actions to the people on Destiny and plan to lie to his superiors about his actions? Young's regret show's he's not a bad person however he does not need to be in sole command of this expidition. It's a command he never wanted and should share the load with others.

FallenAngelII
April 12th, 2010, 11:56 AM
I said it then, I'll repeat, framing the commanding officer for murder was mutiny also. Marooning or executing Rush for the action would have been appropriate in my opinion. Lying about it... was not.
We do not maroon people for mutiny anymore...

beafly
April 12th, 2010, 12:05 PM
I know that mutiny is no longer punishable by death or maroonment.

Note... I included the statement with my opinion.

For whatever reason, I find the fact that Young lied about the situation more morally reprehensible than the act.

tessa
April 12th, 2010, 12:06 PM
Wow Greer is some guy who thinks he is all that.

So because some civilian is a thorn in the military side....that makes it ok to ditch him on a planet to die? That's Greer's thinking, with Rush. Greer's sense of right or wrong is twisted. I expected more from an American soldier.

Exactly, he is a soldier. That means he is used to strict orders, rules and discipline. He is tought to think that the only way for survival in an extreme situation is to comply. From his viewpoint the civilians are thorns, yes, but more important their actions go against their own good. And if for the sake of the many (and for him that means Young’s authority) he needs to forget about Rush… Why not? What he could possibly do about it anyway?
The last thing they need now is the authority problems within the military. His loyalty to Young does credit to him considering his subordination problems in past. IMHO.

haloplayer
April 12th, 2010, 04:18 PM
Exactly, he is a soldier. That means he is used to strict orders, rules and discipline. He is tought to think that the only way for survival in an extreme situation is to comply. From his viewpoint the civilians are thorns, yes, but more important their actions go against their own good. And if for the sake of the many (and for him that means Young’s authority) he needs to forget about Rush… Why not? What he could possibly do about it anyway?
The last thing they need now is the authority problems within the military. His loyalty to Young does credit to him considering his subordination problems in past. IMHO.

His strong loyalty to Young though does sort of scare me.

He is a loose cannon imo and its Young right now holding his leash....of course Young can just let go of the leash of his attack dog if he encounters trouble :D

Xeno
April 12th, 2010, 04:42 PM
His strong loyalty to Young though does sort of scare me.

He is a loose cannon imo and its Young right now holding his leash....of course Young can just let go of the leash of his attack dog if he encounters trouble :D

That's what I love about Greer. No matter what happens he is willing to do whatever Young needs him to do..

But to just add my two cents, the scenes of the Military coming in and stopping the coup were very VERY intense scenes. Starting with TJ explaining how bad the civvies messed up by doing all the way up to Greer's gun in Volker's face as Volker is frightened trying to reason with Greer.

It truly showed the dynamic range of the personalities on Destiny. The Military Personnel can be your friends, just don't **** with them. :)

I think it was all very magnificently done even down to James' rifle butt.

rlr149
April 12th, 2010, 05:19 PM
Wow Greer is some guy who thinks he is all that.

So because some civilian is a thorn in the military side....that makes it ok to ditch him on a planet to die? That's Greer's thinking, with Rush. Greer's sense of right or wrong is twisted. I expected more from an American soldier.

Also that Female marine (forget her name) walks into the room and beats up a civilian, even though the civilian posed no threat to her or the military. He wasn't even attacking.

The civilians did have some good points there.

agreed! everyone knows that american soldiers are the 'saintliest' among us all, and never do anything wrong!:sheppardanime31:

tessa
April 12th, 2010, 11:58 PM
His strong loyalty to Young though does sort of scare me.
I suppose, strong loyalty to Young among the Military Personnel is what the rest of the crew is scared the hell out, and that’s not the last cause of power conflict. I find it very unrealistic though. In such an uncomfortable and dangerous situation the real civilians, I believe, would be glad to shield themselves with military men against the inhospitable, unholy universe :)

pipi
April 13th, 2010, 02:41 AM
Loyalty is good. Keeps the order. Crazy loyalty like Greer is good to have on your side for any reason.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 13th, 2010, 08:23 AM
pipi,


Loyalty is good. Keeps the order. Crazy loyalty like Greer is good to have on your side for any reason.

Unquestioning loyalty is not good. Refusing to look critically at your superiors has certianly lead to some very bad situations in the past. That said Greer and Scott have both expressed a willingness to question their superiors. Well, Greer more than Scott.

Duneknight
April 13th, 2010, 05:20 PM
yeah, wtf is with you guys. what the military did on the show is far mercyful than what the military and police do to protesters or just stupid bystanders who dont follow orders in real life. thats the society we live in, get used to it. btw, im surprised how much flak military got from you guys, didnt you all watch SG-1? shouldnt you be partial to military?

asdf1239
April 13th, 2010, 05:22 PM
im surprised how much flak military got from you guys, didnt you all watch SG-1? shouldnt you be partial to military?
sgu is not sg1

Duneknight
April 13th, 2010, 05:32 PM
what? its set in the same world

asdf1239
April 13th, 2010, 05:40 PM
sgu is designed to involve more bickering, whining, and moral ambiguity on all sides. just because they are set in the same world does not mean that the factions are portrayed the same

Duneknight
April 13th, 2010, 05:59 PM
sgu is designed to involve more bickering, whining, and moral ambiguity on all sides. just because they are set in the same world does not mean that the factions are portrayed the same

i understand, but it SG-1 and SGA showed soldiers doing things that werent so moral as well.

Lahela
April 13th, 2010, 10:25 PM
i understand, but it SG-1 and SGA showed soldiers doing things that werent so moral as well.

You were quite right, IMO, when you said earlier that Stargate watchers would be unlikely to be anti-military (at least in scifi), but for me, the point is that in SG1 and SGA we didn't have the characters set against each other. Sure there were baddies on the earth side, but the overwhelming position was us vs them, "them" being evil aliens. The Earth guys were the heroes, even if they made some morally suspect decisions at times. In SGU, the characters are all so ambiguous that we are almost forced to choose a side, even in the face of an attack by evil aliens. Personally (and I think this is what the writers have been going for), I was disappointed with some things that Jack/Sheppard/etc did but it didn't make me angry to the point of choosing to side with the aliens - the heroes were designed to be forgiven; whereas in SGU, the characters are not immediately redeemed for their actions, it's far less black and white, no matter which side of the fence the viewer comes down on.

FallenAngelII
April 13th, 2010, 11:15 PM
yeah, wtf is with you guys. what the military did on the show is far mercyful than what the military and police do to protesters or just stupid bystanders who dont follow orders in real life. thats the society we live in, get used to it. btw, im surprised how much flak military got from you guys, didnt you all watch SG-1? shouldnt you be partial to military?
I'm sorry, the police and military are allowed to brutally pistol-whip people who do not get on the ground fast enough for their liking since when? If this had occurred in real life, someone would've been sued (state/city + individual).

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 14th, 2010, 04:03 AM
Lahela,


You were quite right, IMO, when you said earlier that Stargate watchers would be unlikely to be anti-military (at least in scifi), but for me, the point is that in SG1 and SGA we didn't have the characters set against each other. Sure there were baddies on the earth side, but the overwhelming position was us vs them, "them" being evil aliens. The Earth guys were the heroes, even if they made some morally suspect decisions at times. In SGU, the characters are all so ambiguous that we are almost forced to choose a side, even in the face of an attack by evil aliens. Personally (and I think this is what the writers have been going for), I was disappointed with some things that Jack/Sheppard/etc did but it didn't make me angry to the point of choosing to side with the aliens - the heroes were designed to be forgiven; whereas in SGU, the characters are not immediately redeemed for their actions, it's far less black and white, no matter which side of the fence the viewer comes down on.

You've just stated exactly why I like this show. Grey characters acting like real people. No one wearing white and black hats. My user name is a play on George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series. He does the same thing. That's why I'm a fan.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 14th, 2010, 04:15 AM
I'm sorry, the police and military are allowed to brutally pistol-whip people who do not get on the ground fast enough for their liking since when? If this had occurred in real life, someone would've been sued (state/city + individual).

