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The Mighty 6 platoon
February 4th, 2010, 09:18 AM
I was going to start a thread to wax lyrical about Mass Effect 2, having recently finished it, I’d say not only was it one of the finest videogames ever made, but one of the best pieces of science fiction ever made in general. Then another thought struck me however, and that was how many science fiction games there are coming out and how they are often showing more imagination, better plots and better characters than many of the movies that have come out recently. While last year did see District 9, an inventive and original film, two other big scifi film releases were Star Trek and Avatar. Opinion can be divisive on those (I for instance loved Star Trek and have a burning passionate hatred of Avatar :D) but I think that one thing we can agree, no matter how great a film one thinks they were, was that neither were exactly the most original. And for every decent film there are the huge numbers of cinematic turkeys, Surrogates for example, a film that appeared to have been made with a checklist of other films to rip off (Yes I know it’s based off a graphic novel but still...). Videogames meanwhile have come a long way, their stories are often incredible and can provide a hugely emotional and engaging experience. I mean just take a look at this Mass Effect 2 Trailer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lx9sPQpjgjU&feature=pyv&ad=4646113104&kw=mass%20effect%202
Part of what’s so great is that you, the player can shape the fictional universe. In Mass Effect 2 decisions that you make in the original Mass Effect can be carried over and as a direct result who is alive and who is not, the political structure of the galaxy, even the very existence of a species can depend on the choices you made. My play through of Mass Effect 2 may vary considerably to someone else’s. Further with the advances in graphics and games higher profile and better script writing games are really creating many deeply interesting characters. Games can now also afford to hire a truckload of talent when it comes to voicing their characters as I think this vid shows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeP4XcR19Gw
As for that old chestnut of originality, take a look at Bioshock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g3LSOt0Cz8
Who in the movie making business would risk making a big budget movie about a Ayn Rand inspired 50’s underwater dystopia, where questions on the morality of child labour and genetic manipulation are raised? But they made a game of it and it turned out to be highly successful with a sequal soon on the way.

Finally the increased popularity of videogames has led to greater linkage to scifi literature as well. Mass Effect has 2 novels out and a third in the works and there’s starting to be videogame adaptations of literature as this vid shows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RyQ6ZzyDUM
And the games I’ve mentioned barely scratch the surface, there are a myriad of original scifi games out there as well as licensed games like Star Wars Knight of the Old Republic which ended up telling a far better story than any of the prequel films did. I think then were seeing a real explosion in scifi talent in game makers, the creators of Mass Effect, Bioware are brilliant at world building and I think the Scifi videogame scene is defiantly worth fans of the genre investigating, even if you aren’t a traditional videogamer. And if you haven’t already go buy both Mass Effect 1 and 2, you won’t regret it. ;)

DigiFluid
February 4th, 2010, 09:33 AM
I think a lot of the reason is that videogames tend to have a lot more freedom in telling a story than either television or film.

In the TV industry, you're largely dependent on just a couple of factors: advertising revenue, and how well your first 4 or 5 episodes do in the ratings. If you can't pull off either of those--no matter how good the show may be--odds are the show isn't going to survive to a season 2 (if it's even allowed to finish a season 1). Because of this, a lot of things suffer. Characterization and storytelling are perhaps not as in-depth as they could be, because the show needs to have a hook before it can be allowed to do anything really interesting. Certainly there's always exceptions to the rule, but this is generally the case.

Film is even worse. Not only do your advertisements have to be enticing enough to get people off their couches and fork over $8-15 just for a ticket, you've got 90 minutes tops before people start whining that the film "dragged on". That's just too short a timespan to (generally) tell an involved and deep story. And god forbid you should ever put text on the screen, because then people will complain that they went out to watch a movie, not 'read a book'.


But the video game market is a different animal entirely. With the rise of digital download services (vis a vis Steam, XBL, PSN, among others) you don't even have to leave your house to buy a new game. And when you do, there's a reward: either a tangible case, or if you're really on the ball a collector's edition with either snazzy junk or in-game exclusive DLC. In either case, you get something tangible for your effort.

The time-to-cash-spent ratio is also far, far more rewarding. For a large number of gamers, a 15-20 hr game is either 'just right' or 'too short' territory--far cry from the ~90 minute limitation of film. And in that more lengthy process, a plot can be far more grand and more fleshed out than would ever be allowed for on film. Not to mention character development, which can now be as detailed as you'd get in years of a well-written TV show.

Text is also fair game in videogames. Whether game instructions or codex/datapad entries explaining backstory (a la Deus Ex, Mass Effect), gamers are far more willing to spend time poring over detailed text in a way that neither television nor film allow for at all. And really, this helps to further enhance the plot aspects of the game. Mass Effect, for instance, has literally thousands of years of backstory explained through a combination of in-game dialogue and codex entries--creating a world in 2 games as real and vibrant as it took Star Wars to do in 6 movies and a library of novels.


Yes....in short, the videogame medium has vast advantages over both film and TV.

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 4th, 2010, 09:51 AM
I think a lot of the reason is that videogames tend to have a lot more freedom in telling a story than either television or film.

In the TV industry, you're largely dependent on just a couple of factors: advertising revenue, and how well your first 4 or 5 episodes do in the ratings. If you can't pull off either of those--no matter how good the show may be--odds are the show isn't going to survive to a season 2 (if it's even allowed to finish a season 1). Because of this, a lot of things suffer. Characterization and storytelling are perhaps not as in-depth as they could be, because the show needs to have a hook before it can be allowed to do anything really interesting. Certainly there's always exceptions to the rule, but this is generally the case.

Film is even worse. Not only do your advertisements have to be enticing enough to get people off their couches and fork over $8-15 just for a ticket, you've got 90 minutes tops before people start whining that the film "dragged on". That's just too short a timespan to (generally) tell an involved and deep story. And god forbid you should ever put text on the screen, because then people will complain that they went out to watch a movie, not 'read a book'.


But the video game market is a different animal entirely. With the rise of digital download services (vis a vis Steam, XBL, PSN, among others) you don't even have to leave your house to buy a new game. And when you do, there's a reward: either a tangible case, or if you're really on the ball a collector's edition with either snazzy junk or in-game exclusive DLC. In either case, you get something tangible for your effort.

The time-to-cash-spent ratio is also far, far more rewarding. For a large number of gamers, a 15-20 hr game is either 'just right' or 'too short' territory--far cry from the ~90 minute limitation of film. And in that more lengthy process, a plot can be far more grand and more fleshed out than would ever be allowed for on film. Not to mention character development, which can now be as detailed as you'd get in years of a well-written TV show.

Text is also fair game in videogames. Whether game instructions or codex/datapad entries explaining backstory (a la Deus Ex, Mass Effect), gamers are far more willing to spend time poring over detailed text in a way that neither television nor film allow for at all. And really, this helps to further enhance the plot aspects of the game. Mass Effect, for instance, has literally thousands of years of backstory explained through a combination of in-game dialogue and codex entries--creating a world in 2 games as real and vibrant as it took Star Wars to do in 6 movies and a library of novels.


Yes....in short, the videogame medium has vast advantages over both film and TV.

Indeed I think your right. Videogames hold a number of advantages over other mediums. The ability for smaller companies and niche ideas to be allowed to make headway really makes creativity far more evident in the videogame business and in scifi videogames than almost any other medium, bar perhaps literature.

Stewart5
February 4th, 2010, 11:39 AM
Well, from demos and trailers, It seems AVP is going to be great. They can visually do things that wouldnt even be considered in a film due to budget or time, or inclination. And they have been able to take AVP graphic novel background and make it into a playable story(like the original games) and make a success, unlike the movies who hadto change stuff because it was film.....

Look at Halo! Decent games with an awesome backstory that has spawned one of the best scifi novel series ever, imo.

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 4th, 2010, 11:57 AM
Well, from demos and trailers, It seems AVP is going to be great. They can visually do things that wouldnt even be considered in a film due to budget or time, or inclination. And they have been able to take AVP graphic novel background and make it into a playable story(like the original games) and make a success, unlike the movies who hadto change stuff because it was film.....

Look at Halo! Decent games with an awesome backstory that has spawned one of the best scifi novel series ever, imo.

Indeed, Alien Vs Predator is a good example of licensed scifi games being far more imaginative than their film counterparts. I mean the most recent AVP film was a rather low budget affair set in some small back water town. With the AVP games they can explore the futuristic worlds depicted in the early Alien films and many of the books and comics without having to worry about a movies massive budget.

gotthammer
February 4th, 2010, 11:57 AM
Aside from 'freedom to tell their stories' and whatnot, there's also, I believe, a chance to 'grab the player' more than in a non-interactive medium.
Immersion.
RPGs like the aforementioned Mass Effect series, or Dragon Age, and The Witcher come to mind. There's, I think, a greater chance for 'attachment'/'involvement' since the player is the one making the choices (or, at least, given the illusion of choice, but I think games now do offer more tangible results when choices are offered).
I was actually surprised (emotionally struck or something like that) when I finished Dragon Age: Origins, for instance, when the culmination of one of my choices was made apparent during the epilogue. It's like having watched a really good movie or read a good book that you didn't want to end so soon...but a bit more, since you were 'responsible'.

Re: AVP
Looks interesting. Tho' I really should upgrade my system soon (made apparent a few hours ago near the end of Mass Effect 2 :D ) before I look at more shooters like that. I'm kinda eager to try it, tho': I just want to, once again, play as a US colonial marine w/ a smartgun.

Re: Avatar (movie)
I liked it...visually. The story? Meh. The grunts should've kicked native ar*e (not that I agree w/ their tactics, mind). I hope that, if there's a sequel, they just 'glass' the natives from orbit. :D

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 4th, 2010, 12:07 PM
Aside from 'freedom to tell their stories' and whatnot, there's also, I believe, a chance to 'grab the player' more than in a non-interactive medium.
Immersion.
RPGs like the aforementioned Mass Effect series, or Dragon Age, and The Witcher come to mind. There's, I think, a greater chance for 'attachment'/'involvement' since the player is the one making the choices (or, at least, given the illusion of choice, but I think games now do offer more tangible results when choices are offered).
I was actually surprised (emotionally struck or something like that) when I finished Dragon Age: Origins, for instance, when the culmination of one of my choices was made apparent during the epilogue. It's like having watched a really good movie or read a good book that you didn't want to end so soon...but a bit more, since you were 'responsible'.

Re: AVP
Looks interesting. Tho' I really should upgrade my system soon (made apparent a few hours ago near the end of Mass Effect 2 :D ) before I look at more shooters like that. I'm kinda eager to try it, tho': I just want to, once again, play as a US colonial marine w/ a smartgun.

Re: Avatar (movie)
I liked it...visually. The story? Meh. The grunts should've kicked native ar*e (not that I agree w/ their tactics, mind). I hope that, if there's a sequel, they just 'glass' the natives from orbit. :D

Yes I’ve been really sucked in by some recent games like Dragon Age and especially Mass Effect 2. Indeed I was so sucked in to Mass Effect 2 that when on one occasion in the Story one of my favourite characters was injured I started shouting “no, no, no” at the screen. When he took a bullet in another cut scene I found myself holding my breath until I found out he was OK.

Stewart5
February 4th, 2010, 12:17 PM
Thats another reason I love games. My favourite characters are the basic humam soldier, be it colonial marines, UNSC marines, RRF from Killzone, Imperial Guard, that kind of thing. But the grunts in Avatar, with all the cool tech, are the Imperialistic bad guys.:( Again. They wont make me a fooking movie with cool scifi grunts like the above,^ who are the good guys and the heroes. Games let me do this!

Replicator Todd
February 4th, 2010, 12:19 PM
I want to disagree with you, I really do as I am no longer a gamer and loathe videogames. I did play Mass Effect completely through when it was reLeased and I kept saying to myself: WHY THE HECK HASN'T THIS MASTERPIECE BEEN MADE INTO A TV SERIES OR SOMETHING! Videogames and the entertainment industry as a whole in my opinion has decreased in quality, very rarely do we see great and really though films, TV, and videogames. But we occasionally still get them. The original Halo(I hated the 2 and 3) had a fantastic story and was a perfect game, just perfect. Its sequels and prequels were just milking it as IMO they were much lower quality. Videogames have had some top notch sci-fi and fantasy stories, Final Fantasy is a mix of both, the Zelda games, Metroid, and even Bioshock which I played through and highly enjoyed back in the day. KOTOR as well brought in gamers who didn't like Star Wars but enjoyed the universe of the old republic. But I think time will tell if videogames will become a better medium for sci-fi, as companies may start milking that part of gaming to death. They already killed the first-person shooter. (IMO)

gotthammer
February 4th, 2010, 12:21 PM
Yes I’ve been really sucked in by some recent games like Dragon Age and especially Mass Effect 2. Indeed I was so sucked in to Mass Effect 2 that when on one occasion in the Story one of my favourite characters was injured I started shouting “no, no, no” at the screen. When he took a bullet in another cut scene I found myself holding my breath until I found out he was OK.

Heh. The last time I think I was this 'involved' w/ the characters was with the Longest Journey and it's sequel, Dreamfall (both are 'adventure' games.). If you haven't played it, I do recommend both as they have quite the epic storyline and, IMHO, pretty well-made characters.

While I enjoyed it (and am looking forward for another playthrough) I have some complaints w/ Mass Effect 2: some things seemed 'too streamlined'. For example: in ME1, after you completed a side mission, Adm. Hackett <sp?> would give a short message/debrief. In ME2, you had that rather odd 'mission accomplished' page. While it doesn't really 'ruin immersion', it does kinda stand out a bit.
Another would be: I still can't land on Earth. :D That and side missions/encounters/interactions in urban areas seem rather sparse when compared to ME1.
Oh: and I had this feeling that there was too much amber/yellow. Does the series have a color-theme (ala the Chinese movie 'Hero')? :D

edit:
Having finished Mass Effect 2, I decided to visit the ME2 Spoiler section in BioWare's forum. Hehehe. Funny threads. :D

puddlejumperOZ
February 4th, 2010, 12:28 PM
My sole gaming experience has been the Never Winter Nights franchise and the opportunity the Bioweave software gave you to create your own games. It is something that is addictive in nature with computer games, they draw you in, much more than a movie or TV can. I have at times played up to 16 hours straight, until Mrs OZ got fed up of course:lol:

Oh and and Armed Assault, I have been mucking around with for a while now, only because it was given to me, and there are Stargate patches for it. Quality sux though:p

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 4th, 2010, 12:41 PM
I want to disagree with you, I really do as I am no longer a gamer and loathe videogames. I did play Mass Effect completely through when it was reLeased and I kept saying to myself: WHY THE HECK HASN'T THIS MASTERPIECE BEEN MADE INTO A TV SERIES OR SOMETHING! Videogames and the entertainment industry as a whole in my opinion has decreased in quality, very rarely do we see great and really though films, TV, and videogames. But we occasionally still get them. The original Halo(I hated the 2 and 3) had a fantastic story and was a perfect game, just perfect. Its sequels and prequels were just milking it as IMO they were much lower quality. Videogames have had some top notch sci-fi and fantasy stories, Final Fantasy is a mix of both, the Zelda games, Metroid, and even Bioshock which I played through and highly enjoyed back in the day. KOTOR as well brought in gamers who didn't like Star Wars but enjoyed the universe of the old republic. But I think time will tell if videogames will become a better medium for sci-fi, as companies may start milking that part of gaming to death. They already killed the first-person shooter. (IMO)

Booo, your wrong :D. Its good to have an opposing opinion to prove wrong though :P. Obviously I totally disagree with you, there are so many decent games, even if we limit ourselves to scifi games. The Mass Effect games, KOTOR, Bioshock, Assassins Creed, the Half Life games, Deus Ex, Dragon Age, Fallout, the Thief series. Hell even the Chronicles of Riddick games are more exciting and better acted than the film series.

Replicator Todd
February 4th, 2010, 12:44 PM
Booo, your wrong :D. Its good to have an opposing opinion to prove wrong though :P. Obviously I totally disagree with you, there are so many decent games, even if we limit ourselves to scifi games. The Mass Effect games, KOTOR, Bioshock, Assassins Creed, the Half Life games, Deus Ex, Dragon Age, Fallout, the Thief series. Hell even the Chronicles of Riddick games are more exciting and better acted than the film series.

Half-Life! One of the best videogame series of all time IMO. Its one of the only videogames I still have.....I'm not saying there are not decent games, just that there are more mediocre games than good ones now.

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 4th, 2010, 12:46 PM
My sole gaming experience has been the Never Winter Nights franchise and the opportunity the Bioweave software gave you to create your own games. It is something that is addictive in nature with computer games, they draw you in, much more than a movie or TV can. I have at times played up to 16 hours straight, until Mrs OZ got fed up of course:lol:

Oh and and Armed Assault, I have been mucking around with for a while now, only because it was given to me, and there are Stargate patches for it. Quality sux though:p

Well I applaud your taste with Armed Assault. You should try the sequal Arma 2, buggy though and needs a super computer to run it on the best graphics levels but still good. Also Neverwinter Nights was made by Bioware as you know who have also recently made the Mass Effect games and Dragon Age. And like with Neverwinter Nights before they are open to user created content, they released a toolkit for Dragon Age and there are tons of user created projects in the works.


Half-Life! One of the best videogame series of all time IMO. Its one of the only videogames I still have.....I'm not saying there are not decent games, just that there are more mediocre games than good ones now.

Pah go play Mass Effect 2. It's the best scifi sequal since the Empire Strikes Back. A statment I will stand by. Few meduims have ever provoked such a reaction from me as did that game.

Replicator Todd
February 4th, 2010, 12:52 PM
Well I applaud your taste with Armed Assault. You should try the sequal Arma 2, buggy though and needs a super computer to run it on the best graphics levels but still good. Also Neverwinter Nights was made by Bioware as you know who have also recently made the Mass Effect games and Dragon Age. And like with Neverwinter Nights before they are open to user created content, they released a toolkit for Dragon Age and there are tons of user created projects in the works.



Pah go play Mass Effect 2. It's the best scifi sequal since the Empire Strikes Back. A stament I will stand by. Few meduims have ever provoked such a reaction from me as did that game.

I will play it when it is in the bargain bin. :D

gotthammer
February 4th, 2010, 01:00 PM
Well, playing games later is sometimes better: for one, you no longer have to wait for patches/DLCs/etc.
Of course, you run the risk of the story being spoiled *looks at M6P*. :D

I do agree w/ Todd's point on mediocre games, tho': there are a lot. Of course, can't one say the same of the other mediums? For every show like 'Farscape' or 'Firefly', how many crappy sci-fi shows are there? For every comic book that's hailed as a 'classic', how many are just rehashes/remixes?
It's understandable, tho'. The video game industry is quite lucrative, if you can establish a name for yourself (which is hard, methinks). I mean, if you don't have the backing of major publishers like Activision or Electronic Arts, it will already be an uphill battle (depending on point-of-view, having a big publisher could also be a 'bad thing', esp. when it comes to what the devs/creators want vs. what the publishers want). Saying that you're 'indie' won't garner you sympathy, either, if your product isn't 'up to standards'.

Replicator Todd
February 4th, 2010, 01:04 PM
Well, playing games later is sometimes better: for one, you no longer have to wait for patches/DLCs/etc.
Of course, you run the risk of the story being spoiled *looks at M6P*. :D

I do agree w/ Todd's point on mediocre games, tho': there are a lot. Of course, can't one say the same of the other mediums? For every show like 'Farscape' or 'Firefly', how many crappy sci-fi shows are there? For every comic book that's hailed as a 'classic', how many are just rehashes/remixes?
It's understandable, tho'. The video game industry is quite lucrative, if you can establish a name for yourself (which is hard, methinks). I mean, if you don't have the backing of major publishers like Activision or Electronic Arts, it will already be an uphill battle (depending on point-of-view, having a big publisher could also be a 'bad thing', esp. when it comes to what the devs/creators want vs. what the publishers want). Saying that you're 'indie' won't garner you sympathy, either, if your product isn't 'up to standards'.

In a way, the entire entertainment industry has declined in quality. There are only handfuls of good movies, TV shows, and games as well as others now it seems. And yet the mediocre stuff rises to the top. Look at GI Joe, Transformers 2, reality shows, and I'm sorry to the fans. Halo, people will buy it just because it says Halo in the title.

