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GateWorld
April 26th, 2004, 02:58 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s1/111.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/graphics/111.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#666666">DISCUSS ...</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4 COLOR="#006699"><B>BLOODLINES</B></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 111</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/graphics/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
Teal'c returns to Chulak to stop his people from implanting his son with a larval Goa'uld, but must sacrifice himself to save him.

<B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s1/111.shtml">Visit the Episode Guide >></A></B></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

KorbenDirewolf
June 11th, 2004, 12:35 PM
Ah.. finally a little of Teal'c's backstory...

SeaBee
June 19th, 2004, 07:50 AM
Ah.. finally a little of Teal'c's backstory...
Yes, nice to see what happened to Teal'c's family after he switched sides.

Elwe Singollo
June 21st, 2004, 12:17 PM
Is this the episode where Teal'c wife had a new husband, but ended up betraying them?

Crazedwraith
June 21st, 2004, 02:00 PM
Is this the episode where Teal'c wife had a new husband, but ended up betraying them?
No thats a seaosn 2 ep "famillies" this is the one where he tries to stop ryac having snake implanted.

Elwe Singollo
June 21st, 2004, 02:34 PM
Gosh, so long ago i have seen these old episodes :( Well thanks crazed :)

Selmak
July 10th, 2004, 07:52 PM
Another great episode to make Teal'c more "human".

KorbenDirewolf
July 11th, 2004, 12:26 PM
Although with that snake in his gut, he never quite makes it.

Mio
July 11th, 2004, 07:44 PM
Wow. I haven't seen Bloodlines in like...over a year...i need to break out the dvd set.

aAnubiSs
July 11th, 2004, 08:57 PM
I saw it.. 3 days ago.. Still as crappy as I remembered.

Vyse
July 11th, 2004, 09:04 PM
Wow, that episode brings back memories, I saw that way back when I was still in intermediate School, lol!

Selmak
July 15th, 2004, 05:06 PM
I forgot... Did ry'ac get the goa'uld or not?

Bagpuss
July 19th, 2004, 04:05 AM
Spoilers for "Bloodlines"...just in case anyone's not seen the full episode.
*(Better safe than sorry,IMO.)
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Rya'c ended up with Teal'c's symbiote,while Teal'c was implanted with a different one (Courtesy of Sam and Daniel who'd procured one from a temple).
Got a bit confusing really for me,as the mission had been to obtain a live Goa'uld,but instead it seemed to end up as a game of "Musical Symbiotes",through necessity !
Excellent drama though,and I still enjoy the episode ,as I adore Teal'c ! :)

Selmak
July 19th, 2004, 09:13 PM
Thanks for the explanation

SeaBee
July 20th, 2004, 03:14 PM
I loved the bit where Daniel tries to feed the snake a biscuit! LOL

KorbenDirewolf
July 20th, 2004, 11:53 PM
erm.. Must've missed that bit. Don't recall any biscuits.

Bagpuss
July 21st, 2004, 04:34 PM
I remember Daniel saying something like ,"Do you think these things need to eat?", and waving something he'd been chewing, at the flask they were using to carry the captured larva .
Maybe it was a biscuit or maybe an MRE bar ? :S
IMO,he wasn't trying to give it something,he was just asking Sam and waving the food for emphasis !

For me, the "Food Funny" moment came, when Sam lobbed a hand grenade at the Jaffa warriors,...and Daniel chucked the bar (?) away in their direction before drawing his gun ! :)

Selmak
July 26th, 2004, 05:45 PM
Like that Chicken/Mac and Cheese MRE comment.

Replicarter
September 4th, 2004, 02:44 PM
I hate this episode, because tealc cares about his family, they just get in the way of the show.

KorbenDirewolf
September 8th, 2004, 07:39 PM
Yeah.. Totally unrealistic. No one cares about their family. ;)

SeaBee
September 17th, 2004, 12:38 PM
I hate this episode, because tealc cares about his family, they just get in the way of the show.

Sorry, but I can't agree with this post. Without some emotional stuff and family interaction, Teal'c would look like just another 2 dimensional sci-fi alien. His character needs his family, and it shows just how his actions affect those around him.

Lord Zedd
September 19th, 2004, 06:57 AM
I found it a good episode,but not the best one of season 1

Spiderman
September 19th, 2004, 08:43 AM
Sorry, but I can't agree with this post. Without some emotional stuff and family interaction, Teal'c would look like just another 2 dimensional sci-fi alien. His character needs his family, and it shows just how his actions affect those around him.
Howdo they get in the way?You don't get to see them much often.Dreyoc is dead and Ryac is with Bra'tac

SeaBee
September 19th, 2004, 09:02 AM
Howdo they get in the way?You don't get to see them much often.Dreyoc is dead and Ryac is with Bra'tac
I think you meant to quote RepliCarters post, not mine. :)
I know they don't appear very often, but when they do they help to show that under his controlled exterior, Teal'c is driven by the same desires, fears and convictions that drive us all.

zats
September 19th, 2004, 08:04 PM
This ep is one of my favorites from Season I. Background dirt is always wonderful, and I loved it when we met Drey'auc and Ry'ac. I love Drey'auc; I always feel so sorry for her, she's so bitter and so hard because of how she's had to live. I think she's one of those people that could have absolutely florished if she'd had the chance. Poor woman.

I loved the bits with Daniel and Sam, from the "haven't been to church in a long time" until they met back up with everyone else at the critical Last Moment. I think it was a chocolate bar that Danny was thinking about feeding the snake, but kindly don't hold me to it.

Changing the subject ever so slightly, I want a shirt with the symbol of the shol'va on it. And earrings. Belly button ring, anyone?

WraithWarrior
November 15th, 2004, 03:41 AM
Good episode that showed Teal'c finally telling someone about his family. Must have been hard to leave his family behind. Good how Teal'c would give his life to save his sons, what every dad would do I'm guessing. It was also funny how Daniel shot the Gou'ald larvae when they were outside the chapel of Apophis.

SmartFox
February 23rd, 2005, 06:13 PM
Good ep get to see his family and that he is human too. I hope you were joking replicarter about its bad cause Teal'c cares about his family. Do you want him to be a robot like in Wormhole xtreme?

Evil Emperor Zurg
March 9th, 2005, 12:24 PM
Is it me or has no one mentioned the best thing about this episode our first apperance of Bra'tac :D one of the best recurring characters on the show. I love it when O'Neill goes "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it" and Bra'tac says "no the bridge is too heavily guarded" :D

PugGate
March 9th, 2005, 07:12 PM
I like the fight scene between Jack and Bra'tac

SmartFox
March 9th, 2005, 10:12 PM
Is it me or has no one mentioned the best thing about this episode our first apperance of Bra'tac :D one of the best recurring characters on the show. I love it when O'Neill goes "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it" and Bra'tac says "no the bridge is too heavily guarded" :D


Brat'ac is awesome. He is one of my favorite charachters.
Brat'ac-"Not bad for a hundred year old man" :D Hope im in as good of shape as Bra'tac when im 103. :p

zats
March 13th, 2005, 09:34 AM
Brat'ac is awesome. He is one of my favorite charachters.
Brat'ac-"Not bad for a hundred year old man" :D Hope im in as good of shape as Bra'tac when im 103. :p

I can't believe that Bra'tac's still around--there aren't a lot of guest/recurring characters that have made it that long w/out being offed by TPTB. :)

Petroit
June 25th, 2005, 06:09 AM
In this episode was my favourite message...this:
Jack: Well,we´ll just have to cross that bridge when we come to it.
I know,Iknow...Bra´tac way sad it in 201... :-))

Sum1
June 25th, 2005, 08:42 AM
I can't believe that Bra'tac's still around--there aren't a lot of guest/recurring characters that have made it that long w/out being offed by TPTB. :)

Gary Jones is still around and has been from CoTG. He was even on Atlantis.

jckfan55
June 25th, 2005, 10:49 AM
Not my favorite episode overall, but some great moments. As mentioned:


[QUOTE=F.H. Bagpuss] I remember Daniel saying something like ,"Do you think these things need to eat?", and waving something he'd been chewing, at the flask they were using to carry the captured larva .
Maybe it was a biscuit or maybe an MRE bar ?
IMO,he wasn't trying to give it something,he was just asking Sam and waving the food for emphasis !

For me, the "Food Funny" moment came, when Sam lobbed a hand grenade at the Jaffa warriors,...and Daniel chucked the bar (?) away in their direction before drawing his gun !
I wonder if it was the first time his "power bars?" were featured. I loved the way he looked at it first like "well, this isn't going to help."


[QUOTE=zats] I loved the bits with Daniel and Sam, from the "haven't been to church in a long time"
I also loved Sam throwing the hand grenade and Daniel saying something like "Well that was insane." And we get our first introduction to Bratac.

zats
June 29th, 2005, 04:10 PM
Bra'tac is da bomb!

He hasn't changed much, has he in 8 years, has he? Should be interesting to see how his character progresses in S9, what with the Newly Freed Jaffa and all.

JoshuaJSlone
August 21st, 2005, 11:05 AM
I can't believe that Bra'tac's still around--there aren't a lot of guest/recurring characters that have made it that long w/out being offed by TPTB. :)
Bra'tac's ability to unexpectedly turn up again is even greater than that of Apophis!

.:Lemon:.
August 24th, 2005, 07:21 AM
Not a fave episode of mine, but it's not all bad as the ever wonderful Bra'tac is introduced :p Quite nice to see some background on Teal'c aswell.

.:Lemon:.
August 24th, 2005, 07:23 AM
Bra'tac's ability to unexpectedly turn up again is even greater than that of Apophis!

Haha! Indeed it is :p

Stricken
September 8th, 2005, 01:48 AM
Good episode well written and it introduced BRA'TAC!!! YAY

TheObiJuan
September 8th, 2005, 02:10 AM
Good episode well written and it introduced BRA'TAC!!! YAY

Good Lord, are you hitting every episode sticky? :p

walter_MacChevron
September 12th, 2005, 09:43 PM
:D Yay! go Bra'tac! he doesn't even look any younger than he does now LOL

Metarock Sam
September 23rd, 2005, 08:07 AM
This ep qwas great because it introduced Bratac (whose classic moves are the best.)

captain jake
May 5th, 2006, 07:15 PM
O'neill realy surprised me with those moves he pulled out on bra'tac. I didnt see that coming at all very impressive. This was a great oppurtunity for teal'c to show his team what he left behind to come to earth.

Pharaoh Atem
May 23rd, 2006, 08:33 PM
good teal'c back story epsiode

captain jake
May 25th, 2006, 03:12 AM
Ya for sure, what do you think of daniel shooting the tank.

Chelle DB
June 3rd, 2006, 03:05 AM
Loved the story - love Teal'c so it kinda goes with the territory. Liked the scene when Daniel shot the tank - nicely done but a what cost? Favorite part was when Sam had to fish out one of the goa'uld larvae thingys....on the count of three....count of four??

captain jake
June 18th, 2006, 09:47 PM
What do you mean "but at what cost"?

Sheppard
July 19th, 2006, 09:23 PM
bratac was cool in this episode the way he kicked oniells ass

captain jake
July 21st, 2006, 05:20 PM
bratac was cool in this episode the way he kicked oniells ass

I don't know I have a theory that jack let him win...... ok so he probably did get wooped. To tell you the truth when I saw this episode for the first time I HATED bra'tac. Now I have grown to know him and have a soft spot for the old guy. Except in the recent episode flesh and blood I have to say that he seems to be going a little nuts.

Jump237
September 5th, 2006, 04:06 PM
the expression on teal'c's face when bra'tac implants that young symbiote in him was hilarious. between the eye makeup, nose job and smooth golden skin, it looks like he's being violated in a most uncomfortable place(and i'm not talking about the backseat of a volkswagen).

jz9
September 6th, 2006, 04:04 PM
[QUOTE=Favorite part was when Sam had to fish out one of the goa'uld larvae thingys....on the count of three....count of four??[/QUOTE]

Watched this ep. last night. My favorite scene too.

TattertotLove
September 6th, 2006, 08:27 PM
That was a pretty good scene.:)

angelfire east
April 4th, 2007, 06:54 PM
This was a good episode. I really enjoyed all the Daniel/Sam scenes; their both so cute and young. I still think it was silly not to take Teal'cs family back to earth and move them to another panet like the Land of Light

whihc I think they did later

Theimmortaljedi
July 9th, 2007, 08:34 AM
I liked this episode alot. We see even more of who tealc is. THough he was my favorite right off the bat, I am liking him more and more. He is written very well.

Harlan's Speechwriter
July 9th, 2007, 02:04 PM
Teal'c is one of my favourite characters too. I believe without doubt that he is good and honourable, yet at the same time feel that there is a lot about him I don't know. This episode tells us a lot of his story, while still leaving, I sense, a lot of mystery.

Theimmortaljedi
July 9th, 2007, 08:58 PM
I agree. I hope more and more of him unfolds as the series goes on.

Harlan's Speechwriter
July 9th, 2007, 10:19 PM
I agree. I hope more and more of him unfolds as the series goes on.

I love the way CJ plays Teal'c too. He isn't as outspoken as some of the other characters, but his speeches are powerful and he says so much with just tiny facial expressions and gestures.

garhkal
July 9th, 2007, 10:43 PM
While not a bash to this ep, i never understood why they seemeed to chance female actors who protrayed teal'cs wife..

Theimmortaljedi
July 16th, 2007, 03:34 AM
chance?

garhkal
July 16th, 2007, 01:50 PM
Sorry, that should have been Change....

Theimmortaljedi
July 16th, 2007, 03:24 PM
Oh, got ya. They never stick with one actress. That always bugs me too!

Killdeer
March 16th, 2008, 01:26 AM
I was watching Bloodlines tonight, and I didn't realize - did you guys know that the actress that played Drey'auc in this episode is Allison Blake in Eureka? I looked her up - I was curious, because I'd always preferred this Drey'auc to the 2nd Drey'auc.