Well in the UK the police managed to kill an innocent bystander at a protest,
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2009/apr/08/ian-tomlinson-death-video-twitter
And then in the US you get happy little incidents like these, gun pointed at you for speeding, how pleasant.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibSwITK4jjQ

And in the case of SGU, this isn't the police we are talking about, it's the military, who do not work to the same rules.

Phenom
April 14th, 2010, 04:17 AM
yeah, wtf is with you guys. what the military did on the show is far mercyful than what the military and police do to protesters or just stupid bystanders who dont follow orders in real life. thats the society we live in, get used to it. btw, im surprised how much flak military got from you guys, didnt you all watch SG-1? shouldnt you be partial to military?

Whats the weather like in downtown Baghdad at the moment? Apart from there, I can't see many other places where Police just walk around whacking people who don't follow orders.

Duneknight
April 14th, 2010, 04:26 AM
You were quite right, IMO, when you said earlier that Stargate watchers would be unlikely to be anti-military (at least in scifi), but for me, the point is that in SG1 and SGA we didn't have the characters set against each other. Sure there were baddies on the earth side, but the overwhelming position was us vs them, "them" being evil aliens. The Earth guys were the heroes, even if they made some morally suspect decisions at times. In SGU, the characters are all so ambiguous that we are almost forced to choose a side, even in the face of an attack by evil aliens. Personally (and I think this is what the writers have been going for), I was disappointed with some things that Jack/Sheppard/etc did but it didn't make me angry to the point of choosing to side with the aliens - the heroes were designed to be forgiven; whereas in SGU, the characters are not immediately redeemed for their actions, it's far less black and white, no matter which side of the fence the viewer comes down on.

you know what, thats what i think too. but do you find it more entertaining for the show to be ambiguous on the matter or to clearly show who's right and who's wrong? because i personally want to root for someone, the way i always did in SG-1 and SGA. although the wraith sympathizers were kinda funny.

Duneknight
April 14th, 2010, 04:30 AM
an example of military mistreating civilians could be Katrina. does anyone remember how the military behaved over there at the time? they looked prepared for war in downtown Baghdad. but you know why they gave off that appearance? because they were trying to restore order. sometimes, being tough is the only way especially during drastic situations. but i do not fully condone what military do most of the time, its just they are needed big time.

Phenom
April 14th, 2010, 04:46 AM
an example of military mistreating civilians could be Katrina. does anyone remember how the military behaved over there at the time? they looked prepared for war in downtown Baghdad. but you know why they gave off that appearance? because they were trying to restore order. sometimes, being tough is the only way especially during drastic situations. but i do not fully condone what military do most of the time, its just they are needed big time.

Yep agree with that. The threat of violence and fear can go a long way to controlling crowd behaviour. That is the main reason why I am so amazed the gun was put down....Don't need to use it, but it COULD be used. Crap if I was a scientist there would be no way I would disagree with the army dude with the gun.

pipi
April 14th, 2010, 04:57 AM
pipi,
Unquestioning loyalty is not good. Refusing to look critically at your superiors has certianly lead to some very bad situations in the past. That said Greer and Scott have both expressed a willingness to question their superiors. Well, Greer more than Scott.
I think you're referring to it being bad as in not good for the general military as a whole? That I'd agree, but if people would just read for once. I was saying that if there were to be a crazy loyal guy like Greer in your team or around you, I'd love to have him as a BFF dog to do my bidding as opposed to being against him for any reason. Having your own loyal bull dog has a lot of advantages. Maybe he'll even take a bullet for you = good for you.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 14th, 2010, 05:21 AM
pipi,


I think you're referring to it being bad as in not good for the general military as a whole? That I'd agree, but if people would just read for once. I was saying that if there were to be a crazy loyal guy like Greer in your team or around you, I'd love to have him as a BFF dog to do my bidding as opposed to being against him for any reason. Having your own loyal bull dog has a lot of advantages. Maybe he'll even take a bullet for you = good for you.

Greer's loyalty is great for Young. But probably bad in the long run. We know Young was framed, everyone else didn't know. The hearing was a good idea. Greer was going to run in their, guns raised, and tell people to go back to their quarters. Thankfully, Young wouldn't let him. Now Greer's been allowed to do what he wanted in the first place. That may or may not be good in the long run. Greer's unquestioning loyalty may be good for Young, we've yet to see if it's good for everyone else.

Lahela
April 14th, 2010, 09:42 AM
you know what, thats what i think too. but do you find it more entertaining for the show to be ambiguous on the matter or to clearly show who's right and who's wrong? because i personally want to root for someone, the way i always did in SG-1 and SGA. although the wraith sympathizers were kinda funny.

I love it, but I loved the other shows too. For me, it's just different. :)

Phenom
April 14th, 2010, 11:01 PM
pipi,



Greer's loyalty is great for Young. But probably bad in the long run. We know Young was framed, everyone else didn't know. The hearing was a good idea. Greer was going to run in their, guns raised, and tell people to go back to their quarters. Thankfully, Young wouldn't let him. Now Greer's been allowed to do what he wanted in the first place. That may or may not be good in the long run. Greer's unquestioning loyalty may be good for Young, we've yet to see if it's good for everyone else.

Greer is like Young's pitbull. Good bloke to have on your side, but the key for Young will be knowing when to let him off his leash.....and how much chain to give him the rest of the time.

Lahela
April 14th, 2010, 11:12 PM
Greer is like Young's pitbull. Good bloke to have on your side, but the key for Young will be knowing when to let him off his leash.....and how much chain to give him the rest of the time.

My issue with Greer isn't so much that he's a pitbull, but that he is so determinedly Young's pitbull, even if it means defying military protocol. In "Earth" when Telford assumed command, Scott did what was expected of him and accepted him as commanding officer, but Greer outright refused to acknowledge it. I know they have a history, but surely that doesn't give Greer the right to pick and choose who he'll take orders from? It makes me anxious about how tight a leash Young can keep him on and how willing Greer is to cross the line.

asdf1239
April 14th, 2010, 11:15 PM
maybe hes a replicator that young created

Daro
April 14th, 2010, 11:16 PM
Heh, I'd like to see the day that Greer finally thinks that Young is wrong and isn't willing to back him up. It'd be extremely ironic if he ended up siding with Rush on some issue...and, if I've got SGU figured out, they'll eventually have that happen. Loyalty unquestioned is loyalty untested. Greer is probably all the more loyal than usual because Young effectively saved his life. What would he do if Rush saved his life? Would he still be so eager to kill the man?

Phenom
April 15th, 2010, 01:01 AM
Its obvious that Greer is backing Young up with anything at the moment, and we know its not simply a Military chain of command thing as he quite easily dismissed Telford's command when he was on board. Further evidenced by the fact that Telford's commands were not stupidly idiotic or dangerous and worth refusing.

Therefore it is certainly possible that at some point in the future, Greer may have a nice little dispute with Young that will be good to watch.

Daro
April 15th, 2010, 01:12 AM
I'd forgotten the thing with Telford, other than their initial spat. I went back and watched parts of "Earth" again. Greer actually tries to get Scott to disrupt the stones. Scott says "I'm not you, Ronald." which was very cool. And it makes you wonder how much of a habit Greer has of being a wildcard.

FallenAngelII
April 15th, 2010, 06:03 AM
Well in the UK the police managed to kill an innocent bystander at a protest,

And then in the US you get happy little incidents like these, gun pointed at you for speeding, how pleasant.
I'm sorry, the uniformed perpetrators of those crimes were left off the hook scotch-free since when now? Without even looking into the cases, I'm pretty sure there were suspensions and/or firings and/or criminal prosecution involved in thoses cases.


And in the case of SGU, this isn't the police we are talking about, it's the military, who do not work to the same rules.
But they still have rules...

Cory Holmes
April 15th, 2010, 09:16 AM
My issue with Greer isn't so much that he's a pitbull, but that he is so determinedly Young's pitbull, even if it means defying military protocol. In "Earth" when Telford assumed command, Scott did what was expected of him and accepted him as commanding officer, but Greer outright refused to acknowledge it. I know they have a history, but surely that doesn't give Greer the right to pick and choose who he'll take orders from? It makes me anxious about how tight a leash Young can keep him on and how willing Greer is to cross the line.