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 4th, 2010, 01:16 PM
In a way, the entire entertainment industry has declined in quality. There are only handfuls of good movies, TV shows, and games as well as others now it seems. And yet the mediocre stuff rises to the top. Look at GI Joe, Transformers 2, reality shows, and I'm sorry to the fans. Halo, people will buy it just because it says Halo in the title.



I disagree, for instance with Halo ODST, the latest incarnation, they really made an effort, it was probably one of the best games in the series. And while there is GI Joe and Avatar in the film world, there is also District 9 and Moon.

As for the videogame world, the stuff on the top is normally the best, stuff like Bioshock and Mass Effect are rolling in cash. Perhaps the only Transformers equivalent in the videogame world is Call of Duty, even then it might have an insane storyline, as a FPS though its still a good game.

Stewart5
February 4th, 2010, 01:17 PM
Try reading the Halo novels and tell me they are just cashing in on the success of the first game.
The story in the games is also great,(except Halo Wars. It sucked) you just have to get past the crummy gameplay.

Daedalus-304
February 4th, 2010, 01:37 PM
I would have to agree that video games are getting better stories and experiences than movies and TV shows. I can think of three games that after I finished them, my thought was "wow, this makes movies look so bad in comparison" the first was Knights of the Old Republic, Mass Effect 1 (I'm about halfway through on the second), and Silent Hill: Shattered Memories (easily tops the story from most horror movies).

Movies and TV shows just seem to be tied down to rules, I the podcast Ronald Moore talked about how he had to make certain types of episodes and the quality declined because of that. Peter Jackson wanted to make a quality Halo movie, but the studio stopped him.

I'm also impressed with all the books and supplemental materiel with video games now. Mass Effect has two novels with a third coming out, same with Gears of War. Halo has six novels, a short story collection, a few comics and a Forerunner Trilogy coming out soon. I got the Halo encyclopedia for Christmas this year, my mom and grandma couldn't believe there was an encyclopedia that big about a video game.

gotthammer
February 4th, 2010, 01:39 PM
re: Modern Warfare
I haven't played MW2...until they 'fix' the dedicated servers issue, I'm not getting a copy.

re: decline
It's not the first time folks have said that of various industries, particularly the arts/entertainment, nor will it be the last. Maybe there really is a cycle of sorts...for every Renaissance, a Dark Age? :D
Still, one just has to be discerning, and sift the good stuff from the bad.

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 4th, 2010, 02:19 PM
I would have to agree that video games are getting better stories and experiences than movies and TV shows. I can think of three games that after I finished them, my thought was "wow, this makes movies look so bad in comparison" the first was Knights of the Old Republic, Mass Effect 1 (I'm about halfway through on the second), and Silent Hill: Shattered Memories (easily tops the story from most horror movies).

Movies and TV shows just seem to be tied down to rules, I the podcast Ronald Moore talked about how he had to make certain types of episodes and the quality declined because of that. Peter Jackson wanted to make a quality Halo movie, but the studio stopped him.

I'm also impressed with all the books and supplemental materiel with video games now. Mass Effect has two novels with a third coming out, same with Gears of War. Halo has six novels, a short story collection, a few comics and a Forerunner Trilogy coming out soon. I got the Halo encyclopedia for Christmas this year, my mom and grandma couldn't believe there was an encyclopedia that big about a video game.

I think that’s one of the best things about games, there so free to explore any setting or elements that they wish without any restrictions and games can approach topics or story ideas that a film or tv show would never touch.

On top of that the huge amount of background detail, the encyclopedia, the Codex’s, the novels, the comics that are based on games are huge. Many of them are actually good. All we need is a good videogame movie and the cycle will be complete :D

EllieVee
February 4th, 2010, 03:27 PM
Admittedly, I would be put off by an Ayn Rand inspired anything.

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 4th, 2010, 03:29 PM
Admittedly, I would be put off by an Ayn Rand inspired anything.

What if said game esstentialy tears Ayn Rand apart?

EllieVee
February 4th, 2010, 03:37 PM
What if said game esstentialy tears Ayn Rand apart?

I'd call that her just desserts.

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 4th, 2010, 03:42 PM
I'd call that her just desserts.

Then you'd enjoy Bioshock.

Stewart5
February 4th, 2010, 04:08 PM
Whoot! Lets pund on Ayn Rand!

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 4th, 2010, 04:24 PM
Whoot! Lets pund on Ayn Rand!

She sucks :p She really sucks according to Bioshock.

Daedalus-304
February 4th, 2010, 04:30 PM
Admittedly, I would be put off by an Ayn Rand inspired anything.

I haven't played Bioshock yet, it's on my to-get list. Who exactly was Ayn Rand?

rlr149
February 4th, 2010, 04:33 PM
have to agree there are some good stories in some games these days. i'm currently about to start the reaper IFF mission in ME2, and liking it alot, but i do prefer games where i can strike out on my own and leave the story. i didn't even bother doing any story missions after i got the horse in OBLIVION, and played it for months!! and i remember it more fondly than half life 2(one step away from an 'on-rails' shooter imo:()
currently on a break from EVE online but i have some experiences i took part in, that i'm prouder of than pretty much any story driven game i've finished.
used to play planetside too and this link (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/09/05/planetside-the-1/) has a more individual slant(or more interesting imo) than the usual recounts of games.

give me an open world to make my own story.

i'm disapointed with gaming these days, had "elite" on the BBC micro model B "back in the day", it came on a single 5 1/4 inch floppy disc(only 360 kb capacity and actually floppy;)) and it had 8 galaxies to play in.( i still play it on a bbc emu occasionally:cool:) and i'm finding games have regressed rather than progressed.............. yeah the graphics are pretty and everythings shiny but there's less to do. and theres no excuse that will suffice, the tech has improved immesurably and we have "procedurally generated" landscape/whatever! a game that somewhat writes itself for you should be available.

oh, and we need less "voice talent" and more resident evil 1 voice over work:D

puddlejumperOZ
February 4th, 2010, 04:34 PM
And what has happened to Stargate Worlds, it looks promising on YouTube, but oh how long will it take?:eek:

DigiFluid
February 4th, 2010, 04:37 PM
SGW looks like crap ;)

Quite looking forward to Star Wars: The Old Republic though :D

EllieVee
February 4th, 2010, 04:38 PM
I haven't played Bioshock yet, it's on my to-get list. Who exactly was Ayn Rand?

Nutjob writer.

Replicator Fifth
February 4th, 2010, 04:40 PM
I was going to start a thread to wax lyrical about Mass Effect 2, having recently finished it, I’d say not only was it one of the finest videogames ever made, but one of the best pieces of science fiction ever made in general. Then another thought struck me however, and that was how many science fiction games there are coming out and how they are often showing more imagination, better plots and better characters than many of the movies that have come out recently. While last year did see District 9, an inventive and original film, two other big scifi film releases were Star Trek and Avatar. Opinion can be divisive on those (I for instance loved Star Trek and have a burning passionate hatred of Avatar :D) but I think that one thing we can agree, no matter how great a film one thinks they were, was that neither were exactly the most original. And for every decent film there are the huge numbers of cinematic turkeys, Surrogates for example, a film that appeared to have been made with a checklist of other films to rip off (Yes I know it’s based off a graphic novel but still...). Videogames meanwhile have come a long way, their stories are often incredible and can provide a hugely emotional and engaging experience. I mean just take a look at this Mass Effect 2 Trailer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lx9sPQpjgjU&feature=pyv&ad=4646113104&kw=mass%20effect%202
Part of what’s so great is that you, the player can shape the fictional universe. In Mass Effect 2 decisions that you make in the original Mass Effect can be carried over and as a direct result who is alive and who is not, the political structure of the galaxy, even the very existence of a species can depend on the choices you made. My play through of Mass Effect 2 may vary considerably to someone else’s. Further with the advances in graphics and games higher profile and better script writing games are really creating many deeply interesting characters. Games can now also afford to hire a truckload of talent when it comes to voicing their characters as I think this vid shows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeP4XcR19Gw
As for that old chestnut of originality, take a look at Bioshock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g3LSOt0Cz8
Who in the movie making business would risk making a big budget movie about a Ayn Rand inspired 50’s underwater dystopia, where questions on the morality of child labour and genetic manipulation are raised? But they made a game of it and it turned out to be highly successful with a sequal soon on the way.

Finally the increased popularity of videogames has led to greater linkage to scifi literature as well. Mass Effect has 2 novels out and a third in the works and there’s starting to be videogame adaptations of literature as this vid shows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RyQ6ZzyDUM
And the games I’ve mentioned barely scratch the surface, there are a myriad of original scifi games out there as well as licensed games like Star Wars Knight of the Old Republic which ended up telling a far better story than any of the prequel films did. I think then were seeing a real explosion in scifi talent in game makers, the creators of Mass Effect, Bioware are brilliant at world building and I think the Scifi videogame scene is defiantly worth fans of the genre investigating, even if you aren’t a traditional videogamer. And if you haven’t already go buy both Mass Effect 1 and 2, you won’t regret it. ;)
LOVE Mass Effect!

And don't forget Dead Space!


http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=269F3617919F76D8&search_query=Dead+Space+webcomics

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 4th, 2010, 04:45 PM
Nutjob writer.
Nutjob philosophical writer. Bioshock shows what a bad idea it would be to follow her ideals :D

And don't forget Dead Space!


http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=269F3617919F76D8&search_query=Dead+Space+webcomics

Indeed another fine scifi game.

EllieVee
February 4th, 2010, 04:52 PM
Nutjob philosophical writer. Bioshock shows what a bad idea it would be to follow her ideals :D

As I said to my then boss (who had encouraged me to read her) after reading Atlas Shrugged, 'I've never come across a more appallingly ugly and selfish group of people'. Needless to say, I didn't get promoted after that. I credit Ayn Rand for turning me into a the lefty I am today.

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 4th, 2010, 04:54 PM
As I said to my then boss (who had encouraged me to read her) after reading Atlas Shrugged, 'I've never come across a more appallingly ugly and selfish group of people'. Needless to say, I didn't get promoted after that. I credit Ayn Rand for turning me into a the lefty I am today.

Boo lefties. Bioshock is essentially an attack on extreme right wing philosophy like Rand’s. Bioshock 2 is shaping up to be an attack on extreme left wing thinking. All fair then :D

Replicator Fifth
February 4th, 2010, 04:58 PM
Boo lefties. Bioshock is essentially an attack on extreme right wing philosophy like Rand’s. Bioshock 2 is shaping up to be an attack on extreme left wing thinking. All fair then :D

Lefties? whats that?

EllieVee
February 4th, 2010, 05:13 PM
Boo lefties. Bioshock is essentially an attack on extreme right wing philosophy like Rand’s. Bioshock 2 is shaping up to be an attack on extreme left wing thinking. All fair then :D

And fair enough.

Stewart5
February 4th, 2010, 05:22 PM
Lefties? whats that?

the political and philisophical left wing

EllieVee
February 4th, 2010, 05:27 PM
Now, Garrow, why did you post that twice? :P

GuHNDoi
February 4th, 2010, 08:07 PM
I haven't played Mass Effect 2 yet! (Need an XBOX 360) The first was one of the best Sci-Fi stories I ever experienced. I like The Normandy, it is a cool ship.

Can you make Shepard a woman again in this one? Any game where given the choice of creating your main character. I always create a woman. Just Because!

Although I enjoy some of the games to come out recently, I have been enjoying alot of 16-Bit games lately! All the games I used to play in the 90's Like, Super-Smash TV, Contra III, R-Type III, Battletoads in Battlemaniacs. There isn't a whole lot of story to those games but the gameplay is awesome (and Super Difficult)!

Currently playing -

PS3 - Assassins Creed II- Started playing today.
Tekken 6 - Asuka Kazama - Scenario Campaign:mad: Atleast I beat ''Nightmare Train'':D
Modern Warfare 2 - On Veteran, I am going to give up! Don't play much online.


Now, Garrow, why did you post that twice? :P

One must be a decoy!

magictrick
February 4th, 2010, 09:49 PM
I haven't played Mass Effect 2 yet! (Need an XBOX 360) The first was one of the best Sci-Fi stories I ever experienced. I like The Normandy, it is a cool ship.

Can you make Shepard a woman again in this one? Any game where given the choice of creating your main character. I always create a woman. Just Because!

You don't need a 360, you can just play it on the PC, that's what I do. I'm playing Mass Effect 2 right now and I have to say I'm totally hooked. The character interaction is amazing for a video game. I love the games that evolve based on the choices you make. And BioShock has really outdone themselves with this one by allowing to import your saves from the first Mass Effect game into this one so the decisions you previously made affect the storyline this time around.

I am however skeptical about movies based on video games. Those never seem to work out well. I have yet to see a good movie based on a video game. The Resident Evil series is kind of enjoyable but really gets old after the first movie. None of the newer movies add anything new or interesting to that franchise.

DigiFluid
February 4th, 2010, 10:10 PM
I am however skeptical about movies based on video games. Those never seem to work out well. I have yet to see a good movie based on a video game. The Resident Evil series is kind of enjoyable but really gets old after the first movie. None of the newer movies add anything new or interesting to that franchise.
Case in point: Hitman. 3 awesome games (4, if you're generous enough to count Blood Money) and they come out with a freaking terrible movie.

GuHNDoi
February 5th, 2010, 12:23 AM
You don't need a 360, you can just play it on the PC, that's what I do. I'm playing Mass Effect 2 right now and I have to say I'm totally hooked. The character interaction is amazing for a video game. I love the games that evolve based on the choices you make. And BioShock has really outdone themselves with this one by allowing to import your saves from the first Mass Effect game into this one so the decisions you previously made affect the storyline this time around.

I was going to get it on PC. I am just more used to playing games on consoles and in front of a TV. Where I can lay back and relax, as opposed to sitting at the comp.


Case in point: Hitman. 3 awesome games (4, if you're generous enough to count Blood Money) and they come out with a freaking terrible movie.

What i don't like about that movie, is that they used footage from Dark Angel! WTF!

gotthammer
February 5th, 2010, 01:55 AM
Sooo many games...so little time/cash. :D
I'm actually thinking of getting a PS3 AND upgrading the PC. I'm really itching to play the Uncharted games.

For online: the only thing I really play for multiplayer now is Call of Duty: World at War (10th Mt.Div's HC Tac server). Not touching MW2 'til it gets dediservers. :)

Currently playing: ultradefrag and nvidia drivers... everything's a bit sluggish, so maybe it's time for a bit o' tweaking/maintenance :D

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 5th, 2010, 02:08 AM
I am however skeptical about movies based on video games. Those never seem to work out well. I have yet to see a good movie based on a video game. The Resident Evil series is kind of enjoyable but really gets old after the first movie. None of the newer movies add anything new or interesting to that franchise.

There are several problems with videogame movies. One is the transition from one to another doesn’t work, you can’t transfer a story that might be 20, 30, 40 hours or longer effectively into a 2 hour movie. Also creatively the studious run a much tighter ring around movie production, they will meddle, demand cuts, restructure the film to make it seem more appealing to their audience in their eyes. This actually happened with the Hitman Movie that was messed around creatively by the studio and forced the director to do reshoots. Often the studio execs seem completely out of touch, thinking that the gamer audience is completely made up of teenage boys. Such a thing happened with the Max Payne film, the execs clearly were just told it was a shoot em up videogame, so they decided to make a pg 13 level action film. With Mark Wahlburgh. In the process they took out many of the things that defined the games, the noir style, the ultra violence, the dark humour the games always had. Instead they turned it into generic trash.

There are ways they could improve these films. One don’t give them to directors like Uwe Boll. That man couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery. Secondly they need to stop trying to adapt story lines of games directly but instead to films set in the same worlds as the games. For example a film adaptation of Dragon Age Origins would be impossible, a huge game, richly detailed, there isn’t a chance in hell. But you could make a film or series of films about the origins of the Grey Wardens, the Heros of the game. You could make an effective film like that, with it tied to the games world but not forced to try and hack up a massive and detailed storyline into digestible movie size chunks.

On a final note there is always of course the possibility of tv show adaptations. Indeed it is arguable that would be far more suitable for 40 hour+ games like Mass Effect 1 or 2. Of course there are a lot of problems there, having just finished Mass Effect 2, I can say it’s massively epic, with things like mile long crashed space ships, huge space stations, massive futuristic cities and weird aliens. The cost of making it into a tv show, with all the props, sets, cgi excetera would be astronomical.

gotthammer
February 5th, 2010, 02:23 AM
Why bother making stuff like Mass Effect or Dragon Age:Origins into a movie or TV series, to begin with? :D
Aside from the cost issues, there's also the issue of translating whatever involvement a player has from the game to the show. If it's a matter of getting 'more people interested', the money that could have been spent on a show/movie could be used for marketing or more content for the game anyway.
Heck, I'd love to see DA:O's Morrigan 'in the flesh' (provided she's played by the voice actress! otherwise, I probably wouldn't care :D )...but not if things are 'lost in translation'. The most apt 'translation' would probably be via pre-rendered CG (like DA:O's Sacred Ashes trailer or ME's pre-rendered trailers). Mini-series, perhaps.
Oh, and with games that have customizable characters (again, like ME or DA:O), having a 'canon main character' could be an issue (you'll probably have someone who played a FemShep or a Dalish PC nerd raging or something). :D

Re: The Max Payne movie: Me and my bro (and he's the one who was really into both Max Payne games) kinda liked it...It wasn't 'accurate', granted, but it was quite close. I do agree w/ the PG-13 thing: if they had stuck to the grim violence of the game, the impact of the movie would have been better.
Re: Hitman movie: yup. Sucked. I only wanted to see it on cable because of the 'Jin-roh'-esque armor and the Mi-24. I don't care about tech issues and whatnot, but Hind > other helos, even if only in looks (come one, no other helicopter screams "I want you dead" than one of those). :D

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 5th, 2010, 02:34 AM
Why bother making stuff like Mass Effect or Dragon Age:Origins into a movie or TV series, to begin with? :D
Aside from the cost issues, there's also the issue of translating whatever involvement a player has from the game to the show. If it's a matter of getting 'more people interested', the money that could have been spent on a show/movie could be used for marketing or more content for the game anyway.
Heck, I'd love to see DA:O's Morrigan 'in the flesh' (provided she's played by the voice actress! otherwise, I probably wouldn't care :D )...but not if things are 'lost in translation'. The most apt 'translation' would probably be via pre-rendered CG (like DA:O's Sacred Ashes trailer or ME's pre-rendered trailers). Mini-series, perhaps.
Oh, and with games that have customizable characters (again, like ME or DA:O), having a 'canon main character' could be an issue (you'll probably have someone who played a FemShep or a Dalish PC nerd raging or something). :D

Re: The Max Payne movie: Me and my bro (and he's the one who was really into both Max Payne games) kinda liked it...It wasn't 'accurate', granted, but it was quite close. I do agree w/ the PG-13 thing: if they had stuck to the grim violence of the game, the impact of the movie would have been better.
Re: Hitman movie: yup. Sucked. I only wanted to see it on cable because of the 'Jin-roh'-esque armor and the Mi-24. I don't care about tech issues and whatnot, but Hind > other helos, even if only in looks (come one, no other helicopter screams "I want you dead" than one of those). :D

I think you could successfully make a movie based on the smaller stories in the games universe. A film of Mass Effect wouldn’t work, but a film about the First Contact War which is part of the history of the Mass Effect universe, when Humanity first appears on the scene would be cool.

gotthammer
February 5th, 2010, 02:53 AM
Yup. True. You could feature the 'side characters'. Kinda like what they did w/ the ME novels, I think (haven't really started on 'em yet...danged reading backlog), or the Penny Arcade comic strips featuring Morrigan and Flemeth for DA:O.

Other than that, I want EPIC space battles. Here's this link again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvdKw9XMim4
This is the intro of a game (that I haven't played...probably won't in any forseeable future. It's in Japanese), based on an anime (that was apparently based on a book...), that features 2 factions, usually fighting w/ fleets that have a size of 15,000 ships per fleet (one of the largest engagements in the anime involved more than 200,000 ships, I think), w/ engagement ranges of something like 60-90 million kilometres (I forget which, exactly) for those beam weapons (tactics are Napoleonic era based: think of each ship as an infantryman or grenadier, but in space...so it's 3D. Close in-fighting uses fighters).