HelloVelo
May 26th, 2008, 01:41 AM
Yeah, the original Drey'auc was a lot prettier than the later Drey'auc.

7/10

Full Review: http://stargatesummer.blogspot.com/2008/05/bloodlines.html

captain jake
June 25th, 2008, 03:00 PM
It seems like one of the things everybody is talking about is Drey'auc and the fact that TPTB changed her character. Has anybody found a reason for why they would do this? Was it Salli Richardson's acting ability that turned them towards Brook Parker for future episodes or was it something else. She did play the wife of Will Smith in "I Am Legend", so she must have had some acting ability. She did have a couple different gigs in 1998 which was the year Brook Parker took the role in the episode Family. Perhaps it was nothing more than a scheduling conflict.

If anybody has any answers I would be thrilled to hear them.

L E E
June 27th, 2008, 09:29 PM
What I like in this ep:
- i learned more about teal'c. he's got one hottie wife.
- master bratac
- master bratac beating and bossing jack
- jaffa has families. prior to this ep, and not counting teal'c, i could not imagine that the jaffa can actually have personal lives.
- daniel destroying the helpless goauld larvae. usually, he's the voice of reason. good job danny! it's nice to know he knows when to shoot and when to talk.

i'll post about what i don't like later. when i remember them.

captain jake
June 27th, 2008, 10:37 PM
What I like in this ep:
- i learned more about teal'c. he's got one hottie wife.
- master bratac
- master bratac beating and bossing jack
- jaffa has families. prior to this ep, and not counting teal'c, i could not imagine that the jaffa can actually have personal lives.
- daniel destroying the helpless goauld larvae. usually, he's the voice of reason. good job danny! it's nice to know he knows when to shoot and when to talk.

i'll post about what i don't like later. when i remember them.

Haha, where did you think the Jaffa came from? Personally I didn't like Bra'tac in these early episodes, later on in the series he becomes really cool though. The first time I saw this episode I wasn't sure what to make of Daniel shooting those infant Goa'uld's. I think it was a personal attack due to what the Goa'uld did to his wife rather than an action made by his morals.

Ulkesh47
July 1st, 2008, 07:49 PM
One of few things I remember in this episode is that Teal'c called Drey'auc "woman" in a less-than-courteous tone. But maybe it's just Jaffa culture.

jckfan55
July 1st, 2008, 08:19 PM
It seems like one of the things everybody is talking about is Drey'auc and the fact that TPTB changed her character. Has anybody found a reason for why they would do this? Was it Salli Richardson's acting ability that turned them towards Brook Parker for future episodes or was it something else. She did play the wife of Will Smith in "I Am Legend", so she must have had some acting ability. She did have a couple different gigs in 1998 which was the year Brook Parker took the role in the episode Family. Perhaps it was nothing more than a scheduling conflict.

If anybody has any answers I would be thrilled to hear them.

I don't know for sure, but I seem to recall them saying they couldn't get the original actress back.

Bratac is great & I loved the Sam& Daniel moments too.

L E E
July 1st, 2008, 11:14 PM
Haha, where did you think the Jaffa came from?

When I say "family", I meant familial attachment (is this the correct term?). Before this episode, I often thought of them as unfeeling slaves who will do whatever their Gods tells them to do. They think but only of the needs/interests of their Gods. Everything they are is about their Gods. Teal'c is just an exception.


The first time I saw this episode I wasn't sure what to make of Daniel shooting those infant Goa'uld's. I think it was a personal attack due to what the Goa'uld did to his wife rather than an action made by his morals.

I agree. If this is indeed his motivation for shooting the baby goa'ulds, then I'd like Daniel more. For me, it makes him more human.

captain jake
July 2nd, 2008, 12:16 AM
One of few things I remember in this episode is that Teal'c called Drey'auc "woman" in a less-than-courteous tone. But maybe it's just Jaffa culture.

What about him acting like Jack was his apprentice or something and don't forget that he kept cutting Jack off in the briefing room. Other than that it wasn't necessarily what he was saying, but rather his facial expressions and body language.


If anybody has any answers I would be thrilled to hear them.
I don't know for sure, but I seem to recall them saying they couldn't get the original actress back.

Bratac is great & I loved the Sam& Daniel moments too.

Really other than if she was sick or pregnant or something, I don't see why she would turn down the gig. I suppose it would make sense that she was working on a different project.


When I say "family", I meant familial attachment (is this the correct term?). Before this episode, I often thought of them as unfeeling slaves who will do whatever their Gods tells them to do. They think but only of the needs/interests of their Gods. Everything they are is about their Gods. Teal'c is just an exception.

I agree. If this is indeed his motivation for shooting the baby goa'ulds, then I'd like Daniel more. For me, it makes him more human.

Hmm, I don't ever remember thinking like thta, probably because of what we saw in the dinning hall of Apophis's palace in Children of the Gods. I don't think that if Daniel could go back he would do the same thing, slaying the children of your enemy is no honorable action.

Pic
July 21st, 2008, 07:07 AM
I can't decide if I liked Bratac in this episode or not. He hammed it up a bit when he first ran into the team. His last comment about 'crossing that bridge' was pure Bratac (meaning, yea, I got it buddy, I'm just saving it for the right moment). Then the whole holding the staff weapon in the air while Sam and Jack salute and Daniel waves... all a bit overly dramatic for my tastes.

I had just noticed that Teal'c's wife is the woman in Eureka, too. I hadn't noticed that before. Almost seems like most of the pretty people in sci-fi have gone through a stargate at one point or another, eh?

pritnep
July 26th, 2008, 06:29 PM
A cool episode and probably another one of my favourites for season 1, for learning more about Teal'c and his family, about the Goa'uld and meeting Bratac for the first time.

I liked the fight between Bratac and Jack then the comment by Bratac about "had I been 100 years younger it might not of been so easy" Jack "God I'm sorry" then Bratac brings him to the ground, "133" "You must work out" classic Bratac and Jack. :D

Teal'c and his serpent headpiece a little disappointing his eyes weren't red, but I guess they don't always have to be on and helped with his cover story.

Daniel and Sam moments were good and I have to agree with Sam what makes us human is our compassion and morality, killing a child of the enemy would make us no better then them.

ZoSo
September 15th, 2008, 02:26 PM
I agree. If this is indeed his motivation for shooting the baby goa'ulds, then I'd like Daniel more. For me, it makes him more human.

It really surprised me when he did that. Daniel is not the kind of person to do something like that, but you're right it makes him more human.


killing a child of the enemy would make us no better then them.

You're right, but it's not just any child. The Goa'uld have genetic memory and you could say that they are evil from birth. I don't blame him at all.

Ulkesh47
September 15th, 2008, 10:46 PM
I was curious, because I'd always preferred this Drey'auc to the 2nd Drey'auc.
I guess I'm one of the few that prefers the 2nd Drey'auc...

ZoSo
September 15th, 2008, 11:22 PM
I guess I'm one of the few that prefers the 2nd Drey'auc...

Yeah me too. The first one is beautiful, but I just don't like her for some reason. She doesn't seem very "Jaffaish".

Anda
September 20th, 2008, 02:16 AM
this episode was nnice because teal'c had to take a hard decision:to let his son to became a goau'ld or to save him with a risk that he coud die.http://gate world.net

RononXSpecialist
November 8th, 2008, 03:28 AM
Dont'cha just hate when they change actresses ? Good episode overall I like how bra'tec took down O'Neill lols ;D

danzig70
February 13th, 2009, 07:45 AM
I am surprised people are so forgiving of Jackson for killing the gou'ld. Carter is pretty "by the book" and seems to show disgust for Jackson for a second but thats it. He probably never carried a machine gun before and seemed to have some kind of blood lust when he had the opportunity. Even after Carter speaks to him, he still does it. I realize that Shauri was recently taken, however he had a look on his face like he enjoyed it. Just seems to show lack of military training and experience that Carter seems to have. Overall, a very important scene in the series for me.

gateship15
February 14th, 2009, 11:34 PM
good episode i like the whole Teal'c and his son thing

Butlersgate
February 23rd, 2009, 10:17 AM
I was watching Bloodlines tonight, and I didn't realize - did you guys know that the actress that played Drey'auc in this episode is Allison Blake in Eureka? I looked her up - I was curious, because I'd always preferred this Drey'auc to the 2nd Drey'auc.

me too, bra'tac is funny in this episode imo

Descent
February 26th, 2009, 05:57 PM
Bra'tac was pretty great in this episode. Him taking down the priests by himself was the highlight of the episode for me.

Also, Salli Richardson was a pretty good Drey'auc. Much better than whoever they got to be her in the later episodes. ;)

7/10 from me! Or...**1/2 out of ****. Yep.

amconway
February 26th, 2009, 06:12 PM
I am surprised people are so forgiving of Jackson for killing the gou'ld. Carter is pretty "by the book" and seems to show disgust for Jackson for a second but thats it. He probably never carried a machine gun before and seemed to have some kind of blood lust when he had the opportunity. Even after Carter speaks to him, he still does it. I realize that Shauri was recently taken, however he had a look on his face like he enjoyed it. Just seems to show lack of military training and experience that Carter seems to have. Overall, a very important scene in the series for me.

I agree with you. This is a tremendously important character scene. It shows that while Daniel is idealistic, he can also be quite ruthless when he decides that something is the right thing to do (there's a reason that Absolute Power was both believable and scary. Daniel, corrupted by Goa'uld genetic memory, would be very scary indeed). And that look on his face was really something-an terrific bit of acting from Michael Shanks.

We later find that he was completely correct. The Goa'uld are corrupted from birth by the genetic memory, but he didn't know that at this point.
At the same time, he did know that all those larval Goa'uld would be used to create more Jaffa, and then to take hosts like his wife. My feeling has always been that it was both hatred and a legitimate concern for the results of leaving the Goa'uld alive, that made his decision.

I actually have a harder time understanding Carter's attitude. She knows what the larval Goa'uld will be used for. She knows they are parasites. There is no benign Goa'uld, even without knowing about the genetic memory. Some have suggested that she is influenced by the need for stealth, but I don't buy that. All she mentions is that killing them when they are helpless is wrong.

What is the alternative? There are only two. One, to kill it when it's in a Jaffa. Two, to kill it when it's in a host, again taking two lives. At this point they had no other options. I see Sam's thinking as extremely shortsighted.

(Yippie! This post made me a Major!)

EvenstarSRV
February 26th, 2009, 07:52 PM
I agree with you. This is a tremendously important character scene. It shows that while Daniel is idealistic, he can also be quite ruthless when he decides that something is the right thing to do (there's a reason that Absolute Power was both believable and scary. Daniel, corrupted by Goa'uld genetic memory, would be very scary indeed). And that look on his face was really something-an terrific bit of acting from Michael Shanks.

We later find that he was completely correct. The Goa'uld are corrupted from birth by the genetic memory, but he didn't know that at this point.
At the same time, he did know that all those larval Goa'uld would be used to create more Jaffa, and then to take hosts like his wife. My feeling has always been that it was both hatred and a legitimate concern for the results of leaving the Goa'uld alive, that made his decision.

I see Daniel's motivations in the scene a little differently, though I agree it is an important moment for the character. He has every reason to hate even larval Goa'uld, since two of them took his wife and brother-in-law as hosts. I don't think the idea of all Goa'uld being corrupt from birth even entered his mind, he was seeking revenge for Sha're and Skarra IMO, and took the opportunity to strike back at the Goa'uld.



I actually have a harder time understanding Carter's attitude. She knows what the larval Goa'uld will be used for. She knows they are parasites. There is no benign Goa'uld, even without knowing about the genetic memory. Some have suggested that she is influenced by the need for stealth, but I don't buy that. All she mentions is that killing them when they are helpless is wrong.

What is the alternative? There are only two. One, to kill it when it's in a Jaffa. Two, to kill it when it's in a host, again taking two lives. At this point they had no other options. I see Sam's thinking as extremely shortsighted.

I do think the need for stealth was important though, since Daniel's actions likely alerted the Jaffa on Chulak to their presence, which led to them getting chased back to the gate and could have jeopardized Teal'c's mission. I saw Sam prioritizing the mission objectives in that scene, while Daniel, lacking the military discipline and very understandably influenced by his emotions, was not able to do the same.

Also, since they have no idea of even the concept of Goa'uld genetic memory at this point, I can see Sam seeing the infant Goa'uld along similar lines as the children of an enemy force, probably not inherently evil or bad themselves, but in an environment where they'll most likely end up being bad.

So I'd say in this instance it was Sam who was the idealistic one for believing that there could be non-evil Goa'uld, which did later turn out to be somewhat true with the discovery of the Tok'ra.



(Yippie! This post made me a Major!)

Congrats on the promotion! :hammond15: :)

Descent
February 26th, 2009, 07:58 PM
I see Sam's thinking as extremely shortsighted.

Agreed. The whole "we would be no better than them!" argument made no sense at all. Daniel was totally right in what he did. I feel that her reluctance was really just there to add a bit more weight to that scene... ohhh well. :daniel:

amconway
February 26th, 2009, 08:11 PM
I see Daniel's motivations in the scene a little differently, though I agree it is an important moment for the character. He has every reason to hate even larval Goa'uld, since two of them took his wife and brother-in-law as hosts. I don't think the idea of all Goa'uld being corrupt from birth even entered his mind, he was seeking revenge for Sha're and Skarra IMO, and took the opportunity to strike back at the Goa'uld.
Oh, I agree! But I also think the was aware of the implications of leaving them alive, and had no intention of letting them take hosts. That doesn't negate the fact that he enjoyed it immensely. ;)


I do think the need for stealth was important though, since Daniel's actions likely alerted the Jaffa on Chulak to their presence, which led to them getting chased back to the gate and could have jeopardized Teal'c's mission. I saw Sam prioritizing the mission objectives in that scene, while Daniel, lacking the military discipline and very understandably influenced by his emotions, was not able to do the same.
While that may have been the end result, I don't think that was actually a factor here, or Sam would have mentioned it at the same time she raised her other objection. The need for stealth might actually have swayed Daniel, where as mercy toward even an infant Goa'uld did not. The need for stealth was important, but I don't think it factored into this choice.


