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GateWorld
April 1st, 2010, 08:54 AM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/universe/s1/112.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/universe/graphics/112.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">UNIVERSE SEASON ONE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/universe/s1/112.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none">DIVIDED</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 112</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
Colonel Young's opponents launch a coup to take control of the ship, pitting the military against civilians.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/universe/s1/112.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Pharaoh Atem
April 9th, 2010, 07:04 PM
much better then the bsg mutiny IMO. for one reason it's not over. :D this crew will never get along. and yet hopefully learned that they are stronger together.

cause if their don't destroy themselves the smurfs will keep trying and trying to get access to destiny

Replicator Todd
April 9th, 2010, 07:04 PM
Fantastic episode! Go Civilians! :P I had a feeling Rush was implanted, I thought Chloe was going to be implanted as well but I suppose not. I was a little sad TJ wasn't on the civilians side but hey I suppose she knows the military better. Glad to see the aliens back so soon. As cool as the mutiny in BSG was this had me on my edge a little more.

s09119
April 9th, 2010, 07:04 PM
Well I thought that was one heck of an episode. I'm still with the civilians, and my guess is that being forced to lie on their stomachs when they could die at any second won't sit well with a lot of them. They have a right to live their lives without a gun pressed to their necks whenever they disagree with the military, and Rush and Wray wanted to make their point without hurting anyone. What they did was no different from the military charging in and gun-smacking anyone who wouldn't kneel immediately, except it was nonviolent and justified.

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
April 9th, 2010, 07:08 PM
i dont know who i would side with but i do for one thing this is not the last we'll see of those blue aliens. i have a feeling we'll see them one more time this season cause in the Universe 1.5 trailer. those aliens make it to the destiny i just dont know what episode we'll see them in.

SupremeLegate
April 9th, 2010, 07:10 PM
I enjoyed this episode; I am really interested in seeing how the events in this episode affect things to come.

Also there is one scene that I really liked, should not be hard to figure out which one. Though I will say that I like it for artistic reasons as well as the obvious.

s09119
April 9th, 2010, 07:11 PM
i dont know who i would side with but i do for one thing this is not the last we'll see of those blue aliens. i have a feeling we'll see them one more time this season cause in the Universe 1.5 trailer. those aliens make it to the destiny i just dont know what episode we'll see them in.

You should spoiler tag that...

jelgate
April 9th, 2010, 07:11 PM
i dont know who i would side with but i do for one thing this is not the last we'll see of those blue aliens. i have a feeling we'll see them one more time this season cause in the Universe 1.5 trailer. those aliens make it to the destiny i just dont know what episode we'll see them in.

This post. It contained spoilers:(

prion
April 9th, 2010, 07:16 PM
This was actually the first episode that really got my interest. Let's see... well, the distrust is going to linger like a blood stain on a white rug. Basically, the whole mess is a power/ego struggle between Young and Rush, and everybody else gets dragged along for the ride.


Chloe and Scott? Well, I guess they'll be back to separate rooms.
Lt. James? No civilian is going to trust her again.
Rush? I can agree with his reasoning, to a point, as yeah, Young would have deep-sixed him out an airlock.
Amazingly, the stones were finally used properly! And I was happy to see Alisen Down (Dr. Brightman, SG1 "Lockdown") appear.
Eli? Man, talk about being left out in the cold...
I liked the music (not the song, nah, not my cup of tea) used in the beginning... I've heard something very similiar, but can't place where.
Young's a putz. Sorry, but he's far too quick to pull the trigger.


The alien spacecraft still remind me of Cylon toasters...

Overall, pretty good!

Pharaoh Atem
April 9th, 2010, 07:17 PM
The alien spacecraft still remind me of Cylon toasters...

Overall, pretty good!

actually the smurfs ships remind me of the ori mother ships but less spectacular when it comes to weapons

kymeric
April 9th, 2010, 07:18 PM
Good episode! Good to see the aliens again, i think we have a series villain now. Something tells me those aliens have been chasing destiny across the universe. They musta caught destiny once while her batteries were low and got thru the sheild. Explaining why the ships all shot to hell. As long as destiny stays powered they should be safe behind the sheild, that makes the gate the only point of entry. They are REALLY lucky the aliens didnt find them during darkness or light or they woulda been effed.

I would shot Wray in the face and at least WOUNDED Rush to give them something to think about. Theyre facing a military threat so the military should be in charge imho.

Nice music on the dream sequence at the beginning!

rsanchez
April 9th, 2010, 07:21 PM
Amazingly, the stones were finally used properly! And I was happy to see Alisen Down (Dr. Brightman, SG1 "Lockdown") appear.

Yeah, this was nice. If they're still going to use the stones, and use them correctly, I'd like to see McKay get the ship figured out. They can't trust Rush, and in all likelihood McKay will probably figure out the ship much more thoroughly than Rush ever can.

s09119
April 9th, 2010, 07:22 PM
Good episode! Good to see the aliens again, i think we have a series villain now. Something tells me those aliens have been chasing destiny across the universe. They musta caught destiny once while her batteries were low and got thru the sheild. Explaining why the ships all shot to hell. As long as destiny stays powered they should be safe behind the sheild, that makes the gate the only point of entry. They are REALLY lucky the aliens didnt find them during darkness or light or they woulda been effed.

I would shot Wray in the face and at least WOUNDED Rush to give them something to think about. Theyre facing a military threat so the military should be in charge imho.

Nice music on the dream sequence at the beginning!

Even the SGC ultimately had civilians calling the shots. If someone on the political side gave an order, Hammond and the military had to obey. There's no reason why the same shouldn't be true on Destiny.

prion
April 9th, 2010, 07:23 PM
FYI

from Twitter
@PatrickGilmore "Welcome to Destiny." The song on tonight's #SGU episode 'Divided' is "You Won't Know" by Brand New.

joeynox
April 9th, 2010, 07:23 PM
great episode ! i love the camera style that is used in sgu, its like wqatching a movie instead of a tv show. once again the acting is superb and chloe add some flare to the episode. i personally would side with the military on this one. the civs are doing this based off of the young / rush feud and they dont even know the whole story. Ive watched every episode atleast 3 times and never felt like the military were controlling the civs wrongly.I hate the ioc. I also hate that wray is ioc and that they call the shots or want to control everything. they always get in the way

good job. brody and volker need beatdowns from greer

TheRandomOne
April 9th, 2010, 07:24 PM
Young & his lap dogs are annoying me now. Well this whole power struggle is getting beyond annoying. Kill some main people so that then maybe these morons will learn to stop dicking around

jelgate
April 9th, 2010, 07:28 PM
Even the SGC ultimately had civilians calling the shots. If someone on the political side gave an order, Hammond and the military had to obey. There's no reason why the same shouldn't be true on Destiny.
You know they kind of why they have people on Earth to do that. Destiny is no more then a operation by the various governments on Earth. Ultimately both the civilians and military report to them like any other military base. Just because they are long away doesn't mean those rules apply

Halzman
April 9th, 2010, 07:28 PM
Meh... overall a decent episode.

In a nut shell:

- Rush a Chloe have nightmares about there 'abduction'
- Rush/Young figure there is a tracking device on the outside of the ships hull
- Rush and Scott take the shuttle to destroy alien ship
- Rush and the IOA lady determine that its a good time for a takeover, cut off military
- Civilian side has control of everything except life support
- Trade some food and water for Eli
- Rush has a tracking device next to his heart / 3 Ships arrive and start shooting at Destiny
- Before Rush boosts power to shields, Young and Greer manage to gain access to ship via alien holes
- Scott lets rest of military in / Young goes for Rush
- Rush and IOA lady feel stupid when Young walks in
- Plan is to wait out the alien ship's fire until ready to jump to FTL
- Before doing so, tracking device is removed
- Ship takes some damage before jumping to FTL
- Civilians feel stupid when Young tells them to go back to there quarters
- IOA lady feels even dumber
/End of episode

I mostly enjoyed the episode, but felt there was a lot of wasted time with unnecessary scenes. The whole Rush and Chloe having nightmares, while related to the previous episode, wasted about 5 minutes of time and could of just been included with a reference such as "still having the nightmares?" which was actually a line used after we saw Chloe's nightmare.

I'm still waiting for Young to drop the "Yea, well you tried to frame me for murder" - The whole "you shouldn't of left Rush on the planet" is getting kind of old. Young didn't have to save Rush from the alien ship - he could of smashed Rush free from the window and then beat his head in (killing him would prevent the aliens from learning anymore then they already have) - and then looked for Chloe. Who knows if Chloe would of made it off the ship then - Scott would of been mad - but, she had no problem screwing Scott over during the takeover...

The fact that Chloe was even on Rush's side was shocking. This season is only supposed to span a period of months relative to time... what happened to all her anger against Rush. Were 12 episodes in, and the first 3 only took up 2 days or so, and most of the episodes only averaged a timespan of about the same, so anywhere from 1-3 months have gone by. She may be on Rush's side because Young left him to die on the planet, but I wonder what she would think of him if she learned the Rush tried to frame Young for murder.


Speaking of making the "hard decisions - the life and death decisions".... Rush wants someone in command who will do it, and when Young finally does, he gets burned for it?

In the end, the plot and story of this episode, well... a quote comes to mind, "theory dieing in the face of practice"

kymeric
April 9th, 2010, 07:30 PM
Even the SGC ultimately had civilians calling the shots. If someone on the political side gave an order, Hammond and the military had to obey. There's no reason why the same shouldn't be true on Destiny.

None of the civilians on destiny have the authority or can be trusted. Rush stranded them all there cuz of his personal need to get to destiny. And Wrays a lowly HR lady, she was always subordinate to Young. Everythings being run the same as it was on icarus, only they cant be fired and sent back home to prison like the could have on icarus. So theyre making power plays.

s09119
April 9th, 2010, 07:32 PM
You know they kind of why they have people on Earth to do that. Destiny is no more then a operation by the various governments on Earth. Ultimately both the civilians and military report to them like any other military base. Just because they are long away doesn't mean those rules apply

They're essentially an independent entity, though, something even Young accepts. He told the Pentagon that he may blatantly ignore orders from Earth as of "Earth," and the civilians seem to be no less happy with their superiors than the military does. In that sense, if they're gonna go it alone out here for the most part, they should have a government to manage life there, and that means civilian leadership.

Yoshi442
April 9th, 2010, 07:32 PM
This was actually the first episode that really got my interest. Let's see... well, the distrust is going to linger like a blood stain on a white rug. Basically, the whole mess is a power/ego struggle between Young and Rush, and everybody else gets dragged along for the ride.

...

Overall, pretty good!

I also liked this episode, but have liked almost all the episodes. My point in replying is that this episode would not work if we did not have the first half of the season's focus on character development. Everything that happened here was believable and inevitable, and I loved it! Great second half of the season so far.

On another note, I found myself cheering for the military to take back over which is a bit strange given that I know I should absolutely be agreeing with everything Wray said about civilian control of the military. But still, I think the military control is the best in this situation--although Young's decision to dump Rush on the planet troubles me. It's so great having imperfect characters! A situation like this could never have arisen on SG1 or SGA, which both had to rely on numerous hostile takeovers by aliens/Genii to create fake tension.

Yoshi442
April 9th, 2010, 07:34 PM
Yeah, this was nice. If they're still going to use the stones, and use them correctly, I'd like to see McKay get the ship figured out. They can't trust Rush, and in all likelihood McKay will probably figure out the ship much more thoroughly than Rush ever can.

Ugh. No McKay ever. He'd solve everything in 5 minutes with time to ***** about 10 things to boot. Came to like him on SGA, but he needs to stay there.

AtlantisRules!!!
April 9th, 2010, 07:38 PM
The fact that TJ didnt join the Civilians made me sad. That didn't seem like her to me. And I thought Scott would sympathize, but when he found Chloe he gave her a look and turned his back.

Go civilians. :p

TheoryCraft
April 9th, 2010, 07:38 PM
That if one's ship has recently come under attack from hostile and obviously dangerous aliens that this would be the wrong time to carry our your mutiny and, you know, lock everyone with the weapons, military training, and combat experience in a room somewhere...

Seriously bad timing (and idea) on the part of the civilians. The military guys may be arrogant jerks, but at least they aren't trying to kill you.

randomking
April 9th, 2010, 07:40 PM
rush wanted to do it right then because of the tracking thingy in his chest....no one ells new they were doing it so soon

Yoshi442
April 9th, 2010, 07:40 PM
The fact that TJ didnt join the Civilians made me sad. That didn't seem like her to me. And I thought Scott would sympathize, but when he found Chloe he gave her a look and turned his back.

Go civilians. :p

Hmm. I never for a moment thought that TJ would side with the civilians. Have we had any indication to the contrary to this point? [Edited: I fixed this part to match what I originally intended to say :-]

And I was glad to see Scott turn his back on Chloe for the time being. I'm sure it will come up again though. Funny that she's ticked off both her suitors now.

creed462
April 9th, 2010, 07:40 PM
That and in their situation the military is their best chance for survival.

TheRandomOne
April 9th, 2010, 07:40 PM
That if one's ship has recently come under attack from hostile and obviously dangerous aliens that this would be the wrong time to carry our your mutiny and, you know, lock everyone with the weapons, military training, and combat experience in a room somewhere...

Seriously bad timing (and idea) on the part of the civilians. The military guys may be arrogant jerks, but at least they aren't trying to kill you.

If Greer had his way he would kill them all & then when even his fellow military guys start whining about not knowing how to fix anything he will kill them to until he is the last one left & he will just laugh to death

Pharaoh Atem
April 9th, 2010, 07:41 PM
the smurfs ships might not had registered on the destiny's sensors until after rush had stated the transfer and thus the munity couldn't stop.

yes bad timing

s09119
April 9th, 2010, 07:42 PM
That if one's ship has recently come under attack from hostile and obviously dangerous aliens that this would be the wrong time to carry our your mutiny and, you know, lock everyone with the weapons, military training, and combat experience in a room somewhere...

Seriously bad timing (and idea) on the part of the civilians. The military guys may be arrogant jerks, but at least they aren't trying to kill you.

A few things:

1.) The civilians didn't know they'd come under attack when they started the mutiny.
2.) The military personnel would be pretty useless, considering the aliens were blasting at the ship from afar, not sending boarding parties. If it came to fending off invaders, well, the shields would already be down so they could just switch to weapons and blast apart the craft trying to land on them.
3.) ...that's basically it.

Pharaoh Atem
April 9th, 2010, 07:42 PM
The fact that TJ didnt join the Civilians made me sad. That didn't seem like her to me. And I thought Scott would sympathize, but when he found Chloe he gave her a look and turned his back.

Go civilians. :p

i've always seen TJ on the military's side. long before this ep.

TheRandomOne
April 9th, 2010, 07:43 PM
That and in their situation the military is their best chance for survival.

In this cause the choices Young wanted were wrong. If they wasted the power on firing weapons they would not have had any to go into FTL & they all would have been dead. Military as these episodes are showing are not always the best strategy. So far Young has been a ****ty leader

TheRandomOne
April 9th, 2010, 07:46 PM
I think the military guys would rather be left on some random planet & as long as Young is in command they would be okay with that

Halzman
April 9th, 2010, 07:48 PM
Just wanted to say something in regard to the military and civilian aspect of the episode.

While yes, it is true, that in modern society a military should take orders from a civilian leadership.

The problem is, which I think is this case, its like handing a loaded gun to an untrained user. They may be old enough to have it, but that doesn't mean they know how to operate it safely.

Look at SGA for example, Weir had command of the expedition and the military followed her orders - although in that situation, ever person there was trained, skilled, and good at what they did. In fact, now that I'm thinking about it, every time a problem occurred, the military stepped in and that was it, until the threat was dealt with. Bottom line, they should both work together, but this puts more of a strain on the civilian leadership because its there responsibility to be able to effectively manage the military by understanding its capabilities and needs to do certain things a certain way. A military officer doesn't need to know how politics work to cooperate with the military, but politicians needs to know how the military does things in order to avoid unneccessary collateral damage.

The ultimate irony though, is that the people on board the Destiny are in the position they are in because of a civilian; Rush. Had everyone listened to the military in the first place, and dialed Earth, there would of been no problem except that they never would of went to Destiny. And ever since then, every time a civilian tries to grab power because they feel they should be in control, things get messed up.

They need to realize that they are still evading from an enemy attack. The attack at Icarus, was only the beginning - that was the escape. Theirs a reason why certain military jobs are taught SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape). Until they get home, they are still evading, and no amount of politics are going to help anyone except for the politicians.

rsanchez
April 9th, 2010, 07:49 PM
I think the military guys would rather be left on some random planet & as long as Young is in command they would be okay with that

Not a chance. If that was the case, they would have done so already. Then again, the preview for next week's episode showed them on a supposedly paradise planet so maybe that theory will be tested.

Laxian of Earth
April 9th, 2010, 07:51 PM
This was actually the first episode that really got my interest. Let's see... well, the distrust is going to linger like a blood stain on a white rug. Basically, the whole mess is a power/ego struggle between Young and Rush, and everybody else gets dragged along for the ride.


Chloe and Scott? Well, I guess they'll be back to separate rooms.
Lt. James? No civilian is going to trust her again.
Rush? I can agree with his reasoning, to a point, as yeah, Young would have deep-sixed him out an airlock.
Amazingly, the stones were finally used properly! And I was happy to see Alisen Down (Dr. Brightman, SG1 "Lockdown") appear.
Eli? Man, talk about being left out in the cold...
I liked the music (not the song, nah, not my cup of tea) used in the beginning... I've heard something very similiar, but can't place where.
Young's a putz. Sorry, but he's far too quick to pull the trigger.


The alien spacecraft still remind me of Cylon toasters...

Overall, pretty good!

young is not only quick with the trigger (most "real" military types are), but (like in rush says in "space": The colonel is DANGEROUS - how this guy (cheating, adultering, law ignoring (UCMJ), betraying, doublecrossing, choleric, dumb thug without any braincells left to speak of (the one he has has multiple personality dissorder!)) got through psych evaluation is beyond me! (even more: how this ass*ole can take a nice woman like TJ for himself (and "corrupt" her)?....somehow hot girls often fly for idiots....strange, that is)

as for the episode: normally i am on the side of the military (didn't like weier in SG-1/SGA - and Wolsey was not my cup of tea either (also i like the actor very much)) but in this i am pro civillian (even more so as it's the civillians who have most of the technological knowledge of the ship on their side (Rush!) - without them destiny would have already been boarded in "space") because civilian like (also i am one) talking, debating and such is not mine (i'd rather act - fast and decisive!)...weir couldn't do that IMHO and wolsey couldn't either (rush on the other hand can - i am sure of it :) so yes, i have switched sides for SGU :) even more so as i don't like a single person from the "platoon" they have tagging along on the ship

as for the rest of the military "crew"? - one of them is as bad as young (that sergeant that was in jail in Episode one for beating a superiour), the other (scott i think - well the one that sleeps with chloe (by - IMHO - taking advantage of her being emotionally down and alone (she is the only one that has no "function" on the ship...more or less saying: she is useless and does feel that, too!)) is a follower (he always does what young says - only once he does something else as he tries to save his "entertainment" (chloe)) and he is selfish (and i would go as far as predicting: he is a turncoat - if the civilians succede he will turn tail!)

well back to the episode: just wanted to say that i think the civialians cause is just and right (and that the military "leaders" they have are not worth s*it - so it is no wonder that they are looking for "new management" :D

greetings LAX
ps: @halzman: don't they say in the first episode that they CAN'T dial earth with that stargate (as it has been wired into the planets core (for energy) and changed (in order to be able to dial destiny in the first place)?
pps: as for yoshi something (sorry) - saying that in SGA they needed "FAKE" tension...sorry buddy, it is just a fact that for missions like that one sends the best (people that only have "minor" imperfections) and not the crew from the next SOAP-OPERA (like happening here - with a few "good" characters being left: rush, eli, chloe, that IOA chick...and maybe (also siding with young got me upset) TJ - yes, most of them have flaws (rush is a mckay gone bad (and a little less genius (also he does not have mckays tools - would like to see mckay without his lab stuff :D ))), eli is a nerd (online gaming!) so that is his flaw, chloe? - has no real function (and does not, say ask eli to teach her things so that she has something to do beside *****ing around), TJ - well let's idiots have her like a cheap harlot (flaw found) but otherwise is pretty likeable ;)
as for saying SGA people do not have flaws: i could give you a flaw for anyone of them (even sheppard and weier)
ppps: yes! - they should vote for something like: MAYOR of the Destiny! (military excluded - except if they stepp down (or if voted in - in a fair vote - with a large majority))

TheRandomOne
April 9th, 2010, 07:51 PM
Not a chance. If that was the case, they would have done so already. Then again, the preview for next week's episode showed them on a supposedly paradise planet so maybe that theory will be tested.

Well so far all of the planets they have been to were not very life friendly. Once even Greer gets annoyed of the Civilians he would rather pick a planet & stay on it I bet

Replicator Todd
April 9th, 2010, 07:53 PM
The fact that TJ didnt join the Civilians made me sad. That didn't seem like her to me. And I thought Scott would sympathize, but when he found Chloe he gave her a look and turned his back.

Go civilians. :p

Yeah I thought she was going to join the civilians too even if she was military before.

TheRandomOne
April 9th, 2010, 07:54 PM
young is not only quick with the trigger (most "real" military types are), but (like in rush says in "space": The colonel is DANGEROUS - how this guy (cheating, adultering, law ignoring (UCMJ), betraying, doublecrossing, choleric, dumb thug without any braincells left to speak of (the one he has has multiple personality dissorder!))

how this guy got through psych evaluation is beyond me! (even more: how this ass*ole can take a nice woman like TJ for himself?....somehow hot girls often fly for idiots....strange, that is)

as for the episode: normally i am on the side of the military (didn't like weier in SG-1/SGA - and Wolsey was not my cup of tea either (also i like the actor very much)) but in this i am pro civillian (even more so as it's the civillians who have most of the technological knowledge of the ship on their side (Rush!) - without them destiny would have already been boarded in "space") because civilian like (also i am one) talking, debating and such is not mine (i'd rather act - fast and decisive!)...weir couldn't do that IMHO and wolsey couldn't either (rush on the other hand can - i am sure of it :) so yes, i have switched sides for SGU :) even more so as i don't like a single person from the "platoon" they have tagging along on the ship

as for the rest of the military "crew"? - one of them is as bad as young (that sergeant that was in jail in Episode one for beating a superiour), the other (scott i think - well the one that sleeps with chloe (by - IMHO - taking advantage of her being emotionally down and alone (she is the only one that has no "function" on the ship...more or less saying: she is useless and does feel that, too!)) is a follower (he always does what young says - only once he does something else as he tries to save his "entertainment" (chloe)) and he is selfish (and i would go as far as predicting: he is a turncoat - if the civilians succede he will turn tail!)

well back to the episode: just wanted to say that i think the civialians cause is just and right (and that the military "leaders" they have are not worth s*it - so it is no wonder that they are looking for "new management" :D

greetings LAX

I find it hard to believe that Young looked up to Jack O'Neill. If they ever make it home I want Young discharged & not honorably

creed462
April 9th, 2010, 07:55 PM
Very foolish move on the civilian front. They need decisive leadership, Young has proven that. Wray proved once again that she doesn't need to be in command any one who cares more about power then peoples lives should not lead. Now Rush is difficult he had very important knowledge and until Eli is up to speed, they need him but can not trust him. Young does have an anger problem, he is aware up it so he may keep it in check, but still an issue, the situation is interesting.

Pharaoh Atem
April 9th, 2010, 07:56 PM
I find it hard to believe that Young looked up to Jack O'Neill. If they ever make it home I want Young discharged & not honorably

he's commanding a group of people who didn't ask to be put into this amazing situation. what else can he do. the military is on his sides. the civians whine about how tough things are but also forget who put them there. cause it wasn't young.

TheRandomOne
April 9th, 2010, 07:58 PM
he's commanding a group of people who didn't ask to be put into this amazing situation. what else can he do. the military is on his sides. the civians whine about how tough things are but also forget who put them there. cause it wasn't young.

Military or not Young is doing nothing but showing why he should not be in charge. If that ship did not know to recharge by itself it would have exploded soon after they boarded or something like that. Military or not NONE of the military of the civilians are fit to lead these people especially Young

General Jumper One
April 9th, 2010, 07:59 PM
I'm on the civilian's side, Young should not have left Rush out to die 1) it is not the stargate way, 2) Eventually they would run into trouble and Rush wouldn't be there to get them out!

SupremeLegate
April 9th, 2010, 08:00 PM
[LIST]
Chloe and Scott? Well, I guess they'll be back to separate rooms.


I am looking forward to seeing how that plays out, though I doubt it will end with Chloe getting with Eli. At least not for another season for two.

Pharaoh Atem
April 9th, 2010, 08:00 PM
I'm on the civilian's side, Young should not have left Rush out to die 1) it is not the stargate way, 2) Eventually they would run into trouble and Rush wouldn't be there to get them out!

rush framed young for murder. would you just look the other way if you were in young's shoes.>?