There aren't enough expressions for me to adequetly communicate how perfect this description of Greer is.

prion
April 15th, 2010, 09:42 AM
My issue with Greer isn't so much that he's a pitbull, but that he is so determinedly Young's pitbull, even if it means defying military protocol. In "Earth" when Telford assumed command, Scott did what was expected of him and accepted him as commanding officer, but Greer outright refused to acknowledge it. I know they have a history, but surely that doesn't give Greer the right to pick and choose who he'll take orders from? It makes me anxious about how tight a leash Young can keep him on and how willing Greer is to cross the line.

Good points!

As for the military, some of their actions in this episode... well, Lt James probably isn't going to be dating any civilians any time soon after clocking one of 'em with her weapon...

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 15th, 2010, 10:56 AM
I'm sorry, the uniformed perpetrators of those crimes were left off the hook scotch-free since when now? Without even looking into the cases, I'm pretty sure there were suspensions and/or firings and/or criminal prosecution involved in thoses cases.

In the UK case no, one officer was in court for another incident with the protests on the same date as the killing and was acquitted. Apart from that no officers were charged or actions brought against them.

But they still have rules...
And those rules happen to be a little looser with the application of violence, even on civilians.

beafly
April 15th, 2010, 11:19 AM
Good points!

As for the military, some of their actions in this episode... well, Lt James probably isn't going to be dating any civilians any time soon after clocking one of 'em with her weapon...

Uh, I don't know bout that. Seems to me I'd probably still date her, even if she decked my best friend for being stupid enough to approach her after being ordered at gunpoint to get on the ground. She'd be a great person to have interested in my personal well being.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 15th, 2010, 12:00 PM
beafly,


Uh, I don't know bout that. Seems to me I'd probably still date her, even if she decked my best friend for being stupid enough to approach her after being ordered at gunpoint to get on the ground. She'd be a great person to have interested in my personal well being.

Stupid by standing? Good grief Volker attempted to talk to Greer, standing far longer than the man James knocked to the ground, and Greer just chambered a round. Should Greer have taken a swing at Volker or put a round in him to prove a point?

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 15th, 2010, 12:14 PM
Stupid by standing? Good grief Volker attempted to talk to Greer, standing far longer than the man James knocked to the ground, and Greer just chambered a round. Should Greer have taken a swing at Volker or put a round in him to prove a point?
Lots of people armed with automatic weapons are running into the room and telling you to get down. The smart thing to do is do what your told, what do you thinks going to happen if you carry on standing up? Did it look like the military were going to say please? Typical stupidity, but not that uncommon, hostage rescue units like the SAS have to deal with the fact for instance that when they go in they'll often be lots of civvies running around screaming, instead of doing the smart thing and getting down. During the rescue at Entebbe by the Israelis for example the 3 hostages that died in the raid were 3 who decided to stand up in the middle of a gunfight, despite being told to stay down.

FallenAngelII
April 15th, 2010, 12:22 PM
Typical stupidity...
Which warrants and justifies violence?

You're not even one of the people who argue "Well, he moved towards her in a threatening way!", you're just saying "Well, he didn't get on the ground fast enough!". That's no reason to pistol-whip him (with a huge gun)!

rlr149
April 15th, 2010, 12:23 PM
Whats the weather like in downtown Baghdad at the moment? Apart from there, I can't see many other places where Police just walk around whacking people who don't follow orders.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20100415/twl-video-of-cops-beating-student-shocks-3fd0ae9.html

i can

FallenAngelII
April 15th, 2010, 12:29 PM
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20100415/twl-video-of-cops-beating-student-shocks-3fd0ae9.html

i can
There was an inferred "without legal consequences" attached to that.

prion
April 15th, 2010, 12:43 PM
Lots of people armed with automatic weapons are running into the room and telling you to get down. The smart thing to do is do what your told, what do you thinks going to happen if you carry on standing up? Did it look like the military were going to say please? Typical stupidity, but not that uncommon, hostage rescue units like the SAS have to deal with the fact for instance that when they go in they'll often be lots of civvies running around screaming, instead of doing the smart thing and getting down. During the rescue at Entebbe by the Israelis for example the 3 hostages that died in the raid were 3 who decided to stand up in the middle of a gunfight, despite being told to stay down.

the main reason to have all this conflict is to have drama. since these ARe people they have to live with and can't kill, they do have to use common sense. yelling at someone in a strong voice is often VERY effective to quelling violence. face it, we're not dealing with a mob mentality about to trash a storefront. these are scientists, etc.

the only reason to have James whap somebody is to insert drama into what would not be an incredibly dramatic scene, otherwise ;)

rlr149
April 15th, 2010, 12:53 PM
There was an inferred "without legal consequences" attached to that.

i bet they thought they'd get away with it, and i bet even more that more have got away with it. in less dramatic circumstances then 'a starship in another galaxy' too.

extraordinary problematic circumstances require extraordinary solutions, ie NOT the 'norm'

beafly
April 15th, 2010, 12:54 PM
beafly,



Stupid by standing? Good grief Volker attempted to talk to Greer, standing far longer than the man James knocked to the ground, and Greer just chambered a round. Should Greer have taken a swing at Volker or put a round in him to prove a point?

Yes.

Stupid by standing. Stupid for moving forward. Stupid for doing ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT YOU'RE TOLD BY THE WOMAN WITH A MACHINE GUN.

I'd tell my own mother that if she just got clocked by James.

"Christ Mom. Get on the ground when an armed person points a weapon at you and tells you to do so."

I'd green you if I could TM6P. You get it.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 15th, 2010, 12:55 PM
Which warrants and justifies violence?

You're not even one of the people who argue "Well, he moved towards her in a threatening way!", you're just saying "Well, he didn't get on the ground fast enough!". That's no reason to pistol-whip him (with a huge gun)!

Actually in the militaries view it is. Better to get control of the situation by giving someone a tap on the head quickly rather than risk them making any kind of mood and getting shot. Standard SOP really, military counter terrorist teams will treat hostages as threats and treat them roughly, doing things like knocking them to the floor with weapons, the civilians here weren't hostages, they were the threat and they were treated no worse than they would have been if the military were coming to rescue them.

yanna
April 15th, 2010, 03:42 PM
The civilian wasn't threatening James. He just didn't get on the ground fast enough for her liking and she made an example out of him to exert her authority. I hope the civilians won't forget what she did. Scott did remind them that they had to live with these people and none of the other soldiers brutalised the surrendering civilians like that.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 15th, 2010, 03:52 PM
The civilian wasn't threatening James. He just didn't get on the ground fast enough for her liking and she made an example out of him to exert her authority. I hope the civilians won't forget what she did. Scott did remind them that they had to live with these people and none of the other soldiers brutalised the surrendering civilians like that.

Getting a tap on the head isn't brutalisation, trust me. The entire point about living with these people meant they used non lethal force, knocking people down rather than shooting them.

garhkal
April 15th, 2010, 07:21 PM
How many of the soldiers know how to run anything on the ship, exactly?

When they're in need of food; they turn to the scientists.

When they're in need of water; they turn to the scientists.

When they're under attack; they turn to the scientists.

When something needs to be organized; they turn to the scientists.

When something breaks down, they turn to the scientists.

None of the soldiers on board the Destiny have any experience captaining a starship.

The only authority they have is through their guns.

Yup. though they only turn to the scientists when under attack if they need some gizmo activated.




yeah, wtf is with you guys. what the military did on the show is far mercyful than what the military and police do to protesters or just stupid bystanders who dont follow orders in real life. thats the society we live in, get used to it. btw, im surprised how much flak military got from you guys, didnt you all watch SG-1? shouldnt you be partial to military?



As a mil member, i am shocked at times with the overbearingness they seem to show, that i have yet to see from ACTUAL mil personnel.
That is why i give them flak.