Also, since they have no idea of even the concept of Goa'uld genetic memory at this point, I can see Sam seeing the infant Goa'uld along the same lines as the children of an enemy force, probably not inherently evil or bad themselves, but in an environment where they'll most likely end up being bad.
I think this is exactly what she did, and I really think it was misguided, as it doesn't take into account their parasitic nature. There is nothing that can happen with those larval Goa'uld that isn't bad.


So I'd say in this instance it was Sam who was the idealistic one for believing that there could be non-evil Goa'uld, which did later turn out to be somewhat true with the discovery of the Tok'ra.
I agree, but not for the same reasons. (I wasn't saying that Daniel was being idealistic, here. I was saying that he is generally idealistic, but can also be ruthless, and this is an example of the ruthlessness coming out to play.) I don't see this as being very clear thinking on Sam's part. For one thing, I don't think she was thinking that good Goa'uld might be able to exist. All they knew was that they were evil parasites, and the notion of willing hosts, given what they knew, was a pretty big stretch. I think she just doesn't want to go the 'ends justify the means' route. This would, in fact, be pretty darn idealistic when dealing with parasites--a lot more idealistic than Daniel. The juxtaposition of the usual character roles is very interesting!

And thank you for your congratulations! :)


Agreed. The whole "we would be no better than them!" argument made no sense at all. Daniel was totally right in what he did. I feel that her reluctance was really just there to add a bit more weight to that scene... ohhh well.
Not really. Her objections were very important as they made clear exactly what Daniel was doing, and how different his actions were than some of his others. It showed a clear delineation in his ideas about 'worth saving' and 'not worth saving', and the fact that he has no problem killing when he thinks it's a good idea. (We see this again when he is going to shoot the 'child' Adria, although that probably would have bothered him more if he had been able to do it. She looked like a child, even if she wasn't.) It created a much more complex picture of the character, and made him rather different than how he had been seen before. Without Sam's objections, we would have just thought 'Oh yeah, Goa'uld are bad, no big deal' and the scene would have lost most of it's meaning.

EvenstarSRV
February 26th, 2009, 09:40 PM
While that may have been the end result, I don't think that was actually a factor here, or Sam would have mentioned it at the same time she raised her other objection. The need for stealth might actually have swayed Daniel, where as mercy toward even an infant Goa'uld did not. The need for stealth was important, but I don't think it factored into this choice.

I feel the characters' actions can be as significant a factor as what they do or not say. By just following the Jaffa to the temple, Sam was risking breaking cover, so I kinda see her desire to not fire her gun to be a sort of damage control for not following Jack's orders to stay by the gate.

And I think even if she didn't say it, Sam was thinking from military standpoint, which would be concerned with stealth on an undercover mission. Even if she'd wanted to kill the Goa'uld, she'd know gunfire would draw attention, and taking a knife to each one would take a while and they needed to get back to the gate to support Jack and Teal'c.

And I personally do not think any argument would have persuaded Daniel to not kill the Goa'uld, I think his mind was set on revenge and he relished the chance to have even a little bit of it.



I think this is exactly what she did, and I really think it was misguided, as it doesn't take into account their parasitic nature. There is nothing that can happen with those larval Goa'uld that isn't bad.

But I think that presumes that parasites are inherently bad, and scientifically speaking they aren't always so.

And I would liken it to a team going undercover into an enemy's camp where they perhaps see young children being trained to become fighters. More than likely these children will become their enemy, and killing them now would probably save the lives of innocents they may kill in the future, but you would be killing beings who haven't yet committed those acts.



I agree, but not for the same reasons. (I wasn't saying that Daniel was being idealistic, here. I was saying that he is generally idealistic, but can also be ruthless, and this is an example of the ruthlessness coming out to play.) I don't see this as being very clear thinking on Sam's part. For one thing, I don't think she was thinking that good Goa'uld might be able to exist. All they knew was that they were evil parasites, and the notion of willing hosts, given what they knew, was a pretty big stretch. I think she just doesn't want to go the 'ends justify the means' route. This would, in fact, be pretty darn idealistic when dealing with parasites--a lot more idealistic than Daniel. The juxtaposition of the usual character roles is very interesting!

Oh I agree that Daniel was by no means being idealistic here. I personally saw him as a man caught up in his emotions at that moment, and using the Goa'uld larva as an outlet for his anger and frustrations.

But I do think Sam was a bit idealistic by essentially saying that to her the ends do not justify the means, which is a line of thinking I personally found to be more clear-sighted than Daniel's, even though I understood his motivations.

The juxtaposition for roles is quite interesting, and to me helped establish both Daniel and Sam as more complex and rounded and not stereotypical characters.

amconway
February 26th, 2009, 09:58 PM
Thanks for the wonderful conversation! It's especially interesting, because while we while we see events in a fairly similar manner, our conclusions are very different, almost opposite, and I think would stay that way, no matter how many arguments we present- not unlike the characters, themselves. I suppose that's why this episode continues to be so good, and generate so much discussion!

Darn! I still can't green you! And I have been spreading it around!

EvenstarSRV
February 26th, 2009, 10:49 PM
Thanks for the wonderful conversation! It's especially interesting, because while we while we see events in a fairly similar manner, our conclusions are very different, almost opposite, and I think would stay that way, no matter how many arguments we present- not unlike the characters, themselves. I suppose that's why this episode continues to be so good, and generate so much discussion!

Darn! I still can't green you! And I have been spreading it around!

Thank you as well! Conversations like these are why I finally signed up with GW after a few months of lurking. :)

The fridge is locked for me too at the moment, so consider this an IOU green. :D

amconway
February 26th, 2009, 10:53 PM
The fridge is locked for me too at the moment, so consider this an IOU green.
Indeed! :)

Descent
February 27th, 2009, 06:13 AM
Without Sam's objections, we would have just thought 'Oh yeah, Goa'uld are bad, no big deal' and the scene would have lost most of it's meaning.

Hmm... yes, good point! I was just agreeing with you in saying that her objections were short-sighted and I didn't buy it. But! Evenstar had a great point in saying that, to Sam, they were undercover and she did not want to draw any attention. Daniel was very much driven by his emotions and wanted his chance at revenge.

Great stuff, you two. :o

amconway
February 27th, 2009, 09:02 AM
Hmm... yes, good point! I was just agreeing with you in saying that her objections were short-sighted and I didn't buy it. But! Evenstar had a great point in saying that, to Sam, they were undercover and she did not want to draw any attention. Daniel was very much driven by his emotions and wanted his chance at revenge.

Great stuff, you two.

Thank to you for starting the ball rolling!
The reason the I don't share the belief that Sam was concerned with the need for secrecy isn't that I don't think it's a logical assumption, or that not being sneaky had bad results, it's that I don't recall there being any evidence to support that Sam was influenced by that in wishing to stop Daniel. She makes no mention of it, even in passing. Or have I forgotten something?

EvenstarSRV
February 27th, 2009, 09:36 AM
Thank to you for starting the ball rolling!
The reason the I don't share the belief that Sam was concerned with the need for secrecy isn't that I don't think it's a logical assumption, or that not being sneaky had bad results, it's that I don't recall there being any evidence to support that Sam was influenced by that in wishing to stop Daniel. She makes no mention of it, even in passing. Or have I forgotten something?

I don't think she ever said it explicitly, but it's something that I kind of inferred based on her actions, training, and what happened after they left the temple. And since Carter is a military officer, I do assume that she'll be concerned with being covert on a stealth mission even if she never says it; same with O'Neill, it's part of their training.

Carter and Daniel were suppose to guard the gate and wait for O'Neill, but then they saw the procession to the temple and she decided to follow it out of curiosity, essentially not following Jack's orders. For Sam, I saw the scientist overriding the soldier at that point.

After they got what they came for at the temple, Carter starts to immediately leave, while Daniel is still fixated by the larva, to me thinking about Sha're and Skarra. For Sam, she's completed a bonus mission objective, but knows she'd better get back to the gate or she won't be able to support Jack and Teal'c, her primary objective. I saw the soldier start to reassert itself over the scientist at that point.

They leave the temple and are soon attacked by a Jaffa patrol, that Sam is able to temporarily fend off, but now they're really high-tailing back to the Gate. This also rushes the events with Teal'c, Bra'tac, and Ry'ac, and could have easily led to their capture had more Jaffa been guarding the gate.

amconway
February 27th, 2009, 09:56 AM
I don't think she ever said it explicitly, but it's something that I kind of inferred based on her actions, training, and what happened after they left the temple. And since Carter is a military officer, I do assume that she'll be concerned with being covert on a stealth mission even if she never says it; same with O'Neill, it's part of their training.

Carter and Daniel were suppose to guard the gate and wait for O'Neill, but then they saw the procession to the temple and she decided to follow it out of curiosity, essentially not following Jack's orders. For Sam, I saw the scientist overriding the soldier at that point.

After they got what they came for at the temple, Carter starts to immediately leave, while Daniel is still fixated by the larva, to me thinking about Sha're and Skarra. For Sam, she's completed a bonus mission objective, but knows she'd better get back to the gate or she won't be able to support Jack and Teal'c, her primary objective. I saw the soldier start to reassert itself over the scientist at that point.

They leave the temple and are soon attacked by a Jaffa patrol, that Sam is able to temporarily fend off, but now they're really high-tailing back to the Gate. This also rushes the events with Teal'c, Bra'tac, and Ry'ac, and could have easily led to their capture had more Jaffa been guarding the gate.

This boils down to a difference in analytical method. I don't feel like I can assume things that aren't shown, verbally or non-verbally, by the actors. In this case, you make a very logical assumption, but the next person to join the argument, say, Joe-Bob Mallrat, might use the same method to infer that Sam doesn't want him to do it because she wants to take one home as a pet-we know she likes animals... We would have no way to counter that argument, because we would have already accepted your infinately more logical hypothesis. We need to have proof within the episode, or we are left in an uncomfortable position.

EvenstarSRV
February 27th, 2009, 10:27 AM
This boils down to a difference in analytical method. I don't feel like I can assume things that aren't shown, verbally or non-verbally, by the actors. In this case, you make a very logical assumption, but the next person to join the argument, say, Joe-Bob Mallrat, might use the same method to infer that Sam doesn't want him to do it because she wants to take one home as a pet-we know she likes animals... We would have no way to counter that argument, because we would have already accepted your infinately more logical hypothesis. We need to have proof within the episode, or we are left in an uncomfortable position.

I agree is does come down to assumptions to a degree, but since we can't be shown everything on screen, I think certain assumptions have to be made based on what we know about the characters and their situation.

It's rather like whenever I watch an episode, I go in with the assumption that all of these characters care about each other. In Secrets after Apophis leaves with Sha're, both Jack and Teal'c are shown verbally trying to comfort Daniel, while Sam is shown dialing the gate and then leaving.

Based purely on what's shown on the screen, it may seem like Sam does not care about Daniel's pain at losing Sha're again, but I feel I can reasonably assume that, based on what I've been shown before concerning the two characters, Sam does sympathize with and care about Daniel even though it's not explicitly shown on the screen.

In this episode, I feel an unvoiced concern for stealth is a reasonable assumption based on the fact that Carter is a military officer in a military situation.

amconway
February 27th, 2009, 06:22 PM
I agree is does come down to assumptions to a degree, but since we can't be shown everything on screen, I think certain assumptions have to be made based on what we know about the characters and their situation.

It's rather like whenever I watch an episode, I go in with the assumption that all of these characters care about each other. In Secrets after Apophis leaves with Sha're, both Jack and Teal'c are shown verbally trying to comfort Daniel, while Sam is shown dialing the gate and then leaving.

Based purely on what's shown on the screen, it may seem like Sam does not care about Daniel's pain at losing Sha're again, but I feel I can reasonably assume that, based on what I've been shown before concerning the two characters, Sam does sympathize with and care about Daniel even though it's not explicitly shown on the screen.

In this episode, I feel an unvoiced concern for stealth is a reasonable assumption based on the fact that Carter is a military officer in a military situation.

I agree that it's reasonable, but I think it's too much of a leap to assume it here, in that we aren't shown anything to coroborate it. The assumption is based entirely on her being a military officer unlike the assumption that Sam cares for Daniel which we have seen explicitly demontrated in virtually every episode. It's much less specific. And we have seen Sam make some decisions that are rather dubious in a military light (ignoring orders and staying with Cassandra, without even radioing O'Neill to tell him that she'd figured out they wouldn't die, even though there was a radio in the same room)

EvenstarSRV
February 27th, 2009, 09:36 PM
I agree that it's reasonable, but I think it's too much of a leap to assume it here, in that we aren't shown anything to coroborate it. The assumption is based entirely on her being a military officer unlike the assumption that Sam cares for Daniel which we have seen explicitly demontrated in virtually every episode. It's much less specific. And we have seen Sam make some decisions that are rather dubious in a military light (ignoring orders and staying with Cassandra, without even radioing O'Neill to tell him that she'd figured out they wouldn't die, even though there was a radio in the same room)

But I would say that Carter has been portrayed as a pretty by-the-books military officer for the most part, so I personally feel comfortable assuming that unless there are mitigating factors, she's going to follow military protocol.

It's kinda like in Torment of Tantalus, it initially struck me a quite odd that Daniel wanted to stay behind on the planet, considering his previously shown devotion to finding Sha're. But on reflection, I saw it as the archaeologist/explorer part of Daniel temporarily overwhelming his emotions for his wife, and when given a moment to rethink his decision, he clears his head and leaves. There wasn't anything explicit in the episode about Sha're, but I felt comfortable assuming that Daniel still loved his wife despite being distracted by the database.