Tyjos
April 9th, 2010, 08:00 PM
Good Episode! I missed the first bit But I'll catch it later on.....

Forgot it was time for a new ep...always happens.

Can't wait for next week's episode!

Pharaoh Atem
April 9th, 2010, 08:02 PM
Military or not Young is doing nothing but showing why he should not be in charge. If that ship did not know to recharge by itself it would have exploded soon after they boarded or something like that. Military or not NONE of the military of the civilians are fit to lead these people especially Young

young's been a very fair leader IMO he's only lost control once and that was in justice. and young also admitted he regretted it. has everything young's done been perfect no. but find me something that HAS gone right for these people??

jelgate
April 9th, 2010, 08:03 PM
Military or not Young is doing nothing but showing why he should not be in charge. If that ship did not know to recharge by itself it would have exploded soon after they boarded or something like that. Military or not NONE of the military of the civilians are fit to lead these people especially YoungMost of which is not Young's fault. He can't be held responsible for the ship breaking down when they got there

TheRandomOne
April 9th, 2010, 08:04 PM
rush framed young for murder. would you just look the other way if you were in young's shoes.>?

Young left Rush to die & lied about it. Young has no problems leaving Rush to die a second time & Chloe without even trying anything. Two alien attacks & the decisions Young was making would have resulted in the Aliens taking over the Destiny & killing most & taking some prisoner for info & not to mention if say Young's personal problems with TJ & his wife & LDP got out Young is not much of a leader. Sure Rush did a ****ty thing but Young has done far worse stuff that would have resulted in lots of deaths as well. Both Young & Rush suck equally in their own ways

General Jumper One
April 9th, 2010, 08:04 PM
rush framed young for murder. would you just look the other way if you were in young's shoes.>?

I wouldn't look the other way, but I wouldn't have left him, I just would have locked him up the way Telford did to Greer.

hedwig
April 9th, 2010, 08:04 PM
Did I miss something?

When Chloe used one of the stones to get a doctor to remove the tracking device from Rush, I'm wondering why it worked. The alien vessels were again in close proximity to the Destiny, and when Young attempted to use one last week to communicate with earth, he was transported to one of the alien ships, and it was assumed that happened because the two ships were in such close proximity.

So why didn't Chloe wind up on one of the alien ships instead of making it back to earth to get a doctor?

:confused:

prion
April 9th, 2010, 08:04 PM
Very foolish move on the civilian front. They need decisive leadership, Young has proven that. Wray proved once again that she doesn't need to be in command any one who cares more about power then peoples lives should not lead. Now Rush is difficult he had very important knowledge and until Eli is up to speed, they need him but can not trust him. Young does have an anger problem, he is aware up it so he may keep it in check, but still an issue, the situation is interesting.

Young has basically betrayed a leadership role by stranding Rush on the planet and lying about it> however, Rush is no better, framing Young for a murder. I really wouldn't trust either of them. And anger management problems are not good for someone who carries a gun....

Gallienus
April 9th, 2010, 08:05 PM
I didn't find this episode particularly satisfying. It's not that it didn't have high points or tension, it did, but I felt it was a mixed bag. I actually have to disagree with the first post in that i enjoyed the BSG mutiny ark (well the equivalent episode would have been "The Oath") much more than this. On the upside I'm sure they'll come back to the events that took place here, and I'm hopeful what comes later will be more interesting and fulfilling.

If I had to pick one thing that just didn't work for me was the "reset-button-esque" ending, where everyone just sort of accepted the fait accompli without even the slightest bit of irritation. And the "I guess we'll have to find a way to work together" bit from Wray was really off-putting, especially considering the whole thing had just ended. Where's the acrimony? Where's the rage? Where's the disaffection? Did everyone just forget about it? Were the civvies just not interested in the whole thing? Maybe I missed something, I'll still give SGU the benefit of the doubt, but I really wish I'd enjoyed the episode more. Oh well, there's always next week.

TheRandomOne
April 9th, 2010, 08:05 PM
Most of which is not Young's fault. He can't be held responsible for the ship breaking down when they got there

Even so he would rather have no power & shields on the ship & buy time for FTL with the shields. He would rather let these aliens come on to the ship & take it over

s09119
April 9th, 2010, 08:07 PM
rush framed young for murder. would you just look the other way if you were in young's shoes.>?

If he's as selfless and concerned for the crew as he claims to be? Yes.

Pharaoh Atem
April 9th, 2010, 08:07 PM
Did I miss something?

When Chloe used one of the stones to get a doctor to remove the tracking device from Rush, I'm wondering why it worked. The alien vessels were again in close proximity to the Destiny, and when Young attempted to use one last week to communicate with earth, he was transported to one of the alien ships, and it was assumed that happened because the two ships were in such close proximity.

So why didn't Chloe wind up on one of the alien ships instead of making it back to earth to get a doctor?

:confused:

i think it's assumed it was the aliens in counter with rush. but i could be wrong.

General Jumper One
April 9th, 2010, 08:07 PM
Did I miss something?

When Chloe used one of the stones to get a doctor to remove the tracking device from Rush, I'm wondering why it worked. The alien vessels were again in close proximity to the Destiny, and when Young attempted to use one last week to communicate with earth, he was transported to one of the alien ships, and it was assumed that happened because the two ships were in such close proximity.

So why didn't Chloe wind up on one of the alien ships instead of making it back to earth to get a doctor?

:confused:

When Young used the stones, the alien might've been connected using the stone Rush might've had, then Rush killed that alien thus killing the connection.

the fifth man
April 9th, 2010, 08:08 PM
Very good episode tonight, at least IMO. Things are definitely very tense on-board Destiny, no doubt about that. They all have a long way to go.

Avenger
April 9th, 2010, 08:09 PM
Unless the aliens decided to send boarding parties, the military personnel haven't really done anything to fend off the attacks, short of Scott and Greer in the shuttle. It was Eli and Brody who were operating the systems during the first attack. So to say that they need the military while being attacked by the aliens isn't really that accurate.

Now, going forward, there are definitely going to be times when the military folks are necessary, particularly in a security capacity when on planets.

jelgate
April 9th, 2010, 08:09 PM
Even so he would rather have no power & shields on the ship & buy time for FTL with the shields. He would rather let these aliens come on to the ship & take it over

That has nothing to do with the frame of our debate. We were talking pre-Divided. At least I thought we were.

creed462
April 9th, 2010, 08:10 PM
Young still ceded to Eli, I not saying he is perfect, He's not, he has shown survival skills that most on the crew do not have, that is why I think Young is there best bet at this time.

TheRandomOne
April 9th, 2010, 08:12 PM
That has nothing to do with the frame of our debate. We were talking pre-Divided. At least I thought we were.

Young wanted to do the same things & then some during their first encounter so I guess what I am saying could apply pre Divided

the fifth man
April 9th, 2010, 08:16 PM
Young still ceded to Eli, I not saying he is perfect, He's not, he has shown survival skills that most on the crew do not have, that is why I think Young is there best bet at this time.

I still have a lot of faith in Young. He is in no way the perfect man for the job, but I think he is the best on-board. The crew definitely needs to come together more. They need to stop fighting amongst themselves.

_SocraticMethod
April 9th, 2010, 08:17 PM
Wow, this episode was fantastic! I actually think it's going to replace "Justice" as my favourite SGU episode so far.

I've got to start off by saying, I could not stand the song they played during Chloe's dream sequence in the opening tease - I found it annoying and distracting. But that's pretty much my only complaint about this episode.

This episode was so suspenseful. My heart was quite literally pounding all the way through! This episode had everything: action, politics, a bit of a thriller feel, psychological cat and mouse, a touch of humour. And what's more, it had me holding my breath right down to the very end. It was also nice to see how all of that character development plays into the action that's taking place now; i.e. Eli being caught in the middle, the subtle beats between Scott and Chloe, Greer's loyalty to Young.

Funniest line in the episode: Greer - "They're fine. I went easy on them." ...I actually laughed out loud at this! (As a side note, I really like the way Greer's character is developing.)

Oh, one other little quibble - the surgery scene. The way that wrapped up was a bit implausible, but then again, this isn't a medical drama, and there's only so much time in an episode, so I can live with that.

Finally, Young's line at the end ("Don't you think I know that.") was a nice touch. I'm very glad to see that kind of contrition and honesty from him. A very respectable leader, in my opinion.

Pharaoh Atem
April 9th, 2010, 08:19 PM
I've got to start off by saying, I could not stand the song they played during Chloe's dream sequence in the opening tease - I found it annoying and distracting. But that's pretty much my only complaint about this episode.

T.

asd we know chloe is depressed and now she's walking down a hallway alone and a song that bring up hanging comes on screen. hmmmm made me wonder.

jelgate
April 9th, 2010, 08:19 PM
Young wanted to do the same things & then some during their first encounter so I guess what I am saying could apply pre Divided

Well on a prior knowledge basis it seems quite foolish to let a bunch of aliens continue shooting at you without firing back. Unless you want to be a firey corpse. As for Divided once Eli thought it was the right idea Young did comply.

randomking
April 9th, 2010, 08:20 PM
In this cause the choices Young wanted were wrong. If they wasted the power on firing weapons they would not have had any to go into FTL & they all would have been dead. Military as these episodes are showing are not always the best strategy. So far Young has been a ****ty leader

yes but if rush would have told young he is physic (he knew they had too boost the shields and just guns would not work this time) and point out that the "big gun" would not take out 3 "big ships" befor shields fail

the fifth man
April 9th, 2010, 08:21 PM
Wow, this episode was fantastic! I actually think it's going to replace "Justice" as my favourite SGU episode so far.

I've got to start off by saying, I could not stand the song they played during Chloe's dream sequence in the opening tease - I found it annoying and distracting. But that's pretty much my only complaint about this episode.

This episode was so suspenseful. My heart was quite literally pounding all the way through! This episode had everything: action, politics, a bit of a thriller feel, psychological cat and mouse, a touch of humour. And what's more, it had me holding my breath right down to the very end. It was also nice to see how all of that character development plays into the action that's taking place now; i.e. Eli being caught in the middle, the subtle beats between Scott and Chloe, Greer's loyalty to Young.

Funniest line in the episode: Greer - "They're okay. I went easy on them." ...I actually laughed out loud at this! (As a side note, I really like the way Greer's character is developing.)

Oh, one other little quibble - the surgery scene. The way that wrapped up was a bit implausible, but then again, this isn't a medical drama, and there's only so much time in an episode, so I can live with that.

Finally, Young's line at the end ("Don't you think I know that.") was a nice touch. I'm very glad to see that kind of contrition and honesty from him. A very respectable leader, in my opinion.

That was a nice touch. Of course he knows he screwed up big time by leaving Rush stranded on that planet. He knows it will take a very long time, if ever, for some people to forgive that error of his.

Coronach
April 9th, 2010, 08:22 PM
That and in their situation the military is their best chance for survival.

Not sure what you mean, as the military (quite literally) had nothing to do with the survival of the Destiny crew in this episode. It was entirely the expertise of a civilian scientists (i.e. Rush...and Eli to an extent). In some situations, though, the military is definitely key to survival.

s09119
April 9th, 2010, 08:24 PM
That was a nice touch. Of course he knows he screwed up big time by leaving Rush stranded on that planet. He knows it will take a very long time, if ever, for some people to forgive that error of his.

I think he also knows, to some extent, that the civilians have a point. And humiliating them like the military did is only going to strain the two groups more.

Coronach
April 9th, 2010, 08:24 PM
That was a nice touch. Of course he knows he screwed up big time by leaving Rush stranded on that planet. He knows it will take a very long time, if ever, for some people to forgive that error of his.

I agree that it was nice to see this. It goes a little way to redeeming Young in my eyes. I don't think he's a terrible leader, and I like that he's relatively rational about most things. But he certainly has a lot of flaws...which is certainly to be expected, don't get me wrong.

PG15
April 9th, 2010, 08:26 PM
WOW. WOW. WOOOOOOW.

More coherent thoughts later perhaps.

Replicator Todd
April 9th, 2010, 08:27 PM
WOW. WOW. WOOOOOOW.

More coherent thoughts later perhaps.

IMO thats pretty coherent. :P

Pharaoh Atem
April 9th, 2010, 08:27 PM
IMO thats pretty coherent. :P

for PG ;)

Shan Bruce Lee
April 9th, 2010, 08:28 PM
Season 1.5 is off to a great start.

I'm about 75-25% military. I don't completely disagree with the civilians, but if I had to choose between having Young or Rush in charge it'd be Young hands down.


The fact that TJ didnt join the Civilians made me sad. That didn't seem like her to me. And I thought Scott would sympathize, but when he found Chloe he gave her a look and turned his back.

Go civilians. :p

She's military. They're not likely to join a revolt even if they agree with it in principal (which she doesn't)

_SocraticMethod
April 9th, 2010, 08:30 PM
That was a nice touch. Of course he knows he screwed up big time by leaving Rush stranded on that planet. He knows it will take a very long time, if ever, for some people to forgive that error of his.

Definitely. And I think that it will take even longer, if ever, for Young to forgive himself.

All in all, I appreciate a hero that's fallible; it shows that he's human.

creed462
April 9th, 2010, 08:31 PM
There have been situations when the scientists could not focus on the situation, They can work the equipment but have no structure, Young and his men add that structure to keep them focused.

Gamma626
April 9th, 2010, 08:35 PM
As much as I liked Space and Time, I felt Divided is the best episode of the series so far. Anyone agree?

Cory Holmes
April 9th, 2010, 08:35 PM
Definitely. And I think that it will take even longer, if ever, for Young to forgive himself.

All in all, I appreciate a hero that's fallible; it shows that he's human.

This. Truth.

_SocraticMethod
April 9th, 2010, 08:37 PM
As much as I liked Space and Time, I felt Divided is the best episode of the series so far. Anyone agree?

Agreed!! In fact, I just changed my favourite SGU episode on my profile to "Divided"! :) Loved it!

EvenstarSRV
April 9th, 2010, 08:38 PM
Pretty good episode, though I'm a bit disappointed the division didn't last that long. It's funny, I thought the first half was a bit slow-paced at times and now I'm finding the 2nd half to be rushing things in a way, getting Rush back within one episode and now starting and ending this mutiny within this one. Though as hinted in the preview the discontent will likely continue.

I thought the civilian vs military conflict played out well for the most part, but I don't fully get the civilians' argument. Ideally the military should be under civilian control, but they're hardly in ideal circumstances and it's not as if the civilians, aside from Eli and Chloe, are unused to being under military command, they were all serving on Icarus for months I believe. I dunno, it just felt like a big jump to go from discontent to all out mutiny so quickly.

I like Chloe's nightmare, the scenes with Chloe and Eli and Chloe and TJ, and the last act had some really nice tension with Brightman (good to see her again!) and TJ removing the tracking device from Rush and the countdown to Destiny jumping. I'm really digging Eli now too, I think he and Greer are probably my favorites on the show so far. And perhaps they've now found a solid role for Chloe, to be the hands of experts who come aboard the ship via the stones. :)

jelgate
April 9th, 2010, 08:43 PM
Jelgate's Two Cents
We all knew this was coming. It was obvious from day 1 when Rush stranded everyone on the Destiny. Its inevitable when to different kind of people are stuck in a common area. Its inevitable that these kind of people will begin to clash and makes changes. And because I read spoilers I knew a huge confrontation but for it to happen like this was something I totally did not expect. Their were quite a few twists and turns that if it was biologically possible my jaw would have touched the floor. But I'm getting ahead of myself. Let’s start where we always do.

What is an interesting I find the episode to start off really boring. The whole dream sequence was so yawn worthy. I know Chloe is having nightmares. It makes logical sense that a person tortured in an alien environment to have nightmares. But do we have to showcase it so much? It was so boring for me. I like good character to explain who this people are but the nightmare sequence in addition to Scott confronting Chloe just bored me like nothing else.

But luckily after the first break (damn you commercials) it got really interesting. The concept of finding and destroying that transmitter had me excited because of my letdown of the first act and while good it brings in the whole motion of events. The cynic in me wonders if that alien device was ever really a tracking device of more of a ploy by Rush to get control. But the more I think about the character its not in Rush's nature. He is a more of a person who would take advantage of such chaos to figure the answer. Although I can't say I am surprised that he was almost willing to let Young and Scott die. Come on we know he would have done it if it wasn't for the intervention of Wray.

I feel quite sorry for TJ in the hydroponics lab. She has always been kind of this neutral voice. While being a soldier TJ has always had a civilian personality. So it was somewhat sad to see her automatically grouped with the military. Speaking of the groupings I find a mutiny of this size a little hard to grasp. Obviously people like Rush and Wray were going to mutiny but one person I did not expect was a person like Park (and another I'll get too later). While a civilian she always seemed fine with the way Young in charge. I just find it hard to swallow that all the civilians were going to be against Young and the military. Granted when you have two different ideologies their will be friction but a high ratio this high of civilian mutinies seems quite improbable to me. Do not get me wrong I loved the shock and unpredictability of some of the mutineers but like many TV shows I have to suspend my disbelief once again.

Speaking of ideologies their is a flaw in Rush's thinking. While it is defiantly true that a civilized society is run by civilian control. Destiny is not a separate country. Its an extension of assets controlled by the US government. Much like the SGC or Atlantis. They had both military and civilians in those bases but were effectively both under control of the US government. I suppose you could argue they were under IOA control but thats not really the point. The point of the matter is that they are both under control of the various nations of Earth like any other base. To that merit it makes more sense that whoever Jack and ultimately the president say is in charge is in charge. Furthermore how did they really expect Earth to react when a mutiny occured on Destiny? I doubt they would have been that sympathic.

But I have seemed to lose my place lets move on too Eli discovering that Chloe was complict of Rush/Wray's mutiny plans. I was shocked beyond belief (and I may have to halt my thunking) that Chloe would side with Rush like that. I thought she was friends with Eli and Scott. It just seems she backstabbed them in this whole ordeal. I think I know why she lost friends on Earth. Her definition of loyalty is very shaky. Furthermore I wonder how Eli and Scott will react in the aftermath of all of this. Scott looked quite angry when he saw that Chloe was in on this mutiny. It will be quite interesting to see the repercussions of this ordeal. I bet Eli isn't too happy either.

I’m so sorry my loyal readers ( all two of you) I forget to mention my thoughts on Young and Greer sneaking over the “line.” Personally I thought it was an ingenious idea to use. It felt really “out of the box” if you know what I mean and was something I wasn’t expecting. I never expected them to use those alien created holes to their advantage. Like I said it was unexpected. It also shows that Eli is a better poker player then I thought. He was very calm in trying to buy a little more time so Young and Greer could get aboard the other side and let the strike force. Also on an inapprioate note I laughed when James(at least I think it was James) hit that civilian with her gun.

Finally we get to the aliens and Rush’s tracking device. Once again I was shocked that Rush had a tracking device implanted next to his heart(Does Rush even have a heart:P). The aliens attacking the Destiny not so much. It was an interesting plot twist that made another showdown between Young and Rush all the more interesting. I give Chloe a little redemption after being mad at her in this one where she allowed the stone switch to get a doctor in and furthermore she seems quite helpful in helping TJ in surgery. And give credit where credit is due. I might have a distaste for Rush but he was right about the aliens attacking by keeping the shields up. Although you have to wonder, how powerful are those shields? Although I am surprised that Young listened to him. A military mindset would be to fire with all of what you got.

I think Wray’s words, “We have to learn to work together” summarizes the whole aftermath of this ordeal. This conflict is far from over as long as the civilian feel oppressed they are going to resist. Rather they are right or not is quite irrelevant as for to be effective everyone on the Destiny has to work together. Which bring my final thought in the form of a rhetorical. What are going to be the repercussions of this thing? This totally changed the makeup of the Destiny and I am curious to see how this changes the crew

Shan Bruce Lee
April 9th, 2010, 08:44 PM
A few things:

1.) The civilians didn't know they'd come under attack when they started the mutiny.
2.) The military personnel would be pretty useless, considering the aliens were blasting at the ship from afar, not sending boarding parties. If it came to fending off invaders, well, the shields would already be down so they could just switch to weapons and blast apart the craft trying to land on them.
3.) ...that's basically it.

Well, Rush did.

Pharaoh Atem
April 9th, 2010, 08:46 PM
Well, Rush did.

he's 1 person the rest where stuck at gun point by greer :D

Shan Bruce Lee
April 9th, 2010, 08:50 PM
he's 1 person the rest where stuck at gun point by greer :D

Or knocked out by Lt. James.

s09119
April 9th, 2010, 08:53 PM
Well, Rush did.

He had no idea when the aliens would come for them.

Pharaoh Atem
April 9th, 2010, 08:54 PM
Or knocked out by Lt. James.

i loved that :D

Shan Bruce Lee
April 9th, 2010, 08:58 PM
He had no idea when the aliens would come for them.

No, but he knew they were coming sometime soon.

mmaadd
April 9th, 2010, 09:05 PM
I think it is time to have someone push Young off the ship. Being flawed is one thing...but this is just too much. One more thing...I thought this show was called STARGATE Universe...where is the stargate? If this continues the show should just be renamed the Young and the Rushless in Space.

Gatebsg
April 9th, 2010, 09:05 PM
2 things
1. Young needs to show ppl that rush tried to frame him for murder.
2. They need to find the solution to the power problem I think it still at 40% right? That way they can run weapons and shields at the same time.

Pharaoh Atem
April 9th, 2010, 09:07 PM
=
2. They need to find the solution to the power problem I think it still at 40% right? That way they can run weapons and shields at the same time.

it's hard to fix it when you only have (i think) two space suits and destiny randomly jumps into FTL.

Replicator Todd
April 9th, 2010, 09:10 PM
2 things
1. Young needs to show ppl that rush tried to frame him for murder.
2. They need to find the solution to the power problem I think it still at 40% right? That way they can run weapons and shields at the same time.

1) That could possibly create another division among the crew or even endanger the crew of the ship if Rush is put into danger.
2) I don't think that is possible as I believe Destiny is on reserve power and no longer has main power.

s09119
April 9th, 2010, 09:11 PM
No, but he knew they were coming sometime soon.

Not necessarily. They could easily just be biding their time. The point is what was he going to do, convince Wray to just put it off forever when they had a perfectly good opportunity?

Commander Zelix
April 9th, 2010, 09:18 PM
2 things
1. Young needs to show ppl that rush tried to frame him for murder.

No doubt. Now there's no point into hiding it.

Very lame for Young to not make any speech while in front of the civilians. He just stood there while people walked by him. It really shows he's not such a good leader. But as bad a leader as he is at least he got no ulterior motive like Rush. He really want what is best for the crew and get back to earth. As viewers, we know he's right about double checking everything Rush is doing. The guy is obsessed with the Destiny and just doesn't want to get back to earth.

Pharaoh Atem
April 9th, 2010, 09:20 PM
2 things
1. Young needs to show ppl that rush tried to frame him for murder.
e.

assuming eli did save the kino footage/

Shan Bruce Lee
April 9th, 2010, 09:23 PM
Not necessarily. They could easily just be biding their time. The point is what was he going to do, convince Wray to just put it off forever when they had a perfectly good opportunity?

I'm not arguing that. I mean part of his plan revolved around getting control of the ship before Young found out about his tracking device and threw him out an airlock, so it actually makes more sense to do it then instead of waiting.

Commander Zelix
April 9th, 2010, 09:32 PM
assuming eli did save the kino footage/
I think he gave a copy to Young if I'm not mistaken.

Pharaoh Atem
April 9th, 2010, 09:33 PM
I think he gave a copy to Young if I'm not mistaken.

yea but i think eli's getting to the point of getting really fed up with being everyone's b- word

the ship who sang
April 9th, 2010, 09:43 PM
Jelgate's Two Cents
But I have seemed to lose my place lets move on too Eli discovering that Chloe was complict of Rush/Wray's mutiny plans. I was shocked beyond belief (and I may have to halt my thunking) that Chloe would side with Rush like that. I thought she was friends with Eli and Scott. It just seems she backstabbed them in this whole ordeal. I think I know why she lost friends on Earth. Her definition of loyalty is very shaky. Furthermore I wonder how Eli and Scott will react in the aftermath of all of this. Scott looked quite angry when he saw that Chloe was in on this mutiny. It will be quite interesting to see the repercussions of this ordeal. I bet Eli isn't too happy either.

thanks for your two cents :)

i think Chloe's character development might have taken a huge turn. she's so upset from finding out the truth of how Col. Young stranded Rush and of how Col. Young fired upon the alien ship while presumably they were both on it. the trauma of being experimented upon and almost being killed by Col. Young must have infuriated her and broken the trust she had in Col. Young. she really couldn't turn to Scott and tell him how upset she was, so it was logical she would turn to Rush in their shared traumatic experience. maybe this new bond with Rush is solidified from neither Scott nor Eli really understanding what Chloe went through (and their unswerving loyalty to Col. Young), causing an alienation between her and her closest friend and lover.

maybe she's just really angry but by the next episode she'll regret her choices and want to restore her relationships with Col. Young, Scott, and Eli.

i sure didn't see this coming. it makes Chloe much more interesting than just the love interest of the two boys. i hope there'll be more interesting twists in store.