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 5th, 2010, 03:22 AM
Yup. True. You could feature the 'side characters'. Kinda like what they did w/ the ME novels, I think (haven't really started on 'em yet...danged reading backlog), or the Penny Arcade comic strips featuring Morrigan and Flemeth for DA:O.

Other than that, I want EPIC space battles. Here's this link again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvdKw9XMim4
This is the intro of a game (that I haven't played...probably won't in any forseeable future. It's in Japanese), based on an anime (that was apparently based on a book...), that features 2 factions, usually fighting w/ fleets that have a size of 15,000 ships per fleet (one of the largest engagements in the anime involved more than 200,000 ships, I think), w/ engagement ranges of something like 60-90 million kilometres (I forget which, exactly) for those beam weapons (tactics are Napoleonic era based: think of each ship as an infantryman or grenadier, but in space...so it's 3D. Close in-fighting uses fighters).

I don’t know, there is such a thing as too large a space battle :D. I like the fact in Mass Effect 2 it was just the Normandy taking on the Collectors, out there with no backup, the lone ship on a suicide mission.

gotthammer
February 5th, 2010, 03:49 AM
Too large a space battle?!? NEVER! :D
I did like how Normandy 2.0 got shown using it's new toys. I wish there were more of that, tho'. I still think Shepard should get his/her own FLEET. Pfft at Frigates...I want a Dreadnought (*drools at thought* And I dub thee 'Dies Irae'). :D

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 5th, 2010, 05:10 AM
Too large a space battle?!? NEVER! :D
I did like how Normandy 2.0 got shown using it's new toys. I wish there were more of that, tho'. I still think Shepard should get his/her own FLEET. Pfft at Frigates...I want a Dreadnought (*drools at thought* And I dub thee 'Dies Irae'). :D
I want my own Reaper. Called Nibbles :D

Stewart5
February 5th, 2010, 05:19 AM
The only film I thought ever did justice to game was Advent Children....mainly because it was a CG film made by the game company! I honestly can't think of a game movie I want to watch again, except maybe Wing Commander. Just for giggles.:D

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 5th, 2010, 05:41 AM
Too large a space battle?!? NEVER! :D
I did like how Normandy 2.0 got shown using it's new toys. I wish there were more of that, tho'. I still think Shepard should get his/her own FLEET. Pfft at Frigates...I want a Dreadnought (*drools at thought* And I dub thee 'Dies Irae'). :D

Actually I found this vid which shows just how awesome the battle at the end of Mass Effect was. I think Mass Effect 2 was the more personnel chapter, though there was some cool action between Normandy and the Collector Cruiser it was more about being on your own. The set up for Mass Effect 3 seems to suggest battles of apocalyptic proportions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICzoJTmXkJs&feature=related

As a bonus I found this scene, gives me the chills every time. “You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.” I think that might make a good sig :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_NAoNd4YyY&feature=related

Stewart5
February 5th, 2010, 05:59 AM
I'm goin to have to play ME and ME2, so I can actually join in the discussions on this thread:p

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 5th, 2010, 06:53 AM
I'm goin to have to play ME and ME2, so I can actually join in the discussions on this thread:p

Yes you really really should. However if you buy both now and play them constantly, then probably the next time we’d here from you would be in a couple of weeks. Still utterly worth it though :D

Stewart5
February 5th, 2010, 07:35 AM
They both on xbox?

gotthammer
February 5th, 2010, 08:46 AM
Yup. Both games are on the 360. Tho' I'd really recommend 'em on the PC (tends to look better).
Grab Dragon Age: Origins, too. :D

Re: end of ME vids
Yep. The space battle was quite awesome. I mean c'mon, it's a battle against a small fleet lead by a Cthulhu-spaceship-thingy! That's just pure win right there! :D

Oranos
February 5th, 2010, 12:47 PM
I don’t know, there is such a thing as too large a space battle :D. I like the fact in Mass Effect 2 it was just the Normandy taking on the Collectors, out there with no backup, the lone ship on a suicide mission.

It really wouldn't work any other way.


I did like how Normandy 2.0 got shown using it's new toys. I wish there were more of that, tho'. I still think Shepard should get his/her own FLEET. Pfft at Frigates...I want a Dreadnought

The Normandy's greatest tactical advantage has always been in its stealth capabilities. It's not a real warship, per se (until you start to upgrade her).

But it is the perfect ship for a Spectre. They're not exactly the type to take a fleet or a dreadnought into the fire. It draws far too much attention (and they tend to draw enough of that on their own).

That said, I'd just like to support my favorite gaming company by saying that you're pretty safe with anything made by BioWare. Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Knights of the Old Republic (1, not 2), Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, etc. And Star Wars: The Old Republic looks to carry on that great tradition.

gotthammer
February 5th, 2010, 01:31 PM
Yup, BioWare's actually a 'safe' choice when picking up an RPG. :D
I'd also recommend 'The Witcher' by a CD Projekt (a Polish dev).

Re: Normandy & Stealth: I know...but...but...I want me my kilometre(s) long warship bristling w/ enough guns and whatnot to lay waste to a planet (preferably one that looks like a flying cathedral...gah. I may no longer be a WH40k player, but the capital ships of the Imperium of Man are quite Awesome...visually, anyway :D ).
http://www.myfreewallpapers.net/fantasy/wallpapers/battlefleet-gothic.jpg

BTW, are you folks, who played ME2, happy w/ the way Normandy 2.0 looks? I mean, for the most part, it looks like the old one, but I thought that the extra pair of engines on the 'wings' looks a bit...off?

DigiFluid
February 5th, 2010, 02:11 PM
I am extremely tempted to grab Dragon Age, just because it's BioWare. But the next month in videogames is pretty heavy.

New unit DLC for Empire Total War on Monday (pre-purchased), Bioshock 2 on Tuesday, AvP on the 19th (pre-ordered), Napoleon Total War on the 26th (pre-ordered), Final Fantasy XIII on March 9th (pre-ordered). Plus all my regular TV shows--Archer, Clone Wars, Caprica, Spartacus, Big Love....

I don't think I have time to fit another 150+ hour game into that schedule :D

Oranos
February 5th, 2010, 02:22 PM
Yup, BioWare's actually a 'safe' choice when picking up an RPG. :D
I'd also recommend 'The Witcher' by a CD Projekt (a Polish dev).

When in doubt, go BioWare. Or so I always say.


BTW, are you folks, who played ME2, happy w/ the way Normandy 2.0 looks? I mean, for the most part, it looks like the old one, but I thought that the extra pair of engines on the 'wings' looks a bit...off?

I vastly prefer the SR-2. You may not always like the way they operate, but these Cerberus guys have style. They even gave me a fish tank. The damn Alliance never did anything like that for me.

gotthammer
February 6th, 2010, 03:27 AM
Any new word on the Mechwarrior 'reboot'?

As for the Total War series: I dunno. Empire felt a bit 'off', esp. when compared to Rome and even Medieval 2. And it's not the setting: I was actually happy to be able to play as Prussia. Maybe it's the lack of 'detail' in the main world's map? (not enough division in provinces?) Oh well, I don't really recall the specifics, it's been a while since I uninstalled it, not sure if I'll be getting Napoleon TW.

Re: the SR-2
I like the interior. Real spacey and all that (tho' I'm of the mind that it kinda felt like they were wasting space a bit...could have used more marines, in retrospect, after that 'incident'). It's just that I thought the extra set of engines made the 'wings' look a bit awkward.
Gah. The Fish Tank. My fishies died. :(
I can't wait to see the Hammerhead. :D

Ed
February 6th, 2010, 07:34 AM
Just popped in to comment on that epic battle gotthammer posted holy crap i have no idea how they will make that work game-play wise.

Video games story's have to sever the game-play that is the only restriction beyond that anything can be written though i think a a drought is coming for two reasons though its not here yet

mainly because of creative control the publishers are getting like studio exes and Indies get frozen out sd making your own game is hard; getting a writer to be subservient to game-play is hard they want to define the boundaries and with a game they simply can't (id be interested to talk to someone that isn't like this) then to top it off studios want you to pitch it as "like x but y" then they moan when it gets panned. this in effect stamps on innovation Nintendo aren't doing this but they cancel that out with their consoles mass of shovel-ware titles for every pikmin (seriously if you haven't got this and have a wii get it) there is a half dozen wii minigame collections.

User generated content will likely stave this off so much is possible for example the mod in my sig is built using HL2 despite looking more like something from the freespace 2 SCP. Look at the popularity of little big planet and that was a terrible sandbox utterly crap compared to say garrys mod only problem is studios are trying their best to stamp this out in favour of DLC this is the onle reason i still admire valve they back the comunity and in a stroke of genius use that as their DRM if you pirate you get left out notice the community stuff is built into steam as are half a dozen mods some teams even get took up and become part of valve creating some of the best games counter strike Gmod and portal for example.

For an example of the new way of doing stuff one i despise look at empire total war modding is heavily restricted for the sole reason of selling DRM do you really think no mod team would have made the new units and factions i used to like Creativ asembly not so much any more.

Another example of this is red faction gurella thats bade by V verry good game company but its ruined by tis publisher stuff had to be made less "strange" and it comes preloaded with the most intrusive DRM ive seen besides GTA 4 and a handfull of tray squaters at least with steam you cna put it offline and so not choke your computer up with it.

another example is spore tha was simplified for the masses and burdened with intrusive DRM ruining it imagine if that game was as moddable as half life 2 just whack on a steam or desura style community DRM and leave it at that pirates will crack it in a week either way.

Dam wall o text TL;DR i agree the medium has greater potential but its being ruined the same way film and TV are.

Edit: If you guys are interested in this sort of stuff id advise the escapist brilliant for these kinds of issues also has so brilliant comedy.

Oranos
February 6th, 2010, 08:33 AM
Re: the SR-2
I like the interior. Real spacey and all that (tho' I'm of the mind that it kinda felt like they were wasting space a bit...could have used more marines, in retrospect, after that 'incident'). It's just that I thought the extra set of engines made the 'wings' look a bit awkward.

EDI says it best, I think. She reminds Shepard that it's a Cerberus vessel, not an Alliance warship.

Cerberus has a ton of money to spend on whatever the heck they want. Their primary cover is even a starship manufacturing company, Cord-Hislop Aerospace. They can afford to provide their non-military crew a little comfort. And quite frankly, Shepard deserves it after all he's done.

The crew couldn't really be much bigger, however. A good portion of the Normandy is taken up by their (still) oversized drive core. Most of your "soldier" power will come from the team you're to recruit. Cerberus has basically given you the best of everything else.

As for the wings, I thought they looked fine. Actually, it was the wings that drove me crazy on the SR-1.


Gah. The Fish Tank. My fishies died. :(

And this is why so many people get Kelly to feed their fish. ;)

Or just stick with the Space Hamster. :p


I can't wait to see the Hammerhead. :D

Indeed. I'm also interested in Kasumi, the next DLC character. The news report on Illium indicates she's been a busy little thief. And she's pissed off the right people because she's attracted quite a bit of attention.

Stewart5
February 6th, 2010, 08:34 AM
Sorry, I just have to repeat myself

AVP Two Weeks Today!!!!!

Replicator Todd
February 6th, 2010, 11:13 AM
Any new word on the Mechwarrior 'reboot'?

As for the Total War series: I dunno. Empire felt a bit 'off', esp. when compared to Rome and even Medieval 2. And it's not the setting: I was actually happy to be able to play as Prussia. Maybe it's the lack of 'detail' in the main world's map? (not enough division in provinces?) Oh well, I don't really recall the specifics, it's been a while since I uninstalled it, not sure if I'll be getting Napoleon TW.

Re: the SR-2
I like the interior. Real spacey and all that (tho' I'm of the mind that it kinda felt like they were wasting space a bit...could have used more marines, in retrospect, after that 'incident'). It's just that I thought the extra set of engines made the 'wings' look a bit awkward.
Gah. The Fish Tank. My fishies died. :(
I can't wait to see the Hammerhead. :D

:eek: There is a Mechwarrior reboot!? OMG! I will return to gaming someday....

gotthammer
February 6th, 2010, 11:52 AM
Re: Mechwarrior
Well, I think it's still up in the air after a cease-and-desist was filed by Harmony Gold (gah) for the use of the Warhammer design (it's that old crappy issue again: Battletech vs. Robotech/Macross) in the most recent trailer. I hope it turns out well, tho', coz' that trailer was supposedly showing in-game graphics.
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/debut-trailer-mechwarrior/52619 - hmm, trailer's still up.

@ Ed: Depending on which version of the Legend of the Galactic Heroes game, I think it's rather simplified. You just take control of a set number of admirals each representing a fleet, or something like that. There's a mod made (and recently released) for 'Sins of a Solar Empire' based on that Anime series.
http://www.moddb.com/mods/legend-of-the-galactic-heroes
How the battles look like in the anime:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upS-pi-sOAQ


Re: Mass Effect 2
Something I found on BioWare's forums...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUgB30rA8v4
:valaanime06:

Ed
February 6th, 2010, 02:45 PM
so i take it the game is a large scale RTS that makes sense

I really miss 3d space sim's the industry seems to think the genre is dead so its down to mod teams as Indies dont have the resources to make game engines and few open source options exist.

gotthammer
February 6th, 2010, 02:58 PM
I'm not sure, when I found out there were no translations, I kinda lost interest in the LoGH games (except for the latest one...I want a copy of limited ed. coz' it has scale 'toys' of the 2 main ships, the Hyperion and the Brunhilde). I think they're turn-based, at least I think the old ones were.

Yep. I miss 3d space sims as well. No more Tie Fighter and Wing Commander type stuff ...there's still Freelancer, tho'. Haven't tried the X3 series yet. While not a sim, EVE Online kinda works as a 'substitute'.

rlr149
February 6th, 2010, 05:07 PM
Yep. I miss 3d space sims as well. No more Tie Fighter and Wing Commander type stuff ...there's still Freelancer, tho'. Haven't tried the X3 series yet. While not a sim, EVE Online kinda works as a 'substitute'.
EVE almost works as a substitute for life, takes a bit too much time unless you're lucky enough to be able to play it while 'working':cool:
X3 is pretty good, its a game you can ignore the story in and still play. and if you live in the uk its only £15 in game, with all expansions. its £30 on steam:confused:
if you're after a proper 'sim' then you need dosbox and Frontier:first encounters(think its free, might be a remade version that works on vista/7 too, old game though) worth trying just for the newtonian physics model.......................... you can slingshot round suns/planets, with skill:cool: "landing" on a planet is, a little "tricky".............. by "landing" i mean "crashing", and by "tricky" i mean "practically impossible". first game, took off from earth, couldn't not look at the moon on the way.............. got a very good look at the moon, from my own impact site. top tip: just because you point one way, doesn't mean you're "moving" that way;)


and re ME2, just finished and all i can think of is empire strikes back, which in itself is no bad thing, not quite as awesome as some have said though.

DigiFluid
February 6th, 2010, 08:11 PM
Kelly offered to feed my fish. They died.

So I had to go back to the Citadel to buy more fish.

gotthammer
February 6th, 2010, 11:37 PM
Stupid fish.

@rlr149: Empire Strikes Back? Hmm...I guess I can see the similarities, tho' the end kinda sets it apart 'feel-wise' (i.e., the Empire 'won' in ESB...so if you were 'pro-Alliance' it would've been kinda sad. I loved that movie coz' I was pro-Empire :D )
hmm...ya, I've heard of Frontier, and Elite, too, but I never got around to playing 'em. Maybe I'll give them a look...when I'm in that 'retro game' mood again (recently, that involved playing Darklands).

another thing I encountered on BioWare's forums: http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/1036262
:valaanime06:

Ed
February 7th, 2010, 05:12 AM
Ive been getting my space sim fix off mods and indies also this site good for space sims
http://www.spacesimcentral.com/forum.html

Some of the free space mods are awesome just the media packs which up the graphics make it better than most commercial stuff released now.

Also what's been lacking since halo is proper arcade FPS where you hoard weapons and use medkits no regen health something like jedi academy

I need to get into bioware RPGs which is best to start with?

gotthammer
February 7th, 2010, 08:11 AM
re: BioWare RPGs.
It depends. Do you prefer/want 'current gen' graphics? Or do you mind stuff that's a bit older?
The Baldur's Gate series is a good one. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic is a 'classic'. I think Neverwinter Nights still has an active modding community, so that alone could make it worth your while to get.
I loved Dragon Age: Origins (it could have been better, but it was still great...took me around 110 hrs. for my first playthrough), as well as Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 (disregard the naysayers saying that ME2 isn't an RPG :D ).

re: space sims
thanks for the link...I'll just save it for now, coz' I might get tempted. :P

re: Jedi Academy
I miss that one. I had fun playing that on LAN, too. *sigh* Dual sabres FTW! :D I also enjoyed the Battlefront games (tho' they weren't as fun as Jedi Academy)

re: space RTS
I'm suddenly reminded of the Homeworld series. Now that was an epic story, and the gameplay was great, too. Real 3D warfare. If only EVE were free... (I could afford it, but it seems wasteful since I don't play all the time...I really wish the skills progression weren't entirely 'time-based'. *sighs at the thought of my NavApoc rusting in the hangar*)

Oranos
February 7th, 2010, 08:56 AM
I need to get into bioware RPGs which is best to start with?

If you don't mind the fact that the sequel is done by Obsidian (and is nowhere as good as the first), I typically point people in the direction of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. KotOR stands on its however, so you can probably get by without playing the piece of junk that is the second.

Speaking of KotOR, what does everyone think of the sequel(s) returning to BioWare's hands with Star Wars: The Old Republic? I'm not a huge fan of MMOs (and in no way consider myself an expert), but it looks pretty decent from what I've seen.

You know my feelings about Obsidian, but who do you think it was better off with?

gotthammer
February 7th, 2010, 09:57 AM
IMHO, it started w/ BioWare, and it should have stayed w/ them. *shrugs*
Then again, I barely remember specifics for the KotOR2...maybe I'll give it another go again someday (gah...I seem to be saying that a lot on this thread).

As for SW: TOR: Hmm. MMO. From what I've read, it's going to be single-player/solo-player friendly...so I'll probably check it out, too, but I tend to want to stay away from MMOs (as most of the pay-to-play MMOs I've spent on were disappointing: Age of Conan, Tabula Rasa <I liked it...but it's gone>, Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning...the only good MMO that I think I'll one day resubscribe to is EVE Online).
TOR also has a rather 'different' art style...and I'm not so sure I'm happy w/ that. Of course, since it's a BioWare game, my assumption is that, despite aesthetic 'shortcomings' (which DA:O had), it will probably have, at the very least, a decent story/setting and/or compelling, well written characters.
Personally, I'd have preferred a single-player-only KotOR 3. :D

DigiFluid
February 7th, 2010, 10:01 AM
KOTOR2 was alright, if you install the Restored Content Mod. Definitely not as good as the first one though.

I salivate over The Old Republic every day, this will be the game that breaks me of my MMO dislike.

gotthammer
February 7th, 2010, 02:11 PM
I too am curious about SW:TOR, but it's probably my bro who'll be shelling out cash for that. (EVE Onlines's FPS tie-in, Dust 514 is the other 'MMO' I'm waiting for) I'm sure I'll try it, but I'm not really in that 'I can't wait for it!'-mood. (the 'prequel trilogy' really kinda turned me off Star Wars, considering I was a fan prior to those) :D

random thought: 2 of my favourite Sci-fi shows, Farscape and Firefly, featured an unarmed space vessel (namely Moya and Serenity)...was there a game w/ a similar feel/setting?
I mean, Wing Commander: Privateer and Freelancer still had you fly combat missions (heck, you couldn't advance the plot if you didn't fight).

a bit from Mass Effect: Been playing ME1 again and saw that dreadnoughts are just 800m - 1km long? Huh. (amusing considering one of the above youtube links I posted, the one w/ a massive space battle, featured thousands of ships that are, I think, at least half a kilometer long. Them Japanese and their definition of 'epic', huh? :D )

Oranos
February 7th, 2010, 06:00 PM
KOTOR2 was alright, if you install the Restored Content Mod. Definitely not as good as the first one though.