Phenom
April 15th, 2010, 09:41 PM
Well in the UK the police managed to kill an innocent bystander at a protest,
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2009/apr/08/ian-tomlinson-death-video-twitter
And then in the US you get happy little incidents like these, gun pointed at you for speeding, how pleasant.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibSwITK4jjQ

And in the case of SGU, this isn't the police we are talking about, it's the military, who do not work to the same rules.

What the copper did in that video was a standard high risk vehicle stop. It obviously wouldn't be done unless it was suspected the occupants were armed but I haven't spoken to the copper involved nor read what his suspicions were. Very hard to pass judgement on a short clip with no background.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 16th, 2010, 04:04 AM
Phenom,

No, we watched that video in my Criminal Procedure class. He was pissed because he'd been following that woman with light's flashing for ten minutes before she stopped. We watched the entire chase. He had no idea whether she was armed or not. The officer was fired for his actions.

jelgate
April 16th, 2010, 04:46 AM
Phenom,

No, we watched that video in my Criminal Procedure class. He was pissed because he'd been following that woman with light's flashing for ten minutes before she stopped. We watched the entire chase. He had no idea whether she was armed or not. The officer was fired for his actions.
Firing seems a little excessive then. 10 minutes seems quite long for a police officer to be following. I would have been quite cautious if it was me

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 16th, 2010, 05:13 AM
Jelgate,


Firing seems a little excessive then. 10 minutes seems quite long for a police officer to be following. I would have been quite cautious if it was me

It's a long chase, no question. The problem was the woman was afraid to stop. It was a very rural are of I-95 in South Carolina. I believe she was from out of state and had heard rumors about someone with blue lights who wasn't a police officer who would stop female motorists and rape them. That doesn't justify her not stoping. Neither does the officer's frustration justify pulling a weapon, yanking her out of the car, and throwing her to the ground where he didn't have a reasonable suspicion that she was armed.

spinny magee
April 16th, 2010, 07:07 AM
Frankly had Greer put a bullet in Wray or Chloe (accidently maybe) I would have been relevantly amused

jelgate
April 16th, 2010, 08:11 AM
Jelgate,



It's a long chase, no question. The problem was the woman was afraid to stop. It was a very rural are of I-95 in South Carolina. I believe she was from out of state and had heard rumors about someone with blue lights who wasn't a police officer who would stop female motorists and rape them. That doesn't justify her not stoping. Neither does the officer's frustration justify pulling a weapon, yanking her out of the car, and throwing her to the ground where he didn't have a reasonable suspicion that she was armed.

I'm not dare sugessting the officer was right or that he should not be discplined but given the situation I think firing is a little extreme

garhkal
April 16th, 2010, 03:16 PM
Agreed. I have lost track of the number of cops killed or shot making routine stops for traffic violations.

FeloniousMonk
April 24th, 2010, 02:39 PM
I didn't read the thread so I'm not sure if this was posted already.

I'm not commenting on the actions of the individual military members but I did want to point out that Greer is a Marine, not a soldier. James is Air Force, not a Marine.

:)

Promethius30
April 25th, 2010, 09:11 AM
I thought the Military was well within there rights not like they killed anyone.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 26th, 2010, 01:15 PM
Promethius,


I thought the Military was well within there rights not like they killed anyone.

Are you suggesting that "not dead" means the force level used is acceptable?

MajorWoods
July 25th, 2010, 05:00 PM
People who argue that the military had a right to do what they did disgust me. I wonder how they would feel being ordered around by guys who didn't know anything about the ship they were on and their only useful skills were shooting things. The ones who should be running the ship are the civilians. Greer is a psychopath whose sense of loyalty is his only redeeming feature, but it extends to people who don't deserve it. The military on this ship is a bunch of bullies. Never mind the fact that since no one signed up to be there, it isn't a military outpost and the IOA would make sure that it wasn't declared one. So, basically it is just Young and his boys ruling by fear and violence. Look at what James did. I hope that she doesn't get put in a life and death situation where the only one who can save her is the guy she smashed in the face with the butt of a m4. See how willing to help he is. It is time for the military on the destiny to step aside and realize that they don't know enough to be in charge. See how Rush was right and Young's first instinct was to fire.

GateroomGuard
July 25th, 2010, 06:10 PM
The civillians are not trained or prepared for the situation they are in. The idea the civillians should be in charge is ludicrous. They are on a ship, a ship is not a democracy. The military and Young would be foolish to let the civillians be in charge knowing that they are not prepared or capable of making the necessary decisions for the safety of the ship and the crew.

The civillians got whiny because things were getting hard and it was all that 'evil youngs' fault and if they were in charge and the military disarmed they could all join hands and sing kumbaya and talk all their problems away using their powers of being 'civillians'. That idea was promptly shattered when the civillians couldn't even defend the Destiny from the military they had imprisoned and couldn't even decide what to do with the military once they imprisoned them. When the 'Blues' came I wonder how long they would have taken forming a commitee to discuss the problem before everyone was in a fishtank.

And the military took appropriate measures for their safety when they knocked the civillians out who were being hostile. If those civillians are holding grudges because the military people, who only a few seconds ago they were considering starving, hit you because you made a threatning move towards them, then I'm more worried about the civillians perception of reality.

The fact that the civillians didn't want to be on the ship is irrelevant. Their on a military vessel, under military control. If they don't like it, tough. There are plenty of civillian refugees on Earth who've been forced to evacuate to ships, and those ships didn't suddenly become civillian controlled democracies, they stayed military controlled.

MajorWoods
July 25th, 2010, 06:23 PM
Wow, really? Are you that stupid? This wasn't a military ship to start off with. It was a bunch of people on a civilian controlled base that were forced to go to the ship. As to your point they couldn't hold off the military. Well, did you see them with multiple weapons? The answer is quite plainly no. They didn't want to starve them. They were simply showing them what it is like to be on he other side of situation. Where they are the ones who don't have control and are being told what to do. I hope one day you live in a military dictatorship. I wonder if your thoughts would run along the same lines.

jelgate
July 25th, 2010, 06:35 PM
Wow, really? Are you that stupid? This wasn't a military ship to start off with. It was a bunch of people on a civilian controlled base that were forced to go to the ship. As to your point they couldn't hold off the military. Well, did you see them with multiple weapons? The answer is quite plainly no. They didn't want to starve them. They were simply showing them what it is like to be on he other side of situation. Where they are the ones who don't have control and are being told what to do. I hope one day you live in a military dictatorship. I wonder if your thoughts would run along the same lines.
Icarus was a military base. And their is a huge difference from military control then a military dictarship

GateroomGuard
July 25th, 2010, 06:38 PM
1. The Destiny is an Ancient military vessel. It is heavilly armed and I can't think of a single civillian ship with a giant space gun on them.
2. The Icarus Base was under command of Col. Young. The Destiny is no different except now the civillians can't leave.
3. The Military did not ever decieve the civillians and imprison them while debating whether or not to kill them while holding several civillians in a brig. The civillians told the military to disarm, that would be like the military telling the civillians to give up their science equipment and notes.
4. I've been on ships, civillian ships. And even those ships have the same command structure as Destiny. There is one captain with officers beneath him. If you don't like what the captains doing to bad. If I had pulled what the civillians did on those ships I'd end up in the brig followed by jailtime.

The Destiny isn't a country, it's a military vessel. It doesn't have a government it has a captain, it doesn't have citizens it has a crew.

xxxevilgrinxxx
July 27th, 2010, 11:02 AM
Wow, really? Are you that stupid? This wasn't a military ship to start off with. It was a bunch of people on a civilian controlled base that were forced to go to the ship. As to your point they couldn't hold off the military. Well, did you see them with multiple weapons? The answer is quite plainly no. They didn't want to starve them. They were simply showing them what it is like to be on he other side of situation. Where they are the ones who don't have control and are being told what to do. I hope one day you live in a military dictatorship. I wonder if your thoughts would run along the same lines.first off, calling people stupid is uncalled for
it's a debate fail :)
2nd, the situation aboard Destiny is nowhere near a military dictatorship. saying it a bagillion times doesn't make it so.