In this episode, I saw the scientifically curious part of Sam overwhelming the military part, then once her objective was complete she cleared her head and her all her actions after the temple were entirely in line with her military training. Same with Singularity, where her emotions as a woman temporarily overwhelmed her military discipline, or when in her excitement to test her and Daniel's theory in Cold Lazarus she forgot to ask permission for Teal'c to use his staff.

amconway
February 27th, 2009, 09:41 PM
But I would say that Carter has been portrayed as a pretty by-the-books military officer for the most part, so I personally feel comfortable assuming that unless there are mitigating factors, she's going to follow military protocol.

It's kinda like in Torment of Tantalus, it initially struck me a quite odd that Daniel wanted to stay behind on the planet, considering his previously shown devotion to finding Sha're. But on reflection, I saw it as the archaeologist/explorer part of Daniel temporarily overwhelming his emotions for his wife, and when given a moment to rethink his decision, he clears his head and leaves. There wasn't anything explicit in the episode about Sha're, but I felt comfortable assuming that Daniel still loved his wife despite being distracted by the database.

In this episode, I saw the scientifically curious part of Sam overwhelming the military part, then once her objective was complete she cleared her head and her all her actions after the temple were entirely in line with her military training. Same with Singularity, where her emotions as a woman temporarily overwhelmed her military discipline, or when in her excitement to test her and Daniel's theory in Cold Lazarus she forgot to ask permission for Teal'c to use his staff.
You raise some very good points there, but isn't it equally plausible then that her concern that Daniel is about to make a moral error in judgement also overwhelms her military training, that her morals take precedence here? Not only because she believes it to be wrong, but because she doesn't want Daniel to go down that road?

EvenstarSRV
February 27th, 2009, 11:08 PM
You raise some very good points there, but isn't it equally plausible then that her concern that Daniel is about to make a moral error in judgement also overwhelms her military training, that her morals take precedence here? Not only because she believes it to be wrong, but because she doesn't want Daniel to go down that road?

Yeah, I'd say that's equally plausible. When I watched the episode I was more focused on Teal'c's storyline and the action after the temple, so familial and military concerns were on my mind far more than moral ones, but you make a good point.

I guess my main issue was the description of Sam's actions as short-sighted and wrong while Daniel was clear-sighted and right. I don't see either characters' actions as wholly right or wrong, just that each has different motivations for their actions. I happen to agree with Sam's perspective more, whether what I inferred militarily or was stated morally, but I also understand Daniel's motivations.

amconway
February 27th, 2009, 11:20 PM
I guess my main issue was the description of Sam's actions as short-sighted and wrong while Daniel was clear-sighted and right. I don't see either characters' actions as wholly right or wrong, just that each has different motivations for their actions. I happen to agree with Sam's perspective more, whether what I inferred militarily or was stated morally, but I also understand Daniel's motivations.
Heh, whereas I feel certain that Daniel was correct. ;) Those Goa'uld needed to be deadified. :)
This truly is one of the most interesting episodes in that the character's actions can be seen in so many ways, all with equal plausibility!

EvenstarSRV
February 28th, 2009, 12:07 PM
Heh, whereas I feel certain that Daniel was correct. ;) Those Goa'uld needed to be deadified. :)
This truly is one of the most interesting episodes in that the character's actions can be seen in so many ways, all with equal plausibility!

My main problem with the thought that those Goa'uld larva needed to be killed is that while they obviously have the potential to do evil, at this point in their lives they literally haven't done anything good or evil, they just exist. The preemptive judgment that they must die personally makes me quite uncomfortable. I feel it's akin to saying all Jaffa should be killed because of their potential to do evil, but that denies the possibility of Jaffa or even some symbiotes (like the Tok'ra) doing good, which we've seen happen several times in the series.

I also find it interesting that while the symbiotes can become hosts and kill, in their immature state they can also save lives, and one did indeed save Teal'c.

amconway
February 28th, 2009, 12:22 PM
My main problem with the thought that those Goa'uld larva needed to be killed is that while they obviously have the potential to do evil, at this point in their lives they literally haven't done anything good or evil, they just exist. The preemptive judgment that they must die personally makes me quite uncomfortable. I feel it's akin to saying all Jaffa should be killed because of their potential to do evil, but that denies the possibility of Jaffa or even some symbiotes (like the Tok'ra) doing good, which we've seen happen several times in the series.

I also find it interesting that while the symbiotes can become hosts and kill, in their immature state they can also save lives, and one did indeed save Teal'c.

Well, we know that they are evil from birth, but the characters don't at this point, so we have to go with what they know. (We also know that it is possible for queens to create offspring without the genetic memory, but they don't know that either. We also know that Egeria was the only queen to do so in the history of the Goa'uld. That makes the Tok'ra rather a statistical anomoly)

Each one of those larval Goa'uld is going to take multiple senitent hosts, subsuming their free will. They have no reason to think this won't be the case, given their prior history with the Goa'uld--the free will part, that is. They know for a fact that they will take multiple hosts. How would they explain that to the families of the victims? 'Sorry, we knew they'd enslave lots of people, but since they hadn't done it yet...' That's what Goa'uld do, they know it.

They can save Jaffa, but at the expense of their immune system, and making them dependant on the Goa'uld for survival. That kind of sucks the 'good' out of it.

To me, there's a big difference between a soldier who is coerced and lied to, and a parasite using sentient beings for its own benefit.

EvenstarSRV
February 28th, 2009, 01:31 PM
Well, we know that they are evil from birth, but the characters don't at this point, so we have to go with what they know. (We also know that it is possible for queens to create offspring without the genetic memory, but they don't know that either. We also know that Egeria was the only queen to do so in the history of the Goa'uld. That makes the Tok'ra rather a statistical anomoly)

Each one of those larval Goa'uld is going to take multiple senitent hosts, subsuming their free will. They have no reason to think this won't be the case, given their prior history with the Goa'uld--the free will part, that is. They know for a fact that they will take multiple hosts. How would they explain that to the families of the victims? 'Sorry, we knew they'd enslave lots of people, but since they hadn't done it yet...' That's what Goa'uld do, they know it.

It's that very preemptive judgment against the infant Goa'uld that just I can't agree with, it's too much allowing the ends to justify the means for me, and I have major issues with that line of reasoning.

I just have a very hard time condemning anyone or anything to death until they've actually done something to deserve it. I can't agree with killing anyone based solely on their potential.

amconway
February 28th, 2009, 01:42 PM
It's that very preemptive judgment against the infant Goa'uld that just I can't agree with, it's too much allowing the ends to justify the means for me, and I have major issues with that line of reasoning.
I think we've reached an impass at this point, because i just can't see that at all, knowing that they will take hosts, enslaving them. To me, that gives every justification. The only practical alternative is to wait until they take hosts and kill them then, which would be less than ideal.

EvenstarSRV
February 28th, 2009, 01:56 PM
I think we've reached an impass at this point, because i just can't see that at all, knowing that they will take hosts, enslaving them. To me, that gives every justification. The only practical alternative is to wait until they take hosts and kill them then, which would be less than ideal.

Less than ideal yes, but more fair in my opinion. I just cannot condemn children for being born into a bad environment or with a bad heritage/ancestry.

So impasse it is. :cool:

amconway
February 28th, 2009, 02:03 PM
Less than ideal yes, but more fair in my opinion. I just cannot condemn children for being born into a bad environment or with a bad heritage/ancestry.

So impasse it is.
But you're okay with killing hosts whose slavery could have been prevented?
I feel the need to point out that we aren't talking about children with bad parents, here. We're talking about snakey alien parasites. A better comparison would be tapeworms... :)

DSG1
February 28th, 2009, 02:13 PM
Snakeheads. ;)

amconway
February 28th, 2009, 02:21 PM
Evenstar made some excellent points (we've been debating for pages now :) ), we just happen to come down on opposite sides of an issue with a wide range of opinion. I suppose the degree of divergence is what has allowed for such debate.

DSG1
February 28th, 2009, 02:24 PM
I miss Teal'c with Jr.

amconway
February 28th, 2009, 02:31 PM
I miss Teal'c with Jr.
*DSG-1 steps carefully around the debate*
;)

DSG1
February 28th, 2009, 03:39 PM
Okies, I'm still catching up with reading this thread anyway lol. ;)

amconway
February 28th, 2009, 03:42 PM
Heh, no implied condemnation! I was just admiring your diplomacy. ;)

DSG1
February 28th, 2009, 04:03 PM
Interesting reading. I took the scene with Danny killing the baby lava's as a bit of comedy break I kinda saw the humor in it. It took me by surprise tho when he did because Danny never really kills anything.

amconway
February 28th, 2009, 04:20 PM
Interesting reading. I took the scene with Danny killing the baby lava's as a bit of comedy break I kinda saw the humor in it. It took me by surprise tho when he did because Danny never really kills anything.
Good Lord! Uh, no disrespect intended, DSG1, but you really have to think about these things a little more deeply! The writers put a lot of work into these complex character moments that you're taking as comedy!

DSG1
February 28th, 2009, 04:22 PM
Ok sorry. I never take it as seriously as that. Its only scifi to me. I dont watch it to tare it apart. I watch it to enjoy it. And really, they pretty much killed them off in later eps anyway.

amconway
February 28th, 2009, 04:30 PM
Ok sorry. I never take it as seriously as that. Its only scifi to me. I dont watch it to tare it apart. I watch it to enjoy it.
There's a couple of things that you need to keep in mind about the forum. One- there's no such thing as 'only science fiction', and Two- it's very serious business. ;). Seriously, though, SG-1 was/is a fairly subtle and complex blend of elements which are quite fun to analyse, and often quite serious in their intent. It wasn't just a comedy/action show. A lot of attention was paid to ethical and moral dilemas and to complex character interactions. There's a lot there. Might I suggest watching again with an eye to underlying meaning?

DSG1
February 28th, 2009, 05:03 PM
Will do. Im an old timer thats been around the scifi block for many years. I've been a Trekkie forever. I did enjoy this ep tho because I like Teal's eps. Now back to topic. ;)

I didnt think Danny killing the snakeheads was the major vocal point of the ep it was about Teal'c saving his son's life afterall.

jelgate
February 28th, 2009, 05:14 PM
My view is was that Daniel wanted revenge. The Goa'uld had caused him so much suffereing with his wife and brother-in-law. Daniel wanted revenge. Was he right in what he did? Probably not but being a little dark is what made Stargate entertaining

EvenstarSRV
February 28th, 2009, 08:35 PM
But you're okay with killing hosts whose slavery could have been prevented?
I feel the need to point out that we aren't talking about children with bad parents, here. We're talking about snakey alien parasites. A better comparison would be tapeworms... :)

But these parasites are not like tapeworms, they're sentient beings. They are self-aware, they think, feel, plan, fear death, all the aspects of sentient life.

Those Goa'uld larva were the children of a mature Goa'uld Queen, they had absolutely no control over their parentage. By some cosmic quirk they could very well have been children of Egeria and grow up to become Tok'ra.

I'm all for preventing them from taking hosts by isolating them, keeping humans away from them, trying to remove the symbiote, and only as a last resort killing the host with the symbiote. But I cannot condemn them to death based on something so completely out of their control.

amconway
February 28th, 2009, 08:56 PM
But these parasites are not like tapeworms, they're sentient beings. They are self-aware, they think, feel, plan, fear death, all the aspects of sentient life.

Those Goa'uld larva were the children of a mature Goa'uld Queen, they had absolutely no control over their parentage. By some cosmic quirk they could very well have been children of Egeria and grow up to become Tok'ra.

I'm all for preventing them from taking hosts by isolating them, keeping humans away from them, trying to remove the symbiote, and only as a last resort killing the host with the symbiote. But I cannot condemn them to death based on something so completely out of their control.

I have to give you kudos for standing by your convictions, and I mean that sincerly! You make the hard choices, and follow through with them all the way. That's more than a little admirable.

You might guess that I disagree, of course. ;) I feel that they've given up the right to that consideration by making every attempt to enslave the galaxy, and succeeding in large part. There is no symbiote that doesn't present a clear and present danger. Their unwillingness to take non-sentient hosts only adds to that.

Still, I'm very impressed by how well you've thought out a difficult argument, even if I don't agree. :)

EvenstarSRV
March 1st, 2009, 01:30 PM
I have to give you kudos for standing by your convictions, and I mean that sincerly! You make the hard choices, and follow through with them all the way. That's more than a little admirable.

:o Thanks. Though I must admit, I've had personal experience with stuff along these lines. Children who were mistreated or discriminated against because of their parentage, not for anything they themselves did. So essentially blaming children for their parents' actions irks me. :(



You might guess that I disagree, of course. ;) I feel that they've given up the right to that consideration by making every attempt to enslave the galaxy, and succeeding in large part. There is no symbiote that doesn't present a clear and present danger. Their unwillingness to take non-sentient hosts only adds to that.


But that's exactly my point, it's the mature symbiotes have tried to enslave the galaxy and take unwilling hosts, and yes they've forfeited any right to compassion because of their actions.

But those larval Goa'uld have done absolutely nothing but swim around in that tank. They do present a danger, but one that can be managed without resorting to killing them all, IMO. That treads far too close to genocide for me to be comfortable with.

And since they themselves haven't done anything evil yet, then yes I believe they have a right to life just like any other sentient being.

amconway
March 1st, 2009, 02:18 PM
But those larval Goa'uld have done absolutely nothing but swim around in that tank. They do present a danger, but one that can be managed without resorting to killing them all, IMO. That treads far too close to genocide for me to be comfortable with.

And since they themselves haven't done anything evil yet, then yes I believe they have a right to life just like any other sentient being.
Stepping outside what the characters know, for just a second, these Goa'uld are inherently evil. There's a big difference between them and humans or Jaffa. They are inately corrupt, so while they haven't done anything evil, they are evil. I would argue that fact makes the decision about what to do with them entirely unique.
I fear that we're going in circles at this point, though. I'm pretty darn sure we've covered this ground before. ;) I recognize that tree...