The only good thing about KotOR 2 was the return of HK-47 as a squadmate. That's about where it ended for me (and really the only reason I played through till the end). Just my take, though.

Stewart5
February 7th, 2010, 07:46 PM
.....11 days 'til AVP.....

gotthammer
February 8th, 2010, 12:52 AM
Hehehe. Hmm. I hope my system can handle it (min specs says so...but will it be smooth? hehehe).
Smartgun = win :D
(I wish more games had guns like that: MG42/MG3-based MGs)
I'd love to hear that scanner thingy again, too (I think 'Aliens' was the only Alien film I really liked/enjoyed).

Vasquez: "Let's ROCK!" :weiranime34:

Stewart5
February 8th, 2010, 06:17 AM
"Game over Man, game over!!"

gotthammer
February 8th, 2010, 12:20 PM
"Game over Man, game over!!"

:valaanime06:

I really should get my own copy of that movie...

BTW, were the Beserkers ever featured/shown in Aliens or AvP games? IMHO, it'd be cool to play as one (it'd be a bit like 'god moding', but mowing down a hive all alone would be kinda cool :D )

Stewart5
February 8th, 2010, 02:31 PM
Nope, they were only in Aliens and AVP graphic Novels...:(

gotthammer
February 8th, 2010, 02:56 PM
A pity, then. I'd really like to see one in action. I hope it'll make it's way into an AvP game someday (the version as drawn by Dave Dorman). It'd be a cool 'easter egg' or 'unlockable'.

http://www.davedorman.com/i/art/aliens/tribes/tribe3.jpg

Stewart5
February 8th, 2010, 03:26 PM
Wait..... I may be getting mixed up. The suit of M.A.X armour, with the guy inside getting pumped full of drugs whn goes mad and kills things.....?

rlr149
February 8th, 2010, 03:27 PM
Wait..... I may be getting mixed up. The suit of M.A.X armour, with the guy inside getting pumped full of drugs whn goes mad and kills things.....?

PS veteran?

DigiFluid
February 8th, 2010, 03:31 PM
I have no idea where this thread is right now, but talk of drug injections making you go mad makes me think of Bane from Batman.

gotthammer
February 8th, 2010, 03:41 PM
Wait..... I may be getting mixed up. The suit of M.A.X armour, with the guy inside getting pumped full of drugs whn goes mad and kills things.....?

Yup. :D
I had the Aliens: Berserker comics (not all, I think...tho' I think I read a friend's collection, I forget) and a few pages from Aliens: Tribe (from a UK Aliens mag, I think), and I liked the concept. Nothing really new, but still amusing (esp. that bit w/ the soldier clinging to the back of the MAX, if memory serves).
I mean, it's pretty close to what a Space Marine Dreadnought is, right? (remove sedatives, then throw into combat. In the case of the MAX, tho', it's nutjobs or convicts, right?)

Stewart5
February 8th, 2010, 03:43 PM
Gottenhammer, can you remember if the robot was part of a kill team who went in, used a trooper as bait to plant a locator?

gotthammer
February 8th, 2010, 03:46 PM
Gottenhammer, can you remember if the robot was part of a kill team who went in, used a trooper as bait to plant a locator?

Yup. That would be the Aliens: Berserker comics, particularly the first issue.
Not sure if Aliens:Tribe did something similar (I barely recall it, and I only had a few pages worth).

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo243/3289275/00-FrontCover.jpg

Stewart5
February 8th, 2010, 03:56 PM
Yea, they made it into AVP volume 1 and had their Aliens stories put in volume 4. I think it would make a good boss fight as the predator in the new game. Or even as the alien.

gotthammer
February 8th, 2010, 04:04 PM
Re: a MAX as a boss-fight
For the Predator, perhaps. (would a Pred's stealth work against a MAX's scanner? then again, the Pred's shoulder mounted weapon would probably be enough against a MAX, seeing as they're primary targets are 'aliens' who don't have ranged weapons)
For the Alien...not unless the Alien has multiple lives (and doesn't the MAX have a 'failsafe'? Or was that a separate device?). :D

Stewart5
February 8th, 2010, 04:11 PM
Yea, it does. But that is why it would be a boss fight, gotta find a way round it. I can't wait for the game!

gotthammer
February 9th, 2010, 04:53 AM
Hehehe. I can't wait for...a lot of things, really. *wishes he had cash for a PS3 AND upgrades for the PC...choices choices*
Other than AvP, what else looks promising?
While I'd rather not go for another MMO, have any of you been following info/news regarding Funcom's (in particular, The Longest Journey/Dreamfall's Ragnar Tornquist) upcoming 'The Secret World'?

Stewart5
February 9th, 2010, 05:04 AM
Not heard about the secret world, but a mate let me play Mass Effect 2....it's AWESOME. I'm going into town right now to buy both. No, really, I'm on the train.

DigiFluid
February 9th, 2010, 05:10 AM
Mass Effect 2 ftw

Also
Today: Bioshock 2
Feb 26: Napoleon Total War
Mar 9: Final Fantasy XIII

gotthammer
February 9th, 2010, 05:31 AM
Hmm...
Not sure about BioShock 2. My bro liked it, but I didn't really get into it.
As for Napoleon: TW: I'll wait for reviews first as I wasn't too happy w/ Empire: TW. I would like nothing better than to thrash Napoleon's Grande Armee w/ the reconstituted Prussian forces under Blucher, tho'. :D

FFXIII: not really big on JRPGs...there was a time I wanted to play 'em, but, since I didn't have a console (the only console I had for a considerable amount of time was a Nintendo Family Comp in the 80s...), I kinda lost interest. Maybe WHEN I pick up a PS3...(I really should... :D )

Stewart5
February 9th, 2010, 05:55 AM
This new FF is meant to be on Xbox as well, or so I heard. I think.......

DigiFluid
February 9th, 2010, 06:04 AM
It is, I have it preordered :)

Stewart5
February 9th, 2010, 06:15 AM
I love FF, especially 7 and 8. 9 wasn't too good, 10 was okay and from there they just haven't been the same. I resort to playing 7 and 8 over and over, because it hurts my soul to think of X-2, and 12 didn't salvage as much as I'd hoped it would. :(:(

GuHNDoi
February 9th, 2010, 06:26 AM
AvP! Just look at how sweet this game looks


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7pBDx45hdk&feature=channel


_________________________


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN1F1XRzJ5k&feature=channel


_________________________


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GljJpco0VZI&feature=channel


_________________________


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnc81ASjeoo&feature=channel


_________________________



INFESTATION. One player starts the match as an Alien Hunter and their task is to kill the Marine prey. When a Marine player is killed they will join the Alien Hunter team and help to kill off any remaining Marines.

Awesome!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZscVvFF4XA&feature=channel


_______________

Killmoves!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgN2ChA49N8&feature=channel

This video feature is pretty cool! First time trying it out.:)


_________________________

What about the Aliens Colonial Marines game? I heard this is on hold or something, until after AvP comes out. I first read about it, around Feb 2008. Along time before I heard of this new AvP. Aliens Colonial Marines, I want to play, since its focused on playing as only marines, a storyline fitting with the movie canon and Co-op campaign (1-4 players).

The we need another Predator game! One that has a story that continues or preceeds the first two movies.:)

Final Fantasy XIII. I will probably get it. I played from, VII, VIII, IX, X, X-2, XII (haven't completed it yet! It's on been on hold since 2007! LOL!)

Man! Watching those Mass Effect 2 vids makes me really want to play it! Mass Effect was a brilliant game!

Ed
February 9th, 2010, 06:50 AM
How much are people here into modding its brilliant yet incredibly fringe one im looking forward to is Dispora

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsiCWduERFc
Its a split off of beyond the red line and it isnt evident in video but it really feels like how you imagine flying a viper would they have the mechanics down perfectly i cant wait will be intresting to play a space sim with no lasers sheilds aliens ect.

@bioware rpgs
I'll give kotor a go the SW fanboy in me is anoyed at them ****ing on cannon though

I'm not looking forward to ToR i hate MMOs and i dislike that period in SW my ideal SW games would be Jedi knight 4 and an X-wing game post batle of endor (maybe have the main thre trilogy battles but after that go EU)

I never liked battlefront that concept is awsome dogfights and shoot out together but cant work with established IPs as asymmetry of factions is a massive headache in level design best attempt at it is ES (mod i map for so i am massively biased)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWmw1u2to5M

DigiFluid
February 9th, 2010, 07:01 AM
I'll give kotor a go the SW fanboy in me is anoyed at them ****ing on cannon though
...what? KOTOR defined that period.

Oranos
February 9th, 2010, 10:39 AM
...what? KOTOR defined that period.

This.

KotOR is canon.

Ed
February 9th, 2010, 10:52 AM
This.

KotOR is canon.

Warning rage about to ocour

in SW cannon it goes
Films>radio broadcasts> tv shows>books>comics>games

KOTOR crapped on cannon in a number of ways mainly in relation to founding of the republic tech level especially healing tech and space ships list goes on i will go look for a full list the worst part is its the first bit of extended universe alot of people see but it ignored a lot of things it defined the time period by ignoring everything and going earlier so everything between kotor and ep1 no longer makes any sense at all

DigiFluid
February 9th, 2010, 11:04 AM
Warning rage about to ocour

in SW cannon it goes
Films>radio broadcasts> tv shows>books>comics>games

KOTOR crapped on cannon in a number of ways mainly in relation to founding of the republic tech level especially healing tech and space ships list goes on i will go look for a full list the worst part is its the first bit of extended universe alot of people see but it ignored a lot of things it defined the time period by ignoring everything and going earlier so everything between kotor and ep1 no longer makes any sense at all
Well....you're kind of wrong, about most of that.

For one, games are most certainly not at the bottom of the canon totem pole:
G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie).[1]

T-canon[2], or Television Canon[3], refers to the canon level comprising the feature film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the two television shows Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series.[4][5] It was devised recently in order to define a status above the C-Level canon, as confirmed by Chee[6].

C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be;[7] they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.

S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.

N is Non-Canon. What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm. Information cut from canon, deleted scenes, or from canceled Star Wars works falls into this category as well, unless another canonical work references it and it is declared canon.

Secondly: SW galaxy technology levels are static. They always have been, they always will be.

Third: BioWare was given a choice, by Lucasarts, whether to make a game in the prequel era and have to follow limitations set out by LA or else make one 4000 years prior to the movies and have a free hand to make what they would. Besides that, it didn't really ignore anything that was made prior to it.

Fourth: how on Earth does KOTOR, 4000 years before the movies, have any bearing on how Episode I "makes sense"?

Ed
February 9th, 2010, 11:25 AM
Well....you're kind of wrong, about most of that.

For one, games are most certainly not at the bottom of the canon totem pole:
G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie).[1]

T-canon[2], or Television Canon[3], refers to the canon level comprising the feature film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the two television shows Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series.[4][5] It was devised recently in order to define a status above the C-Level canon, as confirmed by Chee[6].

C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be;[7] they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.

S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.

N is Non-Canon. What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm. Information cut from canon, deleted scenes, or from canceled Star Wars works falls into this category as well, unless another canonical work references it and it is declared canon.

Secondly: SW galaxy technology levels are static. They always have been, they always will be.

Third: BioWare was given a choice, by Lucasarts, whether to make a game in the prequel era and have to follow limitations set out by LA or else make one 4000 years prior to the movies and have a free hand to make what they would. Besides that, it didn't really ignore anything that was made prior to it.

Fourth: how on Earth does KOTOR, 4000 years before the movies, have any bearing on how Episode I "makes sense"?

No not ep1 the EU events between ep1 and kotor and

Also tech was never static until kotor, compare a clone wars starfighter and capship to a XJ5 X-wing and a mon mothma class star destroyer and you will see notable advancement over less than 100 years and then your meant to believe there was zero advancement in 4000 years.

the order i posted is within C cannon for example clone wars the film>clone wars the series>clone wars novels> Clone wars comics>clone wars the game if a contradiction occurs that is how it is settled or at least it was when i still followed star wars EU which granted the last thing i got was shaterpoints.

Oranos
February 9th, 2010, 11:38 AM
No not ep1 the EU events between ep1 and kotor and

Also tech was never static until kotor, compare a clone wars starfighter and capship to a XJ5 X-wing and a mon mothma class star destroyer and you will see notable advancement over less than 100 years and then your meant to believe there was zero advancement in 4000 years.

I'm sorry. Have you heard of the Dark Ages? Just because technological advances weren't made in this time period doesn't mean it's not part of our history. There's actually some interesting parallels between the events of KotOR and the Dark Ages.


the order i posted is within C cannon for example clone wars the film>clone wars the series>clone wars novels> Clone wars comics>clone wars the game if a contradiction occurs that is how it is settled or at least it was when i still followed star wars EU which granted the last thing i got was shaterpoints.

I'm pretty sure DigiFluid got it right.

gotthammer
February 9th, 2010, 11:51 AM
*shrugs*
After the Thrawn trilogy, and several more trilogies, I kinda stopped reading the EU stuff. (hmm...I guess that was sometime in the 90s? :D )
IMHO, after the 'prequel' movies, I kinda stopped caring about what was or wasn't canon. The Old Republic period (i.e., KotOR, TOR, etc.) is a rather neat setting, as it can be quite epic (as opposed to the more 'subdued' Force abilities shown in the movies. I recall one of the Dark Horse comics, Tales of the Jedi, I think, depicting a Sith Lord in history detonating a binary star system or something). I mean, several thousand years can provide for much leeway...so I don't see anything wrong w/ it.

As for tech: who knows, really? Maybe appearances or designs just change, but the base tech is relatively the same. I do get the point that perhaps some of the ships look too close to some established design (case in point: the recent pre-rendered cinematic for TOR showing ships that resembled Imperial cruisers and TIE fighters), but maybe it's just a pattern in history or for that group to use that style (i.e., the Sith). *shrugs*
As I may have mentioned, I wasn't too keen on the art style they picked for TOR: I prefer the Tales of the Jedi style: asymmetric ships, lightsabres with what I think are power cables and rather rough looking hilts, etc.

I too would like another SW space sim. Another X-Wing or Tie Fighter would be super. Or perhaps something that allows you to command a capital ship and/or a fleet (not like Empire at War, mind you, but an actual capship/fleet 'sim'. That and SW: Rebellion > Empire at War :D ). *sighs and dreams of commanding an Imperial Star Destroyer*

Hmm. Maybe that would be a better Stargate game: instead of a pure FPS (the upcoming one, SG: Resistance, which, as I've stated before, I think looks bad), why not a capship/fleet sim (304? ancient vessel? Hatak?) w/ option to partake in fighter combat (302s, gliders, etc.), then give it an integrated FPS/Shooter-based RPG engine so you can still do 'stargatey' stuff on worlds. :D

Ed
February 9th, 2010, 04:37 PM
I'm sorry. Have you heard of the Dark Ages? Just because technological advances weren't made in this time period doesn't mean it's not part of our history. There's actually some interesting parallels between the events of KotOR and the Dark Ages.



I'm pretty sure DigiFluid got it right.

the cannon thing i posted was within C cannon the other layers are irelevant here a dark age sounds goo if thats been written in kudos to who ever did it that way it does sort of make sense heck you could even fanwank away the desighn reapearing in the same way some modern stuff has greek and Roman style to it

@gotthamer

you know you could do some text editing in X-wing games to make every single ship flyable that was quite neat although capship guns all shot forward it was cool pointing a star destroyer at things

Stargate wont work as a video game i don't think the Stargate looks awesome but as a mapper i can tell you it would be an utter headache level design wise as for ship the asymmetrical nature of the franchise makes that hard as much as i hate when ts done a kotor style prequel about the grand alliance would be the most viable

gotthammer
February 9th, 2010, 05:05 PM
Hmm. Well, a dedicated cap ship sim would still be different (I mean, I'd like to see some interior bits, say the Star Destroyer's bridge or it's bays - kinda like what you have in Mass Effect).

As for a Stargate game that's mostly ship-based: I say give it to CCP (of EVE Online fame) or BioWare, and I'd think only good can come of that. :D

Ed
February 10th, 2010, 05:12 AM
Din anyone here ever play empires mod basicly one player is a commander and has an RTS veiw and interface the rest of his team are the units the units cap resource points and build structures that the com places he also coordinates squad leaders and reseach i would love to see this in a space battle settgin

the com would be a rear admiral with station kind of empire at war ish and the players would fly tactical ships eternal silence style currently no game engine can reliably do a player count that high but some of the newer ones might

Also i want to see someone make a game engine designed around scale not graphics and physics go with game cube level graphics and just go for sheer scale number of players amount of stuff on screen ect

gotthammer
February 10th, 2010, 11:26 AM
I played the Empires mod a little (it's my lil' bro who really plays w/ the Steam/Valve stuff...I personally don't like using Steam), and it's concept was nice, but I wasn't too happy w/ the execution.

@Ed: Hmm. Nice idea, but I'd rather not have an RTS (we've already had a really good space RTS in the form of games like the Homeworld series).
I'd rather you were in command of a cap ship, w/ the option to build it up to a small fleet/strike force, but all the resource stuff happens somewhere else (something like a base of ops somewhere): so 'main game' would be simulation and real-time tactical, but there's a strategic element where you refit/repair/upgrade your ship and/or fleet. Something like that.
I'm trying to remember if I played something even remotely close...maybe a Star Trek game? It wasn't Wing Commander Armada, either...gah, I can't remember.

Tie Fighter had something that I kinda liked: the pre-mission briefings and the 'feel' that you were part of something. (better than what X-Wing had, IMHO). I guess that's part of what I'm recalling.

Ed
February 10th, 2010, 01:00 PM
i agree empires execution is patchy but i admire the attempt at innovation i think it would work better in space as that set up sufers from imbalances in tanks VS infantry

Did you ever play battleships forever its a free indy game where you micromanage small fleets its 2d but the level of micromanagement is imenst all the way down to individual turrets
http://www.wyrdysm.com/games.php
Its is an RTS but tis the closes ive seen

I think i get what you mean now just focused on one ship i cant imagine how that would be executed but there is definately potential

Oranos
February 10th, 2010, 01:17 PM
As for a Stargate game that's mostly ship-based: I say give it to CCP (of EVE Online fame) or BioWare, and I'd think only good can come of that. :D

But it would never happen. For the latter, at least. Star Wars: The Old Republic notwithstanding, BioWare has moved on to develop their own original and independent universes and franchises. That they were even working on this (and, yes, I know they've been at it for a while now) still surprised the hell out of me. If anyone was continuing with KotOR, I would have bet money it would have been Obsidian. I guess it's a good thing I don't bet.

gotthammer
February 10th, 2010, 01:44 PM
But it would never happen. For the latter, at least. Star Wars: The Old Republic notwithstanding, BioWare has moved on to develop their own original and independent universes and franchises. That they were even working on this (and, yes, I know they've been at it for a while now) still surprised the hell out of me. If anyone was continuing with KotOR, I would have bet money it would have been Obsidian. I guess it's a good thing I don't bet.

One can dream/hope. :D (heck, I'm still hoping for more SG-1 and am waiting for the Farscape webisodes, after all :D )

@Ed:
for a game focusing on a cap ship w/ fleet elements, something akin to the control scheme of Homeworld would probably be apt (Star Wars: Rebellion also had a 3D tactical component, but I think it was a bit sluggish). But I'd like it to be more like a simulation so that would probably mean managing (w/ the option to delegate) on other aspects. Just throwing ideas, mind you. I guess one of the older Star Trek games is what I kinda had in mind (the one that also has away teams, I think...gah I forget, honestly).

Oranos
February 10th, 2010, 01:56 PM
One can dream/hope. :D

Oh, believe me. There's nothing wrong with either of those.