Icarus was a military base. And their is a huge difference from military control then a military dictarship
exactly
every one of those scientists, with perhaps the exception of Chloe and maybe Eli signed on to work under the military, on a military base. This isn't a dictatorship. No one was forced at gunpoint to sign on with the military



2. The Icarus Base was under command of Col. Young. The Destiny is no different except now the civillians can't leave.The military can't leave either, for that matter. As far as civilians being allowed to leave, Young let civilians leave in "Faith" and even left a shuttle for them.

EllieVee
July 28th, 2010, 01:01 AM
Icarus was a military base. And their is a huge difference from military control then a military dictarship

Such as?

GateroomGuard
July 28th, 2010, 01:46 AM
Such as?

The Military answer to a civillian govt on Incarus. If it was a military dictatorship they would answer to another military official at the top. It hasn't changed on Destiny, Young is still in command and takes orders from a civillian controlled military

Ser Scot A Ellison
August 13th, 2010, 03:12 PM
I just rewatched the scene where James clocks the guy in the mess frame by frame. He approaches his hands are to his side. As she moves to hit him his hands are moving down to his sides. I agree he was approaching but he was not moving to attack. Her assault was unjustified in my opinion.

jelgate
August 13th, 2010, 03:46 PM
I just rewatched the scene where James clocks the guy in the mess frame by frame. He approaches his hands are to his side. As she moves to hit him his hands are moving down to his sides. I agree he was approaching but he was not moving to attack. Her assault was unjustified in my opinion.
It doesn't take long for a guy with his hands down to pull out a weapon and strike James

major davis
August 13th, 2010, 04:01 PM
The civillians are not trained or prepared for the situation they are in. The idea the civillians should be in charge is ludicrous. They are on a ship, a ship is not a democracy. The military and Young would be foolish to let the civillians be in charge knowing that they are not prepared or capable of making the necessary decisions for the safety of the ship and the crew.

The civillians got whiny because things were getting hard and it was all that 'evil youngs' fault and if they were in charge and the military disarmed they could all join hands and sing kumbaya and talk all their problems away using their powers of being 'civillians'. That idea was promptly shattered when the civillians couldn't even defend the Destiny from the military they had imprisoned and couldn't even decide what to do with the military once they imprisoned them. When the 'Blues' came I wonder how long they would have taken forming a commitee to discuss the problem before everyone was in a fishtank.

And the military took appropriate measures for their safety when they knocked the civillians out who were being hostile. If those civillians are holding grudges because the military people, who only a few seconds ago they were considering starving, hit you because you made a threatning move towards them, then I'm more worried about the civillians perception of reality.

The fact that the civillians didn't want to be on the ship is irrelevant. Their on a military vessel, under military control. If they don't like it, tough. There are plenty of civillian refugees on Earth who've been forced to evacuate to ships, and those ships didn't suddenly become civillian controlled democracies, they stayed military controlled.

I entirely agree. The military were put in charge of Icarus Base. Were their orders questioned there. No. Now just because the Icarus Expedition isn't on the Icarus Base and is in unfavorable circumstances, so what, Young is still in command, and Im sure even the President realizes the Destiny is run by the military and is fine with it. If people on Earth felt it was unfair, Young would be removed.

The civies are like whiny kids, they obey their parents (military) when they like their decisions, but when they don't like the situation or the leaders decision, they stage a coup. Now im not saying the situation is unrealistic, and if SGU ever was real, it probably would happen, im just saying, the civilians are out of place and are acting ridiculous.

GateroomGuard
August 14th, 2010, 01:12 AM
I just rewatched the scene where James clocks the guy in the mess frame by frame. He approaches his hands are to his side. As she moves to hit him his hands are moving down to his sides. I agree he was approaching but he was not moving to attack. Her assault was unjustified in my opinion.

Col. Paddy Mayne, one of the founders of the SAS said this, "When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move- hostile or otherwise. He has started to think and is therefore dangerous."

Now the situation isn't the same for that, but the idea is still there. The Military didn't know how well armed the civillian mutineers were, but one made a move towards them, disobeying their commands not to.

Now they just burst into a room full of people who just mutinied and were trying to starve them out. They told everyone to freeze and stay still, someone continued to walk towards them. Now in the 1.5 seconds available to consider options the safest option for yourself and your comrades is to hit that guy until he goes down. You don't know if he has a weapon, you know that the people could have weapons and were attempting to kill you. So in the 1.5 seconds you have to make a decision the safest one for you is to clock that guy. Why? Because if he is trying to attack you you've protected yourself and your comrades along with everyone else by preventing a fight. If he was unarmed and meant no harm it was still the right decision, he may have injuries but it's better than risking the alternative. And if he was moving his hands down to his sides that doesn't help, thats where a lot of people keep their weapons.

If you don't want a cop or a soldier or someone to clock you then DO NOT go near them when they tell you to get back and put your hands up. If that civillian didn't want to get his headache he should have moved back put his hands on his head and then proceded to slowy lie on the ground as told.


I entirely agree. The military were put in charge of Icarus Base. Were their orders questioned there. No. Now just because the Icarus Expedition isn't on the Icarus Base and is in unfavorable circumstances, so what, Young is still in command, and Im sure even the President realizes the Destiny is run by the military and is fine with it. If people on Earth felt it was unfair, Young would be removed.

The civies are like whiny kids, they obey their parents (military) when they like their decisions, but when they don't like the situation or the leaders decision, they stage a coup. Now im not saying the situation is unrealistic, and if SGU ever was real, it probably would happen, im just saying, the civilians are out of place and are acting ridiculous.

Thanks, I agree. When TJ was talking to Chloe it really did feel like she was basically shaking her head and saying 'Wait till your father(Young) gets here'. Then Youngs stare down of them all at the end, he really put on the dissapointed but forgiving father figure. And the civillians were acting like whiny kids the entire time.

Does Wray believe that every civillian has authority over the military? I means he acts like if she walks down the street and see's a soldier she can order him around. Destiny isn't a country, it doesn't need a government. Now if they didn't have the stones I might see her point. But they can communicate to Earth anytime they want so the civillian control over Young is still in effect through the chain of command.

I can't even figure out what Wray's endgame was in the mutiny. The military has to disarm? Then who the heck is going to defend the ship?! Did Wray think she could take over and O'Neil would be fine with it? Was she even planning on taking orders from him, if she would take orders from him then she's a hypocrite, if she wouldn't then she is delusional. Was she expecting the IOA would suddenly take complete control of the SGC? I just don't get.

xxxevilgrinxxx
August 14th, 2010, 06:28 AM
excellent points, GREEN!
Now that you've pointed it out that way, yes, I do think that Wray believes that all civilians have control over all the military anywhere, and that somehow she managed to have other civilians buy into that. As for her endgame, I think it's putting someone from the IOA in control of the ship so that she can say that it's happened and secure something from Strom at home.

GateroomGuard
August 14th, 2010, 01:11 PM
excellent points, GREEN!
Now that you've pointed it out that way, yes, I do think that Wray believes that all civilians have control over all the military anywhere, and that somehow she managed to have other civilians buy into that. As for her endgame, I think it's putting someone from the IOA in control of the ship so that she can say that it's happened and secure something from Strom at home.

Part of me sort of wishes the mutiny would have worked. Only so I could see O'Neil's reaction when Wray stones in and tells him. I think O'Neils head would explode from the rage, but not before he let out a 'WHAT?!' that could be heard all over the galaxy.

major davis
August 14th, 2010, 07:01 PM
Col. Paddy Mayne, one of the founders of the SAS said this, "When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move- hostile or otherwise. He has started to think and is therefore dangerous."

Now the situation isn't the same for that, but the idea is still there. The Military didn't know how well armed the civillian mutineers were, but one made a move towards them, disobeying their commands not to.