MattSilver 3k
April 9th, 2010, 09:51 PM
Episode was great fun. I enjoyed it more than Space, though the character moments were a bit more subtle and lacking this time around. I especially enjoyed this one because it was inevitable, and that Rush used the situation to rid of the alien problem his own way was a pleasant surprise.

- First off, the CGI and music was great as always. While I didn't love the opening music's lyrics during Chloe's dream, the guitar riffs were catchy and mood-appropriate. The CGI shot of the shuttle as the Destiny goes into FTL was fantastic - probably my favourite shot so far.

- Chloe: She had a big role in this one, which I loved. And she didn't do anything to annoy me, either. It was very straightforward for her: She and Rush talk about the aliens, she discovers Rush has the tracking device (And she doesn't. What an awkward scene that would've made if filmed), she agrees to go with his plan, and she's not apologetic. The latter's the important thing - she's standing by her conviction that Young was going to kill her and Rush on the alien ship, and I respect her for that, while I don't exactly agree. Her scenes with Eli, Scott and TJ were very telling: Eli being her best buddy, their argument was great. The look Scott gave her was... ouch - I felt sorry for the guy. The tirade TJ went on solidified her as a military gal, but she was right in noting that they can't take votes everytime a big decision needs to be made.

- The military... Hmm... Young handled this better than I thought he would. I was expecting full-on rage, but now I see that maybe his stranding of Rush changed him too. I think his temper is decreasing now, even when he pointed a gun to Rush's head, I got the feeling he wouldn't have kept it there for long. Meanwhile, it's nice to note TJ as military, and that she surprised people on the board here for being so. It's great that we can have wonky perceptions of these characters still. Meanwhile, Scott was a bit of a "yes" man, but I suppose that's a good thing. Greer was great, and James surprised me. No friends anymore for her, I'm betting.

- The civvies: Eli... man, poor guy. A line about him only being worth a little food and water would've been funny, but I guess this wasn't the situation. He's getting torn which way by all sides, and I'm curious to see how that plays out. Alternatively, it may be that he does what he thinks is best for the ship - something that his superiors Young and Rush should see for themselves and maybe band together about next time around. Wray's writing this week, meanwhile, kinda annoyed me - her cutthroat ways kinda make her come off as the bad guy, when I know deep down that she isn't, thanks to Light and Life. Brody and Volker were nice scheming buddies, but didn't have the hugest role ever (Not that I really expected them too).

- The plot itself: Good. Complex. A plot-plot that wasn't as jarring as Space but didn't lose any plot for character moments like most of the first half. As usual, SGU isn't about the same plot by the end of the episode, that's for sure - we went from alien device tracking to coup to Rush's real intentions to Rush's surgery to the end. Like I said, complex. I'm a little disappointed by the lack of funny moments, but I shouldn't really be, probably. That the aliens motivations are scoped out more, and that we've got a theory as to why Young was jumping bodies last week, was great. This really felt like a Part 2 episode.

All in all, a fine episode. May turn into one of my favourites one day.

The_Asgard_live
April 9th, 2010, 09:55 PM
As much as I liked Space and Time, I felt Divided is the best episode of the series so far. Anyone agree?
Yes...

The good
- Aliens back, okay. Insight into the aliens. yay!
- Stones used in a way that makes sense, finally!
- Drama, used in a way that makes sense and didn't involve boyfriend/girlfriend issues.
- No crying?

The bad
- Military being shown as a-holes again.
- Beginning - too Chloe centric (maybe it was just the background music that annoyed me) Not really digging their music choices. The writers really ruined this character for me, she just has to show up to annoy me now.
- Who didn't know the stones would cut out? They must use AT&T.
- Backstabbing is getting old.

Arative
April 9th, 2010, 09:58 PM
I liked this episode. I thought it was funny that the Chole thought the military people would listen to reason and TJ set her straight. Its exactly how the military would react in that situation.

I also like Rush's and Wray's reaction when Young walked into the room.

Pharaoh Atem
April 9th, 2010, 10:00 PM
I liked this episode. I thought it was funny that the Chole thought the military people would listen to reason and TJ set her straight. Its exactly how the military would react in that situation.

I also like Rush's and Wray's reaction when Young walked into the room.

i loved the holy **** expression on rush's face when young pulled the gun out...... i seriously think rush is scared that col. young is going to kill him.

s09119
April 9th, 2010, 10:00 PM
Yes...

The good
- Aliens back, okay. Insight into the aliens. yay!
- Stones used in a way that makes sense, finally!
- Drama, used in a way that makes sense and didn't involve boyfriend/girlfriend issues.
- No crying?

The bad
- Military being shown as a-holes again.
- Beginning - too Chloe centric (maybe it was just the background music that annoyed me) Not really digging their music choices. The writers really ruined this character for me, she just has to show up to annoy me now.
- Who didn't know the stones would cut out? They must use AT&T.
- Backstabbing is getting old.

It's a refreshing change from "the military is always right and perfect" that we generally saw in the other shows.

mmaadd
April 9th, 2010, 10:04 PM
i loved the holy **** expression on rush's face when young pulled the gun out...... i seriously think rush is scared that col. young is going to kill him.

That's right because Young is off his rocker.

Coronach
April 9th, 2010, 10:10 PM
It's a refreshing change from "the military is always right and perfect" that we generally saw in the other shows.

I agree. Though some of my favorite characters on the show are military, it's really a refreshing (albeit, mildly disturbing) view of them acting in the way they did to the civilians in this particular instance.

s09119
April 9th, 2010, 10:12 PM
I agree. Though some of my favorite characters on the show are military, it's really a refreshing (albeit, mildly disturbing) view of them acting in the way they did to the civilians in this particular instance.

This is far more realistic than the other shows, though. Soldiers don't disobey orders just because they have the moral high ground or something, they do what they're told, just like the soldiers did when it came to taking back the ship. I think it was very effective, though. Even if you agreed with the military, everything they did to respond to the mutiny only legitimized the civilians' actions.

Coronach
April 9th, 2010, 10:18 PM
This is far more realistic than the other shows, though. Soldiers don't disobey orders just because they have the moral high ground or something, they do what they're told, just like the soldiers did when it came to taking back the ship.

Well, it's not always this way even in SGU. Remember Scott refusing Young's order to help him get to the shuttle so he could be the one to sacrifice himself? Technically, he disobeyed an order there. :P

I agree, though, that what the military did is certainly realistic and none of it is all that surprising. As I said though, some of it is mildly disturbing (at least for me) regardless of the realism. And none of that means I didn't like the plot or the episode, as I loved it. :D


I think it was very effective, though. Even if you agreed with the military, everything they did to respond to the mutiny only legitimized the civilians' actions.

Yes, definitely.

The_Asgard_live
April 9th, 2010, 10:21 PM
It's a refreshing change from "the military is always right and perfect" that we generally saw in the other shows.
I obviously don't see it that way.

One commit suicide.
One bashes civilians and threatens to shoot them in the face.
One breaks regs and treats the soldier he did it with like crap.
There is more, but, to top it off, all lead by an attempted murderer.

Refreshing isn't the word I would use. Besides, I always kind of thought that SG1/SGA showing the military some love is the refreshing portrayal. See Avatar for the most recent example of why.

Gollumpus
April 9th, 2010, 10:22 PM
In general I liked this episode. There were several problems brewing and it was only a question of when it was going to blow up. This being said...

What the heck were the civilians hoping to accomplish by taking the ship? They had no realistic objectives which could last longer than the time it took for Young (ie. the military) to squash them. Rush had objectives (1. kill Young, Scott's a bonus; 2. take over control of the ship; 3. have everyone dance around at my command while I use Wray as a buffer between me and the rest of the little people). Wray had an objective (1. I wanna' be Madam President).

The rest of the civilian crew... (an ongoing refrain of "Show me the way to go home.")

There should have been some screen time (over various previous episodes) devoted to the discussions of what Rush/Wray were going to achieve by the take-over. I would have liked to have seen the spin-doctoring by Rush and Wray to bring people on side. All we did see were several scenes of discontented civilians and nothing of organization or hard objectives.

Civilian Objectives:

1.) Disarming the military - Yes, they would disarm the military. And then what? How do they get the weapons back the very first time that the military is needed to defend the ship?

2.) Leadership - Would they really want Rush to decide the big questions for them? He certainly wouldn't want to be bothered with all the little questions. What sort of military experience does he have? The shield decision in this episode was a science question based upon info known only to Rush, it was not a military decision. The military, with or without Young, would not trust Rush and would view any orders he gave with extreme suspicion ("I'm willing to die in the course of my duty, but my duty does not include me doing something risky so Rush can get an answer to a question"). And worse, what sort of interpersonal skills does he have? The only person who likes Rush is..., well I'm not sure even Rush likes Rush. Further, when it became known how he killed Young and Scott (and that is how it would be viewed) all his support would evaporate. There's also a likelihood he would find himself on the pointy end of someone's knife. At best, he could hope to be the guy behind the throne whispering in the ear of the queen.

And speaking of Wray, what authority does she have other than being the leading member of the IOA on the mission (ie. the only member), and not a particularly significant one at that? I do like the character and the actor, and I hope she is around for a long time, however, Wray is not qualified to decide science or military questions, and she certainly would not be viewed as such by the rest of the science types. She wants to be in charge, AND THEN DO WHAT with the power? Is Rush going to be any more malleable because she's calling the shots? Perhaps, until he decided to buck her authority. Would any of the other scientists recognize her authority beyond the first time she "no" to something they wanted? Would the military snap to and salute every time she entered the room? How would she enforce her decisions on them? If Rush or any other scientist decided not to play ball does she go against her "allies" and call in the military? And if the military decided not to obey her orders on some military related issue, then where are they?

Government - there was a call for a civilian government on Destiny with the military being subservient to the will of that civilian government. Question: when did Destiny become a separate political body from any Earth control, and why would anyone think that the military would feel obliged to support such a government? And if they are freeing themselves of military control why stop there? Bonus question - Why not stop listening to the IOA as well?

They were a military expedition on Icarus with Wray as the IOA rep, however she was no Weir or Woolsey with regard to her ability and what kind of power she wielded on that base. How was this "government" going to be formed? Were they going to have elections? Who would oversee these elections? Would Chloe put her Pol-Sci degree to some kind of use? Would the military guys actually be allowed to run candidates or even get a vote? Assuming these questions were answered, what if someone other than Wray or Rush actually won said election? How would that sit with these two power brokers?


How I see this ending up is with Wray becoming a figurehead leader supported by Young, let's call it a shogunate. Young uses Wray to mollify the civilians and deal with the "HR" issues which allows him more time to darn his socks. Rush will be on the outside trying to use Wray (or anyone else) to get what he wants.

Destiny continues.

regards,
G.

Alx
April 9th, 2010, 10:22 PM
Wohoo i liked an ep for once :D im so happy :P

s09119
April 9th, 2010, 10:25 PM
I obviously don't see it that way.

One commit suicide.
One bashes civilians and threatens to shoot them in the face.
One breaks regs and treats the soldier he did it with like crap.
There is more, but, to top it off, all lead by an attempted murderer.

Refreshing isn't the word I would use. Besides, I always kind of thought that SG1/SGA showing the military some love is the refreshing portrayal. See Avatar for the most recent example of why.

I didn't say I think the military should always be portrayed as such or anything. , but all of those things happen in the reality all the time. The military on the other shows never broke this superhuman code of nobility, or if they did, they were just bad people or in league with the mean politicians, so they didn't count.

And Avatar had nothing to do with the military. They were corporate mercenaries, a Blackwater in space.

Commander Zelix
April 9th, 2010, 10:27 PM
Here's my review. I think the episode was mildly entertaining and had a good pace. It didn't bore me like some episode in the first half. It was not better than Air, Time, Space. And it was slightly better than Justice.

Its a bit strange since we're supposed to have been given 11 episodes build up to the civilian/military conflicts. But after viewing the episode I still think the justification for it to be somewhat flimsy and uninteresting. There's no strong moral dilemma or philosophical differences that separates the 2 groups. At least nothing for us viewers to pounder.

I did like how Young took back the ship (except that I don't understand how the shield works, if it does work). Simple but effective. Greer got me chuckling in the hallway scene after he knocked down 2 civilians guards.

Some dialogue were good but not intense as it should be in such situation. It was a pretty low key mutiny episode, imo. Even drama wise.

After such a great episode like Space, this episode got me sitting on the fence again. But at least this time its not because it was too slow or too boring. It had a good pacing. I just wasn't involve intellectually. There was nothing to sink my teeth in. Maybe its because I don't care about who likes who or who hates who among TV characters. At the end I almost felt like nothing really happened.

Entertaining, good pace, fun, average plot. 6.5/10

The_Asgard_live
April 9th, 2010, 10:42 PM
I didn't say I think the military should always be portrayed as such or anything. , but all of those things happen in the reality all the time.

Yep, but, take what is supposed to be an honorable service (its drilled into you) a small non-random sample size, (an elite group of military in an ultra secret stargate program) and you're left with the military on the crew of Destiny? I don't think so.


The military on the other shows never broke this superhuman code of nobility, or if they did, they were just bad people or in league with the mean politicians, so they didn't count.

Yes, it was military friendly.


And Avatar had nothing to do with the military. They were corporate mercenaries, a Blackwater in space.
This I have to call for a 3rd impartial fan of the movie to settle because I am not sure of myself here. I know they wore fatigues, and I believe they had ranks, like colonel? So I can state that to say it had nothing to do with military is incorrect. Whether they were mercs or official military, a bigger fan than I has to weigh in on that. Honestly don't know. But does it matter, they appear to the people watching the movie as military.

Commander Zelix
April 9th, 2010, 10:51 PM
This I have to call for a 3rd impartial fan of the movie to settle because I am not sure of myself here. I know they wore fatigues, and I believe they had ranks, like colonel? So I can state that to say it had nothing to do with military is incorrect. Whether they were mercs or official military, a bigger fan than I has to weigh in on that. Honestly don't know. But does it matter, they appear to the people watching the movie as military.
From what I remember. I thought there were ex-military hired by the corporation to set up a paramilitary groups. A bit like those security agency in Iraq. They keep the same military structure as the official army, are well armed, but are not part of the government army.

Lahela
April 9th, 2010, 11:13 PM
Wow! This is now one of my favourite episodes.

Loved Chloe,
felt both sorry for and angry at Eli and TJ,
hated James and Greer,
was frustrated at Wray's bureaucratic way of running a mutiny,
appreciated seeing Rush's honest fear of Young,
and felt entirely justified in my opinion that Young is not the person to lead.

g.o.d
April 9th, 2010, 11:24 PM
I love this episode, more than Space. I like character driven episodes more than anything. And I'm glad SGU is portraying all the characters as flawed people, no matter if they're military or civilian

Briangate78
April 9th, 2010, 11:25 PM
Well just watched the episode very tired now, it is 2:15am here. It was a very good episode. Will likely make my top 5 for the first season. I am starting to really root for these characters. It seems Rush is developing quite nicely and poor Eli is thrown in the middle of everything. Rush was afraid Young would airlock him because of the tracking device. Instead he got a surgical team together to save his life. These characters still have trust issues, and well from what I heard is happening in the end of the season, they need to act as one and become a happy familt. Too bad they don't have a person like Dr. Weir or Richard Woolsey. At least with Atlantis, you had a civillian in control and then a commander for the military to make those military calls. The military is controlled and takes orders from a civillian government and has checks and balances. I think they need to set up a sorta of Atlantis kinda leadership. Remember Atlantis was cut off from Earth completely. So they had to survive with no communication whatsoever. I can see someone from earth coming in to check up on the Destiny.

Should be interesting how all this happens. I think from now, no one is going to try and hurt or kill anyone. I think events will happen that will put more trust in eachother.

Chloe scored some points for me. Scott just gets more on my nerves everyweek. He just does not think.

Gollumpus
April 9th, 2010, 11:29 PM
and felt entirely justified in my opinion that Young is not the person to lead.

So the obvious question is, if not Young then who? It can't be anyone else in the military unless Young were to chose to step down (which he wouldn't do). Wray has no qualifications to lead a mission of this type. Rush has his own agenda and has shown himself to be untrustworthy several times and quite willing to manipulate people to do things not in their own best interest.

regards,
G.

Col.Foley
April 9th, 2010, 11:32 PM
So the obvious question is, if not Young then who? It can't be anyone else in the military unless Young were to chose to step down (which he wouldn't do). Wray has no qualifications to lead a mission of this type. Rush has his own agenda and has shown himself to be untrustworthy several times and quite willing to manipulate people to do things not in their own best interest.

regards,
G.

:indeed:

Young is the only one to lead given their situation.

Lahela
April 10th, 2010, 12:04 AM
Too bad they don't have a person like Dr. Weir or Richard Woolsey. At least with Atlantis, you had a civillian in control and then a commander for the military to make those military calls. The military is controlled and takes orders from a civillian government and has checks and balances. I think they need to set up a sorta of Atlantis kinda leadership.


So the obvious question is, if not Young then who? It can't be anyone else in the military unless Young were to chose to step down (which he wouldn't do). Wray has no qualifications to lead a mission of this type. Rush has his own agenda and has shown himself to be untrustworthy several times and quite willing to manipulate people to do things not in their own best interest.

regards,
G.

What Brian said. :)

Gollumpus
April 10th, 2010, 12:19 AM
What Brian said. :)

Yeah. What I was wondering was, just who fits that bill from the folks currently on Destiny? Wray doesn't work. Rush is to dangerous and unpopular. No one in the military could do it while Young is around and in command. Who do we have left? Eli or Chloe. Not much there. Either would be seen as too young, or too inexperienced or something...

I'm not looking to start a lengthy debate or anything, it's just that I don't see anyone filling the role. :)

regards,
G.

dacooker
April 10th, 2010, 12:31 AM
best quote from Young "maybe I should just shoot you right now."

Cold Fuzz
April 10th, 2010, 12:34 AM
Well just watched the episode very tired now, it is 2:15am here. It was a very good episode. Will likely make my top 5 for the first season. I am starting to really root for these characters. It seems Rush is developing quite nicely and poor Eli is thrown in the middle of everything. Rush was afraid Young would airlock him because of the tracking device. Instead he got a surgical team together to save his life. These characters still have trust issues, and well from what I heard is happening in the end of the season, they need to act as one and become a happy familt. Too bad they don't have a person like Dr. Weir or Richard Woolsey. At least with Atlantis, you had a civillian in control and then a commander for the military to make those military calls. The military is controlled and takes orders from a civillian government and has checks and balances. I think they need to set up a sorta of Atlantis kinda leadership. Remember Atlantis was cut off from Earth completely. So they had to survive with no communication whatsoever. I can see someone from earth coming in to check up on the Destiny.

Should be interesting how all this happens. I think from now, no one is going to try and hurt or kill anyone. I think events will happen that will put more trust in eachother.

Chloe scored some points for me. Scott just gets more on my nerves everyweek. He just does not think.

It would be ideal if they had a Richard Woolsey or Elizabeth Weir in their midst--someone who understood the military mindset and procedure but answered to the IOA. Unfortunately, nobody onboard fits that bill. Wray just doesn't cut it in my opinion as she's a resource specialist and her siding with Rush I think was a big mistake on her part. Her idea of instigating a mutiny...well there's going to be consequences down the road for her on that.

Now her trying to form a third faction that presented an ideological midpoint between the scientists and the military would have been good but that's not at all what happened. Mutineers in desperate situations can often get shot. She and Rush are damned lucky that Young isn't so harsh that he would put them under house arrest in their quarters.


:indeed:

Young is the only one to lead given their situation.

Absolutely correct. With Wray just not cut out to lead and Rush having been repeatedly manipulative and having his own hidden agenda, Young is the logical choice. Though the issue of the crew's disunity has been brought to the surface, it's anything but resolved. I'm sure there's going to be fallout from this down the line with the crew mistrusting each other.

Lahela
April 10th, 2010, 12:36 AM
Yeah. What I was wondering was, just who fits that bill from the folks currently on Destiny? Wray doesn't work. Rush is to dangerous and unpopular. No one in the military could do it while Young is around and in command. Who do we have left? Eli or Chloe. Not much there. Either would be seen as too young, or too inexperienced or something...

I'm not looking to start a lengthy debate or anything, it's just that I don't see anyone filling the role. :)

regards,
G.

I don't think that there is any one person who is suitable, which is why I think a cooperative arrangement needs to be made. Young, Wray and Rush all have vital contributions to be made, so my ideal (if highly improbable) scenario would be to have them work together. A bit like Weir/Sheppard/McKay managed most of the time. :)

Gollumpus
April 10th, 2010, 12:48 AM
I suspect what we will see is a "shogunate" structure. Likely, Wray will be the nominal leader and she will bring most (all?) of the civilian pop with her. Young will support her leadership while it pleases him to do so. There will be periods where he will choose not to support her decisions but most often he will. I still don't see what makes her good leadership material. I'd like to see someone else (eg. Chloe? /shudder) come forward as the civilian leader leaving Wray to manipulate behind the scenes.

Rush will be Rush. :P

regards,
G.

Tuvok
April 10th, 2010, 01:22 AM
I suspect what we will see is a "shogunate" structure. Likely, Wray will be the nominal leader and she will bring most (all?) of the civilian pop with her. Young will support her leadership while it pleases him to do so. There will be periods where he will choose not to support her decisions but most often he will. I still don't see what makes her good leadership material. I'd like to see someone else (eg. Chloe? /shudder) come forward as the civilian leader leaving Wray to manipulate behind the scenes.

Rush will be Rush. :P

regards,
G.

Good plan, except Wray is not much of a manipulator. She tends to whine, and insinuate and lets be honest she is a real good instigator . But she is no manipulator. That magnificent ******* Rush on the other hand ...

Khentkawes
April 10th, 2010, 01:38 AM
Loved this episode. Loved the development for Chloe, the ethical issues, the freaky aliens still chasing them, and was completed shocked by Rush's revelation that he had a transmitter implanted in his chest. I actually found a lot of things very disturbing, but in a thought-provoking way. Although, I think I was most concerned by the return to the status quo at the end. The military is back in charge, the tensions are even higher than before, and the whole mutiny changed nothing. Except of course that it revealed a lot about how people are thinking based on what side they choose and how they reacted, so I'm sure we'll see more of the fall-out from this in the episodes to come.


i loved the holy **** expression on rush's face when young pulled the gun out...... i seriously think rush is scared that col. young is going to kill him.

Rush isn't scared... he's terrified! He never really trusted Young, and after what happened in Justice the colonel proved that Rush was completely right to distrust him. I re-watched Space tonight and noticed Rush's body language in that scene with him and Young (the "for the sake of the crew" scene). Carlyle does an amazing job of subtly showing how scared Rush is. He tenses when Young moves closer to him and it looks like he's trying very hard not to flinch or step away. And now that we know Rush was implanted with a transmitter, he knows Young will see him as a liability and get rid of him. So yes, Rush is terrified. And with good reason I think.


Even if you agreed with the military, everything they did to respond to the mutiny only legitimized the civilians' actions.

Exactly. I don't think the civilians went about things the right way, but I do understand their point and their motivations. I can also sort of understand the military's perspective. But (and it's a huge "but") by using force and waving guns in people's faces, the military just proved that the civilians were right and that they can't trust their military "colleagues." The problem is basically that the civilians feared they weren't physically safe on board the Destiny. They were afraid, especially after Rush's return, that the instant they stepped out of line or irritated the military in any way, they would be staring down the barrel of a gun. Or stranded on a lifeless planet somewhere. They had doubts, and now the military's actions have just shown that their worst fears were all too accurate.



Loved Chloe,
felt both sorry for and angry at Eli and TJ,
hated James and Greer,
was frustrated at Wray's bureaucratic way of running a mutiny,
appreciated seeing Rush's honest fear of Young,
and felt entirely justified in my opinion that Young is not the person to lead.

Agree with all except the thing about James. I am angry at her, but I still feel bad for her. I like her, and I will need to see more of her character before I decide how I feel about her actions in this episode. Right now I think she made poor decisions, but she's certainly not alone in that. And as for the last point: completely agree that Young should not be the leader. He still scares me and I think he needs to be removed from command. Preferably by Scott, TJ, and James.


So the obvious question is, if not Young then who?

I honestly think that Wray was on to something with the idea of civilian leadership, but even more importantly, I don't think that one single person should be leader of the Destiny. There isn't a single person on board who is qualified or trustworthy enough. I agree that Rush's motivations are suspect, as is Wray's judgment. And Young just plain doesn't know how to keep his temper in check or how to listen to anyone.