EvenstarSRV
March 2nd, 2009, 12:46 AM
Stepping outside what the characters know, for just a second, these Goa'uld are inherently evil. There's a big difference between them and humans or Jaffa. They are inately corrupt, so while they haven't done anything evil, they are evil. I would argue that fact makes the decision about what to do with them entirely unique.
I fear that we're going in circles at this point, though. I'm pretty darn sure we've covered this ground before. ;) I recognize that tree...

Then I guess the main problem is I'm not convinced that symbiotes are inherently evil. Somehow one of them chose to become something different, to oppose the ways of the System lords and from Egeria came the other Tok'ra.

If one symbiote could essentially change it's mind like that, I believe others could do the same. As rare as it may be, there's some potential for good in a symbiote, which means they are not wholly evil.

amconway
March 2nd, 2009, 01:11 AM
Then I guess the main problem is I'm not convinced that symbiotes are inherently evil. Somehow one of them chose to become something different, to oppose the ways of the System lords and from Egeria came the other Tok'ra.

If one symbiote could essentially change it's mind like that, I believe others could do the same. As rare as it may be, there's some potential for good in a symbiote, which means they are not wholly evil.
Well, that's one, in the entire history of the Goa'uld--millions of them over, well, a long time. That makes it so rare an occurance as to be virtually impossible. Frankly, I think that was a bit of sketchy writing, that a Goa'uld, as corrupted as the rest of them ( and unique in their history) would up and decide they were being nasty. I don't buy it, but I have to because it's canon. It wasn't adequately explained though. Anyway, the odds are infinitesimally small, way too small to be significant, and given that her offspring are entirely devoted to killing their brethren, I don't see that as an issue.
It's also important to note that as the Tok'ra have no genetic memory, and don't use the sarcophagus, none of them were faced with the same choice and went for 'good', so the Tok'ra can't be used as an example of potential Goa'uld behavior. They're an abheration from everything that the Goa'uld are.

EvenstarSRV
March 2nd, 2009, 01:32 PM
Well, that's one, in the entire history of the Goa'uld--millions of them over, well, a long time. That makes it so rare an occurance as to be virtually impossible. Frankly, I think that was a bit of sketchy writing, that a Goa'uld, as corrupted as the rest of them ( and unique in their history) would up and decide they were being nasty. I don't buy it, but I have to because it's canon. It wasn't adequately explained though. Anyway, the odds are infinitesimally small, way too small to be significant, and given that her offspring are entirely devoted to killing their brethren, I don't see that as an issue.
It's also important to note that as the Tok'ra have no genetic memory, and don't use the sarcophagus, none of them were faced with the same choice and went for 'good', so the Tok'ra can't be used as an example of potential Goa'uld behavior. They're an abheration from everything that the Goa'uld are.

But it is canon that, for whatever reason, Egeria did decide to oppose the System Lords and passed those traits on to her offspring, which suggests some type of genetic memory to me. IMO, it happened once so it could happen again.

Also, we've seen Tok'ra revert to Goa'uld-like behavior, Jolinar in ITLOD, but then make the conscious choice to make-up for their errors and do good, Jolinar giving up her life for Sam. I would say the Tok'ra's existence is a good case against the symbiotes themselves being inherently corrupt, because then wouldn't they be just as evil and bent on enslaving the galaxy as the Goa'uld?

We've even seen a System Lord as evil as Ba'al make the choice to collaborate with the Tau'ri in order to do something good, rid the galaxy of the Replicators. This doesn't mean that Ba'al isn't a bad guy, but apparently his symbiote did have the potential to do good, albeit on a short-term basis.

amconway
March 2nd, 2009, 01:44 PM
But it is canon that, for whatever reason, Egeria did decide to oppose the System Lords and passed those traits on to her offspring, which suggests some type of genetic memory to me. IMO, it happened once so it could happen again.
No, what she passed on was the lack of genetic memory.


Also, we've seen Tok'ra revert to Goa'uld-like behavior, Jolinar in ITLOD, but then make the conscious choice to make-up for their errors and do good, Jolinar giving up her life for Sam. I would say the Tok'ra's existence is a good case against the symbiotes themselves being inherently corrupt, because then wouldn't they be just as evil and bent on enslaving the galaxy as the Goa'uld?

The Tok'ra don't have genetic memory, making them not inherently corrupt. What I was saying about them is that because they don't have genetic memory, they never had to make the choice, like Egeria did, making her the only Goa'uld to have made such a choice, so they can't be used as an example of normal Goa'uld being able to choose. Egeria is still the only exception. I think that makes it so unlikely as to be practically impossible.


We've even seen a System Lord as evil as Ba'al make the choice to collaborate with the Tau'ri in order to do something good, rid the galaxy of the Replicators. This doesn't mean that Ba'al isn't a bad guy, but apparently his symbiote did have the potential to do good, albeit on a short-term basis.

Ba'al made a strategic decision for his own benefit. 'Good' didn't enter into it.

EvenstarSRV
March 2nd, 2009, 04:57 PM
No, what she passed on was the lack of genetic memory.

She did that intentionally in the Cure to sabotage the Pangaran's efforts to make tretonin. But the Tok'ra that came from her, Jolinar, Garshaw, Lantash, etc held her beliefs about the Goa'uld, so she must have passed something unique to her offspring, something like a genetic memory different from that of other Goa'uld.



The Tok'ra don't have genetic memory, making them not inherently corrupt. What I was saying about them is that because they don't have genetic memory, they never had to make the choice, like Egeria did, making her the only Goa'uld to have made such a choice, so they can't be used as an example of normal Goa'uld being able to choose. Egeria is still the only exception. I think that makes it so unlikely as to be practically impossible.

I still feel choices like the ones Jolinar made can be used as an example. In ITLOD, at first Jolinar made a fairly instinctual choice for Goa'uld symbiotes, she took an unwilling host, completely controlled her, and used her for its own interests.

But by the end of the episode, Jolinar made a conscious choice to give up her life for Sam's, something that is not instinctual for symbiotes who would usually release toxins into their host while dying. That suggests to me that the symbiote had the potential for both good and evil, it simply depended on which instincts it chose to act on.



Ba'al made a strategic decision for his own benefit. 'Good' didn't enter into it.

It was for his own benefit, but IMO, it doesn't change the fact that his actions were for the 'good' of the galaxy, as defined by the Tau'ri of course. SG-1 is shown many times making strategic decisions for their own benefit, and whether they are considered good or evil often depends on your perspective.

In Rite of Passage, the decision to let Nirrti go was a strategic one for SG-1's own benefit, to save Cassie, but ultimately it resulted in the deaths of many innocents in Metamorphosis. So was it good or bad or perhaps somewhere in between?

amconway
March 2nd, 2009, 05:08 PM
But the Tok'ra that came from her, Jolinar, Garshaw, Lantash, etc held her beliefs about the Goa'uld, so she must have passed something unique to her offspring, something like a genetic memory different from that of other Goa'uld.
I'm sure that it was mentioned that the Tok'ra are offspring who didn't get the genetic memory. I may be wrong about that, but I'm really pretty sure. If that is the case, then Jolinar can't be used as an example.
Edit: I remember what it was now... She withheld all genetic memory from the symbiotes the were being used for the drug, but she selectively chose the memory for the Tok'ra. She basically created them to fight the Goa'uld.


It was for his own benefit, but IMO, it doesn't change the fact that his actions were for the 'good' of the galaxy, as defined by the Tau'ri of course. SG-1 is shown many times making strategic decisions for their own benefit, and whether they are considered good or evil often depends on your perspective.

In Rite of Passage, the decision to let Nirrti go was a strategic one for SG-1's own benefit, to save Cassie, but ultimately it resulted in the deaths of many innocents in Metamorphosis. So was it good or bad or perhaps somewhere in between?
I think intent matters-a lot. If one does good by accident or in the process of achieving another goal, it's just a lucky accident, not a willful desire to do the right thing. If something bad happens as a result of an attempt to do good, you get credit for trying, however much the results might be less than ideal.

EvenstarSRV
March 2nd, 2009, 06:57 PM
I'm sure that it was mentioned that the Tok'ra are offspring who didn't get the genetic memory. I may be wrong about that, but I'm really pretty sure. If that is the case, then Jolinar can't be used as an example.
Edit: I remember what it was now... She withheld all genetic memory from the symbiotes the were being used for the drug, but she selectively chose the memory for the Tok'ra. She basically created them to fight the Goa'uld.

So the Tok'ra do have genetic memory, it just helps them do good while the Goa'uld genetic memory seems to help them do evil.



I think intent matters-a lot. If one does good by accident or in the process of achieving another goal, it's just a lucky accident, not a willful desire to do the right thing. If something bad happens as a result of an attempt to do good, you get credit for trying, however much the results might be less than ideal.

I agree, intent does matter, but it's just part of the equation, IMO, the end results matter as well. I'm sure SG-1 felt their decision in Rite of Passage was a good one since it saved Cassie, though I doubt the people in Metamorphosis would feel the same way. Does the bad result make their decision any less 'good'? Probably not, but does SG-1's good intentions make it any less 'bad' from the others' perspective? Probably not, IMO.

Ultimately, for me, the Goa'uld are a much more interesting enemy because they are not purely evil, it makes them a bit more unpredictable, and therefore makes SG-1's interactions with them more unpredictable.

By the same token, to me, SG-1 are much more interesting characters because they are not purely good, they have dark sides and grey areas that can make them unpredictable as well.

amconway
March 2nd, 2009, 07:01 PM
Ultimately, for me, the Goa'uld are a much more interesting enemy because they are not purely evil, it makes them a bit more unpredictable, and therefore makes SG-1's interactions with them more unpredictable.

By the same token, to me, SG-1 are much more interesting characters because they are not purely good, they have dark sides and grey areas that can make them unpredictable as well.

:) Agree to disagree...

EvenstarSRV
March 2nd, 2009, 07:07 PM
:) Agree to disagree...

Cool, thanks for the discussion. :)

amconway
March 2nd, 2009, 07:13 PM
And the same to you! I think this is the only in-depth analysis I've been able to participate in on Gateworld! Most enjoyable!

gateship15
March 7th, 2009, 08:50 PM
this is a great episode it introduces Teal'c's family and the process of implantation and its importance.it also tells us more about teal'c himself

The Stig
April 20th, 2009, 03:38 PM
a nice little teal'c story. This episode introduces Bratac if i am not mistaken.

Cheerful Dragon
May 20th, 2009, 07:57 AM
A good episode that shows us that Teal'c does have emotions. His reaction when he found his house destroyed and also when he left his wife and son were heart-rending. Teal'c spends so much time looking like there's a nasty smell coming from somewhere, it's nice to see him react to what's going on.

Stig's right, this is the first time we meet Bra'tac. He fights well for some one who's 133 years old. I liked the interaction between him and O'Neill, and I'm glad he became a recurring character.

gateship15
May 21st, 2009, 03:38 AM
i agree with u

Ozman
May 21st, 2009, 08:44 AM
Neil Denis's (Rya'c) performance in this was good. How old was he there,10?
Also like the part where O'Neill says;

:jack: ''we'll have to cross that bridge when get to it'' or something.

and bra'tac says;

:bratac13: ''no, the bridge is too far"

lordofseas
July 31st, 2009, 04:38 PM
Neil Denis's (Rya'c) performance in this was good. How old was he there,10?
Also like the part where O'Neill says;

:jack: ''we'll have to cross that bridge when get to it'' or something.

and bra'tac says;

:bratac13: ''no, the bridge is too far"

*thumbs up* Love it. :P :D

Sp!der
August 17th, 2009, 08:47 AM
ONeill: Well Think About it, when we cross that bridge.
Bratac: The Bridge is heavily Guarded, we cannot go there ;)

jckfan55
August 17th, 2009, 01:41 PM
^You've gotta love Bra'tac!

Tachyon
November 30th, 2009, 10:46 PM
I quite like this episode. Not my favorite by far, but enjoyable.

gateship15
December 6th, 2009, 12:01 AM
this is a fantastic episode. i loved seeing this father side of teal'c.

AresLover452
December 6th, 2009, 11:00 AM
^You've gotta love Bra'tac!


Bra'tac is awesome!!

gateship15
December 6th, 2009, 05:31 PM
i like bra'tac as well

mrscopterdoc
February 3rd, 2010, 04:18 PM
Bra'tac is awesome!!

Yes he is, for a 133 year old. :D

hawk97135
February 12th, 2010, 11:44 PM
To me this rates as an average episode of SG1. Neither good or bad IMO.
However this episode introduces Bra'tac who is one of my favourite recurring characters.

maneth
March 2nd, 2010, 11:15 AM
Enjoyable ep, I loved seeing the softer side of Teal'c. And Bra'tac is fabulous, can't wait to see more of him!

Vagabond Serpent
April 2nd, 2010, 10:00 AM
Good episode. I loved Bra'Tac, he was adorable in this one, and I loved watching family side of Teal'c.

EDIT: 8/10

asdf1239
April 10th, 2010, 01:16 AM
daniel the apparent "moral compass "of the team killing a tank full of defenseless symbiotes? NOOO!!!!!!! and this only in season 1

Tallifer
September 10th, 2010, 12:18 PM
In reply to the immediately preceding comment... (and to add to the impressive debate between Amconway and Evenstar in this thread)

Are the Goauld inherently evil? Genetic memory seems to be a science fiction guise for the theological concept of predestination. Are the Gaould reprobate, that is, damned from birth? Perhaps almost all of them are, but the fact that one queen chose good could mean that the potential for good is there.

Or perhaps her choice for good was influenced by soem outside source: some other alien intervened and in effect saved her soul and the souls of her progeny the Tokra.

In either scenario, the possibility always for each Goauld to choose good either by itself or from soem outside influence.

In which case, it would be arrogant for any man, imperfect as all of us are, to presume to know for certain the fate and ultimate moral choices of any individual infant Goauld (regardless of probabilities).

Furthermore, there is a common moral position that killing helpless sentient beings is wrong regardless of their potential future sins. That is why for example Superman does not kill Lex Luthor out of hand, and why Doctor Who often saves the arch-villain the Master.