And nobody would be better at it than BioWare. I think they tell stories better than anyone.

gotthammer
February 12th, 2010, 01:38 PM
Ragnar Tornquist can pull off a great story (as is evident in The Longest Journey and it's sequel, Dreamfall). I just hope he can pull off the same for his upcoming project, the MMO 'The Secret World'.
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/ragnar-tornquist-the-secret/47696 (Ragnar Tornquist Interview)
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/debut-cinematic-the-secret/47571 (Debut Cinematic)
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/cg-demon-the-secret/55488 (2nd Cinematic)
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/kingsmouth-location-the-secret/61502 (Kingsmouth Location teaser)

I was browsing through one of my favourite comic series recently (thanks to a discussion on the Mass Effect boards...), and thought how I'd loved a more 'involved' combat game that encompasses strategy (at least operational level), all the way down to being the guy firing the gun/s (think Mass Effect, but also being the one to coordinate stuff like logistics, troop movements, deployment zones, and even driving/flying the transport/s).
Something close would be 'Emperor of the Fading Suns', but w/ prettier graphics and the aforementioned 'Mass Effect' gameplay. :D
(yes...too much time on my hands thinking about stuff like this :P )
It'd be nice if you could use, and do, stuff like this (spoiler'd for size):
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b22/neokensei/ME2%20Screens/gravtank01.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b22/neokensei/ME2%20Screens/gravtank02.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b22/neokensei/ME2%20Screens/Iron01.jpg
It's from Christopher Moeller's 'Iron Empires: Faith Conquers'. 3rd pic is cover art, the first two are from inside...everything's painted.
There's an RPG for it, too (pen-and-paper, called 'Burning Empires').

Ed
February 12th, 2010, 03:22 PM
The closest in epcness ive ever played to that is capship battles in ES

A boarding action in ES is the most epic space to infantry thing ive seen in video games its hard to get more epic than flying an interceptor at the enemy flight deck bailing out just before you hit the ground timed as such you launch across sewing napalm all over the enemy defence clearing gunships to enter and drop off the rest of the team the seamless transition is just incredibly epic

what i want to see now is surface to orbit transition the thing would have to compensate for projectiles as well as ships but it would be worth it imagine all those elements in one battle thing is on-line games can handle the player counts now it could be done.

Stewart5
February 12th, 2010, 03:28 PM
1 Week to go...

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 16th, 2010, 06:20 AM
Heh this thread needs a shot in the arm. Having just finished Bioshock 2 I can say without a shadow of a doubt that it was one of the most excellent scifi worlds ever created. The originality and the brilliance of the story cannot be understated and there were more clever and original ideas than you’d find in 20 Hollywood films.

Also on a side note Garrowan, you’ll be pleased to here that AVP has been getting good reviews as well. :)

Stewart5
February 16th, 2010, 06:57 AM
I know! And its out 2mrrw! Hahahaha! Hahaha!

gotthammer
February 16th, 2010, 08:31 AM
ooh. ok. gotta call the local game store tomorrow, then. :D

Stewart5
February 16th, 2010, 08:53 AM
Ah, see, I have friends in high places, so am getting it on US release instead of European.........

DigiFluid
February 16th, 2010, 10:10 AM
Heh this thread needs a shot in the arm. Having just finished Bioshock 2 I can say without a shadow of a doubt that it was one of the most excellent scifi worlds ever created. The originality and the brilliance of the story cannot be understated and there were more clever and original ideas than you’d find in 20 Hollywood films.
I'm actually pretty disappointed with it, to be honest. I loved the first game, but I've found the second one....boring. At best.

gotthammer
February 16th, 2010, 01:03 PM
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/debut-teaser-world-of/61916
cute 'teaser' vid for a tank-based MMO (which is apparently free to play?)

http://worldoftanks.com/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGozEPQ5aUE
Looks interesting.
It's definitely NOT a SIM. (Hehehe. Firing on the move on a WW2 tank, eh? Well, I think some crews were able to pull it off...butl not w/out losing accuracy. Didn't Wittmann fire on the move when he charged the Brits on the road near Villers-Bocage?)
The models look nice, tho', but I don't like how it highlights your target. (then again...it's not a Sim. *sighs* :D )

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 16th, 2010, 02:16 PM
I'm actually pretty disappointed with it, to be honest. I loved the first game, but I've found the second one....boring. At best.

Well I found it improved in every way, especially the story. The running central theme of fatherhood was great and I thought it really explored the concept of parenthood.

DigiFluid
February 16th, 2010, 02:43 PM
Well I found it improved in every way, especially the story. The running central theme of fatherhood was great and I thought it really explored the concept of parenthood.
It's the gameplay that bugs me. Instead of, say, improving on the first game....they stick you in a Big Daddy suit (which was the lamest part of the first game) and have you pick up crappy weapons (instead of the cool ones in the first game) to fight off the unchanged enemies of the first game. The only thing different is the occasional fight with Big Sisters who, though beatable, are a pain in the ass to fight because you're in the Big Daddy suit and move so bloody slowly.

Oh well, at least it's not as bad of a sequel as Modern Warfare 2 was. Glad I sold that piece of crap.

Aliens vs Predator is a ton of fun though. I've only gotten in a bit over an hour of play in the alien campaign, but it's pretty damn cool. I'm a little annoyed that there's a stuttering glitch when it's loading resources, and there's a gamma/lighting settings problem (both issues are apparently nVidia related because apparently Rebellion didn't bother to fix it before release =/). But those aside, it's a lot of fun :D

Stewart5
February 16th, 2010, 02:47 PM
Only 12 hours til I get my copy! Whoo!

DigiFluid
February 16th, 2010, 03:13 PM
It's a lot of fun. Some really bloody annoying bugs though:

- the contrast slider is seriously bugged on nVidia cards, you have to leave it on default or it goes....bad
- DX11 options seem to be disabled as "not available" for a lot of people even if you have it
- the game stutters really badly whenever you go into new areas and loads resources
- in the Steam version, when the Steam Cloud goes down you can't load your savegame

Stewart5
February 16th, 2010, 03:48 PM
Ah'l be gettin an xbox version....who the hell knows how THATs going down....:lol:

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 17th, 2010, 09:07 AM
Ah'l be gettin an xbox version....who the hell knows how THATs going down....:lol:

Don’t come back crying when your 360 gets red ring of death and fails. We’ll all be laughing :D

Stewart5
February 17th, 2010, 01:30 PM
Newer model, not failed me once in the last 2 months:P. AVP is AWESOME! I don't care if the graphics aren't thd best. It's great fun!

DigiFluid
February 17th, 2010, 01:38 PM
All this RROD whining.... ;) I've had my 360 for a year and a half and no problems.

I wish AvP wasn't so bloody buggy =/ Makes it really frustrating to play. Hell of a lot of fun when it is working though :D

Stewart5
February 17th, 2010, 01:55 PM
Av not had any bugs yet....but a wish I had iron sights.....

gotthammer
February 17th, 2010, 03:45 PM
oh, you can't aim through the sights? nuts.
Btw, how are the gun sounds? Are they 'faithful' to those in Aliens? I saw this video claiming otherwise (particularly for the Smartgun: the sound is deeper?)

dang...the local store won't have it 'til Tuesday. :(

Oh well, more time to play Mass Effect. :D

Stewart5
February 17th, 2010, 03:57 PM
The video lies. The weapons, aliens and preds sound amazin. They may not have spent ages on the graphics, but the sound is brilliant.

gotthammer
February 17th, 2010, 04:02 PM
Hehe. Well, if it's not to my liking, some 'purist' out there will probably make a mod for it. :D
It does look and sound great, tho', from the gameplay vids I've seen. Esp. the 'beeping' of the motion detector...I miss that sound. (I really need to watch 'Aliens' again) :D

Btw: No gun-mounted lights? Just those flares?

Stewart5
February 17th, 2010, 04:10 PM
Gun mounted flashlight AND flares.

Stewart5
February 17th, 2010, 04:19 PM
As the Alien, you can 'harvest' any civilian you dont kill - basically, pin it down until a facdhugger gets them

DigiFluid
February 17th, 2010, 04:21 PM
As the Alien, you can 'harvest' any civilian you dont kill - basically, pin it down until a facdhugger gets them
I love doing that. Watch out though, every once in a while one of them will suicide bomb you. That was....unexpected the first time it happened. Scared the hell out of me lol

gotthammer
February 17th, 2010, 04:23 PM
As the Alien, you can 'harvest' any civilian you dont kill - basically, pin it down until a facdhugger gets them

Heh. Cool. Not that I think I'd be playing an Alien much. :D (I got dizzy when I used them in the older AvP games. Heck, most of the old FPSs, like Wolfenstein and Doom-like games made me dizzy...not so much the newer FPSs, like CoD:MW/WaW, tho')
Colonial Marines FTW! :D

Stewart5
February 17th, 2010, 04:39 PM
Trust me, you cannot NOT go the Alien. Its awesome! Yea, Digi, happened to me and one civvie pulled a pistol when he saw me coming and shot himself

gotthammer
February 18th, 2010, 01:46 AM
http://www.commandandconquer.com/classic
Seems like some of the old C&C stuff is free for download (to promote C&C 4, I guess).
That and they're giving away a PC (and, as usual, I'm not eligible coz' of where I am :D )

Ed
February 18th, 2010, 02:16 AM
I really need to buy mass effect at some point how big are the two games im starting to run low on HD space i may have to start deleting other games.
@gotthamer what engine is that tank game on also neat fact i noticed from the vid those tanks are scaled right down to provide bigger battlefeilds.

Also I though this weeks ENN was spot on in relation to the state of the industry

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escapist-news-network/1464-EAs-Corporate-Vision-On-Track

Stewart5
February 18th, 2010, 03:38 AM
Yahtzee is the sh*t!!!! He is sooooo funny!!!

gotthammer
February 18th, 2010, 06:25 AM
I really need to buy mass effect at some point how big are the two games im starting to run low on HD space i may have to start deleting other games.
@gotthamer what engine is that tank game on also neat fact i noticed from the vid those tanks are scaled right down to provide bigger battlefeilds.

Also I though this weeks ENN was spot on in relation to the state of the industry

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escapist-news-network/1464-EAs-Corporate-Vision-On-Track
Re: Mass Effect
Yeah. Both games are taking up around 22 GB on my HD (10 GB for ME1 w/ the BDtS DLC, and 12GB for ME2). Maybe you could get a 1 Terabyte HD? It's around 130 USD, or less, where I'm at (maybe cheaper if isn't portable).

Re: World of Tanks
Dunno about the engine (barely any info on the site). As for the scale: I didn't notice much (may have not been paying that much attention), tho' it did look 'ok' (that and there weren't any people for comparison. I mean, I've been next to WW2 tanks like the Panther so if I see people next to one, I think I could see if the scale is close...unless they scaled down the people as well :valaanime06: ).

Re: ENN
Hehehe. Funny. I like the EA sucking less bit and the closing jabs at Molyneux (really? were the Fable games that bad? I think I only got to play one...). :D

gotthammer
February 18th, 2010, 06:38 AM
Yahtzee is the sh*t!!!! He is sooooo funny!!!

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1461-Mass-Effect-2 :D

Stewart5
February 18th, 2010, 06:45 AM
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1461-Mass-Effect-2 :D

already seen it. It's AWESOME....I laughed so much, and in the middle of my Uni library....:D:D:D

gotthammer
February 18th, 2010, 08:24 AM
already seen it. It's AWESOME....I laughed so much, and in the middle of my Uni library....:D:D:D

Here's another ME2 related article. Very good read, IMHO.
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=7004

Oranos
February 18th, 2010, 10:36 AM
Here's another ME2 related article. Very good read, IMHO.
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=7004

You mean besides the fact that whoever is writing the article is an idiot that isn't capable of research or actually thinking things through? Did he (or she) even play either game? I promptly facepalmed at several points.

While he or she makes a few good points--a few things I even wondered about myself--the vast majority of it can easily be explained away (and some of it is even in the damn game).

I wish some people would take the time to think before they write. Instead of spitting out nonsense.

At least the first review (the zero punctuation one) was funny. And the speaker's like Mordin. I was waiting for the interrupt to 'slow him the hell down.' :D

DigiFluid
February 18th, 2010, 10:45 AM
Here's another ME2 related article. Very good read, IMHO.
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=7004
Yeah....no.

I got about halfway through it before I gave up. Either the guy didn't actually play either game, or he halfassed it and wasn't paying attention.

Oranos
February 18th, 2010, 11:00 AM
Yeah....no.

I got about halfway through it before I gave up. Either the guy didn't actually play either game, or he halfassed it and wasn't paying attention.

I think the author made two legitimate points throughout the entire article, which for three pages was pretty damn impressive. I didn't think anyone could be that blind and misinterpret that much. Seems I was wrong.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one that thinks that.

Stewart5
February 18th, 2010, 12:39 PM
It was pretty poor. At least Zero Punctuation is funny, and Yahtze has obviously played it.

gotthammer
February 18th, 2010, 12:58 PM
I, on the other hand, played through the ME2 (and am playing through ME1 so I can bring another character to ME2) but agree on most, if not all of the article's points. :D

Granted it can be argued that some of what the article's author states can be explained (via Codex or Dialogue or as part of plot), parts of the game do feel forced (and he did point out that it was mostly about the bits in the start and end of ME2 that the 'problems' were most evident: Cerberus' role/Shepard's options, and the choice of cooking the base or giving it to TIM/Cerberus).
I mean, I pretty 'tolerant' as far as 'suspension of disbelief' goes, so I didn't mind many of the less glaring points, but some were a bit too, well, glaring.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the game (and, as mentioned, will be going through at least one more playthrough), but some things just seemed 'off', plot-wise.

Oranos
February 18th, 2010, 02:05 PM
Granted it can be argued that some of what the article's author states can be explained (via Codex or Dialogue or as part of plot), parts of the game do feel forced

(and he did point out that it was mostly about the bits in the start and end of ME2 that the 'problems' were most evident: Cerberus' role/Shepard's options, and the choice of cooking the base or giving it to TIM/Cerberus).

Then let me take a crack at the points you raise from his article.

1. Cerberus, the terrorist organization. They're not exactly evil, though they are after power and will advance humanity, if you believe the Illusive Man. They're willing to do whatever it takes to advance their goals (even if that means having to kill humans). The events of the first game are chalked up to a rogue cell--whether that's true or not is questionable. All that really shows is that the Illusive Man isn't perfect...things can escape his notice even with only a dozen or so cells under his watch. Or that's he's lying to get Shepard to get his help, which is also plausible. He just put more money than you and I can imagine into Shepard and his mission. The Illusive Man needs this to work. He'll do or say whatever it takes.

Does Shepard really want to work with them? Unlikely. But information is power (a theme of Mass Effect) and Cerberus has more of it than anyone else. Except maybe the Shadow Broker, but I think you'd all complain more if you had to work for the guy that wanted to give your body to the Collectors. :p

Is it a little odd that Cerberus is "playing nice?" Not really. They need you. The Illusive Man probably went out of his way to put together a crew of non-extremists that Shepard could trust. Everyone this side of tomorrow still points out how evil Cerberus is (besides Cerberus). It's not an overnight change here.

I was a little surprised by the lack of Council and Alliance help. But, quite frankly, that's politics for you. To be fair, they do throw you a bone (if you choose to accept it). Your Spectre-hood back, not that it means much in the Terminus Systems, but it's not like they're completely cutting you off. But they can't officially take action there.

The same can't be said for Cerberus. They have the money, information, and means to make your mission a success. Yes, the game forces you to work for them. But for very logical reasons.

2. The Collector/Reaper base. What idiot in his right mind would give it to anyone (Alliance, Council, Cerberus or otherwise)? Reaper technology has a nasty habit of indoctrinating people. In fact, the Reapers would probably want nothing more than for you to study their technology--these guys are all about races developing on a path that they've set out for you.

Not to mention, the Omega 4 Relay is inside Terminus Space. If the Alliance and Council believed you enough to go after it (which they currently don't), it'd mean war. This is exactly the reason that they forbid you to go Ilos in the first game.

Even if you wanted to keep the base for the Alliance of Council, Cerberus would still manage to get there first. Guess who has the Reaper IFF technology?

You don't need the base as proof anyway. EDI obtains the evidence you need.

Did I mention indoctrination?

Is the base worth the risk? Maybe. Hard to say at this juncture. As things look right now, giving it to anyone seems like a horrible idea.

EDIT: Thinking it through more, for a Renegade, it might just be worth the risk. We saw how effective the Turian engineered Thanix Cannons were. Mix a little human ingenuity in with some Reaper tech... Justifying it might be a little harder.

Even if the base does have some indoctrination power, studying it could be useful. You're going to need a defense against it at some point. The base provides a controlled environment to study it under.

The only problem is you still have to give it to the Illusive Man. And I'm not sure I entirely trust him. Though I like how he gets the job done.

The decision isn't really that black and white, I guess. And now it's going to drive me up the wall as I figure out what to do for my main playthrough. Great.

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 19th, 2010, 07:14 AM
Here's another ME2 related article. Very good read, IMHO.
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=7004

Incrediably bad read imo. The guy comes off as a twit who is demanding background infomation, THAT'S ALREADY THERE. Like him asking who the ilusive man was, well if your really intrested in the entire background why dosn't he buy the entire freaking novel dedicted to introducing the character. Some of the other stuff is incrediably nitpicky, like describing Shepard as Cerberus's nemisis in the first game. Tjat is totla ********, your character could run into them on a few side quests, it was perfectly possible to go through the first game without ever encountering them.

Ed
February 19th, 2010, 08:10 AM
re mass effect i will need an external at that size as im getting cod4 aswell soon

Re world of tanks scaling is a common trick we use it in eternal silence to have infantry and space sections it is the easiest way to have a huge battlefield as long as te level designer thinks it through it works very well

ENN is a weekly skit i just liked this week in particular the guys that do it, Loading ready run are a sketch comedy troupe but also massive nerds they some really good stuff i'm surprised how underexposed it is.

Also those stories at the news desk are true just embellished the special report may or my not be totally fabricated fabricated

I've noticed more people comenting on space sims absence recentyl even yahtze the most agressive video game reviewer ever has chimed in on it he made a good point though one i can back from first hand experience. It's really hard to think of stuff to put in space beyond gasclouds; astroids; comets; space stations; capital ships; giant artifacts (like the halos); wrekage and nebula there is nothing els to use

Oranos
February 19th, 2010, 08:31 AM
Incrediably bad read imo. The guy comes off as a twit who is demanding background infomation, THAT'S ALREADY THERE.

Normally, I'd just let a review which has a different opinion than mine fly without comment. But over half the crap this guy mentions is clearly addressed in either the first or second game. Some of it just requires a little thought (which is perfectly fine since I don't want to be treated like an idiot).

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 19th, 2010, 10:03 AM
Normally, I'd just let a review which has a different opinion than mine fly without comment. But over half the crap this guy mentions is clearly addressed in either the first or second game. Some of it just requires a little thought (which is perfectly fine since I don't want to be treated like an idiot).

Exactly. Normally I'd let a bad review slide. Some people have said they find Bioshock 2 boring. Fine, their opinion, I think their wrong but whatever, I'm off to enjoy more of it. But this review is so out there, complaing about stuff that actually is explained in the game universe, just irratites the hell out of me.

Stewart5
February 19th, 2010, 10:37 AM
I've only played the first two odd hours of ME2, and have played through part of ME now, and I don't rightly get where that guy is coming from.......

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 19th, 2010, 11:12 AM
I've only played the first two odd hours of ME2, and have played through part of ME now, and I don't rightly get where that guy is coming from.......

...His arse, more than likely :D

Some of the stuff you have to dig a little deeper into the background info, however it's not hard to get the novels from Amazon and even without them you still have a good idea of the plot. The novels are mainly used just to flesh out the world, the one released before Mass Effect 2 introduced concepts like Omega, explained a bit more about Cerberus and the Illusive man and introduced the Collectors. Some events from the novel are referenced in the game, like why the quarians are pissed with Cerberus, but you can happily understand the story in the game without the novels. If you are interested more in the detail of the universe then you can buy the novels, like I did. Good reads I must say :)

Stewart5
February 19th, 2010, 11:39 AM
I lovd games with extended universes, especially Halo. Without the novels, Halo would just be a series of flashy, repititive games that have the makings of a great story.

Oranos
February 19th, 2010, 12:04 PM
...His arse, more than likely :D


I laughed. :D


Some of the stuff you have to dig a little deeper into the background info, however it's not hard to get the novels from Amazon and even without them you still have a good idea of the plot.

