Rather large Inconsistency with SGU with regards to SG1 and SGA

[Jcam90502]

Being a physicist with a healthy "Willing Suspension of Disbelief", especially with the rather excellent writing that I have come to expect from the entire Stargate Franchise, I find a rather large inconsistency with SGU with regards to SG1 and SGA.

From the original movie and underlined in more detail with SG1 and SGA, one of the more noted principles outlined about how the Stargates work when making connections are that they can only make wormhole connections over interstellar distances. Along with this constraint the rules concerning connections between gates that are relatively close to one another (such as within the same solar system or on the same planet) cannot be made because of their proximity, because of their relatively close point of origin.

Why is it then that in SGU, the stargaze on the ship can seemingly only make connections to planets only after the ship has dropped out of FTL within the solar system that the planet resides. For example, in the episode called "Water", why is it the ship had to travel to the solar system where the Water was located before it could make a wormhole connection to the Stargate on that planet?

I have watched each episode for the first half of the first season at least twice, in in most cases three times, but I have not heard any dialog which might explain this apparent contradiction from previous SG franchise episodes. While it is true that the character Dr. Nicholas Rush has stated that the "Ship simply does not have the power to dial Earth" may indicate that hay can only make relatively short connections, it does not explain how they are able to dial the gate on a planet in the same solar system which has been clearly declared as "Simply not Possible" (Dr. Rodney McKay, Episode 417 - Midway).

Am I missing some information?
JCam

[Naonak]

They've never said that they're in the same system as the planets they're gating to, just that they're "in range".

[Crazy Tom]

I think the only star systems we've seen the Destiny actually visit are the ones it uses to replenish it's power supplies. Other times, it just floats along in interstellar space.

[Whatsername]

Maybe the writers are getting lazy >.< but yeah quite odd indeed
i thought in FTL they couldn't because well there in FTL going extremely fast,
but yeah
they should of just pulled over where they where and connected the ship did have to go that far,
But they could of needed a twist in the story, for the time limit they could be on that planet or something......

[Jcam90502]

Yes, I understand that while in FTL they can't make a connection, but indicating that they are "in range" is counter to the whole point. Example as in SG1 and SGA if you are "within range" you should not be able to make a connection, but you must be outside of range to make a connection. Sure you could argue that when they say "within range" it means they have the power to make the connection. In SG1 Samantha Carter says "there is no appreciable difference in power consumption when making longer connections than shorter ones", but the Earth gate in the SGC uses more power than other gates because they do not use a DHD. Larger amounts of power are necessary when using 8 or 9 chevrons instead of the normal 7.

If one implies that they do not need to be in the system to gate to a world where the ship knows what resource they need, between episode 105 - Light, and episode 106 - Water, why did the ship have to leave the "Light" system and go to the "Water" system when it could have gated to the Water planet from the "Light" system?

[thekillman]

there are various explanations for the lack of range.

1: these are one-off gates. "disposable" gates. their quality might be much less than we always had.

2: lack of DHD might mean lack of correlative updates. see: 2001, Tornment of Tantalus. (and Children of the Gods)

3: lack of power might reduce the range. but we don't really know.

4: subspace communication hadn't sufficiently advanced to incorporate them into gates. big ships, yes. small gates, no. considering that the gate also contains part-DHD, it would be surprising if they found the room for the long-range subspace link. so, the Destiny only knows if gates are present if they're close enough.

If one implies that they do not need to be in the system to gate to a world where the ship knows what resource they need, between episode 105 - Light, and episode 106 - Water, why did the ship have to leave the "Light" system and go to the "Water" system when it could have gated to the Water planet from the "Light" system?

because of the range issue. besides, we don't know what galaxy they're in. if they're in a massive galaxy like ours, the gate spread (distance between gates) might be so extreme, that the destiny had to go further

[Sqrl]

It seems possible that since they've indicated SGU gates are incapable of getting a lock on a gate outside of its local group of stars that it may in turn be capable of getting a lock on gates that are closer than normal as well.

Just a thought.

[Ukko]

I could simply be that they are prototype gates and dont work exactly the same as ours.

[Naonak]

Yes, I understand that while in FTL they can't make a connection, but indicating that they are "in range" is counter to the whole point. Example as in SG1 and SGA if you are "within range" you should not be able to make a connection, but you must be outside of range to make a connection.

Think you misunderstood me. They're not "in range" as in they're in the same area of space as the PoO. They're just "in range" as in the Destiny can only dial so far, for whatever reason, rather than being able to cover the entire galaxy. There's no clash of PoO.
As killman mentioned, they're a different model of gate, and there's no DHD, which could explain why this is.

[Quadhelix]

Sure you could argue that when they say "within range" it means they have the power to make the connection. In SG1 Samantha Carter says "there is no appreciable difference in power consumption when making longer connections than shorter ones", but the Earth gate in the SGC uses more power than other gates because they do not use a DHD. Larger amounts of power are necessary when using 8 or 9 chevrons instead of the normal 7.

It could be that Destiny-style Stargates have difficulty "targeting" other Stargates beyond a certain distance - somewhat like the earlier effects of stellar drift, but inherent in the design rather than the result of a programing error. That would, of course, raise the question of how the Destiny's Stargate could dial Earth.


Alternatively, the difference in power usage between 7, 8, and 9 chevron addresses arises out of the different protocols used to pinpoint the destination: the further you go, the more precision you need in order to establish/maintain a connection. Seven-chevron dials all use the same amount of power because they all use the same targeting protocol; eight-chevron dials require more power because they require a more precise (and thus computationally extensive) targeting protocol.