At this point, the only option I see is cooperation, and I think that would require two (possibly three) individuals to assume positions as "co-leaders." I know people are going to say that there's no such thing as "co-command" in the military. But let's face it... military leadership on the Destiny is already a failed experiment. There needs to be some sort of joint leadership that allows for both a military and civilian (or scientist) point-of-view and some amount of discussion before decisions are made. The military argument is that there isn't always time for discussion. Fine. Fair enough. But aside from alien attacks, in most situations there will be two minutes for a few people to confer and discuss what the best option would be. So elect three people who will govern by consensus in the majority of situations (they could have one of those leaders represent the military, one represent the scientists, and maybe one to represent a moderate point of view?). On the rare occasions when there is absolutely no time to discuss an issue, then defer to whoever is most qualified to make that decision. Yes, it would be complicated, and I admit it's a terribly idealistic plan. But at this point, I think it's probably the only way to foster any type of cooperation. As long as one person is in charge, it will run the risk of becoming a dictatorship with no source of accountability. And I think we've already established that there are no qualified, intelligent, and benevolent dictators on board to fill the position. ;) The military and civilian groups will both need to compromise, otherwise they are just going to remain in this stand-off indefinitely.

Gollumpus
April 10th, 2010, 01:38 AM
Good plan, except Wray is not much of a manipulator. She tends to whine, and insinuate and lets be honest she is a real good instigator . But she is no manipulator. That magnificent ******* Rush on the other hand ...

Yeah, but she's learning at the feet of a master... ;)

regards,
G.

Vapor
April 10th, 2010, 01:39 AM
EXCELLENT episode.

It's a small detail, but I love the fact that Chloe's mother shows up in her dream sequence. She doesn't have any lines, she doesn't play a part in the story at all- she's just there for a few seconds, and she's gone, and no one brings her up again. It feels like a true artistic choice, rather what we often get, which is the inclusion of a character based purely on the fact that the actor is in town, or they're free to film something. Chloe's feeling uneasy about her experience aboard the alien ship and a stray thought of her mother pops into her head, and THAT'S IT. It's just not the type of thing SG normally would seem to do, and I loved it for that.

What I enjoyed about the civilian/military conflict is that I don't think either side is entirely right or wrong. People on both sides have a good point, and as we've seen in this very thread, there are many people who could easily find themselves agreeing more with one or the other.

Myself, I tend to side more with the civilians, just because Rush is crazy, and even if he's useful, he's still the most self-interested person onboard with the capability to cause trouble. There's also the fact that every single military person is not their enemy, and choosing to withold food and water isn't going to make the military guys more inclined to love them. I assume the truth about Rush framing Young for murder will come out soon. And if it doesn't, then why the hell not? Seriously, it needs to happen.

Yay, Chloe! This is definitely one of her best episodes. I was hoping she would be forced into a new mindset after her abduction, but I wasn't prepared for just how far they were going to take it. I find myself loving that she went to these lengths to make her point, and that it was a difficult decision for her, which ultimately might have burned some bridges with Scott and Eli. Of all the ways to complicate their little triangle, this was not one that I expected. But it's great nonetheless.

Young just waltzing into the room when Rush and Wray thought they were in control was priceless. Say what you want about Young's conduct as leader, it's moments like this that make me love him. And in this scenario, he was entirely justified in taking back the ship and holding the instigator of the entire conflict at gunpoint. Lucky for Rush, Young didn't do what Rush might have feared and throw him out an airlock- instead he had the tracking device surgically removed.

I will say that I was very happy with Young admitting the mistake he made by leaving Rush on the planet. As much as I like Young as a character, that was a terrible decision made more out of a split-second flash of emotion than it was for anything else (even if Rush was clearly a danger to him and the others), so it was nice to see him fess up to it. He admits he was wrong and has to work it out as he goes along, because there's no one else to relieve him. At least no one that wouldn't implode after the first few hours. >_>

TJ vs. Chloe- Awesome.
Eli vs. Rush vs. Young - Awesome.
Scott vs. His Original Hairstyle - Awesome.
This episode in general- Awesome.

harakiri
April 10th, 2010, 01:47 AM
Wow! This is now one of my favourite episodes.
Loved Chloe,
felt both sorry for and angry at Eli and TJ,
hated James and Greer,
was frustrated at Wray's bureaucratic way of running a mutiny,
appreciated seeing Rush's honest fear of Young,
and felt entirely justified in my opinion that Young is not the person to lead.

Then who should lead?
I have tried this question here so many times without getting a decent answer.


Lets sum it up a bit:
Rush stranded those people there.
Young wanted to dial earth from Icarus.
Rush framed Young for an murder,and wanted a leader to make the "life and death
decision" ,and then Young did. It was a wrong choice,but Young did however save Rush the next time. And while Rush have spread his story about being left to die on the planet,Young has so far not said anything about being framed by Rush.
When Young learned that Rush had a tracking device operated inside him he came up with the idea to get someone from earth to help them take it out. No air-lock!!

I see here that people want a government-kinda thing on the Destiny. Yes its correct that we have elected people in countries ruling the military,but this is not a country. Was not the Icarus-base an military base? The word "base" in its own sounds military.
When we look at the situation from the start a bit: The closes thing to a government-person that has been on the ship was Chloe`s dad,and if I am not mistaken he did not seem to approve Rush`s choice to dial the 9`th chevron. (I might be wrong). To speculate a bit: If Mr. Armstrong still have been there,he might have been a leader for both the civilians and the military,but he would anyway most likely take the military advises long before Rush`s advises.

This episode just made it even more clearly that the right leader is Young. Wray should be imprisoned for conspiring against the very same military that could and would save her life if she ever would need it. Rush also deserves to be locked up,but they could need him. What both the civilians and the military don`t need is another incident like this. So if either Rush,Wray or the others try to take over the ship again I feel it is time to put a stop to it.

This episode almost had everything. After watching it twice tonight is it only one thing I want;peace! I want the enemies outside Destiny,not on board. I sure hope the writers not plan to have more personal drama than sci-fi. We`re out in space for crying out loud. I would think it would be more likely to stick together in that kinda situation,but hey,I have`nt tried.

What rules does the military have for a mutiny made by civilians I don`t know. I guess there cant be any court-martial towards civilians,but this is a very special situation so who knows what can be done.

Another thing: Is it only me or is those alien ships a little "boring" ?
Should not Destiny soon hit for a sun?
If this series should last for more than another season they`d need a "new Destiny" at some point if this keeps up. I sure hope they find a way to fix the ship so it can have a chance fighting when they have to. At this time I am very disappointed with the shield and weapons Destiny have. I still have my hopes left.

Lahela
April 10th, 2010, 02:00 AM
Then who should lead?
I have tried this question here so many times without getting a decent answer.


Because some people's answers differ from your own point of view? Then I suppose you'll never get a "decent" answer. :)

harakiri
April 10th, 2010, 02:15 AM
Lahela :
No its not that I don`t know people have different opinions here,and I love that,but I just wanted a name for a person that could be a good or better leader. Not asking to be rude or anything,I just cant see anybody want Wray or Rush as a leader.
But I would love a third choice.. thats what am looking for. The reason is easy,I want to know if there is something I missing,someone that I have`nt thought about.

Sorry if you think I did not respect your opinion,that was not my intention at all.

Gollumpus
April 10th, 2010, 02:16 AM
What rules does the military have for a mutiny made by civilians I don`t know. I guess there cant be any court-martial towards civilians,but this is a very special situation so who knows what can be done.

Maybe the word we could all be using in place of mutiny is "insurrection". Both deal with rebellion against an established authority, however, while mutiny is fairly specific in dealing with the revolt of a crew against their captain, insurrection deals with a general population rising against the authority which it is under. A gentle difference, but one which would permit Young (should he so chose) to deal very harshly with the civilians on board.

regards,
G.

Lahela
April 10th, 2010, 02:26 AM
Lahela :
No its not that I don`t know people have different opinions here,and I love that,but I just wanted a name for a person that could be a good or better leader. Not asking to be rude or anything,I just cant see anybody want Wray or Rush as a leader.
But I would love a third choice.. thats what am looking for. The reason is easy,I want to know if there is something I missing,someone that I have`nt thought about.

Sorry if you think I did not respect your opinion,that was not my intention at all.

I totally agree that none of them would be ideal on their own - I wouldn't trust any of them with my life. That's partly why I think a cooperative arrangement would be best - they would each keep the others in check. Of course, that would require some serious compromising on all of their parts, hence my doubt that it'll ever actually happen.

I like that the conflict of leadership isn't easily solvable, no hero to swoop in and save them all from themselves.

harakiri
April 10th, 2010, 02:44 AM
Maybe the word we could all be using in place of mutiny is "insurrection". Both deal with rebellion against an established authority, however, while mutiny is fairly specific in dealing with the revolt of a crew against their captain, insurrection deals with a general population rising against the authority which it is under. A gentle difference, but one which would permit Young (should he so chose) to deal very harshly with the civilians on board.

regards,
G.


I agree with you, "insurrection" is a better word actually.
Doubtful that Young would do anything big out of all this,but who knows. Something needs to be done at some point if things ain`t changing soon.

TENTHIUS
April 10th, 2010, 02:53 AM
Cool episode!
It was far better than Space. One of the best episodes of SGU to date. That special atmosphere from the first half is back. All of that - music, actors, drama, all of that was awesome.

reddevil18
April 10th, 2010, 03:08 AM
Loved it! I much preferred it to Space. As I said in that episode's thread, Space felt rushed and choppy. This...this flowed much better. And there was a lot of tension. Not quite Blood On The Scales level, but it was good. And some pretty damn cool moments along the way. The walk on the hull...that was awesome.

Loved Greer's "They're okay. I went easy on 'em". It's hard to get my thoughts in order, but it was a really strong episode. It might just be my favorite.

harakiri
April 10th, 2010, 03:19 AM
I totally agree that none of them would be ideal on their own - I wouldn't trust any of them with my life. That's partly why I think a cooperative arrangement would be best - they would each keep the others in check. Of course, that would require some serious compromising on all of their parts, hence my doubt that it'll ever actually happen.

I like that the conflict of leadership isn't easily solvable, no hero to swoop in and save them all from themselves.

Nice point.
I am however of the opinion that the military has done well so far. Taking in consideration the situation they have gotten into.
BTW. Do we have any idea of how many days they have been on the ship so far? With Air (1/2/3),Darkness,Light and water it felt like just days between them,but I don`t have that feeling now. This could be important for how long time Destiny have been under military command. I mainly feel Young as a leader for the military anyway,and he has so far mostly taken military decisions like who goes through the Stargate,what to do when they met these enemies and so on. The decisions around "war"-things would normally be handed over to the people that are used to give orders of what to do when encounter problems. When it comes to the civilians,well,maybe they should have an own leader for them. Military personal would anyway take orders from their officer,which I guess they should do,almost no matter what.

For me the thing they should have had is a kind of "spokesman" for the civilians. But this would no matter what be a big problem. What do everyone there really want to decide? IMHO. Its not much anyone can do. When all that is said,they need to do something for the sake of everyone,and that as soon as possible. I would sure not like to be in charge of making any big decision for that many people. But an interesting thought is what Wray and Rush planed to do if they had got all the weapons and kept the soldiers locked up and they got boarded by a lot of "bad guys" (in lack of a better word) ..

DOIKECARTER
April 10th, 2010, 03:25 AM
much better then the bsg mutiny IMO. for one reason it's not over. :D this crew will never get along. and yet hopefully learned that they are stronger together.

cause if their don't destroy themselves the smurfs will keep trying and trying to get access to destiny

I think the context of BSG was really different. BSG mutiny developed years after the attack of the Colonies, out of desperation. Earth gone, hope gone....and Adama was treating with cylons!

The episode was good enough for me....but I really despaired in BSG. It was more emotional, it felt more like a betrayal. When I recall the miniseries and how Gaeta and other officers talked to Adama, and how Adama was received in CIC in 2.05 and watched the mutiny.....that´s emotion. SGU people are still strangers (although they were supposed to have known each other before in Icarus Base for a while), so it was fun, action was good, I´ll always love Joel´s music, watching "Alisen Down-Barolay" as a surgeon was a bonus.....but I didn´t feel the same I felt in BSG. But I think the show is improving every episode, and that´s good enough

Inquisitor
April 10th, 2010, 03:27 AM
One would think.. they would have realised there was a hole and it was possible to enter their side of the ship through it.
It was well thought out until that point.

Also, they've already shown stopping the Destiny stargate from shutting down prevents the Destiny going into FTL, if they need more time, why don't they dial the gate and shove something halfway in it? They've already done it before!

Phenomenological
April 10th, 2010, 03:45 AM
1. Rush would have thought of the holes in the hull. And if he didn't, one of the others would have. There's no way they would all miss something so glaringly obvious.

2. Those doors between the two areas were locked down. It doesn't make sense they can be opened easily from one side, as displayed when Greer opened one. They'd be locked out from both sides and need to be opened from a control room, surely?

3. Very convenient that the control transfer shut down the shuttle docking clamps and nothing else, no? In fact I'd imagine the shuttle clamps would be a separate system to prevent any problems with the ship leading to the destruction of the shuttle.

Just random gripes for people to disagree with. :)

escyos
April 10th, 2010, 03:53 AM
1. Rush would have thought of the holes in the hull. And if he didn't, one of the others would have. There's no way they would all miss something so glaringly obvious.

perhaps they thought that the military wouldnt think of that or even try that considering the fact that they had all the supplies...and young appeared to be co-operating


2. Those doors between the two areas were locked down. It doesn't make sense they can be opened easily from one side, as displayed when Greer opened one. They'd be locked out from both sides and need to be opened from a control room, surely?

rush would have unlocked them from one side to allow them to let Eli in.


3. Very convenient that the control transfer shut down the shuttle docking clamps and nothing else, no? In fact I'd imagine the shuttle clamps would be a separate system to prevent any problems with the ship leading to the destruction of the shuttle.

we never saw anything else so who said it didnt, rush was transfering the controls to the lab, it might have tied up the system so that they shuttle couldnbt communicate with the clamps and activate them.


Just random gripes for people to disagree with. :)

I did.....

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 03:58 AM
Wow that was an excellent episode, better I think than Space. SGU is on a role, two cracking eps in a row and what looks like a good 3rd shaping up for next week in Faith.

Where to begin, loved the dream sequence, loved the sudden return of the aliens, good to see them sticking around. I was perhaps a little disappointed that there were no casualties, but the end of the ep left in no doubt that the conflict amongst the crew was not over. Being military it's rather obvious who I supported. :D Didn't like Wray's actions though I still have a liking for Rush, why? Well everyone thinks he doing one thing, siding with whoever, and Rush is in fact two steps ahead planning for some other situation with his own agenda. Really like that we saw Dr Brightman again from Lockdown, nice call-back. Also I thought that the surgery sequence shows exactly what's wrong with stone usage, it's not as simple as dialling an expert up, they arrive on the Destiny confused as hell, and everything has to be explained, and the stones aren't reliable.

On another note...

, something even Young accepts. He told the Pentagon that he may blatantly ignore orders from Earth as of "Earth,"
That's just the same as any other military commander on the ground. Young is the commander on the ground as it were, and like any other commander on the ground he has the most information about the situation, he therefore may have to ignore or alter orders from higher up that are not made with all the information. The more isolated a military unit is the more leeway their commander gets in making his decisions separate from command.

MechaThor
April 10th, 2010, 04:10 AM
This was an excellent episode perfectly mixing the drama (civilian vs. Military), character development and action (classic Sci-fi Alien battle). delivering a perfect mix with the aliens arrival a complete surprise, and since this episode did not contain the shot of them walking through the Stargate I am happy that they will appear yet again in the future! Although a name for them would be recommended please.

The only fault I have is the fact they they still have not exsplained why the ship in "Space" was able to board the Destiny? Considering that in this weeks episode Rush said that they had been trying for years without success.

It could be explained by Chloe's dream where we see her being "beamed up" through the hole, however that would mean that they can "beam" people out but not in, so why? Dose the shield only let them beam out, because Young and Greer went through it? Dose the technology only work one way? Its a mystery.

Back to the positive, and there was many in this weeks episode, including the use of the stones, and even better the lack of there use at the end. Having the doctor get cut off was great as it not only let TJ shine, but also gave them another issue with future stone use, meaning their reliance and use will hopefully start to fall. Then we also found out that the Aliens have Rush's stone adding to even more future stories.

reddevil18
April 10th, 2010, 04:16 AM
The only fault I have is the fact they they still have not exsplained why the ship in "Space" was able to board the Destiny? Considering that in this weeks episode Rush said that they had been trying for years without success.
According to Mallozzi, who apparently didn't know the right answer until Cooper told him, despite the fact that he wrote the episode(yeah...), it was because that section of the ship was without power, as James shut it off to save those people. And maybe the guns draining power had a hand in it. Meh...suspend your disbelief, I guess.

MechaThor
April 10th, 2010, 04:23 AM
According to Mallozzi, who apparently didn't know the right answer until Cooper told him, despite the fact that he wrote the episode(yeah...), it was because that section of the ship was without power, as James shut it off to save those people. And maybe the guns draining power had a hand in it. Meh...suspend your disbelief, I guess.

Ok that sounds good, wish they had siad that however.

Meh... I am just going to go with "human error".

Can't wait till we see the aliens again, maybe next time they can try and negotiate again?

Arica15
April 10th, 2010, 04:28 AM
Hmm, I think there's a bit of a false premise going on.

This isn't a mission, it's chaos, these people are stranded, technically can you even say that they are military or civilian anymore? They may be trying to cling to the old structures but practically do they still exist, aren't they now just different factions in almost a new society? And if that's true, why does one group have the moral authority over the other? I mean yes they have all been stranded which is unfortunate but why does that make it automatically right for civilians to take control? - I'm not saying that I think the military should have automatic control either the same questions works both ways, I personally think that the whole point of this might just be that the previous definitions of power and control don't apply here, other than expertise in difficult situations what exactly can the IOA, or authorities on earth (Civilian and military) actually do for these people; moral support? The people on Destiny will have to figure it out in a new way, with structures that work for them, with the people and equipment they have, not with what they would like to have.

An interesting road.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 04:38 AM
Just wanted to add a couple more things I forgot to add in my fist post. The directing was pretty good, the new director Félix Enríquez Alcalá had a couple of standout moments, the opening dream sequence and the beautiful shot of Greer and Young silhouetted spring to mind.

I also really liked TJ's little speech to Chloe, apart from being a standout moment for TJ I thought it was a good reply to Wray's earlier speech in which Wray said that Young, being a Colonel was used to getting what he wants. TJ's speech highlighted the fact that Young might get what he want, but not because it's handed on a platter but because he's prepared to fight for it and ousting him will be no pushover.

Demoniser
April 10th, 2010, 04:38 AM
I thought this was a really enjoyable episode.
Points of note.

- the whole lockdown situation it had a very familiar sg1/sga feel to it (Quarantine, Lockdown, Hot Zone etc).

- The use of the stones when appropriate. Makeshift cameras, constant threat of impending doom...welcome to Destiny :D

- The civilians standing up to the military.

- Some great dialogue between characters

- I feel sorry for Eli, i get the feeling that sometime soon he's going to cotton on to how valuable he is as a 'resource on the destiny which gives leverage for him.

- Nice to see some continuity with the aliens.

Tbh this episode really has cemented for me how naive Young really is when it comes to the ship, If he doesn't start trusting the scientists and is left in charge he's going to get them killed. Simple fact is, when it comes to the ship Rush has been right far more times. Im drawing Parallels to SGA and the Siege Part 2 with Everett walking in the base, ignoring the scientists and thinking he can get waht he wants at the snap of a finger. When something goes wrong, he's to proud to admit failure.

It'll be a long time before Young reaches the level of leadership that O'Neill and Hammond had.

Bad Points? I skipped through the entire first part with the god awful music and Scott and Chloe in bed...not interested.

I found it to be thoroughlly enjoyable overall :)

MattSilver 3k
April 10th, 2010, 05:24 AM
Rewatched it a second time, have a huge chunk of notes:

- I noticed in the Chloe dream that the song lyrics mentioned the word "mother". And guess who shows up next? Haha, I think that was an odd yet cool moment. Attention to detail or huge coincidence, but whatever.

- Kino shot going up through the hole was *****in'.

- I wonder if Rush not leaving while Eli checks over the Destiny via Kino is some kind of callback to Light - Rush wants to know what his baby Destiny looks like, eh?

- Like the research lab. Nice overhead shots. The whole episode was well directed.

- Bridge Club! What an effective lie, Brody!

- Before Space and Divided, for some reason, I thought the shuttle wouldn't have weapons. Odd.

- Eli's eye roll when Rush says, "I was hoping he didn't notice that." :lol:

- When Rush was increasing the shield strength, Young was going into the hole. At first I thought the shield would become too strong and Young would get stuck. But alas...

- Interesting concept that the only reason the aliens would breach Destiny in the future is because of human error. Way to go team!

- Extraordinary CGI and music. The really thumpity thump music during the surgery scene was great. Coupled with the CGI - there was this great callback to Air Part 1 when I noticed the glass dome with the hole in it - the little shield blocking it.

- I'm thinking, if Young's theory about Rush having a stone taken by the aliens is true, that the aliens jammed the communication stone signal during the surgery. An interesting idea if correct.

- And finally, I wonder: The little ship we saw on the hull here in Divided, was that the same one in Air 3 that jetted off the top of the ship? Did it move to avoid detection? Or... was it a second pod that went to report to the aliens about the intrusion, and the pod on the hull here was left behind. OOORRR, was that pod from Air 3 the only one, and a second pod attached itself last week in Space? Decisions...

All in all, a great episode the second time around too. Probably up there with Time and Darkness as a favourite.

derrickh
April 10th, 2010, 05:38 AM
This episode just underlined the fact that the most self centered, self serving, opportunistic person on the ship is Chloe. As a character, she's easily the most unlikable person on the show.

Her main (only?) reason for joining a mutiny against the military was because Young wasnt going to save her. She repeatedly whined about how he was going to leave her behind during the alien battle. Because in her mind, the thought of saving a hundred people instead of her is unthinkable. How dare anyone put the lives of others above hers. Especially when she contributes so much. Well, so far her main contributions have been sex and tight shirts but that has to rank higher than the guys growing food.

Just like when her dad died, its only a matter of time before she uses her 'trauma' of being abducted to gain pity and get excuses from doing any real work. Nevermind that the only reason she was taken was because during a battle she thought it would be a good idea to stand under a freshly cut hole in the ship and stare up. No doubt she figured it was a spotlight built just for her.

Unlike Wray, who is just stupid, and Rush who is narcisisstic to the point of mental illness, Chloe's only reason for starting a mutiny that put the lives of everyone at risk was because her feelings were hurt.

The leaders of the mutiny, Wray, Rush, and Chloe should all be jailed for the remainder of the series.
D

Tuvok
April 10th, 2010, 05:40 AM
Yeah, but she's learning at the feet of a master... ;)

regards,
G.

I deny your logic, I deny it !

Lo , even if Wray takes some pointers from the Master Rush she will never measure to his magnificence. Never I say! :mckay:

Lahela
April 10th, 2010, 06:12 AM
This was an excellent episode perfectly mixing the drama (civilian vs. Military), character development and action (classic Sci-fi Alien battle). delivering a perfect mix with the aliens arrival a complete surprise, and since this episode did not contain the shot of them walking through the Stargate I am happy that they will appear yet again in the future! Although a name for them would be recommended please.


Could you please edit your post to include the spoiler tags as illustrated above? We're not supposed to reveal spoilers for upcoming episodes, and not everyone watches the trailers. Cheers.

senilegreen
April 10th, 2010, 06:15 AM
Agree that the Chloe character is very self centered, but in some ways she is one of the more believable characters in the story. By that I mean she is acting closer to what her character's age would imply. This is where I get frustrated with the story-line and some of the characters - they are not acting like people with the age and experience they supposedly would have.

senilegreen
April 10th, 2010, 06:28 AM
Even the SGC ultimately had civilians calling the shots.

The gang on Destiny still do have civilians technically over them. Young reports to O'Neill who reports to the President.

However, what is also true, and which the stories so far have not embraced or explored well, is that Destiny is on a one-way journey and these people are not going home. This has been left unresolved for too long. If they want a civilian government on the ship then they will have to form one, which does not mean mutiny!

Enough time has elapsed in the SGA story-line where they really ought to have worked this out farther by now. I think the story is dragging a bit here, and there should have been more conflict over this already. Throwing in a few unmitigatedly despondent individuals (e.g., suicides) might be reasonable also, as well as other types of fights than just the Rush/Young battle for the alpha male.

While I enjoyed this episode, in some ways SGA still is struggling with having all the characters acting like high-schoolers. That fits the young Chloe character, and the psychopathically narcissistic Rush character, but seems wrong for so many of the other characters.

erotavlas
April 10th, 2010, 06:46 AM
1. Rush would have thought of the holes in the hull. And if he didn't, one of the others would have. There's no way they would all miss something so glaringly obvious.

2. Those doors between the two areas were locked down. It doesn't make sense they can be opened easily from one side, as displayed when Greer opened one. They'd be locked out from both sides and need to be opened from a control room, surely?


I agree, the military did regain control a little bit too easily.

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 06:54 AM
I agree, the military did regain control a little bit too easily.