I think my favorite part of his argument is where he complains Shepard is bad@$$. I could have sworn that was a requirement for a Spectre. Guess they might as well take on Conrad Verner in their ranks. :rolleyes:


The novels are mainly used just to flesh out the world, the one released before Mass Effect 2 introduced concepts like Omega, explained a bit more about Cerberus and the Illusive man and introduced the Collectors. Some events from the novel are referenced in the game, like why the quarians are pissed with Cerberus, but you can happily understand the story in the game without the novels. If you are interested more in the detail of the universe then you can buy the novels, like I did. God reads I must say :)

Yeah. I think I preferred the first one with Saren more. That one was "Revelation," right?

Of course, that brings up my complaint with BioWare--and, yes, it's a legitimate complaint. Why can't my Shepard be as bad@$$ as Saren?

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 19th, 2010, 12:38 PM
I laughed. :D
I think my favorite part of his argument is where he complains Shepard is bad@$$. I could have sworn that was a requirement for a Spectre. Guess they might as well take on Conrad Verner in their ranks. :rolleyes:
Yeah. I think I preferred the first one with Saren more. That one was "Revelation," right?
Of course, that brings up my complaint with BioWare--and, yes, it's a legitimate complaint. Why can't my Shepard be as bad@$$ as Saren?

Well I dunno my Shepard in Mass Effect 2 was very badass. While in Mass Effect 1 he was fairly nice, though with some renegade points, in Mass Effect 2 he definitely took a darker tone, he was more inclined to go screw it, and shoot people in the face (of course the quick time mechanic where you can do that sort of thing in the middle of conversations might have had something to do with it:P). My favourite moment was with Mordin's mission on Tuchanka and at one point when some Krogan starts ranting at you and you can choose to start shooting. Shepard seems to miss and the Krogan starts taunting him about it, till he realises Shepard has just shot a gas pipe, cue oh crap moment followed by BOOM! Bad freaking ass :D

Oranos
February 19th, 2010, 01:01 PM
Well I dunno my Shepard in Mass Effect 2 was very badass. While in Mass Effect 1 he was fairly nice, though with some renegade points, in Mass Effect 2 he definitely took a darker tone, he was more inclined to go screw it, and shoot people in the face (of course the quick time mechanic where you can do that sort of thing in the middle of conversations might have had something to do with it:P).

Mine was too. I tend to be pretty Renegade--fits in with the whole idea of a Spectre more, I think. Just from what I remember of the "Revelation," Saren was absolutely brutal. Some of the choices just feel like they should pack some more "punch," I guess.


My favourite moment was with Mordin's mission on Tuchanka and at one point when some Krogan starts ranting at you and you can choose to start shooting. Shepard seems to miss and the Krogan starts taunting him about it, till he realises Shepard has just shot a gas pipe, cue oh crap moment followed by BOOM! Bad freaking ass :D

That was pretty fun. I love how the other Krogan starts backing up when that's taking place.

There's two others that I really liked too. On Archangel's recruitment where you tell Cathka that he's "working too hard" on the gunship and electrocute him. The other was on Thane's recruitment where you push the merc out the window.

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 19th, 2010, 01:19 PM
Mine was too. I tend to be pretty Renegade--fits in with the whole idea of a Spectre more, I think. Just from what I remember of the "Revelation," Saren was absolutely brutal. Some of the choices just feel like they should pack some more "punch," I guess.

That was pretty fun. I love how the other Krogan starts backing up when that's taking place.

There's two others that I really liked too. On Archangel's recruitment where you tell Cathka that he's "working too hard" on the gunship and electrocute him. The other was on Thane's recruitment where you push the merc out the window.

Oh yeah all that stuff happened to me as well. Pretty much whenever that red icon flashed up in conversations, it should have come up with a message, "press button now to make Shepard do something badass" :D. Then again Mass Effect 2 had Adam Baldwin in, you knew it was going to be badass :P

Oranos
February 19th, 2010, 01:29 PM
Oh yeah all that stuff happened to me as well. Pretty much whenever that red icon flashed up in conversations, it should have come up with a message, "press button now to make Shepard do something badass" :D. Then again Mass Effect 2 had Adam Baldwin in, you knew it was going to be badass :P

Yeah, if the red came up, I pretty much hit it every single time. Just mentioning those as my favorites.

Don't even get me started on Kal'Reegar. I would have traded Tali'Zorah for him any day of the week. That would have greatly increased the bad@$$ness of my squad. I loved Miranda, Archangel, and Thane, but I wouldn't have minded switching between the four of them.

Ed
February 19th, 2010, 03:08 PM
I'm surprised to see Shamus young would write such crap he's usually good when he writes for the escapist

my favourite game reviews is a combination of zero punctuation and ask LRR's the games we play, the first is ruthless and will show up any flaws and is a good laugh and ask LRR are just gamers talking about stuff it isnt meant as a review space so it is less coloured.

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 19th, 2010, 04:00 PM
Yeah, if the red came up, I pretty much hit it every single time. Just mentioning those as my favorites.

Don't even get me started on Kal'Reegar. I would have traded Tali'Zorah for him any day of the week. That would have greatly increased the bad@$$ness of my squad. I loved Miranda, Archangel, and Thane, but I wouldn't have minded switching between the four of them.

Hey don't diss Tali, my Shepard got some hot Quarian lovin :D But Kal Reegar was awesome, hell the whole cast was awesome, I found Tricia Helfer as EDI hilarious and Martin Sheen as the illusive man was just utterly cool. And yes I'd agree Thane was an excellent character as well and his voice actor was one of the best, despite being surrounded by more well known, excellent actors who were giving great performances, his was standout. Hell everyone was great. :)

Oranos
February 19th, 2010, 04:29 PM
Hey don't diss Tali, my Shepard got some hot Quarian lovin :D But Kal Reegar was awesome, hell the whole cast was awesome, I found Tricia Helfer as EDI hilarious and Martin Sheen as the illusive man was just utterly cool. And yes I'd agree Thane was an excellent character as well and his voice actor was one of the best, despite being surrounded by more well known, excellent actors who were giving great performances, his was standout. Hell everyone was great. :)

Tali? I just can't do that. She feels like a little sister; yes, I'm completely overprotective, but I can't bring myself to pursue a romance. Not to mention, her skillset in this game sucks. On the whole, not a very useful character for combat.

If I want AI Hacking, my Shepard has it (not that I would because it's horrible). Combat Drone on other squadmates just takes too long to recharge to be useful. I'm not fond of Energy Drain either. Legion has many of the same problems, but he makes up for it with a better weapon selection and unique skill. And Mordin just crushes both of them when I want pure tech.

I rarely brought Tali with me. I don't have a real problem with her character, she's pretty decent, but I would have liked either a better skillset from her or a more useful character. Then I wouldn't be so quick to ditch her. I probably should have been more clear about that.

Now for voice actors, this was probably the best voiced game that I've ever heard. Everyone did do a fantastic job.

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 19th, 2010, 04:41 PM
Tali? I just can't do that. She feels like a little sister; yes, I'm completely overprotective, but I can't bring myself to pursue a romance. Not to mention, her skillset in this game sucks. On the whole, not a very useful character for combat.

If I want AI Hacking, my Shepard has it (not that I would because it's horrible). Combat Drone on other squadmates just takes too long to recharge to be useful. I'm not fond of Energy Drain either. Legion has many of the same problems, but he makes up for it with a better weapon selection and unique skill. And Mordin just crushes both of them when I want pure tech.

I rarely brought Tali with me. I don't have a real problem with her character, she's pretty decent, but I would have liked either a better skillset from her or a more useful character. Then I wouldn't be so quick to ditch her. I probably should have been more clear about that.

Now for voice actors, this was probably the best voiced game that I've ever heard. Everyone did do a fantastic job.
The writings fantastic as well. Love this scene so much

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJXm3l3Sjsc

DigiFluid
February 19th, 2010, 04:42 PM
I always tried to bring along 'mission appropriate' characters, as it were. Tali and Legion for Legion's loyalty mission, Garrus on pretty much all the Citadel missions, etc. Made for a nice balance of dialogue throughout.

Oranos
February 19th, 2010, 04:45 PM
I always tried to bring along 'mission appropriate' characters, as it were. Tali and Legion for Legion's loyalty mission, Garrus on pretty much all the Citadel missions, etc. Made for a nice balance of dialogue throughout.

I find it comical to bring along the "wrong" characters too. Legion to the Migrant Fleet, for example. Priceless. :D

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 19th, 2010, 05:11 PM
I find it comical to bring along the "wrong" characters too. Legion to the Migrant Fleet, for example. Priceless. :D

Bring Legion on the Citadel, now thats funny :P

Oranos
February 19th, 2010, 05:24 PM
Bring Legion on the Citadel, now thats funny :P

Been there, done that. If it seemed stupid, I've done it just for the laughs. ;)

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 19th, 2010, 05:26 PM
Been there, done that. If it seemed stupid, I've done it just for the laughs. ;)

"Hi their C-SEC, checking for Geth are you? Just passing through with my synthetic friend here" :D

Oranos
February 19th, 2010, 05:34 PM
"Hi their C-SEC, checking for Geth are you? Just passing through with my synthetic friend here" :D

This is not the droid you're looking for. Suckers. :D

I love the "elevator conversation" on the Citadel. You've probably seen it, but if you haven't:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmpIKDXVpx4&feature=related

DigiFluid
February 19th, 2010, 05:40 PM
I laughed when that happened :D

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 19th, 2010, 05:45 PM
I laughed when that happened :D

As did I. I really don't miss the elevator rides :P

Oranos
February 19th, 2010, 05:50 PM
As did I. I really don't miss the elevator rides :P

Which is why I found it amusing when Miranda was complaining about them during her loyalty mission. With the same elevator music from the first game playing in the background.

DigiFluid
February 19th, 2010, 05:56 PM
While I don't miss being stuck stationary in a elevator, I do miss the news broadcasts of stuff that you've been doing throughout the galaxy. Having to go to specific news terminals is somewhat less....immersive, or something.

We probably should start a separate thread for the Mass Effect universe :p

Oranos
February 19th, 2010, 06:04 PM
While I don't miss being stuck stationary in a elevator, I do miss the news broadcasts of stuff that you've been doing throughout the galaxy. Having to go to specific news terminals is somewhat less....immersive, or something.

I hated the elevators and the reports; half the time I'd get the same one over and over. But Wrex...Wrex had the best elevator conversations. "So who'd win in a fight between you and Shepard?" :D

But I'm not sure I like the terminals either. There has to be some sort of middle ground...or something.


We probably should start a separate thread for the Mass Effect universe :p

At the rate we're going, that isn't a bad idea. ;)

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 19th, 2010, 06:06 PM
We probably should start a separate thread for the Mass Effect universe :p


Yeah you've taken my erudite thread on the nature of scifi and videogames and gone offtopic :D

I think we could justify a seperate thread at this point though.

DigiFluid
February 19th, 2010, 06:16 PM
Done! (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread)

Now let's resume talking about the grander palette that a 30+ hour game has over a 90 minute movie or a weekly 42 minute series :)

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 19th, 2010, 06:29 PM
Now let's resume talking about the grander palette that a 30+ hour game has over a 90 minute movie or a weekly 42 minute series :)

I'd say games in terms of stories have a lot on par with tv series in terms of storytelling, at least in terms of length and richness of detail that can be added in but videogames have several unique advantages. I mean with a tv show runners often have no idea if it will be cancelled or renewed for another season, videogames have the luxury of being able to tell a story of whatever length the designers choose, without having to worry, at least in the short term about whether the story will actually survive. Further I think videogame structures, freed of the artificial nature of having to put stories in 42 minute chunks feel much more natural in their story telling.

Stewart5
February 19th, 2010, 07:18 PM
Without the constant credits, adverts on tv and constant changing of discs games feel a lot less stilted. And the story flows better, none of this 'we've progressed a month in a week but nothing of interest has happened' nonsense

SaberBlade
February 19th, 2010, 07:45 PM
Without the constant credits, adverts on tv and constant changing of discs games feel a lot less stilted. And the story flows better, none of this 'we've progressed a month in a week but nothing of interest has happened' nonsense

You have a good point, but I do find that being able to have those breaks will allow people to fully understand what has happened better. Depending on the story, several plays may be needed to understand a lot of things because it was all going from one thing to the next. No real time is spent in being able to just sit back and absorb what has happened.

DigiFluid
February 19th, 2010, 07:54 PM
You have a good point, but I do find that being able to have those breaks will allow people to fully understand what has happened better. Depending on the story, several plays may be needed to understand a lot of things because it was all going from one thing to the next. No real time is spent in being able to just sit back and absorb what has happened.
Well, that's only dictated by how often you take breaks from the game :)

Oranos
February 19th, 2010, 07:56 PM
You have a good point, but I do find that being able to have those breaks will allow people to fully understand what has happened better. Depending on the story, several plays may be needed to understand a lot of things because it was all going from one thing to the next. No real time is spent in being able to just sit back and absorb what has happened.

Loading screens. :p

SaberBlade
February 19th, 2010, 08:01 PM
Well, that's only dictated by how often you take breaks from the game :)

It can, but in the likes of RPG's such as Final Fantasy, you end up spending a decent enough time wandering around so you can end up thinking a lot about what went on. In games that usually involve a lot of running and gunning, it's easy to skip what is going on and that is assuming the game has a story that causes you to think about.


Loading screens. :p

Loading screens only give you enough time to complain to yourself about another damn loading screen.

DigiFluid
February 19th, 2010, 08:07 PM
Loading screens only give you enough time to complain to yourself about another damn loading screen.
Unless you're playing the abomination that was Deus Ex 2. Then you spend more time on loading screens than you do in-game.

SaberBlade
February 19th, 2010, 08:09 PM
Unless you're playing the abomination that was Deus Ex 2. Then you spend more time on loading screens than you do in-game.

Good thing for me I never played it. In fact... think I played for 15 minutes on Deus EX 1 then got bored to tears and played replayed Outcast (fantastic scifi game, plus has a not so subtle hint to Stargate in it).

DigiFluid
February 19th, 2010, 08:10 PM
In fact... think I played for 15 minutes on Deus EX 1 then got bored to tears

HEATHEN!

Deus Ex is unquestionably the best videogame of all time. Play itttttt :)

SaberBlade
February 19th, 2010, 08:12 PM
I doubt it would play on Windows 7, being a decade old. It pisses me off I can't play Outcast and it came out a few months before Deus Ex. Now that is unquestionably the best videogame of all time and this coming from a die hard Metal Gear Solid/Final Fantasy 8 & X fan.

DigiFluid
February 19th, 2010, 08:14 PM
I doubt it would play on Windows 7, being a decade old.
It does, both the retail version and the Steam version.


It pisses me off I can't play Outcast and it came out a few months before Deus Ex. Now that is unquestionably the best videogame of all time and this coming from a die hard Metal Gear Solid/Final Fantasy 8 & X fan.
Outcast? Come on.... ;)

I love all kinds of well-recognized game greats, but Mass Effect is the only one that comes close to toppling it. It doesn't, but it comes close.

SaberBlade
February 19th, 2010, 08:19 PM
Did you ever play Outcast? That game was fantastic. Shooter, action, adventure, bit platformy at times, puzzle and it did it all while looking great for it's time using software and not hardware for graphics and Lennie Moore did a fantastic job on the soundtrack and had a great story, something that would easily get my approval if someone decent wanted to make a movie.

Not to mention the gameplay. I loved storming into places, then teleporting out. Sending in a hologram version first in some areas, then letting it distract people and just shooting everything that moves.

I was looking forward to the sequel before Appeal went bankrupt.

Replicator Todd
February 20th, 2010, 12:19 AM
Outcast? As in Jedi Outcast? One of my favorite video games of all time. Kyle Katarn FTW.

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 20th, 2010, 04:52 AM
Deus Ex is unquestionably the best videogame of all time. Play itttttt :)

Indeed Deus Ex is still brilliant, and an excellent example of scifi videogames at their best. Hope they don't screw up Deus Ex 3 though.

SaberBlade
February 20th, 2010, 10:12 AM
Outcast? As in Jedi Outcast? One of my favorite video games of all time. Kyle Katarn FTW.

No, not Jedi Outcast (which is a good game). Outcast is a 1999 game about a US Navy Seal called Cutter Slade who is tasked with leading a team of scientists to a parallel world to repair a damaged probe, which was attacked by a native on that world and has since caused a power backlash which is going to suck the Earth into a blackhole.

I absolutely love this game. It's easily the best game I have ever played and It pisses me off that it can't be played on modern systems. I have an old 1gb system so I am considering trying that out for a while just to play it. I think the fact it came out in 1999 hurt it, it was a fantastic game, looked amazing (I remember being amazed at how different the game looked when I went from 1mb graphics accelator to 4mb) but with games like Final Fantasy 8, Syphon Filter, Driver, UK had Metal Gear Solid. They were making a sequel for the PS2/PC but Infogrames who was publishing it decided not to help fund Appeal who were suffering money issues, so they went bankrupt.

It's the little things about the game that is cool. the play disc works in CD players and plays the soundtrack, and they made outtakes so they re-release the game on DVD so it's the first game that I can think of that had special features.

Replicator Todd
February 21st, 2010, 12:17 PM
I remember this old PS1 fantasy game Medievil, just epic....I always wanted to see it become a movie or something.

gotthammer
February 22nd, 2010, 02:34 AM
Finally got to try out AvP (MP demo). It's pretty...and it runs rather smoothly on my 5 or so year old PC. :D
Didn't get to try the Alien, tho', as the MP matchmaking thing was kinda screwy, I think (or it's just the connection on my end is too bad).

Definitely getting this one. A small gripe: I now kinda agree w/ the dude who said the smartgun sounded 'off' (compared to the one in the movie), still it was cool (tho' the RoF felt a bit slow).

Stewart5
February 22nd, 2010, 06:57 AM
RoF? Slow? You could empty the drum ina matter of secondS!!!!

gotthammer
February 22nd, 2010, 09:38 AM
RoF? Slow? You could empty the drum ina matter of secondS!!!!

Bah! Still not fast enough! :D :D :D

Ed
February 22nd, 2010, 09:07 PM
lol ever play TF3 it had an SMG that fired 28 rounds a second on a 64 round clip was hilariously lethal if timed correctly

AVP has match making that sucks I was considering it why do publishers hate their customers, dedicated serves are integral on the PC I won't buy games that don't support it but should.

DigiFluid
February 22nd, 2010, 09:12 PM
lol ever play TF3 it had an SMG that fired 28 rounds a second on a 64 round clip was hilariously lethal if timed correctly

AVP has match making that sucks I was considering it why do publishers hate their customers, dedicated serves are integral on the PC I won't buy games that don't support it but should.
I'm trying to figure out what you meant by TF3. I played a bit of Quake TF, some TFC, and a lot of TF2, but never heard of TF3. And there really isn't a rapid-fire SMG in TF2.... :confused:

gotthammer
February 23rd, 2010, 02:44 AM
lol ever play TF3 it had an SMG that fired 28 rounds a second on a 64 round clip was hilariously lethal if timed correctly

AVP has match making that sucks I was considering it why do publishers hate their customers, dedicated serves are integral on the PC I won't buy games that don't support it but should.

Huh. No dedicated servers? Guess I should've read up more. Maybe I'll review that...err...review again. No dedi-servers is the reason why I still haven't played CoD:MW2 yet.
Still, I think I'm wanting to get AvP more for the single-player campaign. *shrugs* Oh well, I still have time to decide...the local gamestore doesn't have the game yet.

And, as w/ Digi, what's TF3?

Giantevilhead
February 23rd, 2010, 03:52 PM
I liked Mass Effect 2 but it was far from original. The whole Mass Effect universe seems to have been based on Star Trek Enterprise.