In this case, we can speculate that the Destiny uses older targeting protocols that are not as efficient, forcing it to trade precision (and thus range) for a more computable targeting algorithm.

If one implies that they do not need to be in the system to gate to a world where the ship knows what resource they need, between episode 105 - Light, and episode 106 - Water, why did the ship have to leave the "Light" system and go to the "Water" system when it could have gated to the Water planet from the "Light" system?

We have no idea where the "Water" planet is in relation to the system from "Darkness"/"Light." Moreover, we have no idea where the Destiny was in "Water," relative to that planet. Thus, you cannot say that the Destiny had to go to that system because we have no reason to believe that it ever did.

We do know, however, that the Destiny's Stargate has a maximum range. This range is certainly large enough to encompass multiple star systems (in "Air," there were roughly half-a-dozen Stargates in range). It is quite likely that the planet in "Water" was outside that range during the events of "Light."


Let us imagine, for example, that the Destiny's Stargate can dial only planets that are within about 100 light-years. This means that, if the planet in "Water" were 200 light-years from the system in "Darkness"/"Light," the Destiny could not dial one from the other.

[Aer'ki]

If the Destiny gate has trouble 'targeting' gates within a single galaxy...how then can it dial another galaxy, say, like ours, to return the crew to Earth? If it can't find something a few light years away, forget about ever returning home.

[Sqrl]

If the Destiny gate has trouble 'targeting' gates within a single galaxy...how then can it dial another galaxy, say, like ours, to return the crew to Earth? If it can't find something a few light years away, forget about ever returning home.

Are we sure targeting was the real issue? It could have just simply been that they didn't yet have a power source they could leave with each gate to allow it to continue operating for millions of years and allow it to gate across the galaxy on a regular basis. Or maybe they just hadn't yet figured out a way to reduce the cost of long distance dialing, so they had the power source but the gate wasn't efficient enough yet.

As far as I know, the targeting is designed to target gates that are close, but we don't know if that design was a result of some other limitation or if they hadn't figured out how to safely do better than that. Given that they already had 9-chevron long-distance inter-galactic addresses in mind it seems likely that targeting wasn't the real issue honestly.

[Quadhelix]

If the Destiny gate has trouble 'targeting' gates within a single galaxy...how then can it dial another galaxy, say, like ours, to return the crew to Earth? If it can't find something a few light years away, forget about ever returning home.

That was why I suggested that there were different targeting protocols, with the more precise protocols trading power consumption (due to the need for more processing power, for example) for their precision.

To dial back to Earth, the Destiny would use a very precise (errors smaller than 1 in a billion) targeting protocol that would use a vast amount of computing power, and would thus be very energy hungry. To dial a local Stargate, it could use a much more approximate protocol (with errors up to, perhaps, 1 in 1000) that would not require anywhere near as much processing power.


Under this interpretation, the reason that Milky Way Stargates can dial any other 'Gate in the same galaxy is because they use a more efficient system of targeting protocols.

Are we sure targeting was the real issue? It could have just simply been that they didn't yet have a power source they could leave with each gate to allow it to continue operating for millions of years and allow it to gate across the galaxy on a regular basis. Or maybe they just hadn't yet figured out a way to reduce the cost of long distance dialing, so they had the power source but the gate wasn't efficient enough yet.

This sounds like a good explanation.

[Mike.]

The SGU gates don't have a DHD so no correlative updates - the gates don't talk to each other to relay the location of others. That means the gates can't make a precise connection i.e. send an efficient directed signal. Instead they have to broadcast in all directions which is very power consuming. The destiny and the other SGU gates can only make connections which are in the range of their broadcast beacons.

The 9 chevron addresses are slightly different because instead of giving up it keeps broadcasting with increasing energy (needing astronomical levels of power, like a whole naquadah planet) until eventually it gets a hit. That initiating signal crossed the vast distance (through some layer of subspace) from the MW to the Destiny in *all* directions to be able to find it. Imagine an ever expanding sphere. This makes sense - Destiny's is a moving gate so it will never have a precise stationary position.
If all gates had a 9 chevron address hardcoded I guess Destiny could reach all of them if the power was available. But seeing as the Ancient database only mentioned Destiny we can assume that it's the only one that can be reached like this. The crew will need to replicate this on some level to get home.

[Sqrl]

The SGU gates don't have a DHD so no correlative updates - the gates don't talk to each other to relay the location of others. That means the gates can't make a precise connection i.e. send an efficient directed signal. Instead they have to broadcast in all directions which is very power consuming. The destiny and the other SGU gates can only make connections which are in the range of their broadcast beacons.

The 9 chevron addresses are slightly different because instead of giving up it keeps broadcasting with increasing energy (needing astronomical levels of power, like a whole naquadah planet) until eventually it gets a hit. That initiating signal crossed the vast distance (through some layer of subspace) from the MW to the Destiny in *all* directions to be able to find it. Imagine an ever expanding sphere. This makes sense - Destiny's is a moving gate so it will never have a precise stationary position.
If all gates had a 9 chevron address hardcoded I guess Destiny could reach all of them if the power was available. But seeing as the Ancient database only mentioned Destiny we can assume that it's the only one that can be reached like this. The crew will need to replicate this on some level to get home.

Interesting, so your theory is sort of that the DHDs were added later to add the additional efficiency? It sort of makes an odd sense because they wouldn't have added the DHDs until they thought there was a good chance the things would last a long long while. And if the act of adding a DHD solved the efficiency problem then it would have certainly been a great "two birds /w one stone" solution.

I'm not 100% sold that this is how it went down, but it sounds as good as any other theory I've heard.