Yeah 'cause they're not... ya know... trained for that kind of thing... :P

Phenomenological
April 10th, 2010, 07:20 AM
Actually, I don't think that donning spacesuits and walking over the hull of a ship to climb in through a hole in the hull to prevent a civilian takeover is in basic training, even for SGC personnel. ;)

Jper
April 10th, 2010, 07:24 AM
1. Rush would have thought of the holes in the hull. And if he didn't, one of the others would have. There's no way they would all miss something so glaringly obvious.

I don't know. Would would have thought that Young would think "out-of-the-box" like this. Also, it was a pretty dangerous move. If Eli hadn't stopped Rush a the right moment. Greer and Young would have been stuck. I don't find this so unbelievable. The civilians were rather unprepared and unorganized imho, and this fits in nicely there. It just showed their weakness and the military's strength, which is why I think working together is the best solution.



2. Those doors between the two areas were locked down. It doesn't make sense they can be opened easily from one side, as displayed when Greer opened one. They'd be locked out from both sides and need to be opened from a control room, surely?

Why doesn't it make sense? It's not because you say it is so that the lockout would lock-out both door controls that it is indeed so. If Rush could program it like this, and if the technology allows it, I see nothing standing in the way. I've always found it quite stupid and unbelievable the other way around. Surely which such advance technology one should be able to do this. I strongly disagree with the fact that they should be locked out from both sides and that they should only be opened from the control room.




3. Very convenient that the control transfer shut down the shuttle docking clamps and nothing else, no? In fact I'd imagine the shuttle clamps would be a separate system to prevent any problems with the ship leading to the destruction of the shuttle.[/quote$

Yes, I agree with you here. :) Of course, TPTB needed this a story element, and it's not like it's impossible. However I don't think it would have to be a separate system. Could be a safety function to prevent anyone from entering while controls are transferred around on the ship or something. Or maybe Rush just made a mistake with the programming.

[quote]
Just random gripes for people to disagree with. :)

Gripes are fine, but I think you need to be more rational about things. :)

Lord Hurin
April 10th, 2010, 07:25 AM
Actually, I don't think that donning spacesuits and walking over the hull of a ship to climb in through a hole in the hull to prevent a civilian takeover is in basic training, even for SGC personnel. ;)

Maybe not, but thinking on your feet, working with what you have and considering all options certainly are.

Plus, I mistakenly thought that erotavlas was referring to the retaking itself as well as the plan to do so. My bad on that.

Cleave
April 10th, 2010, 07:32 AM
I like many are getting tired of these episodes being about the smaller interactions being used as full blown reasons for an entire episode. I've taken a few 3-4 as being needed with setting up such a series but this is getting tedious now. 'Space' shifted the focus more to what this whole universe is about 'Scifi', I dont want it to revert to these personal interactions hogging each episode again. Its killing the series and the rating are proof of it.

I'm trying to be fair to the series but its no SG1 or SGA and doesnt have the ability to be BSG (No where near enough grit)

Anyway I'm giving it to the end of the season to improve, cause at this time its in the dump bin for me.
Its a real shame since I have loved the SG universe for a long time now.

:mckay:

Laxian of Earth
April 10th, 2010, 07:49 AM
I find it hard to believe that Young looked up to Jack O'Neill. If they ever make it home I want Young discharged & not honorably

nope, i want him COURT MARTIALED! (threatening people, sleeping with people under his command, beating people of the same rank (also i hate telford as much as him), leaving rush on that planet...etc. - would find more if i really looked)

SPACE FOR EDITING (just read that one posting and had to replie right away!)

greeting LAX

jamaica2099
April 10th, 2010, 08:01 AM
In when Wray wanted Colonel Young to chose the "right" 15 people to go on the only shuttle on the planet. Young's reply was "These are all the wrong people."

Nuff said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For now.

Briangate78
April 10th, 2010, 08:07 AM
What Brian said. :)

Woo hoo! Someone agrees with me! :p

Anyway rated this episode 9/10. Again a nice mix of drama, action, and adventure. It felt a little like BSG but not quite, still felt like Stargate.

s09119
April 10th, 2010, 08:22 AM
The gang on Destiny still do have civilians technically over them. Young reports to O'Neill who reports to the President.

However, what is also true, and which the stories so far have not embraced or explored well, is that Destiny is on a one-way journey and these people are not going home. This has been left unresolved for too long. If they want a civilian government on the ship then they will have to form one, which does not mean mutiny!

Enough time has elapsed in the SGA story-line where they really ought to have worked this out farther by now. I think the story is dragging a bit here, and there should have been more conflict over this already. Throwing in a few unmitigatedly despondent individuals (e.g., suicides) might be reasonable also, as well as other types of fights than just the Rush/Young battle for the alpha male.

While I enjoyed this episode, in some ways SGA still is struggling with having all the characters acting like high-schoolers. That fits the young Chloe character, and the psychopathically narcissistic Rush character, but seems wrong for so many of the other characters.

Young would never cede command to civilian leadership for the long haul willingly, hence the actions of the civilians.

Commander Zelix
April 10th, 2010, 08:41 AM
The gang on Destiny still do have civilians technically over them. Young reports to O'Neill who reports to the President.

However, what is also true, and which the stories so far have not embraced or explored well, is that Destiny is on a one-way journey and these people are not going home.
I completely agree with that. It remind me of the slow progression on Voyager when people slowly had to accept that Voyager might become a generational ship. But this facet wasn't explored yet on the Destiny.

reddevil18
April 10th, 2010, 08:45 AM
I completely agree with that. It remind me of the slow progression on Voyager when people slowly had to accept that Voyager might become a generational ship. But this facet wasn't explored yet on the Destiny.Slow progression on Voyager? That was one of the most annoying aspects of Voyager. How the crew just put their differences aside in like 5 minutes. And there was no real sense of desperation, even if they thought they wouldn't make it home in their lifetimes. That sense of desperation was seen in Year Of Hell, but then they used the good ol' reset button and all was okay.

The_Asgard_live
April 10th, 2010, 08:45 AM
...
Nevermind that the only reason she was taken was because during a battle she thought it would be a good idea to stand under a freshly cut hole in the ship and stare up. No doubt she figured it was a spotlight built just for her.
...

When I read someone's line about Chloe's function being that of a backup MALP, I thought that was the funniest thing I had read on this site. this is just as good! Brilliant.

Quinn Mallory
April 10th, 2010, 08:47 AM
I like the direction that these episodes are taking. Another positive step for SGU.

Vapor
April 10th, 2010, 09:01 AM
Slow progression on Voyager? That was one of the most annoying aspects of Voyager. How the crew just put their differences aside in like 5 minutes. And there was no real sense of desperation, even if they thought they wouldn't make it home in their lifetimes. That sense of desperation was seen in Year Of Hell, but then they used the good ol' reset button and all was okay.

http://i1011.photobucket.com/albums/af238/xirox/mjthis.jpg

Gods, yes. They had such great potential with the start of that show, but they shot it all away for the sake of random adventures where the crew barely faced any serious interpersonal drama and were always just fine and dandy at the end of almost every single episode.

Don't get me wrong, there were things I liked about Voyager, but I'm glad SGU seems to be taking a much bumpier course with regard to the sense of desperation and crew divisions.

Commander Zelix
April 10th, 2010, 09:05 AM
Slow progression on Voyager? That was one of the most annoying aspects of Voyager. How the crew just put their differences aside in like 5 minutes. And there was no real sense of desperation, even if they thought they wouldn't make it home in their lifetimes. That sense of desperation was seen in Year Of Hell, but then they used the good ol' reset button and all was okay.
Its completely false. Obviously Voyager is about enlightened human from the 24th century (with no capitalism, no violence etc). But thats the premise of Star Trek. Especially since the next generation. I still think its great Voyager is not another BSG, SAAB or SGU. If you want dark and gritty, you don't look at TNG or Voyager. The Sci-fi premise of those show is: How are more civilized human in the future will react to such and such situation? You don't like it, you don't watch it. Don't get me wrong, Ive watched the Saw movies, Batman Begins with excitement. I'm just glad to have original and different stuff on TV.

But to get back on topic, Voyager did have a slow progression on the acceptance of their situation. The only thing that was resolved too fast in my opinion is the conflict with the Marquis. Even if you keep the enlightened human premise intact, it can be fun to have a bunch of people who don't think likewise (but eventually turns out to be wrong). Episodes like The Void were good example of it. Or the episode where the ex-marquis tries to steal some form of hyperdrive from Aliens to make the Voyager go faster (back to earth).

I don't think the possibility of SGU becoming a generational ship was discussed on the show yet. Understandably since its only been a few weeks. At this point, Destiny is still under civilian authority back on earth. It made the episode a bit pointless.

Yoshi442
April 10th, 2010, 09:14 AM
I disagree that Voyager had a slow progression. They pretty much killed the tension by episode two or three when B'elanna suddenly decided she liked and admired the captain. And Star Trek can do dark and gritty, hence DS9.

Commander Zelix
April 10th, 2010, 09:18 AM
I disagree that Voyager had a slow progression. They pretty much killed the tension by episode two or three when B'elanna suddenly decided she liked and admired the captain. And Star Trek can do dark and gritty, hence DS9.
DS9 was more dark and gritty and was a good show too (even if I prefer Voyager). Same thing as the movies Saw or Batman Begins which were great. I just don't think every shows must be alike. I agree that the marquis conflicts could have been resolved slower, and still live up to the basic original premise of the show (instead they used rogue action by Paris, Belanna, Seven, etc from time to time), but its not the same thing as the acceptance that they will never get back to earth. Thats another storyline. Which wasn't explored yet on SGU at the moment of the mutiny.

carmencatalina
April 10th, 2010, 09:18 AM
I've just read this whole thread - so much interesting discussion! I think I need to see the episode again, but let's just say I liked it and I can't wait to see what happens next.

One thing from all of the comments that jumped out at me:


Rush was afraid Young would airlock him because of the tracking device. Instead he got a surgical team together to save his life.

Rush is now clearly scared of Young - Carlyle is doing an amazing job of showing us how backed up against the wall Rush is feeling. But I disagree that Young's motivation was to save Rush's life. His first reaction to finding out that Rush was implanted with the alien device?

"T.J., get it out of him."

My thinking is that he would have gladly stood by and watched T.J. or anyone else just carve it out of him, whether or not he survived the operation (or dissection!) would have been completely secondary.

Unless I'm mistaken, Young didn't come up with the idea of getting an expert to help (Wray? Someone else?) - when T.J. protested that she didn't have the skills to do it, he kept insisting that it be done. Others pulled together to come up with a plan that wouldn't kill Rush in the process.

Freakiest thing? Rush starting to come to while they were still wrist-deep in his chest. Vivisection! Cool. Horrifying, but cool. I'm wondering if they have enough antibiotics - the chances that they had an actual sterile field during that operation are pretty much nil, and in the real world, dude would go septic and die pretty quick without a drain/shunt and some serious antibiotics. But that's medical reality, not TV reality.

All in all, tense, and full of great moments. A thought - can you ever really trust someone again that you know will kill you without hesitation? Are the military really there to protect the civilians anymore, or to police them?

That's the question the civilians have to ask themselves - I think that's the question in your mind after lying on the ground with a gun pointed at your head.

Briangate78
April 10th, 2010, 09:21 AM
Rush took a different direction in this episode. He was scared to let Young know about the tracking device. He got support from everyone, even Young. Rush has his goals, but I think he will make sure not to harm anyone or manipulate anyone to get to his goals.

I think Chloe who could not stand Rush before is growing because she now can sit down with Rush have a conversation. Before she could not even look at him. So things have changed.

It is going to be the friendship bonds that will make this crew survive. If they cannot see eye to eye, they will be destined to fail and likely be killed by an outside threat. Even Young compromised and let Eli keep the shields to full power.

They have to resolve this Civillian vs Military thing before......

The aliens and lucian alliance come

Briangate78
April 10th, 2010, 09:25 AM
I've just read this whole thread - so much interesting discussion! I think I need to see the episode again, but let's just say I liked it and I can't wait to see what happens next.

One thing from all of the comments that jumped out at me:



Rush is now clearly scared of Young - Carlyle is doing an amazing job of showing us how backed up against the wall Rush is feeling. But I disagree that Young's motivation was to save Rush's life. His first reaction to finding out that Rush was implanted with the alien device?

"T.J., get it out of him."

My thinking is that he would have gladly stood by and watched T.J. or anyone else just carve it out of him, whether or not he survived the operation (or dissection!) would have been completely secondary.

Unless I'm mistaken, Young didn't come up with the idea of getting an expert to help (Wray? Someone else?) - when T.J. protested that she didn't have the skills to do it, he kept insisting that it be done. Others pulled together to come up with a plan that wouldn't kill Rush in the process.

Freakiest thing? Rush starting to come to while they were still wrist-deep in his chest. Vivisection! Cool. Horrifying, but cool. I'm wondering if they have enough antibiotics - the chances that they had an actual sterile field during that operation are pretty much nil, and in the real world, dude would go septic and die pretty quick without a drain/shunt and some serious antibiotics. But that's medical reality, not TV reality.

All in all, tense, and full of great moments. A thought - can you ever really trust someone again that you know will kill you without hesitation? Are the military really there to protect the civilians anymore, or to police them?

That's the question the civilians have to ask themselves - I think that's the question in your mind after lying on the ground with a gun pointed at your head.

I think the writers are trying to make us see that there is tension, but that the characters are trying to work out their differences. I think when something bad happens on a grand scale, these characters will become closer and start to trust eachother.

The alien abduction have seemed to make Chloe and Rush closer. So again, it is good to see a big payoff result in character development.

I don't think Young or Rush are bad, they are just looking for the greater good, and sadly it is a conflinct of interest by how they want to get to the greater good.

carmencatalina
April 10th, 2010, 09:32 AM
I do like Young, but I see him as flawed. (Rush being flawed pretty much goes without saying, right?)

During last night's episode, there were a couple of times when I could have kicked Young for doing things that, while they made perfect sense insofar as how to get control of the ship back, were exactly the wrong thing to do - they have to all live together after this.

I think it is good writing (and good acting!) that makes Young this character for me that I just am so frustrated with - I keep thinking - I know you are a better man than this!

jelgate
April 10th, 2010, 09:34 AM
I think the writers are trying to make us see that there is tension, but that the characters are trying to work out their differences. I think when something bad happens on a grand scale, these characters will become closer and start to trust eachother.

The alien abduction have seemed to make Chloe and Rush closer. So again, it is good to see a big payoff result in character development.

I don't think Young or Rush are bad, they are just looking for the greater good, and sadly it is a conflinct of interest by how they want to get to the greater good.

No matter how many times people say that I just don't see it.

Kaiphantom
April 10th, 2010, 09:41 AM
Another good episode, so let's get right into it!

Young - He may be learning. He recognizes that it was his fault that led to this, because he stranded Rush. In some respects, he didn't do what he should (I was expecting something of a speech about how they have to learn to get along), but he did give the nod to Wray, so I'll see how well he follows through on further episodes. Props for not shunting Rush out an airlock, although it's sad that I have to give him credit for this. It could be because Rush just saved his life earlier.

Rush - Logical. Young abandoned him once, so it was a good assumption that he might do it again. I don't see him as manipulative so much, because that implies getting someone to do what they normally wouldn't. Wray already had the civilians wanting the military to no longer be in control; Rush merely offered his support in getting it done. And he did back down and save Scott and Young, when confronted, but it could have been because he would have lost support with the civilians.

Eli - His naive and straightforward truthful nature is continuing to have pros and cons. He has been a wee bit... weak, with regards to doing as ordered like spying on people, when he should know better. But he's still the voice of reason on the show so far. He's doing a good job portraying a nerd without much social experience, so he can't tell what some people might really do. So biggest thing is that he really needs to learn and grow up a bit more, and recognize the signs in front of his face: everyone is using him.

Chloe - did a bit of growing, which I expected to happen once she stood apart from Scott. He's really holding her character back, so I give her props for this. She would have known it would become and issue between them, so either she didn't much care, or figured she could smooth him over with sex later. If they are still together after this, I'll know which one it was. Once the writers can get her out of the "sexy woman in a sexy relationship" mode, she'll eventually be able to grow more. Strange that her most useful actions in this episode, was manipulating Eli and then giving up her body for someone better, heh. I have a feeling she's either pregnant, or soon to be, which will set her down the stereotypical path of mother, thus giving her a typical woman's role. Would be a disappointment in that respect.

Scott - Biggest test will be whether he takes Chloe back, thereby showing he's whipped; I mean, the woman was part of the movement that almost killed you. Like Chloe, his biggest growth will happen once he's apart from her. I could sense the jealousy off him when he saw her talking to Rush. But with Chloe's possible pregnancy, I fear he will be set down a stereotypical path, too.

Wray - Good moves on her part. She is right when she said all military answers to a civilian authority, and that's been lacking on the ship. Time will tell if Young relents, perhaps sharing some power with a civilian oversight committee. It's funny that I didn't much like her early on, but she's really grown on me throughout the series, as she's been fleshed out and given more depth and we see her intelligence.

James and Greer were a bit rough; not surprising for the latter, but it was surprising for the former. Given that she was crying last episode, I assume she's got something pent up that might account for it. Hopefully she'll get some development and we'll see it. TJ was a bit suprising; I liked her early on, but her scene with Chloe made me wince. I fear her character will degrade when more about Young and her comes to the fore.

Overall, not bad; I'm glad it didn't create an instant happy "we're all in this together!" type family, but I do expect some resolution. This type of conflict can't continue forever or it risks becoming old and stupid. Understandable in this season, but they do need to slowly meld together.

erotavlas
April 10th, 2010, 09:46 AM
this episode was very good, my favorite aspect of it was that I did not know what was going to happen. There were several moments where things could have gone either way and you just couldn't tell which way.

The main one was (starting from episode Space) when Rush and Camile were conspiring with the civilians to take care of Young. I actually thought they were going to get rid of him (i.e. kill him or desert him somewhere) We had no idea what their plan was. The way the story flowed I actually thought that Rush's intention was to have the ship jump to FTL and either vaporizing Scott and Young or abandoning them on the shuttle. We didn't learn about the control transfer until it was happening.

Another time was when Rush was preparing to divert all power to the shields at the same time Young and Scott were trying to pass through the hole in the hull. I didn't know if Young or Scott would make it through the hole before he powered up the shield.

honestly this show really keeps you thinking and wondering which makes it a great story.

Briangate78
April 10th, 2010, 09:46 AM
No matter how many times people say that I just don't see it.

Wha? You don't want to see Rush chat with your girl? :p

jelgate
April 10th, 2010, 09:51 AM
Wha? You don't want to see Rush chat with your girl? :p

Lets not take this about me. I just don't see Rush and Chloe developing a friendship. Just that they agreed on something. Thats a long way from friendship

carmencatalina
April 10th, 2010, 09:54 AM
Did anyone else catch what Rush said about making sure Chloe wasn't implanted? Something like "She doesn't have a surgical scar."

Did Rush do an examination? That's an interested un-aired scene, to say the least.

Coronach
April 10th, 2010, 09:59 AM
Did anyone else catch what Rush said about making sure Chloe wasn't implanted? Something like "She doesn't have a surgical scar."

Did Rush do an examination? That's an interested un-aired scene, to say the least.

Haha, it was an interesting line. But Chloe could have examined herself for a surgical scar on her own chest.

carmencatalina
April 10th, 2010, 10:01 AM
Unless they don't always implant the device in the chest. Or through the front of the chest cavity.

Coronach
April 10th, 2010, 10:03 AM
Unless they don't always implant the device in the chest. Or through the front of the chest cavity.

This is true. Maybe she felt around her entire body for a scar? Just saying, I'm pretty doubtful that it was Rush who "examined" her, :P.

carmencatalina
April 10th, 2010, 10:06 AM
This is true. Maybe she felt around her entire body for a scar? Just saying, I'm pretty doubtful that it was Rush who "examined" her, :P.

Really? I think I would be more than willing to have someone look at me all over for a scar in that situation - hello, alien implantation device? Creepy!

carmencatalina
April 10th, 2010, 10:07 AM
I smell a fanfiction. PWP, definitely.

Snicker.

Coronach
April 10th, 2010, 10:11 AM
Really? I think I would be more than willing to have someone look at me all over for a scar in that situation - hello, alien implantation device? Creepy!

Lol, that's not a bad point. Maybe she did! I certainly have no idea. :P

Briangate78
April 10th, 2010, 10:15 AM
Lets not take this about me. I just don't see Rush and Chloe developing a friendship. Just that they agreed on something. Thats a long way from friendship

Dude, relax, I am just kidding around with you. One thing this forum needs is less seriousness. We are here to have fun and discuss our favorite show. I was not trying to insult you. If it came across that way, I apologize.

MattSilver 3k
April 10th, 2010, 10:20 AM
Dude, relax, I am just kidding around with you. One thing this forum needs is less seriousness. We are here to have fun and discuss our favorite show. I was not trying to insult you. If it came across that way, I apologize.

You said WHAT about my MOTHER, BRIAN! You're all like dead to me man... :P

garhkal
April 10th, 2010, 10:38 AM
Well, Rush did.

It just looked like he suspected they would be back quickly.


Also, they've already shown stopping the Destiny stargate from shutting down prevents the Destiny going into FTL, if they need more time, why don't they dial the gate and shove something halfway in it? They've already done it before!
A) cause they did not have the pwer to dial.
B) it seens the gate DIALS automatically and there were no gates nearby to dial into)
C) if you watched, the shields were failing AS we went into FTL. Had we stayed we would have more than likely gotten blown up!

Sp!der
April 10th, 2010, 10:53 AM
i thought this epi was even better than the previous one. but i hoped that they would unite in order to stop the aliens from fireing the destiny, but i guess the hatred goes deep. and i think chloes development was not believable. but maybe thats just me.

myhelix
April 10th, 2010, 11:12 AM
Great Episode!

Also the start was a bit slow, but the conclusion rocks!
I like the fact that Rush looks to be in serious distress after the alien encounter and also he give Young such a fearful look once in a while. Maybe because he is afraid Young will kill him any second or he is troubled because Young seems always to know when he is laying again?

Very clever they use the alien venom from the Ep. "Time" as narcotic, nasty side effect, Rush wakes up under surgery.

Also like the fact that Eli really don´t know who he can trust any longer, and he kind of saves the day at the end by saying the truth.

Besides Eli, I think Scott and TJ really stand out in "Divided" , they seem to be the ones that really care about the well being of the rest of the crew.
And thumps up for Chloe, too!

Lt. James overreacted with hitting the guy in the face.

I still wonder why Young don´t tell anyone his side of the Story? Did he feel so guilty about the "leaving behind" thing that he don´t think that the fact Rush framed him for murder is better than the things he has done. Or does he wait till the right time has come?

overall 9/10

Blackhole
April 10th, 2010, 11:33 AM
I thought the civilian vs military conflict played out well for the most part, but I don't fully get the civilians' argument. Ideally the military should be under civilian control, but they're hardly in ideal circumstances and it's not as if the civilians, aside from Eli and Chloe, are unused to being under military command, they were all serving on Icarus for months I believe. I dunno, it just felt like a big jump to go from discontent to all out mutiny so quickly.

I share your view. The whole coup d'état scenario made for good drama but was imo very unrealistic and premature. The whole “military should be under civilian control” argument was silly. All the civilians are scientists; very educated with high IQs, they are not for a minute going to expect that anyone would regard that argument as anything but a poor pretense. Stargate Command has been under military command from its inception. Everyone who has come on board is fully aware of this. They all know crisis situations require a clear chain of command.

Young has been committed to getting everyone home. Prior to stranding Rush what decisions has he made that weren’t in the crew’s best interests? All of the crew is fully aware that it was Rush that stranded them on Destiny not Young. I think most would probably question whether Rush will do everything in his power to get them home as soon as possible and some may in fact suspect he will covertly impede them.

After discovering that Young had lied and left Rush to die on the planet, I can understand how many would question his continued fitness to command and want him replaced. But even if Young hadn’t revealed that he had proof that Rush was behind the framing attempt, everyone would still wonder who had put the gun in Young’s quarters. It wouldn’t be much of a stretch for intelligent scientists to suspect that Rush probably along with Wray had the most to gain from discrediting Young and were likely behind the attempt to remove him. The scientists wouldn’t approve of marooning Rush but they certainly would understand that Rush had severely provoked him.

Wray’s statements that civilians don’t like having guns pointed at them as justification for the coup doesn’t hold any water. When have Young and the military under his command used force inappropriately to try and coerce anyone?

Staging a coup on the heels of a barely thwarted alien invasion was supremely foolish. The military has guns because they are the only ones trained to use them effectively in battle. Most of the civilians would have thought it through and realized this. Even if Rush had been successful in completely transferring the command to their side of the ship and had forced the military to disarm, what happens if the aliens attack again or there is another crisis situation that requires their defense? Do they give the guns back? The military would just retake the ship or worse the ship wouldn’t be properly defended and everyone ends up as a lab rat in an alien zoo.