Tallifer
September 10th, 2010, 12:25 PM
Leaving aside the moral dilemna of Daniel's killing of the infant Goaulds, what is the rest of this story like?

It is very interesting to see more of Jaffar culture and Tealc's background. Bratac is one of the finest additions to the dramatis personas* of Stargate. He is noble, well-spoken, funny and enjoyable in each of his stories.

I was disappointed by the ruins of Tealc's house: no hint of alienness therein. (I did like the hint of Middle Eastern decor in his wife's new house in the later episode in the secodn season.)

*Plural accusative case for "characters in the drama."

blasphemy!
September 21st, 2010, 04:28 PM
asdf1239

I searched every reply in this thread and your comment was exactly what I was looking for. When I watched the episode the first time I thought nothing of it, but seeing daniel evolve it makes no sense him killing the goa'ulds in the tank. It just doesn't fit his later character, however one could say he was still angry over losing his wife and had a period of anger cloud his judgement.

Tallifer

As to your point, we kind of see this in season 6 or 7 when jonas returns due to the niquadriah vein about to explode below his planet. The goa'uld that is jonas's gf is conflicted at times, even saving the host having lost her chance at an empire.

johngalt
October 11th, 2010, 04:44 PM
have aquestion--what episode did lanaya come on-i'm a newbie and am not real sure what happens-just finished the episode whee kyra was really lanaya-te amnesia thing--also--is the child jackson is now looking for his child? episode 10 of season three is where teal'k kills shar'I and she keeps appearing to him and telling him to find the child--
thanks

Ulkesh47
October 12th, 2010, 07:10 PM
have aquestion--what episode did lanaya come on-i'm a newbie and am not real sure what happens-just finished the episode whee kyra was really lanaya-te amnesia thing--also--is the child jackson is now looking for his child? episode 10 of season three is where teal'k kills shar'I and she keeps appearing to him and telling him to find the child--
thanks
The episodes in which Linea appears: "Prisoners" from Season 2 and "Past and Present" from Season 3.

In response to your second question, the child Daniel is searching for is not his; it was conceived by Sha're (controlled by Amonet) and Apophis' host (controlled by Apophis). It is a Harcesis, meaning that it carries the genetic memory of the Goa'uld race.

ChulaksPrincess
October 21st, 2010, 01:40 PM
I think that this episode shows us Teal'c's heart. He has so much love for his son, and I would guess that leaving little Rya'c behind was one of the hardest things Teal'c had to do. Though I could not see the facial expressions, I believe Teal'c was sad to say good-bye to his little boy.

Rya'c: "Stay."

Teal'c: "I can not."

Ouch,! I know that hurt Teal'c; his sweet son pleading with his father to stay, and he couldn't.

Carter's Boy
December 31st, 2010, 06:18 PM
HA Tela is Mrs. teal'c! just saw that on my 500th viewing, lol

maylet
July 10th, 2011, 11:29 AM
All I was thinking while I was watching the episode once again, was how little was Rya'c.
And Bra'tac always was and will always be awesome.
I can understand Daniel's dilema, I think I may have actually do the same, larva Goa'uld is as bad a mature one, Daniel was saving all those people who once will have become a host for those Goa'uld.

Lunaeclipse
July 10th, 2011, 08:18 PM
All I was thinking while I was watching the episode once again, was how little was Rya'c.
And Bra'tac always was and will always be awesome.
I can understand Daniel's dilema, I think I may have actually do the same, larva Goa'uld is as bad a mature one, Daniel was saving all those people who once will have become a host for those Goa'uld.

Yes, but didn't the Jaffa need them to live. That being the case a lot of Jaffa on that planet may have needed them to live, even ones like Teal'c, ready to fight against the Goa'uld. The only way to stop the Goa'uld would be to take out the queen not the larvae or they could just send more. As much as I adore Daniel's this particular action at this particular time seemed a little pointless to me as much as it was well intended.

Vagabond Serpent
July 10th, 2011, 11:50 PM
Jaffa are soldiers, and soldiers die. So I fully support Daniel. After all, what are the chances that those larvae would go to the Jaffas who are against Goa'uld? Next to nothing. So he did right thing, killing the kettle before it grows into a train.

mathpiglet
July 11th, 2011, 11:41 AM
All I was thinking while I was watching the episode once again, was how little was Rya'c.
And Bra'tac always was and will always be awesome.
I can understand Daniel's dilema, I think I may have actually do the same, larva Goa'uld is as bad a mature one, Daniel was saving all those people who once will have become a host for those Goa'uld.

I don't think Daniel reasoned it out at all. I think it was a purely emotional reaction for what the Goa'uld did to Sha're and Skaara..

maylet
July 12th, 2011, 02:55 PM
Jaffa are soldiers, and soldiers die. So I fully support Daniel. After all, what are the chances that those larvae would go to the Jaffas who are against Goa'uld? Next to nothing. So he did right thing, killing the kettle before it grows into a train.

I totally agree with you

Lunaeclipse
July 12th, 2011, 07:19 PM
I don't think Daniel reasoned it out at all. I think it was a purely emotional reaction for what the Goa'uld did to Sha're and Skaara..

Yes. He was hurt and angry, the look on his face shows that... and he did hesitate a little. I really felt for Daniel in this scene.

lookupwardsnshare
August 5th, 2011, 06:10 PM
Yay! Bra'tac!! Wish he was more of an re-occurring character. Tony does a great job with this character.

Good back story for teal'c. He loves his family and does what he does to help free them and the jaffa.

Is teal'c's wife Allison from eureka?

Noxbait
August 7th, 2011, 12:35 PM
Is teal'c's wife Allison from eureka?

Yes! This is the 1st time I caught that myself. :)

dtheories
August 10th, 2011, 10:42 AM
I seriously hadn't given the fact that Teal'c had left a family behind a single thought until this episode. Shameful. Loved seeing Hammond being a hard ass, even if he softened the blow in the end. One can only wonder what might have happened if he had instead waited for Teal'c to back down when trying to go solo. Hammond knew people and most especially, the warrior mentality.
Another great quote from O'Neill: hey, hey hey, who you calling a Hassak? What's a Hassak? His budding relationship with Bra'tac is for the ages!
I'd not noticed before how Apophis' symbol was upside down at the larva seplica...or were the head tatoos upside down?
And Go Daniel!! Nonchalantly eating a power bar after pulverizing the larva gou'ald.
One of my fav endings though, with all four of them honoring Bra'tac. Nicely composed.

Brother Freyr
August 10th, 2011, 11:17 AM
My nitpick with this episode: the goa'uld larvae sit unguarded in a desolate field of gravel, with nothing else around. Oh sure, I buy that. (sarcasm).

muziqaz
August 11th, 2011, 06:15 AM
I enjoyed the the episode. It was nice to see some info on Teal'c.

poundpuppy29
August 11th, 2011, 07:18 AM
The best thing that has come out of this ep was Bra'tac

Brother Freyr
August 11th, 2011, 07:55 AM
The long-running cliché banter between Jack and Bra'tac. Love it. It's also nice to see Teal'c express a broader range of emotions.

Starmover
August 11th, 2011, 03:43 PM
Finally, a Teal'c centered episode. I think he had more lines in this one than the last 9 combined. We also get introduce to our newest good guy, Bra'tac. A warrior of great skill and cunning. I also liked Teal'c's wife, she kind of reminded me of Teyla. I bet they would've gotten along. I would say more, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there. :sholva:

jlovette
August 11th, 2011, 05:27 PM
My nitpick with this episode: the goa'uld larvae sit unguarded in a desolate field of gravel, with nothing else around. Oh sure, I buy that. (sarcasm).

I totally agree. Still, though, I loved that Daniel fired his gun anyway after the standard "we're no better than our enemies" speech.

I also liked Sam's embarrassed reaction to being call "warriors of great skill and cunning."

fems
August 12th, 2011, 04:49 AM
I totally agree. Still, though, I loved that Daniel fired his gun anyway after the standard "we're no better than our enemies" speech.



I disagree; at this point no one ever really challenged the Goa'uld. Chulak seems to be an important if not home planet for Apophis (considering that's where his FP lived and the Rite of Transference for Amaunet was performed there etc) and as far as we know it's inhabited by Jaffa, who all rely on Goa'uld larvae to survive. All that combined with Goa'uld arrogance makes it rather plausible to me that the larvae weren't guarded. The priests would most likely care for them but it appears they had to leave for church at the time.

jlovette
August 12th, 2011, 06:06 AM
I disagree; at this point no one ever really challenged the Goa'uld. Chulak seems to be an important if not home planet for Apophis (considering that's where his FP lived and the Rite of Transference for Amaunet was performed there etc) and as far as we know it's inhabited by Jaffa, who all rely on Goa'uld larvae to survive. All that combined with Goa'uld arrogance makes it rather plausible to me that the larvae weren't guarded. The priests would most likely care for them but it appears they had to leave for church at the time.

Those are all good points. I just figured after the events of Children of the Gods, they might be a little more cautious, but I'm sure Goa'uld arrogance runs pretty deep.

Scotaf
August 12th, 2011, 06:10 AM
I like this episode. It is a cool off world adventure, but it also has some nice plot building points as well as some back story for one of our favorite characters. Over all well done and well acted. Daniel and Tel'c have emotional scenes in this one that work well. It leaves you wondering if they both made the right decision. Sure by Daniel killing the larva he was saving future people (he also was possibly killing the Jaffa who were to get those larva too) but was Sam right. Was Daniel being as egotistical, power hungry, and evil by killing them when they were defenseless? It raises interesting questions of morality and warfare. (and people say that Science fiction is all about aliens and explosions! ha) Was Tel'c right? Sure that choose saved his son's immediate life, but it prolonged it by making him a slave. His choose raises interesting questions over the value of life and how hard it is to live it. Both chooses where made under emotional conditions and not really thought out, which is how we make a lot of our chooses. Good episode, lots of action, good acting, and it even makes you think! My only question is the mission was to bring Tel'c son back. They had his son and then it seems like without explanation decide to leave him on the planet. Was this explained and I just I missed it? If it wasn't explained my thought on it is that it was now to dangerous to take them through the gate and it would be safer for them to stay because there was a man hunt on for them. But if that was the case a single line like "you need to stay here it isn't safe for you to come with me" would have been all we needed to explain the situation. Again if that line did happen and I just missed it then I will stop being silly.

Lieutenant Sparrow
August 12th, 2011, 07:31 AM
Yay Bra'Tac! Pretty good Teal'c focused ep. Seeing Jaffa and Serpent guard armour and Infant Goa'uld really makes me think about how I like the Goa'uld so much more than the Ori.

Jack: We"ll just have to cross that bridge when we come to it.
Bra'tac: No the bridge is to heavily guarded.

lol

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
August 12th, 2011, 05:03 PM
Better than average SG-1 episode. First Teal'c-focus episode of the series (I don't count The Enemy Within).

Bra'tac is truly badass at the end of the episode. Also, Rya'c is really young in this one. His actor has really grew up over the next 8 years.

Starscape91
August 12th, 2011, 11:01 PM
I liked this episode and it's all because of Bra'tac. I didn't know Allison from Eureka played Teal'c's wife!

garhkal
August 13th, 2011, 04:28 PM
My nitpick with this episode: the goa'uld larvae sit unguarded in a desolate field of gravel, with nothing else around. Oh sure, I buy that. (sarcasm).

I am thinking it was cause the Gou'ald had such a hold over their slaves, that they feared them not..

KayLyne
August 13th, 2011, 10:26 PM
I'm guessing that this is the episode where Amanda was talking about the stunt mishap when she was a bit too close to the explosives and got a bit singed in the face while filming the scene where Sam & Daniel were running through the woods.

Nindif
August 15th, 2011, 05:34 AM
Bra'tac is truly badass at the end of the episode. Also, Rya'c is really young in this one. His actor has really grew up over the next 8 years.

Just an OK ep. I never really got into the whole 'Ryac' plot but he definitely grows up a lot more!

Bratac is a welcome addition to the cast and Tony Amendola plays him very well throughout the series. He's a consistent and reliable character with much to like.

Janet gets a briefing room position, one of a growing many.

Although it has some interesting arc points and nothing really wrong with it, the ep is reletively straightforward and nothing overly exciting to make me want to rewatch again.

Jae'a
August 15th, 2011, 08:27 AM
My LiveJournal post (http://jo-r-lee.livejournal.com/4162.html) :bratacanime01:

Jack's scuffle with Bra'tac is one of my favourite scenes. :lol:

chaddergate
August 15th, 2011, 02:05 PM
Yay! Bra'tac!! Wish he was more of an re-occurring character. Tony does a great job with this character.

Good back story for teal'c. He loves his family and does what he does to help free them and the jaffa.

I agree, Bra'tac, is my favorite recurring character in all of stargate, and wish he could've been on more than, what an average of 2-3 per season?

Matt G
August 15th, 2011, 03:18 PM
Another Sunday afternoon, another ep of SG1. Another one I haven't seen for ages.

1. First time we really saw Hammond's softer side...or was it a more pragmatic side, realising that he wasn't going to stop Teal'c and might as well give him a chance to get back alive.

2. First impression of Bra'tac, very impressive for 133.

3. Daniel toasting the larvae, I doubt he regrets it.

4. Did Drey'auc have that little faith in Teal'c?

LeftHandedGuitarist
August 17th, 2011, 09:42 AM
This is the first episode where I really can't think of anything much to say about it. It's average in every way, and apart from the introduction of Bra'tac is completely forgettable. General Hammond gets some good scenes early on, but I have a real dislike of any story involving Rya'c - the actor was terrible early on, fortunately he improved a lot later.

Is it only the First Prime Jaffa who receive the golden symbols on their head, while the normal Jaffa soldiers (cannon fodder) just have the painted/tatooed?

Rating: 5/10

Brother Freyr
August 17th, 2011, 10:38 AM
Is it only the First Prime Jaffa who receive the golden symbols on their head, while the normal Jaffa soldiers (cannon fodder) just have the painted/tatooed? Yes, and the gold forehead stays even after a first prime retires. So for a brief time there were a least three golden apophis tatoos walking around: Teal'c, Shak'l, and Bra'tac.