Now they just burst into a room full of people who just mutinied and were trying to starve them out. They told everyone to freeze and stay still, someone continued to walk towards them. Now in the 1.5 seconds available to consider options the safest option for yourself and your comrades is to hit that guy until he goes down. You don't know if he has a weapon, you know that the people could have weapons and were attempting to kill you. So in the 1.5 seconds you have to make a decision the safest one for you is to clock that guy. Why? Because if he is trying to attack you you've protected yourself and your comrades along with everyone else by preventing a fight. If he was unarmed and meant no harm it was still the right decision, he may have injuries but it's better than risking the alternative. And if he was moving his hands down to his sides that doesn't help, thats where a lot of people keep their weapons.

If you don't want a cop or a soldier or someone to clock you then DO NOT go near them when they tell you to get back and put your hands up. If that civillian didn't want to get his headache he should have moved back put his hands on his head and then proceded to slowy lie on the ground as told.



Thanks, I agree. When TJ was talking to Chloe it really did feel like she was basically shaking her head and saying 'Wait till your father(Young) gets here'. Then Youngs stare down of them all at the end, he really put on the dissapointed but forgiving father figure. And the civillians were acting like whiny kids the entire time.

Does Wray believe that every civillian has authority over the military? I means he acts like if she walks down the street and see's a soldier she can order him around. Destiny isn't a country, it doesn't need a government. Now if they didn't have the stones I might see her point. But they can communicate to Earth anytime they want so the civillian control over Young is still in effect through the chain of command.

I can't even figure out what Wray's endgame was in the mutiny. The military has to disarm? Then who the heck is going to defend the ship?! Did Wray think she could take over and O'Neil would be fine with it? Was she even planning on taking orders from him, if she would take orders from him then she's a hypocrite, if she wouldn't then she is delusional. Was she expecting the IOA would suddenly take complete control of the SGC? I just don't get.

Is it just me or do I hear the airlock callings Wray's name. :eek: I wish Wray had to be under Adama. Man she would have been dead a while ago.

GateroomGuard
August 14th, 2010, 08:46 PM
Is it just me or do I hear the airlock callings Wray's name. :eek: I wish Wray had to be under Adama. Man she would have been dead a while ago.

Wray+Adama=Dead Wray. I now want an alternate reality episode where Wray ends up on a Destiny where Young is basically Adama, Greer can be Tigh. I'd like to see her talk about 'civillian control' then.

Pharaoh Atem
August 14th, 2010, 08:49 PM
I just rewatched the scene where James clocks the guy in the mess frame by frame. He approaches his hands are to his side. As she moves to hit him his hands are moving down to his sides. I agree he was approaching but he was not moving to attack. Her assault was unjustified in my opinion.

sending a message to the civilians.

lordofseas
August 14th, 2010, 09:13 PM
Is it just me or do I hear the airlock callings Wray's name. :eek: I wish Wray had to be under Adama. Man she would have been dead a while ago.

Impossible. Destiny lacks airlocks.

Pharaoh Atem
August 14th, 2010, 09:14 PM
Impossible. Destiny lacks airlocks.

but a stargate with a unstable kawoosh :)

Deevil
August 14th, 2010, 11:12 PM
sending a message to the civilians.

What message, that they are aggressive bullies?

**

I don't understand why anyone is comparing the command structure on a military base to being stranded on the ship. It shouldn't remain the same because the circumstances are different. At least at Icarus you had some recourse, there were checks and balances in place that ensured that everyone acted in a way that was legal, respectful and that everyone had a voice and a place, here they don't exist.

Here all we have in a military dictatorship that is in charge simply because they have weapons and are, in some cases, bullies. Not because they should, or are actually capable of it. They don't seen to know their backside from their elbow at times, they are in no way more equiped to handle this situation then some of the civilians are. This is a circumstance where there should not be a military command but a joint command where everyone's needs are met and it ensures that everyone is listening to each other.

That's why the civilians were taking over, because Young was not listening as he should. Because he is a bully without someone to keep in in line, rather he has 1 too many enablers. Because the Young, and by extension the military, think they have the right to unilaterally decide on guilt and execution.

I can't help but wonder how many of us would be happy to be under Young's command. I know I wouldn't be.

Sami_
August 14th, 2010, 11:37 PM
I don't see how things are so different, they are still in touch with Earth and Young/Telford's superior officer can board Destiny - and has done.

The only real difference from Icarus is that they can't send a ship full of marines to restore order and I don't think that fact is making Young act any different, he is clearly still subordinate to O'Neill.

Communication through the correct chain of command is still present, there is no missing civilian leadership that anyone on Destiny would be required to fill - if they lost communication with earth it would be a different case.

Deevil
August 14th, 2010, 11:47 PM
I don't think that fact is making Young act any different, he is clearly still subordinate to O'Neill.

When it suits his purposes. Yet, he has told Jack on one occasion he wont do something, orders or not. Young is a bully, a bully who doesn't like to make decisions when he has too. He may have been suited to command a research base, but clearly his own assessment of himself not being cut out for this type of command anymore is correct.

Someone who is a communications officer is not likely to be put into command of the infantry. Someone who is washed up and has some glaring anger and/or personality issues isn't suited to be in command of civilians. On the research base he was a glorified babysitter, here he is not. He has assumed to role of governance now, and that comes certain responsibilities that he cannot commit too. IE: Actually listening, respecting and communicating with the civilians rather then being on high and his superior self.

There needs to be a joint military/civ command here - one that perhaps should be voted on, 'cause despite the stones existence they are far beyond Earths control, we know it and so do they.

Sami_
August 14th, 2010, 11:57 PM
Well from the spoilers we have heard for s2 it looks like

Rush will truly try and create a dictatorship with him in charge

I still see this as military vs civilian rather than civilians vs Young, if Wray had a legitimate grievance she could easily use the stones and file that grievance in the correct manner but instead she attempts a mutiny, why would she not go to O'Neill and have someone who actually has authority deal with the situation talk to Young if indeed there is a problem. If that failed then she has a reason to mutiny but until then it just looks like she is being opportunistic.

GateroomGuard
August 15th, 2010, 12:06 AM
When it suits his purposes. Yet, he has told Jack on one occasion he wont do something, orders or not. Young is a bully, a bully who doesn't like to make decisions when he has too. He may have been suited to command a research base, but clearly his own assessment of himself not being cut out for this type of command anymore is correct.

Someone who is a communications officer is not likely to be put into command of the infantry. Someone who is washed up and has some glaring anger and/or personality issues isn't suited to be in command of civilians. On the research base he was a glorified babysitter, here he is not. He has assumed to role of governance now, and that comes certain responsibilities that he cannot commit too. IE: Actually listening, respecting and communicating with the civilians rather then being on high and his superior self.

There needs to be a joint military/civ command here - one that perhaps should be voted on, 'cause despite the stones existence they are far beyond Earths control, we know it and so do they.



The civillians should not have any more control over Destiny than they already do. Voting for issues on a ship is foolhardy. Nothing has changed since Icarus other than it's location and it's inability to be resupplied. If they were somehow still on Icarus Base with their Stargate destroyed and the Lucian Alliance blockading the planet there would be no question that Young would still be in charge.

There on Destiny, that changes nothing. Young is still the ranking military officer of a military project. The civillians on Destiny should be used to the fact that the military will be in charge. Joint civillian/military leadership is not right. The military should have the same authority and control they did on Icarus, the civillians are there at the request of the military. They work for the SGC, a military organization. If the civillians have a problem with military leadership then they shouldn't have agreed to join the SGC. And Destiny is a ship, you don't run a ship through comittee, you have 1 captain who gives orders and that's what happens. Look at the mess that 'civillian' leadership got into in the mutiny. They couldn't make any decions on what to do and their mutiny ended when they had every system on the ship under their control and all the military either trapped or imprisoned. Civillians should not be making decisons on military matters. And everything on Destiny is a military matter.

And what bad decisons has Young made? Besides his questionable action of leaving Rush on a planet, of which I have no problem. And his attempting to destroy an enemy ship even though some of his people were still on it, which I also have no problem with. The only decisons he has made that I disagree with were those he made in Incursion when he choose not to defend the gate, vent the atmosphere, and then surrender all his people to execution. Up until Incursion every decision he made I aggreed with.