A far more reasonable approach to replace Young at least in my mind was to take the problem to Earth. Stargate Command may be persuaded to sanction his removal. Another leader would take over command and a catastrophic crew division would be averted.

The only reason the coup happened when it did was Wray wants to seize power and doesn’t care about the consequences and Rush was afraid that if Young was still in command when it came out he had a tracking device implanted in his chest that Young would kill him. Neither of them had the best interests of the ship in mind when they initiated the coup.

Blackhole
April 10th, 2010, 11:39 AM
In general I liked this episode. There were several problems brewing and it was only a question of when it was going to blow up. This being said...

What the heck were the civilians hoping to accomplish by taking the ship? They had no realistic objectives which could last longer than the time it took for Young (ie. the military) to squash them. Rush had objectives (1. kill Young, Scott's a bonus; 2. take over control of the ship; 3. have everyone dance around at my command while I use Wray as a buffer between me and the rest of the little people). Wray had an objective (1. I wanna' be Madam President).

The rest of the civilian crew... (an ongoing refrain of "Show me the way to go home.")

There should have been some screen time (over various previous episodes) devoted to the discussions of what Rush/Wray were going to achieve by the take-over. I would have liked to have seen the spin-doctoring by Rush and Wray to bring people on side. All we did see were several scenes of discontented civilians and nothing of organization or hard objectives.

Civilian Objectives:

1.) Disarming the military - Yes, they would disarm the military. And then what? How do they get the weapons back the very first time that the military is needed to defend the ship?

2.) Leadership - Would they really want Rush to decide the big questions for them? He certainly wouldn't want to be bothered with all the little questions. What sort of military experience does he have? The shield decision in this episode was a science question based upon info known only to Rush, it was not a military decision. The military, with or without Young, would not trust Rush and would view any orders he gave with extreme suspicion ("I'm willing to die in the course of my duty, but my duty does not include me doing something risky so Rush can get an answer to a question"). And worse, what sort of interpersonal skills does he have? The only person who likes Rush is..., well I'm not sure even Rush likes Rush. Further, when it became known how he killed Young and Scott (and that is how it would be viewed) all his support would evaporate. There's also a likelihood he would find himself on the pointy end of someone's knife. At best, he could hope to be the guy behind the throne whispering in the ear of the queen.

And speaking of Wray, what authority does she have other than being the leading member of the IOA on the mission (ie. the only member), and not a particularly significant one at that? I do like the character and the actor, and I hope she is around for a long time, however, Wray is not qualified to decide science or military questions, and she certainly would not be viewed as such by the rest of the science types. She wants to be in charge, AND THEN DO WHAT with the power? Is Rush going to be any more malleable because she's calling the shots? Perhaps, until he decided to buck her authority. Would any of the other scientists recognize her authority beyond the first time she "no" to something they wanted? Would the military snap to and salute every time she entered the room? How would she enforce her decisions on them? If Rush or any other scientist decided not to play ball does she go against her "allies" and call in the military? And if the military decided not to obey her orders on some military related issue, then where are they?

Government - there was a call for a civilian government on Destiny with the military being subservient to the will of that civilian government. Question: when did Destiny become a separate political body from any Earth control, and why would anyone think that the military would feel obliged to support such a government? And if they are freeing themselves of military control why stop there? Bonus question - Why not stop listening to the IOA as well?

They were a military expedition on Icarus with Wray as the IOA rep, however she was no Weir or Woolsey with regard to her ability and what kind of power she wielded on that base. How was this "government" going to be formed? Were they going to have elections? Who would oversee these elections? Would Chloe put her Pol-Sci degree to some kind of use? Would the military guys actually be allowed to run candidates or even get a vote? Assuming these questions were answered, what if someone other than Wray or Rush actually won said election? How would that sit with these two power brokers?


How I see this ending up is with Wray becoming a figurehead leader supported by Young, let's call it a shogunate. Young uses Wray to mollify the civilians and deal with the "HR" issues which allows him more time to darn his socks. Rush will be on the outside trying to use Wray (or anyone else) to get what he wants.

Destiny continues.

regards,
G.

Good Post. I wrote and posted my post before reading yours. I agree with everything you have said.

kymeric
April 10th, 2010, 11:44 AM
I share your view. The whole coup d'état scenario made for good drama but was imo very unrealistic and premature. The whole “military should be under civilian control” argument was silly. All the civilians are scientists; very educated with high IQs, they are not for a minute going to expect that anyone would regard that argument as anything but a poor pretense. Stargate Command has been under military command from its inception. Everyone who has come on board is fully aware of this. They all know crisis situations require a clear chain of command.

Young has been committed to getting everyone home. Prior to stranding Rush what decisions has he made that weren’t in the crew’s best interests? All of the crew is fully aware that it was Rush that stranded them on Destiny not Young. I think most would probably question whether Rush will do everything in his power to get them home as soon as possible and some may in fact suspect he will covertly impede them.

After discovering that Young had lied and left Rush to die on the planet, I can understand how many would question his continued fitness to command and want him replaced. But even if Young hadn’t revealed that he had proof that Rush was behind the framing attempt, everyone would still wonder who had put the gun in Young’s quarters. It wouldn’t be much of a stretch for intelligent scientists to suspect that Rush probably along with Wray had the most to gain from discrediting Young and were likely behind the attempt to remove him. The scientists wouldn’t approve of marooning Rush but they certainly would understand that Rush had severely provoked him.

Wray’s statements that civilians don’t like having guns pointed at them as justification for the coup doesn’t hold any water. When have Young and the military under his command used force inappropriately to try and coerce anyone?

Staging a coup on the heels of a barely thwarted alien invasion was supremely foolish. The military has guns because they are the only ones trained to use them effectively in battle. Most of the civilians would have thought it through and realized this. Even if Rush had been successful in completely transferring the command to their side of the ship and had forced the military to disarm, what happens if the aliens attack again or there is another crisis situation that requires their defense? Do they give the guns back? The military would just retake the ship or worse the ship wouldn’t be properly defended and everyone ends up as a lab rat in an alien zoo.

A far more reasonable approach to replace Young at least in my mind was to take the problem to Earth. Stargate Command may be persuaded to sanction his removal. Another leader would take over command and a catastrophic crew division would be averted.

The only reason the coup happened when it did was Wray wants to seize power and doesn’t care about the consequences and Rush was afraid that if Young was still in command when it came out he had a tracking device implanted in his chest that Young would kill him. Neither of them had the best interests of the ship in mind when they initiated the coup.

You say that now, but how would you feel after months of people with guns telling you what to do and not listening to a word you say when you're already pissed to be stuck there in the first place?

Confessor Rahl
April 10th, 2010, 11:46 AM
Blackhole... that was an excellent, excellent post. A perfect summary of my thoughts, its almost creepy :)

Blackhole
April 10th, 2010, 11:59 AM
You say that now, but how would you feel after months of people with guns telling you what to do and not listening to a word you say when you're already pissed to be stuck there in the first place?

When has the military told everyone what to do when it wasn't in a crisis situation and when have they ignored their requests?

Blackhole
April 10th, 2010, 12:00 PM
Blackhole... that was an excellent, excellent post. A perfect summary of my thoughts, its almost creepy :)

Thanks for the compliment. I suspect there are a lot of viewers that share our conclusions.

EvenstarSRV
April 10th, 2010, 12:11 PM
Staging a coup on the heels of a barely thwarted alien invasion was supremely foolish. The military has guns because they are the only ones trained to use them effectively in battle. Most of the civilians would have thought it through and realized this. Even if Rush had been successful in completely transferring the command to their side of the ship and had forced the military to disarm, what happens if the aliens attack again or there is another crisis situation that requires their defense? Do they give the guns back? The military would just retake the ship or worse the ship wouldn’t be properly defended and everyone ends up as a lab rat in an alien zoo.

The timing of it confused me, it wasn't that long after Space, I think, and I would think after an attack like that the civilians would like the military better, since it was in large part the actions of Young, Scott, Greer, James, and TJ that helped them get through that attack. Yes Rush did save Chloe, but he wouldn't have been able to do that if Young hadn't saved him first.

And while I can see some of the civilians being disgruntled enough to rebel, I found it harder to believe that all of them, aside from Eli, would be so unified so quickly behind the concept.



The only reason the coup happened when it did was Wray wants to seize power and doesn’t care about the consequences and Rush was afraid that if Young was still in command when it came out he had a tracking device implanted in his chest that Young would kill him. Neither of them had the best interests of the ship in mind when they initiated the coup.

I think the part about Rush is the best way I can rationalize to myself the speed of the mutiny, since both Wray and Chloe were surprised that they were doing it so soon. You're right, I think Rush knew that the aliens would find them sooner or later because of his device and he didn't want Young in command when that happened. Though really, since Young was the one pushing for TJ to remove it from Rush when he found out, if Chloe and Rush had gone to Young together about the device, I think they could have done the surgery and avoid the whole mutiny thing. But the of course we wouldn't have an episode. :P

Blackhole
April 10th, 2010, 12:17 PM
The timing of it confused me, it wasn't that long after Space, I think, and I would think after an attack like that the civilians would like the military better, since it was in large part the actions of Young, Scott, Greer, James, and TJ that helped them get through that attack. Yes Rush did save Chloe, but he wouldn't have been able to do that if Young hadn't saved him first.

And while I can see some of the civilians being disgruntled enough to rebel, I found it harder to believe that all of them, aside from Eli, would be so unified so quickly behind the concept.

I think the part about Rush is the best way I can rationalize to myself the speed of the mutiny, since both Wray and Chloe were surprised that they were doing it so soon. You're right, I think Rush knew that the aliens would find them sooner or later because of his device and he didn't want Young in command when that happened. Though really, since Young was the one pushing for TJ to remove it from Rush when he found out, if Chloe and Rush had gone to Young together about the device, I think they could have done the surgery and avoid the whole mutiny thing. But the of course we wouldn't have an episode. :P

I agree, the timing of the mutiny had much more to do with a dramatic purpose than a logical one.

jelgate
April 10th, 2010, 12:20 PM
I agree, the timing of the mutiny had much more to do with a dramatic purpose than a logical one.

And that is something that kind of bugs me. I find it highly inprobable that all but 6 of the civilians would munity.

garhkal
April 10th, 2010, 12:54 PM
Fantastic episode! Go Civilians! :P I had a feeling Rush was implanted, I thought Chloe was going to be implanted as well but I suppose not. I was a little sad TJ wasn't on the civilians side but hey I suppose she knows the military better. Glad to see the aliens back so soon. As cool as the mutiny in BSG was this had me on my edge a little more.

I was actually surprised he was implanted with a tracker. If anything i would have thought the aliens planted one on the ships hull.


# Lt. James? No civilian is going to trust her again.

After he comment of wanting someone last week, i can really see this as blackballing her chances now..


# Rush? I can agree with his reasoning, to a point, as yeah, Young would have deep-sixed him out an airlock.

Agreed. BUT he didn't. AS soon as he learned of it he ordered it cut out.


TJ for himself (and "corrupt" her)?....somehow hot girls often fly for idiots....strange, that is)

It seems in life as with film, the chicks go for the bad guys.


young's been a very fair leader IMO he's only lost control once and that was in justice. and young also admitted he regretted it. has everything young's done been perfect no. but find me something that HAS gone right for these people??

You forget his going off on that civilian in the corridor, his stoning back to earth and beating up telford, and technically you can also count the time he flat out told Gen Oneill he won';t be accepting orders anymore.


When Chloe used one of the stones to get a doctor to remove the tracking device from Rush, I'm wondering why it worked. The alien vessels were again in close proximity to the Destiny, and when Young attempted to use one last week to communicate with earth, he was transported to one of the alien ships, and it was assumed that happened because the two ships were in such close proximity.

Cause the alien that the stone was connected too was dead..


Well on a prior knowledge basis it seems quite foolish to let a bunch of aliens continue shooting at you without firing back. Unless you want to be a firey corpse. As for Divided once Eli thought it was the right idea Young did comply.

I give young props for that.. He saw that BOTH his chief scientists were on the same page and went with their recommendation (though i doubt he could have overriden it in time).


Pretty good episode, though I'm a bit disappointed the division didn't last that long. It's funny, I thought the first half was a bit slow-paced at times and now I'm finding the 2nd half to be rushing things in a way, getting Rush back within one episode and now starting and ending this mutiny within this one. Though as hinted in the preview the discontent will likely continue.

I was also hoping this would have dragged out over 2 or possibily even 3 eps..


Although I can't say I am surprised that he was almost willing to let Young and Scott die. Come on we know he would have done it if it wasn't for the intervention of Wray.

I think it was more chloe and eli's insistence than wray which got him to stop.


Much like the SGC or Atlantis. They had both military and civilians in those bases but were effectively both under control of the US government. I suppose you could argue they were under IOA control but thats not really the point.

But atlantis DID have civilians in charge.. So that right there shows it can and has been done.


Very lame for Young to not make any speech while in front of the civilians. He just stood there while people walked by him. It really shows he's not such a good leader.

It wasn't strange to me. He needs time to come up with a good speech.


But (and it's a huge "but") by using force and waving guns in people's faces, the military just proved that the civilians were right and that they can't trust their military "colleagues." The problem is basically that the civilians feared they weren't physically safe on board the Destiny. They were afraid, especially after Rush's return, that the instant they stepped out of line or irritated the military in any way, they would be staring down the barrel of a gun. Or stranded on a lifeless planet somewhere. They had doubts, and now the military's actions have just shown that their worst fears were all too accurate.

Yup. it is the same kind of irony that young made when he DID strand rush to die. He was being framed for a murder, and he went out and practically DID it.


Yeah, but she's learning at the feet of a master...

One wonders if he was trained by the master himself, palpaltine!


3. Very convenient that the control transfer shut down the shuttle docking clamps and nothing else, no? In fact I'd imagine the shuttle clamps would be a separate system to prevent any problems with the ship leading to the destruction of the shuttle

It did seem like a contrived 'hiccup' to force rush to stop the transfer of controls.


Eli's eye roll when Rush says, "I was hoping he didn't notice that."

Being how easy it seemed that they regained control, adn his comment, it makes me wonder if rush Wanted them to take control back quickly, since it seemed Wray was the one on the civilians side calling the shots. It would make HER look bad, and him less.


- I'm thinking, if Young's theory about Rush having a stone taken by the aliens is true, that the aliens jammed the communication stone signal during the surgery. An interesting idea if correct.


That would make for an interesting twist..
But i still think they will find a Ancient comm pedistal with stones sometime in the future, which is where the aliens got it from..


nope, i want him COURT MARTIALED! (threatening people, sleeping with people under his command, beating people of the same rank (also i hate telford as much as him), leaving rush on that planet...etc. - would find more if i really looked)

Heck the adultery and sexual harassment (which is what sleeping with TJ who is under his command would be considered) is or should be sufficient enough to get him court martialed.


And he did back down and save Scott and Young, when confronted, but it could have been because he would have lost support with the civilians.


As i mentioned above, i am actually thinking that was cause he WANTED them to get back in and take control back..


Haha, it was an interesting line. But Chloe could have examined herself for a surgical scar on her own chest.

Very true. There do seem to be a lot of mirrors around.


I still wonder why Young don´t tell anyone his side of the Story? Did he feel so guilty about the "leaving behind" thing that he don´t think that the fact Rush framed him for murder is better than the things he has done. Or does he wait till the right time has come?

Maybe he thinks they won't believe it and think he is making that up to look less guilty.

Joachim
April 10th, 2010, 01:05 PM
This is probably the first time I've ever felt revolted by TJ or James. Interesting.

Kaiphantom
April 10th, 2010, 01:34 PM
I share your view. The whole coup d'état scenario made for good drama but was imo very unrealistic and premature. The whole “military should be under civilian control” argument was silly. All the civilians are scientists; very educated with high IQs, they are not for a minute going to expect that anyone would regard that argument as anything but a poor pretense. Stargate Command has been under military command from its inception. Everyone who has come on board is fully aware of this. They all know crisis situations require a clear chain of command.

Perhaps you don't realize it, but a vast majority of the military of free nations ARE under the control of civilians. In the US, the Commander-in-chief is the President; a civilian. The founding fathers did that very deliberately, because they felt the military should be under total control of civilians. So Wray's remarks, far from being "silly" were extremely intelligent.

If you disagree, feel free to leave your advanced western civilized country, and go live in a military dictatorship sometime.

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 01:39 PM
Perhaps you don't realize it, but a vast majority of the military of free nations ARE under the control of civilians. In the US, the Commander-in-chief is the President; a civilian. The founding fathers did that very deliberately, because they felt the military should be under total control of civilians. So Wray's remarks, far from being "silly" were extremely intelligent.

If you disagree, feel free to leave your advanced western civilized country, and go live in a military dictatorship sometime.
Perhaps however you'd like to give some examples of Firebases on the ground in Afghanistan that are under direct civilian control however.

jelgate
April 10th, 2010, 01:39 PM
Perhaps you don't realize it, but a vast majority of the military of free nations ARE under the control of civilians. In the US, the Commander-in-chief is the President; a civilian. The founding fathers did that very deliberately, because they felt the military should be under total control of civilians. So Wray's remarks, far from being "silly" were extremely intelligent.

If you disagree, feel free to leave your advanced western civilized country, and go live in a military dictatorship sometime.
The thing is the Destiny isn't a separate country. Its a base set up by the US government or IOA depending how you look at it

Kaiphantom
April 10th, 2010, 01:47 PM
Perhaps however you'd like to give some examples of Firebases on the ground in Afghanistan that are under direct civilian control however.

I can't, because I don't. Those firebases are only there because the US, or other countries civilian governments are allowing them. Afghanistan's civilian government is also allowing them to operate in that mode, but they can be revoked and recalled at anytime... by civilians.


The thing is the Destiny isn't a separate country. Its a base set up by the US government or IOA depending how you look at it

That is one point of view.... but Destiny is far, far away from Earth, that it might as well be it's own country. It's a unique situation to be sure, but 80 people have to live together with not much help from anyone else; they have to form their own community to survive. And such a community under military rule, while necessary at first, cannot continue without undue hardship. The military exists to serve society... not vice versa.

I challenge those that disagree again... if you feel so strongly that the military is a better authority, then state up front what military dictatorship you'd like to live under. In short, put your principles into action. There is a very good reason why they are generally bad. If you need help deciding where to go, allow me to list the countries currently in one:

Burma
Fiji
Guinea
Libya
*****
North Korea

I recommend the last one, myself. It's been real good to it's citizens.

Edit: Heh, the forum censored one of the countries. If any mods(or anyone else) wants to take a look at this, I got my list from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_dictatorship

Scroll down a bit to the list of current cases, and you can find the one it censored, heh.

Joachim
April 10th, 2010, 01:49 PM
No. Icarus was a base set up by the government/IOA. Destiny is so far gone that it can hardly be called a "government base". It is purely under the control of Young, not the military as a whole, and there isn't much that the United States can do about that.

It is own entity, albeit loosely affiliated.

jelgate
April 10th, 2010, 01:52 PM
I can't, because I don't. Those firebases are only there because the US, or other countries civilian governments are allowing them. Afghanistan's civilian government is also allowing them to operate in that mode, but they can be revoked and recalled at anytime... by civilians.



That is one point of view.... but Destiny is far, far away from Earth, that it might as well be it's own country. It's a unique situation to be sure, but 80 people have to live together with not much help from anyone else; they have to form their own community to survive. And such a community under military rule, while necessary at first, cannot continue without undue hardship. The military exists to serve society... not vice versa.

I challenge those that disagree again... if you feel so strongly that the military is a better authority, then state up front what military dictatorship you'd like to live under. In short, put your principles into action. There is a very good reason why they are generally bad. If you need help deciding where to go, allow me to list the countries currently in one:

Burma
Fiji
Guinea
Libya
*****
North Korea

I recommend the last one, myself. It's been real good to it's citizens.

Edit: Heh, the forum censored one of the countries. If any mods(or anyone else) wants to take a look at this, I got my list from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_dictatorship

Scroll down a bit to the list of current cases, and you can find the one it censored, heh.

I never said I believe in military complerete rule but complete civilian rule is just as bad

The Mighty 6 platoon
April 10th, 2010, 02:06 PM
I can't, because I don't. Those firebases are only there because the US, or other countries civilian governments are allowing them. Afghanistan's civilian government is also allowing them to operate in that mode, but they can be revoked and recalled at anytime... by civilians.


So surround one of those firebases with Taliban, and now no matter what someone orders they can't get out. Still makes it a military command.

Kaiphantom
April 10th, 2010, 02:30 PM
So surround one of those firebases with Taliban, and now no matter what someone orders they can't get out. Still makes it a military command.

If ordered, by a civilian authority, the military in the firebase WILL attempt to fight it's way out. And considering they are better armed than the Taliban, well, it won't be too much of a fight. Oh, you're welcome for responding to you, while you have avoided answering my question. I assume you'll do so at your next convenience.


I never said I believe in military complerete rule but complete civilian rule is just as bad

If you have a better idea, humanity would like to hear it. As far as I know, though, you have two choices: Civilian or military rule. One need only look at history to see which one has played out better for it's citizens. Like platoon above, you haven't answered my question: Which country, ruled by the military, would you like to go to? Given your tone, it seems you prefer such a rule over civilian. Because you have avoided answering, I can only conclude that you like your comfy chair, in your warm house, and your nice laptop computer; all made possible by the civilian authority in the country you are located in.

Wanna take a guess as to why North Korean civilians don't have internet access? Or even electricity?

jelgate
April 10th, 2010, 02:33 PM
If ordered, by a civilian authority, the military in the firebase WILL attempt to fight it's way out. And considering they are better armed than the Taliban, well, it won't be too much of a fight. Oh, you're welcome for responding to you, while you have avoided answering my question. I assume you'll do so at your next convenience.



If you have a better idea, humanity would like to hear it. As far as I know, though, you have two choices: Civilian or military rule. One need only look at history to see which one has played out better for it's citizens. Like platoon above, you haven't answered my question: Which country, ruled by the military, would you like to go to? Given your tone, it seems you prefer such a rule over civilian. Because you have avoided answering, I can only conclude that you like your comfy chair, in your warm house, and your nice laptop computer; all made possible by the civilian authority in the country you are located in.

Wanna take a guess as to why North Korean civilians don't have internet access? Or even electricity?
Why don't you lose the snark. Our RL societies aren't compatiable because we aren't a dictatership at all. But with the Destiny thier has been no effort to find a cooperative method like most developed countries

Kaiphantom
April 10th, 2010, 03:01 PM
Why don't you lose the snark. Our RL societies aren't compatiable because we aren't a dictatership at all. But with the Destiny thier has been no effort to find a cooperative method like most developed countries

That's exactly right. And why is that? Because the military has assumed control, and doesn't want to entertain the idea of a cooperative method.

And it *still* doesn't change the fact that the "cooperative" method in 95% of developed countries involves civilian rule of the military. If you think military rule is better, I welcome you to submit your evidence. As for mine, well, I submit all of history and our current state of affairs, in addition to the specific evidence I presented above.

No form of human government is perfect. Churchill once famously said, "Democracy is the worst form of human government; except for all the others that have been tried." The reason military is bad, is because you don't have a say. You merely have to follow orders, or be shot. If I am the military commander in charge, and I tell you to stop posting or else, what would you do? That's the grim reality. A benevolent dictator with absolute power is actually the best situation, but humans aren't perfect. We all have dark desires in us, and a civilian government does a better job of keeping it in check. And regardless of how good your "perfect leader" might be, sooner or later, someone else is gonna fill those shoes; what are the chances they are near perfect, too?

Last point of fact; even if we declare the Destiny crew to be under Earth, that means that technically they are under the IOA, a civilian authority. Who is the IOA representative on Destiny? Wray.

But as Young proved earlier, they aren't under Earth's control, so they have their own society now.

carmencatalina
April 10th, 2010, 03:30 PM
I'm enjoying the "lively" discussion on the boards today - I can barely keep up! It seems to me that this episode was a good one - it certainly has "divided" the boards into differing opinions about the actions of the people on Destiny, on Col. Young's actions and qualities as a leader, and in general on the military/civilian split.

I can't remember the last time a TV episode has resulted in my reading so many posts about aspects of democracy, dictatorships, martial law, and leadership.

CCA
April 10th, 2010, 03:47 PM
Somebody needs to bust out WHY CAN'T WE BE FRIENDS song I know Greer had one of those hand held radios, he should play that. J/K anyhow. I really don't have too much to say but some quick notes till I can truly sit down and pull the episode apart.

Chloe, she wasn't to annoying for me this time around. Though I loved Scott gave her the shun, which if I was him I would.

TJ the line about "this is war, and this is what we are good at." Yeah she delievered that line great, and I think it was freaking great.

The scene where Young and Greer are running along the ship, yeah I had this image of Young getting stuck in the hole when they jumped down.

Though I don't agree with the civillians, I kind of liked how Wray was portrayed in this. She really stood out in this episode. Eli, caught in between in every sense of the word.

All in all, I really enjoyed the episode.