In 1969, Teal'c tells a hippie-friend that the tatoo is made by carving the design into the forehead and pouring molten gold into the grooves. It was never clear to me if Teal'c was serious or if he just said that to shut the hippie's mouth. IIRC, though, that's the only explanation the show ever offered for how the gold tatoos are made.

Traveler Enroute1
August 17th, 2011, 04:15 PM
SG Rewatch episodes: 101 - 105, 106, 107, 109, 110, 111

Bloodlines

The episode that gave us a first look at Teal'c's life before he emancipated himself from Apophis. The revelation that he left a wife and son was a big shock to me as well. Who would have guessed a First Prime had it like that. Then again, Apophis was an exacting god, and doling out rewards for loyalty could be a good controlling tool. Until the Tau'ri and their pesky history of rebellion and freedom show up, that is.

The team is very visibly shaken by Teal'c's trauma from the experimental removal of the symbiote. From his waking from a nightmare in the operating room, it's apparent that he has been in turmoil over his family's fate.

Note also that Hammond is never fooled by Jack's sudden reversal on the Chulak revisit. "This is not my first barbecue, colonel." He summons Jack into his office like a naughty boy and dares him to try to do another Daniel - Abydos trick. Poor Jack knows when the gig is up and has no choice but to confess, much like did when he faced the threat of Hammond's nuke to Abydos. Hammond was so the man. Not clear if Sam and Daniel knew and supported Jack.

Good groundwork in this background of Teal'c and the Jaffa culture. They value family, have a stratified society, and a disgraced Jaffa also disgraces his family. Dray'ac had managed to get her and Ry'ac on the road to legitamacy when Teal'c arrives and upsets it all. She was very bitter at her husband's behavior and their long fall from grace but clearly she's a survivor.

Very heartbreaking moment when Teal'c realizes he will be the instrument of his son's servitude as he gives up his symbiote to save him. Teal'c would 'die free' but he's not ready for his son's sacrifice yet, a father's dilemma.

Other stuff that comes to mind:



Whoa, forgot that Teal'c actually dialed the gate.


Teal'c's emotional outburst at the ruins of his former home was unexpected and painful.


Brat'ac's first appearance is like a crazy man!


Get to see one of the few hand to hand fights involving Jack.


Why didn't they keep their disquises on when they cleared the gate? Seems it would have made their traveling less noticeable.


Loved Salli Richardson. She and Chris had great onscreen chemistry. And Ry'ac is just adorable.


When the primtah (sp?) is killed, noted that there was red blood on it. In a later story when Chaka kills one, the blood is blue.


Jack knows scarlet fever when he sees it. Cool, that.


Danny humor: Sam wonders why the Goa'uld would leave their larvae out in the open, unguarded. Daniel said, "It's not likely that anyone on Chulak would steal one." It does seem odd that the vault sits outside the castle walls rather than within; but convenient for Sam and Daniel.


Slight reversal of roles: Sam, the military one, cautions Daniel that to kill vulnerable larvae would make them as bad as the Goa'uld, which is a bit bizarre knowing they know already how to hate humans. Daniel's anger gets the better of him and he destroys their vessel, killing them. Totally agreed with him on this. Sorry, Sam.


Go, Sam with the well delivered grenade.


What was with the priests at the gate? They seemed to function like Jaffa or slightly above them.



An emotional episode that added a layer to the stoic Jaffa, and he has a fellow rebel, the feisty 133 year old Bra'tac.

Rated 3/5.

Krisz
August 17th, 2011, 08:20 PM
This was an episode I'd completely forgotten. It was like watching it for the first time. The scene with Teal'c's nightmare vision of remembering his Primtah ceremony, even though it was while they were experimenting on removing his 'snake' was pretty intense. He didn't want it to happen to his son who was coming of age for the ceremony.

Daniel turning around and shooting the tank of Goa'uld larvae.This is the most blatantly angry and 'to hell with them' attitude Daniel has ever had that I can recall. Such an unexpected act from him.

Bra'tak checking out Jack, warrior to warrior, great interaction between them. Love how he keeps calling him, "human" in an almost derogatory fashion, as if it's a handicap as far as being a top warrior goes!

hlndncr
August 17th, 2011, 09:39 PM
This is an OK episode, but it's not one I would ever put in just for the heck of it.

I do love the Jack/Bra'tac banter, how the team backs Teal'c up, and Sam protecting Daniel.

I think Sam made the wrong argument to Daniel about not shooting the symbiote tank. They are the enemy and just as dangerous when they are young (given genetic memory and all) as when they are fully grown. The real problem is that shooting the tank gave away their position. Sam should have told them that he was risking their lives and the others. I think this may have been more likely to sway him. He may have wanted to kill the Gou'ald, but he also would not have wanted to endanger his team.




http://signavatar.com/7792_s.gif

Lunaeclipse
August 18th, 2011, 05:11 PM
This is an OK episode, but it's not one I would ever put in just for the heck of it.

I do love the Jack/Bra'tac banter, how the team backs Teal'c up, and Sam protecting Daniel.

I think Sam made the wrong argument to Daniel about not shooting the symbiote tank. They are the enemy and just as dangerous when they are young (given genetic memory and all) as when they are fully grown. The real problem is that shooting the tank gave away their position. Sam should have told them that he was risking their lives and the others. I think this may have been more likely to sway him. He may have wanted to kill the Gou'ald, but he also would not have wanted to endanger his team.

I don't think Daniel was thinking logically at that point. He appeared to be going through some anger and perhaps other emotions at the time.

hlndncr
August 18th, 2011, 05:13 PM
I don't think Daniel was thinking logically at that point. He appeared to be going through some anger and perhaps other emotions at the time.

I agree that he was acting on emotion at that moment. But I don't think Sam's argument that the symbiotes were innocent had any chance of talking him down. But he might have thought twice if he believed he was endangering his friends.



http://signavatar.com/7792_s.gif

Skydiver
August 18th, 2011, 06:29 PM
i agree with the danger....it's not saving future hosts....and it's also killing sentient beings...but yeah, all that gunfire, not good.

if daniel just HAD to kill the goa'ulds, they shoulda just tipped over the fish tank.

i also wondered how Sam managed to jam Junior in the thermos (they carry thermos' on missions???) without hurting him

the teal'c back story was good, loved the jack/bratac 'yardstick' moment

overall was it thrilling? no. but it built the groundwork for 9 more years of relationships and teamwork

Brother Freyr
August 19th, 2011, 01:05 PM
I think Sam made the wrong argument to Daniel about not shooting the symbiote tank. They are the enemy and just as dangerous when they are young (given genetic memory and all) as when they are fully grown.I agree with hlndncr. The larvae aren't innocent. They're fully formed personalities, defined by memories of millenia of domination and cruelty. They aren't blank slates. They aren't free to forge new identities. They aren't only what they inherit. They are who they inherit. Every one of the larvae in the tank was already an enemy.

Traveler Enroute1
August 19th, 2011, 02:13 PM
This is an OK episode, but it's not one I would ever put in just for the heck of it.

I do love the Jack/Bra'tac banter, how the team backs Teal'c up, and Sam protecting Daniel.

I think Sam made the wrong argument to Daniel about not shooting the symbiote tank. They are the enemy and just as dangerous when they are young (given genetic memory and all) as when they are fully grown. The real problem is that shooting the tank gave away their position. Sam should have told them that he was risking their lives and the others. I think this may have been more likely to sway him. He may have wanted to kill the Gou'ald, but he also would not have wanted to endanger his team.



Good pick up. It certainly seems out of character for Sam to be concerned about enemy parasites, babies or not. If Daniel hadn't been so anguished about his wife's infection with one of them, I'd have expected him to express something similar. At this point Daniel is still the team's 'moral compass' and not a killer.

But boy, when he grows up! :daniel09:

fems
August 20th, 2011, 05:15 AM
I'm not sure if that's really how Sam feels about it, I interpreted it more as her using an argument she thought would work for Daniel to prevent him from doing something he'd probably regret later (with him being the moral compass and all).

jelgate
August 20th, 2011, 10:26 PM
I forgot how arrogant Bra'tac was in the early years and I got to say I love it. It just shows how much the character changes. I love the returning to Chulak and tricking the Jaffa as Teal'c tries to find his son. Thier is action and I think good characterization as Teal'c searchs and fights for his wife. But its worth mentioning the discontinuity in this episode its implantation that supresses a Jaffa's immune system and in future episodes the immune system suppression is part of puberty. I also like seeing Daniel sacrifice his morals out of anger. Its a very human reaction when what Daniel has been through

juggernaut975
August 24th, 2011, 04:54 AM
Loved this episode...builds on the concept of the Jaffa and lends hope that, perhaps, with the right kind of leadership the Jaffa could be freed. With such an uprising the chances of overcoming the Goa'uld would increase significantly.

lostmonkey70
October 9th, 2011, 05:04 PM
First time I'd seen this episode is sooo many years. I really like it. Teal'c showing his more emotional side and learning more about him, the first appearance of Brey'tavc, and especially Daniel killing the defenseless Goua'ld make this a good one.

moondragon
October 13th, 2011, 10:05 PM
This was a great episode giving us more info on Teal'c. I was definitely just as surprised as O'neill when hearing he had a son and wife that he left behind :jack_new_anime05: Seeing Teal'c so emotional helped to make him seem more human in a way. All the times we have seen him before he has been more...unemotional and closed off. To see him tearful, distraught, and almost mad with grief was very touching. His sacrifice for his son was also very moving. He was willing to give up his life so his son could take Jr. He also sacrificed the freedom that he was so desperate to give Rayak in order to save him. That must have been a very difficult decision for him to accept.

Some of my more favorite moments were:
*the Bra'tac/O'neill hand to hand battle.
*O'neill "we'll cross that bridge when we get there" Bra'tac "no, that bridge is too well guarded" LOLz
*Daniel "Do you think these things need to be fed?"
*Bra'tac turning his staff weapon into an automatic one (I haven't really seen it be treated like this by any other person)

Dimes
December 23rd, 2011, 10:07 AM
Okay episode, feel bad for the Jaffas though.

Major_Clanger
September 23rd, 2012, 09:37 AM
I found that one a little disappointing but I can never work out why.

Great to meet Bratac, fantastic character. And also nice to see a bit of Chulak and so on

But why was Bratac so annoyed that they took a larval goa'uld from the temple

and when Rya'c woke up he said "a Goa'uld" to Teal'c as though he'd just got a puppy for Christmas.

But for backrground etc, a good ep.

ETA: not happy that Daniel didn't listen to Sam and just shot up the larvae anyway.

Lunaeclipse
September 30th, 2012, 08:34 PM
I found that one a little disappointing but I can never work out why.

Great to meet Bratac, fantastic character. And also nice to see a bit of Chulak and so on

But why was Bratac so annoyed that they took a larval goa'uld from the temple

and when Rya'c woke up he said "a Goa'uld" to Teal'c as though he'd just got a puppy for Christmas.

But for backrground etc, a good ep.

ETA: not happy that Daniel didn't listen to Sam and just shot up the larvae anyway.

Daniel was feeling a little emotional (in my opinion) - not thinking straight at all. If he was he would've realise that the jaffa on that planet need the larvae to survive (at the time), which I'm sure Daniel would've thought about if he had a clear head. He hated them for taking Sha're away and I guess he needed to let it out, so I've come to believe that he was quite anger-blinded.

GusF
March 31st, 2013, 10:18 AM
In my mind, this forms the last part in an unofficial trilogy of three consecutive great episodes which establish important parts of the series' mythology which have future ramifications. As the first Teal'c-centric episode, we learn more about Jaffa society than in any of the previous episodes, excluding "Children of the Gods".

The introduction of Bra'tac, who went on to appear in every subsequent season except Season Four (the worst thing about my favourite season), is its most significant addition to the Stargate universe. A wonderfully written and acted character from the get-go, he is one of those occasional characters who are introduced into a TV series who make you wonder how the series ever got along without them! With a total of 26 appearances, Bra'tac was present for many of the most important moments in the series' history, becoming arguably the SGC's most loyal and reliable offworld ally and one of the fans' favourite recurring characters. It's hard to imagine the series without him now.

Teal'c's wife Drey'auc and son Rya'c also make their debut in this episode. While their appearances were far fewer and further between than Bra'tac's, their presence was still often felt throughout the series, much like that of Sha're. This is the first episode to establish just how much Teal'c sacrificed when he broke Jack, Daniel and Sam out of the prison on Chulak and is very effective on that score. I've always loved the fact that Teal'c kept their existence a secret rather than the writers just inventing a family for him that the characters all already knew about but never previously mentioned. It's more respectful of the audience's intelligence. Incidentally, I like the fact that Rya'c is played by Neil Denis in all of his appearances over the course of seven years as it shows a rare example of continuity of actors in terms of children on television.

The episode's best scene is definitely the one in which Daniel destroys the symbiote vat as, despite him being a man of peace, it was perfectly in character for him, given what happened to Sha're and Skaara.

Falcon Horus
May 17th, 2013, 03:42 PM
So, Teal'c has a wife and son... well, that certainly was a surprise to the rest of the team.

More icky Goa'uld knowledge to be learned from this episode, like the Prim'ta and coming of age.
I think Carter knew Daniel would fire at the tank anyways, and agreed with it, although she does have a valid point that shooting the infants as it were makes them no better than the grown-up Goa'uld... If she hadn't she'd taken the MP5 away sooner.

Master Bra'tac... yay seeing him, totally kicking Jack's butt. But now I still wonder what hashak means... :p

garhkal
May 18th, 2013, 12:07 PM
Imbicile.
Dunce
Stupid.. Who knows!

Falcon Horus
May 18th, 2013, 02:38 PM
Imbicile.
Dunce
Stupid.. Who knows!