Deevil
August 15th, 2010, 12:08 AM
Well from the spoilers we have heard for s2 it looks like

I haven't been reading spoilers, and often they aren't like they appear anyway so I have no judgment on that topic.


I still see this as military vs civilian rather than civilians vs Young, if Wray had a legitimate grievance she could easily use the stones and file that grievance in the correct manner but instead she attempts a mutiny, why would she not go to O'Neill and have someone who actually has authority deal with the situation talk to Young if indeed there is a problem.

Why, Young could easily ignore it. He could easily have to stone et all destroyed. Earth has no real command over Destiny, it's all beyond superficial so why bother going through 'official' channels when Young can just as easily ignore his orders as he has done before. Wray did what she thought was the best thing to do, and yes to a certain extent it was opportunistic, but I don't think she wants to be in command. She just wants to get home and will do anything to get there - one of the few people on the ship who seem to have that drive at all.

I don't fault her because you're right, it is military against civilian - Young is the head of the military on Destiny and he has a couple of attack dogs out there. It doesn't have to be though, it's just the way that Young has set it up with his inability to listen and communicate. He bought it on himself, and even admitted to it... even though he made no great headway to solve the problems, he just ignored them. Not the sign of a good leader either.

Deevil
August 15th, 2010, 12:16 AM
The civillians should not have any more control over Destiny than they already do.

And the military should not have the control of the ship that they already do. This is not a military exercise anymore, it stopped being one when they were hurled a few billion light years from Earth.


Voting for issues on a ship is foolhardy.

I didn't say voting for issues, I said voting for leadership.


If they were somehow still on Icarus Base with their Stargate destroyed and the Lucian Alliance blockading the planet there would be no question that Young would still be in charge.

That is an entirely different situation. They are still within the bounds of Earth finding them with a ship. Destiny is not.


Joint civillian/military leadership is not right.

It's the only thing that is right. Military dictatorships are not right.


Civillians should not be making decisons on military matters. And everything on Destiny is a military matter.

BS it is. Everything on Destiny is far from being a military matter.


And what bad decisons has Young made? Besides his questionable action of leaving Rush on a planet, of which I have no problem.

You have no problem with him acting as judge, jury and executioner. No issue that he is the most well versed scientist with ancient tech, and getting rid of him could potentially be disasterous for those on board? Righty-o.


The only decisons he has made that I disagree with were those he made in Incursion when he choose not to defend the gate, vent the atmosphere, and then surrender all his people to execution. Up until Incursion every decision he made I aggreed with.

What about his lack of decisions. His inability in Light to decide the best and most viable team to 'live', rather he ridiculously decides on a lotto. His inability to listen when Rush assures him the information in the chair is important (which clearly it was). What about his inability to listen when Rush tells him to stop using power? Or to listen to any scientist what-so-ever?

It takes more to be a leader then showing up and barking orders - something which may have been acceptable on Icarus, but something which is not in any way acceptable on Destiny. I'd bloody well plot of overthrow him too...

Sami_
August 15th, 2010, 12:20 AM
The reason she doesn't go through the proper channels is because she and her own superiors are IOA, their MO when they don't get what they want is to replace a leader or threaten to cut budgets but they don't sit down to talk and actually find solutions to problems, their bully tactics work on earth because of the bureaucracy. Lets not pretend that she doesn't go to O'Neill because she doesn't think that Young would listen to him, we've already seen that he does, she doesn't go to O'Neill because he sees him as the enemy - she doesn't respect the chain of command.

I don't even think her IOA superiors support her actions of mutiny, if they did care about who is in command as much as she does then they could put pressure on O'Neill to make that change - but they haven't.

Deevil
August 15th, 2010, 12:27 AM
Sami_ I don't care what O'Neill or the IOA think or believe (and don't believe that the military don't use bully tactics on the IOA either). They are not on the Destiny, they have no actual control over the Destiny or those on the Destiny. They are simply a crutch, a sense of normalicy right now, they are not anything more or less.

Wray did what she thought was right given the situation that Young created. I don't blame her and probably would have done the same thing, just not in the same way.

Sami_
August 15th, 2010, 12:39 AM
Wray's mutiny just doesn't make any sense, like numerous reviewers and casual viewers who are able to critique the show without bias have noted - the conflicts are convoluted and petty and as such its hard to justify mutiny.

The only thing that Young has done that is a genuine reason to remove him from command is leaving Rush on that planet, however, people like to forget that he and Wray were trying to frame him for murder so I don't see how they can take the moral highground. If they had been caught trying to frame someone for murder on earth they would probably find themselves in a prison cell, they are criminals in my eyes.

Lahela
August 15th, 2010, 12:42 AM
Wray's mutiny just doesn't make any sense, like numerous reviewers and casual viewers who are able to critique the show without bias have noted - the conflicts are convoluted and petty and as such its hard to justify mutiny.

The only thing that Young has done that is a genuine reason to remove him from command is leaving Rush on that planet, however, people like to forget that he and Wray were trying to frame him for murder so I don't see how they can take the moral highground. If they had been caught trying to frame someone for murder on earth they would probably find themselves in a prison cell, they are criminals in my eyes.

Sorry, what? Wray was trying to do what?

GateroomGuard
August 15th, 2010, 12:44 AM
And the military should not have the control of the ship that they already do. This is not a military exercise anymore, it stopped being one when they were hurled a few billion light years from Earth.

Nothing has changed. Icarus Base has for all intents and purposes simply relocated to Destiny and is simply unable to resupply. They still have the stones and a communication line back to Earth. The chain of command is still intact. It would be no different if the Destiny crew had ended up on gateless planet in the Milky Way. The only thing that is different is that they will have to wait for a longer rescue. Proximity to Earth does not change the fact that this is still a SGC military base.


I didn't say voting for issues, I said voting for leadership.

Have the leader of Destiny be elected? I don't agree. The military isn't a democracy. Young is in command because he has the highest rank, that is all he needs.


That is an entirely different situation. They are still within the bounds of Earth finding them with a ship. Destiny is not.

Should the first Abydos mission have been a civillian led operation once they were trapped? Should Daniel have taken over command from O'Neill? Atlantis was fine with Weir as the leader because she was supposed to be leader. Just like if the Destiny mission had gone as planned Telford would have been the leader. So if a military commander was going to be in command anyway it stands to reason Young is well within his rights to be commander. They are stuck yes, that doesn't mean you through chain of command out the window.


It's the only thing that is right. Military dictatorships are not right. ...

The Destiny is not a state, a country, or even a colony. It is an SGC mission. The Destiny is under military command just like Icarus was under military command and just like the SGC on Earth is under military command. They all anwer to the President of the United States. Therefore Destiny can not be a military dictatorship as the President of the United States is ultimately the leader of the Destiny crew.


BS it is. Everything on Destiny is far from being a military matter.

The SGC is a military organization. Icarus Base was a military base. The Destiny is inhabited by Icarus base personel. Thus it is a military vessel. The rations onboard a military matter, the air is a military matter, anything that deals with the safety of the ship is a military matter.


You have no problem with him acting as judge, jury and executioner. No issue that he is the most well versed scientist with ancient tech, and getting rid of him could potentially be disasterous for those on board? Righty-o. ...

In my mind Young is captain of the Destiny, Rush was a mutineer and told Young he would never stop trying to overthrow him. Should Young have taken matters into his own hands? I believe Young may have been legally wrong, but in my mind he was morally right. And so what if Rush is the most knowledable guy on the ship, Young still has Eli who Rush admits is smarter than he is along with all the other scientists. If Anubis was stuck on Destiny and he pulled something I don't think anyone would have a problem getting rid of him even though he knows a lot about Ancient tech.


What about his lack of decisions. His inability in Light to decide the best and most viable team to 'live', rather he ridiculously decides on a lotto. His inability to listen when Rush assures him the information in the chair is important (which clearly it was). What about his inability to listen when Rush tells him to stop using power? Or to listen to any scientist what-so-ever?