Blackhole
April 10th, 2010, 04:45 PM
Perhaps you don't realize it, but a vast majority of the military of free nations ARE under the control of civilians. In the US, the Commander-in-chief is the President; a civilian. The founding fathers did that very deliberately, because they felt the military should be under total control of civilians. So Wray's remarks, far from being "silly" were extremely intelligent.

If you disagree, feel free to leave your advanced western civilized country, and go live in a military dictatorship sometime.

Do you have any idea how many steps up the military chain of command there are above a typical small military unit until it reaches the civilian President? Are you suggesting that because the ultimate authority of our huge military is the President then Wray’s assertion has logical merit on Destiny and justifies their coup? Young should just politely acquiesce and step aside. This is especially convenient for Wray since she is the civilian she thinks should be in charge. Is this the rational you are defending?

How well do you think a “cooperative method of command” is going to work in a crisis? In the middle of an alien attack I can see several leaders sitting down and throwing ideas back and forth in committee to decide how to respond.

Kaiphantom
April 10th, 2010, 04:52 PM
Do you have any idea how many steps up the military chain of command there are above a typical small military unit it reaches the civilian President?

Yes. But the fact remains that ultimate authority lies with both Congress and the President. Congress authorizes action, and the President has the final say of how and when to deploy.


Are you suggesting that because the ultimate authority of our huge military is the President then Wray’s assertion has logical merit on Destiny and justifies their coup?

Not just our military, but every first world nation on Earth. That provides all the logical merit that's needed. Unless, of course, you'd like to argue that North Korea is somehow better off than South Korea?


Young should just politely acquiesce and step aside. This is especially convenient for Wray since she is the civilian she thinks should be in charge. Is this the rational you are defending?

Pretty much. Young has already taken the ship under his own control, out from under Earth. He has formed his own military dictatorship where he has supreme authority. And since I answered your questions, perhaps you can answer mine: Do you think a supreme military authority is a good idea? If so, would you like to select which country under military dictatorship you'd like to move to, since you favor that style of government over a civilian one?

Freshpez
April 10th, 2010, 05:24 PM
I'm almost going to declare a plot hole here for the sake of starting the mutiny.

Throughout the last few eps, the civilians have been muttering about Rush being abandoned by Young.

But have they been told that Young was framed by Rush? Have they been shown the video?

It would seem to me that the quickest way to have ended the standoff was for Eli to be sent into the civilian side of the line bearing his evidence of Rush's attempted framing. Wray and Rush would have lost support instantly. Young could also have mentioned the little matter of the Ancient Control Chair, and Rush's role in sending a scientist into a coma.

Couldn't Young have said something like, "So I hit him. I said, 'are we done?' We'll never be done he replied. So I head butted him. He was too heavy to drag back to the gate and get out alive, so I ran."

Where is that scientist and that chair by the way?

Secondly, did the crew forget already that Young voluntarily gave up command to Wray already? For the sake of unity in the crew when he'd been falsely accused of killing Spenser? Couldn't they have tried a sit in before locking the military in their rooms?

Blackhole
April 10th, 2010, 05:35 PM
Yes. But the fact remains that ultimate authority lies with both Congress and the President. Congress authorizes action, and the President has the final say of how and when to deploy.

Not just our military, but every first world nation on Earth. That provides all the logical merit that's needed. Unless, of course, you'd like to argue that North Korea is somehow better off than South Korea?

Pretty much. Young has already taken the ship under his own control, out from under Earth. He has formed his own military dictatorship where he has supreme authority. And since I answered your questions, perhaps you can answer mine: Do you think a supreme military authority is a good idea? If so, would you like to select which country under military dictatorship you'd like to move to, since you favor that style of government over a civilian one?

You are comparing nations to small military units. The analogy doesn’t hold. It is apples to oranges. The closest approximation to Destiny’s situation would be a ship lost in the middle of the ocean out of contact with its command. Since that isn't possible now, it would have to be a ship of several hundred years ago before radio.

I don’t agree that Young is a dictatorship. He is the ranking military officer and has legitimate command. I think it was a big mistake to lie about marooning Rush. However I think it was within his purview as commander to openly do so. Rush tried to frame him and remove him from command. On the open sea if someone from the crew tried something similar the captain was well within his right to deliver capital punishment to maintain discipline.

I get the feeling you are hung up on the military label. Just because they are in the military doesn’t mean they are evil or corrupt leaders. O’Neil and Hammond were military and excellent leaders. Kinsey was a civilian and was very corrupt and cowardly. It all depends who is doing the leading. I think Wray would make a far worse leader than Young. She has already demonstrated that she is far more self serving and has no real combat experience. Young definitely has his problems but who would be better is hard to say. All of SGU’s characters are flawed.

My choice to take over command would be TJ. In Water she demonstrated that she would make a very effective leader. Imo of all the crew she would make the best choice.

Khentkawes
April 10th, 2010, 05:38 PM
Rush is now clearly scared of Young - Carlyle is doing an amazing job of showing us how backed up against the wall Rush is feeling. But I disagree that Young's motivation was to save Rush's life. His first reaction to finding out that Rush was implanted with the alien device?

"T.J., get it out of him."

My thinking is that he would have gladly stood by and watched T.J. or anyone else just carve it out of him, whether or not he survived the operation (or dissection!) would have been completely secondary.

Unless I'm mistaken, Young didn't come up with the idea of getting an expert to help (Wray? Someone else?) - when T.J. protested that she didn't have the skills to do it, he kept insisting that it be done. Others pulled together to come up with a plan that wouldn't kill Rush in the process.

Freakiest thing? Rush starting to come to while they were still wrist-deep in his chest. Vivisection! Cool. Horrifying, but cool. I'm wondering if they have enough antibiotics - the chances that they had an actual sterile field during that operation are pretty much nil, and in the real world, dude would go septic and die pretty quick without a drain/shunt and some serious antibiotics. But that's medical reality, not TV reality.

All in all, tense, and full of great moments. A thought - can you ever really trust someone again that you know will kill you without hesitation? Are the military really there to protect the civilians anymore, or to police them?

That's the question the civilians have to ask themselves - I think that's the question in your mind after lying on the ground with a gun pointed at your head.

Tried to green you for this post, but I can't at the moment :(.
I agree that Young didn't care as much about saving Rush's life as he did about disabling the tracking device. Which makes sense, since his first responsibility should be the safety of the crew... but on the other hand, it definitely didn't help Young's case, since he has seemed far too ready to sacrifice people lately (especially those who he finds "inconvenient"... like Rush). And yeah, lying on the floor with a gun to your head would probably convince most people that they can't trust the military. Scott said it: " we have to live with these people tomorrow." It seems to me like everyone on the Destiny is forgetting that point.


I do like Young, but I see him as flawed. (Rush being flawed pretty much goes without saying, right?)

During last night's episode, there were a couple of times when I could have kicked Young for doing things that, while they made perfect sense insofar as how to get control of the ship back, were exactly the wrong thing to do - they have to all live together after this.

I think it is good writing (and good acting!) that makes Young this character for me that I just am so frustrated with - I keep thinking - I know you are a better man than this!

Still can't green you, sorry. But I still like what you're saying here.

I'm not sure if I "like" Young anymore. I did once, but now... I find him scary. I think he needs to own up to some of his mistakes and deal with the consequences instead of this mentality of "let's just pretend like it never happened." I do find Young interesting as a character, however. I just don't think I'd want to be stuck in the same room with him for very long. Still, your point is well-made: his character is well-written and well-acted to create this kind of frustrated, conflicted reaction from me.


The thing is the Destiny isn't a separate country. Its a base set up by the US government or IOA depending how you look at it

I find this argument a little confusing. I'm sure that's what the military would say, but I can't really conceive of the Destiny as a true military base, because it's cut off from the governing structure of the military. Neither the US government, nor the IOA can enforce order or hold the military responsible for their actions because at the moment they have no practical authority over the Destiny crew. They can't enforce orders, can't hold Young accountable for his actions, and they have no oversight abilities to make sure that the military is behaving properly. I've seen some people compare it to the SGC, but the military commander of the SGC was held accountable by higher military authorities. That's simply not the case here.

If anything, you could consider Destiny a former military operation that has gone rogue, since Colonel Young made it clear in "Earth" that they were going to make their own decisions and had no intention of following orders from the military authorities back on Earth. But even if Young hadn't made that decision, the government, the military command structure, and the IOA still can't govern the Destiny simply because they have no practical power over it. Given their situation, the crew of the Destiny have to make decisions on their own, and they have to come up with a command structure that works for them, totally independent of any help, advice, assistance, or oversight from the governments of Earth. Destiny is no longer part of the military hierarchy and command structure. Basically... they're on their own. Which makes Destiny is its own mini-society, playing out massive power-struggles on a miniature scale.

I think the point of this episode was to examine the Destiny as a microcosm of society, and consider some of these really hard questions that we've all been talking about. What happens when there is no outside authority, when leaders can't be held accountable for their actions, when the governing structures that you've come to accept and depend on suddenly cease to exist?

Gollumpus
April 10th, 2010, 06:00 PM
Last point of fact; even if we declare the Destiny crew to be under Earth, that means that technically they are under the IOA, a civilian authority. Who is the IOA representative on Destiny? Wray.

But as Young proved earlier, they aren't under Earth's control, so they have their own society now.

Frankly, as long as the long range communication system is active this whole control thing is absurd.

Any Stargate facility is under military command under the oversight of the IOA. To me that means an IOA rep fills the role of something akin to a political officer as seen in films like "Hunt for Red October" or "Das Boot". They have no actual power, are not in the CoC, and likely have no relevant experience. They have no duties other than to be looking over the military commander's shoulder and being a witness to every decision which is made, and then to report back to the political superiors at the end of the mission or tour of duty.

At no time does this political officer position actually have any day to day command ability (Woolsey was different in that he was given actual command of Atlantis). They do not direct battles. They do not set duty rosters. They are not consulted by the commander in case of an emergency. When Icarus base was being attacked there was not any kind of attempt on Young's part to seek a consultation with Wray as to how they should proceed during that crisis. Further, I do not recall Wray getting on the horn to get a quick briefing from Young and to then offer suggestions on how to proceed. I DO recall that Wray had her bags packed and she was waiting in the gateroom to be evacuated.

Wray was the ranking civilian authority on Icarus base (maybe. We don't know if there was anyone above her who didn't make it out). Wray is the ranking civilian authority on Destiny. Wray is also the only civilian authority on Destiny. Wray was some kind of human resources person. (Why such a person was needed on Icarus base is still a mystery to me. A different skill set would perhaps be more appropriate.) So, just because she is an IOA HR manager that makes her the best choice to lead the mission? Hardly.

The military contingent of the SGC have a mandate to defend the civilians who are under their protection from all threats. If necessary they are to lay down their lives to save others. That is their role. They go and check places out, provide escort and make sure that the non-combatants get back alive. This sort of thought would have been drilled into their heads from day one. I am not surprised that the military types are a little bit crazy because they are faced with a very difficult situation. Would it be nice if they eased off a little? Sure. I think that would be something we will see as the series continues.

The military ran Icarus base. The move from Icarus to Destiny does not mean that all bets are off as to how things are done. Young would see the situation as being nothing more than a change of venue for his command. Why would he feel obligated to consult with Wray on any issue beyond her supposed expertise in HR related issues? In pretty much any kind of emergency, Young would consult the science types in regard to what sort of issues may arise with Destiny (power, life support, shields, weapons). What would Wray be able to contribute to the discussion?

And frankly, I'm a bit ticked off at the civilian/scientist contingent. All they have done (for the most part) is whine about not being able to go home not being able to eat all of the food in the first few days of being on Destiny. What have they been prevented from doing since their arrival? They seem to have free run of the ship (at least the parts which have been checked and secured by the military) and as long as they don't run any experiments which impact on what Rush is doing they are left alone. These guys are intelligent, smart and capable. They also would likely have very strong egos. At some point they should have stepped up and directed their anger at Rush for being a constant jerk. These people should be able to get something done without Rush. If they are so reliant on him being around to get things accomplished then why not get rid of them?

regards,
G.

Kaiphantom
April 10th, 2010, 06:02 PM
You are comparing nations to small military units. The analogy doesn’t hold.

Not quite; the analogy does hold, if you go back through history and examine "why" people like our founding fathers put the military under the control of the civilians. Because what is good for the military, is never quite what is good for society in general. Most people can't live their lives the way the military does; witness the episode where they had civilians exercising until they threw up. Would you like to be ordered around like that?


I don’t agree that Young is a dictatorship. He is the ranking military officer and has legitimate command.

Not quite anymore. Remember Earth? Young has basically said "Screw you" to Earth's command, and that they'll do things the way they want to; take it or leave it. That's the sound of a dictator, not the sound of someone in a legitimate chain of command. If he was, he would be accepting of all orders.


I get the feeling you are hung up on the military label. Just because they are in the military doesn’t mean they are evil or corrupt leaders. O’Neil and Hammond were military and excellent leaders. Kinsey was a civilian and was very corrupt and cowardly. It all depends who is doing the leading. I think Wray would make a far worse leader than Young. She has already demonstrated that she is far more self serving and has no real combat experience. Young definitely has his problems but who would be better is hard to say. All of SGU’s characters are flawed.

Yes and no. You can pull specifics out all day long, but in general, civilians in control of the military is the ideal solution we've found so far as humans. Because in order for people to assent to be ruled, they have to honestly feel like they have a say in how things are done. That's not the case for Destiny now, which is why they revolted. And they will do it again. And again. And again.

In order to truly have peace, the military must sede power to a civilian authority.

Blackhole
April 10th, 2010, 06:06 PM
Frankly, as long as the long range communication system is active this whole control thing is absurd.

Any Stargate facility is under military command under the oversight of the IOA. To me that means an IOA rep fills the role of something akin to a political officer as seen in films like "Hunt for Red October" or "Das Boot". They have no actual power, are not in the CoC, and likely have no relevant experience. They have no duties other than to be looking over the military commander's shoulder and being a witness to every decision which is made, and then to report back to the political superiors at the end of the mission or tour of duty.

At no time does this political officer position actually have any day to day command ability (Woolsey was different in that he was given actual command of Atlantis). They do not direct battles. They do not set duty rosters. They are not consulted by the commander in case of an emergency. When Icarus base was being attacked there was not any kind of attempt on Young's part to seek a consultation with Wray as to how they should proceed during that crisis. Further, I do not recall Wray getting on the horn to get a quick briefing from Young and to then offer suggestions on how to proceed. I DO recall that Wray had her bags packed and she was waiting in the gateroom to be evacuated.

Wray was the ranking civilian authority on Icarus base (maybe. We don't know if there was anyone above her who didn't make it out). Wray is the ranking civilian authority on Destiny. Wray is also the only civilian authority on Destiny. Wray was some kind of human resources person. (Why such a person was needed on Icarus base is still a mystery to me. A different skill set would perhaps be more appropriate.) So, just because she is an IOA HR manager that makes her the best choice to lead the mission? Hardly.

The military contingent of the SGC have a mandate to defend the civilians who are under their protection from all threats. If necessary they are to lay down their lives to save others. That is their role. They go and check places out, provide escort and make sure that the non-combatants get back alive. This sort of thought would have been drilled into their heads from day one. I am not surprised that the military types are a little bit crazy because they are faced with a very difficult situation. Would it be nice if they eased off a little? Sure. I think that would be something we will see as the series continues.

The military ran Icarus base. The move from Icarus to Destiny does not mean that all bets are off as to how things are done. Young would see the situation as being nothing more than a change of venue for his command. Why would he feel obligated to consult with Wray on any issue beyond her supposed expertise in HR related issues? In pretty much any kind of emergency, Young would consult the science types in regard to what sort of issues may arise with Destiny (power, life support, shields, weapons). What would Wray be able to contribute to the discussion?

And frankly, I'm a bit ticked off at the civilian/scientist contingent. All they have done (for the most part) is whine about not being able to go home not being able to eat all of the food in the first few days of being on Destiny. What have they been prevented from doing since their arrival? They seem to have free run of the ship (at least the parts which have been checked and secured by the military) and as long as they don't run any experiments which impact on what Rush is doing they are left alone. These guys are intelligent, smart and capable. They also would likely have very strong egos. At some point they should have stepped up and directed their anger at Rush for being a constant jerk. These people should be able to get something done without Rush. If they are so reliant on him being around to get things accomplished then why not get rid of them?

regards,
G.

Excellent Post Very good job putting all the roles of the players in proper perspective.

EllieVee
April 10th, 2010, 06:14 PM
Slow progression on Voyager? That was one of the most annoying aspects of Voyager. How the crew just put their differences aside in like 5 minutes. And there was no real sense of desperation, even if they thought they wouldn't make it home in their lifetimes. That sense of desperation was seen in Year Of Hell, but then they used the good ol' reset button and all was okay.

The reason I stopped watching Voyager was because of this. I like how SGU is the slow build.

Kaiphantom
April 10th, 2010, 06:15 PM
Frankly, as long as the long range communication system is active this whole control thing is absurd.

Any Stargate facility is under military command under the oversight of the IOA. To me that means an IOA rep fills the role of something akin to a political officer as seen in films like "Hunt for Red October" or "Das Boot". They have no actual power, are not in the CoC, and likely have no relevant experience. They have no duties other than to be looking over the military commander's shoulder and being a witness to every decision which is made, and then to report back to the political superiors at the end of the mission or tour of duty.

At no time does this political officer position actually have any day to day command ability (Woolsey was different in that he was given actual command of Atlantis). They do not direct battles. They do not set duty rosters. They are not consulted by the commander in case of an emergency. When Icarus base was being attacked there was not any kind of attempt on Young's part to seek a consultation with Wray as to how they should proceed during that crisis. Further, I do not recall Wray getting on the horn to get a quick briefing from Young and to then offer suggestions on how to proceed. I DO recall that Wray had her bags packed and she was waiting in the gateroom to be evacuated.

Wray was the ranking civilian authority on Icarus base (maybe. We don't know if there was anyone above her who didn't make it out). Wray is the ranking civilian authority on Destiny. Wray is also the only civilian authority on Destiny. Wray was some kind of human resources person. (Why such a person was needed on Icarus base is still a mystery to me. A different skill set would perhaps be more appropriate.) So, just because she is an IOA HR manager that makes her the best choice to lead the mission? Hardly.

The military contingent of the SGC have a mandate to defend the civilians who are under their protection from all threats. If necessary they are to lay down their lives to save others. That is their role. They go and check places out, provide escort and make sure that the non-combatants get back alive. This sort of thought would have been drilled into their heads from day one. I am not surprised that the military types are a little bit crazy because they are faced with a very difficult situation. Would it be nice if they eased off a little? Sure. I think that would be something we will see as the series continues.

The military ran Icarus base. The move from Icarus to Destiny does not mean that all bets are off as to how things are done. Young would see the situation as being nothing more than a change of venue for his command. Why would he feel obligated to consult with Wray on any issue beyond her supposed expertise in HR related issues? In pretty much any kind of emergency, Young would consult the science types in regard to what sort of issues may arise with Destiny (power, life support, shields, weapons). What would Wray be able to contribute to the discussion?

And frankly, I'm a bit ticked off at the civilian/scientist contingent. All they have done (for the most part) is whine about not being able to go home not being able to eat all of the food in the first few days of being on Destiny. What have they been prevented from doing since their arrival? They seem to have free run of the ship (at least the parts which have been checked and secured by the military) and as long as they don't run any experiments which impact on what Rush is doing they are left alone. These guys are intelligent, smart and capable. They also would likely have very strong egos. At some point they should have stepped up and directed their anger at Rush for being a constant jerk. These people should be able to get something done without Rush. If they are so reliant on him being around to get things accomplished then why not get rid of them?

regards,
G.

Decent, but you ignore a few critical factors. Young essentially broke off his command from Earth. When a military unit does that normally, they are removed from command and court martialed. Since Young doesn't have a formal command anymore, he's a dictator. Also, during a military crisis, yes, the military take control. This isn't about a military crisis, though. This is about day-to-day runnings, and stuff which isn't urgent and *can* be talked about before a decision is made. Young just makes those by divine fiat now.

Wray is IOA, which does have direct control of the Stargate program. Since Young is no longer a valid military leader, Wray would nominally take over if so ordered by the IOA, and they've been pretty much pushing her to do so. But I'd say they need a civilian committee in charge, elected by the group. People need to have a say in their rulers, or it just doesn't work, for reasons I've outlined previously.

The point to remember is that Destiny is by itself, and has essentially broken away from Earth. So your points, while interesting, are ultimately not valid.

mjwalshe
April 10th, 2010, 06:16 PM
Excellent Post Very good job putting all the roles of the players in proper perspective.

Indeed a bunch of experianced scentists are not realy going to give Wray a HR bunny much credance in real life they would be considered by technical people as an over promoted CA or COMMO.

Girlbot
April 10th, 2010, 06:20 PM
I found this episode absolutely fascinating. Being spoilerless, I had no idea how this would work out. It had lots of suspense for me, and I loved that the military got the best of the civilians. What were they thinking. Wray and Rush will never have the same impact on the civilians, they were completely demoralized . and Scott's disillusionment with Chloe, I loved it. What a betrayal. I have been on Young's side from the beginning and this merely reinforced it for me.
Rush having kept one of the stones for himself, classic Rush behavior, and once again he put them in danger because of it. I was on the fence about whether this would become a long time committment for me to watch, but this episode proved they can really do some exciting things.

mjwalshe
April 10th, 2010, 06:28 PM
Perhaps you don't realize it, but a vast majority of the military of free nations ARE under the control of civilians. In the US, the Commander-in-chief is the President; a civilian. The founding fathers did that very deliberately, because they felt the military should be under total control of civilians. So Wray's remarks, far from being "silly" were extremely intelligent.

If you disagree, feel free to leave your advanced western civilized country, and go live in a military dictatorship sometime.

up to a point but the USA is unusual in that the president in theory can take direct controll of troops having said that after the AWI the only time this realy happend was during the 1812 war and medeling by Polaticians was the major factor in that embaresing Bladensburg Races incident which lead to the burning of the origional white house- the British also had a lucky hit with a congreve rocket.

Gollumpus
April 10th, 2010, 06:34 PM
In order to truly have peace, the military must cede power to a civilian authority.

So, what kind of civilian authority would we have on Destiny? Wray? Rush? Chloe? Someone else from the ranks of the civilians on board Destiny? Why would the civilian population suddenly feel better because a civilian is "in command"? What would change? Would there suddenly be more food? Would Destiny suddenly open up its data banks? Would they suddenly find the way home? How would their lot be improved?

What have the civilians been forced to do? They have been forced to ration their resources in the first several episodes. They have been forced to wait for a military okay that it is safe to go into as yet unexplored portions of Destiny or any new planets they reach. They have been forced to wait and study a piece of equipment (the chair) until it has been checked out prior to turning it on and seeing what it does. Yeah, I hate that kind of control. Stops me from eating all of my food so I can starve faster, or they stop me from getting myself killed by some sort of danger I might not have the experience to notice was there. I really hate that. Hate it!

Have the military types pointed guns and roughed up some of the civilians? Yes. However, outside of Sgt. Spencer (who had "issues") the military have been hands off on the civilians. When the civilians instigated disorder the military stepped in to restore order. Would I like to be in such a situation? No. However, I would like anarchy even less.

regards,
G.

ha'tak_
April 10th, 2010, 06:48 PM
THE best episode yet!!

Blackhole
April 10th, 2010, 07:23 PM
Not quite; the analogy does hold, if you go back through history and examine "why" people like our founding fathers put the military under the control of the civilians. Because what is good for the military, is never quite what is good for society in general. Most people can't live their lives the way the military does; witness the episode where they had civilians exercising until they threw up. Would you like to be ordered around like that?

You seem to have some deep seated bias against the military. Asserting that Destiny is some type of independent Nation State and therefore on historic and ideological grounds should be under civilian rule is imo quite a reach. However everyone has their own way of looking at things and you are certainly entitled to yours. At this point I think we should agree to disagree.


Not quite anymore. Remember Earth? Young has basically said "Screw you" to Earth's command, and that they'll do things the way they want to; take it or leave it. That's the sound of a dictator, not the sound of someone in a legitimate chain of command. If he was, he would be accepting of all orders.

You are right Young did assert his independence from earth. He said he would only make decisions he thought were in the best interest of the crew. Personally I agreed with his decision. I think Earth’s rescue plan was far too reckless and Young showed remarkable courage to stand up to them. So far I have agreed with Young’s decisions up to the point where he decided in a moment of anger to maroon Rush and lie about it. I also felt his decision to continue firing at the aliens when they were retreating may have been motivated out of a fear to prevent Rush’s return and was not in the best interests of the ship. If the civilians present their case to Earth and Stargate Command decides to replace him with someone else on board and he refuses to step down then I would agree with you that he may have crossed the line into a dictatorship. If the military contingent continued to support him in the face of Earth’s decision then a coup would become a far more appropriate action for the civilians. I don’t think this scenario would be likely as the military contingent would probably fall in line behind the new commander especially if they were a member of the military. Personally I think TJ would be the best choice. I don’t think Stargate Command would select anyone outside of the military contingent for this very reason.