Look at all the similarities:
*Spoilers for both Enterprise and Mass Effect 2*
- Humans are relatively new to the galactic community.
- Older races, Vulcan/Klingons/Andorians/Council, view humanity with contempt.
- The hero, Archer/Shepard, is sent out with a prototype ship, Enterprise/Normandy, to prove humanity's "worthiness."
- The humans get attacked by a mysterious enemy, Suliban/Xindi/Saren/Geth/Collectors.
- The older races, Vulcan/Council, dismiss the threat and don't do anything to help humanity.
- The hero goes into unexplored space, Terminus System/Delphic Expanse, to fight the enemy.
- The hero then learns that the bad guys he's been fighting, Suliban/Xindi/Geth/Saren, are actually pawns of a much more powerful villain, Sovereign/Reapers/Temporal Cold War agent/Sphere Builders.
- The hero learns that some of the enemies he's been fighting aren't all bad and are actually divided into two different factions, Suliban rebels/Mammalian, Aquatic, Arboreal Xindi/true Geth and genetically altered Suliban/Reptilian, Insectoid Xindi/heretic Geth.
- The real villains have some kind of massive evil plan that is a threat to the entire galaxy, wiping out all life/wiping out enemies from the timeline/bringing an alternate reality into our universe.

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 23rd, 2010, 04:36 PM
I liked Mass Effect 2 but it was far from original. The whole Mass Effect universe seems to have been based on Star Trek Enterprise.

Look at all the similarities:
*Spoilers for both Enterprise and Mass Effect 2*
- Humans are relatively new to the galactic community.
- Older races, Vulcan/Klingons/Andorians/Council, view humanity with contempt.
- The hero, Archer/Shepard, is sent out with a prototype ship, Enterprise/Normandy, to prove humanity's "worthiness."
- The humans get attacked by a mysterious enemy, Suliban/Xindi/Saren/Geth/Collectors.
- The older races, Vulcan/Council, dismiss the threat and don't do anything to help humanity.
- The hero goes into unexplored space, Terminus System/Delphic Expanse, to fight the enemy.
- The hero then learns that the bad guys he's been fighting, Suliban/Xindi/Geth/Saren, are actually pawns of a much more powerful villain, Sovereign/Reapers/Temporal Cold War agent/Sphere Builders.
- The hero learns that some of the enemies he's been fighting aren't all bad and are actually divided into two different factions, Suliban rebels/Mammalian, Aquatic, Arboreal Xindi/true Geth and genetically altered Suliban/Reptilian, Insectoid Xindi/heretic Geth.
- The real villains have some kind of massive evil plan that is a threat to the entire galaxy, wiping out all life/wiping out enemies from the timeline/bringing an alternate reality into our universe.

Congratulations, you’ve identified many of the clichés and tropes that are prevalent throughout scifi. None of those tropes are exclusive to Enterprise, further some of the stuff you state is wrong, humanity isn’t viewed with contempt, by Mass Effect 2 for example its stated that humanity’s actions in saving the Citadel from the Geth have led to humanity being very well respected, their now on the Council. Further the damage to the Galactic powers have led to humanity’s expansion, they fill out C SEC because of this. Further in the first game the older galactic powers do listen to you, thats why they make you a spectre. By Mass Effect 2, everyone but Cerberus is ignoring you, it’s not just the older races, the Human Alliance think Shepard is discredited as well.

No one’s claiming that the Mass Effect universe is the most original thing ever, rather it takes common scifi tropes and twists them in different ways. Oh and finally there exists a separate Mass Effect thread on the board, jump in here for better discussions.
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread

Giantevilhead
February 23rd, 2010, 05:49 PM
Congratulations, you’ve identified many of the clichés and tropes that are prevalent throughout scifi. None of those tropes are exclusive to Enterprise, further some of the stuff you state is wrong, humanity isn’t viewed with contempt, by Mass Effect 2 for example its stated that humanity’s actions in saving the Citadel from the Geth have led to humanity being very well respected, their now on the Council. Further the damage to the Galactic powers have led to humanity’s expansion, they fill out C SEC because of this. Further in the first game the older galactic powers do listen to you, thats why they make you a spectre. By Mass Effect 2, everyone but Cerberus is ignoring you, it’s not just the older races, the Human Alliance think Shepard is discredited as well.

No one’s claiming that the Mass Effect universe is the most original thing ever, rather it takes common scifi tropes and twists them in different ways. Oh and finally there exists a separate Mass Effect thread on the board, jump in here for better discussions.
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread

Much of what you described in ME also happened in Enterprise. Archer's actions also earned the respect of the other races. In fact, the Alliance parallels the Federation way too much.

The prevalence of those clichés is irrelevant. What matters is that ME uses pretty much the same clichés as Enterprise and puts them together in the same way.

Also, the way in which everyone dismissed Archer was extremely poorly written. The Council and Alliance were dumbed down considerably in the second game. In the first game, the Council stripped Saren of his Spectre status after hearing an incriminating recording but they dismissed the Reapers despite the fact that they have half a Reaper corpse. They also claimed that Vigil was no longer active but Liara made a recording of the encounter of Vigil. Not to mention the fact that the Council also acknowledged the threat of the Reapers at the end of the first game. Then there's the problem of how most of Cerberus's atrocities from the first game were ignored. Heck, if you picked the sole survivor background, the event that you survived was a Thresher Maw attack caused by Cerberus but that was never brought up.

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 23rd, 2010, 06:16 PM
Much of what you described in ME also happened in Enterprise. Archer's actions also earned the respect of the other races. In fact, the Alliance parallels the Federation way too much.

The prevalence of those clichés is irrelevant. What matters is that ME uses pretty much the same clichés as Enterprise and puts them together in the same way.

Also, the way in which everyone dismissed Archer was extremely poorly written. The Council and Alliance were dumbed down considerably in the second game. In the first game, the Council stripped Saren of his Spectre status after hearing an incriminating recording but they dismissed the Reapers despite the fact that they have half a Reaper corpse. They also claimed that Vigil was no longer active but Liara made a recording of the encounter of Vigil. Not to mention the fact that the Council also acknowledged the threat of the Reapers at the end of the first game. Then there's the problem of how most of Cerberus's atrocities from the first game were ignored. Heck, if you picked the sole survivor background, the event that you survived was a Thresher Maw attack caused by Cerberus but that was never brought up.

Look you want to discuss Mass Effect go, feel free to but please discuss it in the specific thread, we took it out of this thread because it was taking this thread off topic. All that I’ll say on Mass Effect here is what I’ve already said, the fictional tropes present in Mass Effect are in no way exclusive to Enterprise but can be found throughout science fiction.

Oranos
February 23rd, 2010, 06:21 PM
Look you want to discuss Mass Effect go, feel free to but please discuss it in the specific thread, we took it out of this thread because it was taking this thread off topic.

This.

We'd love to discuss it with you there, Giantevilhead. Though I think you'd find that some of your facts are wrong. :)

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 23rd, 2010, 06:28 PM
This.

We'd love to discuss it with you there, Giantevilhead. Though I think you'd find that some of your facts are wrong. :)

Yup we'll argue with you back and forth, we just don't want to do it on this thread when we already have a thread set aside for Mass Effect.

Giantevilhead
February 23rd, 2010, 07:18 PM
My point with Mass Effect is that although sci-fi games are fun and well written, they haven't really added much to the genre. KotoR was great and KotoR2 could have been even better if the greedy *******s at Lucas Arts had actually given Obsidian a chance to finish the game but what those games really did was restore some of the magic and wonder we saw in the original trilogy but they didn't really add too much new stuff to the Star Wars franchise. Sci-fi games have a long way to go compared to fantasy games like Wizardry, Might and Magic, Arcanum, and Planescape: Torment, and what they've added to the fantasy genre.

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 24th, 2010, 07:19 AM
My point with Mass Effect is that although sci-fi games are fun and well written, they haven't really added much to the genre. KotoR was great and KotoR2 could have been even better if the greedy *******s at Lucas Arts had actually given Obsidian a chance to finish the game but what those games really did was restore some of the magic and wonder we saw in the original trilogy but they didn't really add too much new stuff to the Star Wars franchise. Sci-fi games have a long way to go compared to fantasy games like Wizardry, Might and Magic, Arcanum, and Planescape: Torment, and what they've added to the fantasy genre.

Ahem, points towards Bioshock. What mainstream scifi film would dare attempt a in-depth study of an objectivist society ? As for Mass Effect the basic story might not be groundbreaking for scifi, but the medium of videogames allows the Mass Effect universe to be more detailed than any fictional universe in a film or tv series.

Giantevilhead
February 24th, 2010, 08:19 AM
Ahem, points towards Bioshock. What mainstream scifi film would dare attempt a in-depth study of an objectivist society ? As for Mass Effect the basic story might not be groundbreaking for scifi, but the medium of videogames allows the Mass Effect universe to be more detailed than any fictional universe in a film or tv series.

Star Trek did it all the time. There are so many Star Trek episodes that deconstructed various political philosophies and strategies that I can't even remember most of them. Considering how progressive Star Trek has been, I wouldn't be surprised if they've done an episode deconstructing Ayn Rand's ideas. Also, Star Trek generally did it in a more interesting fashion than tape recordings.

Mass Effect is certainly more detailed compared to movies but not compared to television shows. There are less than 20 sentient races in Mass Effect and only the Krogan, Quarian, and humans have been explored in detail. Heck, we know more about the Changelings, a race that's supposed to be secretive and mysterious, than the Batarians, Elcor, Volus, Turians, Hanar, Vorcha, and Salarians.

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 24th, 2010, 02:17 PM
Star Trek did it all the time. There are so many Star Trek episodes that deconstructed various political philosophies and strategies that I can't even remember most of them. Considering how progressive Star Trek has been, I wouldn't be surprised if they've done an episode deconstructing Ayn Rand's ideas. Also, Star Trek generally did it in a more interesting fashion than tape recordings.

Mass Effect is certainly more detailed compared to movies but not compared to television shows. There are less than 20 sentient races in Mass Effect and only the Krogan, Quarian, and humans have been explored in detail. Heck, we know more about the Changelings, a race that's supposed to be secretive and mysterious, than the Batarians, Elcor, Volus, Turians, Hanar, Vorcha, and Salarians.

I don’t think any Star Trek episode has explored the ideas of objectivism, collectivism or any other political or philosophical idea to the extent that the Bioshock games do. Any ideas presented in Star Trek episodes are dumbed down to cater for a mainstream audience, the Bioshock games unashamedly do not. They are not dumbed down, easily digestible chunks like Star Trek episodes, but a true exploration of these ideas, not only using audio tapes but interactions with other characters or even just the environment around you.

As for Mass Effect, that fictional universe has existed since 2007, you can’t compare it to a 40 year old universe like Star Trek. Further you clearly haven’t been reading the background material, the ingame Mass Effect codex with both games gives extensive knowledge on each race in the universe, their culture, society, history, military ect. Even though in the games we haven’t visited a salarian world or a turian world there exists plenty of material explain these races in great detail. We know far more about the Mass Effect universe than if it were a tv show and we might be in the second or third season.

Oranos
February 24th, 2010, 02:36 PM
As for Mass Effect, that fictional universe has existed since 2007, you can’t compare it to a 40 year old universe like Star Trek. Further you clearly haven’t been reading the background material, the ingame Mass Effect codex with both games gives extensive knowledge on each race in the universe, their culture, society, history, military ect. Even though in the games we haven’t visited a salarian world or a turian world there exists plenty of material explain these races in great detail. We know far more about the Mass Effect universe than if it were a tv show and we might be in the second or third season.

Yeah, pretty much. If you read the Codex, read the novels, talk to the right people (Avina, for example), and use the right conversation options, you find out quite a bit about most of these races. Comparing it to a show like Star Trek which has a couple thousand seasons and movies under its belt is hardly fair.

And Giantevilhead, I'd appreciate it if you stopped making up facts to support your claims. Or just doublecheck if you're not sure on something. I understand that you don't appreciate the games and what they bring to the table, but your posts have numerous mistakes and errors, and it's taking away a lot of credibility from your statements.

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 24th, 2010, 02:44 PM
Yeah, pretty much. If you read the Codex, read the novels, talk to the right people (Avina, for example), and use the right conversation options, you find out quite a bit about most of these races. Comparing it to a show like Star Trek which has a couple thousand seasons and movies under its belt is hardly fair.

Yeah, the novels flesh out much of the universe as well, but they’re not required and all the necessary information about the universe which is very in depth is in the codex. Some of the exploration of the races is very much signposted, like visiting the Asari world of Illium, the Krogans on Tuchanka or the Quarian migrant fleet. Some of it requires more digging but it’s still there, in the codex, in certain characters and little snippets around the game universe.

Giantevilhead
February 24th, 2010, 07:10 PM
I don’t think any Star Trek episode has explored the ideas of objectivism, collectivism or any other political or philosophical idea to the extent that the Bioshock games do. Any ideas presented in Star Trek episodes are dumbed down to cater for a mainstream audience, the Bioshock games unashamedly do not. They are not dumbed down, easily digestible chunks like Star Trek episodes, but a true exploration of these ideas, not only using audio tapes but interactions with other characters or even just the environment around you.

You really don't think that Bioshock didn't dumb anything down? It barely explored any of Ayn Rand's ideas. All it did was prop up strawmen of Ayn Rand's ideas to knock down. Andrew Ryan practically parodied Rand's ideas, reducing them to a few catch phrases.


As for Mass Effect, that fictional universe has existed since 2007, you can’t compare it to a 40 year old universe like Star Trek. Further you clearly haven’t been reading the background material, the ingame Mass Effect codex with both games gives extensive knowledge on each race in the universe, their culture, society, history, military ect. Even though in the games we haven’t visited a salarian world or a turian world there exists plenty of material explain these races in great detail. We know far more about the Mass Effect universe than if it were a tv show and we might be in the second or third season.

I don't see how the age of ME is relevant. What matters is the amount of substance within the story relative to the amount of time it takes to read/watch/play it. It takes about 20 to 30 hours to finish each of the ME games. That's a total of 40 to 60 hours, which translates to about two to three seasons of a Star Trek show. You could watch almost every episode of the first two seasons of TOS in that time. You could also read all the Dune books in that amount of time, including a few of the crappy ones written by Brian Herbert. I would argue that the amount of substance in just the original Dune exceeds the amount of substance in Mass Effect and at least a full 22 to 26 episode season of Star Trek and it would take a maximum of 10 hours to read it.

As for the Codices, I've read them, they are extensive if you consider a four paragraph description of a race to be an exhaustive record of their culture and history.

Oranos
February 24th, 2010, 08:41 PM
Yeah, the novels flesh out much of the universe as well, but they’re not required and all the necessary information about the universe which is very in depth is in the codex. Some of the exploration of the races is very much signposted, like visiting the Asari world of Illium, the Krogans on Tuchanka or the Quarian migrant fleet. Some of it requires more digging but it’s still there, in the codex, in certain characters and little snippets around the game universe.

The novels may not be required, but you'd miss out on some interesting tidbits. You'd never know the Salarians have an offshoot of their race called the Lystheni, for example. I'm almost positive that that isn't mentioned in either game.

The information is there if you take the time to look for it. Read the codex, read the datapads you find, talk! It's an RPG and there's a wealth of information to be had in this universe. Like you said, some of it requires some digging, but it's well worth the effort.

Giantevilhead
February 24th, 2010, 11:00 PM
Yeah, pretty much. If you read the Codex, read the novels, talk to the right people (Avina, for example), and use the right conversation options, you find out quite a bit about most of these races. Comparing it to a show like Star Trek which has a couple thousand seasons and movies under its belt is hardly fair.

And Giantevilhead, I'd appreciate it if you stopped making up facts to support your claims. Or just doublecheck if you're not sure on something. I understand that you don't appreciate the games and what they bring to the table, but your posts have numerous mistakes and errors, and it's taking away a lot of credibility from your statements.

What facts am I making up? Just because you said that I made a mistake doesn't make it true. I can say that your posts are full of mistakes too but it doesn't mean anything unless I actually give an example of a mistake. Heck, I can say that you are mistaken in your assumption that I've made mistakes since you've done nothing to support your statement.

As for the games, I never said that I don't appreciate them. What you don't seem to understand about my argument is that I'm saying that there are degrees of excellence and originality. I like Bioshock and Mass Effect. I think they're great games but they are far from groundbreaking or original. They have not advanced the sci-fi genre in the same way that games like Wizardry, Might and Magic, and Planescape: Torment advanced the fantasy genre.

Also, your assumption that I haven't read the Codices or talked to all the characters is erroneous and quite naive considering the fact that I brought up Wizardry, Might and Magic, and Planescape: Torment as examples of games that greatly advanced the fantasy genre. Those games are more than 10 years old and their stories are told almost exclusively through text. In fact, Planescape: Torment had as much text as a full length novel. Do you honestly think that I would ignore the codices in ME if the games that I hold in such high regard relied almost entirely on text to advance their stories?

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 25th, 2010, 07:21 AM
I don't see how the age of ME is relevant. What matters is the amount of substance within the story relative to the amount of time it takes to read/watch/play it. It takes about 20 to 30 hours to finish each of the ME games. That's a total of 40 to 60 hours, which translates to about two to three seasons of a Star Trek show. You could watch almost every episode of the first two seasons of TOS in that time. You could also read all the Dune books in that amount of time, including a few of the crappy ones written by Brian Herbert. I would argue that the amount of substance in just the original Dune exceeds the amount of substance in Mass Effect and at least a full 22 to 26 episode season of Star Trek and it would take a maximum of 10 hours to read it.

As for the Codices, I've read them, they are extensive if you consider a four paragraph description of a race to be an exhaustive record of their culture and history.
Well the age is kinda important, the point being that the Mass Effect Universe in its current form is more detailed and richer than if it was a tv series and had been on for 2 or 3 seasons. And frankly off the top of my head the codexs in Mass Effect 2 had reams of text, on the subject of the races in the universe.

Oranos
February 25th, 2010, 07:29 AM
What facts am I making up? Just because you said that I made a mistake doesn't make it true. I can say that your posts are full of mistakes too but it doesn't mean anything unless I actually give an example of a mistake. Heck, I can say that you are mistaken in your assumption that I've made mistakes since you've done nothing to support your statement.

Let's review some of your facts then. In no particular order.

1. The Terminus Systems. For an unexplored place, it's pretty well inhabitated (and mapped) by many of the known races: Turians, Krogan, Asari, Humans, etc. It's also (supposed to be) populated by some minor species of which we haven't heard (or heard much of). It's a loose affiliation that doesn't adhere to Council authority. This makes the Terminus Systems very lawless and very dangerous, but hardly unexplored.

2. The Council races don't view humanity with contempt; certain individuals do however. Some Turians still hold a grudge over the First Contact War and the reparations that they were forced to pay, yes. Humanity also carries a stigma of being too aggressive and tends to be frowned upon for their rapid climb to power. Some are concerned (and rightfully) a little suspicious of humans. They have a fleet that rivals the Turians; if another conflict were to break out between the two, the consequences would be severe and reach many races and many systems. Furthermore, for those who know of it (and it isn't many), humans had conducted illegal AI research (not exactly the way to go around furthering trust).

3. Saren and the Geth are hardly mysterious. I'll give you the Collectors. I'd even give you the Reapers. But the first two...just no. I'm not going to type out the history of either for you, however.

4. Yes, the Council dismisses the Reapers. Technically. But the Council gives their Spectres authority to approach the mission however they deem necessary. They pretty much flat out tell Shepard that if he thinks the Reapers are the real threat, pursue that angle. As for actual help, you don’t mean like the Salarian STG unit on Virmire, do you? You know, the one the Council assigned to investigate Saren. If they used the 3rd Infiltration Regiment, it also stands to reason that other resources were also used. They just didn't produce any real leads.

5. Liara has a recording of Vigil? Yeah, I'm pretty sure that never happened. I used to run with Liara a lot before I switched to my dream team of Garrus and Wrex. I know Liara (if you take her to Ilos) wants to spend more time asking Vigil questions, but I'm pretty sure that's the extent of it.

6. Cerberus was hardly ignored. All you hear throughout the second game is "Evil Cerberus This" or "Evil Cerberus That." Meanwhile, Cerberus is trying to "play nice" with you because they need your help. I believe I covered this in more depth earlier in the thread (or in the other one). Because you can press them on the subject. Just not the Sole Survivor, which--I agree--was a little disappointing.

7. There's just about 20 sentient races in Mass Effect that we know of so far (and I seem to recall the devs stating that there are more). If you're counting only this current cyle and races that have been clearly named, you're correct. But only just barely. That'd give us Krogan, Quarians, Humans, Batarians, Elcor, Volus, Turians, Hanar, Vorcha, Asari, Drell, Collectors, Rachni, Keepers, Reapers, Salarians (and their offshoot, the Lystheni), Geth, Raloi. Expand into the other cycles and we'd hit 20 and pass it.