I agree with his decision in Light. Let everyone have an equal shot at survival, when it comes to surviving on an unknown alien planet there really isn't anyone qualified. And I would be hesitant to believe the man that stranded myself and everyone onboard the Destiny, Rush has done nothing to earn Young's trust on these issues. Rush has shown Young he has no compulsions about sacrificing people to acheive success on Destiny which is why Young is so hesitant to do whatever Rush tells him to do. The chair WAS dangerous, look what happend to Franklin. And with Wray in charge she gave Rush a blank check to do whatever he wanted and in the process Destiny lost one of her best scientists. Young is needed to reign in Rush.


It takes more to be a leader then showing up and barking orders - something which may have been acceptable on Icarus, but something which is not in any way acceptable on Destiny. I'd bloody well plot of overthrow him too...

Well we'd be on opposite sides of the mutiny then. I'm a civillian myself and in that stiuation I'd perfer Col. Young to be in charge making all the decisions.

Deevil
August 15th, 2010, 12:44 AM
Wray's mutiny just doesn't make any sense, like numerous reviewers and casual viewers who are able to critique the show without bias have noted - the conflicts are convoluted and petty and as such its hard to justify mutiny.

I think the mutiny made sense, it would have made less sense for there not to be a battle for power. As for your numerous viewers, what does that prove exactly? That there are a bunch of people on each side of the debate? Well there tends to be.

BTW - Wray never tried to frame Young for murder, Rush did that, that of course does not give him the right to leave him for dead on a planet after pummeling him - so I don't much care about his motivation for it. It was not the actions of someone you want in charge of your welfare.

And if Young were caught trying to kill someone he'd be in jail too - for a lot longer then Rush's set-up. He is also a criminal, but worse, he is a criminal in power.

Sami_
August 15th, 2010, 12:48 AM
Sorry, what? Wray was trying to do what?


RUSH: The colonel's dangerous.

WRAY: We need to do something about that.

RUSH: I tried.

WRAY: I know.

RUSH: Damn near killed me for it.

(Camille walks closer and looks into his face.)

WRAY: Next time will be different.

She was overseeing a trial she knew to be unjust.

Deevil
August 15th, 2010, 12:55 AM
Nothing has changed.

Everything has changed and the chain of command is only superficially in tact, it was circumvented within the first 10 episodes at least once.


The Destiny is not a state, a country, or even a colony. It is an SGC mission.

It was intended to be a SGC mission, that didn't happen. It is now a colony and they have to move towards that end. The Destiny is not a military base.


In my mind Young is captain of the Destiny, Rush was a mutineer...

Rush is a civilian, he can not be a mutineer. Young was both morally and legally wrong here as he put the whole ship is danger. Eli is young, and he is green. He is not capable of taking over from Rush.


I agree with his decision in Light. Let everyone have an equal shot at survival, when it comes to surviving on an unknown alien planet there really isn't anyone qualified.

But he didn't. He sent a bunch of people who may, or may not have the expertise to survive on a planet out into the wilderness. That is stupid because if more then one of them were a weak link it would kill them all. You give them the best shot of survival by sending people who can survive, can grow plaints and identify plant matter to eat - you don't have a pot luck. It was ridiculous.


The chair WAS dangerous, look what happend to Franklin.

Yes, it is dangerous. Unfortunately in the situation they are in danger cannot circumvented. Sometimes someone will need to make a decision that will sacrifice someone, and Young is clearly incapable of it.


And with Wray in charge she gave Rush a blank check to do whatever he wanted and in the process Destiny lost one of her best scientists.

That's not what happened at all. Rush had nothing to do with Franklin sitting in that shair, Franklin made the decision on his own.


Well we'd be on opposite sides of the mutiny then. I'm a civillian myself and in that stiuation I'd perfer Col. Young to be in charge making all the decisions.

What decisions. I'm going to leave people to die because I'm pissed? I'm going to torture a man? I am not going to make decisions to give the survivors the maximum chance of survival? Yeah - I'll get rid of Young.

Deevil
August 15th, 2010, 12:56 AM
She was overseeing a trial she knew to be unjust.

That happened after the trial! You are getting your episodes confused.

Lahela
August 15th, 2010, 12:57 AM
She was overseeing a trial she knew to be unjust.

She was overseeing a trial that was appropriate given the circumstances. The weapon had been found in Young's quarters, it was the only evidence they had or could conceivably get. What was she supposed to do? Ignore it? That's why we have trials - to establish guilt or innocence.

Sami_
August 15th, 2010, 01:01 AM
That happened after the trial! You are getting your episodes confused.

Uh.. I'm not confusing anything, I know it happened after the trial, what does that prove?

Shes intelligent enough to realise that Young wouldn't kill anyone in cold blood, I'm fairly sure she knew long before the trial.

Deevil
August 15th, 2010, 01:05 AM
Uh.. I'm not confusing anything, I know it happened after the trial, what does that prove?

Shes intelligent enough to realise that Young wouldn't kill anyone in cold blood, I'm fairly sure she knew long before the trial.

Damn, now Wray is meant to be psychic? She did the only thing she could do, she had a trial because that's where the evidence lead - it would have been wrong of her NOT to insist on a trial. He was found innocent.

Now if her super spider senses were working she should also have known that Young would have left Rush to die on the planet and circumvented that possibility too!

Sami_
August 15th, 2010, 01:08 AM
Damn, now Wray is meant to be psychic? She did the only thing she could do, she had a trial because that's where the evidence lead - it would have been wrong of her NOT to insist on a trial. He was found innocent.

Now if her super spider senses were working she should also have known that Young would have left Rush to die on the planet and circumvented that possibility too!

I knew it wasn't Young, I guess I have super spider senses, go web go!

Deevil
August 15th, 2010, 01:10 AM
I knew it wasn't Young, I guess I have super spider senses, go web go!

You do realise that the characters in the show don't get to see what we see, right? We have access to information that they don't. Wray did the best with the information she had.

Sami_
August 15th, 2010, 01:13 AM
You do realise that the characters in the show don't get to see what we see, right? We have access to information that they don't. Wray did the best with the information she had.

What information did I have that Wray didn't?

Deevil
August 15th, 2010, 01:16 AM
What information did I have that Wray didn't?

9 episodes of character behaviour that wasn't around her to start. I know you don't like Wray, but she can not be held at fault for having a Trial to determine his guilt or innocence. it was the fair thing to do, for everyone on board.

Sami_
August 15th, 2010, 01:20 AM
9 episodes of character behaviour that wasn't around her to start. I know you don't like Wray, but she can not be held at fault for having a Trial to determine his guilt or innocence. it was the fair thing to do, for everyone on board.

Yeah Wray is so fair, she was trying to blame Greer with no evidence, very impartial.

Deevil
August 15th, 2010, 01:24 AM
Yeah Wray is so fair, she was trying to blame Greer with no evidence, very impartial.

She suggested that Greer should be a suspect, that wasn't incorrect. It would have been the first point of call in any investigation. He found the body, he has a clear anger problem and he is aggressive. It would have be wrong of anyone not to suggest that he could have been responsible.

Sami_
August 15th, 2010, 01:30 AM
She suggested that Greer should be a suspect, that wasn't incorrect. It would have been the first point of call in any investigation. He found the body, he has a clear anger problem and he is aggressive. It would have be wrong of anyone not to suggest that he could have been responsible.

Scott seemed to disagree.

All the talk of Young being a military dictator honestly just has to be laughed at when you actually watch the events of Justice, he constantly time and time again refused to be involved, wouldn't let Scott lead the investigation, wouldn't hide the evidence when Scott suggested it, stepped aside and let Wray take charge and when confronted by his military personnel refused their unspoken suggestion to use force to keep him in charge.

Deevil
August 15th, 2010, 01:32 AM
Scott seemed to disagree.

Scott often rules with his heart and not his head. His opinion here doesn't make any sense despite Scott's of investigating crimes and criminal behaviour... ohh, wait a minute, he was never trained to do that.


All the talk of Young being a military dictator honestly just has to be laughed when you actually watch the events of Justice

One instance of doing something right like this does not absolve him of his other bullying actions (many of which I have already noted and will not note again). You think it does, I just happen to disagree.