Yes and no. You can pull specifics out all day long, but in general, civilians in control of the military is the ideal solution we've found so far as humans. Because in order for people to assent to be ruled, they have to honestly feel like they have a say in how things are done. That's not the case for Destiny now, which is why they revolted. And they will do it again. And again. And again.

In order to truly have peace, the military must sede power to a civilian authority.

I don’t think the civilians revolted because they didn’t have a say in their rule I think it was because they lost faith in Young when they found out he had lied about what really happened to Rush. They realized he made a life and death decision in a moment of anger. Understandably that is not something a good commander should ever do particularly given the extremely tense situation on the Destiny.

I can agree with the civilians loosing faith with Young but I don’t think their dissatisfaction would have been anywhere near the level required to have convinced all of them to go along with a coup. I think it was a plot device for the show to generate more intense drama.

Those on the Icarus Base were under military authority from its inception and I don’t agree that should change. Again we will have to agree to disagree.

Saquist
April 10th, 2010, 08:51 PM
I finally saw the last episode.

It's no longer as good as episode as I thought it was when I saw only the last part. I don't know where to begin.
OH yes, Contrivances. It seems everytime I look up there is a contrivance staring me in the face from an SGU episode.

I have to ask if they've been monitoring the ship so long then why didn't detect that Destiny's power was all gone by Darkness? Wouldn't that be the perfect time to attack. They could have had Destiny at go. Then the second contrivance...

The o so important resent button. Voyager was razed for resetting things back to begining with the ship the series, the damage and everything else...SGU has just reset things twice in too episodes with the phrase..."So it never happened."

The civilians take over the ship...(Never happened)
Rush frames Young for murder...(Never happened)
Young trys to strand Rush...(Never happened.)

It was almost a good episode with some open ended drama between the military and the civies...but they decided to pack up for later. I don't really know what to think. I think they want us to take SGU seriously and this certainly was a better episode than that snoozing Kin0sode series was from the beginning but wow..

When they said they gave up SGA for more serious writing...I didn't know it was merely going to transfer the contrivances from the tech to the people and the plot!

the fifth man
April 10th, 2010, 09:23 PM
THE best episode yet!!

Definitely one of, IMO.

Kaiphantom
April 10th, 2010, 09:44 PM
up to a point but the USA is unusual in that the president in theory can take direct controll of troops

It's not theory, it's fact. But it's not so much about this, as it's the general idea that the civilians control the military, because it works better. We tried the military controlling the civilians, and well.... it didn't work too well.


So, what kind of civilian authority would we have on Destiny? Wray? Rush? Chloe? Someone else from the ranks of the civilians on board Destiny? Why would the civilian population suddenly feel better because a civilian is "in command"? What would change? Would there suddenly be more food? Would Destiny suddenly open up its data banks? Would they suddenly find the way home? How would their lot be improved?

What have the civilians been forced to do? They have been forced to ration their resources in the first several episodes. They have been forced to wait for a military okay that it is safe to go into as yet unexplored portions of Destiny or any new planets they reach. They have been forced to wait and study a piece of equipment (the chair) until it has been checked out prior to turning it on and seeing what it does. Yeah, I hate that kind of control. Stops me from eating all of my food so I can starve faster, or they stop me from getting myself killed by some sort of danger I might not have the experience to notice was there. I really hate that. Hate it!

Have the military types pointed guns and roughed up some of the civilians? Yes. However, outside of Sgt. Spencer (who had "issues") the military have been hands off on the civilians. When the civilians instigated disorder the military stepped in to restore order. Would I like to be in such a situation? No. However, I would like anarchy even less.

regards,
G.

You conveniently forget a few facts; remember running them ragged that one of them threw up? You might want to rewatch, this time with a more critical eye as to why the civilians might be unhappy to be under military rule. I think you'd agree, that if you were forced to do a lot of things you didn't like, were roughed up occasionally, and constantly had some guy with a gun lording his power over you... you might be a bit put out, too.

For the record, my solution is a 3 person council, elected by crew. For most situations, this council is responsible for making the important decisions. In an emergency, the military can take direct control, such as when they are under attack.


You seem to have some deep seated bias against the military.

No, just military dictatorships. I had no problem with SG-1, and you'll remember that Atlantis had a civilian in charge for most of it's 5 year run, with the military answerable to it.


Asserting that Destiny is some type of independent Nation State and therefore on historic and ideological grounds should be under civilian rule is imo quite a reach. However everyone has their own way of looking at things and you are certainly entitled to yours. At this point I think we should agree to disagree.

You are right Young did assert his independence from earth. He said he would only make decisions he thought were in the best interest of the crew. Personally I agreed with his decision. I think Earth’s rescue plan was far too reckless and Young showed remarkable courage to stand up to them.

Best interests; good choice of words. For a military, though, the chain of command is absolute. Young should have followed it, and continued trying to follow it, regardless of his personal thoughts. The fact that you recognized that the military had a bad approach, shows you see the fundamental problems. What if Young is eventually brow-beaten to follow questionable orders again?


I don’t think the civilians revolted because they didn’t have a say in their rule I think it was because they lost faith in Young when they found out he had lied about what really happened to Rush....

I can agree with the civilians loosing faith with Young but I don’t think their dissatisfaction would have been anywhere near the level required to have convinced all of them to go along with a coup. I think it was a plot device for the show to generate more intense drama.

Then you weren't paying attention. People were unhappy, long before Rush got stranded. This was going on since the beginning; you might want to watch "Air" again. Ever since they arrived and Scott took command, and brow beat everyone else down because they had the guns. It was a good thing to do at the time, but as the situation progressed, it should have been eased, and a better arrangement made.


Those on the Icarus Base were under military authority from its inception and I don’t agree that should change. Again we will have to agree to disagree.

I suppose so. I believe different situations call for different arrangements. One size doesn't fit all.

Gollumpus
April 10th, 2010, 10:08 PM
Decent, but you ignore a few critical factors. Young essentially broke off his command from Earth. When a military unit does that normally, they are removed from command and court martialed.

Nope, they send Capt. Willard up the river to terminate the colonel's command with extreme prejudice. He's a few miles back... :P


Also, during a military crisis, yes, the military take control. This isn't about a military crisis, though. This is about day-to-day runnings, and stuff which isn't urgent and *can* be talked about before a decision is made. Young just makes those by divine fiat now.

You blithely say that the military would take control in a military crisis. So who decides when it's a military crisis? Would Wray or your suggested committee ponder the moment and then decide upon a course of action? Or does the military have a free hand to move on anything which they consider to be a threat? And if the military are reined in by the civilian authority and they still believe that there is an immanent threat, do they have a responsibility to disobey their orders to stand down? And what if the civilian authority decide they don't like the interpretation of orders which are made by the military? Who do they call upon to rein in the soldiers?

All I see you proposing here is replacing Young with Wray (or your proposed committee) in the dispensation of divine fiats.


Wray is IOA, which does have direct control of the Stargate program.

Yes, we saw an excellent example of that in episode seven where Young makes his statement about there being no further interference in his command and remarks that he hopes the crew can maintain contact with their families. The IOA man makes a comment which could be construed as a threat. O'Neill gives him a disgusted look and says, "Consider it done." I really felt the control the IOA wields of the SGC. Powerful. Direct. meh.


Wray would nominally take over if so ordered by the IOA, and they've been pretty much pushing her to do so

I don't see why the population of Destiny would be willing to recognize an IOA official as being an authority figure rather than the "invalid" Young which would bring us to your committee suggestion.


But I'd say they need a civilian committee in charge, elected by the group. People need to have a say in their rulers, or it just doesn't work, for reasons I've outlined previously.

Certainly. However, how large should this committee be? Who gets to run for a position? Who gets to vote? Does the military have a say? Are they allowed representation on this committee? What would constitute a quorum of this committee? If they couldn't get quorum due to various members of the committee not being available (death, illness, being on world) would they be able to make any kind of a legitimate decision?

If a portion of the citizenry decide to not abide with the decisions of the committee are the military obliged to enforce the committee's will on this group of dissidents? And if the majority of the population decided that they had no confidence in a particular course of action by the committee then should the military support the lawful government or should they support the the majority? What if this committee became fractured and each was putting forward a course of action which needed military support?

The only "improvements" I see in what you have written are on a philosophical level. While it would be nice to have a government of the people, for the people and by the people all I see is you replacing one controller with another (or perhaps an elected controlling body). While it may be nice live in this philosophically correct society, I think the crew of Destiny would prefer one which would give them the best chance to survive and hopefully get home. What they have may not be the best, however, I do not see an increase in those chances with what you have suggested.

regards,
G.

RedshirtTechnician
April 10th, 2010, 11:22 PM
Here's my take on the military v.s. civilian conflict:

Earlier in the season, when we didn't have the aliens to worry about, the crew's problems were more scientific, and there was still a chance of getting home, the civilians had a much better case than they do now. Up until "Justice" the only hints of a military threat came from the alien ship detaching from the hull at the end of "Air" and the alien creatures in "Time". Now the crew faces a clear threat from the blue aliens with the reverse-articulated legs. If our heroes (and antiheroes) are going to survive, the military has to have a mostly free hand in dictating strategy. Simply put, they are needed more now than they were before. There are also two other major problems with the civilians being in charge. The first is that, in staging this coup, they escalated things in a big way, and therefore should probably be trusted less for it. Second, due to his rank, Colonel Young is the clear leader of the military personnel, and if the military retains control, the crew, but the civilians have no clear leader. They have both Rush and Wray, with Wray probably having a slight advantage in the court of crew opinion. Lack of a clear leader would make the ship much harder for the civilians to govern the ship effectively, never mind the inefficient nature of a bureaucracy.

Gollumpus
April 10th, 2010, 11:28 PM
You conveniently forget a few facts; remember running them ragged that one of them threw up? You might want to rewatch, this time with a more critical eye as to why the civilians might be unhappy to be under military rule. I think you'd agree, that if you were forced to do a lot of things you didn't like, were roughed up occasionally, and constantly had some guy with a gun lording his power over you... you might be a bit put out, too.

For the record, my solution is a 3 person council, elected by crew. For most situations, this council is responsible for making the important decisions. In an emergency, the military can take direct control, such as when they are under attack.

The civilians were put into an exercise program. Okay, Young forced them to exercise. One of them vomited. Yes, they would not like to be forced to do something which was not a regular activity for them, an activity which would likely be of benefit to them on a physical as well as a mental level. What an evil S.o.B is Young! How could I have been so blind!! :P

In your litany of the evils of the military on SGU you didn't mention that Franklin was shot. I'm assuming it was deliberately omitted (what with that critical of yours) as you consider it to have been an okay use of military power against a civilian.

I point out that the only time where a military person was roughing up a civilian (outside of the line of duty, or Young's altercation with Rush) is when Spencer ran into poor ol' Franklin. He's becoming the Siler of SGU. At that time, Young stepped in and stopped the altercation. In any other circumstance force was used to quell a population which was out of control, and in one of those instances it was a military guy (Spencer) who was on the receiving end of the "abuse".

And that, you are saying, is what all the fuss is about. I suppose that the counter is this: do you like anarchy? You claim not to like dictatorship but the only other option which was available until recently was anarchy. In the circumstance where they had a lottery, what would you suggest would happen when the majority who were going to be left on Destiny decided they did not want to abide by the results? And how would things be any different with a committee running things? Gee, do you think there might be some roughing up of civilians by the military, which would be okay by you since the military would be roughing up civilians under orders from a civilian committee.

Your committee suggestion is flawed and requires some kind of fictional world where the people on Destiny would always abide by the rulings of this elected body regardless of their own desires. (I've already asked questions as to the mechanics of this body earlier.) And what happens if some of the population revolt? As noted, the military would go stomp on them but it would be okay because they would have the blessing of the committee. I'm sure the guys getting roughed up would feel so much less oppressed getting the jackboots from a democratically elected body.

regards,
G.

harakiri
April 11th, 2010, 01:22 AM
You are comparing nations to small military units. The analogy doesn’t hold. It is apples to oranges. The closest approximation to Destiny’s situation would be a ship lost in the middle of the ocean out of contact with its command. Since that isn't possible now, it would have to be a ship of several hundred years ago before radio.

I don’t agree that Young is a dictatorship. He is the ranking military officer and has legitimate command. I think it was a big mistake to lie about marooning Rush. However I think it was within his purview as commander to openly do so. Rush tried to frame him and remove him from command. On the open sea if someone from the crew tried something similar the captain was well within his right to deliver capital punishment to maintain discipline.

I get the feeling you are hung up on the military label. Just because they are in the military doesn’t mean they are evil or corrupt leaders. O’Neil and Hammond were military and excellent leaders. Kinsey was a civilian and was very corrupt and cowardly. It all depends who is doing the leading. I think Wray would make a far worse leader than Young. She has already demonstrated that she is far more self serving and has no real combat experience. Young definitely has his problems but who would be better is hard to say. All of SGU’s characters are flawed.

My choice to take over command would be TJ. In Water she demonstrated that she would make a very effective leader. Imo of all the crew she would make the best choice.

I do agree with you here. The only leader that could lead both sides of this "war" could be TJ,but the civilians would probably see her as a military and that she`s not good enough.

And Gollumpus wrote : "And frankly, I'm a bit ticked off at the civilian/scientist contingent. All they have done (for the most part) is whine about not being able to go home not being able to eat all of the food in the first few days of being on Destiny. What have they been prevented from doing since their arrival? They seem to have free run of the ship (at least the parts which have been checked and secured by the military) and as long as they don't run any experiments which impact on what Rush is doing they are left alone."

I totally agree with this. What is it that they want? Is there something I miss here? As far as I have seen its only the fight between Young and Rush that is used as a problem with the military. I have seen every episode more than once and I cant see the military like a unit have done anything wrong against the others. In "Light" Spencer did claim that the shuttle could take more people,but it could not. Young did a very wise choice when he did choose TJ as they would need a medic,and the other choice had to be Scott if they was even gonna go anywhere. Actually the only violence I remember before the Young and Rush incident is when Greer did put Spencer out when he tried to make people think they had a chance to all be on that shuttle. If am not mistaken Spencer was military,so that also was`nt an act towards civilians.

As I see it,the civilians are creating a problem here that seem miss placed. They should almost "hate" Rush for getting them there,and then they embrace him and Wray like if they were heroes that came to rescue them. And the only thing civilians now have done is to make their own situation worse,and that`s all their fault. The military did not create this problem,Wray did.

What Young should do now (IMHO) is to have a speech telling them all about what did happen on that planet with Rush,and tell him straight out how he feels about it. Then he should also show the movie to the people,and state that he should`nt have left Rush there even what he had done to him. This might buy him some trust among the people,and then he can continue with what he also did on that alien ship,freeing Rush and even tried to go back to the ship and maybe look for Chloe together.
The comment "We`ll never be done" should be a major factor in his speech about the situation on the planet. The very big difference between Young and Rush is that Young regrets thing,and Rush has a very hard time regretting anything. Young has changed a lot since the start,I`ll bet we`ll see Rush do the same,and I sure it is for the better (how can it be worse?),but I cant see him become all "good" .

Before I forget,was`nt there also an "violence"-kinda situation there before Justice the Rush going crazy incident in the hall at a person (I don`t remember the name of)? And we also have the Spencer doing something like that,and Young had to use some force towards him,but then again...he`s not an civilian.

In the end,the only leader for ALL the people there,like a link between military and civilians might be TJ. She is more like a civilian than military in my mind. A little bit of both cant hurt?

EllieVee
April 11th, 2010, 01:40 AM
I'm just going to snip everything bar the paragraph I want to reply to for space purposes.


The military ran Icarus base. The move from Icarus to Destiny does not mean that all bets are off as to how things are done. Young would see the situation as being nothing more than a change of venue for his command. Why would he feel obligated to consult with Wray on any issue beyond her supposed expertise in HR related issues? In pretty much any kind of emergency, Young would consult the science types in regard to what sort of issues may arise with Destiny (power, life support, shields, weapons). What would Wray be able to contribute to the discussion?

My view is that the military who ran the base were very different to the actual expedition people, of whom Rush was one and Telford another. All Young did was run the base in support of the expedition and quest to solve the ninth chevron. This doesn't automatically place him in charge of the civilians even if O'Neill says so because O'Neill would have no authority to put anyone in charge unless the IOA agreed to it.

Commander Zelix
April 11th, 2010, 02:10 AM
Here's my take on the military v.s. civilian conflict:

Earlier in the season, when we didn't have the aliens to worry about, the crew's problems were more scientific, and there was still a chance of getting home, the civilians had a much better case than they do now. Up until "Justice" the only hints of a military threat came from the alien ship detaching from the hull at the end of "Air" and the alien creatures in "Time". Now the crew faces a clear threat from the blue aliens with the reverse-articulated legs. If our heroes (and antiheroes) are going to survive, the military has to have a mostly free hand in dictating strategy. Simply put, they are needed more now than they were before. There are also two other major problems with the civilians being in charge. The first is that, in staging this coup, they escalated things in a big way, and therefore should probably be trusted less for it. Second, due to his rank, Colonel Young is the clear leader of the military personnel, and if the military retains control, the crew, but the civilians have no clear leader. They have both Rush and Wray, with Wray probably having a slight advantage in the court of crew opinion. Lack of a clear leader would make the ship much harder for the civilians to govern the ship effectively, never mind the inefficient nature of a bureaucracy.
And most importantly, the military already works under the civilian authority back on earth. Both Wray and Young report there regularly using the stones.

harakiri
April 11th, 2010, 03:34 AM
I'm just going to snip everything bar the paragraph I want to reply to for space purposes.



My view is that the military who ran the base were very different to the actual expedition people, of whom Rush was one and Telford another. All Young did was run the base in support of the expedition and quest to solve the ninth chevron. This doesn't automatically place him in charge of the civilians even if O'Neill says so because O'Neill would have no authority to put anyone in charge unless the IOA agreed to it.

Is there something I miss here? I have not seen that IOA HAD to agree to everything. So far IOA have been more a pain in the a** than doing much good. I had the feeling that most of the times general Hammond took orders from the President when it was a BIG thing going on. By all means, I can be wrong here,yeah even very,totaly and completely wrong..

Lets say O'Neill reports whats happened to the president (which I guess he would) , I would think he`d take O'Neill`s advice to who should be the leader on the ship and think that GENERAL O'Neill would know better than some people working behind desks at the IOA. Just my thoughts anyway. But still,mostly this was a question about who the president listen to the most ,military (generals) or the IOA? Would guess it could be around 50/50 at least.. And when it comes to O'Neill,is there anyone else that knows more about these kinda missions than him? But this is not by far a situation Jack has been in,but he should be the first one a president ask for advice.

wolverine_nl
April 11th, 2010, 03:36 AM
Great episode, never was bored, good pace.
I am on a 50% - 50%, i feel that the civilians have the right to lead with support of the military, but on the other hand the civilians showed not able to run things in balance, the civilians have hidden agenda's (powerhungry) or like Rush, wanting to get onto Destiny

EllieVee
April 11th, 2010, 04:27 AM
Is there something I miss here? I have not seen that IOA HAD to agree to everything. So far IOA have been more a pain in the a** than doing much good. I had the feeling that most of the times general Hammond took orders from the President when it was a BIG thing going on. By all means, I can be wrong here,yeah even very,totaly and completely wrong..

When the stargate was just a US program, yes.


Lets say O'Neill reports whats happened to the president (which I guess he would) , I would think he`d take O'Neill`s advice to who should be the leader on the ship and think that GENERAL O'Neill would know better than some people working behind desks at the IOA. Just my thoughts anyway. But still,mostly this was a question about who the president listen to the most ,military (generals) or the IOA? Would guess it could be around 50/50 at least.. And when it comes to O'Neill,is there anyone else that knows more about these kinda missions than him? But this is not by far a situation Jack has been in,but he should be the first one a president ask for advice.

But the President is not in charge of the IOA.

theta123
April 11th, 2010, 06:15 AM
I liked this episode.

And when those 3 alien ships came, i was just hoping to see all those Cannon's back into action but appearntly not :(. That was the only letdown of this episode's.


Cant wait for next episode

Phenom
April 11th, 2010, 06:27 AM
I guess with the Military personnel, generally what you see is what you get. People don't join the military for the money or the power. If you wanted that you would join the private sector. That is why having the military in charge is a safer bet than the unknown civillians. Wray is a snake in the grass, as is Rush (but I still love him), Eli is like a puppy who loves his owner Young unconditionally and although Young isn't perfect, at least he doesn't have any alterior motives besides the safety and wellbeing of the crew.

Jper
April 11th, 2010, 06:39 AM
Eli is like a puppy who loves his owner Young unconditionally

Which is really really starting to annoy me. Eli needs to grow a pair and tell Young to shove it. I bet no one else knows that Eli is spying on them for Young. If they did I don't think they'd be as kind towards him as they are no. No I don't understand Eli on this point and I think it's very likely that the Young-Eli alliance won't last. We saw the first crack in Space, where Eli, yelled at Young, that he shouldn't have left Rush on the planet then. :)

Blackhole
April 11th, 2010, 06:42 AM
I do agree with you here. The only leader that could lead both sides of this "war" could be TJ,but the civilians would probably see her as a military and that she`s not good enough.

And Gollumpus wrote : "And frankly, I'm a bit ticked off at the civilian/scientist contingent. All they have done (for the most part) is whine about not being able to go home not being able to eat all of the food in the first few days of being on Destiny. What have they been prevented from doing since their arrival? They seem to have free run of the ship (at least the parts which have been checked and secured by the military) and as long as they don't run any experiments which impact on what Rush is doing they are left alone."

I totally agree with this. What is it that they want? Is there something I miss here? As far as I have seen its only the fight between Young and Rush that is used as a problem with the military. I have seen every episode more than once and I cant see the military like a unit have done anything wrong against the others. In "Light" Spencer did claim that the shuttle could take more people,but it could not. Young did a very wise choice when he did choose TJ as they would need a medic,and the other choice had to be Scott if they was even gonna go anywhere. Actually the only violence I remember before the Young and Rush incident is when Greer did put Spencer out when he tried to make people think they had a chance to all be on that shuttle. If am not mistaken Spencer was military,so that also was`nt an act towards civilians.

As I see it,the civilians are creating a problem here that seem miss placed. They should almost "hate" Rush for getting them there,and then they embrace him and Wray like if they were heroes that came to rescue them. And the only thing civilians now have done is to make their own situation worse,and that`s all their fault. The military did not create this problem,Wray did.

What Young should do now (IMHO) is to have a speech telling them all about what did happen on that planet with Rush,and tell him straight out how he feels about it. Then he should also show the movie to the people,and state that he should`nt have left Rush there even what he had done to him. This might buy him some trust among the people,and then he can continue with what he also did on that alien ship,freeing Rush and even tried to go back to the ship and maybe look for Chloe together.
The comment "We`ll never be done" should be a major factor in his speech about the situation on the planet. The very big difference between Young and Rush is that Young regrets thing,and Rush has a very hard time regretting anything. Young has changed a lot since the start,I`ll bet we`ll see Rush do the same,and I sure it is for the better (how can it be worse?),but I cant see him become all "good" .

Before I forget,was`nt there also an "violence"-kinda situation there before Justice the Rush going crazy incident in the hall at a person (I don`t remember the name of)? And we also have the Spencer doing something like that,and Young had to use some force towards him,but then again...he`s not an civilian.

In the end,the only leader for ALL the people there,like a link between military and civilians might be TJ. She is more like a civilian than military in my mind. A little bit of both cant hurt?

First off I want to say that I think the conflict and tension between the civilian and military contingent has been artificially ramped up by the writers for dramatic purposes. The whole coup d'état scenario was imo very unrealistic and premature.

That being said, harakiri’s suggestion to come clean to everyone about what happened on the planet is a good one. Young should explain why Rush was a destabilizing and self-serving influence. He confronted him and Rush made it clear in no uncertain terms he was going to continue to do his best to undermine Young’s command. Young then made a command decision to leave him. All this is true but unfortunately Young acted out of anger and should never have marooned him. His action was a big mistake. If he had brought him back and exposed his and Wray’s (likely) framing attempt he would have had the moral justification to impose harsh punishment to both of them. Unfortunately as it stands now he looks deceitful and dangerous.

Given the civilians were willing to stage a coup the only way Young is going to continue to govern is through excessive force from the military. I don’t think it is practical or advised to use force on a spaceship to control a much larger group of technically skilled individuals; they are going to feel threatened and repressed. The potential for catastrophic sabotage from any of them is far too great. Young was willing to step down when he was accused of murder to prevent exactly this type of scenario from happening. I think he should go to Earth offer to step down and allow them to promote Scott or TJ to command. I believe Scott is the next in line but imo TJ would make a better leader.

Trying to establish a committee based civilian leadership like what Kaiphantom and others have maintained sounds nice on paper but imo isn’t practical or effective. As Gollumpus has astutely shown, a single commander needs to be designated; someone the military contingent will support. A civilian leader skilled enough like Weir could take over; but so far none are present that are qualified.