Crap. I've got to run to class, so I've got to cut things off here.

Stewart5
February 25th, 2010, 07:30 AM
I think your forgetting that where a tv series has carte blanche to insert and develop as much background as possible as part of the show, in these games they have to balance it with addictive, enjoyable gameplay too. you can't really have one without the other.
And you analogy of the time to play ME compared to watching a series is still flawed. Over the course of the first three TOS seasons, they not only had screen time, but also the time in between, to develop background.(Which, let's not forget, took time and was certainly not wholly achieved in the first series) And then they had the other series with all their seasons to develop a rich, full background over the years. ME as of yet has now.

DigiFluid
February 25th, 2010, 08:17 AM
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread

gotthammer
February 25th, 2010, 09:26 AM
I'm a gonna bump that one...

Hmm. Still no AvP here...that and maybe I should stop reading what people have to say about it as I'm starting to have 2nd thoughts. And Napoleon: TW came out...gah (is it worth it? It would be nice if the TW games had some 'RPG' element in it, esp. in regard to your 'Leader' and your generals).
BFBC2 is coming out soon, too. Hmm. :D

DigiFluid
February 25th, 2010, 09:41 AM
I'm a gonna bump that one...

Hmm. Still no AvP here...that and maybe I should stop reading what people have to say about it as I'm starting to have 2nd thoughts. And Napoleon: TW came out...gah (is it worth it? It would be nice if the TW games had some 'RPG' element in it, esp. in regard to your 'Leader' and your generals).
BFBC2 is coming out soon, too. Hmm. :D
NTW is fun, there's a lot of little improvements that TCA has made over ETW.

- they've expanded on the American Independence mini-campaigns for the Napoleonic campaigns. They're bigger and more detailed, and it takes 2 turns per month rather than 2 per year:
1) 1778-93 -- Tutorial
2) 1796-97 -- Italy
3) 1798-1800 -- Egypt
4) 1805-12 -- Europe
5) 1815/6/18 -- Waterloo
The Campaigns of the Coalition are set up just like the traditional main/imperial/grand campaigns of TW games past. At install, countries available are Austria, Great Britain, Prussia, and Russia.

- diplomacy has been streamlined somewhat, some of the options now include: joining wars, trade embargoes, and breaking alliances

- the spy/assassin/rake class has been very much streamlined into a single class. He goes into a settlement and after a turn "establishes spy networks", and from the bottom bar on the campaign map can be assigned to assassinate/sabotage building/sabotage army

- workers striking seems to have been made less annoying than it was in ETW

- generally it runs a whole lot more smoothly than ETW did. Which is nice on one hand, but a pain in the ass on the other because ETW is still so broken

Giantevilhead
February 25th, 2010, 03:57 PM
Let's review some of your facts then. In no particular order.

1. The Terminus Systems. For an unexplored place, it's pretty well inhabitated (and mapped) by many of the known races: Turians, Krogan, Asari, Humans, etc. It's also (supposed to be) populated by some minor species of which we haven't heard (or heard much of). It's a loose affiliation that doesn't adhere to Council authority. This makes the Terminus Systems very lawless and very dangerous, but hardly unexplored.

There's a difference between unexplored and uninhabited. I said that the Terminus system was unexplored not uninhabited. Notice how I made the comparison between the Terminus system and the Delphic Expanse. The Delphic Expanse wasn't uninhabited either. In fact, it was heavily populated by a ton of different races, however it was largely unexplored by Starfleet, just like how Terminus was largely unexplored by the Alliance.


2. The Council races don't view humanity with contempt; certain individuals do however. Some Turians still hold a grudge over the First Contact War and the reparations that they were forced to pay, yes. Humanity also carries a stigma of being too aggressive and tends to be frowned upon for their rapid climb to power. Some are concerned (and rightfully) a little suspicious of humans. They have a fleet that rivals the Turians; if another conflict were to break out between the two, the consequences would be severe and reach many races and many systems. Furthermore, for those who know of it (and it isn't many), humans had conducted illegal AI research (not exactly the way to go around furthering trust).

For someone who claims to know a lot about ME, you sure are getting a lot of facts wrong. The Alliance fleet isn't even close to the power of Turians. The Turians were simply overconfident during the first contact war. They thought that they had defeated most of the human forces when they bombarded the Shanxi colony. They didn't know about earth so they were surprised when the Second Fleet came to liberate Shanxi. If the Council hadn't stepped in to end the conflict the Turians would have wiped the humans out. Even during the events of the games, humans still had the weakest fleet. The Alliance only has 8 dreadnoughts while the Salarians have 16, the Asari have 20, and the Turians have the most with 39.

As for the Council viewing humanity with contempt, I was making a comparison to how the Vulcans viewed the humans in Star Trek. The Council's view of the Alliance is very similar to the Vulcan's view of the humans.


3. Saren and the Geth are hardly mysterious. I'll give you the Collectors. I'd even give you the Reapers. But the first two...just no. I'm not going to type out the history of either for you, however.

How were the Geth not mysterious? Their appearance in ME1 was the first time they came out of the Perseus Veil in 300 years. As for Saren, he's a freakin' Spectre! Spectres are the Special Tactics and Reconnaissance branch of the Citadel. Saying that Spectres aren't mysterious is like saying that Delta Force or the CIA aren't mysterious.


4. Yes, the Council dismisses the Reapers. Technically. But the Council gives their Spectres authority to approach the mission however they deem necessary. They pretty much flat out tell Shepard that if he thinks the Reapers are the real threat, pursue that angle. As for actual help, you don’t mean like the Salarian STG unit on Virmire, do you? You know, the one the Council assigned to investigate Saren. If they used the 3rd Infiltration Regiment, it also stands to reason that other resources were also used. They just didn't produce any real leads.

Did you not notice that I was making a comparison with Star Trek? The Vulcans sort of helped Archer too but it was up to the Enterprise and Starfleet to do most of the heavy lifting in dealing with the major threats. It's the same thing with the Council, they kind of help but it was Shepard and the Alliance that had to make the greatest sacrifices.


5. Liara has a recording of Vigil? Yeah, I'm pretty sure that never happened. I used to run with Liara a lot before I switched to my dream team of Garrus and Wrex. I know Liara (if you take her to Ilos) wants to spend more time asking Vigil questions, but I'm pretty sure that's the extent of it.

I may have been mistaken about that. However, it is ridiculous that the Council would be willing to dismiss the Reaper threat since the Asari can mind meld.


6. Cerberus was hardly ignored. All you hear throughout the second game is "Evil Cerberus This" or "Evil Cerberus That." Meanwhile, Cerberus is trying to "play nice" with you because they need your help. I believe I covered this in more depth earlier in the thread (or in the other one). Because you can press them on the subject. Just not the Sole Survivor, which--I agree--was a little disappointing.

Read my posts carefully, this is what I said,


Then there's the problem of how most of Cerberus's atrocities from the first game were ignored. Heck, if you picked the sole survivor background, the event that you survived was a Thresher Maw attack caused by Cerberus but that was never brought up.

Let's look at all the bad things Cerberus did in the first game,
Akuze - Thresher Maw attack
Sigma 23 - overrun by Rachni
Listening Post Theta - overrun by Rachni
Chasca - colony turned into husks
Admiral Kahoku - died of "natural causes" after trying to investigate Cerberus

These are just the ones that I remember. They get summarily dismissed or minimized in the second game. All you get is an e-mail from Toombs and some flimsy excuse from Miranda about how Cerberus never intended for bad things to happen when they studied the Rachni and Thorian creepers.


7. There's just about 20 sentient races in Mass Effect that we know of so far (and I seem to recall the devs stating that there are more). If you're counting only this current cyle and races that have been clearly named, you're correct. But only just barely. That'd give us Krogan, Quarians, Humans, Batarians, Elcor, Volus, Turians, Hanar, Vorcha, Asari, Drell, Collectors, Rachni, Keepers, Reapers, Salarians (and their offshoot, the Lystheni), Geth, Raloi. Expand into the other cycles and we'd hit 20 and pass it.

Please read my post carefully.


Mass Effect is certainly more detailed compared to movies but not compared to television shows. There are less than 20 sentient races in Mass Effect and only the Krogan, Quarian, and humans have been explored in detail. Heck, we know more about the Changelings, a race that's supposed to be secretive and mysterious, than the Batarians, Elcor, Volus, Turians, Hanar, Vorcha, and Salarians.

My point was that even though there are so few named sentient races in ME, only a three of them have really been thoroughly explored. At least with Star Trek, they have an excuse for not exploring most of their races since there are hundreds of them.

Also, Keepers aren't sentient.

Giantevilhead
February 25th, 2010, 04:19 PM
Well the age is kinda important, the point being that the Mass Effect Universe in its current form is more detailed and richer than if it was a tv series and had been on for 2 or 3 seasons. And frankly off the top of my head the codexs in Mass Effect 2 had reams of text, on the subject of the races in the universe.

If you're counting the amount of time a series has to develop then if Mass Effect was a television show, it would be in its fifth season. Mass Effect was announced in 2005. It's been in development for even longer. It took them over 5 years to make ME1 and ME2, a story that is the equivalent of two or three full seasons of a television show. If ME3 comes out next year then with the time it takes to make the Mass Effect trilogy, you could make a 7 to 8 season television show.


I think your forgetting that where a tv series has carte blanche to insert and develop as much background as possible as part of the show, in these games they have to balance it with addictive, enjoyable gameplay too. you can't really have one without the other.

You're forgetting that TV shows have to deal with a lot more crap from network executives, advertisers, and censors. It's certainly true that some video game developers have to deal with that too but Bioware has been lucky and they've been left alone to do their thing even after EA purchased them.

In the case of Star Trek, you have to remember that it was made in the 60's. A lot of the messages in the show may seem quaint by today's standards but they were pretty ballsy back then. The very fact that the show had a multi-racial cast was a big deal. There was also an obvious decline in quality in the third season when the network executives had more say in the production of the show.


And you analogy of the time to play ME compared to watching a series is still flawed. Over the course of the first three TOS seasons, they not only had screen time, but also the time in between, to develop background.(Which, let's not forget, took time and was certainly not wholly achieved in the first series) And then they had the other series with all their seasons to develop a rich, full background over the years. ME as of yet has now.

Mass Effect does that too. There are three ME books and a comic book series out.

DigiFluid
February 25th, 2010, 04:57 PM
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread


http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread


http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread

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http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread

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http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread

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http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73160-Mass-Effect-universe-discussion-thread

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 25th, 2010, 04:59 PM
We tried that already. It doesn't seem to be working on him :D

gotthammer
February 25th, 2010, 05:24 PM
NTW is fun, there's a lot of little improvements that TCA has made over ETW.

- they've expanded on the American Independence mini-campaigns for the Napoleonic campaigns. They're bigger and more detailed, and it takes 2 turns per month rather than 2 per year:
1) 1778-93 -- Tutorial
2) 1796-97 -- Italy
3) 1798-1800 -- Egypt
4) 1805-12 -- Europe
5) 1815/6/18 -- Waterloo
The Campaigns of the Coalition are set up just like the traditional main/imperial/grand campaigns of TW games past. At install, countries available are Austria, Great Britain, Prussia, and Russia.

- diplomacy has been streamlined somewhat, some of the options now include: joining wars, trade embargoes, and breaking alliances

- the spy/assassin/rake class has been very much streamlined into a single class. He goes into a settlement and after a turn "establishes spy networks", and from the bottom bar on the campaign map can be assigned to assassinate/sabotage building/sabotage army

- workers striking seems to have been made less annoying than it was in ETW

- generally it runs a whole lot more smoothly than ETW did. Which is nice on one hand, but a pain in the ass on the other because ETW is still so broken

GAh. Nuts. May have to shell out cash for N:TW after all. :( :P :D
Yeah. I wanted to like E:TW, but it felt...'off' and it was quite buggy: nothing ruins a game more than not being able to end a turn...

Decided to download the 'Return to Ostagar' DLC for Dragon Age: Origins today (still haven't gotten to the DLC, yet, as I decided to start w/ a new character: another Human Noble warrior, but w/ sword & board, this time). I was kinda getting bored w/ my ME1 playthrough (2nd playthrough w/ a new character, then a 3rd playthrough which will then carry over to ME2), so it's back to DA:O for a bit. :D

Oranos
February 25th, 2010, 05:28 PM
We tried that already. It doesn't seem to be working on him :D

I'll just carry the conversation over there. If he wants to continue it there, fine. If not, that's fine too.

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 25th, 2010, 05:37 PM
I'll just carry the conversation over there. If he wants to continue it there, fine. If not, that's fine too.

Well its a good discussion. I may completely disagree with Giantevilhead, but it's good to debate, glad in some ways to have a dissenting voice, makes it more fun, otherwise we might just end up sitting around patting each other on the back so to speak. :D

Oranos
February 25th, 2010, 06:32 PM
Well its a good discussion. I may completely disagree with Giantevilhead, but it's good to debate, glad in some ways to have a dissenting voice, makes it more fun, otherwise we might just end up sitting around patting each other on the back so to speak. :D

We could have made them hard pats, you know. :p

But conversation carried over. The ball is in his court now.

Giantevilhead
February 25th, 2010, 08:27 PM
Well its a good discussion. I may completely disagree with Giantevilhead, but it's good to debate, glad in some ways to have a dissenting voice, makes it more fun, otherwise we might just end up sitting around patting each other on the back so to speak. :D

Then give an example of a sci-fi game that has advanced the sci-fi genre as much as games like Wizardry and Planescape: Torment have advanced the fantasy genre.

There is a clear distinction here. A lot of the innovations and creativity in the entire genre of fantasy comes in the form of computer and video games, and it's been that way for quite a while now. While there are some great sci-fi games out there, they're still treading old grounds. They might be making innovations to games but not to sci-fi. I have yet to see a sci-fi video game series that's as revolutionary, creative or just plane weird as something like the Wizardry series. Oddworld certainly came close but it's not quite there.

Coela Bellatore
February 25th, 2010, 08:50 PM
Then give an example of a sci-fi game that has advanced the sci-fi genre as much as games like Wizardry and Planescape: Torment have advanced the fantasy genre.

There is a clear distinction here. A lot of the innovations and creativity in the entire genre of fantasy comes in the form of computer and video games, and it's been that way for quite a while now. While there are some great sci-fi games out there, they're still treading old grounds. They might be making innovations to games but not to sci-fi. I have yet to see a sci-fi video game series that's as revolutionary, creative or just plane weird as something like the Wizardry series. Oddworld certainly came close but it's not quite there.

Fallout. 'Nuff said.

rlr149
February 26th, 2010, 12:43 PM
not to change the talking point but supreme commander 2 demo is available on steam, no its not particularly groundbreaking story wise................... but it is a good game.:cool:

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 26th, 2010, 12:56 PM
not to change the talking point but supreme commander 2 demo is available on steam, no its not particularly groundbreaking story wise................... but it is a good game.:cool:

Excellent. And let's not forget those staple scifi games that may not have been groundbreaking, but have provided with plenty of epic scifi action and stories over the years, more often than films. Stuff like Halo, Command and Conquer, Supreme Commander and FEAR might not be Shakespeare but they can be extremely entertaining and often have just as good a story as your average Hollywood scifi film.

Oranos
February 26th, 2010, 01:13 PM
Excellent. And let's not forget those staple scifi games that may not have been groundbreaking, but have provided with plenty of epic scifi action and stories over the years, more often than films. Stuff like Halo, Command and Conquer, Supreme Commander and FEAR might not be Shakespeare but they can be extremely entertaining and often have just as good a story as your average Hollywood scifi film.

Ah yes, FEAR. I have a certain fondness for that game. And I'm not sure why I like it so much. Maybe it's the combat AI.

Giantevilhead
February 26th, 2010, 01:29 PM
Fallout. 'Nuff said.

Even though Fallout was developed by Black Isle and it's a great game, it's not even close to the level of Planescape: Torment. Fallout was certainly very innovative in terms of gameplay but not in its setting or story.

gotthammer
February 26th, 2010, 01:42 PM
Even though Fallout was developed by Black Isle and it's a great game, it's not even close to the level of Planescape: Torment. Fallout was certainly very innovative in terms of gameplay but not in its setting or story.

I actually liked Fallout 2 the best, as far as that series is concerned. *shrugs*
As for Planescape: Torment, I missed out on that one (that and I was never really fond of the 'Planes' as a setting...which is probably why I skipped on that one back then).
Not sure what I can point to in terms of innovation as far as RPGs are concerned. While I enjoyed BW's newest games, DA:O & ME2, I do agree that they weren't that 'innovative' (doesn't make them any less fun/awesome, tho'. IMHO, as long as 'everything workes/jives'...it doesn't really have to be 'innovative' or 'groundbreaking').
I kinda have fond memories of Arcanum by Troika, tho'. Nothing really groundbreaking, but CRPGs need more Steampunk. :D

How about Darklands? That was a rather cool 'sandbox' RPG. :D

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 26th, 2010, 03:34 PM
Ah yes, FEAR. I have a certain fondness for that game. And I'm not sure why I like it so much. Maybe it's the combat AI.

Yeah the FEAR games are good. Expansions not so much. I think their AI has to be some of the best and the horror's pretty good as well.


Even though Fallout was developed by Black Isle and it's a great game, it's not even close to the level of Planescape: Torment. Fallout was certainly very innovative in terms of gameplay but not in its setting or story.

While the whole post nuclear world is hardly original what sets the Fallout games apart is that the world before was a crazy future world based on what people in the 50's thought the future would be like (which is why you get 50's style nuclear cars and the like). Can't think of many books, tv shows or movies that have settings like that.

Giantevilhead
February 26th, 2010, 05:44 PM
I actually liked Fallout 2 the best, as far as that series is concerned. *shrugs*
As for Planescape: Torment, I missed out on that one (that and I was never really fond of the 'Planes' as a setting...which is probably why I skipped on that one back then).
Not sure what I can point to in terms of innovation as far as RPGs are concerned. While I enjoyed BW's newest games, DA:O & ME2, I do agree that they weren't that 'innovative' (doesn't make them any less fun/awesome, tho'. IMHO, as long as 'everything workes/jives'...it doesn't really have to be 'innovative' or 'groundbreaking').
I kinda have fond memories of Arcanum by Troika, tho'. Nothing really groundbreaking, but CRPGs need more Steampunk. :D

How about Darklands? That was a rather cool 'sandbox' RPG. :D

In Planescape: Torment, you play as The Nameless One, an immortal amnesiac trying to discover his identity. As you progress through the story, you find that the reason why The Nameless One can't remember anything is because he has a chance to lose his memories every time you die. As a result, The Nameless One has actually lived thousands of lifetimes as completely different people since he adopts a new personality every time he loses his memories. Unfortunately, every time The Nameless One dies, the chances of him forgetting everything increases. Eventually, he won't be able to remember anything and he'll never be able to recover his lost identity. The main goal of the game is to discover why The Nameless One became immortal and to find a way to regain his mortality so that he can die before his mind degenerates completely.


While the whole post nuclear world is hardly original what sets the Fallout games apart is that the world before was a crazy future world based on what people in the 50's thought the future would be like (which is why you get 50's style nuclear cars and the like). Can't think of many books, tv shows or movies that have settings like that.

The whole retro-futuristic theme is pretty common in comics and cartoons. Astro Boy, The Big Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot, and Batman: The Animated Series are good examples.

Stewart5
February 27th, 2010, 12:25 AM
Ah yes, FEAR. I have a certain fondness for that game. And I'm not sure why I like it so much. Maybe it's the combat AI.

FEAR was AWESOME!!!!!!!!! I loved it. The AI was smart, and I actually found some genuine "scream like a girl and empty your clip into the wall" moments. Play the game after dark, curtains/blinds closed and with no music or anything. Terrifying..........:eek:

The Mighty 6 platoon
February 27th, 2010, 04:43 AM
The whole retro-futuristic theme is pretty common in comics and cartoons. Astro Boy, The Big Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot, and Batman: The Animated Series are good examples.

But it's not just retro futurism, the Fallout world was literally as the 50's saw it, which included things like rampant anti communism and emphasis on SCIENCE! rather than science.