Kinda like mik'ta perhaps... :p

fems
May 19th, 2013, 10:28 AM
So, Teal'c has a wife and son... well, that certainly was a surprise to the rest of the team.

More icky Goa'uld knowledge to be learned from this episode, like the Prim'ta and coming of age.
I think Carter knew Daniel would fire at the tank anyways, and agreed with it, although she does have a valid point that shooting the infants as it were makes them no better than the grown-up Goa'uld... If she hadn't she'd taken the MP5 away sooner.

Master Bra'tac... yay seeing him, totally kicking Jack's butt. But now I still wonder what hashak means... :p

I don't really care about Daniel killing the 'defenseless' Goa'uld, I was far more concerned with him betraying their location on Apophis homeworld by shooting off all those rounds. What an idiot.

Falcon Horus
May 19th, 2013, 10:49 AM
I don't really care about Daniel killing the 'defenseless' Goa'uld, I was far more concerned with him betraying their location on Apophis homeworld by shooting off all those rounds. What an idiot.

I guess, different priorities... Besides, those church-walls seemed pretty sturdy, I don't think anyone heard. :p

fems
May 20th, 2013, 07:31 AM
I guess, different priorities... Besides, those church-walls seemed pretty sturdy, I don't think anyone heard. :p

Well, considering they had a bunch of Jaffa on their sixes a little while later, I think it's safe to say someone had overheard! :P If they'd only been following the guys (because of Teal'c's attack of the priest) I'd buy it, but weren't both Sam and Daniel being chased too?

Falcon Horus
May 20th, 2013, 08:53 AM
Well, considering they had a bunch of Jaffa on their sixes a little while later, I think it's safe to say someone had overheard! :P If they'd only been following the guys (because of Teal'c's attack of the priest) I'd buy it, but weren't both Sam and Daniel being chased too?

Oh right... now, that you mention it. They were being chased... oops, forgot about that. :p

AsgardGirl
September 15th, 2014, 06:42 AM
Not a bad episode, just the Jaffa based episode are not my cup of tea.
And I wonder if Teal’c at lease thought of taking his wife and son to some other planet, for example the one from Broca Divide?

jelgate
September 15th, 2014, 10:17 AM
How could he? When he broke SG1 out of that prison, he really didn't time to go get his family. They barely escaped as it is

AsgardGirl
September 16th, 2014, 01:53 AM
How could he? When he broke SG1 out of that prison, he really didn't time to go get his family. They barely escaped as it is

They were not in prison in this episode.

jelgate
September 16th, 2014, 09:58 AM
I thought you were talking about the pilot episode when tealc did defect.

ngewakl
January 21st, 2015, 03:12 AM
Back to my rewatch after a year and a half. Gotta say, I like this episode. It reinforces the commitment by Teal'c. He did not just betray Apophis, but he also sacrificed his family for the cause. If Stargate command was still not sure of his loyalty to Earth, this piece of new information should pretty much solidify his allegiance. Wonderful episode but it got me thinking. Why don't they have any motor vehicles in Chulack. Everyone is like walking everywhere. If I was a Jaffa, I would rebel. You're telling me that the Goauld have all these ships and gliders but yet they won't give the Jaffa a landspeeder or something. And that horn that was used to signal that there was trouble. No communication devices! The Jaffa should be really pissed off that the Goauld are hoarding all the good technology. But, I guess sometimes its hard to change the system. I mean look at our 1 percent here in America. They control almost everything and the rest of us just take it. I guess we are not very different from the Jaffa after all.

garhkal
January 21st, 2015, 09:21 PM
When you keep your slave population in lesser tech, its easier to keep control over them.

Seaboe Muffinchucker
January 27th, 2015, 12:19 PM
Also, having things like that horn that don't depend on technology may be useful. Look at all the communication the team achieves using signals.

Seaboe

maneth
August 13th, 2015, 10:51 PM
Great to see Bra'tac in this one. He's my favorite recurring character, or at least he was the last time I watched the show.

Daniel shooting the infant Goa'uld was understandable given the fate of Sha're and Skaara, but it was also incredibly stupid. The Jaffa priests aren't idiots even if they don't have access to advanced technology, so they'll know the Goa'uld weren't shot with a staff weapon. Bullets are a Tau'ri calling card...

Anja
September 6th, 2015, 06:31 AM
The horn is just an item to create a special situation - it's eye-catching,impressive and the sound is like a deep growl - everything a symbiot isn't or doesn't have. So everybody listens and the queen is presented.
Bra'tac is brilliantly introduced - wise, cunning and strong with good knowledge of human nature.

garhkal
September 6th, 2015, 08:56 PM
The horn is just an item to create a special situation - it's eye-catching,impressive and the sound is like a deep growl - everything a symbiot isn't or doesn't have. So everybody listens and the queen is presented.
Bra'tac is brilliantly introduced - wise, cunning and strong with good knowledge of human nature.

Plus a horn has been used by countless people over the years to summon help..

Tyrathraxus
June 15th, 2016, 01:23 AM
You are right, Daniel did effectively give away their position by shooting at the Large container to kill the Larval Go'auld. They were being chased!, but his overriding rage against the Go'auld for t he fate of Sha're and co overcome his logical reasoning.

Bra'tac is and always will be a personal fave of mine.

Falcon Horus
October 30th, 2017, 10:54 AM
An episode to inform us that when Teal'c turned against his false gods, he did so knowing he was leaving a wife and son behind. Knowing he might never see them again. It's a surprise, actually, that they were still alive. You'd think Apophis wouldn't take kindly to Jaffa running to the enemies side. Fortunately Bra'tac was around to keep them safe, though Dreyauc seemed less than pleased with Teal'c's arrival back on Chulak.

Funny to see Salli Richardson as the original Dreyauc, considering they recast that part later on in the show. I know her better als Allison Blake in Eureka.

We also get to play with little larvae goa'uld and boy, I wouldn't have dunked in on 4... :S

We get a little more insight into the Chulak society and the caste system which seems to be in place. Outcasts outside of the walls, left out there to fend for themselves, and from the way they scattered when seeing two Jaffa in armor, I'd they probably got the short end of a staffweapon on more than one occasion.

This episode I do have a few complaints to report about Chris' armor. The detail on the shoulderplates sure is neat, but the work on making it leaves much to be desired. It's not worthy of a hero-tag. It look and feels more like the armor of the 4th Jaffa to the right, in the third row who dies first and isn't up close to the camera too much.
Tony's armor on the other hand is far better in quality. He's also the only Jaffa we ever see who wears actual chainmail (my chainmail love only a little bit satisfied). His short sleeves are made up of tiny chainmail rings, and attached to an undershirt. Both his and Chris front are made up of the same chainmail rings, but he's the only one who wears a shirt like that. The rest of the Jaffa are always wearing that knitted fake material which looks neat from afar, very afar, but up close doesn't fit with the cluncky soundeffect.

How would you rate SG-1's "Bloodlines?"

Excellent
Good
Fair
Poor
Terrible

Seaboe Muffinchucker
October 31st, 2017, 07:25 AM
I think those shoulder pieces are rubber, given they way they flex and don't lie flat.

Seaboe

jelgate
November 8th, 2017, 06:50 PM
Bra'tac:D

That word sums it all. He is what sells this episode. Not because he is such an important recurring character but because of his eccentricity by our standards but his looks into thinking that difference. I love his confusion of the bridge metaphor. The bridge is to well guarded indeed. Also their is FH's point of interesting to learn about how the Goa'uld society functions even if some things are contradicted in future episodes. I'm looking at you implantation ceremony. It always seemed out of character for Daniel to murder those defenseless Goa'uld

Falcon Horus
November 10th, 2017, 04:49 AM
I think those shoulder pieces are rubber, given they way they flex and don't lie flat.

Quite possibly so... The more flexibility, the better for the actor's movement.

aretood2
November 10th, 2017, 12:30 PM
Bra'tac:D

That word sums it all. He is what sells this episode. Not because he is such an important recurring character but because of his eccentricity by our standards but his looks into thinking that difference. I love his confusion of the bridge metaphor. The bridge is to well guarded indeed. Also their is FH's point of interesting to learn about how the Goa'uld society functions even if some things are contradicted in future episodes. I'm looking at you implantation ceremony. It always seemed out of character for Daniel to murder those defenseless Goa'uld

Goa'uld society is rather hollow to be honest.

jelgate
November 10th, 2017, 02:07 PM
So is FH but we still like her

Falcon Horus
November 11th, 2017, 04:44 AM
Thanks. :S

Falcon Horus
November 11th, 2017, 05:33 PM
Jigsaw coming soon, but let's start with the quiz first... Go test your knowledge of the episodes of week 5: Bloodlines, Fire and Water & Hathor (https://goo.gl/forms/LzkHOJ2pXthK1Z0v2).

Falcon Horus
November 12th, 2017, 03:02 PM
And here it is, on the strike of midnight, the jigsaw for Bloodlines (https://www.jigidi.com/solve.php?id=7A5ZD8FE).

I'm finally figuring out the workings of the jigsaw creator. It all depends on the size of the image how many pieces I can set the difficulty. The bigger the image, the higher I can set it so when it's set to a relatively small number, it just means the image I'm using is of a smaller size than ... let's say 1024x768.

jelgate
November 12th, 2017, 05:50 PM
2 minutes and 37 seconds

Who Knows
November 12th, 2017, 09:55 PM
5 mins 23 secs

Falcon Horus
November 13th, 2017, 01:49 AM
I will of course solve them myself but I'm gonna leave some time before I do, cause right now I do (indeed - as Jelgate pointed out - still know what image it's supposed to be).

aretood2
November 14th, 2017, 05:26 PM
2 minutes and 37 seconds

4 Minutes and 17 Seconds. Your pack with the devil will soon run dry.

jelgate
November 14th, 2017, 05:29 PM
Probably when we get to the Ark of Truth puzzle

Falcon Horus
November 16th, 2017, 01:36 AM
Probably when we get to the Ark of Truth puzzle

I created a jigsaw monster.... :p

jelgate
November 16th, 2017, 05:32 AM
This was long before you started

Gatefan1976
November 16th, 2017, 10:22 AM
4 Minutes and 17 Seconds. Your pack with the devil will soon run dry.

never.

Falcon Horus
November 27th, 2017, 11:33 AM
3:23

I'm average.

BethHG
June 10th, 2018, 08:36 PM
4:42.

This was a good episode. I liked seeing Teal'c's family. I am currently watching Eureka with my two younger boys, and it is neat to see Salli Richardson as Teal'c's wife.

Bra'tac -- enough said :)

O'Neill's description of Hammond: "Just a man. A very good, very bald man…from Texas." I love how he is often referred to as "Hammond from Texas".

I am sort of annoyed with Daniel for shooting the Goa'uld in the tank-- he was blinded with vengeance and totally blew their cover.

Teal'c sacrificing himself for his son. Glad that they had another Goa'uld on hand.

Falcon Horus
June 11th, 2018, 02:24 AM
I am sort of annoyed with Daniel for shooting the Goa'uld in the tank-- he was blinded with vengeance and totally blew their cover.

I don't know whether I said it in my review somewhere, or not, or maybe thought differently then. It felt out of character to me, but perhaps that's more due to figuring out who this character is by TPTW -- you know, to get a feel for the Daniel Jackson we are about to get to know throughout the series.

Perhaps we'll just have to chalk it up to momentary insanity, and indeed wanting revenge, but I just saw Exodus and Enemies and when he talks to Teal'c about getting revenge for Shanau'c's death, the Daniel that's having that conversation is no longer the one who used Carter's MP5 to shoot those infant Goa'uld to smithereens.

BethHG
June 11th, 2018, 04:06 AM
It actually felt out of character to me as well, unless he really is looking at them as a bad tapeworm kind of thing who that needs to be destroyed, and totally ignoring the sentient being thing. Which it could be it since he is so close to Sha're and Skarra being taken. Hmm...I wonder what real world time was between COTG and Bloodlines."

Falcon Horus
June 11th, 2018, 04:43 AM
Isn't it mentioned somewhere? The time, I mean.

I distinctly remember Jack mentioning it, but I could be remembering it wrong of course. A couple of months, I think.

BethHG
June 11th, 2018, 05:47 AM
I just found a website with the Stargate Chronology ( made up by a fan:)). According to that, it has been six months.

Am I allowed to post links to other websites? I forget if that is okay or against the rules of the forum.

So, if it has only been six months, Daniel is still too close to that grief. Still out of character, but maybe more acceptable considering the circumstances?

Seaboe Muffinchucker
June 11th, 2018, 07:43 AM
It's never bothered me on a Daniel's character basis that he shot the infant Goa'uld, because anger and grief make us do things reason would say are irrational.

Also because there are IMO a lot of things in first season that show TPTB were feeling their way into the characters.

Seaboe

BethHG
June 11th, 2018, 08:35 AM
It's never bothered me on a Daniel's character basis that he shot the infant Goa'uld, because anger and grief make us do things reason would say are irrational.


I agree with you on that. I was thinking of a few characters from Avengers: Infinity War that acted totally irrationally, when I watched that scene actually.

Falcon Horus
June 11th, 2018, 01:13 PM
Am I allowed to post links to other websites? I forget if that is okay or against the rules of the forum.

That's very much allowed. :)
So link away.

BethHG
June 11th, 2018, 03:07 PM
http://www.operationbrainleak.com/chronologies/stargate-chronology/

Here is the link for Stargate Chronology

Falcon Horus
June 12th, 2018, 06:19 AM
http://www.operationbrainleak.com/chronologies/stargate-chronology/

Here is the link for Stargate Chronology

Oh cool... gonna check it out after work.

Chantellebaker
July 21st, 2018, 09:50 AM
I love this episode and it is the first episode that the handsome bra'tac appears in

Chantellebaker
July 21st, 2018, 12:35 PM
Hassak means weakling,fodder its goaul'd language

BethHG
July 21st, 2018, 03:09 PM
I love this episode and it is the first episode that the handsome bra'tac appears in


It was a great intro to Bra'tac. :)